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Mac fanboys (and I am one of them) like to respond to price criticisms by updating good-enough-for-me PC configuration to match Mac's nearly-fully-loaded configuration. For instance, adding stuff most PC users don't care for, such as web cam, Vista Ultimate Edition, and Bluetooth, just to bring PC price closer to that of comparable Mac.

I am always suspicious about these low cost PC stories.  My best friend went off to a computer warehouse for a basic laptop.  The salesman put him off a Mac by saying 'They are expensive and only for graphic artists" .  He walked out with a £649 ($1300) Vista laptop with £100 ($200) of absolutely necessary accessories.  My MacBook cost me £440 ($880).

I was on the point of buying a Dell preloaded with Ubuntu when I saw the MacBook on sale.  Once I had specced up the Dell it was far more expensive than the MacBook.

Do you really get that much better hardware for $1000? A couple months ago I bought a Lenovo IdeaPad Y510 with a 1.6 ghz Core Duo, 3 gigs of ram, 250 gig hdd, DVD DL Burner, and Vista Home Premium for $530 (and integrated web cam with face recognition, nutmac). Excellent computer. In fact it's the best computer that I have ever owned and the cheapest computer that I have ever bought. Highly recommend it. I'm sure it would have no problem whatsoever running OSX (if that were possible). There has been several times when I have at the same time ran Windows Media Encoder (converting videos), VirtualBox running Ubuntu, IE7, Zune, and Windows Live Mail without even the hint of a hiccup. For me personally (and I do much more taxing things with my computer than the average Joe), my $530 computer is much more than I need for anything. That's why most people can't justify paying $1500 for a Mac.

File this under "D'uh". Apple has always milked the moron tax on its users and the iTards are oblivious.

LMFAO@ at all the anecdotal BS stories that will ensue of how Dells/HP's etc etc are equal or more expensive when they shopping.

I just bought this for my Niece over the weekend. Mind you its the premium line for Dell and the Inspirons were cheaper. Its not even close really with all the deals Dell HP and the rest run weekly.

Dell XPS M1330, Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T5550, 1.83GHz, 13.3" WXGA, 4GB RAM, 320GB, CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW Drive),  802.11 a/b/g/n, Bluetooth, 2.0 Megapixel Integrated Webcam, Biometric Fingerprint Reader, McAfee SecurityCenter 15-months, Windows Vista™ Home Premium, 1Yr In-Home Service, 3GB Online Backup for 1Year » for $1003.20  at Dell.com

Paul, I don't think your headline is wrong... but its not very useful analysis.  Dig in a bit, deeper here, as you're a marketshare-as-insteresting guy.

If Apple has 66% of the higher-end computer retail market, and is growing 45%+ year-over-year, while the Windows desktop market is DOWN 25%... that's very interesting.  Apple's gains in higher-ed are massive too.

That means that Apple dominates the main area of sales growth in retail PCs for consumers and small businesses.

Now, why does this matter?  Because the people buying $500 PCs aren't buying as much software as those buying $1000 PCs.  If you're a software developer targeting the consumer, this is important stuff.  Consumer software firms ignoring the Mac are ignoring a very sizable chunk of potential sales.  This is why Mac third party support has been going like gang-busters for the past three years and why WWDC is sold out a month in advance for the first time ever.

That's all important stuff for the platform.   And it's interesting to imagine what the next few rounds of growth will bring (as college students with Macs graduate and request them at work, or start businesses of their own).

Good times for computing competition.

But I guess on the most simplistic level, it does show that Apple's average selling price is much higher than the PC market.  That's a problem I think HP and Dell would love to have.

Peace.

As somebody who uses both Macs and PCs I would have to agree that PCs are cheaper, even with similar specs as a Mac.  I recently bought a new iMac (October 2007) and my dad bought a new Dell not that long after.  Both computers have about the same specs but the Dell was about $200 cheaper.

The one thing many Mac enthusiasts will point out is that the Mac will have a much higher resale value and taking that into consideration the Mac will come out with the advantage.  However, MOST people do not resale their old computers so I don't think that this argument is as relevant as it would seem.

@matt.brown,

I don't think the hardware between a Mac and a PC is really all that different. After all, external design aside, the innards of a Mac are very similar to that of a PC, Intel processors and all.

I think the price difference is about software more that anything else. With all of the Macs I've purchased, even the older ones dating back to the late 90's, it came with the software needed to do most of the day to day stuff I needed right out of the box. With a PC, I'm not sure that's the case, but I base my opinion mainly on the one PC I occasionally use at work, so I could be wrong. Right out of the box the PC didn't really have anything I could use to catalog my images, music or sound effects, let alone do so in as unified as manner as Apple's iLife apps (I'm an illustrator and an animator by the way). I would have had to purchase competitive apps separately, but since I've got two Macs as my main workstations, there wasn't a need for it. Of course, neither machine comes with the higher end tools I need like Photoshop or Cinema 4D, so I guess they're kinda equal in that respect.

That PC was definitely cheaper, but not nearly as useful. The only reason  we bought it was for a piece of software from UPS that we use to take orders for some of our artwork.

Of course, this may have all changed with Vista. Maybe it does come with some really good apps built in for that sort of thing, but our company won't let us use it until they feel confident enough about it.

So anyway, that's my two cents.

Peace.

Weedmonk,

It's not as if Dell and HP and the rest don't sell machines over $1000 at stores.  It's just that most people making that large of investment in their computer have done enough research to make a smarter choice.  Hence 66% of them buy Macs.  If you just want some cheapo thing to read the web, who cares.

What's funny, is that mac bashers have alway called out the platform for not having games.  Yet gaming machines are ALWAY the highest-end thing on the market.  And yet, here we are, with Apple utterly dominating the high end.  

Funny.

I think PC's are indeed cheaper.....all out!!  Here's why -- If I buy a $1200 Dell desktop and a $1200 iMac, when I want to upgrade some of the guts of the PC, I don't have to go spend another $1200 on an upgraded iMac if all I wanted was a new $500 graphics card....and that shiny new soundcard...or whatever.

Over the longrun, PC's are waaaay cheaper.  I still like my MBP, but my wallet says over time my PC is cheaper.

Makes sense... Last year I bought a 17" Toshiba 2GB ram, 1.9ghz Core Duo, Vista Premium, built in 1.3MP web cam, 10-key, wireless b/g/n for $850. Even after taxes and extended warrenty it was under $1,000...

Last month I bought this:

configure.us.dell.com/.../config.aspx

Lets see... that's a 2.4Ghz QUAD Core!! 3GB of DDR2 ram @800MHz, 500GB hard drive, upgraded to premium wireless mouse/keyboard, 8USB ports, Firewire, 19 in 1 media card reader, Wireless N, preloaded with Adobe Photoshop Elements 6 and Premiere 4 for................. $808. Yup, that's it! I went to do a comparison with a Mac Pro and the best (and fairest) configuration I could come to brought the Mac Pro to over $3,000. If you're wondering about the monitor, I just migrated over my 22" ViewSonic from my older computer (something you can't do with iMac's).

The fact that you can get a 500GB HD, 2.4Ghz Quad Core, 3GB RAM computer for $499 (see link above) speaks volumes about Apple's over-pricing.

Sooo... anyone into computers enough to buy a quality machine, 2/3rds of the time get a mac?  Is that what the data implies?

Soo... anyone that isn't buying a junky computer that will be obsolete in 2 years, 2/3rds of the time get a mac?  Is that what the data implies?

Paul, as a self proclaimed 'computer guy', when's the last time you bought a laptop or desktop with a screen for less than $1000?  Usually people who use computers as serious tools spend between $1000 and $2000 on their machines so that they will last a while and do the work well.

Apple is changing the way people think about comptuers... they're no longer junker commodity items with identical software, gray boxes, and malware vulnerabilities... now they're a way to talk to relatives hundreds of miles away (easily and quickly), music/photo/video organizing and sharing tools, which are fun to use and try new things on.  In addition to hardware that looks beautiful enough to put in the living room.

You can't claim that with any $500 PC, that's for sure.  I'm glad to see people actually caring about their computers, and excited about using them for once... not geeks mind you, but real people.  Teachers, carpenters, retired grandmas, etc.  It's amazing to see how excited they are about computing for the first time ever and not just buying the cheapest piece of trash they can to get on the internet and collect viruses for the next 4 months until their computer grinds to a hault.

@fivepoint:

"You can't claim that with any $500 PC, that's for sure."

See my post above. I guess since you can get it for $499 and not $500 you are technically correct ;)

Weedmonk:

"Dell XPS M1330, Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T5550, 1.83GHz, 13.3" WXGA, 4GB RAM, 320GB, CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW Drive),  802.11 a/b/g/n, Bluetooth, 2.0 Megapixel Integrated Webcam, Biometric Fingerprint Reader, McAfee SecurityCenter 15-months, Windows Vista™ Home Premium, 1Yr In-Home Service, 3GB Online Backup for 1Year » for $1003.20  at Dell.com "

For the same cost, you can get a macbook, with a 2.1Ghz Core 2 Duo processor.  You can add third party RAM for $50 or so, and you've got a far superior (in my opinion) machine with Mac OSX, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD, Garageband, etc.  

Also, it's virus free, doesn't come with any bloatware, and comes with the best customer service and support of all hardware vendors... hands down.  (actual americans on the phone helping you)

It's just like the iPhone vs a blackberry.

They cost identical amounts new, but you can get better deals on the blackberry.  You can sometimes even get them for 75% off... and the blackberry might even have a few more features.

But guess what... there isn't a sane logical person in the world that would day the blackberry is a better machine than the iPhone.  The iPhone has fewer features perhaps (iPhone: 3G, Mac: finger print recognition) but the features it has are actually done well (iPhone: Google Maps, Mac:  Virus protection, photos, video, expose')

So yeah, keep getting your discounted blackberrys and bottom-o'-the-barrel Dells, and I'll be living the high-life with my $400 iPhone and $1000 Macbook with a faster processor than yours.

fivepoint:

In case you haven't heard, OS X is less secure than either Windows Vista or XP. With Vista you have Windows Defender. I use my computers worry free and have never had a virus. I've had a number of friends with Macbooks, Macbook Pros and iBook's that have been hacked however.

Your comparison to the XPS isn't even close! Vista doesn't need as much processing power as does OS X, so a 2.1 might actually seem slower on a Macbook running OS X than an XPS running Vista at 1.83. Can you get 4GB of ram, 320GB hard drive with all the other stuff he mention AND "in home service"? (i.e. no phone necessary).

Also, iLife doesn't quite compare to things like Windows Movie Maker (not that I need it now that I have Premiere, see post above), Live Photo Gallery, Windows DVD Maker (perhaps not as good as iDVD, but a minor app at that) and the plethora of other apps you get for free. You want to compare Safari to IE? iChat to... every messenger available for PC's?

I'll give you Garageband and iDVD, but I'm sorry, we gotcha with Photo Gallery, Movie Maker, IE and the entire messenger arena.

Obviously you've never used a high end Blackberry. The Blackberry is an awesome device... so is the iPhone. What does this have to do with either?

Your Macbook's highest available processor is still only HALF what my processor on my Dell is. You need to do some research on Quad Core processors. The only Mac that supports it are the Mac Pros. Not Macbooks, not Macbook Pros, not iMac's and certainly not the Air or Mini.

@Cfischer83:

"In case you haven't heard, OS X is less secure than either Windows Vista or XP. With Vista you have Windows Defender. I use my computers worry free and have never had a virus. I've had a number of friends with Macbooks, Macbook Pros and iBook's that have been hacked however."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH,..... LOL.... HAHAHAHa... oh, you can't possibly be serious!

"Vista doesn't need as much processing power as does OS X"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH,..... LOL.... HAHAHAHa... oh, you can't possibly be serious!

"Also, iLife doesn't quite compare to things like Windows Movie Maker"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH,..... LOL.... HAHAHAHa... oh, you can't possibly be serious!

I HONESTLY do not know how to respond to your post.  It's full of OBVIOUS falicies and lies.  These are proven areas where macs and Mac OSX are superior... Windows Movie Maker? Give me a break!  Windows more secure than OSX?  Give me a break!  I honestly can't even explain how someone like you could be alive and kicking, actually following the tech industry, and have the viewpoints that you have.  Absolutely amazing!

All the commodity fanboys give examples of sale items and compare Apple computers at list.  Who pays list?  Almost everybody on the planet qualifies for the Apple 15% Higher Ed discount.  My Mac Pro came in at 27% under list and I will probably still be using it in 7 years.

Only a fool and his money are easily separated.

"Your macbook's highest available processor is still only HALF what my processor on my Dell is."

Right... because quad-core means twice as fast at the same ghz, right?  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH,..... LOL.... HAHAHAHa... oh, you can't possibly be serious!

I'm sure the 3.06Ghz iMac isn't nearly as fast as your quad-core machine.  Without a doubt.  ;)

Usually it takes 5 posts before the troll "comes out" of the mac user in unintelligible garble, but you did it in 4... nice job!

I obviously can't reply to "HAHAHA" or to "I HONESTLY do not know how to respond to your post" (I must have wowed you), so I'll do my best to help you understand...

Vulnerability. Who had the most in Q1 2008?

blogs.csoonline.com/which_desktop_os_had_the_most_vulns_in_q1_2008

How about the first 6 months of an OSes release?

blogs.csoonline.com/windows_vista_6_month_vulnerability_report

How about the whole year?

blogs.csoonline.com/windows_vista_one_year_vulnerability_report

Pwn to Own. Mac hacked in two minutes:

blogs.zdnet.com/security

Paypal urges users not to use Safari:

digg.com/.../Don_t_use_Safari_Paypal_Said

"Right... because quad-core means twice as fast at the same ghz, right?"

I never said twice as FAST. Read it again, I said it's TWICE the processor you can get on a Macbook. In case you didn't know, Quad cores from last year are actually two Duo Cores welded together. In this case I've got two of the highest core processors the Macbook can carry, and the Macbook can only carry one! So 1+1 = 2, that's twice the processor.

and FYI, in case you think I don't know what I'm talking about, I do use a Mac Pro everyday. It has two 2.66ghz processors and it is NO WHERE near as fast as my Dell.

"I'm sure the 3.06Ghz iMac isn't nearly as fast as your quad-core machine.  Without a doubt.  ;)"

Well... considering I have a Quad and the iMac is only a mobile Duo Core, I wouldn't be surprised, however, like I said, I only have a Mac Pro to compare.... I wonder if my Dell's faster than the Air? Hmm....

Keep on drinkin' that Kool Aid!

@dougxd.

What is this, 1996?  Gutting your PC to replace components like video cards and soundcards is so utterly obsolete.  FIrst of all, as a percentage of the overall market, fewer people upgrade their video cards than buy macs I would bet.  Just look at how few people upgrade Windows.  Essentially nobody.  Most Windows licenses are sold with new PCs.

Second... just sell your old computer and buy a new one!  What a terrible waste of good hardware to pull out old gear and chuck it in the trash.  As a former PC builder, I know for a fact that the only time it really makes sense to do an upgrade more extensive than ram and harddrive is after a full generation of tech has been released.  That means new video card, new motherboard with new chipset and prcoessor, probably newer ram.  That's a new computer.  To ruin your perfectly usable machine just to save the case is ludicrous, anti-environmental and out-dated.  Hell, give it to the poor.

I had a G5 tower since 2003.  Pushed up its ram and drives.  May have cost me $3500 overall.  Kept it til 2007 and sold it on ebay for $2000.  Now, instead of some dead heap of parts, it's still getting used and I put the proceeds to a new 8-core mac pro.  Many mac users do this.  Just check out ebay.

Then there's the whole real issue: people are moving to laptops.  Desktop sales overall are in major industry wide decline to the tune of 20% year-over-year (minus Apple a few others who are growing).  Laptops aren't upgradeable so this whole argument is irrelevant.

@Paul

You're right that most home PC users tend to buy cheaper machines than Apple makes available.

@weedmonk

Wow - that was a really heavy rant to go on and then turn around and buy a machine that's pretty close to a MacBook in specs and price.  If you like the Dell, more power to you, but it really isn't much cheaper than an equivalent Apple laptop.

@fischer

You can post all of the links you want about 'potential vulnerabilities' because all I care about are real world attacks.  

FACT:  There are THOUSANDS and MILLIONS of XP owners (Microsoft's most used OS) who have suffered through viruses/trojans/etc... and how many for Macs?  ZERO!!!!

Potential vulnerabilities are different than exploited ones... Troll.  Your attempt to state that Microsoft security is superior to Mac's is laughable.

Now, because you are entertaining me, I would LOVE to hear your reasoning why MovieMaker is better than iMovie... Hahhahaha!

I'm not sure I take away the same conclusion as you do Paul.  I agree this report says a lot about the PC market.  But I think that it's saying that the low end market is profitably unsustainable.

First of all, Troll? Really? Do you know what that even is? At least I'm giving logical, fact-based information in a respectful way. You're making outrageous claims in all CAPS with nonsense replies, all while trying to belittle me. Who's the troll?

Yes, thousands and even millions of people who own XP have viruses, I'm not disputing that. Even some Vista users out there (all 150,000,000 of them) have viruses, but to suggest that not one Mac has a virus? That's just plain ignorance. In case you haven't seen, there's a new virus everyday for the Mac (although most news sources will always start by saying it's the "first" but that's just poor journalism). Take, for example, this Trojan blogs.zdnet.com/security

You are also under the impression that "security" means viruses, viruses and only viruses. You're forgetting that most security issues involve getting past your password (e.g. phishing), loop holes in common protocols that are the same across all platforms, and encryption. Suppose you leave your "superior" macbook out and someone steals it? Guess what, they can recover passwords to things like your bank account, credit cards or anything thanks to this security glitch: www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9881870-7.html ... now suppose that I leave my Vista Ultimate laptop sitting out and it gets stolen.... what's that? The thief can't extract my password from the ram? Oh that's ok, he'll just take out the hard drive and find it... oh wait, bitlocker? The entire hard drive is encrypted.... hmm... Mr. Thief is going to have to go look for another Macbook to steal.

Sorry to tell you this but Mac's can get viruses, do get viruses and viruses are not the biggest problem on the computer anymore anyway. After all, with one sweep of my computer my anti-virus software kills anything that may be there, so what's the difference? Viruses can be  undone, stolen info and passwords cannot.

Windows Movie Maker... well, a time line is sure nice for one.... hmm... faster importing, better HD support, and MS actually makes each version BETTER rather than worse.

@cfisher38

You don't give any details about that super fast Dell that's faster than your Mac Pro.  You also don't say what applications you're using to make the comparison.

Any system can be brought to its knees.

What details do you want? I thought I gave plenty.

Dell: 2.4ghz Quad Core, 3GB Ram

Mac: Two 2.66Ghz Core 2 Duos, 6GB Ram (OS X Tiger).

I am using virtually the same apps on both.

Mac: Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Firefox, Safari, Opera, Word, Excel, iTunes, iPhoto, YummyFTP, Fireworks, Flash and Adium as my Messenger.

Dell: Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Fireworks, IE7, Safari, Opera, Word, Excel, iTunes, SmartFTP, Fireworks, Flash, Zune, Premiere, Live Photo Gallery and Trillian as my messenger.

At any point, many of these apps will be absent from my process list so I know it is not any one app slowing my Mac down. Even if it was, my Mac's not slow just not as fast as my Dell.

WOW! Look at all the activity here..

makes me want to throw eggs! ;-)

Before the Mac fanboys get too carried away with the 66% figure, which I'm sure you will, that figure is the retail share of computers sold in brick-and-mortar stores.  Of course the headline wouldn't have the same oomph if that was mentioned in the mast head, so you get a statement that needs to be clarified later.  Now I don't don't doubt that Apple has grown tremendously, but let's look at this without fruity colored glasses.  Up until very recently, Dell was sold almost exclusively through Dell.com, and HP does plenty of their business online too.  Take in to account that the general brick-and-mortar general computer store is somewhat dying, with the death of CompUSA.  The Wal-Mart's of the world certainly don't sell expensive computers, nor do they really sell expensive anything for that matter.  So having Apple with it's shiny stores selling high-end goods and getting a big piece of the pie is not surprising.  However, I'd like to see the overall consumer market, not just brick-and-mortar.

"Troll.  Your attempt to state that Microsoft security is superior to Mac's is laughable."

You looking in the mirror or trying to state a fact?  It is quite laughable that you would treat security in such a black and white manner, when you really have no data to back up your claims, except what you feel is true.  The ZERO figure that point out is a little hard to quantify, since your mothership has sold you a computer that they state is incapable of getting malware, which means that the general populace of Mac users doesn't have any anti-malware software.  A dangerous spot to be in for sure.

"If Apple has 66% of the higher-end computer retail market, and is growing 45%+ year-over-year, while the Windows desktop market is DOWN 25%"

John, where are you getting these figures?  The figures that I can find don't really support this and see way overly optimistic and hyperbolic.

From IDC's figures which Paul had reported on last month:

www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp

These were the figures that showed 25% growth for Apple, and 15% growth for Dell for first quarter 2008, just for comparison.  Actual unit growth for Apple was 191 thousand, and was 667 thousand for Dell.  And as I mentioned in that same article, the percentage growth for Apple was certainly great, but the actual unit growth does not meet up, and is certainly less.

This regularly updated article also provides some insight:

en.wikipedia.org/.../Usage_share_of_desktop_operating_systems

All of these figures don't align with the Fortune article, which makes believe that the retail brick-and-mortar sales are relatively a drop in the bucket of the greater computer market.

Yep, you're all correct. But I just reinstalled XP SP2  and then SP3 after reformatting my hard drive and I am still getting errors. Of course, having seen over a thousand viruses, crippling Malware and Trojan Horses on several friends Windows machines, and not one on a Mac [my Macs have never been hacked, but neither have my PC's], I beg to differ about security. Also, the winner[s] of CanSecWest admitted that they setup the website to take advantage of a pre-choosen vulnerability, spending two weeks setting it up [but i do not know if it was during their spare time, but they admitted to two weeks], I would say that it did not take a couple minutes, especially since they had to have direct access to the computer and were unable to break in over the network. If they were in my house, it would not be my computer that I would be worried about. Now I am in to my 4th hour to to reinstall XP. After SP3, it fails to DL and install any updates. Yep, saving $200 to work hours in frustration is REALLY worth it!

JohnPapola-

Usually you make sense (while being at the opposite end of spectrum from me in your opinions, being a macboy and all - but that's all fine, who expects you guys to approach computing with reason anyway... ;) but this particular argument of yours is just plain idiotic:

"What's funny, is that mac bashers have alway called out the platform for not having games.  Yet gaming machines are ALWAY the highest-end thing on the market.  And yet, here we are, with Apple utterly dominating the high end.  

Funny"

That is almost like a lot of the politics nowadays - just because now there is Al Qaeda in Iraq people say that we went there to fight terrorism.  

NOBODY buys Macs to game; and guess what - you couldn't really game on a Mac.  At best, your argument shows that Mac crowd is not that bright, because, after all, they use it for consumer / productivity apps, which much cheaper PCs can accomplish just as well (I know you will scream No here, but whatever).  

The gamers Will spend on the highend, but the gamers are a niche and never dominated the market in the first place.

DRWAM:

I'm betting that most your friends are Windows users, and I'll be they are on XP. I'll also bet that most to stories you speak of were pre SP2.

Going back to my point above, security isn't just about viruses. Although viruses will aways be with us, they aren't the issue they once were thanks to SP2 for XP and the whole architecture of Vista.

I on the other hand would rather have a more secure and reliable Vista PC than my Mac that has crashed over and over and over again...

My friends all had XP SP2 and kids, but I have had no crashes with my Macs and lots of problems with XP [plug and don't play]. I am using Vista without problems, but only a little, but I do like it. But you know what Cfisher83? If I cannot fix XP after another SP3 install, I am just going to try to install Vista on it and hope that it works. That's a good idea, so thanks, because I have better things to do than play with this PC.  I guess that I better read the minimum requirements. Thanks for the idea.

BTW, if you're talkin' an $800 difference, then hell yeah I would buy the PC as an average user, maybe even $500, because they really do the same thing for an average user [Leopard and Vista]. Wish me luck. If you think that you see a shooting star tonight, bet that's it's my PC flying out the window [I'm an ex-shot putter too]

@Cfischer83

How is it even fair to compare Vista performance with Tiger, which came out back in 2005? That's just silly. That's like when the hardcore Mac fanboys who would say Tiger was faster than Windows XP which was four years old at the time.

Fresh install Leopard then we'll see which OS outperforms one another. In my experience with both Vista and Leopard is they're both equal. I've had no problems with Leopard compared to Tiger which was just a nightmare that I'm glad to be over with.

I have had no problems with Tiger either. Leopard even runs fast on a 1999 G4 Tower with a 1.25GHz CPU upgrade. Of course all my XP plug and play problems were before SP2, and XP does run the world, especially the medical 'cloud'. You would all be dead without it. The people at this site seems to have a problem with XP and Leopard. XP has been a workhorse for years, and keeps on going. I like them all.

Now my install problem. I uninstalled SP 3. I think that I was missing Windows installer 3.1, but it looks like I may have gotten a fix.

@Paul how you read into that article that Mac's are more expensive????  Then again you would not be you with out bashing Apple.

@cfischer

Windows does not ship with anything compared to iLife 08.  

Movie maker is a joke.  I used if for years when I had XP because I did not want to spend money on something better like Sony Vegas or whatever.  

When I got my first Vista notebook last year I bought a new video camera and retired my digital 8mm after many years.  Anyhow I got a Sony camera with a 40gig drive and low and behold Vista/Movie Maker 6 (what happened to 3, 4, & 5?) in all of its new shiny gui, love fest could not read the HD on the camera.  Plugged it into my Macbook and Leopard/iMovie started dumping the video into iMovie.....cuz it just works.  

Oh and you just got to love that coster or um DVD maker that ships with "some" versions of Vista, its almost as bad as the Zune 1.0 software, but better than WHS:)

You got PC lovers here with their stories of getting Dell super cheap with a coupon code they got of some site, combined with a xmas or back to school sell/corporate discount/mothers day/take you kid to school day sale, comparing them to the highest price Apple they can find.  New Flash you can buy Mac's on sale....go to Amazon during a holiday, Macbooks are usually the #1 seller during the holidays, or get a student discount from someone you know.

Here is a comparison (not winsupersite comparison) from 1 year ago....

www.systemshootouts.org/.../0515_lt1100.html

Every Dell I see that is 3 or more years old always looks like a used Frisbee.....not so for Macs.

DRWAM, I don't know what to tell you about SP3, but upgrading to Vista is probably the best thing to do if your PC can handle it.

$800 difference? My Dell at $800 compares to an OVER $3,000 Mac Pro. That's almost $2,500 I saved by not getting a Mac. I can also get a laptop for about $1,000 that compares to the Macbook Pro that is $3,000. You know what kind of PC laptop you can get for $3,000? PhantomX - Quad core, up to 8GB of ram, two high end graphics cards, 750GB HD, 17" 1920x1200 resolution.

@SacredCow:

I don't understand your reasoning... Older software should run faster on new hardware than new software does... So Tiger should run faster than Vista, but it doesn't.

@Lindy

Vista Movie Maker is head & shoulders above XP movie maker. I don't know why you couldn't import your video but I'm betting it was probably a One-D-Ten-T problem ;)

Who said anything about coupons, specials or any of that? Did you not read anything I posted? Did you not see the link that takes you directly to Dell's website where you can get 2.4ghz Quad Core, 3GB Ram, 500GB HD for $499? Apparently not.

Once again you totally missed the point. Of course you can always FIND PC's that are as expensive as Mac's... why would anyone go searching for a MORE expensive PC? The point is that you CAN find PC's that blow equivalent Mac's out of the water at price. Can you show me a quad core Mac under a grand? Under two grand? Can't find any at Apple.com. Can't find any at Amazon. Can't find any on Ebay. Can't find any on Craigslist.

Windows Movie Maker cant read the any of the native Hard drive formats, with out adding third party software.  Hard Drive based camcorders are rapidly replacing tape based cameras, and Vista cant support them out of the box.

I see your Dell Quad core.  Yes its pretty dam cheap I will give you that.  Looks nice a cheap as well, but that does not matter all that much for most people.  You cant even begin to compare it to the Mac Pro they are two different classes of computers.  

The Dell is a desktop computer with a only single socket, max 2.6ghz stock 2.4ghz, ships with integrated graphics, limited disk options and is Fugly:)  Oh and it comes with Vista....hail Mary full of grace.....

The Mac Pro is a serious workstation/work group server.  It has two sockets and the default is dual 2.8ghz quad Xeons with options up to 3.2ghz all .45nm Harpertown vs the 2.4ghz .65nm for the Dell.  It had a RAID card option, SATA or SAS drives, up to 32gig of Memory, dedicated video card.  It comes with Leopard with an option for Leopard server.  The computer its self is a work of art, again that does not matter to most.  Yes its $2300 for low end option, 2.8ghz, 320gig drive, 2gig of RAM and a dedicated video card.

Two differen class computers.  The Mac Pro is comparable to a high end XPS desktop, some of which are over 4K.

Besides who the heck uses desktop computers anymore?  The only desktop I have in my house is an old Dell desktop I bought from my company for $50.  It works like a champ with 256megs of memory as a FreeNAS server:)

There are so many problems with the above post I don't know how to cover them all... and since it's late and I've spent all day debunking Apple Crap (Crapple) I'll make it short.

Mac Pro is NOT a serious work group server. Tried using it as a server at work and was the biggest pain in the butt! It was the second Mac Pro I had to reinstall the OS on. I had an easier time using a 512mb ram, Pentium 4 PC running Windows 2000 as a server than I did the MP.

The Mac Pro is certainly a high end workstation (although not the highest), the point I keep trying to prove OVER AND OVER is that the two desktops do overlap in configurations, and the Dell comes out on top by a long shot, and there are NO other Mac's out there that can compare to this Dell.

Who uses desktops? Um... half the world, that's who O_o

@Cfischer83

My reasoning is fine because I can vouch personally that Leopard performs better than Tiger on Intel hardware. See, I can be like you. I can make claims and have nothing to back them up other than my own personal experience. You make a claim, present it as fact. I can do the same.

You're debunking hasn't done anything but waste your time. Is this what you do with your free time or are you wasting your companies money?

The arguing all seems a little silly.  Yet again everyone's arguing about the big things - performance, security, stability etc - things that are actualyl hard to measure because their relevance is dependant on the situation of use.

It's the little things that can make all the difference between a dissapointing computing experieince, and a satisfying one, and that's all going to depend on what you actually want and expect out of your computer.

I use Vista all day at work, and have a Dell Vista Laptop at home, but I also have a fairly new iMac on my desk at home, which is the computer I use most of the time when I'm there - I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to the average home user, because it's frankly more likely to deliver the computing experience they expect - if it costs more, I'd say it's worth the money.

First of all, this whole thread is so typical.  Are macs generally more expensive than PCs on average?  Of course!  Are they fairly competitive (though still marginally more expensive) than comparably equipped PCs... clearly.  Should this be the sole basis for your purchasing decision?

Only if you're an ignorant cheapskate.

As for midrange towers vs. the Mac pro... not reasonable.  The Mac Pro is a workstation.  It's got Dual quad core Xeons and is clearly targeted at professionals.  Comparing it to anything other than a Dell precision workstation, or HP workstation or Boxx machine is dishonest and/or ignorant.

Apple doesn't make a standard mini-tower.  It's a hole in their lineup.  But given their growth rate in desktops and the decline of desktop sales overall, there's clearly little reason for them to appeal to this niche.

Apple's growing a very healthy rate and it's not because there's a rapidly growing population of morons on the earth.  It's because the Mac has genuine value over Windows PCs for many users.  It's not the end-all-be-all for everyone, but only arrogant dorks will try to marginalize the Mac's value just because they can spec out a system that's a few hundred bucks cheaper.  That's just dork nonsense.

Regarding security, any smart Mac users should be very careful about touting security as a key feature.  Vista has improved things on Windows to the point where there is pretty much parity.  OSX may at this point be technically less secure since Apple doesn't have the resources Microsoft has to pour over their code line by line.

In practice, the Mac is a very hack/virus free experience... for now.  So let's just drop it until something meaningful changes (and no, pwn2own is not meaningful).

Fivepoint,

with all due respect, the crazy text laughing isn't helping you or the mac pov out.

Cfischer,

I don't know about Vista's media tools, but Paul has always reviewed iLife as being DRAMATICALLY superior to anything on the Windows platform.  I'll take Paul's word since he is mr. winsupersite and his reviews tend to be pretty fair.  Given that, I'm going to guess that your slam against iLife has to do with standard PC-user spec sheet reading and not actual use of the applications.

Dpsht,

"John, where are you getting these figures?  The figures that I can find don't really support this and see way overly optimistic and hyperbolic."

I'm pulling them directly from the article Paul is linking to here (which I emailed him yesterday morning).  

IDC's numbers are wrong.  Plain and simple. Apple's Q108 numbers directly from them show 44% y-o-y growth in units.  That's the real number for Apple's computer growth and it's pretty massive in the context of the overall PC market (roughly three times faster).

ibarsky,

I'm glad you think I'm usually reasonable, but that makes your direct insults all the weirder.  I'm not claiming people buy macs for games.  Obviously they don't.  What I'm saying is simple.  PC users bash the mac for being expensive, then (typically) they turn around point to games as a major missing element for the platform.  There's clear and obvious hypocrisy in those arguments because gaming PCs are very expensive, with graphics cards that exceed the average selling price of PC desktops.

"John, where are you getting these figures?  The figures that I can find don't really support this and see way overly optimistic and hyperbolic."

Agreed.  My point was simply about the hypocritical anti-mac argument that's always dominated the web.  Of course, gaming belongs on consoles now with a shrinking niche of kids PC gaming, so it matters less than ever.

As for your bizarre political analogy... stick to tech comments, political commentary is clearly not your strong suit.

@cfischer

Apple supports their server OS on their server line and the Mac Pro.  Install it on anything else and they wont support it.

If you load up that Mac Pro with two Quad 3.2ghz Xeons (8cores) and 32gigs of RAM , 10.5.2 server OS it could easily server up 5 - 200 people as a small company/work group server (file, print, directory, web, email, ical...etc).  I have seen SBS2003 run on 1/4 the hardware and serve up 70 people.  

Fully loaded the Mac Pro would make a pretty amazing web or db server, they do make Oracle for OS X server.  Maybe with you it was a pebkac, and that is why you had problems.

The Mac Pro uses the Xeon quad cores and ECC-FB-DIMMS only found in high end workstations and servers.  Your Dell uses desktop parts.  

The only Dell that is comparable to the Mac Pro is the Precision T7400 workstation and if you configure it the same as the Mac Pro default, (dual 2.8ghz quad core Xeons with 2gig of FB-DIMMS) its MORE EXPENSIVE than the Mac Pro by over $1000.  The Dell comes with a cheap 19inch monitor and a smaller HD (250gig vs 320gig) but I guess they got to make you feel good for that extra grand.

configure.us.dell.com/.../config.aspx

vs

store.apple.com/.../BizCustom

I know FACTS suck.

Oh and notebooks have been out selling desktops for a few years now.  I can google some stats for you if you would like?

The thing that Cfischer83 seems to not grasp is this:

Anecdotal "evidence" is not data.... Let that sink in and repeat until it becomes clear.

They are your personal experiences, not some cognitive dissonance that  Mac users experience, because I'm willing to bet that the vast majorities experience is not your experience.

The price subterfuge is always and interesting one. The claims of a Mac always underperforming against a "comparable" Dell (whatever the hell that is) are exercising in partisan "I want my side to win, so I change the parameters to my team wins". Really? Are you thinking we wouldn't notice this?

No different from Paul in his anti-Apple rants to be quite honest. He is qualified to speak about Microsoft; wholly unqualified to speak about anything Apple, until some proper journalistic neutrality is attained.

Sad thing is that Paul is well thought out most of the time, but his bias, his thinly veiled vitriol, his clumsy "I actually like Apple" disguise (Sorry Paul, not buying that bridge) against anything Aple makes his posts worth the electrons this post is residing on, in other words no much.

So Cfischer83 continue at the feet of your Jedi Master, so far I'm still waiting for a point from you that is anything more the fanboyism (read: anyone who throws out the label of "Crapple" ) is a Fanyboy.

"At best, your argument shows that Mac crowd is not that bright, because, after all, they use it for consumer / productivity apps, which much cheaper PCs can accomplish just as well"

Consumer indeed, professional NO. Color management under Windows is still too unreliable for professional productions and pro video and audio apps mostly aren't there.

"Apple has always milked the moron tax on its users and the iTards are oblivious."

"it's late and I've spent all day debunking Apple Crap (Crapple)"

"your argument shows that Mac crowd is not that bright"

So much for rational discourse.

ibarsky,

I mis-pasted your quote.  I meant to quote this:

" The gamers Will spend on the highend, but the gamers are a niche and never dominated the market in the first place."

To which my reply was this:

Agreed.  My point was simply about the hypocritical anti-mac argument that's always dominated the web.  Of course, gaming belongs on consoles now with a shrinking niche of kids PC gaming, so it matters less than ever.

"IDC's numbers are wrong.  Plain and simple. Apple's Q108 numbers directly from them show 44% y-o-y growth in units"

OK, even if we take this 44% figure at face value, it still doesn't compute if you will.  Unit growth would still be lower than what Dell added during the same period making the figures your originally pointed out difficult to believe.

Dipsht,

Let's discuss. So, my point is never that Apple is "taking over" or that they're going to dominate.  My point is simply that Apple does incredibly well in the markets they choose to compete in.  That means consumers, content pros, education, small business (to a lesser extend) and a host of other niches like Life Sciences.

Is dell still shipping way more units, and growing by a larger number of units in absolute terms?  Yes.  But dell addresses corporate enterprises that buy in large quantities at razor-thin margins.  Those machines will never see the light of day with regards to the software developers I care about.  They're gonna run office and some internal vertical apps... and that's it.

What this all boils down to is a simple point.

Partisan mac-bashers and hacks like Waethorn and some of the others in this thread like to point to Apple's worldwide share as some sort of "proof" that "Macs suck".  I think it's pretty clear that, based on Apple's performance in the market segments it competes in, they clearly don't suck.  They're actually quite dominant.

Taking a industry as enormous and diverse as the computer business and making qualitative judgements from blunt raw numbers like worldwide share is ridiculous and frankly dishonest.  I'm not saying you do this, but clearly it's a common dork retort.  "ha, snort, well macs have 3% marketshare, so THERE".  GIve me a break.

A computer used to run an auto factory robot is so fundamentally different in use than one used by a consumer that they don't relate in any way.

Does this make sense to you?  Do you understand where I'm coming from here?

Ok, I'm going to prove all the Mac fanboy's wrong here for probably the umpteenth time:

This is what Apple sells:

MacBook Pro 15" 2.5GHz base w/ the following:

2.5GHz Core 2 Duo processor (I'm making a guess here, but I would imagine these are Penryn T9300's - somebody prove me wrong)

4GB DDR2-667 Dual-Channel RAM

200GB SATA 7200RPM Hard Drive

15" Glossy 1440x900 LCD (no charge extra for glossy - whatever)

USB modem (mine includes a modem, so I'm trying to be fair here)

3 Year AppleCare warranty

rest of the stuff is stock  (DVDRW, webcam, GF 8600GT 512MB, BT, 802.11n, 2xUSB, etc.)

On the Apple Canada webstore they sell for a whopping:  $3307!!  (LOL!)

Ok, and this is a very similar system that I sell:

Intel Core 2 Duo T9300 2.5GHz procssor

4GB DDR2-667 Dual-Channel RAM

200GB SATA 7200RPM Hard Drive w/ 1GB Intel Turbomemory Cache

DVDRW Dual-Layer Burner

GF 8600M GT 512MB

15" 1680x1050 Glossy LCD

2.0Mp webcam

Fingerprint reader

Bluetooth 2.1 + EDR

Firewire

ExpressCard 54

4x USB 2.0 ports

SVideo-out, VGA-out

USB charging capability for peripherals

No-latch "mag-seal" screen

Card reader

Intel 4965AGN

Gigabit Ethernet

v92 Modem

Vista Ultimate x64 SP1

Windows Live OneCare included

Notebook bag included

3 Year Warranty + Support

$1799.99 (Canadian dollars too)

There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that you can justify an extra $1500 expenditure for buying from Apple in that case - that's nearly DOUBLE!!!  For anyone with a system like that, they could easily get a legit copy of Adobe Creative Suite for that kind of extra money!

Oh, and I forgot to mention that mine's certified as "Centrino Mobile Technology".  Macs aren't.  Hell, Apple doesn't even list the proper Intel processor model numbers.

Sacred Cow:

If you bothered to look at anything I've posted, you'd see that I have more than just "anecdotal" stories. The evidence is quite clear.

blogs.zdnet.com/Ou

JohnPapola:

You obviously haven't read a lot of Paul's reviews then. He has said that in his opinion, the two are a draw: www.winsupersite.com/.../winvista_ff_wmm6.asp

This is very typical. Mac users can't win an argument so they change the subject or attack someone. Well I'm not going to let it happen. Lets STAY on topic, shall we? The purpose of this whole blog (all 65 words of it) was that you CAN find equivalent PC's that are far less expensive than Mac's with the same specs. That's the point, point proven, end of story. Good night!

"A computer used to run an auto factory robot is so fundamentally different in use than one used by a consumer that they don't relate in any way."

OK, and do you think that this is primarily where all of those Windows licenses are being sold?  Do those constitute such a large amount of the market?  Given Windows Vista's newness and higher processor needs, I don't think that any of the 140 million licenses sold are on any of those computers, and neither are many of them being sold to business in high volumes yet.  Everyone here always points to Windows being pre-installed.

"Does this make sense to you?  Do you understand where I'm coming from here?"

Yes it does, and yes I do.  However, being hyperbolic about numbers, which from your silence you are admitting that your previous numbers were wrong (prove me wrong, I'm a grownup, I can handle it), and trying to use that hyperbole to prove your point, or the point of the article is wrong and doesn't help your position.

"with regards to the software developers I care about"

Ahh, but does someone care about them?  I certainly do, and in fact, I care about them more than I care about software that I can run at home.  This has been an area that we have not seen eye to eye on, which is fine.  However, you and many others seem to insist that the Mac way is the only way.  This is not true.

"Taking a industry as enormous and diverse as the computer business and making qualitative judgements from blunt raw numbers like worldwide share is ridiculous and frankly dishonest."

I'm sure your (and others) reaction would be quite different if we were talking about the iPod, or if Apple had some decent worldwide numbers.  Typically I see kind of reaction to market share numbers because they don't help your cause.  However, when they do, ie, this article, quoting market share numbers are suddenly OK.  

John, you are very well reasoned, but you do occasionally throw out these very hyperbolic statements, and that is when I chime in.  In my eyes, they don't help the argument.

@Cfischer,

I love how you point to a review that's now two years old in which Paul's final conclusion is that Windows Movie Maker 6 is a draw with iMovie.  

"Is WMM 6 still superior to iMovie? In the years since WMM 2 first shipped, Apple has improved iMovie dramatically and the latest version at the time of this writing, iMovie HD 6, offers stunning integration with the other iLife applications, nice themes, effects, titles, and transitions, and has finally caught up with some WMM functionality. Apple was also an early mover to HD technologies, and iMovie's support of HD movies seems more polished than what we see in WMM 6. That said, it's basically a draw: iMovie by itself isn't enough to make any home movie makers switch to the Mac, and WMM 6 is certainly a capable enough solution that can handle any home user's needs." - paul

Hey, it may very well be superior.  I wouldn't know.  I use Final Cut Pro.

As for "changing the subject" or "attacking".  What are you talking about?  My whole post is about Mac market share and it's value proposition, which is the issue at hand here... not Windows Movie Maker.  And I don't recall attacking you, just suggesting that you don't have working experience with iLife.  Spec-sheet comparisons of software aren't a good basis for discussion.  Real use is.

@Waethorn,

Great for you.  You must be saving a ton of money by strictly advertising your business in blog comments.  I love how you marginalize the value of software like iLife and OSX, but herald BS marketing stickers like "Centrino Mobile Technology" and processor numbers as important features like anyone cares or should care.  Talk about drinking the coolaid.  Just get a MS/Intel tattoo across your forehead and be done with it.

Form factor matters too, you know.  The backlit keyboard is a great feature.  Having DVI out that support the 30" display instead of garbage long-outdated VGA is much better.  The magnetic power connector is another killer feature.  Firewire 800 is a must for me.  Then, of course, there's the software.  I save more than $1500 right off the bat with Final Cut Studio 2 over Avid on a PC.  Logic Studio for $499 is the audio deal of the century.

Comparing a brand vendor like Apple to a tiny white-box OEM like you isn't reasonable.  Comparisons to Dell and HP are much more useful.

But in fairness to you, that's quite a machine for that price.  No question.

Dpsht,

"OK, and do you think that this is primarily where all of those Windows licenses are being sold?"

No, I think most are being sold to the channel (not yet sold through to end users) and to consumers and small businesses.  My point is remains the same though.  There are thousands of Windows desktops here at Viacom.  They run office.  Thats it.  Office.  So while they're part of the overall market, they're invisible to most software makers as a market.  Vertical systems like that auto robot are extreme examples, but not much different than the average enterprise desktop.

There's very little that prevents someone working in an enterprise environment from coming home to a mac.  This is where Apple's dramatically larger consumer share kicks in and why the software ecosystem for Macs is very very healthy.

This is the whole point.

"Ahh, but does someone care about them?  I certainly do, and in fact, I care about them more than I care about software that I can run at home.  This has been an area that we have not seen eye to eye on, which is fine.  However, you and many others seem to insist that the Mac way is the only way.  This is not true."

Please elaborate.  I don't really understand what you're saying here.

"John, you are very well reasoned, but you do occasionally throw out these very hyperbolic statements, and that is when I chime in.  In my eyes, they don't help the argument."

Thank you and that's fine.  But where is the hyperbole?  Just point it out again so I can either step back or explain further.  The numbers I quoted were from the article in question and Apple's quarterly earnings report. Am I forgetting something?

johnpapola:

Those comments weren't directed at you.

Those quotes you make were also before iMovie 08 came out and they also don't contradict what was already sayd. Interesting that you don't use iMovie yet you defend it... odd. Although I use Movie Maker and Premiere.

I've also not made the statement that Mac's suck. I don't think they do. I think they are over-priced and over-rated, so I don't know where you got that idea either. Maybe I missed someone elses post, but I don't see it.

@Waethorn You forget to mention the Apple education discount and discounts widely available on Apple computers.  I managed to get 27% off the list on my Mac Pro.

Sorry not interested in Saturday night specials nor in what Intel is calling its chips today.

@CfFischer

Like DRWAM I find your comments way off-centre.

A trojan is a type of malware, not a virus.

I don't know any Mac owners who have had a virus on OS X.  On the other hand I hardly know any Windows users who have not had a virus.

Macs may be more vulnerable to viruses?  Last year I was in southern Afghanistan and I wore a Kevlar Helmet and Enhanced Body Armour.  I also spent some time on the beach on the Mediterranean and on Lake Huron in my swimsuit.  Technically I was more vulnerable to attack on the Mediterranean beach and Lake Huron beach, but the reality was something different.  When (and if) the situation changes Mac Users will put on the helmet and the body armour (Windows users have to already), but for now we will enjoy the sun and sand in our virusless domain.

Pwn2Own Yes, security ubergeek Dr Charlie Miller spent 3 weeks preparing an infected website and then spent two minutes manipulating a MacBook to succumb to the site.  It was as if you had a new BMW, spent 3 weeks building a brick wall and drove it into the brick wall.  It proves nothing.  BTW he mentioned that he could have just as easily done it with Vista and IE.  

www.builderau.com.au/.../0,339028227,339287733,00.htm

Sorry iLife beats anything available on Windows.

I specced up a Dell to a level similar to my Mac Pro.  The Dell came out about £60 more and was Butt Ugly (when I am spending £2,500 $5G it matters big time).  The Dell website is just terrible, a complete mess.

Macs are selling to consumers better than the commodity computers.  One of the reasons is that they have real software that real people use to do things they need to do.

"there is one difference that has me tempted to move over myself, and that is the existence of a real software market on the Mac. On Windows, this hardly exists. I know that sounds an outrageous statement, since there are hundreds of thousands of programs available for PCs. But almost all of these sell in tiny quantities: all the stuff you actually need to run your life on a Windows computer is either free or compulsory.

Web browsers are free, obviously. The same is true of most communications programs, whether messengers or email. The office software market consists almost entirely of Microsoft Office, which is either bundled or bought by your employer. If you are not using that, there is OpenOffice, which is free, and about which I've written previously (If this suite's such a success, why is it so buggy).

With the exception of some copy-protected music and graphics programs and some high-end programming tools, there's no more need to spend money on modern Windows software than there is on Linux; the cynic might say there was even less need, since I would pay happily for Linux software that was responsive to users' needs and not programmers'.

But Mac users do pay for the software they use. They even pay for their operating system upgrades. There is much less of a tradition of cost- bundling on Macs than on Windows, and the result has been that software is built to appeal to people spending their own money.

There are real alternatives to Microsoft Word, not just from Apple, such as (Mellel), a word processor for people who write books. There is an abundance of notetaking programs: this is also an area where there is a market on the PC, but it seems much less vigorous and innovative than on the Mac, partly because everything that grows sufficiently complex to be useful withers under the shadow of Outlook.

I know that Apple, just like Microsoft, has crushed utility programs by incorporating their functions into the operating system; but it has not been as strong, and so its malevolence has done less harm.

Perhaps the smaller size of the Mac marketplace explains its vigour and diversity. Most of the really interesting and useful programs in the world seem to have been produced by five people or fewer. There is no substitute for a programmer who talks with his customers directly, and they will only exist in a market where the customers are the users, and not the people running the users' employers' IT departments."

www.guardian.co.uk/.../apple.software

We have over 100,000 employees and about the most demanding work that the Windows machines use is Outlook and Word.  I need a lot more for the sort of work I do.  It is also nice to be able to talk to the developer and not have to wait 3 or 4 years for a new version or bug fix to come out.

The other thing is service and support.  Apple support is fantastic.  Most of the commodity machines have outsourced their support to the Indian subcontinent and frankly it leave a lot to be desired.

@DRWAM Finally I also upgraded to XP SP3 and it hangs terribly.  I have never had an OS X update do that.  Are they trying to break XP?

Cfischer,

I actually prefer iMovie 08.  It's not great for fine-tuned editing the way the previous version are with it's unconventional timeline.  But I use final cut for that since it's my job.  08 is really great for quickly pulling together longer clips from home movies and assembling them into a little montage.  It's also a very good home movie storage database with a simple, transparent file structure and useful thumbnail generation system.

I was reacting to your broad dismissal of iLife as a suite.  The ease of use, quality of rendering and templates, and seamless cross-app integration of iLIfe are what make it such a compelling consumer tool.  I use iWeb for johnpapola.com and find it to be the easiest solution for a flexible site design (though I'm basically just using a template on that site).

As with all things in desktop computing, the value in these tools is measured in their execution and their usefulness for specific purposes.  Vista is totally usable and can accomplish the same things OSX and it's apps can.  But the way the Mac OS and its apps are designed and work together on the platform I find to be superior in fit-and-finish, feel and execution.  We can drill into specifics, if you'd like, but I think we'd both be bored to tears.

I believe that you are reacting to some of the more inflammatory mac users out there. That's fine.  They can be just as partisan and blind as trolls like Waethorn.  But those of us that rationally choose the mac aren't stupid or technically illiterate.  There are many many reasons to choose the Mac, even with it's price premium.  And again, I resell my old macs, erasing that premium every time I upgrade.  Many of us do.

I was, however reminded of why I left Windows just this week.  I directed some videos that needs to be added into a powerpoint presentation.  I compressed them in WM9 format.  They played perfectly in WMP.  They played fine in Powerpoint, though drag-and-drop didn't embed them, so each time I had to go through the stupid menu system (PP 2003).  Then, after saving and re-opening, they wouldn't play.  Moving the folder broke the links (stupid. the clips aren't using relative file paths.  wtf).  I just became a big trial-and-error mess to get them to play.  The professional powerpoint person as well as everyone in adsales said that this BS was totally commonplace when adding videos to powerpoint and it was always a time-wasting headache unless you used .mpgs that looked like garbage with 1995-era video quality.  

A full day of time was wasted dicking around with these videos to get them to play and it was ultimately a matter of praying they'd work on the day of the presentation.  This is Microsoft's powerpower running on Microsoft Windows with Windows Media videos.... and it just barely worked.

Everyone involved would happily switch to the mac and use keynote if they could to avoid the HOURS of time lost to this nonsense.

That's the real world of Mac vs. Windows for me.  The Mac delivers under deadlines for the air.  Microsoft's most used application appears to barely handle the most rudimentary task without frustration.

"You must be saving a ton of money by strictly advertising your business in blog comments."

It's hardly advertising.  After all, you don't know where my store is, nor do you know its name.

"I love how you marginalize the value of software like iLife and OSX"

Er....Do you campaign for Jerry Yang?

"herald BS marketing stickers like "Centrino Mobile Technology" and processor numbers as important features like anyone cares or should care"

There's that anti-Intel sentiment again.  Geez, I thought we got rid of that when Intel was proven long ago that it thrashes the performance of PowerPC chips.

"The backlit keyboard is a great feature"

Gimmick.  If you have to look at the keyboard, then maybe this product is for you:  

www.broderbund.com/jump.jsp

"Having DVI out that support the 30" display instead of garbage long-outdated VGA is much better"

Talk about BS marketing for people that couldn't care less.

"The magnetic power connector is another killer feature"

You mean the one that people end up having problems with it, and falls apart?:

www.youtube.com/watch

Or that someone with flammable pants might indeed call it "killer"?:

gizmodo.com/.../macbook-magnetic-magsafe-connector-not-so-safe-after-all-161229.php

Or that people realize this so-called feature is a joke, so they have to invent something that actually defeats the purpose of it?:

www.youtube.com/watch

"Firewire 800 is a must for me"

All I have to say to that is *eSATA ALL THE WAY!*.  Honestly though, who uses Firewire anymore??!

...."Who throws salad?  Honestly."

"I save more than $1500 right off the bat with Final Cut Studio 2 over Avid on a PC."

Actually, you can get Adobe Creative Suite Production Premium along with one of my notebooks, for ~$200 over what you paid for your notebook alone!

"Comparing a brand vendor like Apple to a tiny white-box OEM like you isn't reasonable.  Comparisons to Dell and HP are much more useful."

I get notebook shells from the same ODM's as all three of those, so in fairness to you, you're wrong.

"You forget to mention the Apple education discount and discounts widely available on Apple computers.  I managed to get 27% off the list on my Mac Pro."

And which students can actually afford a realistic Mac Pro?  Did you actually buy it under the guise that you are a student, or do you honestly abide by Apple's terms of sale?

"Sorry not interested in Saturday night specials"

Who said they were?  I've been selling them for this price for the last 3 months.  Intel's mobile chipset refresh is just around the corner too, so prices will drop, and better technology will be shipping out the door.

"....nor in what Intel is calling its chips today."

That's the Mac ignorance we all know and, well, I can't honestly say "love" there.

A 2.6GHz Core 2 Duo processor from last year can easily be beaten by a 2.2GHz processor from this year.  Sorry, but it's true, and Apple won't even advertise that.  Mackie lemmings just fall in line too.

" Last year I was in southern Afghanistan and I wore a Kevlar Helmet and Enhanced Body Armour.  I also spent some time on the beach on the Mediterranean and on Lake Huron in my swimsuit.  Technically I was more vulnerable to attack on the Mediterranean beach and Lake Huron beach, but the reality was something different."

Yet it only takes one bullet in the heart to put you down.  On Lake Huron, you'd be bleeding to death.  With a kevlar vest, you might be suffering from shock with a couple of bruises, but you'd recover fully, and survive to get back on your feet.

Error message states that it cannot find the Boot OS again. It must be a failing hard drive. Thanks for the info. The darn thing resarted almost a dozen times last night after updates, but this morning gives me the error. Oh well, back the installation XP CD [it's a 3 yr old eMachine, so I think that Vista would be kinda slow. I wanted to install the new video card anyway. My daughter was hysterical that all her documents are gone. Again, thanks.

Doc

John:

I don't completely dismiss iLife. I think it's good, but in my experience not as good as the Windows side. That's all just personal experiences though. I've never used Keynote beyond opening it and playing around inside a little bit, but have never needed to use it anymore because I find Powerpoint one of the easiest to use programs on the planet! A few years back before I had ever even touched PowerPoint, my boss came to me and asked for something really advanced. Something with animations, integration in the website and embedded flash. All I did was use a few help files and in one day had this massive presentation. Easiest thing I ever did.

That's all my experience though.  You've obviously had different ones. I don't disrespect your choice at all. I'm not sure how iLife and Live Suite got into this discussion, but oh well.

Avro:

You might be surprised to know that I don't know any Windows users (personally) that have had a virus. Someone may not have told me, however many have told me they haven't. You also might be surprised to know that about half of the Mac users I know (a few dozen) have been hacked on their macs. Goes back to my previous point about security not being just about "viruses".

"A trojan is a type of malware, not a virus"

Lets not split hairs. Virus or malware

"I specced up a Dell to a level similar to my Mac Pro.  The Dell came out about £60"

I'd really like to see what you added to it to get that configuration.

"It was as if you had a new BMW, spent 3 weeks building a brick wall and drove it into the brick wall."

Actually, you have a point. Except the BMW didn't have airbags, seatbelts or insurance. Fortnately that Ford GT over there did... wait, is that Bill Gates inside? ;)

"There's that anti-Intel sentiment again.  Geez, I thought we got rid of that when Intel was proven long ago that it thrashes the performance of PowerPC chips."

What?  I love intel.  I wanted apple to ditch PowerPC for years before it happened.  But "Centrino Mobile Technology" is just marketing nonesense.  Explain for me what "Centrino Mobile Technology" is and how it make the PC you build better than the comparably equipped Macbook Pro.  You call this marketing buzzword out as if it has inherent value.  That's drinking the Koolaid.

The backlit keyboard is very useful and that doesn't mean I can't type.  Who are you to judge what's useful for other people?  Such IT dork arrogance.  

The difference between VGA and DVI isn't marketing.  A spec-sheet dork like yourself should know that.  You can see a real difference in quality on screen.  VGA connection are soft and noisy.  But since I question your taste, it doesn't surprise me that you don't care if your external monitor is crisp.  Again, this is 2008!  How can is NOT have DVI?  Does it have PS/2 and serial ports as well, wasting space?  Jesus, get out of the stone-age.  To spend $1800 bucks and not have digital output is a complete joke.

Magsafe is the greatest innovation in laptops ever as a person whose wife (could've been me, no dissing the mr.) destroyed her last laptop after tripping over the cord and pulling it to the ground.  If I had magsafe on that machine, I wouldn't have been out a grand.  And I know I'm no alone on that one.

But of course, a partisan hack would point to the tiny minority of people with a defective one.  You're the worst.  Though thanks for that link to the little adapter.  That looks pretty cool.

"Honestly though, who uses Firewire anymore??!"

Every single TV/film production company in New York and LA.  eSata is awesome, now show me a computer with built-in eSata and I'll give you the argument.  I for one like my external drives to be able to mount on unmodified computers.  But then, that's reality talking.  Not spec-sheet dork-land.

"Actually, you can get Adobe Creative Suite Production Premium along with one of my notebooks, for ~$200 over what you paid for your notebook alone!"

Great.  Too bad nobody in production gives a rat's @ss about adobe premiere.  Sorry.  It's got nothing on Final Cut Pro and the ecosystem built around it.

Why are you such a block-head, Waethorn?  Why are you determined to always spin everything about Apple negative?  And it is spin.  Stupid, nerd spin.

heh, vga on a high-end laptop.  That still gets me.

John:

My best friend (believe it or not) is an Apple fanatic. He has everything Apple, defends them to the death, will hardly ever consider anything than an Apple. He has a MBP, iPod Touch (32GB), Apple TV, Airport Extreme, swears by the Mighty Mouse etc. etc.... however he is a professional, full-time videographer and chooses to run Premiere on his last standing PC instead of Final Cut Pro on his Mac. His even Mac-happier friend who does video editing on the side feels the same way. My uncle (not a mac guy) is a videographer too and swears by Premiere. So it is being used by the Pro's.

@Waethorn

I have been dealing with Apple education for years and they know my student number and record.   I am currently doing postgrad work in IT FYI and my employer pays my tuition.  Makes the Mac Pro a lot more affordable.  We get fairly generous tax write-offs for it too.

It seems to have escaped your notice that being shot on the Canadian shore at Lake Huron or at Aya Napa is statistically the same as getting hit by Lightning - or for that matter a Mac getting a virus.

Give us some real benchmark tests please with real apps.  Not technobabble.

www.primatelabs.ca/.../mac-pro-performance-january-2008

What sort of support do you give?  Home pick up like Apple?  Home delivery like Apple?  Worldwide support like Apple?  Apple looks good to me.   Somehow I don't see your Saturday night special on this list!

www.macworld.com/.../consumer.html

"Error message states that it cannot find the Boot OS again. It must be a failing hard drive."

Run SpinRite @Level 5 on it!  Check the SMART status screen.  Watch for red blocks.  If you have any, your hard drive will fail.  Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but without a doubt it's on its way out!

"it's a 3 yr old eMachine, so I think that Vista would be kinda slow"

If it's a 1-yr old eMachine, Vista would be slow on it.  ;)

Really though, eMachines are known to put many a refurbished part in their systems - that's why they cost so little, and most of their systems have very low-end specs.  I've seen "new" eMachines systems cross my service counter many a time with hard drives with the label "factory recertified", or those Seagate labels with the blue borders around them (meaning they're refurbs).

"You also might be surprised to know that about half of the Mac users I know (a few dozen) have been hacked on their macs."

I might've mentioned this before, but anyway....

A friend of mine works for a corporate IT security firm, and he's told me that his firm has several back-door exploits on file that will attack OS X, and that Apple hasn't patched those holes ever since OS X 10.0.  The funny thing is that these are common Unix security issues, and remote code execution exploits are fairly common in the enterprise.  He even demonstrated a stock iMac being hacked by a Windows PC to me in his lab, where the display actually doesn't indicate any wrong-doing is going on.  What's also funny is that he could utilize remote X-Windows GUI's to access Mac folders graphically, with full administrative access, even though the user was logged on as limited.  Apple was made aware of a few of these exploits, but haven't patched any, and his firm is holding onto quite a few for "research".  Corporate security problems are NOT what you hear about on the news though - mostly just news about some new big virus that affects consumers (that's "home users", just so somebody doesn't think otherwise).

So far, he's been pretty impressed by Windows Vista.  His firm has actively been attacking it since release without many positive (or is that negative?) outcomes (meaning they can't hack it as easily).  So far, OS X is the least secure of any of the tested OS's that his firm researches.  Linux is second.  Surprisingly to some, XP w/ SP2/SP3 is more secure than either of those.  Windows Vista is the most secure of any though.  They've actually sat on several OS X exploits that still haven't been patched to this day, even in Leopard - many more that in even XP RTM!

@Cfischer,

I'm being a bit elitist here regarding Final Cut.  Certainly premiere is used for professional work.  So is media 100.  So is a host of other apps.  Even Vegas.  But Final Cut and Avid are the main players and the most mature products.  Film, broadcast and cable is pretty much all Avid or Final Cut.  I haven't been to a single facility larger or small that uses premiere.  Final Cut has over 1 million active registered users and I believe close to 70% of the entire editing market.

Just being at NAB this year revealed how huge Final Cut is.  Premiere isn't even in the ballpark.  It's a fine tool from what I hear now with Pro, but it's not close to Final Cut yet.  Prores alone makes it the winner.  10bit HD at 30MB/sec with mastering quality.  It's amazing.

Also, it's very interesting that Adobe ported their video suite back to the mac.  Just goes to show you how important the mac market is for third parties now, more than ever.  Even when Apple themselves are competing in a space.

Oh, and the mighty mouse sucks.  I love my Microsoft Mouse.

Not to mention that the Final Cut Studio 2 is the best value on earth.  Color is a $25,000 grading system included for no additional cost.  DVD Studio Pro is amazing.  Soundtrack Pro is incredibly powerful (if a bit buggy).  Motion 3 is no AE, but it's getting there and all with realtime in HD.  At half the price of Media Composer's cheapest option, it's just an unreal value.  The $$ saved can literally pay for a Mac Pro just with that.

Man, I still can't believe that Waethorn thinks having a "Centrino Mobile Technology" sticker is more important than having DVI in a high-end 2008 laptop.  Heh.  This guy is really something else.  Talk about buying into marketing.

@Avro,

Man, the memory performance on the new Mac Pros is nuts!  i can't wait to see what the Nehalem-based towers can do.

"Explain for me what "Centrino Mobile Technology" is and how it make the PC you build better than the comparably equipped Macbook Pro."

Intel Centrino is 3 Intel components:

1.  Intel mainstream mobile processor (previously Pentium M & Core Duo, now Core 2 Duo)

2.  Intel Chipset (presently Intel PM965 for discrete graphics, or GM965 for integrated graphics)

3.  Intel Wireless LAN module that matches the chipset (previously 3945ABG for 945 chipset, now 4965AGN for 965 chipset - the first digit is the generation, second is chipset)

All 3 items must be included in a mobile system, and it must also follow testing and validation by Intel.  Once it's validated, the system can carry the Centrino logo.  Mac's don't have a rigorous validation test, and also don't have the requirements to do so anyway.  Validation is extremely important in businesses.  Part of that validation is in mobile performance and battery life.  Intel knows their own components, but third-party hardware makers don't often do as extensive a testing as Intel does on their own hardware.

To put it in terms you can understand:  If you got an iPod speaker dock and it didn't have the "Made for iPod" logo, would you consider buying it over one that did, if the price was equal, or even lower?

Ya, I thought not.

"VGA connection are soft and noisy."

Sorry to say, but you're just plain wrong.  Maybe on some craptacular Mac-to-VGA adapter, but not on any decent video processor.  DVI may be better, but to say VGA is "noisy" is just a lie.  Sorry.

"Magsafe is the greatest innovation in laptops ever as a person whose wife (could've been me, no dissing the mr.) destroyed her last laptop after tripping over the cord and pulling it to the ground"

Stupidity could be not watching out for a cable on the floor, but even greater stupidity is putting it where people walk....

"eSata is awesome, now show me a computer with built-in eSata and I'll give you the argument"

EVERY SINGLE DESKTOP & SERVER SYSTEM I BUILD (some even have 2)!

Likewise, I offer the option for eSATA via ExpressCard on notebooks at point of sale.  Not much else requires ExpressCard when the notebooks I sell have everything already incorporated....

"Too bad nobody in production gives a rat's @ss about adobe premiere"

Ya, you know, cuz "nobody" = the Tonight Show, BBC, ABC News, The Discovery Channel, Martin Scorsece, Warner Bros.....

Ya, I guess those are "nobody's" in the industry....

Sure can't top the budget of the marketing dept. of "The Baywatch, Star Trek, & Wrestling Channel" (AKA Spike TV)....

"What sort of support do you give?"

Phone, email, and if necessary, even IM support (via WL Messenger)....hey, I like to keep business personal with my customers!

"Home pick up like Apple?  Home delivery like Apple?"

Actually, Apple doesn't provide that kind of support either (at least not in Canada - I checked).  They'd rather you take it to the most local Apple "Authorized Repair Center", which is about 1.5hrs away from me, and even farther for most.

"Worldwide support like Apple?"

"Worldwide" is another of those fake marketing terms.  Apple doesn't exist in every country, sorry to say.  In some countries that do offer support, there is only 1 support center - and in most (except for the US), you have to deliver the system yourself.  That's the case even in Canada.  Of course, there's only actually 4 actual Apple stores in Canada, and 3 of those are in Toronto.  Reseller stores that are "Authorized Repair Centers" are few and far between.

I am a local PC builder, and I cater to my own market.

"Somehow I don't see your Saturday night special on this list!....www.macworld.com"

Considering that's a Mac website, that claims the prize of Mactard Comment of the Week.

"Waethorn thinks having a "Centrino Mobile Technology" sticker is more important than having DVI in a high-end 2008 laptop."

LOL!

I never said that was my high-end laptop.  It was just something that competes favourably with the MacBook Pro - Apple's "high-end" notebook - for much less.  In fact, that's more an upper-mid-range notebook in PC specs.  Methinks you've been smokin' too much of those Apple leaves.

And yes, battery life on Intel Wireless is better than any third-party wireless module, sorry to say.  For **mobile users** (funny that, the audience notebooks are marketed towards) DVI is hardly an afterthought.

Besides, that still hardly justifies **$1500**!  :P

If someone wants to use a 30", or even a 65" monitor (I have a client that uses one of those new quad-HD TV sets - cost him a bundle), the processing power of a notebook just doesn't cut it.  For them, I offer very affordable Core 2 Quad desktop systems with much better video support (even HDMI).

Oh, but Apple would charge you $2400+ for the same kind of processing power....

....and $2099....for a 30" monitor....

LOL!  Just, LOL!

....but then you'd still only get DVI...

ROFLMFAO.

"the memory performance on the new Mac Pros is nuts"

btw:

NEWSFLASH!  FB-DIMM's are HORRIBLY slow!  latency is terrible compared to standard ECC DIMM's, which cost much less.

you should really try to keep up with this stuff though....you might actually save some money than throwing it out the window....

Thanks Waethorn. I just pulled a 120GB spare drive from my old G4 and just installed it into the eMachine. It's updating 100 updates for XP. I think that I will hold off on SP3 on it, but try SP3 my PC. BTW, as you suggested about eMachine quality, I had to replace the mobo when it died 14 months after I bought the computer at BestBuy. The replacement 845 board from eMachine and on line was $200, so I bought a better 865GVHZ mobo for $45 or less. Now the cheapo HD bites the dust. Since I upgraded the RAM and have a newer video card [instead of on board crap] there is very little left to replace. I purchased it as a birthday present for my then 5yr old. She will be 8 next month, so right now, I have THREE 7 year old daughters [the identical twins were born when the oldest was 10 1/2 months old]! I threw away my vitamins and no longer listen to the Pope.

Thanks,

Doc

johnpapola:

"I'm glad you think I'm usually reasonable, but that makes your direct insults all the weirder.  I'm not claiming people buy macs for games.  Obviously they don't.  What I'm saying is simple.  PC users bash the mac for being expensive, then (typically) they turn around point to games as a major missing element for the platform.  There's clear and obvious hypocrisy in those arguments because gaming PCs are very expensive, with graphics cards that exceed the average selling price of PC desktops"

I didn't mean to insult you, merely your argument.  I try to stay away from personal insults.

With respect to your point, again, no.  Gaming is missing from the Mac, and still it costs a lot.  Gaming PCs cost a lot, but they DO have gaming potential.

Gaming PCs vs. Consoles - that's a can of warms.  A lot of it is preference (input), a lot is the fact that there are different types of gaming, and a lot still is the fact that the upgrade cycle for consoles is much slower than that for gaming PCs and thus at the end of hte life cycle the consoles are bound to be outclassed by the PC in terms of capability and thus, hopefully, quality of titles.

@DRWAM

eMachines and Gateway both are notorious for using refurb'ed parts.

Now Acer owns them....

....and yes, replacement parts from any OEM are usually much higher than actual retail price.

Even HP will charge you up to $300 for out-of-warranty repairs.  HP requires a credit card on any service, but will charge you up to $300 on the fly without additional confirmation.  Anything above $300, and they'll call first.  So essentially, you can say that the $300 is a "minimum" repair cost.

@johnpapsmear

re: DVI

for those that absolutely need a digital connection on a machine that doesn't include it (or just to add an extra external connection):

www.tgdaily.com/.../135

Just so you know, this kind of technology has been in  devices for awhile now - some devices come with up to 4 monitor connections, others with full Vista Aero support (meaning they support DirectX9 Pixel Shader effects - no small feat for USB).

Obviously, you didn't do your research on these.

Bravo. Your description of Centrino Mobile certification fails to identify or verify any benefit compared to Apple laptops.  Apple is a premiere OEM with Intel, getting early and exclusive access to chips and sometime custom runs of chips, such as the smaller package used in the Macbook Air.  To assume that Apple and Intel aren't doing "rigorous testing" is... a stupid assumption.  Centrino branding was always just that.  Branding.  It was and is an effort to upsell OEMs on a package of chips in order to compete with wireless chip makers and northbridge makers.  It worked.  But it's more a branding thing than anything else and your effort to pitch it as a serious technical requirement doesn't pass the sniff test. Sorry.  You sound like a marketing hack for your company's goods and intel, not an objective person.

As for the visual difference between analog VGA and DVI, I've seen it with my own eyes with great cards and monitors.  There's a noticeable difference and excluding DVI is more of the same needless corner-cutting I've come to expect from many PCs.  To compromise on the connection to the monitor is just plain stupid.

As for eSata, isn't it great that you sell it with every machine.  Too bad you don't make every computer in use today.  In my world, firewire is dominant and 800 is saves me time by cutting down nasty progress bars.  

As for premiere, see my post above.  It's not as powerful or flexible or HD capable as Final Cut Pro.  Period.  I know our my business and Final Cut blows Premiere away.  And as a percentage of the overall editing market its tiny.  Since you're constantly harping on Apple's marketshare, I find it hypocritical for you to prop up Premiere in this context.

Slam my network if you'd like.  We haven't had baywatch since 2004.  DEA is a pretty good show... and we've got star wars now in addition to star trek!  Geek fun for all!  Only on Spike!

As for FB-DIMMs, I prefer actual application performance.  I seem to recall you bashing my purchase of an 8-core mac pro as a gimmick last year.  Well, a year later and year's worth of rendering... I can assure you I more than got my money's worth in time saved.  And was able to rip my entire DVD library two discs at a time at 80fps each in handbrake when I wasn't working (or sometimes when I was... gotta love real multitasking).

It is ridiculous that you're incapable of acknowledging that Apple does anything of value.  Utterly ridiculous.  I'd love to find out what material your head is made out of, because it must be the hardest stuff on earth.

@ibarskiy,

no offense taken.  I stand by my point having seen this "macs have no games" rant uttered for years.  People willing to pay a premium to pay games, yet dump on those of us willing to pay a premium to do creative work, or have quite, clutter-free desktops with nice looks and a great OS are hypocrits.

Still, nobody on this site is as big an insulting, ignorant jerk as Waethorn.  Just look at the childishness he pull with my name.  What a pathetic joke of a supposed adult.  I really only expect his kind of hardheaded, insult BS from 12 year-old trolls.  But he never seems to disappoint.  I guess being bullied in high school leads some nerds to anti-social ranting, irrational stubbornness  and petty name calling as adults.

I was thinking about buying a Macbook for my wife for her consulting business but the Lenovo Ideapad specs are really good at $1099.  It is hard to justify the added expense of buying a Macbook.

Lenovo IdeaPad Y510 77582FU

Processor: Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T5550 ( 1.83GHz 667MHz 2MB )

Windows Vista Home Premium

15.4 WXGA TFT with integrated camera LCD Glossy

NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT 256MB

4 GB PC2-5300 DDR2 SDRAM 667MHz

Hard drive: 250GB 5400

Optical device: DVD Recordable (Dual Layer) 24X Max

Bluetooth: Bluetooth Version 2.0 + EDR

Intel Wireless WiFi Link 4965AGN

Techboy,

Go with the macbook.  Leopard is worth the small price premium. At least try one out for a more extended period.

@ Waethorn

@CfFischer

I swear you guys make these things up as you go along.

Waethorn, I don't know where you live in Canada but from the sounds of it I can here the 'Deliverance' banjos playing in the background.  I was stationed in Rural Alberta for 2 years and never had a problem with my Mac, the reseller (who also did service) was 25 minutes away and actually paid me a housecall (no charge) to see how I was getting on with my new Mac.  My parents live in a small city in Canada.  Two resellers with service and repair within 15 minutes.  I was stationed in the Germany countryside and my Mac dealer was 18 km (about 11 miles away).  We had a problem with our Mac Power supply and had a new one within 3 hours.  For our Dell it took 2 weeks.

In England I had a cracked motherboard on a 2 year old G4.  Apple had the computer picked up within 90 minutes of the call and it was delivered back to me repaired in 48 hours.  Satisfaction rates for Macs in the UK run at 87%, the next highest brand is Lenovo at 64% (source Which? magazine our equivalent of Consumer Reports).  According to Consumer Reports the situation with Mac service and support seems to be similar across the pond.

www.primatelabs.ca/.../mac-pro-performance-january-2008

I have been working with high level comms security for the last 5 years.  Interesting to note that what  our top two security guys use.  One is a Linux User and the the other is a MacUser.  Ever listen to Computer radio show helplines?  Heard about all the Windows users hit by malware?  Listen to people at work?  Malware has a lot to do with stats.  You guys always crow about Windows having 97% of the market.  Guess who the bad guys target?  Anti-Malware?  You guys need it and it will slow your system to a crawl and give you loads of headaches.  We don't need it and I am glad that we do not need it.

@CfFischer  Look at the Dell UK site yourself, but only if you have a strong stomach and some headache pills.

@techboy 2000.  The specs of the Lenovo are good but satisfaction rates are not so good and you will be missing out on all that nice OS X experience and super software.

I am based in the UK and both me and my wife recently purchased a new laptop each, my wife bought an HP Dual Core 1.9ghz 2gb Ram 120gb HD, 15.4" Screen DVD Writter, Windows Vista Home Premium all for £379 and to be fair we could have reduced that cost to £329 if we opted for a celeron CPU. All my wife wants to do is Email, Surf the web, look at some photos and do a small amount on Word and Excel (which we purchased cheap through a volume license deal at work).  For what she wants to use this is more than enough, in fact the celeron based model would have still been more than enough for her, unfortunatly this came with Vista Basic, thats why we didnt buy it.

On the other hand I purchased a new MacBook, it cost me £699 it has the same size hard drive, slightly faster CPU, less memory, and a smaller scren, all for £320 more.

Now I am not saying that its not worth it for the Mac, but the price difference for the low end Mac an low end PC are huge, and most people out there the low end PC is fine, in fact probably over spec'd now adays

Now you might comment on the better software bundled with the Mac, but for the £320 saved, we could purchase some additional software for the PC and probably still save money.

So as you see for the normal person the low end PCs are fine, they dont care what runs on it as long as it works, and this is why they sell so much, it doesnt matter about built in graphics or anything like that, they simply work and do what is required.

Oh and the PC was purchased in a highstreet supermarket, the Mac had to be ordered over the web to get that price.

"Apple is a premiere OEM with Intel, getting early and exclusive access to chips "

Obviously you don't know your history very well - Apple was late to market with both Core Duo and Core 2 Duo chips.

"Apple branding was always just that.  Branding.  It was and is an effort to upsell end-users on a package of third-party parts in order to compete with major PC manufacturers.  It worked.  But it's more a branding thing than anything else and your effort to pitch it as a serious technical requirement doesn't pass the sniff test. Sorry.  You sound like a marketing hack for your company's goods and Apple, not an objective person."

There.  That's better.

"In my world, firewire is dominant"

Welcome to the world of John Papola.  Population: 1.

"It's not as powerful or flexible or HD capable as Final Cut Pro."

Where's the Blu-ray support?  Premiere Pro CS3 has had that all along, sorry to say!  Also, you fail to address the fact that major players do indeed use Premiere Pro, much to your chagrin.

"DEA is a pretty good show... and we've got star wars now in addition to star trek!  Geek fun for all!"

*yawn*....

"Only on Spike!"

Of course.  :P

I guess you pulled that marketing drivel from Spike's parent company slogan:  "Only on Fox!"

"As for FB-DIMMs, I prefer actual application performance."

Then you shouldn't be using them, plain and simple.  Latencies on FB-DIMM's are just plain terrible.  It's like stepping back to RAMBUS all over again.  Even standard dual-channel DDR2 is faster!  Hell, DDR2 speeds can go up to 1600MHz, even with ECC.

"Still, nobody on this site is as big an insulting, ignorant jerk as Waethorn.  Just look at the childishness he pull with my name.  What a pathetic joke of a supposed adult.  I really only expect his kind of hardheaded, insult BS from 12 year-old trolls.  But he never seems to disappoint."

LOL!

"I guess being bullied in high school leads some nerds to anti-social ranting, irrational stubbornness  and petty name calling as adults."

Pot meet mirror.

"I'm being a bit elitist here...."

Typical Mackie.

After talking to you, I can honestly say:  "You ain't better than anybody!"

"Welcome to the world of John Papola.  Population: 1"

At least you didn't childishly make fun of my name for the umteenth time.  Still, you don't know what you're talking about.  Anyone that wants to verify my credentials is welcome to do so.  I know what I'm talking about regarding media production and post.  You obviously live in a dream world where only the computers you build in Canada exist.  Most workstations in use don't have eSata.  end of story.  That really limits it's usefulness for me.  Not for everyone, obviously, and it's a superior connect to Firewire 800... but for me and my work, I'll stick with the fastest connection I can use in multiple places.

"Where's the Blu-ray support?  Premiere Pro CS3 has had that all along, sorry to say!"

Where's the professional market for blueray discs right now?  Who's using blueray as a client deliverable or screener?  Oh that's right... virtually nobody.  It's a nascent tech with a tiny installed base.  I deliver work for national air as uncompressed HD on HDCAM SR.  Bluray is irrelevant to production right now.  Hell, even wedding and event guys have little use for bluray given how few people own players.

But since you're a spec-sheet dork and not a working professional in media, you only know what you read in magazines and hear from vendors sales guys.  Which also addresses your rambling about ram latency.  Show me a system that can render faster than an 8 core Mac Pro in an ACTUAL APPLICATION and I'll try to care.  Show me one that multitasks during big compression jobs.  More spec sheet quotations don't impress anyone with a real job in media production, which is the main audience of the Mac Pro.

"You ain't better than anybody!"

Not sure I remember claiming to be "better" than anyone. I'm more rational and even handed than you, for sure. But I do know my field.  You obviously don't my field.  That you're claiming to have equal or superior knowledge of it as a little whitebox PC assembler just demonstrates that you're a pompous know-it-all with not a ounce of reason or humility.

"Spike's parent company slogan:  "Only on Fox!""

Wow, you really don't have a clue.  And yet you claim to know my business because you sell computers.  Ha.  Fox is owned by News Corp, Rupert Murdoch's company. I thought just about everyone knew that. Spike is an MTV Networks brand and is owned by Viacom.  A completely separate company that competes with News Corp and its channels, which include Fox, FX, Fox Sports Net, etc.  

But, then a simple google search would have cleared that up. Arrogance and ignorance are clearly not in short supply north of the border.

Oh yeah... and back to Premiere vs. Final Cut.

I'll take Final Cut 6 and it's prores codec which allows me to cut full-raster 10bit HD at SD datarates over bluray support any day of the week.  Cutting master-qualtiy 10bit HD is doable on a Macbook pro with a single firewire drive thanks to Apple's new prores codec.

... I think this topic is dead...

Maybe we should move it to the Forum? ;)

And so it goes.  Radio silence as Waethorn is once again revealed to be a blow-hard that's thin on facts.  Just like the last thread where he claimed Firefox dominated safari among mac users.  

Don't be so quick, jp. Our little WaeTroll is most assuredly Googling--er, make that "Microsoft Windows Live Searching" right now just as fast as his/her chubby little fingers can move in a valiant effort to disprove everything you say. I can almost read his words right now: "WRONG! Mackie Troll!"

Not that I'm mr. hot stuff or whatever.  But when it comes to post production, I know what I know.  And this guy doesn't know anything.

I was interviewed for a podcast recently that went over a bunch of this stuff.  If you're interested, check it out:

www.zoom-in.com/.../story_masons_john_papola

...and, yeah, that's shameless self promotion right there. ;)

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Are we *STILL* arguing about this?

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@RTE - No doubt. One is as bad as the other. I thought that the "lotsamystuff" vs. Waethorn battles were bad over on WinInfo...Geez, these guys truly need to get a life and care less about trying to prove each other wrong.

--tayme

@tayme & RTE,

Yeah, it's dumb.  No question.  I just like to argue, so it's stupid blowing of steam for me.

Two rhetorical questions:

#1.  Why does Waethorn feel so compellled to constantly weigh in on a platform he hates?

#2.  Why is he the common denominator here?

I personally just like the debate :D .... something you can get passionate about without offending someone, which is common in political and religious debates. This is just good, fun debating ;)

If you do get offended by it.... then, yikes!

@Cfischer83

It's not debating that bothers me. Beating dead horses on the other hand...

Interesting to note in the UK if you buy a Mac from through the education store, they include 3 years of AppleCare.  Pick up from home and delivery to your home.  I had to use it once when I had a cracked motherboard on my G4.  They picked it up, repaired it and delivered it in 48 hours.  It took Dell 2 weeks to replace a power supply.

@Avro - Speaking of beating a dead horse...you mentioned that in another post above...no need to reiterate. Like RTE said, the debate is not the problem...its the repetitive pi$$ing contest that fanboys on both sides seem to loke to get involved in that bugs me!

--tayme

"Most workstations in use don't have eSata.  end of story."

Sorry, but you're just plain wrong there - ANY system with SATA can easily include eSATA by using a simple SATA to eSATA bracket.  MANY systems already include these.  IEEE1394b , on the other hand, is almost entirely relegated to the Mac.  Even 1394a (that's OHCI-compatible "Firewire 400", for the uninformed) is being replaced on many desktop PC systems by eSATA because of 1394 obsolescense.

"Who's using blueray as a client deliverable"

It's called every movie studio making movies on HD right now and selling or renting them via movie stores.  (Hey, if you're going to call business users "consumers", then I'm going to call end-customers "clients", which they are)

"Show me a system that can render faster than an 8 core Mac Pro"

Easy.  Skulltrail with Core 2 Extremes with Windows Vista x64 (which runs NATIVE 64-bit)

Before you point out the cost, I'll easily show you that it's still cheaper to buy a preconfigured Skulltrail system from a system builder than an equivalent "8-core" 8GB Mac Pro.

"Show me one that multitasks during big compression jobs"

Actually, you can easily designate processing power using Windows Processor Manager - you can even designate CPU's, or even independent cores, on the fly, to particular processes.

"Fox is owned by News Corp, Rupert Murdoch's company."

Of course it is.  One is a genius.  The other is Sumner Redstone.

www.bloggingstocks.com/.../money-face-off-rupert-murdoch-vs-sumner-redstone

"Spike is an MTV Networks brand and is owned by Viacom....But, then a simple google search would have cleared that up."

Lucky for your argument, Google is still around after Viacom tried to sue them.  It doesn't matter though - Google will own Apple one day.

"Radio silence as Waethorn is once again revealed to be a blow-hard that's thin on facts."

Actually, I have work to do.  I have failed to see any new commercials of any worth on Spike lately, except for more on wrestling and Star Trek.  I just got another enterprise contract that I've been working on for the last week.

"Just like the last thread where he claimed Firefox dominated safari among mac users."

You obviously don't keep up, do you?

"I can almost read his words right now"

You mean like "STFU"?

"Why does Waethorn feel so compellled to constantly weigh in on a platform he hates?"

Why do you?

"Why is he the common denominator here?"

Why does a Mackie marketeer frequent a Windows site?  By my count, I belong here and you're the fanboy outsider.

"that's shameless self promotion right there...."

Oh ya, that's the reason....

"Why does a Mackie marketeer frequent a Windows site?  By my count, I belong here and you're the fanboy outsider."

Silly Waethorn. Take a look at the number of posts Paul has made on this blog with the "Apple" tag. When he stops, so will we.

And your use of "Mackie marketeer" is interesting, since you already revealed that one of YOUR marketing strategies is to hang out at the Apple store to evangelize your FrankenSystems to the unsuspecting. So once again: Pot, meet kettle.

"you already revealed that one of YOUR marketing strategies is to hang out at the Apple store"

By my own observations, Apple LOST those customers.  I'm only happy to take them on before someone else.

"FrankenSystems"

Silly losta.  Your Mac systems are made by many of the same ODM's and component manufacturers as my Windows systems.  So in fact, those customers are scrapping their "Mackensteins" for "FrankenSystems" (as you call them) that actually work.

#1.  I've never been to a post facility in New York or LA where eSata was on any of the machines.  True Firewire 800 is almost exclusively mac, but content creation is 80%+ mac... so that's all that matters for me.  I can bring my firewire 800 drive into any facility and mount it.  But, again, I'm not disputing that eSata is better.  It is.

#2.  Movie Studios making Bluray.  Jesus.  Listen to yourself.  You're arguing that Premiere Pro is better than Final Cut because it has bluray.  Then when I call out how useless bluray is for a working editor, you pull out Best Buy's store shelves as a retort.  Guess what, editors don't output their work right to the store shelves.  Obviously, Hollywood films don't output their bluray movies directly out of the edit.  This is an insane, illogical train of thought because I called you out and you have no real comeback.  Prores means more to post production than built in bluray.  Period.

#3. "Of course it is.  One is a enius.  the other is Sumner Redstone"..

Um, you do realize that everyone can read above right?  It's right there.  You claimed Spike was owned by Fox.  You're obviously wrong.  I don't even understand this reply.  It's just gibberish.  A simple "I was incorrect" would work, if you were anything other than a childish hard-head.  But hey, trying to redirect with some dig against Viacom is fine too.  It just reinforces that you're a tool.

#4. "Why does a Mackie marketeer frequent a Windows site"?

Um, maybe to stay informed on the world outside what I use, so I won't sound like an ignorant hack... like you.  I'm not a "marketeer", I'm a director.  But whatever.  Paul talks about Apple constantly on this blog.  The real question is why you engage in these Apple threads.  You can't answer that though.  You won't.  You'll just ignore it as you have every other indefensible load of tripe you've piled in these pages....

#5. on your ongoing claim that Firefox has more share than Safari on the mac....

Again.  You've proven nothing.  You've linked to nothing.  All information I've seen says the exact opposite. This is so obviously wrong, and yet you're acting like it's obviously right.  Up is down.  Black is white. Right is wrong.  I'd call that delusional.

#6.  "Your Mac systems are made by many of the same ODM's and component manufacturers as my Windows systems."

Silly Waethorn.  How many times must we say it's all about the software and the hardware DESIGN. We don't like Windows.  That's the point.  We're not alone.

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