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Paul, if you installed the update already and did the same with Vista SP1, you are much more brave than I. Before I update, I wait until it's proven stable, so not to bork my computer. Read Will Smith's ordeal with Vista 64 in MaximumPC this month. It looks as if he spent a great deal of time on it. Mac OS 10.5.2 seems risky until proven otherwise as it is a huge update. Also, I always use the combo installer. It is a 343MB file. My hats off to you for being so brave.

I'm not sure if it's brave or stupid, but I have to test these things, so what the heck. So far so good.

lol, well this review was pretty much what I expected to read here...Paul manages to find some way to pan the OS X patch...now Leopard is finally "out of beta!"

So that must mean Vista users are still waiting for SP1 to do the same for them!

Let's see, it hasn't been released to the general public yet, and Microsoft is still having some driver issues with it, even though they claim SP1 is final and good to go. Even though they knew about the problems before releasing it to their volume license enterprise customers, as Paul's own articles note right here:

www.windowsitpro.com/.../98203.html

Man I love the spin on this blog; it really does make for good laughs. Anyway, here's to 2008 REALLY being the year that BOTH these OS's get off the ground.

SP2 for XP went great a few years back [actually, it updated flawlessly for all of us and everything worked fine], but I remember two large Mac OS updates that were pulled because of a lot of issues, then reissued a day or so later. Fortunately, I was on call and missed one and was sick for the other. That's when I started to wait. Also,  I first update a copy of my Mac OS volume before update my main drive. Life's too short for me.

Sir_timbit01, so I'm glad you find it funny, but seriously: If you have been upgrading to new OS X versions as soon as they come out, you've surely noticed that every single release is followed by a series of massive patches, at least one of which always adds features that Apple could/should have had in the initial release. See, this should be funny, but it's not: Apple never does a proper beta test. They just hit developers.

Pingback from  ReneRitchie.net   » Thurrott’ling the Truth 1 - Leopard / Vista

Paul is right.  Although each Tuesday (or is it Wednesday I can't remember) morning my PC will automatically downloads a few patches from Windows Updates, but it seems every time I switch on my iMac it gives me a list of sometimes in excess of 100mb+ of patches for the Mac OS and its bundled software which is really starting to annoy me.  

"you've surely noticed that every single release is followed by a series of massive patches, at least one of which always adds features that Apple could/should have had in the initial release."

Really?  Ever heard of prioritization?  You can always say something should have been done earlier, but in reality you can only do so much in every release.

Bottom line, Apple is continually improving and fixing things - and rolling out updates far more often than MS can do.  I see a system that's working well.   Too bad MS can't seem to do the same.

I think Paul is being fair here.  Apple's process doesn't cast a very wide net on the beta testing front compared with Microsoft's massive beta program.  I can't really say that Apple's OS releases are less reliable at 1.0 then Microsoft's since both companies do a ton of regular patching over the lifetime of their OS's.

I guess one could try to argue that because of Apple's hardware/software strategy, they have dramatically fewer configurations to support and therefore may not need the kind of massive beta program that must cost MS a fortune to monitor and maintain.

Still, there have been Apple releases that have had pretty unforgivable bugs in the release code, only to see a quick fix soon after release.  That's a fair criticism.  On the plus side, Apple seems to be very good at responding to the user base pretty quickly.  People act like Apple is this irrational dictatorship run by Steve Jobs, but they're obviously willing to change stuff that we don't like (stacks, transparent menu, etc).

the main problem is apple doesn't have the same beta cycle as windows. Most of those problems (for looks and stuff) are changed ahead of time. Vista had tone of visual complaints that were changed in the demands of people. Its just a different way of doing things, and what Paul means is that vista tends to do this before the product is out. Apple lets the people buy the os then do the tests. (its a natural apple thing. They are just a little more controlling when it comes to there software). not to say windows isn't.

Who copied who's headline? db.tidbits.com/.../9455

It takes Microsoft over a year to bring Vista's file copy up to XP speed, and OS X is just out of beta, pot, kettle and black spring to mind.

Well, this is clearly going to be hugely appreciated by the Mac users - but if we're comparing the release mechanism of Microsoft to Apple, I have to say I don't see how Microsoft are doing a better job.

Microsoft have allowed the perception of Vista to become one of a slow, buggy OS reminiscent of 'Me' - the reality is of course different, but shouldn't the beta programs allow them to pre-empt that, just as much as getting feedback for development purposes?

Apple meanwhile are to a certain extent guilty of not listening until it's too late, but the perception of the OS hasn't become one of a 'bad product' - now that may be because of the Apple zealot army, but I myself have both Macs and PCs at home - and my Leopard system does work perfectly well - yes the design changes seem odd, but the overall performance and stability of the OS doesn't give me cause to question.

On Vista - I do have cause to question.  Why can't my 3.2GHz PC play that simple music track without it going choppy?  Why can't I browse the network without it locking up?  Why does Windows Calendar crash every time I log on?  The list goes on and on.  They're all minor issues and ones I can explain and mostly understand - but with the yearning masses out there (coupled with a seemingly blood-thirsty tech media), it's gone down badly - Microsoft, with their extensive TAP, private and public beta testing, partner networks and developers - should have seen it coming.

10.5.2 will bolster the Leopard release - and the Mac 'community' (oh yes, and the zealot army too)- ahead of a Vista SP1 release that people seem to be straining to get their hands on - if Microsoft have managed things right, the news will be that SP1 is solid, and Vista will race away - but if the news is anything else, the fur will fly!

Stupid is using Vista. Even worse is publicly lauding it as a good OS.

Pingback from  Apple » re: Apple Takes Leopard out of Beta

Nevertheless, I have seen Mac OS updates getting pulled due to problems that the update caused, then re-released later, so the points about [lack of beta] testing seem to be true. That's why I wait and first update a copy to test it for a few days, before updating my main boot drive. I got burnt once when I updates to 10.4.10 and lost mounting of my external USB drive, but it worked fine on the old backup copy off 10.4.9 [Pro Tower quad 3GHz, 4GB RAM, 1TB RAID 0 and two spare internal 500GB drives, ATI 1900XT]

The fact that Apple does poor beta testing, releases guargantuan updates and fixes after the initial release, and otherwise snows users is completely irrelevant.  

Apple is cool.  Everything Apple does is cool.

Those issues only matter when Microsoft those them.  And then we should sue MS for anti-trust.

JamesNT

Another thing that bothers some of us is the forced obsolescence.  We all know that Macs last a long time, but new hardware gadgets [iPods] requires recent OS and recent OS upgrades require new hardware [computers]. Leopard requires at least an 800Mhz CPU, but there are apps that will fool the installer but making the pram look like it qualifies, and allowing the installer to work on older machines with slower CPU's, that have reportedly done fine running Leopard. The new iPod Touch requires at least OS 10.4.10. Why brag that our Macs run for years, but Apple tries to make you upgrade one way or another? I just doesn't seem very friendly to me.

Only infidels dare to question Apple's perfect OS releases and unmatched coolness. Apple will, after all, only do cool things, and Steve's halo is now shining so bright one needs to wear sunglasses for the next key note. It's that famous halo efect, you know.

Well I have to agree with Paul that Apple doesn't have beta testing program that deserves this name. But I have to disagree on the fact that Leopard 10.5.0 is dubbed a beta. All features advertised worked very well, the performance of the system (stability+speed+footprint) was at least on par with the latest Tiger release. The only things that were screwed up were the UI things: translucent menu and no hierarchical navigation in the stacks grid mode. Now I'm not saying that some people didn't encounter glitches with it, but all people around me who upgraded were very pleased with it, and that's at least 10 people.

I do agree with Dave here.  Leopard by-and-large has been very solid for me with one exception: Qmaster.  QMaster has been broken since Leopard's release and it's a serious problem for large video compression jobs.  

I know there have been issues with airport and some odds and ends, but Leopard's first day of release was functional, stable and an unqualified improvement over Tiger.  Back to my Mac is awesome, btw.  So is ichat screen sharing.

I really don't have enough experience with Vista to compare, but I can say that Leopard was not "beta-quality".  It was (and is) a quality release.

Well your site, and my subscription to Windows IT Pro has been getting thinner and thinner.  With less relevant material.

Your Windows FAN BOY attitude shines through with this post more than ever.  I almost fell out of my chair when I read "takes Leopard out of Beta".

Vista came out in December 2006/Jan 2007 and 100 million people (yeah right) paid for ALPHA CODE.  Not that many had a choice when buying a new PC, or did not know better.

Vista SP1...there is not one, well there is, its slower, has driver problems, wont be out for a few months after it went gold, cant be slipped streamed, well maybe a few can have it.  What a Joke.

Industry/User perception Vista = disaster stay away.  Leopard = Great OS with a few bugs for upgraders.  Perception of Leopard after 10.5.2 "Apple makes a great OS better, and shows MS how to Service Pack something in a timely manner".  Perception of Vista after Leopard 10.5.2....where can I sell my Vista notebook so I can get a Mac?

I have been using MS OS's since DOS 3.3.  I work all day on their server products, have ben for years now.  Vista was the OS that got me try a Mac/OS X.  Good luck with Vista/MS Paul.

You are like the Shawn Hanity/Rush Limbah of MS fanboyism.  Maybe you should download their POD cast's to your Zune, and gain a few pointers from them.

Lindy, he runs a Windows enthusiast site and is the news editor for a windows-focussed news website. What do you expect - him to worship Steve Jobs like the rest of the brainless hordes?

I love how it's now perfectly acceptable on the internet to worship Apple and all their products but if someone dares act the same way towards Microsoft (and in a much more mature manner I might add - less swearing and blatant company-bashing) they are labelled a heretic.

Paul runs a fair and balanced site - despite being a Windows enthusiast site it also gives mostly positive reviews to almost all the Apple products it looks at, which is more than you could ask for in the reverse situation (an Apple worship website giving a positive review to a Microsoft product? Doubt it somehow). So stop your whining.

wow paul, you really have an 'interesting' following...  

you really shouldn't pick on those apple programmers - they have nearly dozens of hardware configurations to deal with, while those lazy windows programmers have only thousands to worry about.  tisk tisk...

i was waiting for 10.5.2 for my macbook (which is running vista sp1via vmware fusion - nice app that is), but from what i've been reading over at the macrumors forums maybe that's a tad premature?

"Apple worship website giving a positive review to a Microsoft product? Doubt it somehow"

That's actually totally wrong. Most Mac oriented website have given great reviews of Office right from version 98 until 2004. Well Office 2008 is a bad start but they should fix things pretty quickly. MacBU of Microsoft is a Mac enthusiast team that make product that stand apart in the Microsoft family and they are a darling of the Mac press.

Leopard Beta... hahaha.  I guess it all depends on what you're comparing it against.  

Tiger was better than Vista.  Leopard is head and shoulders above... .0 or .2.  It doesn't matter.

Lindy and Jono, Paul asked the community if we wanted him  to continue posting about about when he moved the blog, and enough answered yes. He graciously posts for us Apple users, and some of us are cross platform of course. So thanks Paul. I owe you a beer and some valium. Don't take them together!

Doc