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Been running vista since launch on 3 computers

Mac Book

an Old P4 with a dx9 graphics card and 1GB ram

and a new core 2 duo

all have worked flawlessly since install and I have had ZERO driver issues

The Zune comment is one that kinda irks me slightly.  Having just bought one last Friday (Canadian release finally), I love the little player.  Much more than I did my 3rd Gen Nano.

It does everything I want it to, does it very elegantly, and I know than when MS releases V3 of the software, I'll most likely be able to apply it to my unit and have all the new stuff as well.

Seems to me by that comment is that even people within MS fault the Zune for not being an iPod (or at least fault it for not being iPod popular).

I think Apple is completely vulnerable in two ways:

A) Mac User could be shown on a train with wads of cash flying out of his wallet and out the window. "Windows: keeps money from flying out of your wallet."

B) iPod guy is sitting in a little 3ft cube cage while Zune guy is dancing around hilariously to songs like George Michael's "Freedom" or The Soup Dragon's version of "I'm Free". Key in on the fact that iPod users are shackled to iTunes and other constraints of the platform. "Free your self...with Zune".

Zune definitely needs some more work... but I really like mine as well.  Started with the Zune30 (which REALLY needed work at the time) and now with my Zune 80 I'm super happy.

I also found my upgrade experience with Vista to be very easy.  I'm running it on all my non-Mac machines and I'm definitely happy.

The moment I realized the Vista perception problem was when my Dad was going to buy a new computer... he's not that tech savvy... and he said can I get a new computer with XP cuz obviously Vista is terrible.  I said "Why?"  ... his response was a number of friends opinions saying so (incidentally, none of which were running Vista)... I told him to ignore them and buy a new machine with Vista.  He did and he LOVES it.

It's amazing that for so long MSFT was regarded as the "Master Marketer"... and now that image is completely gone.

Oh "iCabal"...  Will it never cease?

Microsoft will not be able to change their image with consumers because they aren't structured to interact with the consumer.  They are a business built on selling to other businesses and letting those business take the heat with the consumer.

Nothing hurts the Microsoft platform brand more than the shameful and ridiculous finger-pointing and run-around that many people still encounter from Windows PC tech support.  Microsoft is a platform and API company.  They are a company built on scale through dominance.  They are not a company of intimate customer interaction.  If Apple had 95% marketshare of the desktop, they would be the same way.

So boo hoo.  Microsoft chose their road and have been reaping the outsized financial rewards for decades with 80% profit margins on Windows and Office.  You can't be the giant gorilla in the biggest tech market and ALSO be the company everyone loves.  IT'S NOT POSSIBLE.  But this is more Apple/Google envy at work. They want to be a monopoly AND be loved like Apple and Google.  They just can't stomach that an influential minority prefers other people's brands.  It's pretty ludicrous.

If Vista works great, that's wonderful.  That's an accomplishment.  If Apple is poking fun in order to get attention to their minority platform, that's to be expected.  If it resonates with people, that's worthy of worry.  But love doesn't come easy to Goliath.  People love David. And in the world of computing, Apple is still considered David.

Nobody is 'shackled to iTunes' although I think that you mean the iTunes Music Store. While I own 4 Sansa's and 2 iPods, not one song was purchased from iTunes Music Store, as they all were ripped from CD's. iTunes is just an application used to load your iPod, just as other many players use their own proprietary app. Personally, I hate the iTunes app, ,but even the new Sansa'a need an app. I can work around it with Vista [thank god], but not on XP. This just proves John's point that 'love doesn't come easy to Goliath', although I find the iTunes app itself less user friendly then using Vista to directly load the ripped CD music.

Since the majority of the market uses Windows, i actually think that there is no problem with image. On the contrary, Apple has a bad image with enterprise, if no one will switch. Why does my group use all Windows based computers, well, because they 'just work'. Duh. Also, there is just no Apple solution for all our medical apps, billing apps and most all the other IT stuff. Would we even be willing to switch to Apple? Nope, but I do use it at home. Will my next computer be a Mac? Nope, because I already have a Pro Tower and would rather have a second less expensive Vista PC for backup, since my average user style does almost nothing different on a PC. than I use on the Mac.

@johnpapola

I would say that Microsoft is structured far better to interact with their customers. Not only do they provide TechNet and MSDN, but almost all of their developers have company (and personal) blogs where they interact directly with the public. I have found the developers to be kind enough to directly answer emailed questions as well. That's a far cry from the secretive Apple world. Just take a look at the Microsoft Flight Simulator team, the WHS team or the Vista team blogs for example of how actively Microsoft talks with customers. The best example out of all of these is the 360 team (thanks to Major Nelson). He shows up on blogs, appears on many podcasts, and writes his own blog.

Their image, as far as customers are concerned, is utterly terrible. Most people have never dealt directly with the 'company' as Mac users feel they are doing at the Apple stores. After all, there are no Microsoft retail stores to get your fixins or support. :)

This reminds me of a video that Long Zhen posted some time ago about a spec ad for the Zune that never became a bona-fide ad for the Zune.  It is quite emotional and just the right type of ad that can help to change perceptions.  I think that MS needs to be doing ads like this.  

www.istartedsomething.com/.../zune-spec-spot-music-is-life

Paul, you are correct about the Apple ads.  While cute, they do nothing to really tell you how the Mac is better, but rather just bash the competition, and that type of arrogance flows all the way from the top.  It's kind of the like the cutthroat copier business.  Everyone just bashes the other brands, and it is quite annoying.

@Loiosh Great points...

@Dipsh t Admin  That's agreat ad... uh non-ad

There have been numerous reports of Vista users having compatibility problems - with printers, software, etc.  That's really how this all got started.  It wasn't pretend or make believe.  Sure, Apple jumped on it with their ads - but those aren't powerful enough to create a complete fiction - at best they can reinforce a belief that's already out there based on people's experiences.  

Note also that many professional reviewers have said bad things about Vista.

There's also a general feeling - held by ordinary users that don't care much about computers -- that it changes things, without really improving things (i.e, making it easier).

As for the iCabal - ordinary users don't even know these people exist or, if they do, don't frequent the communication channels where they make their opinions known.  So these people are a dubious explanation for Vista's "bad rap."

"While cute, they do nothing to really tell you how the Mac is better, but rather just bash the competition"

I think it's kinda obvious the message is X, Y and Z are wrong with Vista - and implicitly (and often explicitly) those same problems don't exist with Apple.  This is not rocket science.  Anybody can see that's the message - I guess except people who don't like the ads because they conflict with their world view.

@cesjr - "There's also a general feeling - held by ordinary users that don't care much about computers -- that it changes things, without really improving things (i.e, making it easier)."

This is also one of the reasons that Macs have not taken off as the dominant computing platform. They have not shown what it is that they do that improves the computing experience...they  come across as cocky in the PC vs Mac ads...to both techies and non-techies. I have had people ask me what is better about using a Mac than a "regular" PC, because they can't tell from those ads. From experience I can tell them that not much is better, only different...but that if they are prone to loading their PC with malware by unsafe browsing...then a Mac may serve them better. That is all I can think of to say. Is it because Macs are inherently more secure...probably not; more likely it is that the target is smaller, so the black hats don't go after OS X.

--tayme

Oh...and this is coming from a guy that just purchased his 6th Mac since the system 7 days and prior to that owned at least 4 different Apple II systems.

--tayme

Tayme,

As long as you are here, I was wondering, why have you not claimed that Paul's argument that "perception" (rather than reality) is the problem with Vista is subjective opinion.  I mean - he certainly has not advanced any objective data in support of that thesis.

Sorry guys, but it seems painfully obvious that you only bring the "it's subjective opinion" card or "lack of objective measurement" gambit when somebody is articulating a view you don't like.  When someone says what you want to hear that's subjective opinion and unsupported by objective data, there's complete radio silence from you guys and you just knod your heads.

@cesjr I understand your point of view and while I think the problems were far fewer than initially reported pretty much all of those issues are NOW a thing of the past.  FWIW I upgraded 3 machines right away with VistaUltimate without a hitch... printers, webcams, mice all worked w/o issue.  Maybe I got lucky... but today those issues are resolved in Vista from where I sit. (this coming from a Mac and PC user but mostly PC)

We have objective data that not only Vista is more secure, but that it actually runs faster than XP SP2 and SP3 for games. Both of those articles are available on Arstechnica and slashdot. People are welcome to argue the value of other additions (superfetch, Vista defrag, Media Center, the new backup system, Gaming for Windows, DX10), but the facts are Vista is better than XP. It games faster. It is more secure.

As for driver compatibility, that is a common user misconception that came from disappoint from a large number of companies (HP, Dell, Nvidia, I'm looking at you guys) either refusing to update hardware drivers for Vista (HP!) or not having readied their drivers for launch (Nvidia). All of these issues are fixed.

Users are not being told to avoid Leopard because of the NFS directory unverified delete issue (fixed in 10.5.1) ,instabilities for MacBooks (mostly addressed in 10.5.2), or the large (over 200) fixes in 10.5.3 (arstechnica.com/.../apples-10-5-3-update-is-finally-signed-sealed-delivered) all of which were launch issues. They're told that it is fine, now, so go out and use it.

Shouldn't we use the same criteria for recommending Vista post SP1?

@cesjr - That is because it is obvious to me that is Paul's opinion...this is after all, HIS BLOG. My debate with you last week regarding opinion was due to your belief that:

a.  Your opinion was the only correct opinion.

b.  People that use standard cell phones have no opinion - or that they don't matter.

c.  Your debate tactics are flawed and would never score a point in a competitive debate. Your statements are not detailed enough and are often inaccurate.

That was it...nothing more. Like I said above...I have people ask me for advice regularly when they are buying a new PC...lately the question has been something like "What is it that makes a Mac better than a Vista PC?" I gave my standard answer above...to me, that shows that Apple is creating a perception that PC's running Vista just plain don't work...And, I can show them the reality that they do indeed work...and work well. Like I also said above, I have recommended Macs to people that tend to have major malware problems...but those are generally people that have PCs that I did not set up or that they have unsafe browsing habits.

--tayme

Tayme,

So you're saying that Paul can freely make arguments -- about whether something is true or correct and other people are wrong -- that constitute unsupported subjective opinion, but a different standard of proof applies to anyone challenging his arguments.  Why?  Because it's his blog - a lower standard of proof applies to him?

"Your opinion was the only correct opinion."  The same could equally be said of Paul - he think's his view that Vista's bad rap is undeserved and not based on real problems is the only correct view (or only correct opinion, whatever you want to call it).  Yet, there's no complaints from you.

Again, it's obvious that you selectively apply standards of proof, depending on whether you like the message or not.

@Loiosh

MSDN and TechNet are *specifically*  business oriented.  MSDN is aimed at Developers and TechNet is aimed at IT Pros.  However, I do agree that Microsoft's developers are responsive and willing to answer e-mail from the public.

I've said it before, but Microsoft's primary problem is with A-list bloggers.  The Internet's cool kids don't like Microsoft, so everything Microsoft does automatically "sucks."  Nearly all of Vista's negative press coverage was amplified and echoed from the "Microsoft sucks" meme started by a relatively few number of people.  Apple's ads (which are hilarious) merely reinforced a meme that was already running.

How does Microsoft fix this problem?  I don't have any good answers and obviously, they don't either.  I'd start by going back to Vista's release - figure out where the "Vista sucks" thing actually started and then talk directly to the people who started it.  Find out what problems they had and whether those problems have been addressed.

Second, Microsoft needs to talk directly to IT Managers who haven't or won't deploy Vista.  Find out if they won't deploy because of Vista's image or because they've had specific problems.  Again, go back and fix the problems that people have had.

Finally, Microsoft should start an ad campaign centered on Vista's looks, features and reliability.  Vista has been much, much more reliable than XP for me.  The search features make finding programs and information easy.  Unlike XP, Vista doesn't look like a child's toy.  Vista: Reliable, Easy, Good looking.

@Cesjr

Just to be clear, it is my *opinion* that Vista's problems are perception more than reality.  My opinion is based on running or managing a 7 or 8 different Vista machines.  All but one of the machines had essentially no problems.  One of the machines did have a persistent data corruption problem that I do not attribute to the OS, although I was unable to find the cause.

Mac vs PC? Well, I know what "just works" (for me, at least)...

One of the things that always makes me laugh is stuff like this: www.sonypictures.com/.../popup.html

FOUR steps to put an image as desktop in a Mac vs ONE (!) in Windows... LOL

Here's what the new TV ad should be. A geeky actor with a nice babe beside him, has Vista running on a Mac, and says " Look, I got Vista running on my Mac, and is it FAST. I just used it to book a vacation to Bermuda for us". She says, "you're so hot when your smart" and starts kissing him and they fall off of his chair. Then the narrator in a stately but friendly voice [while a pan to the MS Vista logo over a tropical background] states, "Vista, it may not get you the girl, but it will get you anywhere" or maybe "Vista, it works everywhere".

Next ad with same guy and gal. She says "did you get my an iMac?" he says,"No I did even better, I got us a Vista PC and a trip to Bermuda instead, and still saved $100." Again more kissing or a big hug if you think it's too sexually oriented.

While cute, they do nothing to really tell you how the Mac is better, but rather just bash the competition"

I think it's kinda obvious the message is X, Y and Z are wrong with Vista - and implicitly (and often explicitly) those same problems don't exist with Apple.  This is not rocket science.  Anybody can see that's the message - I guess except people who don't like the ads because they conflict with their world view...cesjr

I have no problems with a world view based on actual facts, and there are corresponding facts that prove that Vista is more secure and stable than OSX and the hardware and driver problems are common in the introduction of a new OS.

My biggest problems are Apples misleading adds and Microsoft's  lack of reaction to them.

Apple isn't selling people on the Apple platform as much as they are selling people on *change!*.  *Change!* from Windows and your life gets better.

The fact is:  Most PC's (Apple and Windows and even Linux) are sturdy and reliable enough for 98% of users out there.  Apples ads really play on old misconceptions about PC's in general.  

Its no different than my friends who believe Japanese cars are more reliable than American cars.  MS created an opening when it mismanaged the PR around the bungled release of Vista, and Apple has just flat out seized upon it.

Attacking Apple in return won't recover that mindshare...they can't steal Apple customers the way Apple can pilfer theirs.  

What they can do is teach people that theres no need for a radical *change!*.

I was thinking about this through the day. I think the best solution is for Microsoft to find someone to be the evangelist / spokesman for Windows. I am not suggesting some actor (ala, Mac / PC Guy), but a person who is well spoken, who is heavily versed in PC knowledge, and who has the ability to speak directly to the Windows team inside of MS. They really need a front-man like Major Nelson for the Windows world.

Paul, as an example, is still too bitter and cynical. Bill Gates is far too boring and seen as out-of-touch. Leo (Laporte) is too easy (sorry Leo).

If they had someone who either had respect or could gain it out in the community, who really knew Windows, Mac and Unix worlds and was assisted by MS they could start working on their image.

And yes, I'm volunteering. :)

"I guess except people who don't like the ads because they conflict with their world view."

To back up what Tayme is saying, at least, not YOUR world view.

I simply said that I thought they were cute, and I obviously "get it" because I can see that they are bashing the competition, which is one way to prove that your product is better than another.  However, you do end up alienating potential customers.  I would never consider buying an Apple product, not because I don't think they make good products, but simply because I would not want to be associated with the more vocal people in the iCabal (TM).  

Like I said, being in an IT position, I deal with a lot of salespeople, and are always dealing with these imaging salespeople.  They all bash Xerox, and never really tell me why I should buy their product, only telling me why the other product is bad.  Sorry, that is not a good method of selling.

>> I would never consider buying an Apple product, not because I don't think they make good products, but simply because I would not want to be associated with the more vocal people in the iCabal<<

If I determined that one product or another, especially something like a PC, was the best of class, I'd use it and not care what other people thought.

@Ocean - "Apple isn't selling people on the Apple platform as much as they are selling people on *change!*. "

Are they by chance running Barack Obama's campaign?  ;-)

--tayme

@cesjr - "So you're saying that Paul can freely make arguments -- about whether something is true or correct and other people are wrong -- that constitute unsupported subjective opinion, but a different standard of proof applies to anyone challenging his arguments."

No...I did not say that. I said that it is obvious that is Paul's opinion...the reason is that this is his blog...and that is what he does..posts his opinion. Feel free to challenge his or anyone elses opinions...but keep in mind...everyone can have anopinion. Nowhere did I say that my opinion was the only correct opinion...nor did I sday that Paul's opinions are always right.

Show me where Paul or I said that his or my opinion is the only correct opinion...then you might get a point here. Right here - community.winsupersite.com/.../iphone-3g-s-achilles-heel-is-still-at-amp-t.aspx - is where you did it.

--tayme

Loiosh, I got you beat. Picture an ad with me and my cute twins in first grade and cute second grader in my family room where the twins are 'teaching daddy' how easy it is to create a Powerpoint presentation about colors. They did it in first grade. It would show how easy Windows and office is to learn, even for a first grader. Besides, I 'm buff and handsome! Lord it's hard to be humble.....Mommy can be in the kitchen complaining that her iPod died.

Attacking Apple in return won't recover that mindshare...they can't steal Apple customers the way Apple can pilfer theirs.  

What they can do is teach people that theres no need for a radical *change!*...Ocean

Microsoft doesn't have to attack Apple in their commercials, they just have to point to the facts.

Vista is Secure

Vista is stable and compatible with thousands of different hardware configurations.

Its more cost efficient to own and gives you greater choice of hardware and prices.

It's very pretty to look at with nice transitions(it you like that sort of thing)Otherwise you can change it, It's Windows after all !

More good things to come:)

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According to me the main problem, Microsoft has while marketing Vista efficiently is that there is almost no discrete features which can create a "WOW" effect to most people.

The greatness of Vista can only be appreciated once one take in account many "apparently" small improvements which when put together make a significant improvement from XP.

I haven't a solution to how Microsoft can manage to change the perception image that people has about Vista but i can do some suggestions for the upcoming version of Windows:

1)The Ultimate version should have a significantly more advanced and prettier GUI than the Home version.

Moreover it should enable the use to switch without significant lag in either Business mode or Home mode and each mode should work almost exactly as respectively the Business version and the Home version.

People buying it must feel that they have a significant added value compared to other versions.

2)The Home version should include  several key features which will individually blow away people.

As some obvious example:

*Significant speed increase compared to both Vista and XP on the same machine

*Very impressive U.I,etc...

3)The Business Version should provide high performances,require significantly less ressources than Vista Business and feature flawless backward compatibility with both XP and Vista Business.

4)The Basic version should have a reasonnably pretty U.I and feature a subset of both Home and Business Version functionnalities and run flawlessly on Low Cost PC.

It mustn't be considered as a limited version of Windows Home but as a version for legacy hardware.

More importantly, each version must be marketed differently, thus people won't complain that they don't get what was advertised to them.

Dipsh t Admin  said:

....However, you do end up alienating potential customers.  I would never consider buying an Apple product, not because I don't think they make good products, but simply because I would not want to be associated with the more vocal people in the iCabal (TM).  

O irony thy name is Windows users.

Lets see if this fits "I would never consider buying a Microsoft product, ot because I don't think they make good products, but simply because I would not want to be associated with the more vocal people in the  Windows-Jihadists sub group (TM).

Let the mental gymnastics begin...

Microsoft should hollerback only to kill the negative perception of Vista. Being the fact that the Vista base is much large and yet its considered by a few in the minority a failure.

Let me indulge you with a recent event in my family. My father who is 52 just bought his first notebook. A HP notebook with an Intel Core 2 Duo, 3 GB memory, 250 GB SATA drives, nVidea graphics, wireless N, and 15.4" widescreen. The notebook came with Vista Home Premium and Office 07.

Now keep in mind my father is a very conservative man. Change isn't his forte. He grew up in a pre-PC America. His college days were in the early 1970's when Xerox Parc were just developing the first GUI interface and ethernet. When he went back to college in the mid to late1990's, he picked up courses in DOS, Windows, and PC basics. On his first attempt, he built his own PC from Frys. He held on to Windows 98 till XP service pack 2, then he migrated in late 2004.

Now in May 2008, he gives Vista with SP 1 a shot. Upon first looking at it and giving it a shot, he said and I quote, "Wow, this is easy. Its very beautiful too. I can figure it out." Since then, he uses any spare time to jump on his notebook. He hasn't touched his XP desktop in weeks.

The lesson here folks is this. If a man who totally missed the PC era can transition to Vista in 24 hours, then all the excuses about Vista are total BS! Anyone with some Windows experience can handle Vista. Now just because some people want to take the quick and easy route with Apple, thats fine. I don't hate on anyone and I certainly do not lose any sleep over it.

But please, enough with the "So 15 minutes ago" complaints about Vista. Certainly enough with the Vista sucks nonsense. Instead, perhaps Apple and its community should focus on the instabilities in Leopard and work on Snow Leopard.

If you go on youtube, look for the D5 interview with Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. Steve Jobs and Bill Gates are good friends. They take vacations, still make fun of each other but its certainly not mean spirited. They are so over the rivalry. For them, it is what it is. Perhaps many Windows and Mac users should learn from their example and tone down the rhetoric.

Now in May 2008, he gives Vista with SP 1 a shot. Upon first looking at it and giving it a shot, he said and I quote, "Wow, this is easy. Its very beautiful too. I can figure it out." Since then, he uses any spare time to jump on his notebook. He hasn't touched his XP desktop in weeks. subzerohitman721

Perfect example, The whole Vista is only a reworked version of XP is BS.

Vista was changed significantly under the hood down to the kernel for safety and stability.

New graphics engine replacing XP's dated design and a perfect foundation to start with in Windows 7.

I have a Dell XPS Laptop running Vista premium and brought it over to a family get together.

My sister inlaws Husband was running Leopard on his Macbook  and generally spends his spare time trying to tear down her perference for XP and trashed talked vista.

When I pulled out my Machine the first thing out if his mouth was, if you cant get it started you can use my MAC to go on line.

When my sister in law and some family started looking at my screen the first question was.. what is that? I answered Windows Vista.

Their reaction was wow thats pretty, after I let them play with my machine for a while I got the same reaction that other people give me.

This is nice, and it's fast, I thought some people said Vista was a problem.

Needless to say I had sold more people on getting Vista with very little effort.

O irony thy name is Windows users.

Lets see if this fits "I would never consider buying a Microsoft product, ot because I don't think they make good products, but simply because I would not want to be associated with the more vocal people in the  Windows-Jihadists sub group (TM).

Let the mental gymnastics begin...Dude1313

The mental gymnastics is right, you have two mature OS's for a UI perspective, Vista is pretty but really doesn't hit you as revolutionary.

MAC OS X Leopard disappointed when it debuted late and missing  most of it's 300 new features and nothing really to write home about.

Both OS's were Buggy when they first became available.

Ye when using Vista over time it becomes obvious that XP is now dated and belongs in the past. and Vista is the present and Future from a platform perspective of Windows.

OSX leopard is a nice upgrade once all the little improvements are used together .

I suspect Apple and Microsoft will push much harder in the next versions of their respective Systems.

Either way you can't lose.

I am mainly a MacUser but I have had a pretty good experience with both Windows XP and Ubuntu too.

But I don't think Microsoft gets it.

If I bought Vista for my 5 Windows computers, I would have to worry about all the various edition, I would have to buy new hardware. For our Mac household it cost me £120.

Tuesday I was getting ready to leave on a long trip.  I wanted to let my parent know in Canada our contact details.  They have a hotmail account.  I'm in the Middle East and apparently the floating IP address I was assigned has been used to send out spam so Microsoft bounced my email.  :-((

The same day Office 2008 arrived.  Install went not too bad but then came product activation (a pain).  Lot of us here in Europe have houses with names, not numbers.  It refused to a accept that :-((.  So I thought I would use my office address, it refused to accept that too.  The default setting for country is the US, better to leave it blank (I had to drop my Hotmail account because it kept insisting that I lived in Alabama!) and then it insisted that we enter our county when our address does not have one.   :-((  Then I was asked for the product ID.  Apple asks for the same thing but helpfully put them on the software box.  The Office PID came up but disappeared as soon as I started to type.  :-((

Don't ask me how Office 2008 is, I had to catch my plane. :-((

I'm not saying anything  bad about Microsoft software here, but the company really needs to learn how to treat customers.  I have always felt valued as an Apple customer.

Are the Apple adverts any good?   They actually were put to the legal test here in England and they were found to be substantially accurate.  My own feeling is they take every annoyance that Windows has had since Windows 95 and it evokes memories in people and they come to the conclusion 'This sucks'.  Is this fair, no?  The only advantages Apple really has are real software for consumers and a real world security advantage but these are significant.

Are the Apple adverts any good?   They actually were put to the legal test here in England and they were found to be substantially accurate.  My own feeling is they take every annoyance that Windows has had since Windows 95 and it evokes memories in people and they come to the conclusion 'This sucks'.  Is this fair, no?  The only advantages Apple really has are real software for consumers and a real world security advantage but these are significant...Avro

There is no real world advantage, Vista is more secure.

As for Hardware, Vista should run just fine on your present Hardware as long as it was manufactured in the last 3 or 4 years.

                                                                                                I'm not aware of the commercials in the UK, but here in the states the Commercials are misleading, they present no tangible evidence and simply bash the competition.

Sorry about the activation with Office, I haven't had the same problems here, pretty much activated Office 2007 with no fuss.

I'm not an Apple hater, just being objective.

You have to be kidding.  The security company PC tools has just issued a report that Vista suffers from two-thirds of the vulnerabilities of XP and remember XP has a much bigger user base (the threats go after the big guy).  How many users turn off UAC?  It was not well-implemented.  Don't confuse lab condition hacks on a Mac with real world viruses and malware.  Never met a Mac user with any of those.  Windows users plenty.  In reality it means you just have to be safer than Windows but running all that anti-malware stuff has a disadvantage too.

The adverts.  It was actually the American adverts that were judged here.

Is it easier to set up a home network on a Mac?  Yes

Is iLife a good suite?  Yes

Is security better an a Mac?  Yes

Are Macs easier to set-up?  Yes

Do Mac laptops (and most desktops) come with microphones and webcams?

Yes

Is Time Machine good for back-up?  Yes

Do Macs use MS Office? Yes

Are Macs popular with students?  Yes

Do Macs have loads of software aimed at Consumers?  Yes

None of these actually bash Microsoft.  There are others that exploit some shortcomings in Windows to be sure, but remember these adverts are meant for switchers and you have to give them some good reasons for choosing a Mac over a Windows machine.  You emphasize your positives and the other guys shortcomings.

The adverts.  It was actually the American adverts that were judged here.

Is it easier to set up a home network on a Mac?  Yes

Is iLife a good suite?  Yes

Is security better an a Mac?  Yes

Are Macs easier to set-up?  Yes

Do Mac laptops (and most desktops) come with microphones and webcams?

Yes

Is Time Machine good for back-up?  Yes..Avro

I don't believe the security issue, there have been no attacks on Vista, it's secure and will get only better.

Please.. PC tools? these companies make their living telling the world the Sky is falling they need a reason to justify their business models, there have been no attack against Vista in the year it's been out on the market.

These same companies are now telling the world that Apple is the next big problem in software,Cellphones are vulnerable  blah blah blah.

Time Machine is nice, though thats been out in Windows for a few years now.

I do like i Life, and I wish that Windows had something equivalent, will have to wait until the fall for Vista to have their version.

I know plenty of kids with both platforms, like I said, they both offer value and appeal.

"None of these actually bash Microsoft.  There are others that exploit some shortcomings in Windows to be sure, but remember these adverts are meant for switchers and you have to give them some good reasons for choosing a Mac over a Windows machine.  You emphasize your positives and the other guys shortcomings."

yes that's the way to do it, then again they are no tangibles in the commercials..like I said fun commercials not based in fact.

I don't hate Apple,I think their great at what they do,I'm just not one of their fans and I've alway been objective

about both products.

I'm very happy that you love your MAC, variety is the spice of life.  :-)

@Avro,

If I bought Vista for my 5 Windows computers, I would have to worry about all the various edition, I would have to buy new hardware.

The different SKU's of Vista are easily explainable and well documented. With an anytime upgrade, you can switch versions. I decided that Ultimate was the best, regardless of costs. The superset of everything gives me everything I need without the fear of missing something. Its easy now to get cheaper versions of ultimate edition at least here in the D/FW metro area.

As for new hardware, newer CPU's and boards have greater energy efficiency and generate less heat. Memory is at an all-time low and so are hard drives. I'm not saying to go run out and replace all 5 computers. Usually, I just piece together computers as I can afford it.

Today's manufactuers are getting better at making Vista run efficently. Most 3 GB systems run very well with today's cheap memory prices.