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Paul, nice chart. You might find the blog post at brandygalos.blogspot.com/.../apple-and-linux-in-proportion.html interesting.Among other things, it compares the percentage of Mac and Linux users to people who think the moon landing took place on a sound stage in Arizona.

You deserve a round of finest Boston brew for that one Paul....

Cheers.

Funny.  But the article does bring up an interesting point.  I agree that macs are generally sold to the upper % of spenders, but  don't think the opposite it true for linux.  I think that Windows still covers the low end up to the high end.  Mac steals a little of that high end business, but linux really just steals a small amount from all over the spectrum.  It isn't like Linux is the OS for poor people or anything like that.  Most average consumers dont even know linux exists.  Linux is for the tech savvy, the religious open sourcers, and the business trying to save a buck or two, and that group of users spans a far wider spectrum than simply "low end".

http://www.chipnit.com

That's some funny stuff right there.

Lies, damned Lies and Statistics.  :-)

Paul,

You and others use very honest stats to back up your arguments.  This is a case of no one being wrong because everybody isright.  Recently we have heard that the Asus PC is flying off the shelves, Mac laptops are being used by 40% of US Freshmen this year and that the Apple now has 14% of the American computer market.  You quite rightly point out that Windows has 96% of the world computer market.  Mac sales are mostly confined to places like the US, Canada, Western Europe and Australia and New Zealand.  Windows has almost all the market share in India and China although with right pricing for those markets, I wouldn't think profits would be impressive.

What is one supposed to make of this?

Stats are interesting.  Say you were a Martian and you took a peek at a formal dinner.  You would conclude that 100% of male earthlings wore dinner jackets (tuxedos to our mates across the pond).  Your observation would be correct, but your conclusion would be wrong.

Take for instance over that last 20 years I have had about 23 computers.  Now 20 were provided by work and were Windows computers while I have owned an Atari and two Macs - but because most of my computer work takes place at home about 90% of my work was done on the Macs.  Also I chose to buy the Atari and the Macs while some unseen person decided that I should use Windows.  Looking at the bare data would give you a very different idea from the way that I work and the choices regarding computers that I have made.

Interestingly enough in the last couple of years our IT guys have wanted to go over to Linux, but Senior management has vetoed the idea because they want to use the same OS as they use at home.

Data is marvellous but it depends on how you interpret it.  Take for example the BBC notoriously used the 3% figure of worldwide Mac use to justify not providing the iPlayer for MacUsers.  When they were asked what percentage of hits on their website came from MacUsers the shamefaced answer was 'about 30%'.  The BBC has now admitted that about 9% of Home Users in the UK use Macs and are now designing an iPlayer for Mac and Linux Users.  (The iPlayer is paid for by our television licence which is a type of tax and Mac and Linux  rather objected that public money was being used to give Microsoft an unfair commercial advantage.)

Until last week our University refused to support Mac or Linux Users with the excuse that they were only 3% of the market, but breakdowns showed that between 10 and 20% of all students at the university were using Macs and they now have changed their policy.

Is the 40% Freshmen figure relevant to you if you run a college computer shop in the US?  Yes  The 3% figure is irrelevant.

Is the 14% figure relevant if you are sales manager of a Computer Warehouse in the US? Yes.  The 3% figure is irrelevant.

Is your 3% figure relevant if you are trying to decide what resources to devote to providing drivers for a worldwide market.  Yes.  The other figures are not so relevant.

Basically you need to apply the statistics properly to see if they are relevant to your situation and for each situation it will be different.

As far as Linux beginning to dominate the Desktop, I am not sure where that one came from but they do seem to be making strong inroads with the low-cost laptop market.

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"they do seem to be making strong inroads with the low-cost laptop market."

if Everex and Walmart is any indication, then no, they are not.

Pingback from  Pond » Pond ?? re: It???s true: Windows is caught between Mac and Linux

Pingback from  Pond » Pond ?? Pond ?? re: It???s true: Windows is caught between Mac and…

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The 96% market share chart is a snapshot in time of a mature and saturated PC market that has no further growth potential, even for Microsoft.  Corporations, banks, and retail outlets are big users of Windows, but what can Microsoft possibly do to entice them to upgrade?  These users are well served with nothing fancier than DOS and they don't need to pay extra for eye-candy or GUI wizardry to meet their bottom line.

What the static chart doesn't represent is what's happening over time and how things are developing in the new non-PC markets like the consumer and mobile markets.  It doesn't capture the fact that OS X is installed in the iPhone or iPod Touch, two devices which are capturing increasing shares of existing markets or defining them.  Also, the chart doesn't capture the dynamic adoption by the younger generation of MacBooks over Windows-based laptops.  These are tomorrow's consumers and they're open-minded about Macs.

So, I don't see the the 96% purple swath remaining that large over too long a time.

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Numbers.  Everyone uses them for their BIAS, and Paul is the king of that.  His numbers are right for sure.  Years and years of MS market strong arming has led to this.

US numbers are probably more relevant here for a few reasons....

1.  Of the 16 people that come to this blog, probably 98.9% are US or UK.

2.  As someone noted China and India are 99% Windows.  Why because Windows is free there.  No one pays for it.  

3. I have XP on my work notebook, and XP on a kids PC that came with that PC.  My other computers are Mac's.  I am in IT and everyone I know that has XP probably did not pay for it.  They got it someplace, where I dont know or care.  MS knows this and pretty much if you are not selling illegal copies they dont care.  If fact Bill Gates was one quoted as saying that Windows is the most pirated software and he laughed about and made some comment about getting the money from them someday.  One can only assume he meant that once they are invested heavily they will make it harder and harder to pirate future versions and get money out of everyone.

4.  In Europe you are starting to see a real MS hate fest, and a Linux love fest.  Give it a few years and see what happens.

Windows dominates total world wide market share....that they do.  Looking at all other stats, and things are changing.  Apple's growth quarter over last years quarter is insane, and MS wish they had half of that growth.

As more and more apps move to web based, hosted...etc, Windows will loose its grip.  As more workers work from home via Citrix and other hosted application solutions, Windows will loose its grip.  When I work from home, Windows apps work just fine with a my Citrix client for OS X.

Just another bash Apple/Linux from our Winsupersite MS apologist to try to drum up reader #17

Pingback from  Pond » It’s true: Windows is caught between Mac and Linux

"What the static chart doesn't represent is what's happening over time and how things are developing in the new non-PC markets like the consumer and mobile markets"

@halesgarcia: That is not the purpose of the chart.  The article is about desktop OS's.  Having pointed that out, I'd also like to remind you that it doesn't take into account mobile juggernaut Windows Mobile or Blackberry for that matter either.

."I have XP on my work notebook, and XP on a kids PC that came with that PC.  My other computers are Mac's.  I am in IT and everyone I know that has XP probably did not pay for it.  They got it someplace, where I dont know or care. "

That last sentence right there said it all. Is you're point that  no one is 'buying' windows and that iBoi's lining up to pay $129 for a service pack indicate Mac is more dominant?

Apple Inc total net revenue is a fart in the wind compared to the Windows group alone at MS.

Marketshare is everything and thats why Microsoft won the OS wars.

"In Europe you are starting to see a real MS hate fest, and a Linux love fest.  Give it a few years and see what happens."

MS has been hated here since 98 and almost got broken up. I've been hearing about Linux making 'inroads' since then....you keep on waiting and stroking that might mouse but just don't hold your breath.

Weedmonk, my point is that people dont often choose Windows.  They get it forced on them at work, and with a new computers, or they pirate it.

I surely dont.  I use if for work on my work provided notebook, and I work on Windows servers at work.  At home, in the US I choose something different, and I am part of a growing trend in the US for sure.

At my place work, the adoption has Vista been shelved after extensive testing resulted in high cost of conversion for little to no gain.  Will XP be replaced with a non-windows OS?  Possibly but probably not by Linux or OS X, more like a think client/Citrix/Terminal Server/VDI solution.

Honestly I dont care what they do in Europe, I just know that extracting money from MS via European law is something of a sport over there.  Articles about German towns ditching Windows for Linux are popular as well.

Hey wait, not so fast Lindy.. That you hate Windows (or for that matter, anything Microsoft), is obvious maybe, but not understandable, but I am not going to sit and watch and say nothing when you say 99% of India are pirates.. Now have you ever been to India, or seen that 99% of them use pirated Windows? I am from India, and absolutely object to your utterly pathetic biased opinion. Who the hell gives you the right to say this I don't know. I think it is you who are using numbers for Bias now..

Hate windows as you want (not that it will have any effect on me whatsoever) but don't you make any such unsolicited statements and expect to get away with it.. and since you are such a windows hater, why the hell are you here, reading a Blog meant for Windows users, anyway?

And yes, I usually wouldn't make a comment like this, but tell me what do you make out of a suggestion if someone tells you that all mac users are fanatics (like you) just because some vocal minority chooses to tarnish their image?

And yes, I chose to use Windows, because I find it good, and because I chose it over a Mac, not because someone forced me to use it.. Understand? And I wouldn't stoop down to your level to even acknowledge (leave aside replying) to some of the other comments of yours..

kanwaljit, you dont know that I hate Windows more than I know the true rate of software piracy in India.  I dont hate Windows, that would be stupid, its sofware.  I maintain a very large Enterprise Windows Server environment for a living.  I think Windows 2003/2008, XP, Exchange, and SQL are great products.

I think Vista, SMS, Virtual PC/Server, WHS, the Zune, and the 360 to name a few are total junk.  I think Office is now bloated as heck and way over priced.  I have either maintained or owned all of these including a Zune I won at Microsoft event.  My 360 has RROD'ed twice now.

What I dont like is Microsoft's focus on total domination, and its lack of innovation.  They focus on number of features vs what customers want.  They focus on a product having many lackluster, buggy features over a fewer high quality features.  Vista is a perfect example of this.  So in the 360.  As a console on paper the 360 has it all, HD, Xbox Live, downloadable content, many games, all of that is great until it RROD on you...multiple times.

A mac fanatic I am far from.  I have been reading Paul's site for a long time because I have worked so much with Windows over the years.  Yes I prefer Mac products at home, as I think that Apple is way more consumer oriented and not focussed on market domination.

As far as software piracy in India.  Honestly how many articles do I have to read that state that China and India are at 70-90% piracy rate, compared to 35% world wide and 25% in the US.  You are right its NOT 99% like I exaggerated......I would think you would get the exaggeration?????

A quick google of "software piracy in India" gave me many links......here are a few that speak to the India and China being the software piracy kings of the world...oh and I linked them specifically because they were written by your countrymen so the truth would not offend you coming from them.

www.thehindubusinessline.com/.../2006033003470400.htm

www.financialexpress.com/.../fe_full_story.php

"They focus on a product having many lackluster, buggy features over a fewer high quality features.  Vista is a perfect example of this."

I love it when mac fanatics say stuff like this but never back it up with examples. ;)

Ok Vista added DVD maker to go along with its Movie maker....have you tried using it?  I have its a great way to make a coasters.   Compared to iMovie/iDVD that came with my Mac its a joke.

Vista's new Movie Maker 6...would not see my Sony hard drive cam corder and download video off of it, like Windows Movie Maker 2, could with my Sony digital 8mm camcorder.  iMovie pulls video off of both camcorders perfectly fine......as in "it just works".

UAC, while its intent is good, compared to the same basic thing in OS X or say Ubuntu...its a nightmare of compatibility problems and a click fest.

Vista search, compared to spotlight, I have used both and I can say that spotlight is better.

Basic network file copy in Vista the reason I sold my new HP notebook and bought a Macbook last year.

Battery life on a Vista notebook compared to Leopard....sweet baby Jesus its night and day.

Vista boot times.  Vista search index always running.  Vista's basic requirement for 2gig's of RAM min.

I could go on if you would like?  

Great features on paper I am sure.  Put Joe User down in front of a Vista PC or a Leopard PC and do the things I have listed above and I feel confident that Joe will like the Leopard better.

Hey Paul,

I got something for ya.

(Scene opens on a black page with three guys standing infront of a white background. The usual P.C. guy is standing in his suit. The Mac guy is standing in his hoodie, t-shirt, and jeans. To the very left is a guy, with a Tux the Penguin t-shirt, jeans, a lighter hoodie, and his notebook.)

Mac: Hello, I'm a Mac.

PC: And I'm a P.C.... who are you?

Linux: I'm Linux. I'm having a hard time installing on this notebook.

PC: Really, we'll Windows Vista just got Service Pack one and already the press is finally saying some nice things about me.

Mac: Well thats great P.C. I also have some good news. Sales of Mac's are picking up.

PC: (Looking worried.) Really... and how much of the market place do you have?

Mac: 2.87% World Wide. But we're up to 6 % in the United States....(Cut off)

PC: (Bust out laughing....) 2 percent world wide? OH MY GOD!!! (Laughing so uncontrolably...)

Mac: PC I don't see what so funny.....

PC: (Laughing hysterically) 2%.... Do you, Do you know how many percentage points I"m up to? (Still laughing and chuckling...)

Mac: How much PC?

PC: 96%!!! Yes, in your face Mac! (Starts singing an interpolation of the Genesis does song.) Vista does! You can't out sells us with Macbooks! Vista does, Vista does, XP does, XP does!

Mac: Okay, PC you got me. You're way more popular than me.

PC: Its about time you admitted it. But don't feel bad. At least you have the best media player on the market.

Mac: Thanks, PC. Thats sweet of you. Say Linux, how much market share do you have?

Linux: Less than 1 percent. There are so many different copies of me and many PC manufactuers won't take a gamble on me. So we're forced to give away our copies. We also have a problem with notebooks.

PC: Well, just remember Mac, you're still doing way better than that guy...

(Screen flashes to logo.)

Microsoft. Your Passion, Our Potential.

Paul.... Thanks for sheading some light on the real story. Even with Mac's resurgence, they are still light years away from catching up. Linux isn't even close. For those who said on this blog that the 96 percent is a "snapshot", lets look at the bigger picture.

Since 1993, Microsoft has held the number one spot of leading market operating system. That "snapshot" has lasted for 15 YEARS! Now with Vista SP 1 fixing most of not all of the nagging issues with Vista, we'll start to see the mass adoption of Vista. Windows Seven is taking all the growing pains in Vista and taking a much smarter road. Smaller core equal less bloat. Hopefully, this approach will be applied other parts of Microsoft.

Maybe one day, someday in the future, Microsoft will eventually fall to the number 2 spot. But even with Intel Macs, Leopard, and Macbooks, they are still stuck in 2nd place. If you dive in deeper into the market share that Apple has world wide of about 7 percent of marketshare. If you break it down, 4.39 percent are using Macs with Intels. 3.07% of Mac users are holding on to the non-intel based Macs. That means approximately 40 percent of Mac users aren't adopting the new Apple machines. Even with Mac's growth, there is resistance to the Intel move. Not everything is sunshine and roses in the Mac's World.

As business begins the adoption in the next business cycle up to Vista and Server 2008, we'll see the mass migration of business machines to multicore computers with Vista SP1. The mass adoption will hit home as home users will update to keep pace with their business machines. Then we can all eagerly look foward to Windows Seven.

Snapshot in Time? You got to be freaking kidding me. 15 years and counting. Thats just pure domination. And Apple doesn't want the Microsoft monopoly? Look at what their doing with iTunes and iPod. Can we say digital monopoly?

Lindy:

Please do a little test for me: put up a bittorrent client on any of your machines (uTorrent or Azureus are fine) and load one of the popular (lots of peers and seeds) Windows Vista or Windows XP torrent out there (The Pirate Bay, BTMon will help you) and see where do most of the downloaders come from. In the Peer list I saw about 87% of the downloaders are from either the US or Canada (you can even see their IPs or hostnames from ISPs like Comcast or Rogers).

...and since you are there seek out the Leopard torrents as well. You will see that it is pirated like hell too. But that does not count in numbers, as statistics and market share information only count SOLD licenses, not pirate copies! If you add piracy rates to the actual market numbers MAC and Linux will fall to 0.01%, as every pirated copy of the OSX will have 1000 of Windows.

When viewed from a pirate's angle the real quality of each OS is revealed: if you look at the three platform as being free (for a pirate they are) they will still choose Windows by a very wide margin, as OSX is locked to a very expensive hardware platform (it is breakable, but does not worth the trouble) and Linux is hard to use for everyday work.

Do not forget that Microsoft Office (bloated or not) is still the most coveted piece of software (even on MACs). If I tried to move 100 word/excel users to OpenOffice in the next 6 month most of them would quit their jobs before accepting the alternative platform. That is MS quality.

Zsolt

Another note:

The remark about Linux eating Windows alive in the lower market segment was really funny. The Linux guys just don't get the fact that a copy of Linux installed on a new machine does not mean anyone is stealing money from MS. When an OEM sells a PC with Linux they are actually selling the hardware with a bigger profit (by putting any free OS on it), but in most cases those machines will end up with either pirated Windows copies or legal licenses with a delayed purchase.

Microsoft will rather not sell an OS with a very low end machine then to cut Windows prices and cannibalize their existing market revenue.

A cheap Dell/Acer (or whatever) notebook/system with Linux preinstalled, sold to a student or an IT worker will get a Windows license through academic or corporate licensing agreements. Even government institutions get better deals by buying very low cost hardware and then negotiating a MS Open Licensing contract.

OSX cutting in Windows market share on high end notebooks? Maybe... How many MAC users put XP/Vista on MacBooks and MacBook Pros? Even Apple commercials state that the MACs are actually the best Windows laptops out there.

kadarzsoft

I will pass on the torrent/pirate bay experience.  I am sure your scientific theory is more accurate than the dozen links to articles I saw about software piracy.

A woman in my same department at work went to China last year to visit her daughter.  Before she left she asked people what software they wanted, and she would get it for them, and they could pay her back.  Her daughter told her for the cost of a CD or DVD in China no less,  any software you wanted could be purchased at a store on the street.  That is the kind of piracy I am talking about, which does not exist in the US, or if it does its not in the open like in China.

I have no doubt that you can get anything you want via torrent, including Leopard, and from the US.  Of course copies of Leopard like you said, probably go to only Mac users or those who want to hac it to work on a PC, way to much work for Joe User.  Windows on the other hand can or at least can be attempted to be (Vista Ready) run on any PC hardware making it that much more of a pirate target.

Office is a very good product.  I think 2007 adds alot of features that 2003 did not have, but its slower over all.  95% of Office users probably wont use most of the features but some will.  I bet if you told those 100 people the could quit if they did not like Open Office and gave them some training they would use Open Office with out any fuss.  You would not need much training since the current version of Open Office is almost a clone of Office 2000 or 2003.  You of course would save 100 x whatever you paid for Office for those users.  

Hopefully it was not $399 per copy :)

"Ok Vista added DVD maker to go along with its Movie maker....have you tried using it?  I have its a great way to make a coasters.   Compared to iMovie/iDVD that came with my Mac its a joke."

Yes, actually, I have used DVD Maker a number of times, and although it is missing some good features that iDVD has, it is still a good and easy to use program. iMovie? You've gotta be kidding ;)

"Vista's new Movie Maker 6...would not see my Sony hard drive cam corder and download video off of it, like Windows Movie Maker 2, could with my Sony digital 8mm camcorder.  iMovie pulls video off of both camcorders perfectly fine......as in "it just works"."

More than likely a Sony issue than a Vista issue, I have a 4 year old Panasonic that I've used and it works just fine. The new movie maker is the first video editing software I've used that didn't make me pull my hair out! It was actually quite a pleasant experience (compared to older movie maker a Pinnacle Studios), but I'm guessing you haven't used it as much as me and are just assuming it's bad because you already hate Vista ;)

UAC, while its intent is good, compared to the same basic thing in OS X or say Ubuntu...its a nightmare of compatibility problems and a click fest.

One easy way to tell if someone is a valid Vista user! I swear, every time I hear a mac fanatic compare Vista's UAC to Mac's please-enter-password marathon I can't help but laugh! I mean, why the heck do I have to type my password to put a file I just created in the trash bin on a computer where I'm administrator? Vista has nothing like this, it prompts me only when I get into system configurations or installing new applications. Please!

"Vista search, compared to spotlight, I have used both and I can say that spotlight is better."

Let me guess? You used it on a 5 year old low end Sony or HP laptop against a new Mac Pro or Macbook Pro? I have used both too (and Quick Silver) and WDS is faster, more relevant, has fewer keystrokes/mouse clicks and is easier to use. It also searches more places than Spotlight ;)

"Basic network file copy in Vista the reason I sold my new HP notebook and bought a Macbook last year."

Your first mistake was buying an HP laptop... your second was buying the mac ;)

"Battery life on a Vista notebook compared to Leopard....sweet baby Jesus its night and day."

Have you heard of power saver mode?

"Vista boot times. "

My 1.9ghz Core Duo (not even Core 2) with 2GB of ram boots in 22 seconds flat. My Mac Pro has two (yes, two!) 2.66 Core 2! Duo's and takes about 55 seconds.

"Vista search index always running."

That's just untrue... it runs when you are idle

"Vista's basic requirement for 2gig's of RAM min."

Check your stats again, it requires 512MB. Premiums versions require 1. I'm running 2 (double) and it runs faster than my XP machine that has four times the min requirements for XP.

"I could go on if you would like?"

How about..... getting your facts straight and actually using Vista.... and run it on a decent piece of hardware. Heck, your mac will do just fine! Just stay away from HP laptops and Sony.... anything.... and you'll be fine. I am personally running Vista on a Toshiba Satellite series and prefer it over my Mac Pro with the two 2.66ghz and 5 (soon to be 7) GB of ram.

"Great features on paper I am sure.  Put Joe User down in front of a Vista PC or a Leopard"

What you may not realize is how many people have actually used Macs (and I do mean in the last 5 years) and can't stand them.

Pay for support when using an enterprise grade Linux environment (Red Hat or Suse), give money for training on those "free office apps" and count the degrading user productivity and already you are way over the MS licensing costs.

Piracy in China: you cannot sell $90 OS and $199 Office to a customer who does not earn that much in 4 month. The US (and MS) still takes hundreds of millions of dollars from China on the account of software licenses. That is the real success (for your economy, not my country's). Even a small city state or pacific island pays several millions of dollars to the US thanks to the MS domination.

One more comparison to (try to) end this debate: The local IT store I work with sells more copies of Windows in 3 days than the number of downloads from the Ubuntu ftp server in the country in a YEAR. And I am in Romania, where the piracy is said to be above slightly over 70% (and I also live in the 6th largest city).  Linux desktop sales are about 40% of the market (cheap hardware), but as I said earlier, the majority of those systems end up with Windows OS sooner or later through academic/corporate licensing.

"One easy way to tell if someone is a valid Vista user! I swear, every time I hear a mac fanatic compare Vista's UAC to Mac's please-enter-password marathon I can't help but laugh! I mean, why the heck do I have to type my password to put a file I just created in the trash bin on a computer where I'm administrator? Vista has nothing like this, it prompts me only when I get into system configurations or installing new applications. Please!"

Trust me I used Vista, from Beta 2 to August of 2007.  Both at work and at home.  The HP notbook was brand new as of 2007, and the first thing I did was wipe it clean killing all of the HP and pre-installed craplets.  It had a 2.0 core duo and 2gigs of ram.  Vista actually ran ok after tweaking it and several "performance updates" but I needed XP file copy speed for my job at the time and it was not there.  

HP notebooks, with a formated drive are the same Intel CPU/Graphics/chipset that is in a Dell, Toshiba, Apple or Lenova notebook, so I am not buying your "dont buy an HP" that is just plain wrong.  Same basic hardware, just different plastic.  I got it work as best as it could at the time and performance issues have everything to do with Vista, and nothing to do with HP.  It ended up running XP like a champ.

I used Movie Maker 2 for a very long time, not a bad at all for coming with the OS for free.  That and Sonic MyDVD were great together.  My new Sony Camera did not work with Vista because at the time Vista did not natively support hard drive based cam corders August of 2007.  Sony came out with a piece of software that would pull the video off of it then you could use Movie Maker Six.  So extra software so it could work.  That software would only work with Vista 32bit and at the time I had Vista 64bit.

UAC pops up about 50X more times that anything in OS X or Ubuntu.  It does not ask you for a password, unless your account does not have admin rights and then it does.  You can also set UAC via a GPO to prompt you for a password always, which is what some corporations are doing because its recommended by MS.  So I know UAC, because I used Vista.  At home I installed "Tweak UAC" so that it still added protection but bugged me way less.

"iMovie? You've gotta be kidding"

let's not forget the disaster that is the newest version!  ;)

"My new Sony Camera did not work with Vista because at the time Vista did not natively support hard drive based cam corders August of 2007"

Vista doesn't natively support any camcorder that doesn't use common tape formats, since other storage methods (i.e. hard drive or DVD) don't use DV format for recording.  Windows Vista only supports DV MPEG-2 import via the MSDV/1394 or UVC/USB class drivers.

"It does not ask you for a password, unless your account does not have admin rights and then it does."

That's a complete lie!  I pointed this out to a smarmy Bestbuy Mackie sales guy one day by creating an admin-level user account on a demo system, and it still popped up asking for a password for privilege escalation.  He was speechless after that.  Unfortunately you still aren't.

I am not so sure what recreational drug some people are using but, if you think that Apple is not selling any Macs or people are not using them take a look around a college lecture theatre or a major airport.  

losingcontext.com/.../look-at-them-apples.jpg

About 60% of computers go to Enterprise and other than the guy who approves the order no one who uses them has a say in what computer ends up on their desk.  Change comes to Enterprise very slowly.  It is like an oil tanker turning and if it ever turns away from Windows, Microsoft is in big trouble.

Microsoft also uses some pretty creative accounting.  Under Microsoft licensing a school in the UK that has 50 Macs and 50 Windows computers has to pay Microsoft for using 100 computers.  Great for M$ stats and profits but it does give a false result.  This conduct has been referred to the Office of Fair Trading here and schools have been advised not to take out any further contracts with Microsoft until the policy is changed either by Microsoft or the courts.

We have an occasional use for Windows here in the house too.  One of my daughter's needs to use Microsoft Publisher for a course at school and I need to use it occasionally to evaluate Windows Applications.  That hardly makes us a "Windows" household.

@Lindy I think there are a few Canadians here too.

@Waethorn I am not so sure that the WalMart test proves anything.  It may have to do with: the demographic that shops at WalMart, the lack of knowledge of the staff concerning Linux, the fact that Linux computers would do nothing to move all that costly software on the shelves beside them and finally WalMart chose a relatively unkown Linux distro for these computers.

@subzerohitman721 Problems with Linux notebooks, do you mean that they are selling faster than they can produce them.

www.guardian.co.uk/.../opensource.olpc

Giving away Linux software?????  You obviously don't understand the principles behind Free and Open Software (FOSS).  Enlighten yourself.

linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

I am writing now on my 2.0 Ghz 2001 Quicksilver.  Am I resistant to Intel Macs?  Not in the slightest, it just is that the Quicksilver does what I need it to do and it runs Leopard fine.  Try running Vista on one of your beige boxes built in 2001.  ROTFLMBO

A little lesson for the simple minded.  Jaguar, Panther, Tiger and Leopard are different versions of the Macintosh Operating System known as OS X.  Your system is known as Windows and you have several different versions of it  ME, 2000, XP and Vista (aka ME2).  Our minor upgrades and bug fixes are free and known as 10.4.2 or 10.5.2 and so on.  Yours are known as SP1 and SP2 and seem to be on the same time frame as the Parousia.

Try running Vista on one of your beige boxes built in 2001.

Well my case is from 2001, and the components are aging now, but the system is very fast and stable. End of story.

"I am not so sure that the WalMart test proves anything"

It proves exactly what I said it does:

That this: "they do seem to be making strong inroads with the low-cost laptop market." - isn't true.

Walmart is the be-all and end-all of low-cost consumer crap being brought to the masses.  The Everex gPC is considered a failure after Walmart is experiencing a massive return rate.  To put it in perspective, it's more than the suspected XBOX 360 failure rate (which is more than the actual amount, mind you).  Walmart considered it an "experiment", and has no plans to bring out another Linux-based PC in the future.  If Walmart can't successfully bring Linux to the masses, then there is no hope for it.

....and let's not go into the whole Eee PC thing.  If you wanna see Eee PC sales explode, just wait until they release it with XP.  Right now, many reviewers are complaining about the lack of features and uselessness of the Linux model.

"You obviously don't understand the principles behind Free and Open Software (FOSS)."

If you talk to Richard Stallman, the two are not equal, and don't belong in the same sentence together.

Waethorn..."That's a complete lie!  I pointed this out to a smarmy Bestbuy Mackie sales guy one day by creating an admin-level user account on a demo system, and it still popped up asking for a password for privilege escalation.  He was speechless after that.  Unfortunately you still aren't."

I just created a two extra accounts on my Vista Business VM, one with administrator rights the other as a standard user.  I logged in as each and started to do something that forces UAC..."create a new user".  While logged in as a the test user with admin rights I only got a prompt for UAC that I clicked through.  While logged in as a standard user UAC threw a prompt that gave me a list of admin users and wanted a password before it would continue.   This is just as I stated above if you are not an admin user you will get prompted for a password.  

windowsvistablog.com/.../accessible-uac-prompts.aspx

You can change via GPO this behavior for Admin users as well.  In Vista go to run or start search, type in gpedit.msc, ok through UAC, computer configuration, windows settings, security settings, local policies, security options, and near the bottom is "User Account Control: Behavior of the elevation prompt for administrators in Admin Approval Mode", you have three options one is to "provide credentials".

So I guess I am not "lying".  You are a very good student of Paul's using the "lying" tatic.  You need to be a better student of the way Microsoft products work as a fangirl I would think you would know this.

I would recomend, www.amazon.com/.../ref=pd_bbs_1

Take the certification test, impress your family and friends.

There are a few inaccuracies stated above when refuting the competing products. The average home user probably doesn't notice much difference between new computers. I used an old 1999 G4 with a CPU upgrade to wait for the Intel machines and sales show expansion, rather than avoidance. Some of us use older machines [in my basement while I'm lifting weights] and do not upgrade as they do not need to upgrade the computer or the OS. It is unfortunate that many Windows users will replace perfectly working hardware because they are not smart enough to reinstall XP when it becomes dog slow because of malware or viruses [from stupid web habits and DL's]. I have seen it in so many friends and coworkers. I encourage them to buy the OS reinstall CD or DVD when it is not included with the PC, but they also are too timid to try it to fix their issues.  On the other OS, Mac, most of my friends and coworkers just use the shipped OS and just don't upgrade. I was shocked that so many don't even update software. These are average users all over. I have found the latest iMovie to work great, but have found Vista to work great on my Mac Pro Tower as well as a 3 yr old custom box and a new Dell Dimension 410. Office for Windows and Mac is still our choice and I got 2004 and 2008 upgrade for $29 due to a MS rebate and upgrade program. 2007 Windows version works great on XP and Vista. All in all, most of your comments about an OS being better or worse are full of crap [inaccuracies]...most of you. Many of the complaints that you post are not correct.

I come here for news on both OS'es. Paul gives great info on all products, and it is usually better than most sites that I know of or find  by surfing. I even named a goldfish after him [it's a  Sarasa Comet, and is kinda chubby].

@DRWAM

Interesting that Apple sold two million Leopard 10.5 upgrades in the first weekend and Mac users are known to upgrade their SW pretty regularly.  See the link below and the stats from Steve Job's Keynote in Jan 08.   A lot more so than Windows Users  I think we must conclude  that you the Mac Users you know are a pretty eccentric bunch.

www.podtrac.com/.../crankygeeks.087.i.mp4

I do agree that Paul gives very good honest reviews but sometimes (as here) the Windows fanboy comes out

Your point about the Hardware though is absolutely spot on.  I have just ordered a Mac Pro Tower to replace my 2001 Quicksilver because I need to run both XP and Ubuntu natively.  The G4 is being turned into a Home Server.

@ Waethorn What an absolute load of tosh and piffle.  Linux is not breaking the Everex boxes and WalMart is continuing to sell them on-line.  As far as the Asus EeePC goes the CEO expects the breakdown to be 60/40 XP/Linux but don't forget that the Windows model comes with a larger hard drive and screen.   There will be a new Linux model with a larger HD later this year.  The reviews have been nothing short of super - from Ars Technica

'The Asus Eee PC offers outstanding value for Linux enthusiasts and good value for a mainstream audience. The laptop brazenly defies the conventional standards of portable computing and delivers extreme mobility at an appealing price.'

arstechnica.com/.../eee-pc-review.ars

@Isproc  My comment referred to the computer not the case.  :-))

Avro/halesgarcia,

Great posts.  I've had countless email conversations with Paul about his analysis-free obsession with worldwide marketshare. His response is always the same: "I just like marketshare and I like hard numbers".  Great.... why?  No answer.

This is a losing battle with Paul.  For whatever reason, he has ZERO interest in actual thought and analysis of the data points.  He's just got this rain-man like obsession with worldwide marketshare because it's in his view the most accurate number.

I agree that linux isn't making "strong in-roads" into any market I can see outside of servers.  This is Paul's main point in the text of his comment and so it's pretty fair, but the his whole fixation of global share as god is ridiculous and a clear bias on his part.  Linux is pretty damn devoid of any user-centric or UI innovation.  It's just copy-cat central (or I guess, de-central).

Marketshare debates are only relevant when you narrow the context to particular groups for which the "network effects" apply.  We're clearly seeing that, with the move to web-apps, there is less and less of a network effect in place between enterprise/business computers and home consumer purchases.  Apple's consumer marketshare is probably closer to it's retail share than it's worldwide share.  People no longer feel as strongly that  "I have a PC at work... I should have one at home too".

Why does this matter?  Because if you're a consumer, you care about different things than a business user (beyond internet access and office).  On the flip side, software developers don't care about the overall share.  They care about the share in the section of the market that would be interested in their product.

So, for example, Adobe doesn't care about Apple's 2% worldwide share since Apple has easily over 30% of the total content creation market (and as high as 80% is some segments).  

Most interestingly, Microsoft's Office sales marketshare apparently shows that Mac Office makes up to 20% of their revenue for all office sales.  That alone says that the Mac market is far more viable for users and valuable for developers than Paul's graph suggests.

Again, how many "point of sale" PC's are included in the worldwide share numbers?  How many corporate drone PC's that will never run anything other than Office?  How many are sold into vertical markets that use them for single-purpose functions (medicine, robotics, manufacturing)?  Tally up all those numbers and exclude them for the discussion of the Mac for normal home users.  Those sales are irrelevant to the home user who wants to browse the internet, chat, manage their home media and maybe play a game or two.

What's most interesting about the latest NPD numbers at retail is that the revenue growth numbers.  Apple's share of revenue is way higher then they're share of retail units.  Conversely, the PC market's unit growth is higher than it's revenue growth.

This all means that Apple's managing to be a more successful computer business with better long-term financials than the PC market which is on a margin-slicing spiral to commodity status.  Commodity margins leave little room for R&D and innovation, which makes the PC market's structure so unfortunate.  All of the margin in consolidated in Microsoft and Intel's pockets (more in MS).  So every PC maker is basically stuck waiting on these two companies to do ALL the innovation for them since they can't afford it.  This makes the PC market pretty comparable to the Mac market, accept the quality and reliability is inferior and the user satisfaction is dramatically lower (all facts backed up by Consumer Reports and PC Magazine year after year).

So Paul can drone on about world-wide share all he wants.  Anyone with half a brain and half an hour can discover how pointless it is as a metric of anything.

Here's some info that have more impact on people and the computer business than Paul's hobby horse stats:

Apple has out-lived IBM as a computer maker.  

Apple's revenue was just under half of Microsoft's revenue in 2007 (24 billion vs 51.1billion), despite having just under 3% of the worldwide PC share to Microsoft's 96%.

Apple's net income (profit) was 3.5 billion compared to Dell's 2.95 Billion in 2007.

@Lindy

my bad.  i thought you said OS X doesn't prompt for a password unless your account doesn't have admin rights.  in actuality, OS X prompts for a password EVERY TIME (even when you ARE an admin).  that was my point.

"WalMart is continuing to sell them on-line"

ONLY online, and then only until their current stock dries up.  they are discontinued in stores - where the vast majority of Walmart shoppers shop.

"Microsoft's Office sales marketshare apparently shows that Mac Office makes up to 20% of their revenue for all office sales.  That alone says that the Mac market is far more viable for users and valuable for developers than Paul's graph suggests."

No - it just proves the point that Apple should be selling OEM versions to customers instead.

"How many are sold into vertical markets that use them for single-purpose functions (medicine...."

funny you should ask that question....DRWAM, pay attention:

have you ever read the Apple terms of use?

"THE APPLE SOFTWARE IS NOT INTENDED FOR USE IN THE OPERATION OF NUCLEAR

FACILITIES, AIRCRAFT NAVIGATION OR COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS, AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL SYSTEMS, LIFE SUPPORT MACHINES OR OTHER EQUIPMENT IN WHICH THE FAILURE OF THE APPLE SOFTWARE COULD LEAD TO DEATH, PERSONAL INJURY, OR SEVERE PHYSICAL OR ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE"

So what happens if you have one of those data corruption bugs from the Leopard upgrade that corrupts patient data in a healthcare workspace, resulting in mixed up drug prescriptions, or incorrect surgical procedures? ;)

I like that last part too - if the Apple software fails, it could result in, among other things, "severe environmental damage"....so when a Mac that's incapable of running the latest, *SUPPORTED* OS because the previous software is no longer acceptable, and the system is therefore nothing but a mess of non-recyclable shiny plastic and various toxic substances in a landfill, I guess you just never had the right to use it in the first place!  :D

Waethorn,

More cherry picking and weird FUD, I see.

#1. How does Mac Office being 20% of overall Office sales NOT prove that there's tons of money to be made in developing Mac software?  It's sure making Microsoft a mint.  How does it somehow "just prove" that Apple should give up their inherent value proposition so that OEM's can ruin their superior service and support record with PC-style finger pointing on support issues?  I don't see any logic in your one-liner.

#2. You really don't want to play the EULA game.  This is pure FUD for purposes I can't understand aside from broad-sided Apple bashing.  What is your point exactly?  That Apple machines aren't certified as life support systems?  Ok.  I don't think the average Macbook or iMac buyer cares. I'm not sure how many consumers are looking for a nuclear weapons guidance system either.  In fact, this was my whole point.  There's a ton of PCs sold into vertical niches where the box runs one in-house, custom application and isn't available to the third party software market.  These systems don't count as relevant in the market share debate.... unless you want to argue that it's a lucrative business.  But Apple is clearly making plenty of money (more than Dell in fact) with their current products and strategy.

#3. Since Apple computers get much better resale and have far better long-term reliability, they're inherently less likely to end up in a landfill than the $399 plastic garbage pedaled by PC vendors.  My family has there fully working Macs over 7 years old still in use running Tiger.  I've sold every Mac on ebay at a great price before each upgrade (recently sold a 400mhz G4 system for $300 that I had bought on eBay for $400 two years ago).  Plus, Apple's early move away from CRTs was dramatically better for the environment.

I would like nothing more than to have an honest and lively debate, my friend.  But you don't seek to engage or understand.  This is just fun geek mental exercise for me, and it'd be more fun if there was genuine discussion.  Instead, you make if more like two people in bunkers lobbing grenades at each other.  LAME.

Waethorn, I have recently [within the past couple of weeks] posted in other topics here that Macs, are insignificant or irrelevant in medicine. All hardware and software used must be FDA approved, or at least used to be. That is why all the companies that previously used Macs, that I know of, no longer sell them and certainly why the above disclaimer applies. A funny story is that Toshiba Nuclear was bragging that they offered a 300MHz G3 with their gamma camera [bone scans, Nuclear cardiac, etc...] when they discontinued them two years prior, and moved on to the G4 line. When asked why not a G4, I was told of the FDA approval need and that keeping up with constant hardware changes at Apple was difficult, and that they were about to abandon the Mac. And they did. GE as of two years ago, claimed that they could only sell smaller hard drives in PACS as the larger ones were not FDA. there are so many great Windows based medical software products that it is mind boggling. however, the Windows medical cluod typically allows Macs to join in. We use a lot of Windows servers [we even have a 2000 server because of very old Medical Manager software for transcription] as well as MS JAVA based  although some Citrix exists too. the cloud allows us to get secured patient data, lab studies, charts and diagnostic imaging. Backup systems and data lines keep us well connected. It's pretty convenient. Exchange keeps us connected as well.

DRWAM,

Macs vs. PC silliness aside... That's very interesting.  It looks like, surprise surprise, our government regulators are operating at a snail's pace and keeping technological progress held back.  This is very upsetting to hear (not about Mac in medicine, because who cares so long as it works).

I recently met a medical tech consultant in an airport who was carrying around two Dell laptops.  One was his company laptop and the other was a client laptop that he had to bring because they wouldn't let him access their stuff on any other machine.  He saw my macbook pro and asked how I liked it.  I raved a little bit and then he explained that he was switching his business to macs because of the additional support costs of Vista and that it's a move he's hearing many companies in his network considering.

So I asked him about the healthcare cost situation and where tech could play a role.  He gave one example of where we're getting screwed that really stuck out which reminds me of your FDA issues.

He explained that we use this ICD-9 coding system for billing that is totally of date and causes countless problems with diagnosis and reimbursement because it's 30 years old and lacks codes for so many issues.

Meanwhile, apparently, the rest of the world is on ICD-10 which is the update from the '90s and makes things dramatically clearer.  So why is our country still running medical billing on a coding system from the Carter administration?  He said because Medicare and Medicaid are still on this old system and nobody wants to maintain two billing systems.  

Great.  So people get their claims rejected by insurance companies because of an out-dated system that's ripe for abuse thanks to the glacial pace of our government insurance.

How does this come back to this thread?  Well, I guess because it's a lesson about the problems with being a consumer innovator like Apple and wanting to do business with governments and enterprises.  Their pace and IT requirements make innovation basically impossible.  And since they're looking for the cheapest box they can buy, they aren't very profitable businesses to sell hardware into, hence the new focus on the consumer by Dell and HP.

I could imagine linux making serious inroads into some of these vertical markets since they're strictly using the OS as a platform for one or two applications.  Kiosk-style systems would probably serve many of these markets better, though what the hell do I know.

John, good points. Insurance agencies jump on the ICD problem to take advantage and denied payment. An example is DXA scan, for osteoporosis. The code was changed and reimbursement took a sharp decline, below cost, done by the CMS [Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services]. Third party payers/ insurance companies have contracts with us based on these codes and started denying payment, even though it was previously negotiated for a price under a different code. The exam stayed the same, but the code was changed. that's all, and they are still trying to screw us. The CMS just dropped reimbursement for PET/CT scans for body imaging [for cancer]. A study that takes up to 40 minutes, covers the entire body and has over 1,100 images. However, they INCREASED the reimbursement for cardiac PET, which covers only the heart using the same scanner and technique, takes about 15 minutes, and has about 50 to 150 images to interpret. It now gets more money than body PET, This is not a unique reimbursement problem. WTF are they thinking? This and malpractice issues have forced many imaging centers and doctors out of business or to relocate to places that are more doctor and less lawyer friendly. The trial liars, I mean lawyers lie to the public stating that tort reform does not help, but it is all BS. Now, there are many counties [not cities, buut counties] with neurosurgeons and OB docs.  Between lawyers and insurance companies,medicine is going down the toilet. Insurance profits are sky high, but yet they keep trying to decrease reimbursement to make more money, not lower cost of health coverage. And denying services is a game that they win, since it becomes too costly to keep pursuing denied claims. A big game is to per-certify a study, like an MRI, then deny payment. They have a disclaimer on the form that pre-certification does not insure payment. Then why the hell are they pre-certifying it? I could go on, but I am wasting everybody's blog, so sorry. I am just thankful that my Mac allows me to access the medical cloud. I still need windows to look at images. It is browser based and will not work on a Mac. Bummer.

" I don't see any logic in your one-liner."

Obviously.

My point is that Apple is an OEM.  They should sell Office 2008 as an OEM version.  OEM versions are preinstalled and supported by the OEM itself, not the software publisher.  Without software publisher support, OEM versions of software cost far less than retail versions, and Microsoft offered it to Apple that way, but they flat-out refused to sell it that way, even though it's the highest selling OS X application on the planet.  They'd rather gouge customers by selling only retail versions.  Remember that it's not just Microsoft's software, but the markup on a higher price = higher profit for the reseller too.  Too bad - it's also one of the most telling reasons why cost-conscious customers won't by a Mac.

"But Apple is clearly making plenty of money (more than Dell in fact) with their current products and strategy."

Ya, by gouging customers.  I refer you to my previous statement.

"Since Apple computers get much better resale and have far better long-term reliability"

Please provide proof.  Last time I checked, there's only 4 major notebook makers on the planet - Quanta, Clevo, Compal, and ASmobile, of which no less than 2 of them have previously built laptops for Dell, HP, Lenovo, as well as your precious Apple, not to mention *ME*.  Yes, I sell systems made by the same ODM as all the other big name brands.  So I guess I can claim that systems I sell are at least as reliable as any major brand name (I don't though - I've seen too many name brands, INCLUDING Mac's, fail before 3 years are up, that I include a 3-year warranty in every system I sell).

"Exchange keeps us connected as well."

Please tell me you're not using Blackberry's....What a waste of money!  Not only does it go through an unreliable central NOC, but you also have to pay for Blackberry Enterprise Server, JUST to connect Exchange with the devices.  Windows Mobile devices are the easiest devices to configure on a properly-configured domain - just buy them for each user and get them to cable-sync them once to their workstation.  Done, and done.  Additional configuration can be controlled via Group Policy in AD by your IT staff.  Windows Mobile - for when "Direct Push" means "*DIRECT* Push" (TM).

"Apple's early move away from CRTs was dramatically better for the environment."

Sorry, but that's completely wrong!  Just ask Greenpeace about that - Apple's contracted factories have been judged as some of the worst for the environment....and let's not get into the whole disposable iPod thing....

Lindy, I think you are making everything up! One day while working with OS X 10.4 a few weeks ago I swear I typed my password in more times that day than I ever have in Vista since I started using it in February (since July everyday).  I am an Admin on both the macs I use, how do you explain this?

That's February 2007 and July 2007.