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He does hint a very a valid point. All cults are based on personality and once jobs steps down who else can one think of at Apple?

Also Verizon has very little room to talk. They might be sitty pretty in the US market due to CDMA"s headstart but they are still tied to yoke of Qualcomm. Once the networks reach parity in deployment they are in for quite a rude awakening.

Another interpretation:

daringfireball.net/.../verizon

Getting old = fall out of favor with the public

Paul,

Please devote a post to listing the actually sites and people that you feel make up the "iCabal" and why.  At the very least, define what it means.  At this point, the only definition I can glean from your use in all honesty is the following:

iCabal -  any person, website or publication devoted to writing about Apple on a regular basis that is more often positive than negative.  Can also refer to anyone with a generally positive opinion of Apple who speaks in any public forum.

Now, by this honest definition, your site would constitute a shining example as a leading in the "WinCabal" if such a term were to be used.  Hell, you might even honestly fall into the "iCabal" territory itself sometimes.

So until you define this term and make every use of it an active link to the definition and examples, all of us who are reasonable and rational will assume this is a lame, flame-bait straw-man tactic.

Now Weedmonk (and Paul and the rest),

As for Apple's users being a "Cult"... that's gotta be the biggest cult I've ever seen, what with close to 150 million ipods sold.  I guess by those terms, any group of any kind is a "cult".  There's quite a few countries that would fall into the "cult" category as well... like nearly every European nation-state. (and yes I do know that "cult" is a popular way to describe Apple's fans).

There is very legitimate cause for concern about Apple's future after Steve Jobs exits... but that's got nothing to do with them being a cult.  It's the same difficulty that any well-managed organization faces when a great leader leaves.  The fact is, Steve Jobs is one of the best business leaders ever.  His post-1997 (and pre-1985 for that matter) success at Apple is indisputably the greatest achievement in business leadership and corporate turn-around in history.  Uncategorically.  This makes his departure so high-profile and such cause for concern.  

But it's got nothing to do with Apple as a unique situation otherwise. All organizations from schools to corporations to government agencies need great leadership to thrive.  And all of them, just like people themselves, have great difficulty transitioning.  Power vacuums can lead to power-grabs that can tear an organization apart as the company fractures into camps backing different people.  Productivity lost during the painful transition can cost a company its lead, even if the new leader is great.  But none of this is Apple-specific.

What is Apple-specific in a sense is that Apple is a creative company, much like any software or design-oriented hardware firm.  Job's unique creativity and personal taste shapes Apple's products in positive ways that will be hard for anyone to reproduce.  Dell is NOT creative at all as their success is purely and simply a result of optimized business processes.  Simple widget or commodity businesses can transition much easier since I'd argue that operational expertise or less rare than creative vision.  Of course, Apple is also one of the most operationally effective and efficient businesses on earth, so it's not like their success is purely a matter of Jobs' good taste. But that taste is an X factor that will be hard to reproduce.

And yet if anything, I think it's reasonable to argue that Apple is in a BETTER position than most.  Jobs has built a powerful organization that's aligned around a very clear concept for how to approach product design, development, marketing and debut.  Apple's got the most focused and identifiable BRAND in technology by a mile and arguably of any industry.  People know what an Apple product looks and feels like.  The brand is so strong (and here I mean brand as product, not brand and marketing) that everyone copies them blatantly.  This paints a pretty clear path for a future executive to follow if they want to keep Apple on the same course.

That doesn't mean that the next leader of Apple will be able to play "Steve Jobs paint by numbers" for keeping the company healthy and innovative.  But when you dig into where some of the hits have come from within Apple, it's pretty clear that the next leader will have an amazing team of execs to lean on for ideas.  Choosing which ideas are worth pursuing will be this person's greatest challenge.

Fortune has put together a great executive profile list of Apple's top brass that really highlights how strong the team is at the company and how ridiculous it is to treat Steve Jobs like he's the sole inventor of everything Apple does:

money.cnn.com/.../index.html

ps - and, no, Jobs doesn't publicly take credit for everything.  He always praises his team at every product launch effusively.  He doesn't even write pompous books like "The Road Ahead" in the vain notion that he's got all the answers.

Of course Paul glosses over what the Verizon CEO's comments confirm - that Verizon is looking forward to when a force for innovation and change in the cellphone industry (Steve Jobs) is gone.  Wonder why.  And these are the guys Paul would have Apple do  the iPhone with -- to get a better network -- instead of AT&T.  It's easy to see from these CEO comments how that would never have happened.

You know, I actually agree somewhat with the Verizon CEO comments. Let Apple earn it on the field before we crown them the winner. While I praise the device, with the continuing decline and faltering of the U.S. economy, people might opt not to buy the new iPhone 3G. I've talked to a few AT&T/iPhone customers lately and all of them have said they'll pass on the iPhone 3G. Looking at gas prices, I can see why. In lieu of the iPhone would be several months of gas fillups. Just this week alone, the stockmarket has lost over $460 points or 4.19 percent of its value. From October 07 high, the U.S. Stock Market has lost 19.9 percent of its value. At 20 percent, its considered a bear market which will trigger many defensive plays and strategies.

Apple has not been immune from the woes of the stock market. Its value on the Nasdaq has been on a steady decline for the month of June. Also, the press highlighting that the mass majority of iPhone 3G converts will not get the full power of the phone. This also plays into the perception that perhaps the iPhone 3G isn't worth the investment. Unless you're in urban areas, the classic iPhone will be just as fast as the iPhone 3G using the Edge network. The fault ends up on both Apple and AT&T.

As for the iCabal commentary, lets try to define iCabal.

iCabal - 1.) slang term use to define the most fanatical followers of Apple, Inc and its co-founder Steve Jobs.

2.) Followers of a loosely federated cult like behavior of extremely devoted Apple followers who very rarely tolerate any criticism of Apple, Steve Jobs, OS-X, Apple based computers or reporters that favor Apple, or anything associated with Apple. Followers of this cult are prone to unleash personal attacks in lieu of logical arguments.

3) Followers of cult who frequently blog on sites centric to Microsoft, Windows, or general PC or  technology websites.  Other areas of blogging include mobile phone websites, software development, and hardware development in which Apple competes.

4) Cult like followers who frequent find fault with Microsoft, Windows, PC manufactuers, mainstream PC computing/IT industry, Linux(In Extreme Cases), and any area in which Apple, Inc competes.

I think that is a thorough and complete enough definition for iCabal.

Now lets look at the facts. This is is clearly labeled Supersite for Windows. It has been for a long time. Its very clear that there is a bias here. But none the less, Paul is pretty fair on his assessment. Since nobody on this earth is perfect, to expect a fair but biased assessment is about the best anyone is going to get. The bottom line is that anyone who fits this "iCabal" is determined to change people's minds. The problem with their argument is that they will not change those minds or opinions. They go way to far with personal attacks, demonstrate a lack of a sense of humor, demonstrate the lack of ability to take criticism without an emotional response, and go way too far in their criticism of Microsoft, Windows, PC computing, and other topics.

My advice for those being labeled in the cabal is this. Instead of emotional response, back your arguments with logic and facts to support your case. Second, discontinue personal attacks. Enough Said. Third, blog on sites that are Apple centric. Finally, realise that sometimes opinions cannot be changed. No matter how well your arguments are made.

SubZero...I'd Wiki that definition right away. Pretty thorough for an off the cuff assesment of the iCabal.

To be honest, when I hear "get old" I wasn't thinking he was talking about his appearance, my first thought  was that people would get tired of the iPhone (and Jobs) or at least it would lose some of it's "magic".

I can't verify that by reading the whole article as the link takes you to a site where you must be registered, and I just don't feel like inviting more spam to my inbox today...

I agree with Cfischer83.  When I heard 'old', I thought he meant that Steve would go out of style, and would lose his 'honeymoon' period with the cell industry.  Just like Microsoft is always saying about Google and Apple.  That they are the talk of the industry right now, but eventually they won't be... and Microsoft will be there.  

He's just saying that Apple won't always be the talk of the town.

Now, I personally think that this CEO is WAY underestimating Apple, but I suppose he has to say those kind of things in public, and maybe everywhere so he doesn't go into a deep depression.

Honestly, this Verizon CEO is just trying to cover up for the fact that his firm passed on the most revolutionary mobile of this decade.  At some point, I expect Apple to release the iPhone for Verizon, at which point there will be a love-fest.  But for the CEO of a government-regulation-manipulating, FCC-petitioning, lawyer-ladel oligarchy to lash out at an innovative shop and potential partner like Apple is pretty pathetic.  None of these telcos could compete in a REAL market without the mounds of subsidy and regulatory barriers to competitors they get to enjoy and lobby to control.

Microsoft may have become a monopoly and abused it, but at least they did it the old-school American way... through grit and hard work.  They earned that monopoly.  Apple has earned it's praise by surviving in the toughest, most competitive business environment based solely on innovative engineering and branding. They came into the a brand new market and went from zero to 18% marketshare of smartphones while being tied to one carrier.  That is worthy of attention.  

Have they "won"?  Of course not.  Are they "dominant"?  obviously not.  Is the iPhone amazing and soon to be a crazy smash hit?  Certainly.  And it could have been on Verizon's superior network if those pinheads weren't so stuck up about locking down their devices when Apple approached them.  AT&T had the guts to change their approach and let Apple have free reign, and for that they've been rewarded.  Verizon played it greedy and cared more about funneling it's captive customers to "V-cast" and is now stuck with pathetic also-ran iPhone copycats from Samsung, HTC and LG.

Now, Verizon gets to become #1 again through yet-another acquisition.  Great.  These telcos live in world where lobbying the FCC is as much a part of their competitive strategy as any product or service.  Give me a break.

As for the iCabal commentary, lets try to define iCabal.

iCabal - 1.) derogatory term used by windows fans to insult fans or followers of Apple, Inc and its co-founder Steve Jobs.

2.) Largely imaginary group with supposed cult like behavior that windows fans accuse of not tolerating any criticism of Apple, Steve Jobs, OS-X, Apple based computers . Windows fans that employ this insult typically do so in lieu of logical arguments.

3) Supposed followers of cult who frequently blog on sites centric to Microsoft, Windows, or general PC or  technology websites - and surprise, surprise - find a lot of erroneous statements by windows shills and fans that they disagree with.  When they disagree with the windows fans' statements, they are accused of being members of the iCabal - instead of their arguments being addressed on the substance.

4) Purchasers of apple products  who also frequently use Microsoft, Windows, PC manufactuers, mainstream PC computing/IT industry, Linux(In Extreme Cases), products (at work for example) and usually find them to be less intuitive, more complex, etc. than apple's offerings.

I think that is a thorough and complete enough definition for iCabal.

Oh, and:

My advice for those being labeled in the cabal is this. Don't bother to back your arguments with logic and facts to support your case, because we will just resort to ad hominem attacks such as calling you a member of the iCabal.   Second, discontinue personal attacks. Only we are allowed to make those (e,g, calling you a member of the iCabal). Third, blog on sites that are Apple centric. We just want an echo chamber here that makes us feel good - we're not interested in the truth.  Finally, realise that sometimes opinions cannot be changed. That includes Paul, Cfisher83, etc. No matter how well your arguments are made.

Human nature to think whatever you and your friends use is the best. I remember when I had an Amiga computer I knew people with Ataris, there was always that "ours is best "stuff going on between the two factions.MAc people that I know have been saying iphone isn't selling like it should because of it  not having 3G or it's beause it is with AT&T. I try to explain to my Mac friends it's not so much these things, it's not the price of the phone so much there are others on the market costing as much or more. I think it's basically the monthly charges. $60 plus dollars locked in for two years and that just the one phone. If your married do you both get one $120 a month? That will pay for my gas for a month and a couple meals. All that and now with it's plastic back plate we are talking a piece of glass a circut board hd and battery with plastic now supporting it all. I'd give it 2 weeks in my house before it got crunched. For me I would have to choose whether to get Iphone and drop my home internet and cell phone. Or keep them and admire the iphone but know I cant afford the luxery item it is to me.

The iCabal thing has just become Dvorak-style link baiting at this point.  It gets a reaction, and I guess that's Paul's intent.  I like Dvorak because you know not to take him seriously.  I don't like this kind of link-baiting and wish Paul would cut it out.

This stuff from the Verizon CEO just reads like he's jealous.  Apple makes great products, but do get an unwarranted amount of free press.  Seidenberg is basically complaining about the calls here, and it makes him look a like a sore loser.  If Seidenberg wants that kind of positive press, he should work with his partners to build a better iPhone.

"That includes Paul, Cfisher83, etc. No matter how well your arguments are made."

O_o

I don't remember ever calling anyone iCabal... not that I'm saying I disagree with it :P

Cesjr: I can at least discuss a topic without resorting to personal attacks (and FYI, iCabal has never been used by Paul to attack a specific person as far as I've ever seen), unlike you and some others who would rather use emotion than facts in a debate.

You also don't realize that I use Mac and PC. I own an iPod and a Zune.... so somehow I'm a PC fanboy that uses Mac's? So is Paul? I think you're just upset that we don't drink from the kool aid like you do ;)

I believe the iCabal statement is used for people who don't realize they are fighting their own... the ones who insist that we can't be critical or think that anything else could possibly be superior.

I use Mac's. I actually like them. I use Windows. I think it's superior than OS X. Does this simple belief make me a person who doesn't "back your arguments with logic and facts" or "resort to ad hominem attacks"? Absolutely not. In fact I've never attacked you or anyone else... you on the other hand.......

"Of course Paul glosses over what the Verizon CEO's comments confirm - that Verizon is looking forward to when a force for innovation and change in the cellphone industry (Steve Jobs) is gone.  Wonder why."

I hate that company...

"And these are the guys Paul would have Apple do  the iPhone with -- to get a better network -- instead of AT&T.  It's easy to see from these CEO comments how that would never have happened."

No, no. I think it actually would have happened. Verizon comments against iPhone because they don't have a deal with them and they foresee its success (you know, like when Apple laughs at Microsoft's products - although they have more reason to, since the only reason MS is alive is because they stole the window concept).

Subzero, Paul & the gang,

Paul's use of "iCabal" is an insulting, rhetorical mess.  He has never defined who it is or what he means by it and has used it in virtually every post about Apple (and he posts about Apple a lot on this blog). It's alway been a vague strawman, except when he claimed that anyone with .mac was a member, which was truly ridiculous. He certainly seems to include mainstream tech journalists like Walt Mossberg in the iCabal mix. Paul claims to be objective routinely so this rhetoric is very unfortunate, not to mention childish and condescending.  

But before we try to lock in an official definition for Paul Thurrott's "iCabal", I think all of you need think about the actual word Cabal and it's real connotations in order to understand our offense.

Ca•bal - (dictionary.com)

1.a small group of secret plotters, as against a government or person in authority.

2. the plots and schemes of such a group; intrigue.

3.a clique, as in artistic, literary, or theatrical circles. (clearly debatable as you'll see)

–verb (used without object)

4. to form a cabal; intrigue; conspire; plot. 

That's dictionary.com's definition.  #3 seems to apply well to Apple loyalists like myself... however, #3 is very out of place and is pretty clearly not part of the words origin or present in many other dictionaries.  American Heritage and Webster's don't have #3 in their definitions.  It is also not part of how the word is ever used.  

The real connotation of Cabal is that of a secret, conspiratorial group with a shared and coordinated agenda.  Without the conspiracy element, the word Cabal is simply inappropriate and unnecessarily insulting.  When people refer to a "cabal", they're ALWAYS talking about coordinated groups... and it's always very negative.  

Given this simple fact, "iCabal" is clearly and obviously inaccurate and inflammatory.  

Now, Subzero, every element of your definition already has plenty of existing terms we can use.  They're called fanboys, platform zealots, mac fanatics, etc.  The use of "cult" is slightly more appropriate though still pretty insulting, but I'm more willing to accept it that cabal.  Nobody here, including and especially Paul, can provide any evidence of a coordination or conspiratorial element of the mac press/fanatics.  It doesn't exist.  And there is so many examples of every reasonable mac website heavily criticizing Apple that Paul's iCabal can ONLY apply to forum trolls.  Obviously forum and comment trolls don't coordinate, even if they're opinions sounds similar.

I find the idea that mac fanatics behave any different than Windows fanboys, Xbox or playstation fanboys or any other zealot to be blatantly and obviously false.   I've seen years of absolutely outrageous and downright hateful trolling on geek.com's mac section and other mac forums from Windows zealots that have no reason or business coming into the conversation. I can't even begin to count how many times I've seen Mac users called gay-bashing slash terms, just to point out one of the more prevalent travesties. Paul has said that there literally are ZERO Windows zealots.  ZERO.  He's emailed me with this proclamation.  That's clearly a delusion and one that is coloring his concept of the "iCabal".  

Those of you here with any honesty shouldn't champion this stupid term.  Microsoft-bashing windows article troll, close-minded mac zealots suck.  No question.  But they aren't a Cabal and those us that love the Apple platform aren't automatically part of that group.

Lastly, anyone complaining about the presence of people like myself on this website need to direct their concerns at Paul Thurott.  His frequent posting about all things Apple, right down to covering silly gossip like this Verizon CEO's pathetic remarks give us more than a fair reason to comment.  I simply need to point out how little macuser comment activity occurs in non-apple articles on this site.  Again, my former geek.com experience played out the same way, only worse.  Mac users stayed in the mac articles while Windows Zealots would swarm every mac post with "ONE BUTTON MOUSE!" or "NO GAMES!!" or often "MAC are for F*GS".  Believe me, there are jerks on both sides in equal numbers.  lets drop the slang and the constant baiting and stick with the facts.  

End the use of iCabal if you care about reasonable discourse.

John, your post is just a fact that underlines what's happening when someone reverses "Im a Mac/I'm a PC" style advs.

Irony towards MS users is "right", while the contrary is "insulting". Don't you know how many times I've been insulted/ridculized by Mac fanatics (I work in graphic and i'm an Art Director and i do a fine job withoiut using ANY apple product) since 1994? I'm still counting. I rember a colleague when i told him i was buying a PC (in 2004) and he told me: "Oh, so you are going to buy a dos machine? How can you work with that?" A dos machine? XP? I never answered to that...

Sadly when a Windows user do the reverse I read post like yours. The "iCabal" definition is clearly ironical. It's a satirist definition. What goes on your mind, folks?

I find it sickeningly hilarious (or perhaps the other way around) that some here STILL get all riled up over Paul's use of "iCabal".  Its not tough to notice that the more you get your panties in a bunch, the more inclined he seems to be to use it.

And johnpapola - get over yourself already.  If your incredibly long-winded and highly-defensive posts don't epitomize what Paul is alluding to with "iCabal", then I don't know what does.

Funny stuff.

After getting the LG Dare delivered on Saturday, a handset that has just been released, I don't think Verizon has anything to worry about.  That and the upcoming BlackBerry Thunder and eventual conversion to LTE, Verizon is in a fine position for the future, with or without the iPhone.

I've explained my feelings on the iCabal before, and while I won't repeat them again here, I don't think it is a derogatory statement, and pretty clearly defines the most vocal of the group.  Paul *could* define the iCabal and its members, but the proclaimers of the Windows Jihadists label should do likewise.

Seiderberg's comments were definitely out of line, but I don't think they were referring to his health directly.  Rather, he was saying that Jobs will eventually retire, removing the soul of Apple.

I think that Nickelgreen hit the nail on the head...why is Paul's use of satire in using the term iCabal any different than Apple themselves using satire in the "I'm a Mac/I'm a PC" ads? Like I posted in Paul's Friday Short Takes over on WinInfo, if you read the Comments on the Bill Gates email article, you will see what Paul refers to as the iCabal. Its satire...get over it, already!!!

--tayme

Still enjoying your iPhone Paul?

Dipsh*t: Paul already DID define them thusly: "The iCabal crowd—you know, the anything-but-Microsoft jokers who try to make a federal case out of anything Microsoft does, good or bad..." in his first mention back in May.

It's bait. Plain and simple. And he's clearly chortling as we take it and run with it. Sad that his enduring contribution to the discussion of the relative merits of the Operating Systems will be such a silly phrase.

Hope you like that LG Dare. Initial reviews don't look promising: http://tinyurl.com/6anrqx

"Initial reviews don't look promising"

Never heard of that source before.  I haven't had issues with the touchscreen as they have had, except in the browser, which I will readily admit is the weakest point of the phone.  With OTA updates, I hope they will deliver frequent updates to the phone.  For what it's worth, I'll wait for a reputable review source such as Phone Arena to chime in.

"And he's clearly chortling as we take it and run with it"

Exactly.  I've said this before, but with the iCabal and thin skin references, everyone that is having problems with these terms and concepts is just making the problem worse, and proving Paul's point over and over.

John, calm down...  I turned on Spike TV and all I saw was this picture of the Kool-Aid man, and my TV started to overheat. Getting worried, I used Live Search to find out what was happening on my Vista computer, downloaded the instructions to fix it to a Windows Mobile device, and fixed the problem was with my Mediaroom set top box.  After that disaster, I was calmed by the sounds coming out of my Zune in my Ford Focus with SYNC.  I was going to go all Jihad on my local Apple store, but I was in a required week of mourning as Bill Gates has retired.  I've got his poster on my wall, along with my commemorative signed version of MS Bob, so I hope he'll come back like Jordan.

OK, enough of me waxing poetically going off the deep end.

Like I've said before, I used to read Mossberg.  After a while, I got bored of him, and I moved on.  While I'm not telling you what to do, but if you feel so strongly about Paul and his usage of the term, you really only have one option so that you can continue to live your life in happiness.  It's really not worth it.

@befuson,

touche, though it's pretty clear you don't understand the work cabal any better than paul.  But yes, I am ludicrously long-winded.  I'm just not a huge fan of hypocrisy, and Paul's ongoing macuser bashing with "iCabal" is just that.

@Dip,

Rob Enderle is win jihadist numero uno.  Also, I'm not "riled up" just because I post massive screeds.  I'm just a geek is all.  A verbose geek.

@Nickelgreen,

I have no doubt of your experience as a Windows user among mac designers.  I had the same experience when I was getting started and used Windows.  However, I will simply say that your anecdote is countered by a far larger group of IT support guys that dump on mac users.  Design is a niche of mac snobs compared to the army of mac bashers out there (or they used to be at least).

Also, I don't think you understand what "irony" or "satire" are, never mind the a "cabal".  No offense.  Apple's ads don't insult users, they are insulting the Windows PC platform.  It's called "metaphor".  John Hodgeman is not intended to represent users, he represent the actually PC itself.  But of course everyone knows that.  Some just choose to ignore it in their arguments.

iCabal is a partisan insult coming from a guy claiming to be objective and impersonal.  I like Paul for the most part, but his obsession with making this term stick blows.

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