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Yes, because Paul is the only one is right and he's the only One who knows.

He's a Windows Jon Gruber.

Nicely argued Ocean.

But seriously. If you have anything intelligent to say about this post, please do chime in. Please.

Sheesh.  You know - she published this article at 10:18 AM - before the morning was even over.  I've seen much worse Vista bashing, but this just seems unnecessary.  

Quick summary:

Hey!  A site that no one knows about isn't working, but very likely will be in the next 24 hours, making this article completely unnecessary!

I don't have anything to say about the article.

I just wanted to thank you Paul for your retort to Ocean. It gets tiring when people troll for no good reason except that they're starved for attention and can't get it at home.

Will a time ever come when trolls, hacks and tools like Ocean get kicked off the site? There is nothing worthwhile they share to the site. At least give the other readers an option of ignoring these idiots.

Add Vista/Microsoft  bashing to "Stuff White People Like" ( to do). Sorry I know its not funny but I couldn't resist.

Even the gaming fools at Maximum PC are starting to come around on Vista, actually its getting harder to not to admit that Vista has some worthwhile features and performs quite well. Unless you never tried it.

Cheers, keep on pushing!

Paul, I stopped considering CNET a serious tech site when they suggested to skip Vista (january 2006) because it was sooooooo similar to Xp. I wiped it out from my favourites on IE7 on that occasion.

So, I'm not surprised they are still on a lonely vista fud bandwagon.

I hope they'll fare well. I've decided to write 'em a postcard from the real world sometimes. Lol

What I find a little weird about this thing is that a very similar type of tool has been available for quite some time called the Windows Vista Upgrade Advisor.  In fact, an earlier version of that tool which name escapes me also served a similar purpose, which was available, get this, before Vista was even released.  So Paul, you got it right that this is a non-story, but it's even more of a non-story.  And since the tech version of this tool has been on Connect for ages now, it's certainly nothing really "new".  They even have a blog!  Can you believe that, the whole store got the flu, excuse me, a blog:  blogs.technet.com/MAPBLOG

And Paul, I'm sure you're in your seats waiting for the surefire brushback you're going to get about certain statements you made above.

Pingback from  Mike Likes Windows Vista | Kirb's Musings

www.informationweek.com/.../showArticle.jhtml

The upcoming ad campaign should stir the bucket.  Lets see if MS can throw it back at Apple.

" "We broke a lot of things. We know that, and we know it caused you a lot of pain. It got customers thinking, hey, is Windows Vista a generation we want to get invested in?" So Brad Brooks, Microsoft's VP of Windows Vista consumer marketing, fessed up publicly this week."

What's with the self-flagellation? I mean, a little honesty is refreshing, but this is ridiculous at this point. It's like Bush saying "mistakes were made". The time for that is long past. Vista is generally excellent, and THAT's the message, not acting like an abused spouse that thinks the abuse was deserved.

Gee Paul, a bit thin skinned are we?

Let's run through a list of things MS really got wrong with Vista.

1. Vista ready, you may not think it is a big deal, but every customer who bought one of those machines and found that the only version of Vista that can be run on their machine is basic is probably a new Apple customer.  You may not like it, you may think they are dumb, but the fact is that an Apple never leaves the factory without at least adequate resources to handle consumer tasks.  

2. Vista Aero, MS finally caught up with Apple's graphics but in doing so created a graphics system that required a dedicated high end video card.  Thus, the only machines that could run Vista satisfactorily in January 2007 were machines over 1500.00 USD.  Thus, even though Vista was "Just like every previous version of Windows, people expected more.  You may say that is unfair, but the fact is in customer relations the consumer is always right.

3. Drivers, Drivers whose got the driver.  The transmission in my car was made by a company called Tremec.  Never heard of them?  It doesn't matter.  If the transmission doesn't work, I don't return it to Tremec, I take the car back to the dealer.  In the world MS created it doesn't work that way, if a part of your computer doesn't work, you may have to look to a nearly infinite number of vendors in order to solve problems.  Guess what, all that does is irritate customers.  Apple has problems like this but at least when the machine leaves the factory it works.

4. UAC-- Security through nag screens.  Again, once a machine has been shaken out this shouldn't be an issue, but guess what, Apple's get a Mac commercial was hysterical.

5. Doing the same thing and expecting the same results.  Sorry Paul but we aren't moving from Win 3.11 to Windows 95.  The entire computer industry has matured.  Frankly, MS got used to doing things the same way.  For example, I've seen you write on at least half a dozen  that every new version of Windows has a somewhat painful teathing process, that every new version of Windows has a big jump in harware requirements, that every new version of Windows requires people to buy new machines.  The reality is that people quite frankly expect more.  You may not like it, but those are the facts.  

Deal With It.

Regards

Joe Dokes

^ good points.

The most annoying things to me with Vista, is not the hardware requirements (memory is cheap these days) or the stability issues (almost on par with XP), but rather the usability issues and the repeated little annoyances... Most of my friends feel the same about Vista.

Simple examples:

* I wanted to know my internal IP addres. I go to network select the port and don't see my IP anywhere. In XP it used to appear in the preview pane...

* I want to turn off these annoying fade-in / out window effects that slows the whole experience dramatically. Logically I go to appearance control panel, customization... and there after numerous clicks in the tabs and the properties... nada... So I google it and find out the you have to right click computer, then go to hardware then properties then click on perfomance tab.... way to go for usability...

The horrible ways of finding hidden options in XP via hidden properties button and right click-> properties and multiple tabs and not only not been fixed in Vista, its worse now ! The grouping of the settings in the control panels are totally horrible and unusable. The OSX control panel by comparison is a dream. Not even talking about the search built-in the OS X control panel.

* The other by wanting to empty the trash, I inadvertently delete (!!!!!!) the trash itself !!! I didn't even know this was feasible !!!! Then no more trash on my desk ! :(

I had to go to computer and create a link of the trash to put on the desk. I'm not even sure it's the way to do...

These are just my last ones of many non important but irritating Vista experiences (and thankfully I disabled UAC in the services thanks to Paul's tip).

Add to that harder to use saving dialogs and less usable shell windows with limited or no customization possible and you have a nice product technologically hobbled buy usability annoyances...

"Snarkier than required"?

Paul, maybe you're not seeing it because you're too close to it, but practically all of *your* commentary in this blog and places like Wininfo is snarky.

Doesn't this just get old at some point?

I recommend going back to your writings, say, from 10 years ago and reacquaint yourself with it. Other blogs are rubbing off on you to your detriment.

P.S.: While I'm here, you're spending too much time defending Vista. People selling Vista books, like you and Ed Bott for example, seem to do this a ton more than anyone else. Why is that?  I don't really care, either, if it's 100% accurate, it simply comes off as hollow and self-serving coming from you guys so incredibly frequently. Ease up a bit, won't you?

Paul, it's your attitude.

Pure, plain and simple.

Microsofts new tagline is "Free the People"

This ought to be good.

>>It appears that Microsoft will also frame Windows as "a kind of language," as that's how Brooks referred to it in his keynote. "There are over a billion users using it today," he said. "It's bigger than Mandarin Chinese, bigger than English, and like those it connects people. That's what Windows started, that's what Windows delivers today, that's where we're going. <<

Actually, that makes sense.

@daveinla

Don't know how you turned off displaying the recycle bin (it wasn't by deleting anything) but it's easy to put back.

Right click on the desktop and select Personalize

Select Change Desktop Icons from the left side of the pane that opens up

Select Recycle Bin and click OK to close the windows

@joe-blokes:

You are completely out to lunch:

"every customer who bought one of those machines and found that the only version of Vista that can be run on their machine is basic is probably a new Apple customer. "

BULLSH*T!  Here's why:  you turn around and counter your own argument with this line:

"the fact is that an Apple never leaves the factory without at least adequate resources to handle consumer tasks."

Translation:  People that buy a cheap PoS can't afford something reasonable to run Aero, but they can afford a Mac.

"the only machines that could run Vista satisfactorily in January 2007 were machines over 1500.00 USD"

Sorry, but that's complete and utter bullsh*t!  The 945G chipset (the GMA 950, which for some reason seems to be at least a part of the "Vista Ready" argument) is actually Vista Premium certified, meaning it will run Aero.  If you want to know the age of that chipset, it was the chipset used in the first Intel-based Mac's (it was in PC's long before that too).  The GMA 900 (Intel 915G chipset) is the real problem chipset.  It's not Aero certified - it doesn't support DirectX9.  Like many other chipsets and underpowered GPU's, the driver for it works as well as the standard VGA driver, which in itself, runs truecolour (32-bit) colour and high resolutions on more compatible chipsets than any other OS.  That is an indisputable fact.  Although you can't do Aero, 2D hardware acceleration is still available to applications.

"if a part of your computer doesn't work, you may have to look to a nearly infinite number of vendors in order to solve problems.  Guess what, all that does is irritate customers.  Apple has problems like this but at least when the machine leaves the factory it works."

BOOLSHYTE!  If you use any third party USB device with a Mac (or PCI device with a Mac Pro), good luck getting it to work out of the box.  Likewise, every PC OEM installs drivers for hardware that's included.  To think otherwise shows your lack of intelligence.

I have been using Vista for over 12 months now on my laptop and PC and have no problems. All devices worked out of the box with no driver issue. UAC isnt an issue I maybe see it once a week. Speed is more than adequate and both machines are doing intensive Visual Studio and Dreamweaver work.

I just ignore the rubbish that is on media sites and blogs by "experts" who's entire experience with vista is using it for 5 minutes and/or reading the bs that has been spread by people who are the same as them, ignorant and ill-informed.

Gee Waethorn,

Did I hit a nerve.

The reality is many people are buying Macs?  As a matter of indisputable FACT that Mac market share is growing faster than the overall computer market.  These customers have to be coming from somewhere.  Perhaps the f-ing fed up with MS?  Makes sense to me.

That being said, I love how you call Windows Machines and I quote, "People that buy a cheap PoS can't afford something reasonable to run Aero."  Thanks now that you've clearly admitted that a large number of the Windows machines foisted upon consumer are POS.

Further, the Windows market is a horizontal market, the Mac is vertical.  Now, I'll try to use little words so you can follow along.  Apple controls the whole widget, I am referring only to the box here, yes you are correct the occasional peripheral can bork a Mac, that being said, the same can't be said for a Windows machine.  Does Dell control the OS, NO they must turn to MS for support.  Does Dell control the hardware?  A little but they are really at the mercy of both MS and the hardware vendors.  Thus, no single company is responsible for the whole widget.  This is a primary reason Apple has a competitive advantage over ANY windows machine.  If you don't f-ing understand that, you are just basically dumb.

Regards

Joe Dokes

lotsamystuff said:

What's with the self-flagellation? I mean, a little honesty is refreshing, but this is ridiculous at this point. It's like Bush saying "mistakes were made". The time for that is long past. Vista is generally excellent, and THAT's the message, not acting like an abused spouse that thinks the abuse was deserved.

My Comments:

I agree. The time for apologies for Vista being less than stellar was two months after launch. However, I still don't see that Vista is such a horrible OS that it doesn't even boot. Vista boots, functions, and gets the job done. Its even better now with SP1. However, anyone paying attention to Windows history knows that this is the predictable pattern to Windows OSes.

joe-dokes said:

1. Vista ready, you may not think it is a big deal, but every customer who bought one of those machines and found that the only version of Vista that can be run on their machine is basic is probably a new Apple customer.  You may not like it, you may think they are dumb, but the fact is that an Apple never leaves the factory without at least adequate resources to handle consumer tasks.

When Leopard launched it had data corruption issues, blue screens during installs due to unsupported APE's from Unsanity, weaknesses in the revamped firewalls claimed by research group Heise Security,  and now Leopard is up to version 10.5.4. That means in less than one year, there have been 4 major updates to the OS due to issues. To me, that no different than what is happening with Vista. Except that while Vista is growing to be more stable over time, there are continuous reports of instaiblities with Leopard. One of the websites that follows some of these continued problems is MacWindows.com. I can't remember where I read the quote, but someone said that Leopard felt much like system 7.5 with its level of buggyness.

Yes, Microsoft blew the Vista launch. It blew the file copy issues and game compatability. However, now that 18 months have passed, Vista is getting a lot better. To claim that Leopard is better when the instabilities are gaining in the press, is really a blatent lie and doesn't serve your cause. Vista users have been owing up to all the problems, issues, and incompatabilties from launch. Today, its a whole new ball game.

"3. Drivers, Drivers whose got the driver.  The transmission in my car was made by a company called Tremec.  Never heard of them?  It doesn't matter.  If the transmission doesn't work, I don't return it to Tremec, I take the car back to the dealer.  In the world MS created it doesn't work that way, if a part of your computer doesn't work, you may have to look to a nearly infinite number of vendors in order to solve problems.  Guess what, all that does is irritate customers.  Apple has problems like this but at least when the machine leaves the factory it works."

Appearantly not, since people are still complaining about issues with it. Vista and Leopard both have problems. Its a lot like the pot calling the kettle black. My Vista system works just fine, I have not had anywhere near the issues that others have. Out of 18 months of operation, my total down time has been 4 minutes. And that was before SP1. Since SP 1, zero.

Its about time MS began their offensive. It time to squash the lies and tell it like it is. Vista and Leopard have their problems, but come on.....

@ subzero

"Yes, Microsoft blew the Vista launch. It blew the file copy issues and game compatability. However, now that 18 months have passed, Vista is getting a lot better. To claim that Leopard is better when the instabilities are gaining in the press, is really a blatent lie and doesn't serve your cause. Vista users have been owing up to all the problems, issues, and incompatabilties from launch. Today, its a whole new ball game."

First using something other than IE will show you, your misspelled words.  In Leopard that works for the whole OS a nifty feature.

You kill me with these comments.  Leopard less stable than Vista???  First most of you examples are from people upgrading over the top of a Tiger install that had 3rd party apps that were not Leopard compatible....which um is a bad idea on for any OS upgrade.  For every website that you can link me to that says Leopard is bad, I can give you 5 that say the same thing about Vista.  I mean this blog post is about VISTA's BAD PRESS, not Leopard.  Right or wrong Leopard is getting good press Vista is not.

In 2007 I bought two new notebooks.  A HP in Feburary with Vista Premium and a Macbook in November with Leopard.  Both had 2gig of memory.  Both I cleanly installed the OS on the day I opened them, even though the only real advantage for the OS X clean install was to remove languages/print drivers I did not need and the only trial ware that came with it...MS Office 2004.  Vista of course had MOUTAINS of trail ware that I am sure would have made my experience even less than what it was.

The Vista box had one show stopper issue for me, the HORRIBLE networks copy speeds, and one major annoyance abysmal battery life. Even after many so called Microsoft "Performance updates".  Other than that I had a few minor slow downs for no real reason, like Windows explorer just going out to lunch on occasion just spinning the circle, and just about the time I was reaching for the power button it would come back.  IE7 would just crash a lot for the first three months, I found out via my search for an answer it was the ant-phishing option that was buggy, which when turned off fix the problem, MS did fix this one it its monthly updates.  Sure there was software I had to replace, Quicken 2005 had problems, but that is expected.  So in November I gave the HP notebook to my wife after she made me put XP on it, and I bought my first Macbook.  That notebook never saw SP1 and never will.

Like I said I clean installed the Macbook as well, because I bought a bigger HD from newegg at the time.  To be totally honest I have had ZERO problems with leopard and the Mac as a whole.  The network copy speeds, as good as XP.  The battery life, the best I have ever had with any notebook, seriously double that of Vista.  Safari and Firefox 3 have crashed several times, always because of the Logmein remote control plugin.  There has been an update for that plugin and it works flawlessly for Safari now and much better on FireFox 3.  Apple did not fix Logmein, Logmein fixed it.  I have upgraded from 10.5 to 10.5.1, 10.5.2, 10.5.3, 10.5.4 with zero problems, and to be honest no real difference good or bad.   I cant imagine Leopard is getting worse with updates???

I work from home and my work provides me with a Lenova T61 XP Pro, notebook, but I can use our Citrix option on my Macbook so my Macbook is used every day from 7am to late at night, between two jobs and personal stuff.  I use the heck of the mail app with multiple email accounts,  ical, address book, isync over blue tooth, itunes, iphoto, imovie (have three small kids) iweb etc.  None of those apps has ever crashed, or has ever been slow.  In fact the only slow apps on my Macbook, are Office 2008 apps.  Word 2008 takes a full 30 seconds to start up the first time you load it, vs 5 seconds maybe for pages.  No it’s not my Mac or Leopard just Google “word 2008 slow” it’s Microsoft.  If fact I use VWware Fusion 2.0 Beta on my Mac, daily and its never crashed, even running in its own space, while running a Vista Business VM.  Also I bought a Sony Hard drive based Video Camera to replace my dying digital 8mm tape based camera, well Vista would not see or use it until I downloaded some software from Sony so that Movie Maker 6 could see the format.  iMovie popped right up and wanted to offload the movies the first time it touched my Mac.

So for me the difference between Vista and Leopard has been night and day.  I treated them both the same (clean install on brand new, brand name hardware).  I have now run them both for about 10 months using them to do the same stuff work/hobby.  I can if I choose use bootcamp to run XP or Vista, even Vista 64, but I choose to use Fusion for those times I need to help a Windows client and want a visual reference.

My wife has 3 siblings, that have teenagers, and spouses, and extended family.  Then there is my side of the family as well.  I am their IT support (logmein), and they were shocked to hear me say “if what you need to do can be done on a Mac (software basically) then get a Mac if you want a new PC”, but after a few converts they are pretty happy with it.

Poor Paul.  Poor windows apologists - you can dream on that all the problems with Vista are "perception" not reality.  Hey whatever makes you feel better.  the truth is that Vista has real problems - just this week another windows diehard journalist switched -

"I'm simply fed up. I'm fed up with the absolute turd that is Windows Vista. "

www.theinquirer.net/.../inq-hack-goes-mac

Cesar i send you back your statements.

It's YOU that are living ina a different reality where perception is that Vista has issues.

I know (personally) thousands of people living and working and having fun with Vista without any issue.

But many people, like yourself, prefer to count the ridicolous and rare (and quite bizarre i should say) issue reports than counting the millions of users happily using this OS.

I have no data about tons of downgrades or angry crodws making barricades.

It's all in your mind.

And you are in danger if you think that chris pirillo IS reality.

:-)

cesjr:

I think we are talking about how some "journalist" suck right?

Oh, and considering windows has more than 90% market share, I think it would be much easier for you to find a person "switch" from windows than from mac?

"Doesn't this just get old at some point?"

Like the anti-Apple stuff on this blog, right?

Subzero,

Some good points, except for this little bit of winCabal FUD:

"Except that while Vista is growing to be more stable over time, there are continuous reports of instabilities with Leopard. One of the websites that follows some of these continued problems is MacWindows.com. I can't remember where I read the quote, but someone said that Leopard felt much like system 7.5 with its level of buggyness.

Yes, Microsoft blew the Vista launch. It blew the file copy issues and game compatibility. However, now that 18 months have passed, Vista is getting a lot better. To claim that Leopard is better when the instabilities are gaining in the press, is really a blatent lie and doesn't serve your cause. "

My comment:

Whoever claimed this is an idiot with no meaningful experience with either Leopard or OS 7.5.  Leopard is a very stable OS and these 4 updates, only the first two of which were "large" (and none of which could be called "major"), has made it more-so.  Paul somehow dug this quote up out of some user comments (talk about trolling around for ways to dump on Apple).  This isn't "the press".  It's some guy doing god-knows-what with his computer and complaining about how he broke it.  That you're repeating it here as part of an argument (hell, the sole basis) is not very good for your credibility.  

Meanwhile, unlike some moron in a support forum, it appears that even most of the tech journalism community that Paul LIKES is saying that Vista is a problem.  Now, I'm not claiming they're correct in their broad condemnation, but it's far more reasonable to accept their collective conclusion than some moron support post.  It's certainly not a "blatant lie".  And it's certainly more honest than basing your whole argument for Leopard being unstable (and increasingly so) or some forum post that Paul linked to.

Give me a break.  Leopard and Vista are both very stable.  Of course, Leopard's graphics subsystem is dramatically superior (as are it's APIs according to many developers), presenting the exact same interface on any mac going back to 5 year old 800mhz G4s, regardless of what applications you run.  Meanwhile, Vista's Aero is a 1.0 performance dog that for some insane reason gets shut off if an older application runs.  That it can't even run well on machines dramatically faster than the systems Leopard supports doesn't speak well for the quality of the code.  In fact, it sounds downright kludgy to me... which may explain why Windows developers and Microsoft themselves have ignored WPF for their apps.  Not even the brand-new Zune software uses WPF... and this was one of the main three "pillars" of Vista.  That wreaks of technical failure to me.  But I guess Windows users are so happy that windows don't cover their screen in a smear whenever the processor is being used that they can over look the shortcomings.

Of course, Apple pioneered the GPU-accelerated vector-powered compositing graphics engine with Mac OS X 10.0 back in 2000 and has been refining it and expanding it ever since.  The Waethorns of the world continue to ignore what a huge lead Apple opened up on the display front in OSX with Quartz.  Vista is, obviously, playing massive catch-up to Apple's GUI engine.

As for Windows PC support finger pointing... this is a fact of life that is dramatically better with Apple.  You just can't deny that.  Saying you don't have problems is a dodge.  People do have problems and when that happens, they get a horrible run-around with the PC vendor blaming anyone else and anyone else blaming everyone else.  This is why PC Magazine and Consumer Reports have always found that support and user satisfaction for Apple computers is a giant leap above even the best PC vendor.  Again, this is just an indisputable fact.  Hell, I got a 4 hour run-around between Microsoft and the company that runs their "Windowsmarketplace" when the vista "full version" download I bought actually required Windows to already be installed instead of generating a disc image like every mac software download in the past 5 years.  Yeah, some "full version".  But neither Microsoft nor the vendor that manages the microsoft online store would take responsibility for this.  Amazing.  That's the PC world.  Zero accountability when things don't work.  Zero.

On a side note, Paul will be super happy that Microsoft marketing hack Brad Brooks has announced that the company is going to respond to Apple's ads.  And in typical nonsensical, buzzword laden marketing speak, Brooks criticized Apple which saying that the Windows  "Software out there is made to be compatible with your whole life".

Software that's compatible with my whole life!  Where can I get that?!?  I'd love software that's compatible with my marriage, or my relationship with my son.  Or software that's compatible with family conflict.

The WinCabal likes to talk about Apple's hype and Steve's reality distortion... but nobody can spew the meaningly marketing garbage like Microsoft and their executives.  Whether it's J Allard claiming the Zune is part of some larger social "connected experience" construct or this guy.  These guys really need to get re-acquainted with normal english instead of internal bull$hit buzzwords.  Understanding actual reality and what consumers really WANT and actually DO may just help the products.  Imagine that.

Hi  Paul

If you wont try

lzdqow.bay.livefilestore.com/.../WindowsAdvisor.exe

original link not work

www.microsoft.com/.../details.aspx

excuse me my english

Paul if my link is not legal PLS REMOVE.

THX

"If you use any third party USB device with a Mac (or PCI device with a Mac Pro), good luck getting it to work out of the box."

That's the biggest crock of "boolshyte" I've ever seen from you, Wae, and I've seen a lot. Go spread your FUD somewhere else--perhaps on your unsuspecting "Bargain Basement PC Hut" customers. What you said is just a laughable lie. The FACT is, I have well over a dozen "third party USB" devices on my various Macs, and they all worked flawlessly out of the box (and we're talking about a range of devices, from Hard Drives to keyboards, mice, printers, card readers, external DVD burners, etc). I interchange them with my PC, and have never had an issue. Not once. Same with the PCI cards in my desktop (bought off the shelf at Staples, for crying out loud). No problem.

No one's buying your line of crap, Wae. If you're going to offer up some criticism, at least make it fair and honest.

(Watch for Wae's response, where he tells an apocryphal story about a mythical customer with a malfunctioning Mac that Wae converted to a PC user with his magical sales wand)

Well.

As expected, a firestorm.

First of all, I really respect and personally like Ina Fried. I just don't get the point of the post.

I'm not so much thin-skinned as I am tired of senseless Vista bashing. Or senseless MS bashing too. There's so much to complain about when it comes to MS. Let's not make stuff up.

This is obviously an open forum. I don't see any need to censor anyone or whatever but I would certainly prefer for things to remain on-topic and civil. If it's not, then I'll just ignore it. Life is too busy as it is to deal with silly snipers.

I bring this article up because I feel that it's representative of what's going on out there regularly. Bashing MS is like reaching for the low-hanging fruit. In the tech world, this is the equivalent of a Jay Leno opening monologue: "Did you hear the one about the Microsoft beta Web site that went up a bit late? Yeah, they can't even ship beta Web sites on time." Ba-da-dum. Yawn.

If you care to look back at the Vista launch event coverage, you'll note that I made fun of it. (I also made fun of the XP launch event. Look it up.) MS has absolutely mismanaged this. I've discussed the Vista marketing message with MS on record several times. They really need to get going on this. This week's WPC keynote was, I believe, the second time this year they've publicly stated that they're working on it. They have to work on it for three reasons:

1. The screwed up.

2. The tech press/blogosphere is remarkably anti-MS/anti-Vista to the point where improvements are never noted.

3. Apple's Switcher campaign (I'm a PC, I'm a Mac) has been surprisingly effective, all while Apple has had its own very similar issues with Leopard. (No one notices.)

Microsoft is excellent at self-flagellation. I suspect they screw up on purpose sometimes just so they can be humble about it later. OK, not really. But for a company with so many smart people ... You get the idea.

Anyway.

Moving on...

Pingback from  Jonathan Hensley &raquo; Quick Links for Jul 9th

"I'm not so much thin-skinned as I am tired of senseless Vista bashing."

That assumes that all the people doing the bashing are clueless idiots. Some may be, but the sheer volume of the complaints indicates there is more to it than that. I've no idea what the truth is, since I don't use Vista. In fact, Vista is forbidden on our office computers, which says something in itself.

"This is obviously an open forum. I don't see any need to censor anyone or whatever but I would certainly prefer for things to remain on-topic and civil."

Dropping the petulance with "iCabal" and INsiders would be a good step in that direction.

"Apple's Switcher campaign (I'm a PC, I'm a Mac) has been surprisingly effective, all while Apple has had its own very similar issues with Leopard. (No one notices.)"

Okay, we're listening. What are those "similar issues"? I will give you one thing on Leopard: On release it was the buggiest OS X release to date. But: (1) it wasn't 5 years late, (2) Apple quickly did .x releases that have fixed most of the issues.

"we're talking about a range of devices, from Hard Drives to keyboards, mice, printers, card readers, external DVD burners, etc"

nice "range of devices" there.  aside from printers, every single type of device you mention is also supported with a standard HID or generic USB driver in Windows Me (and probably versions of Mac OS that predate OS X - maybe).

"Watch for Wae's response, where he tells an apocryphal story about a mythical customer with a malfunctioning Mac that Wae converted to a PC user with his magical sales wand"

it's no myth....people that come into my store have never asked if I sell Apple systems either.  had a person in the other day that said they tried their neighbours computer and really liked it - and it ran Windows Vista.  they wanted to know if i took Mac's for trade-in.

i said no.  >:p

they still bought a Windows Vista PC from me though.  ;)

Snakedoctor1 stated:

"In 2007 I bought two new notebooks.  A HP in Feburary with Vista Premium and a Macbook in November with Leopard.  Both had 2gig of memory.  Both I cleanly installed the OS on the day I opened them, even though the only real advantage for the OS X clean install was to remove languages/print drivers I did not need and the only trial ware that came with it...MS Office 2004.  Vista of course had MOUTAINS of trail ware that I am sure would have made my experience even less than what it was."

First, I remember that Paul in either a WinInfo or one of the early Vista beta reviews, that Microsoft had asked PC manufactuer vendors not to include trial software in Vista. That is one of the reasons why the Vista boot screen is all black with just a progress bar. Second, if you look at most of the installation software today, there aren't as many fancy graphics. Microsoft as vendors not to put all those pictures describing features on installation packages. Microsoft itself was notorious for this, which just bogged down the install process. Now we all know that HP, Dell, and others continue this process. How can you blame Microsoft, when both of my retail copies of Vista had ZERO trial software? None. Again, that belongs to HP, Dell, and the other manufactuers.

I personally have never stated that Vista was anywhere close to being perfect. I've always been consistent that it does have issues. Many of which was resolved with service pack 1.

"The Vista box had one show stopper issue for me, the HORRIBLE networks copy speeds, and one major annoyance abysmal battery life. Even after many so called Microsoft "Performance updates"."

Service Pack 1 clearly resolved this issue and the difference between Vista and XP file copy is zero. Rehasing something that has been fixed really kills any credible arguments you have. Now the battery issue, I agree with you 110 percent. Microsoft totally fumbled the football there and even I have an axe to grind with them. So if you want to bash Vista for its battery performance, go right ahead. I won't even bother with a defense for that.

So you have an ideal experience with Leopard. Thats great!!!! I honestly am glad you are that talented. However, thats the experience I've had with Windows Vista. It hasn't been perfect but I've been able to log thousands of hours on my notebook and desktop. I've had a total of 4 minutes of downtime with Vista. Compared with my XP experiences, I had a whole lot more downtime with XP.

There are people out there who are having bad experiences with both Vista and Leopard. I don't want to diminish the genuine problems with both OSes. There are probably people more talented than either of us, having problems while some have none. Thats just the way it is.

The problem I have is with defending tech pundints who bash Vista without some concrete evidence. Nor have they tried SP 1 to see how the user experience has changed. These pundints also ignore the security improvements that Vista has to offer. Its not perfect, but a huge step up from XP.

But if you guys want to attack Vista for being 5 years late, I won't stop you guys. Once again, I concede that point. If you want to attack it for borrowing elements of Aqua, go right ahead. But remember, that the features in time machine debuted in a earier Windows Server before it ever showed up in Leopard. If you want to attack Vista for its lack of speed vs Leopard, once again I won't stand in your way. There is no defense. But underneath all those arguments, Vista is still a damn good OS. It gets the job done for me and millions of users like me.

Don't get it twisted, I like the Mac stuff but not the price. I don't like that some of the users believe the OS is perfect, I do not believe it one bit. (Nor do I believe in the concept of perfection.)  I also believe the UI is dated and needs to evolve. I like the Windows hardware diversification that is not present in the Apple computing universe. These are all legitimate concerns of PC and IT users alike. Don't diminish them because of marketing hype and a contest long ago. I and many customers have a right to critique just as you do.

Bashing Microsoft is so easy because they are so lame. Check out their new announcements for the "Deskless" products. Like their 'Deskless Worker Suite". What a retarded name. Typical of Microsoft to come up with lame names. They'll now be known was the "Dickless Worker Suite" of products.

Well said, sub.  And the informed response is a perfect foil for the trolling drivel that drylight posts.

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