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The Great Windows Collapse of 2011

I've gotten a lot email this week about the over-hyped Gartner report that said, essentially, that Windows is collapsing under its own weight. My reaction to this is two-fold. Before we get to that, here's a typical story about this report from ZD's Larry Dignan, who, I'm happy to report, is still with us. I'm making a number of comments in-line here. I have to, the apparent cluelessness of some of the Gartner comments here are to obvious to ignore...

Microsoft’s Windows juggernaut is collapsing as it tries to support 20 years of applications and becomes more complicated by the minute. Meanwhile, Windows has outgrown hardware and customers are pondering skipping Vista to wait for Windows 7. If Windows is going to remain relevant it will need radical changes.

That sobering outlook comes courtesy of Gartner analysts Michael Silver and Neil MacDonald. "Windows is too monolithic," says Silver.

... This despite the modular, componentized architecture that debuted in Windows Vista, was productized as Server Core in Windows Server 2008, and will become MinWin in Windows 7 ...

MacDonald argued that Windows may need multiple kernels to support increasing demands from customers and hardware makers. "One size doesn’t fit all," says MacDonald.

... This, despite the fact that Microsoft's product bifurcation strategy with Windows Vista has been roundly criticized by pundits, analysts, and users. By my count, there are almost 20 different versions of Windows Vista from which to choose right now ... I'd also point out that Microsoft offers Windows XP Home (for ULCPCs), Windows Embedded, Windows CE, Windows Mobile, Windows Vista, and Windows Server 2008, among several other variants, to satisfy different markets; most of these products have different kernels ...

.. And while we're at it, Gartner has no issue with Apple moving the Mac OS X kernel and basic OS to the iPhone, right? Right ...

But the big issue, of course, is backwards compatibility.

Gartner argues that Microsoft should use virtualization to solve the backward compatibility issue plaguing Windows.

Fair enough. I actually agree with that bit.

OK, here are my two points about this silliness.

1. I've been saying that Microsoft needs a new OS platform for several years. One bit of evidence of this is my April 2002 article, not so coyly titled, Maybe It's Time for a New Platform. This article was written in the wake of Microsoft chairman Bill Gates' US antitrust case testimony, in which he said that removing key middleware from Windows would force Microsoft to take that OS off the market. There are also references to the huge and unrelenting security issues facing XP back then, issues that people conveniently forget today in their efforts to rip Vista to shreds (despite the fact that it's never had any major security issues):

For the past decade, we've watched as Microsoft melded its legacy Windows products with NT technologies, and the latest Windows version, XP, is the ultimate combination of these two product families. XP's core is all NT, of course, since that platform provides the sophisticated low-level services needed in a modern operating system. But a lot of the fluff--the user interface work, Internet Explorer, the digital media functionality, and so on--came from outside the NT team. And it seems, sometimes, that in giving us the best of both worlds, Microsoft has stripped the soul from NT by layering it under mountains of other garbage.

I've written about the origins of NT before, and the ways in which this OS has been compromised over the years, such as when the then-buggy and unreliable IE was made a required component in order to install key server products, such as SQL Server or IIS. And with XP, it seems that the inmates have taken over the asylum in some ways, that the needs of consumers now outweigh the needs of the enterprise. NT, once the domain of businesses, developers, and other technical users, has been relegated to the barely mentioned underpinnings of a system designed to not crash while Johnny is blasting space aliens or mom is ordering groceries online. It's a sad state of affairs.

Maybe it's time for the company to walk away from Windows in the enterprise and work up a replacement that offers binary compatibility but none of the foundational problems. Remember, NT was a brand new world when it was being developed in the early 1990's, but back then, the big connectivity issue was LANMAN-based networking in small businesses, and security wasn't exactly one of the top three bullet items. Perhaps Microsoft needs to start thinking about another grass roots development project, one rooted in security, which could replace NT. It's been almost fifteen years since Dave Cutler sat down and wrote up the requirements for NT, and that product was supposed to offer MS-DOS, OS/2 and POSIX compatibility, support for RISC processors, and other technologies so far out of date today as to be almost ridiculous. You can only tack features on an existing product for so long before its time to start over from scratch.

I don't think Windows is going away any time soon, but it's possible now, more than ever, to find viable alternatives. If Microsoft is serious about embracing security, it may be time to let go of its Windows cash cow and start anew. XP might be secure enough for the home, but it's seems increasingly insufficient for the needs of the enterprise. And if the company doesn't start working on a solution now, it may find Windows collapsing under a mountain of security exploits and vulnerabilities far more damaging than any non-settling states plan.

The point here is simple: Gartner is just playing catch-up in this case. Now you can see why I never quote analysts. They're always late to the party.

2. Gartner is wrong. When I made the assertions quoted in the article above, Microsoft had just melded the insecure parts of the Windows 9x platform to underpinnings of the more secure NT platform and created Windows XP. As noted above, a lot of people conveniently forget today that XP's first year on the market was even more controversial than Vista's thanks to an unbelievable series of major security exploits. These exploits led directly to Microsoft's security initiative, the halting in development of Windows Vista/Windows Server 2008 (then called Longhorn), and the creation of Windows XP Service Pack 2, a major Windows release that Microsoft gave away to users in an unprecedented mea culpa.

Jump ahead to today and the world has changed. The Windows Vista platform, as an extension of that XP SP2 platform, is far more secure and, more important from an architectural standpoint, far more modular and componentized (read: less monolithic) than its predecessors. In fact, you can see how its becoming even more modular and componentized (and thus less monolithic) over time via technologies like image-based setup and deployment (Vista, 2006), Server Core (Windows Server 2008, 2008), and MinWin (expected Windows 7, 2010). So Windows is actually evolving over time from an architectural standpoint. And it is doing so by sacrificing backwards compatibility as little as possible. (Though, oddly, everyone is complaining about how poor a job Vista does in this regard.)

I'd also like to point out that every single one of the problems Gartner has with Windows is true of other desktop operating systems as well. Yes, Apple is more aggressive about killing off older technologies (read: Classic) but then that has also come back to bite them (read: Adobe can't make a 64-bit version of Photoshop on OS X for this very reason). One might argue--I will--that Microsoft's approach makes more sense for users and is more appropriate for a company that, incidentally, does have a user base that's over 1 billion users strong. It's easy to be aggressive when your audience is just a tiny fraction of that size.

All that said, it should be obvious for those who read this blog and this Web site, and listen to my podcast, that I feel that the future of computing is cloud computing. But again, that's not a unique problem for Windows, nor is something that's going to happen overnight. If anything, Microsoft's "Software + Services" initiative is, to me, the most logical model for moving the legacy computing world to the future. (It's like the x64 platform, when you think about it: One eye on the future, one eye on the past.) My point is that Microsoft, unlike say Apple, actually gets it when it comes to managing a humongous user base and is actively working to ensure both that its desktop OS makes sense as we move to this future and that its online services business is poised to capitalize on this change as well. I don't see anyone else doing this, and if anything Microsoft should be applauded for taking care of its users, advancing the Windows architecture in ways that make sense, and embracing a future computing model that, frankly, will one day spell the end of the products to which it owes all of its past successes.

As for Gartner and others of their ilk? Pfft. They'll collapse under the weight of their own pomposity by 2011. You read it here first.

Related: Mary Jo Foley has written a nice post about Gartner's report. She also touches on some of the modularity issues I raise here and notes too, that the Gartner report is a bunch of hype that [doesn't] provide any new insights or conclusions." Exactly. Put another way, this Gartner baloney was like an intelligence test for bloggers. No big surprise, but most of them failed miserably.

Comments

 

Waethorn said:

"Pingback from Airline Travel (and everyone else)"

just thought I'd get that out of the way....

April 12, 2008 12:19 PM
 

shark47 said:

The job of reports and analysts these days is not to report facts but to tell people what they want to hear. A story about Microsoft's and/or Windows's demise generates more buzz than a "boring" story about  the security changes in Vista. Like Jo Foley indicates, Microsoft is well aware of the problems with Windows and is taking (or at least attempting to take) steps to alleviate them. Silence is not an indication of lack of action.

April 12, 2008 12:30 PM
 

Airline Travel » The Great Windows Collapse of 2011 said:

Pingback from  Airline Travel » The Great Windows Collapse of 2011

April 12, 2008 12:49 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"Adobe can't make a 64-bit version of Photoshop on OS X for this very reason"

Someone please explain to Paul the difference between "can't" and "won't".

"They'll collapse under the weight of their own pomposity by 2011. You read it here first. "

Well, if anyone knows "pomposity", it's Paul.

BTW, love that header over the story in this site that advertises the "SupeSite" blog. What's a "SupeSite"?

www.winsupersite.com/.../windows_collapse_promo.jpg

April 12, 2008 2:04 PM
 

pthurrott said:

lotsamystuff: Adobe would have to completely re-architect Photoshop to make a 64-bit version for Mac OS X. I'm sure they will get around to it eventually.

Pomposity? Geesh.

Thanks for the spell check,

Paul

April 12, 2008 3:36 PM
 

Airline Travel ?? The Great Windows Collapse of 2011 | Airport Airline Team said:

Pingback from  Airline Travel ?? The Great Windows Collapse of 2011 | Airport Airline Team

April 12, 2008 3:42 PM
 

shark47 said:

"Thanks for the spell check"

Hey, he was just doing what he does best.

April 12, 2008 3:49 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"Someone please explain to Paul the difference between "can't" and "won't"."

The difference is that they "can't" build Photoshop 64-bit with the performance that they want because of OS X's use of hybrid 32/64-bit CPU mode (OS X runs a 32-bit kernel for simpler compatibility with 32-bit applications, at a loss of performance due to increased overhead) as opposed the Windows' native 64-bit operation (which requires the WOW64 emulation layer for 32-bit apps, which is less compatible with 32-bit apps, but allows the overlaying 64-bit OS to run at full steam).  

They also "won't" compromise on their current plans.

April 12, 2008 4:24 PM
 

brandon.pope said:

Regardless of what Adobe is planning to do with Photoshop (how did we go down that path) shark47 is right, these stories exist 85% of the time because people want them to exist.  People need and want to think someone is hanging on by a thread, and a story about the positive changes Microsoft is probably making in Redmond right now won't cut it.

April 12, 2008 4:59 PM
 

pthurrott said:

Waethorn: I'm right here. You can explain it. :)

I think too much is being made of the Photoshop bit for whatever that's worth. That's a minor side-story here.

April 12, 2008 6:37 PM
 

doon120 said:

You're right on the money about Gartner. It must have been a very slow tech week over there to even think about letting this nonsense out in public.  You would think a professional IT organization would have enough knowledge of the OS business to know that M$ went to extraordinary lengths to improve security, and it is a real success story.  Does anybody remember XP and the problems that generated the SPs?  M$ has done a good job of improving their products.  What's the complaint? 100% of everybody isn't happy? That's a "dog bites man" story.  If the issue is that M$ is innovating fast, okay.  So tell me, who is? Apple?  I own both, Apple took off when it switched to Intel, is that innovation or following suit? And guess what? Now I can run Windows!  The issue is the hardware cycle: chips and speed improvements are coming at a frenzied pace (thank you AMD) and the public isn't upgrading their hardware fast enough due to the the expense.  This is affecting Vista sales but what do you hear people say?  I'm getting XP on my new machine!  Remind me, what does a full install  of XP Pro cost?  How many billions in revenue will they have this year?  Windows is just fine, thank you.  if Gartner wanted to perform a public service they should tell everyone this: if you want Vista, you'll need to buy the hardware to run it correctly.  Gee, where have I heard that?  This is analysis?

April 12, 2008 7:36 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"You can explain it."

Thanks.

The thing here is that Adobe won't get the resulting software on OS X that they want.  Only Windows x64 allows that due to its native 64-bit design.  Running x86 processors in hybrid 32/64-bit mode doesn't give you any speed advantages for 64-bit software, and actually performs WORSE for ALL software, than a native 32-bit or native 64-bit counterpart.  Adobe not only wants the extra memory support that 64-bit provides, but the added performance advantage that an underlying true 64-bit OS provides.  OS X can't provide that.  Sorry.

Say what you want about Windows backwards compatibility, but WOW64 is a huge step in the forward-looking direction.  When Microsoft wants to drop backwards 32-bit functionality, they already have a native 64-bit OS baseline, but they only have to drop the WOW64 layer.  If Apple ever wanted to drop 32-bit functionality, it would require a complete rewrite of OS X from scratch.  The OS X kernel is 32-bit, meaning that the CPU is perpetually in compatibility mode, but it is also the reason why you can use 32-bit drivers and software without compatibility issues.  However, the kernel takes additional overhead, which slows all processes overall.

To sum it up:  OS X is more backwards-looking with its 64-bit technology than Windows.  Funny, that.  With the new streamlined features, MinWin is looking pretty good right now too.

April 12, 2008 10:28 PM
 

Lindy said:

Waethorn, from what I read, Photoshop 64 bit OS X, had nothing to do with what you have stated.

From Adobe's comments it was the fact that Adobe was coding for Carbon which is a 32bit only API/Framework, that Apple has said it was going to upgrade to 64bit.  According to Adobe at the last min, Apple decided to stop the their plans to upgrade Carbon to 64bit and stick with Cocoa which is 64bit, and Adobe did not have enough time to conver to Cocoa.  Adobe should had made the move long ago.  Its probably a matter of resources and the Windows version sells more copies.

As far as OS X Leopard not being a true 64bit OS....prove it please.

Everything I have read about it says its 100% 64bit, with support for Carbon and 32 bit drivers.  The Kernel upon boot up checks the for PPC32, PPC63, X86 or X86_64 and then loads the version it needs to support the architecture.  Yes Vista 64bit is 64bit only with only software emulation for 32bit software....and that why its so popular and compatible with everything????

April 12, 2008 11:44 PM
 

weedmonk said:

Lindy...did you read his post? He made it very clear.

Unfortunately no amount of convincing will ever suffice for you though. The mighty mouse is lodged so far up. Isn't that why you feel the need to visit this blog like lotsa and iWarriors...insecurity and a nagging inferiority complex.

April 13, 2008 12:41 AM
 

Waethorn said:

"As far as OS X Leopard not being a true 64bit OS....prove it please."

Easily - the kernel is 32-bit.

You can't run a 32-bit kernel and also run an x86 CPU in native 64-bit mode, since the kernel also contains the task scheduling functions, which runs all of the time.  You also can't use a 32-bit hardware drivers on a true 64-bit operating system, although this is one of the features that OS X allows.

Therefore, it is running in 32-bit/64-bit hybrid ("compatibility") mode, which is less efficient (read: slower) than native 64-bit CPU mode.

"The Kernel upon boot up checks the for PPC32, PPC63, X86 or X86_64 and then loads the version it needs to support the architecture."

It is an entirely 32-bit kernel, sorry to say, regardless of what type of architecture you use.

"Yes Vista 64bit is 64bit only with only software emulation for 32bit software"

WRONG!  It runs 32-bit threads in hybrid mode, but runs natively in 64-bit mode the rest of the time.  64-bit software ALWAYS runs in native 64-bit CPU mode, because WOW64 switches the CPU operating mode when a 32-bit thread starts and stops.  There is no emulation needed for x86 hardware - only IA64 hardware (which is what Itanium's use).

April 13, 2008 12:43 AM
 

Waethorn said:

Here's a little extra tidbit of information for ya:

How would Microsoft drop legacy backwards compatibility of 32-bit applications in Windows?

By deleting 3 DLL's:  WOW64.DLL, WOW64WIN.DLL, and WOW64CPU.DLL, that's how!

How would Apple do the same with OS X?

By going back to the drawing board.

....or is that the photocopier???

April 13, 2008 12:54 AM
 

Gartner is really… over-hyped with this article. « Good Deals. Good Ideas. Good Designs. Good Health. said:

Pingback from  Gartner is really… over-hyped with this article. « Good Deals. Good Ideas. Good Designs. Good Health.

April 13, 2008 11:35 AM
 

Lindy said:

I stand corrected.  The kernel is 32bit.

arstechnica.com/.../6

"And there you have it: the big 64-bit news in Leopard is that GUI applications can now be 64-bit. Leopard applications can also specify an architecture preference order as well as a minimum OS version for each architecture. All of this 64-bit goodness comes in a single OS; there is no special 64-bit version. Leopard is one operating system that runs both 32-bit and 64-bit applications.

There is no "mixed mode" in Leopard. Every process is either 32-bit or 64-bit. Since a 64-bit process cannot load 32-bit plug-ins (and vice versa) there will be a significant transition period for applications that rely heavily on plug-ins. (I don't envy Adobe's developers... and it gets even worse for them, as you'll soon see.)

Apple has gone 64-bit across the board, with two major exceptions. The first is the kernel itself, which remains 32-bit in order to maintain compatibility with existing drivers."

It is not a pure 64bit OS.  It can run 64bit applications, and access memory above 4gig....so I guess its more of a hybrid.

So that really begs the question.  Its it better to have two versions with the hope that programmers will move to the 64bit version some day (Windows) or have one hybrid version and hope that programmers will move to 64bit?

I kind of like the single OS myself.  Imagine is Vista would have came out with just Ultimate for $99?  It would have been a hit even with its major teething problems.

April 13, 2008 7:02 PM
 

subzerohitman721 said:

This article and comments from Gartner is so rediculous that my brother and I busted out laughing at it. The Windows franchise is just fine. Everyone acts like Vista is soooooooo bad that it doesn't even boot. Then explain to me, why I write to you using Vista Ultimate with Service Pack 1 that I can easily write on this blog? People are creatures of habit and are very resistant to change. This is the way it was with 2000 and XP, so I believe people are forgetting recent history. So far, both my desktop and notebook Vista Ultimate are still running just fine. The simple truth is that all the naysayers have got it wrong. Windows Seven is proof that Microsoft and Windows will just be alright. We're going to get a smaller core with MinWin or the fruits of that work.

As for Paul's argument on a new platform, it couldn't hurt. Anything that improves and moves the industry forward would be welcome. I'm sure that both Apple and Microsoft R&D are working on it. But since Apple has essentially has not seriously change the way in which any of its operating systems work, why not a call for new platform there? What I mean by that is while the code base has changed and updated like Windows and the code is almost 64 bit except for the kernel, the user experience is essentially similar in function as the original 1984 Mac OS. Yes we have new applications but the user experience has not evolved any.

Gartner's reports always spell gloom and doom. Yet Microsoft seems to beat it. With this business about Photoshop will spur new Vista sales while Apple makes a curious mistake in not assisting Adobe. Sometimes I wonder if Apple is becoming like Microsoft more and more in the past. Cocky, inflexable, arrogant, and pushing more of its true base.. the Windows users away? Along with the its old base, the hare core Appleites away?

April 13, 2008 8:47 PM
 

clindhartsen said:

As a sidenote to Lindy, I just saw Circuit City, or one of the other generic electronics stores, selling Home Premium upgrade for XP Home's price, $99, and Ultimate upgrade for XP Pro's price, $189. Interesting, very interesting.

April 13, 2008 9:58 PM
 

Hardware IT Blog » Blog Archive » re: The Great Windows Collapse of 2011 said:

Pingback from  Hardware IT Blog  » Blog Archive   » re: The Great Windows Collapse of 2011

April 13, 2008 10:13 PM
 

Lindy said:

@subzerohitman721

I dont doubt that Windows and MS will be around a long time.  I do think they have peaked.  I think they are like IBM when it was once the king, big, slow and full of them selves.  They cant move fast enough to re-act anymore.

Vista, no matter how good it runs on your PC is a failure compared to XP.  The first year adoption rate of XP was double Vista's.  You have got more and more web based apps, especially in a large corporations that are starting to allow OS agnostic approaches if they so choose to go that route.  XP in that environment is fine and there is no reason for large companies to move off of XP....and they are not.  This is the core of MS profits, Windows and Office CAL's sold to corporations.  When that slows it hurts MS bad.

April 13, 2008 10:39 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"The first year adoption rate of XP was double Vista's."

WRONG!  It's equal (percentage-wise too, not just in number)

"XP in that environment is fine and there is no reason for large companies to move off of XP"

....until free support ends early next year (or more realistically, as soon as SP3 ships), and support costs go through the roof.

"Its [sic] it better to have two versions with the hope that programmers will move to the 64bit version some day (Windows) or have one hybrid version and hope that programmers will move to 64bit?"

The problem is, WHY would programmers move to 64-bit when the operating system runs in hybrid mode (OS X), because that exact reason means that 64-bit applications won't gain any performance benefit over 32-bit applications?  Developers would have no incentive to, except for the extended RAM support.  Compare that to Windows, where programmers can take advantage of the added performance NOW.  If Microsoft pulls the plug on 32-bit compatibility, then software developers won't have a choice but to adapt, which will benefit the end-user.

Again, I go back to my previous statement:  Apple would have to completely rewrite OS X in native 64-bit in order to provide those performance gains to software developers.

April 13, 2008 10:55 PM
 

Lindy said:

support.microsoft.com/lifecycle

XP will receive free support until 2014.  Next year, 2009, it will stop receiving OS enhancements, aka service packs etc.  It will continue to get security updates until 2014....for free.  Of course new applications will be written for it for a long time.  Even IE8 will run on XP.  So will the next version of Office.

If you want MS support for it after 2014 you will have to pay a very high price.   Heck Windows 2000 is still supported until 2010.

If an application is written in 64bit for Leopard today, what advantage does it not have compared to Windows Vista 64?

If a developer writes a 64bit app for Windows, the end user must be running the 64bit version, hence the reluctance to do so.  

If a developer writes 64bit app for OSX, this thought never crosses the developers mind about the end user OS.

In either case 64bit apps are still the vast minority for end user applications.

April 14, 2008 6:45 AM
 

pthurrott said:

So... Not sure how this turned into a discussion about 32-bit and 64-bit architectures. :) Honestly, this is the least important part of this post.

Suffice to say that Microsoft and Apple have gone different routes here, which makes sense given the different ways in which each company addresses their very different markets. The technical details, however, are largely irrelevant. From a mile-high view, I'd just point out that Apple can be more aggressive about abandoning older technologies (and, thus, "compatibility") because it has a smaller, younger user base that is far more tolerant of that kind of behavior than does Microsoft.

The support stuff is tied to this, too: Microsoft's biggest and most important market, by far, is the enterprise. That explains both the compatibility and the support issues raised here. Apple is not an enterprise company, they're a consumer company. (And let's not pretend that the Exchange stuff on iPhone is anything more than about raising sales to hit that first year sales target. Apple is not pushing into the enterprise in a serious way there, they're raising the installed base.) Once again, two very different companies. Each has been very successful targeting the markets that matter most to them.

April 14, 2008 8:15 AM
 

DRWAM said:

Excellent points Paul. Thanks for the info.

April 14, 2008 8:32 AM
 

Waethorn said:

"XP will receive free support until 2014."

WRONG!  Extended Support is available on a paid contract or pay-per-incident basis.  Only Mainstream Support is free.

"It will continue to get security updates until 2014....for free"

According to this website, you are wrong:

support.microsoft.com/.../lifepolicy

"Consumer, Hardware, and Multimedia products

Security updates will be available through the end of the Mainstream Support phase."

Since they haven't updated this for the new Windows XP for ULCPC program, I would take it as canon.  Customers with ULCPC's would only be able to get support from their hardware manufacturer for bundled preinstalled copies anyway - Microsoft doesn't support OEM preinstalled copies.

Hotfixes are also NOT free, and require the aforementioned support contract or ppi support payment.  They are not available via any software update channel.

According to the paragraph above that:

"Business and Development software

Security updates will be available through the end of the Extended Support phase (five years of Mainstream Support plus five years of the Extended Support) at no additional cost for most products. Security updates will be posted on the Microsoft Update Web site during both the Mainstream and the Extended Support phase."

....it would seem that only Windows XP Pro will get security updates during Extended Support.

"If you want MS support for it after 2014 you will have to pay a very high price"

WRONG!  Microsoft won't support it after 2014.

"Heck Windows 2000 is still supported until 2010."

And companies are paying big money to have support contracts because it's in Extended Support only.

"If a developer writes a 64bit app for Windows, the end user must be running the 64bit version, hence the reluctance to do so."

Sorry, but once again, you're wrong there.  Developers requiring high precision and memory usage are already developing 64-bit applications for Windows, and they've been doing that since Windows XP x64 Edition.  Likewise, they are writing it for a vast majority, so the returns on investing in 64-bit technology in Windows far outweigh any programming hurdles.

"If a developer writes 64bit app for OSX, this thought never crosses the developers mind about the end user OS."

WRONG!  They would have to worry whether or not the platform architecture is a Core Duo (which doesn't support 64-bit), or a PPC, which has incompatible 64-bit technology.  Unsuspecting buyers (which makes up the majority of Mac users) won't know this.  Customers running Windows Vista x64 already won't need to know what their platform architecture is, and it's easy to find out if your Windows Vista copy is 64-bit (right-click on Computer, go to Properties).

"In either case 64bit apps are still the vast minority for end user applications."

*THAT'S* you're rebuttal?!  Shrugging off the issue???

April 14, 2008 8:34 AM
 

Avro said:

Paul,

Excellent points about the target markets for Apple and Microsoft.  On the other hand I think there is much to be said for the suggestion of going for a new system and offer backwards compatibility through virtualisation.  It made the transition from OS 9 to OS X a lot easier and most people went over once the OS was right and the ecosystem was right which was not until 10.2 Jaguar.  The problem for Microsoft is that Windows is starting to look like a Johnny Cash 1953-73 Cadillac and that is not good for anybody.  

Nor can Microsoft stand still as Apple (consumer) and more importantly Linux (Enterprise) are barking at its heels - not biting yet - but Microsoft should not be complacent.

Yes (64 vs 32 bit) this is very much a side issue due to a Red Herring the size of a Blue Whale!  Actually it made sense for Apple to abandon Carbon which dates from the OS 9 days and concentrate 64 bit on Cocao.  Adobe backed the wrong horse and they are far from the easiest company to deal with.  They will have to play catch-up.

April 14, 2008 9:27 AM
 

DRWAM said:

Avro, I wonder how many of us have listened to "One piece at a time". I am not a country fan, but I can remember it.

April 14, 2008 10:42 AM
 

DarkSages said:

Paul

"From a mile-high view, I'd just point out that Apple can be more aggressive about abandoning older technologies (and, thus, "compatibility") because it has a smaller, younger user base that is far more tolerant of that kind of behavior than does Microsoft. "

"Apple is not an enterprise company, they're a consumer company."

Great points I will say that I don't have any complains about the enterprise support form Microsoft. In the other hand Apple I will say does not care about their customers, I have a ticket open with them since 2006 back then we had 10.3Server that we purchased with an upgrade "AMP" agreement. The problem is with the printing service with quotas it has never worked. To this date now running 10.5.2 server the quotas are still not working. I don't now why they even include them in their system and promote them. Also the when going from 10.3 server to 10.4 you better have the money to upgrade your clients and the same from 10.4 to 10.5. Apple is a joke in enterprise setups.  

April 14, 2008 10:55 AM
 

timiteh said:

Well, i agree that MS needs a new platform and strategies shift.

Overall M.S has great products even though some are a bit too expensive for their intended target.

However i think that Windows is unfortunately one of their more problematic product which happens to be the foundation for most of their solutions.

Once XP is made secure enough, it can become more bloated than Vista and overall as slow or even slower.

And i don't even talk of all the security problems and vulnerabilites XP had compared to Vista.

Most of the nastier Virus which have given us troubles those last months on XP,haven't worked at all on Vista.

This said Vista have drawbacks which can be painful such as:

*The DRM(like this nasty little process which start each time i try to play a file with Windows media player or the one linked to Aero)

*The big ressources requirement(at least 2 GB of RAM and a lot of disk space)

*The windows rot which is much worse than XP, in other words vista get old much quicker than any installation of XP i have used from XP Home to XP pro SP2

*A far from perfect backward compatibility which makes several of our solutions uncompatible with Vista,etc...

In my country these problems are preventing a wide adoption of Vista even in entreprises which are Microsoft partner like mine.

Of course i understand that M.S economic model prevent them to highly optimise their O.S but this very economic model should have prevented them to do some significant errors with Vista.

If MS wanted to efficiently target completely different categories customers (from those appealed by Eee PC,whom some consider doing of it their main laptop, to those appeal by higher end solutions than Mac) then they should have designed true different version of windows,each optimised from scratch for their intended target.

Moreover a better backward compatibility mechanism with much less side effects on the whole system is overdue and would have been a great new feature for Vista.

I don't expect marvels from Windows 7 which seems just to be an update of Windows Vista but if it could just have:

*Smaller hardware requirements than Vista

*Significantly better hardware compatibility with pre-Vista software

*A significantly reduced Windows rot

*Each version of Windows strongly optimised for its intended target with a for mare appealing U.I for the high end version

Then it would be already a good thing.

This said and despite all these troubles it has,i don't see Windows collapse anytime soon.

Neither Mac OS X nor Linux can become threats big enough to Windows in a close future(meaning even in a decade).

If Apple had a significant different economic model then perhaps they could hope to rise up to 10 % of the worldwide market share.

However their current model make them willingly avoid to target the vast majority of PC customers,so...

April 14, 2008 12:31 PM
 

Lindy said:

@Waethorn

I originally said "It will continue to get security updates until 2014....for free".

I should have been more clear.  I am talking about XP Pro the only XP OS a corporation would be using since its the only XP version that can join an AD domain.  Its probably the most popular version in use by far.  Like I said the OS wont be upgraded anymore, just recieve security updates until 2014, just like you can get free security updates for Windows 2000 today.  I have a few Windows 2000 servers that got their security updates in Feb via my FREE WSUS server.

So your WRONG!!!!!!!! Lol take a breather buddy.  The MS apologist title you carry around your neck will give you a hear attack.

support.microsoft.com/.../lifepolicy

As far as support past extended period.  Right now you cant, but MS has changed that in the past.  I know corporations that paid for NT support past the extended....then extended more support period.  Same for Exchange 5.5.  MS has changed its mind on XP a few times already.

Sorry if you did not like my reply to 64 bit.  Facts are facts.  32bit application on any desktop OS are still probably 80/20 if not more compared to 64bit apps.  98% of the users dont care.  They do care way more about having to decide between 5 versions of a OS compared to picking just one.

April 14, 2008 1:11 PM
 

Avro said:

I don't see Apple making a big dent in the Enterprise market although they have made some progress in the under 1,000 employees area.

The big threat to Microsoft in Enterprise here in Europe is Linux and the recent fine may make it harder for Microsoft to maintain its near monopoly in that area of the market.  Already Germany and France are heading towards Linux and certainly the UK government leaders are making sounds in that direction.  In any case legislation is dictating that the most cost effective solution to an IT requirement be chosen.  Pencils will need to be sharpened.

Microsoft certainly has its work cut out for it.  It can't operate on Cruise Control and be sure that Enterprise will come its way as it has done for years.

arstechnica.com/.../20080414-microsoft-may-be-barred-from-eu-public-procurement-procedure.html

April 14, 2008 1:28 PM
 

pthurrott said:

Avro raises a good point I should have addressed more.

Virtualization is indeed a great solution for backwards compatibility. In fact, Microsoft's recent advances in this market suggest that the company can start moving much more quickly when it comes to dropping legacy technologies one they get a Hyper-V derivative built into the client OS.

One thing I will say is this: I've been doing a lot of testing lately with XP and other Windows versions, and for whatever its worth, XP runs like a bat out of you know what under Virtual PC on Windows Vista. And Virtual PC isn't exactly the fastest solution around. This suggests that a better virtualization solution, coupled with something that is essentially XP, could provide Windows 7 (or whatever) with a best of both worlds type scenario. Certainly, people are speculating along these lines. I think it makes sense.

April 14, 2008 2:37 PM
 

iPhone can be thoroughly hacked, security expert… — Anti spam and Mail Cleaning Software said:

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April 14, 2008 5:31 PM
 

timiteh said:

"Virtualization is indeed a great solution for backwards compatibility. In fact, Microsoft's recent advances in this market suggest that the company can start moving much more quickly when it comes to dropping legacy technologies one they get a Hyper-V derivative built into the client OS."

I hope that they will go this way but i somehow doubt that it will happen with Windows 7.

Perhaps with Windows 8 that i hope will be a major upgrade of Windows with significant improvements.

"One thing I will say is this: I've been doing a lot of testing lately with XP and other Windows versions, and for whatever its worth, XP runs like a bat out of you know what under Virtual PC on Windows Vista."

A funny thing is that i have several XP virtual machines that run faster than the physical machine on which they are executed.

Thus XP alone is quite fast though it become quickly bloated once one install antivirus and other security software.

"And Virtual PC isn't exactly the fastest solution around. This suggests that a better virtualization solution, coupled with something that is essentially XP, could provide Windows 7 (or whatever) with a best of both worlds type scenario. Certainly, people are speculating along these lines. I think it makes sense."

Indeed and if the XP which is running in the virtualisation layer doesn't require bloated security software,then legacy software could run at a great speed and possibly faster than native applications.

April 15, 2008 3:42 AM
 

blog@bremm-consult » Blog Archiv » Microsoft vor dem Kollaps? said:

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April 15, 2008 11:25 AM
 

Snakedoctor1 said:

XP runs like a bat out of hell in VMware Fusion as well.  I run a 512meg, single proc, XP VM for my home Windows needs (Visio 2007).  It will boot up in 20 seconds or less.  I give it its own "space" full screen.

My Vista VM is a bloated PIG with Fusion and that is with 1gig and Vista Business, stripped down.  Luckily I only use it to help family members that are luck enough to have Vista:)

April 15, 2008 7:16 PM
 

mjw149 said:

Here's my rebuttal:

1.  Why was iPhone such a better execution years after Windows Mobile was released?

2. Why is Vista so incompatible with XP games (for example) when there is so much backwards compatibility built in?

3. Why are there so many redundancies, like media players, for example?

I think Gartner's point is not so much about Windows' popularity, which is unchallenged, but that Windows as a development project is in disarray.  History backs him up.  The Windows NT kernel is fine and adaptable and performs nicely, but their process for putting Vista on top of it was clearly troubled.

To be clear, I've seen 3 separate issues addressed in these blogs:

1. Windows as a platform -> popular and not collapsing.

2. Windows as a business -> profitable and not soon collapsing.

3. Windows as a development project -> a complete mess.

And I think that's what Gartner was addressing and I think they're right about that one.  It's not just about corporate focus, which is certainly drifting from their core, it's about Windows itself being a mess to develop for.  Everything goes in cycles and Windows is in its baroque, overweight, sequined bellbottoms, Huge Tail Fins and Chrome phase of life.  They may have hit a barrier that no one has hit before in terms of size of code+code complexity+business complexity+sheer numbers of employees and clients and partners involved.

April 21, 2008 9:07 AM
 

MobileTechOnline » re: The Great Windows Collapse of 2011 said:

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April 21, 2008 10:25 AM
 

MobileTechOnline » re: The Great Windows Collapse of 2011 said:

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April 21, 2008 10:25 AM
 

Vista: The 'New Coke' - Diabetes Daily Forum said:

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April 24, 2008 3:49 PM
 

Diabetes » Blog Archive » Vista: The ‘New Coke’ - Diabetes Daily Forum said:

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April 24, 2008 8:07 PM
 

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April 25, 2008 2:06 AM
 

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April 25, 2008 2:39 AM
 

Pedro Innecco » Archive » Gartner says: Windows is collapsing (really?) said:

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July 7, 2008 3:31 PM
 

what is the difference between windows vista home premium with service pack 1 32 bit 64 bi said:

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July 9, 2008 9:49 PM

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