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OEM's have been installing so called "crap-ware" for what, at least 26 years or so.

I don't see anything wrong with Microsoft and HP doing the deal as long as Microsoft didn't coherse or pay kick-back to HP for this.

I only wish that instead of automatically installing the "crap-ware" Microsoft and HP would instead create a dialog box upon first boot and give the end user a menu that allows them to install what "crap-ware" they want.

"I only wish that instead of automatically installing the "crap-ware" Microsoft and HP would instead create a dialog box upon first boot and give the end user a menu that allows them to install what "crap-ware" they want."

HP business notebooks do.  At least, you can blow away the Windows installation on the drive and the DVD's that they include are clean, completely unbranded copies of Windows (basically the same as any generic OEM System Builder disc, except that they're already activated with a pre-populated product key).  Most systems that ship with Windows Vista come with both 32-bit and 64-bit versions of Vista Business, AS WELL AS a copy of XP Professional (32-bit only, of course).  All of the drivers and additional software are on extra discs.

BTW Paul:  at least you can successfully remove the Windows Live Toolbar, unlike the uninstallable AOL garbage and numerous online shopping (ebay, etc.) icons that clutter some brands of notebooks.  Also note that if HP is partnering more with Windows Live, at least you won't have a secondary Yahoo search toolbar on the taskbar (HP used to use Yahoo, others sometimes included Google's).

Dells(except XPS) all come with Google crapware including desktop search which sucks compared to native search in Vista.

I wonder if this would have made headline's if Google or AOL expanded to HP(who's their current crapware provider btw?).  

"I don't see anything wrong with Microsoft and HP doing the deal as long as Microsoft didn't coherse or pay kick-back to HP for this."

And why the hell not?!

That's what name-brands do - they turn their computing platform into an advertising platform in order to subsidize the build cost to turn a greater profit in the end.  (Something I've been against, BTW).

Is it any wonder why a 1GB RAM machine with Windows Vista from HP, Sony, eMachines, or any other major OEM is a horrible experience?  1GB of RAM on Windows Vista Home Basic is fine for those looking for cloud-computing machine, and with a half-decent processor (P4+HT), is even fine for Windows Live software like Writer and Photo Gallery.  Just don't try stuff like Crysis or Photoshop on it, and it's just fine.  Office H&S 2007 is even acceptable.  RAM is cheap though, so not getting 2GB (<$50CDN) in a new system is kind of a larf.  Likewise, those 512MB budget systems from eMachines and the like should be taken off the market altogether.

...."Meanwhile, courts around the globe previously found that Microsoft had illegally bundled so-called middleware in Windows, therefore abusing its monopoly power. I'd point out that these middleware applications—IE, Outlook Express, Windows Messenger, etc.—are arguably "crapware" since they're just additional junk that shouldn't be forced on consumers."

Ah, but there are 2 things wrong with that statement:

First, OEM's were FORCED to take that software when they wanted to include 3rd-party software instead.  This time around, they're agreeing to side with Microsoft.

Second, when IE8 ships with 80% of the features that Windows Live Toolbar includes (blog selection, map selected address, search selected text, translate selected text, etc.), you'll be heralding the additions - which are then ultimately forced on consumers.

The other way of looking at this is that HP will be installing crapware on their machines regardless of what Microsoft do and so it's better (form Microsoft) that it's Microsoft crapware than Google/Yahoo/etc.

weed:  AOL is already partnered with HP.

On Sony notebooks, AOL software isn't removeable (short of a reformat and clean install).

....cue sx4sport's funny bϾϿble comments.

At first, I was going to rip HP and Microsoft a new one since they were making this "deal", but after reading some comments, I'm not so sure.

I do know that "advertising" (crapware) can reduce the cost of the hardware I purchase.  That is a good thing.  I would have said that the reduced cost doesn't outweigh the "crap", but when I hear that HP sends the disks......I'm happy.

I usually like to format a new computer and start from scratch to remove any possible crapware anyway, so why shouldn't I benefit from <stress>possible</stress> savings with little effect to me?

I [actually my wife and kids] use IE, Outlook express, so I am glad to have them pre-installed. Windows Live Search toolbar is pretty good. All in all, the average user probably benefits to have these preinstalled, as many of them may not know how/where to DL and/or install. AOL and Google toolbar can stay in cyberspace as far as I'm concerned. You have all read my many complaints about Google toolbar intrusion. Anyway, that's an average user's thoughts.

Everybody (Google, Yahoo) else does it... so why not MSFT?  I say good for them.  Although I agree with above comments that upon initial startup the PC maker should give you the options of installing each of the "crap"-onents, choosing what you want to install if any.  THAT should be a law.

"That's what name-brands do - they turn their computing platform into an advertising platform in order to subsidize the build cost to turn a greater profit in the end.  (Something I've been against, BTW)."

You're against profit? I guess you give your systems away then. Or are you just jealous that you can't attach brand value to the "Waethorn's Bargain Basement PC Hut" label?

I don't know what people expect. You get what you pay for, and when I bought my DELL, I knew it was going to come preloaded with a lot of useless garbage. It ain't pretty, but conversely, it's not like it's hurting anything, and if it makes the PC cheaper, all the better (I suppose). I think everyone understands it's just part of the economics of the Windows ecosystem.

I don't see how preventing OEMs from installing crapware is illegal.  Microsoft could make a very good argument that crapware is destroying their brand and costing them market share.  Have they ever even *asked* OEMs to stop installing this junk?

How about this: The default for any system ordered from a large OEM is no crapware.  The OEM can put a big red button on the order page that says you get a $50 discount if you allow crapware on your PC.  Then at least people have a choice.  Use a computer that works, or save $50 and buy one that has problems.

Just to clarify - crapware breaks PCs.  I don't mean things like IE7 or Outlook Express.  I mean things like browser toolbars, third-party network and power management utilities,  all-in-one security suites, space-wasting applications with unnecessary services and so on.

The most time consuming and irritating part of setting up my mother-in-law's new HP laptop was getting rid of the bewildering and confusing barrage of crapware that came with it. It seemed as if every program needed to ask questions after the first boot. In short, the initial experience is crap. Adding to the problem was the pre-installed trial version of Office 2007. Office 2007 is great, but my mother-in-law already had a copy of Office 2003 so I installed it not yet realizing that Office 2007 Trial was already installed. When I realized this I removed Office 2007 which blew away the extensive autotext settings which we had setup (she's a doctor and has a lot of boilerplate text). Just when you think you've uninstalled the crapware, a stupid pop-up reminds to update xyz program. After some searching through all of the startup programs we finally decrappified her computer, but the process sucked. If I ever need to restore from the recovery partition, it won't be fun because all this crap is installed automatically again. This type of experience is almost enough to drive a person to a different platform.

With any new computer I get:

GParted to truly clean the drive then a complete reinstall of bare bones Windows.  A pain?  Yes.  Crapware?  No :)

I don't like bloat and crapware anymore then you but this leads to cheaper PC's in the market. The way I see it you have 2 options.

1. Insert Windows disk and perform clean install

2. For the less inclined run PC Decrapifier (made just for this situation)

http://pcdecrapifier.com/

The may be too rational for some of you though

What? IE, Outlook Express and Windows Messenger are crapware...? No Paul, they are not.

In a world that most people think MS Office is part of Windows (and they're angry when it is NOT installed in their PC), these are not crapware - they are the minimum funcionality that people expect from their PCs.

If not, can you please tell me: how are the users going to get the applications they want if the OS does not even includes a browser? Send an email to you ? No, wait, without Outlook Express they can't do that either! :-)

Anyway, regarding The Live Toolbar, you are right, it IS crapware. But most people do not complain about this. Your typical (real) crapware is Norton, crippled versions of Nero (in Europe) and Real Player...

@rmarrano -- I'd like lower cost *and* a good initial experience. Is that too much to ask? Good tip on the pcdecrapifier site. It's good for people who know PC's well. As for inserting the Windows disk and performing a clean install, most consumer PCs don't come with an install disk, just a recovery partition that allows you to reinstall the OS, crapware and all.

Recover Disk: In my case, I would always insist on the Windows reinstall disc.  I tried out the decrapifier and (based on one run), not bad.

Still, always helps to have a Live disc of GParted handy to get a "squeaky clean" disk (it can even help you get rid of the hidden partitions the Windows install disc can't see)

"You're against profit? I guess you give your systems away then. Or are you just jealous that you can't attach brand value to the "Waethorn's Bargain Basement PC Hut" label?"

Actually, as I've proven time and time again, my systems are still cheaper, and yet I make a healthy profit.  By the way, as you can not read, I stated that I am against methods of profiteering, if it detracts from the user experience, not profit itself.  I make money honestly.  The company that makes your computing platform of choice does not.

"I'd like lower cost *and* a good initial experience. Is that too much to ask?"

No, it isn't.  We should talk....

@RaggieSoft. My sentiments exactly,. Even easier, for those with experience they should  buy an N series Dell and BYOS.

If anyone else can think of a better way, I encourage you to market it and become the next Michael Dell.

HP is definitely one of the worst companies around when it comes to crapware. We bought a Compaq PC about a year ago (for those of you who didn't know, HP bought Compaq) and the HP Total Care Advisor would be running at 100% CPU until you deleted its process. Plus, an HP add-on was forcing the Welcome Center to run at every boot, an annoying problem that took me weeks to solve. The extortion-based games are a joke, and -- guess what? They bundled the Yahoo toolbar.

So from that standpoint, I'm happy to see the Yahoo toolbar being replaced with something more capable. It's a step in the right direction functionalty-wise. The legal grounds are, however, dubious at best, and I'd say more dubious than for IE, Outlook Express, Windows Messenger, etc.

Everybody (Google, Yahoo) else does it... so why not MSFT?  I say good for them.

=====

Agree. If users are going to get "crapware" anyway, why cannot that be from MSFT? If HP didn't install live toolbar, it will install e.g. google toolbar instead, so the results would be the same, whether MSFT made a deal with HP or not. And it is funny to say "Windows Live Search itself--should succeed or fail on its own", please tell me why? I have been tired of bundled google toolbar almost everywhere found in a new PC or other softwares (e.g. during installing realplayer it would ask to whether to install google toolbar as well.)

Just a quick observation...

It's funny how the Mac fanboys that criticize Paul for being "biased" disappear everytime he does point out a negative about PCs.

Anyways, crapware sucks, and I would personally just reinstall Windows, however for some people this isn't really an option as they don't know what they are doing.  I just don't think it's fair to take advantage of these peoples technological ignorance.

First off, I'm not a fanboy ;)  

Second, I've just sat back and had a good laugh.  Reading your posts is like watching two brother fight over a girl.  

Paul is criticizing MS, good for him, he should do it more often.  I haven't chimed in because I find it funny that many of you are actually debating this, I my view crapware sucks and companies that foist it on their customers are doing their long term interest a disservice.  

Here are my observations.

My Mac came with only two pieces of what could arguably be called crapware.  A trial to MS office, and a trial to iWorks.  Both of which could be uninstalled by dragging their icons to the trash.  Did this upset me?  Not really, I think both programs are pretty good, verging on great and therefore feel that a trial version is a good is a benefit to a new user.

That being said, I find it funny that people are arguing about the value of crapware.  For example, the main argument in favor of crapware is that it lowers the cost of the computer for the consumer.  How much do you think it lowers the cost? A dollar? Ten dollars? A hundred Dollars?  It's probably closer to ten bucks.  For that ten dollar savings you get to uninstall and perhaps reload all the software that you actually want?

How long does that take? Let's say two hours.  So you're earning a whopping five dollars an hour to uninstall crapware?  

This is my continued argument I have with PC people who will admit that Apple makes a nice machine, that it is in many ways superior, but that they don't want to spend the extra money on a Mac.  They fail to recognize what value is.  

Apple provides its customers VALUE, not the cheapest, simply the most value oriented computing experience.  

When a new Mac shows up at my house it is joyous occasion.  I am downright giddy.  I boot the mac for the first time and with in minutes, not hours, I am using my new machine and enjoying it.  What is the value in that?  

In my mind it is worth a heck of a lot more than ten bucks.

Regards

Joe Dokes

I don't understand why Microsoft gets the special treatment - I've yet to see a PC in the past 5 years or so that doesn't come with either Google or Yahoo toolbar and all that loveliness installed. If it's going to be some company, I don't see why it shouldn't be Microsoft.

Rumor has it that they're bundling the toolbar as a way to get silverlight on the machines instead of flash. I wish I had the link to that...

Here it is: arstechnica.com/.../20080602-new-hp-microsoft-live-search-deal-is-all-about-silverlight.html

I'll leave it to you to decide if that's the real motive behind bundling the toolbar.

Windows itself is the biggest crapware on a box.

@drylight - Again, you bring nothing to the table except ignorant troll rants. Why don't you take some time and describe what you don't like about Windows...what issues you have with it not performing up to your expectations...you know; an intelligent, adult exchange of ideas rather than the rants of a zit faced teenager hanging out in the basement playing on Daddy's Mac?

--tayme

I am evenly split on this issue. On the one hand, I absolutely hate the "crapware" on any notebook, desktop, or any other format. On the otherhand, I can see why they do it. They want to advertise, help reduce cost, generate revenue, etc. But if I have to make a choice, I have to agree with some of the Mac guys on here. None of this crapware has any business on a brand new PC. If Apple only puts bonafied trial software of legitimate products, this is one thing I would love emulated in the Windows World.

My solution to this, is something Microsoft used to do but curiously quit doing in favor of Ultimate Extras. I remember that back in the day, Microsoft used to release a Plus CD of extras. Sometimes they had useful utilities, games, or other extras. Why don't these companies like HP, Dell, Lenovo, Yahoo, Google, Microsoft, AOL, and the rest just create Plus-like CD/DVD that are included in new PC/Notebook puchases? If they don't want the physical media expense, why not include a link to a website in the OS where you can download these programs? The website must include a removal tool that completely eliminates any program they offer. It should also offer you a chance to delete the link in the OS as well.

I'm not opposed to HP, Dell, Google, Yahoo, MS, or any of those guys making a buck or advertising additional programs or applications. But please give me the owner of the equipment my right to pick and choose. It could even be done with a mini app that launches on the first time and doens't come up unless specifically clicked on. There are many ways to achieve their objective, without cluttering new machines with junk. Perhaps if they also improved drastically the quality and killed the resouce hogging, people would be more opened to trying them.

@ tristanh

No, its more like Apple fans only take Paul to task when he gets on his "anti Apple Soapbox" and pretends to be unbiased and above the fray that he, himself causes.

Crapware on a PC has nothing to do with Apple fans should why should they chime in? Stay on target.

@Dude1313

The point was that the next time Paul does criticize Apple for something stupid that it is doing, the Mac fanboys will jump all over him and call him biased, ignoring the fact that he does criticize MS when it is waranted.  I'm not saying that the Mac fanboys should be chiming in on this one, but they should take note of it and realize that they are the ones with the biases.

"Perhaps if they also improved drastically the quality and killed the resource hogging, people would be more opened to trying them."

Yep, this is exactly why I won't try a lot of of apps, especially since they don't seem to be removed in their entirety.

Another thought is that this can be sort of considered a feature of Windows [like the 300 added Leopard features], since it's from MS. Use it or not. But I would prefer an app or feature from the maker of my OS over that of a 3rd party...usually, unless it sucks a lot. Wrong or right, I just have more confidence that it won't be a resource hog or spyware when it comes from the mothership.

@tristanh

Not trying to pic a fight but wondering this: Does the reverse apply then? Will the Windows fanboys restrain themselves when Paul crtitcizes Apple?

I also disagree that Paul criticizes MS. Oh it looks good on the outside but he knows where his bread & butter is as it were...

Sad thing is Paul is capable of some well thought out reasoning but what he dislikes, man does he ever dislike and does so from emotion rather then reason. His Apple rants, his Wii rants are all the same thing.

Case in point, the cheap shots lately at Walt? Pure bush league.

Personally, I have no problem with any of Paul's rants. At least in the United States, his comments are clearly protected under the 1st ammendment of the Bill of Rights. Considering how vocal Apple's hard core supporters are, shouldn't we as Windows users have a voice speaking for us? Paul does so and perhaps Mac fans don't want to hear it. To that I say, tough. If you can't take the heat, don't pick up a gun. Frankly, some of the most illogical and namecalling on these blogs have come from both sides. Frankly, I prefer opinions backed up by fact and experience.

I know Windows or MS isn't anywhere near perfect. They have broken the law and there are some clear advantages to the Mac OS system. However, we do have the right to poke fun of, tear arguments apart with logic, and criticise Apple. That makes Jobs, Leopard, and its most illogical supports open season. However, there are many who come on here and make valid points. This is how democracy works when its done right.

As for his comments on  the Wii, Paul does make one good point. Selling hardware is great, however if that hardware sales doesn't translate to software sales of games, then its a moot point. MS Xbox 360 has been outpacing software sales of Wii software slaes in the long run. If that changes, then we'll have something more to say. The questions of the longevity of all 3 systems are fair game. What you see is a cheapshot, I see as fair criticism.

To quote Obi-Wan, "Many of the truths we cling to greatly depend on our point of view."