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I will do the math.  2.5 million Macs were sold last quarter, as in computers, with a nice profit.

Microsoft sold ZERO computers last quarter, as in Zero profit made for selling computers.  They probably took a loss on the Xbox and Zune hardware.

This is why your WW market share numbers dont mean jack.  This is why even though Apple has 3.5% of the WW OS share it will make 30 billion or 50% of what MS will make this year.

If Apple gets to 10% WW market share for OS X, then maybe they will just buy MS?????

When your ready to talk Apples to Apples then your points might be valid.

Also we know by how Microsoft counts sales they're counting every XP downgrade as a Vista sale.  They expected MS-beholden press to tout the distorted Vista sales number and they have not been disappointed.

I've been wondering, did anyone's thing touted as an "xyz killer" ever kill xyz?  I suspect not, because their eyes are on the thing they're trying to kill, instead of trying to be the best they can be.

Now this new campaign trying to tell people that Vista doesn't suck, same deal.

Paul, I have to say: you suck at market analysis.  When it comes to market share, you are a one-note, thoughtless drone that is contributing no information, meaning or value to our discourse.  ZERO.  This is coming from a reader and listener that otherwise respects your opinions and finds many of your criticisms of Apple quite valid.

Microsoft's high-margin business and 96% marketshare netted them 14 billion in profit for 2007.  Apple's 3.5% marketshare and relatively small portfolio of other products netted them 3.5 billion in profit in 2007.

So for all your mindless repetition of basic arithmetic, Microsoft's 96% share and all it's other business only earn it 4 times the money that Apple makes with it's 3.5% share.

Put that brain of yours to some damn use, man.  This is really getting pathetic.

oh... and read this to help jump start the thinking I know you're capable of...

marketing.wharton.upenn.edu/.../myth_of_market_share.pdf

I have to agree with Paul and Ed Bott.

People's thoughts about Vista are definitely all about "knowing" that it sucks.  Everyone is going with the majority's opinion rather than doing their own research.

By doing their own research we know that although Vista may be slow for games, it is way more secure and all the "normal", everyday users should be using Vista.

As for doing the math: I really don't care.  If/when I feel that Apple is making a superior computer, I will use Apple.  Apple makes a superior MP3 player, so I bought it.  Sharp made a superior* LCD TV so I bought it.  Microsoft is currently using a superior* operating system, and I will continue to use it until the one day that it is no longer superior*.

(*by superior I meant the best solution to fit my needs)

THE END

And for the record... I think that Vista is the best OS Microsoft has ever shipped and when I saw it fully expected it to slow the Mac's growth.

The paradox here is why Paul and the rest of the Wincabal are so threatened. What's up with that? Why does Paul need to constantly remind everyone of the Mac global marketshare? If Apple is so tiny, why so worried?

And Microsoft is going to spend $300M reminding everyone that Vista doesn't suck. If everything is rosy, sales are great, no worries, then why do that?

The logical conclusion is that, despite the constant chest thumping about huge Vista sales, tiny Mac "marketshare", that they're worried.

You know what: They should be. Despite current sales, and current marketshare, Microsoft is a rudderless ship. What passes for "leadership" at Microsoft is just sad.

Also for the record, I will say Vista, now after SP1 and many fixes is good OS, the most secure desktop OS they have ever made.

I would recommend it now to a home user that ruled out a Mac for whatever reason, based upon Security alone, since Vista can help the users that just cant stop them selves from doing the well known common things that bring on the pain of malware.

If a home user has newer PC hardware with XP on it, and has not been hit with malware (from their own actions), then I would not recommend a upgrade from XP to Vista at this point as I dont see enough value right now to justify the cost.

AT this point in time, there is almost no one that I know, that believes Vista is bad. XP is no longer an option at our retail stores, so they just buy a Vista PC. This ad may be informative, but is probably lame. This snipit looks pretty boring. The initial Zune ads were pathetic, but now, though few and far between, they are better. You can load an ad with much info, but you need to make it interesting to make it believable and memorable. I hope MS can find someone to execute well, but based upon past ads, I doubt that it will be.

Could I advise all readers to actually READ Ed Bott's post. And the Microsoft Vista page that he links to.

"first signs of Microsoft fighting back against Apple's switcher FUD"

Paul, you may want to re-read them as well!

The initial problems with Vista were not created by Apple. The remaining problems, whether real or perceived, were not created by Apple. Sure, they "joined the conversation" with their 'Get-a-Mac' ads, but the conversation had already been started by the mainstream tech press, tech pundits and bloggers. Most of whom were far from Apple fanboys... they were simply disappointed with the latest OS from Microsoft ..... and said so ... often!

Microsoft is NOT spending $300 million on this campaign because of Apple.

Slower than expected uptake of Vista in the enterprise is certainly not due to some amusing TV ads from Apple.

Apple's campaign was strongest in the US. Followed by Japan and the UK. It was virtually non-existent everywhere else.

Microsoft has admitted that there WERE problems with Vista. And they sure as hell know that they are left with a big perception problem. The people there are sensible and bright enough to know that it's not John Hodgman's fault!

.... and before you start writing your "Get-a-PC" scripts take not of this from Ed Bott. "Responding directly to those ads is a losing tactic"

Yeah since they actually lost some market share (tiny for sure) shouldn't that ship be sitting lower in the water:)

johnpapola, can I also say that you equally suck at market analysis.

You yourself have confused the numbers by making simplistic and flawed market share comparisons. Your 3.5% number ignores the over 80% share that Apple enjoys in the MP3 player market, a market dominance that derives a substantial amount of profit for Apple, but which is totally unrelated to the OS market share statistics. Also, your logic practically assumes that there is only one market, when indeed Microsoft and Apple participate in several different markets in which either company may exert greater market power. In Microsoft's case, it dominates productivity and operating system software markets, whilst Apple dominates the hard disk MP3 playing market. The difference is that while the majority of Microsoft's profit is software driven, Apple is becoming increasingly reliant on consumer electronic devices to source its profit, meaning that these silly market share quarrels are stupid because the reality is that both companies are very different.

As I said in another post, it actually doesn't "hurt" Microsoft if Apple sells more Macs, because Macs are simply another market for Microsoft software, particularly for Office which is the most popular productivity application on OSX; and increasingly, Windows - bootcamp now allows dual booting on Macs - once again there is more opportunity for Microsoft to sell more Windows licences.

So please guys, stop squealing and actually look past the superficial and rather dumb blogosphere analysis. Most blogs are designed for getting more clicks rather than for substantive and objective analysis. All you guys are really engaging in is a fanboy pissing contest. How lame.

Take away all of the Vista-specific problems with Windows and you're still left with a big problem - the hardware comes from one company, the OS from another and key apps from more parties.  It still makes for a support nightmare (pointing fingers at the other guy).

MS's other "perception problem" is a reverse one - MS was (and continues) to benefit from the false perception that there is no choice (you "have to" go with windows).  This is diminishing rapidly with each quarter of millions of macs sold.  This factor may be driving mac sales even more than Vista's perception problem.

@ Doc "AT this point in time, there is almost no one that I know, that believes Vista is bad"  That is suprising.

I do side work in the SB world for a buddy of mine that owns his own consulting firm.  His focus is on MS and the SB community.  Most of his clients run SBS2003 and Windows desktops.  They are all over the map, lawyers, doctors, real estate, property management, landscaping etc.  At this point 90% of the think Vista is BAD and some forbid the use of Vista right now.  

For instance he has a contract with a real esate office where agents bring in their own PC's and they pay an IT fee to get support, the owner of the real estate company makes money off this I would imagine.  Anyhow in the beginning Vista caused a lot of problems with industry software and printing to some massive printers, to the point my buddy was billing a lot of hours trying to get this software to work with Vista.  So the owner told the agents Vista wont be supported.  He will pay for my buddy to down grade and agent PC to XP if the agent wants to, or they get no support.  My buddy is making some good money off of this.  

He also works with Dell and gets a cut when he sells a Dell to a client, he has told me that his customers love the fact that Dell is continuing to sell XP.  Now my buddy is a full on MS freak, certified partner, goes to Tech-ED every year, owns Zunes, WM, 360's and all and he is the one telling me this.

@Robertc your point is right on....Paul compared Mac hardware sales to Vista OS sales, then he asked the non cool-aid drinker to "do the math"

"BTW: 2.5 million Macs were sold in the last quarter. We know that Microsoft sold 40 million Windows Vista licenses in the last 2/3 of that quarter, so that's about 50-60 million units for the quarter. Do the math, flat-earthers."

Apples to Oranges.

Uhhhhhh... If this is the beginning of Microsoft's answer to Apple's "I'm a Mac"-ads then it's unbelievably pathetic so far. Certainly it would have been bad to directly answer Apple's ads as the article points out, but what is it with all the apologizing? Microsoft is the company that people generally do not trust very much, so why did they think that admitting Vista was not great when it came out would somehow make things better?

"Windows Vista: Look how far we've come"

The wording just sucks there. Sounds just like "Look, we're getting where everyone else has been for a long time now!"

cesjr, what you call a "big" problem, is really just a re-run of the "get-a-mac" spin.

The fact is that the PC ecosystem makes the PC more accessible to more people than Apple. That is one point that Paul has made that I totally agree with. If you just want a basic appliance that does web browsing, email and word processing, there are literally hundreds of cheap options for the PC. Not so with Mac.

Also, the fact that several different parties are involved may lead to finger pointing but the reality is that everyone enjoys a bit of choice. And most of the big PC makers have pretty decent warranty policies if problems arise (at least in my country, Australia).  

The logical extension of your argument is to have every piece of hardware and software made by one supplier. Sorry, but you can keep your communist nirvana.

@RobertC,

You're right that the iPod contributes quite a bit to Apple's revenue.  However, Microsoft has a very large collection of products beyond Windows one of particular interest here: Office, which makes nearly as much for them as Windows and has nothing to do with operating system share.

So Apple has the iPod.  Microsoft has Office.  You point this out in your post yet don't make the connection.

This only further highlights the pathetic state of Paul's obsession with pushing Worldwide market share as the end-all-be-all.

There is a simple fact.  Worldwide share is a stat used by platform zealots to bash the mac.  That's it.  It has no other value.  It doesn't provide any information regarding the value or viability of the Mac platform for users.  It doesn't reflect the health or profitability of Apple.  It offers no information of value other than showing the overall market trend... and providing fodder for Paul to pander to the worst partisans among his readers.

I'm quite confident in the quality of my analysis on this issue.  I'm not repeating it entirely here since I've done so many MANY times to no avail.

Paul is playing in the gutter of the blogosphere with this stuff, his "iCabal" attacks and this "Do the math 'flat-earthers" line.  That he can turn around and go after other pundits and bloggers for hyperbole at the same time is the height of hypocrisy.

"The logical extension of your argument is to have every piece of hardware and software made by one supplier. Sorry, but you can keep your communist nirvana."

Most of the hardware attached to my Mac was made by someone other than Apple. Most of the software I run was written by a company other than Apple.

So what's your point (other than the one atop your skull)?

My point was to highlight the imbecility of cesjr's assumption that having more, rather than less, suppliers in the chain is necessarily a "big problem".

Read what he said for yourself. Your own individual circumstances highlight the inherent stupidity of his statement.

"This thing better be aggressive though. Microsoft needs to make a mark here."

Why, exactly? I'm not asking a rhetorical question. I'm serious.

Your marketshare analysis shows that people aren't abandoning Microsoft in any significant numbers. XP isn't even generally available any longer, and there's no real competition for the de facto monopoly held by Microsoft. People are going to buy PCs running Microsoft software, and even if Apple were to magically double its market share (which ain't gonna happen, let's be honest), it still wouldn't put a significant dent in the Microsoft Juggernaut.

So exactly whom are they marketing against? What are they afraid of?

Repeatedly, the posters on this board point to Apples "I'm a Mac" ads as having damaged Vista's reputation. Likewise, you point out--correctly--that they've had little impact on Apple's market share. The only thing they seem to have accomplished is to get under the skin of the WinJihadists. Therefore, a $300 Million marketing campaign to swat a fly as insignificant as y'all seem to think Apple is seems like the equivalent of strapping a rocket engine to a Yugo for the sole purpose of visiting the corner grocery.

Seriously...wouldn't this money be better spent elsewhere?

Robert: My apologies. I see your point. If I could delete my post, I would.

johnpapola, in case you hadn't noticed, the United States is not a universe unto itself (some may haplessly argue otherwise). There ARE other countries in the world and thus worldwide market share statistics are perfectly valid to highlight the extravagant Apple hyperbole when they move from 3.2 to 3.5% market share.

Does that mean the Mac is a useless platform unworthy of attention - certainly not. It just means that Apple is guilty of misleading and false advertising much of the time with an overhyped sense of self-importance. I need not list the obscene lies that are prevalent in much of the Apple marketing spiel.

I have absolutely no problems with Apple surviving and growing stronger as a company. But there becomes a point when you just have to say to Steve Jobs: "grow up!"

"thus worldwide market share statistics are perfectly valid to highlight the extravagant Apple hyperbole when they move from 3.2 to 3.5% market share." for just the OS market share only:)

The funny thing is, lotsamystuff, is that Microsoft literally has the spare cash lying around to swat flies as it pleases. That's what is so astounding when you think about it and the fact that their share price consistently underestimates what at monstrous cash cow the company really is!

That aside, you're perfectly correct that the exercise is somewhat fruitless - given that the Windows market share remains pretty constant regardless of the switcher ads. However, a positive of the ad campaign may well be to improve Microsoft's relationship with consumers in general. But that will depend on just how clever the campaign turns out to be.  Furthermore, I think we can all agree that Microsoft needs a PR make over either way. Their whole marketing approach is an irrelevant, and vacuous, dog's breakfast

I agree with teh apples to oranges comparison to a point. If you are counting Vista licenses sold with hardware AND Vista licenses sold in a cardboard box off the shelf, then you MUST do the same with OS X. That would be true apples to apples...or Apple to Microsoft as the case is. I am not sure what numbers Paul is and has been using.

Regarding the adoption of Vista in the Enterprise...that is normal. XP had the same "delay". It would be irresponsible for any good IT shop to roll out an OS without testing and updating all of their homegrown apps. This takes time...and in today's false "economic downturn", resources are extremely limited.

Again, I say...there is room for more than one OS to be successful and there is no need for a winner and/or loser in this silly "OS War". But, it is all good, clean geek fun...most of the time - so, I would like to go on record to say that the Elektronika BK running NORD is the best and the rest of you are all koolaid drinkers if you don't agree with me!!!

;-)

--tayme

Rob, as an average user, I don't need 100's of choices for daily PC uses such as web browsing, email and word processing, Only a few good ones will do. In fact, fewer choices [quality that is] makes it even easier to choose. I still think that price mostly dictates what a computer buyer will purchase.That said, paying half the price of an entry level Mac, to buy a PC that is 'good enough' for all your needs. including your iPod or Zune, is probably a more likely reason to not buy a Mac. The buyer has money left over to buy more music, or gas and food. This is what I have seen in my area at least, especially those not driving up in a BMW or Benz.

I agree tayme. I have over 300 employees and a lot of computers in the company. When we buy new, we downgrade to XP and [I guess] save the Vista license. I just easier as we know it works and no personnel gets confused. I find myself using the wrong copy and paste shortcut keys going from Mac to PC. Why in the heck didn't Apple put them in the same place?

Robert,

With all due respect...

"It just means that Apple is guilty of misleading and false advertising much of the time with an overhyped sense of self-importance"

That's not a fair statement at all.  Apple's marketing no more misleading or false than Microsoft's.  Let's not attack hyperbole by BEING HYPERBOLIC.

Microsoft's marketing and PR reflect the disunity of it's products and services.  This isn't a matter of switching agencies.  It's a matter of reviewing their product strategy and making align and connect for consumers.  They have the business story and it's strong.  Their consumer product story is all over the map.  That's what you get when you chase every market under the sun and don't focus.

Chalking their issues up to marketing isn't paying close enough attention.  Brand is a function of product first and foremost.  This is why the communication in this effort of their is right up front addressing the fact that real customers have had real complaints.  Bravo to them for the effort.  And sure these are the standard growing pains of an OS transition.  But there remains large areas of the Microsoft experience that don't connect.  They should review their entire consumer-face product portfolio and clean it up.  Make it easy to understand and make it connect the way you'd expect.   If they can do that, ads from Apple saying the mac "just works" won't resonate.  The fact that the ads work isn't a sign that Apple is a mesmerizer. It's a sign that the message strikes a chord.

John,

Point me to a Microsoft ad that depicts these misleading marketing. Put money where your mouth is.

>>BTW: 2.5 million Macs were sold in the last quarter. We know that Microsoft sold 40 million Windows Vista licenses in the last 2/3 of that quarter, so that's about 50-60 million units for the quarter. Do the math, flat-earthers.<<

This part is off-topic and it's name-calling.

Thats trolling.

Wikipedia:

>>The idea of a flat Earth is that the surface of the Earth is flat (a plane), rather than the view that it is a very close approximation of the surface of a sphere. This was a common belief until the Classical Greeks began to discuss the Earth's shape about the 4th century BC.<<

What century do you think that ship is from?  

Lame advert that could bbbbllloooowww up in MS' face.

Hey, Ocean...its not trolling...it's his blog...it would be more down the lines of link baiting. Your post is closer to trolling.

So, is your goal now to point out every online debat tactic by name? Wikipedia can alread do that for us.

--tayme

@RaaJ,

What are you talking about?  I haven't accused Microsoft of misleading marketing.

Ocean:

Wikipedia:

en.wikipedia.org/.../Flat_Earth_Society

Flat Earthers have been deluded fools up into the 21st century.  These cultists were beholden to a single idea, and willing to cloud, distort, or deny any fact which disputed their silly beliefs.   Sound familiar?

@ JP:

Here is what you said:

"Robert,

With all due respect...

"It just means that Apple is guilty of misleading and false advertising much of the time with an overhyped sense of self-importance"

That's not a fair statement at all.  Apple's marketing no more misleading or false than Microsoft's.  Let's not attack hyperbole by BEING HYPERBOLIC."

Show proof of misleading or false marketing from MS. You know, something like a PCvsMac ad that blatantly and shamelessly perpetuates the myth that Vista still does not work. I am not looking for an internet anecdote.

MrVictory:  True...but thats not everybody, not by a longshot.

Wikipedia says:

>>Link bait is any content or feature within a website that somehow baits viewers to place links to it from other websites.<<

In other words, trolling.  :)

RobertC says: "The logical extension of your argument is to have every piece of hardware and software made by one supplier."

Not the case.  There could be 2, 3 or 10 companies offering an integrated hardware/software personal computer like the Mac.

Another example, in the case of portable music players and associated software - there is the iPod, and the Zune.  Same model, two companies competing.

The key really is having data portable between the competing offerings, then you have choice without the "finger pointing" you get with the piecemeal windows model.  

Apple does a pretty good job of adopting standards where it can - for example, AAC, trying to ditch DRM where the record companies allow, vCal, vCards.  MS has tended not to favor open data standards, but they seem to be getting better on this (I still think they have to prove it though.  time will tell).  We have to push back on Apple and MS on this

@RaaJ,

What I meant to say was that Apple wasn't any worse than Microsoft in it's use of hyperbole.  When I have the time, I'll dig up some examples.  I leave to you to prove that Apple's marketing is so broadly dishonest as you're claiming.

Being that this information from Ed Bott is just the first of many, I thought it was sheer genius. Just looking it, I got the message loud and clear.

Although many Greek philosophers theorized that the world was round, it wasn't proven until Magellan's Voyage. The idea that someone actually challenged the misconception and died to ultimately prove it. It is one of the events of the Renaissance, the time when humanity broke out of the dark ages. The era when many of the most profound discoveries/advancements in art, literature, science, religion, politics, philosophy, etc. Not only is it one of my favorite periods in history, a lot of Steve Jobs' influences for the Macintosh and Apple in general come from the same period.

Fortunately for us, nobody has to perish to prove that Vista is a pretty rocksolid OS. Linking the discovery of how well Vista is using the period of the Renaissance is nothing short of brilliant. To put all of the Vista Haters, ignorant tech bloggers, anti-Microsoft crowd, and others as the same fools of the dark ages is humorous. They speak of the same ignorance that made the dark ages so horrible. To cast Vista in the role of enlightenment, progress, a change in the status quo, and ultimately the victim of the attacks of the ignorant makes sense. Its a high road that doesn't take the low brow approach of Apple's "Switcher" commercials, and yet allows you to focus on the product.

If this is the general theme of the counterattack, I think Microsoft get it. We are in for an interesting period of commericals and advertisements.

(Cues on my iPod the John Williams score of the Imperial March from "The Empire Strikes Back.")

"Apple's marketing no more misleading or false than Microsoft's."

Naaaaaww!

joes-blog-canada.spaces.live.com/.../cns!DA2B394806986D5D!250.entry

joes-blog-canada.spaces.live.com/.../cns!DA2B394806986D5D!250.entry

Pappy, it's funny how you completely forget how I prove you wrong TIME and TIME and TIME again.  (Just like how you claim that Mac's are competitively priced and how I proved you wrong SEVERAL TIMES already).

"I'll have the soup, and my mute friend here will have a side of crow with his foot"....

>>Although many Greek philosophers theorized that the world was round, it wasn't proven until Magellan's Voyage.<<

Is that going to be the MS line?  You're talking marketspeak.

Wrong anyway:

>>Around 330 BC, Aristotle provided observational evidence for the spherical Earth,[13] noting that travelers going south see southern constellations rise higher above the horizon. He argued that this was only possible if their horizon was at an angle to northerners' horizon and thus the Earth's surface could not be flat.[14] He also noted that the border of the shadow of Earth on the Moon during the partial phase of a lunar eclipse is always circular, no matter how high the Moon is over the horizon. Only a sphere casts a circular shadow in every direction, whereas a circular disk casts an elliptical shadow in all directions apart from directly above and directly below.

--

The Earth's circumference was first determined around 240 BC by Eratosthenes. Eratosthenes knew that in Syene, in Egypt, the Sun was directly overhead at the summer solstice, while he estimated that a shadow cast by the Sun at Alexandria was 1/50th of a circle. He estimated the distance from Syene to Alexandria as 5,000 stades, and estimated the Earth's circumference was 250,000 stades and a degree was 700 stades (implying a circumference of 252,000 stades).[18] Eratosthenes used rough estimates and round numbers, but depending on the length of the stadion, his result is within a margin of between 2% and 20% of the actual circumference, 40,008 kilometres.

<<

.

Actually Wae, Apple definitely did not lie in the fastest laptop commercial. The Mac ad clearly states that the data is from PC world, and it was. Now if the fact is not the truth, then PC World was wrong or lied, not Apple. It was printed and therefore anyone should assume that PC World performed the test correct. I don't think that Apple had the burden of proof as well, since the data was very clearly documented.  I do have a subscription tot PCWorld [and MaximumPC as well as MacWorld, but I'm letting MacWorld expire] Also, better proof would be from a non-Apple bashing site. Anyway, what did you think of the HP laptop deal that I got for my nephew? Did I do good? I'm looking for some reassurance here.

Also, In my 6 ,inute drive to pick up pizza for the kids, I heard the worst FUD on radio from KYW1060 in Philly for a second time. I listened more closely as this worm explained the many ways how it was causing total 'anarchy' throughout your corporate system by infesting [in a windows system]. The promo was for http://softmart.com/hp/ and sounded like REAL FUD, and total crap. I wish you could all hear because it makes Mac/PC  ads look like a wedding.

Ocean, you know perfectly well the Round Earth theory wasn't *universally* accepted until after the renaissance. Although the Greeks etc had theories, the average common person in post-Rome, pre-Columbus society believed (and was told by scientists and the Church) that the Earth was flat.

It doesn't matter when it was discovered, but when people believed it. the tag line is saying people used to think the Earth was flat. They don't literally mean 'everyone in the world, every single person, thought it was'.

You know this. you're splitting hairs just to be annoying and look clever. Use common sense.

Could blow up in their face?? Yeah, the whole advertising campaign is gonna fail, because everyone who sees it will say 'oh, no, actually it was determined by Eratosthenes' - give us a break.

agreed, DRWAM, it would be nice to see a little less apple bashing on this site. I understand Paul, I get pissed off with iFans etc, but it's not terribly mature to go too far. I'm pretty sure MS is going to come out the more mature in this thing by being the ones who tout THEIR OWN ADVANTAGES, rather than PICKING ON OTHERS.

What they need to do:

Hire John Hodgman. Use humour. Respond to Apple without *really* responding directly to them. Make us laugh, and feel warm and friendly towards the product. That's how you win people.

Agreed, ben, butu you're probably a lot like me. Still, I think that we are the majority and it's us that should be targeted. I just don't like any bashing. Even Ocean posted that you shouldn't blow out someone else's candle to make yours burn brighter or something like that. I want to read what merit a product has and not the nasty stuff. I don't like fighting and feeel a product should be able to stand on it's own merit and accomplishments...the high road.

"We know that Microsoft sold 40 million Windows Vista licenses in the last 2/3 of that quarter"

Yea, and how many enterprises are installing Vista?  How many are rolling back to XP?

I guess it doesn't matter because enterprise pays MS a seat license no matter what.  This is -- again -- why MS products will never be that great.  They are a victim of their own success.  They make billions NO MATTER WHAT.  There is just no incentive to do better, or change.  NONE.

"Apple definitely did not lie in the fastest laptop commercial."

lie - "a situation based on deception or a false impression"  --encarta.com

seems pretty obvious to me.

"I don't think that Apple had the burden of proof as well" --they did-- ", since the data was very clearly documented."

Exactly - it was obvious right on their page that PC World lied, and Apple repeated it.  Then when PC World was outed, they tried to cover it up, and Apple pulled that ad from TV circulation only a week later.

"....anyone should **assume** that PC World performed the test correct."

....and you know what they say about that....obviously an intelligent fellow Canuck picked that up right off the PC World site.  Anyone else could've done the same - including Apple.  Instead, they'd rather have just taken the story at face value and ran with it - and they did.  Clearly they don't care whether or not it was from a trustworthy source.  I guess that explains the rest of their advertising too....Now if I didn't already know any better and read that blog site, and then saw their ads for the first time, I still wouldn't take any of them seriously.  In fact, I'd probably sue them for false advertising.  Apple has the top 3 US newspaper tech columnists in their pocket though, so it's easy for them to get away with it.  (I'd like to think how badly the US tech press would crucify them if Apple resided in a foreign country).

"Anyway, what did you think of the HP laptop deal that I got for my nephew?"

If you have a coupon, then it's not so bad.  Obviously I'm biased though, since I offer better systems at lower prices.  ;)

I'll say this once to ANYONE out there.  Buy an extended warranty with a name brand.  ----BUT----  Buy the warranty from the manufacturer, not the big box store or online retailer.  HP's extended warranty service is usually 5 business day turn around MAX, with 3 days being the average.  Shipping is included for both ways, and it's couriered back and forth to your door.  Big box stores want you to carry it in, and although I can't comment on Circuit City or other US stores, Best Buy and Future Shop (which Best Buy Corp. owns) can have your system for up to 8 weeks before they even consider replacing it outright.  You also don't get manufacturer-certifed parts from the big-box service center.  Support from name brands can sometimes be included, and othertimes (such as with Dell) be a massive extra charge even over the extended warranty.  HP allows you to buy extended warranties after buying the system, even if you don't buy it directly.  There is a xx-day time limit to which you can add one on though.

As a note:  HP consumer systems are some of the worst for added crapware.  Ask for Windows reinstallation discs to do it right.  Just make sure they are "vanilla reinstallation" discs though, NOT "recovery" discs.  HP business systems ship that way, with drivers and applications having separate installation routines for each, on a separate disc.

Oh, and get OneCare for it, instead of subscribing to the crappy Norton-whatever suite.

- Say "NO!" to Norton

....I don't know....the more I think about it, I think some of the Mac users (and iCabal alike) on here could use this one:

clues4sale.files.wordpress.com/.../07641.jpg

Damn, Ocean...you are just a fountain of knowledge...You even put some sort of numberng system in your post...

.....zzzzztttttppppp.....

Nice use of Copy/Paste, by the way!!!

--tayme

What is truly sad is that with all that money MS still can't even buy taste.  At least MS had the good grace to hire The Rolling Stones to launch Windows 95.  

Yet in the last decade can you name a single ad campaign from Microsoft that you remember?  Didn't think so.  

I think what we are seeing here is the fact that MS is being run by committee and committees are too risk averse.  So we get these dumb ads from MS that sound like they were written by a freshman English major.

Regards

Joe Dokes

Did those that made the ad know that it was wrong? If so, then it was a lie., but I'm not convinced that anyone should have known, other than PCWorld. I read it and I didn't know. But at least they pulled the ad one week later. If they really wanted to lie, they could have used the ad for a year, so I still have doubts. I read bad studies in medical journals all the time [Flawed methodology such as data gathering or bad statistics, inappropriate assumptions or conclusions, etc..], but less knowledgeable people read them and consider them accurate.

Anyway thanks Wae for the reassurance. I did everything the way that you suggested, purchased from HP web site, got the HP warranty [laptop had a $500 off coupon from the HP site] and got the DVD install disk for $19 and NO NORTON. I emailed the free OneCare at Amazon after rebate page to friends and family and got a good response. One partner claimed her VPN stopped working after the OneCare install, but I installed it on my 3 PC computers and had no problem with our VPN at all. But she often has these types of problems. Go figure.

Doc Wambo, :)

You might suggest your friend to check the firewall setting on OneCare settings, and allow the VPN client application in case it is blocked either as an application or as a service.

"Did those that made the ad know that it was wrong? If so, then it was a lie., but I'm not convinced that anyone should have known, other than PCWorld."

Careful with your wordplay there.  I'm sure that's the way PC World would've had it - that nobody *should've* known that it was a lie.

It was, though.  And the evidence backs that up.

@raaj

"Show proof of misleading or false marketing from MS"

"The Wow Starts Now"  ;)

>>Ocean, you know perfectly well the Round Earth theory wasn't *universally* accepted until after the renaissance.

<<

It still wasn't *everyone*.  It was never 'universal'.

.

False Alarm

>>The big tech sites are abuzz today with news of a Windows Vista promotion spotted on Microsoft.com by Ed Bott, the eagle-eyed Windows author and blogger. The banner showed an early sailing ship on the open seas, with the sentence, "At one point, everyone thought the Earth was flat," and the tag line, "Get the facts about Windows Vista."

The widespread assumption is that it's a sneak preview of Microsoft's long-awaited $300 million Windows consumer marketing campaign. But it's not, company spokesman Lou Gellos said when I called today to double-check the reports. It's simply the latest in a regular series of banners on Microsoft's site designed to drive traffic to this site about the operating system, currently headlined, "Windows Vista: Look how far we've come." <<

blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/.../144086.asp

yes, okay ocean, so you're saying it still isn't 'universal'. Well technically, sure. I'm certain there is a lost tribe somewhere who believes it's flat. But then really, nothing's completely 'universal' is it?

Let my rephrase. 'The vast majority of Western civilisation' - happy? Imagine a conversation with you. It'd be neverending nitpicking. Never mind, that's a personal insult and so you 'won't read it'.

Here's a sampling of some of Microsoft's excellent work in deceptive marketing.

#1.  "Confessions of a Mac to PC convert".  The switcher ad that wasn't.   A story about someone that "switch to Windows from the Mac"... only it wasn't written by a consumer.  It was written by a PR hack hired by Microsoft.  Even the image included on the page was fake, taken from Getty Images.

news.cnet.com/2100-1001-961994.html

Was this malintent?  I won't judge.  But it's more deceptive than Apple making an Ad that accurately quotes PC World.

#2.  FTC charges Microsoft with deceptive advertising against Palm

news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-528439.html

"The FTC found that Microsoft's cheeky "Can Your Palm Do That?" ads last year deceptively claimed features that were unavailable unless buyers spent more for wireless capability, lawyers close to the case said. Consumers were told of this in nearly unreadable print at the bottom of the ads"

#3.  Vista-capable.  Recognized internally by Microsoft execs as confusing and deceptive to consumers in an effort to move out-of-date PCs.

Now, I'm not saying Microsoft is "evil" or whatever.  But if you're defending them and bashing Apple for quoting a PC World article in one of their ads... you're throwing stones in a glass house.

Hey Paul See this ADV

channel9.msdn.com/.../417018-Vista-The-fightback-begins

;)

I disagree with the two statements. First it was clearly stated in the Mac ad that PC world made published the statement and they did. Yep, they went back and revised it to make it correct. In the computer industery, it could take just one day to best the the fastest computer. In a court of law, a claim that the ad is deceptive has no merit. that's very standard in the industry as well.

Vista capable claim, if a computer can run any form of Vista, it's capable. The debate in court would be if capable includes all forms of Vista. Agian, in the industry, a more robust computer is faster and has more capabilities, whereas a cheapm POS cannot. So I would pass these both. At least you all should agree that if you call one deceptive, then the other is just as bad. People will certainly disagree depending on many factors. Personally, I dictate 70 to 100 legal documents daily and have done expert witness testimony, so the my opinion. Many of you may disagree and that's fine too. I think that you're own perception would be OK for yourself and many.

@Doc,

I think the problem with the Vista-Capable debacle isn't the fact that these low-end junk PCs wouldn't boot the OS.  It was the sheer complexity of the messaging overall that created a sense of consumer (and retailer) confusion over what the product was they were buying and selling. The Aero interface is, from a consumer standpoint, one of the only real improvements of Vista besides security.

It's sad that Microsoft's engineers could not create a graphics subsystem with the flexibility of Apple's Quartz, which looks and works the same on a new machine or a 5 year old G4.  I have a 400mhz G4 Cube from 2001 running Tiger just fine with the exact same interface and features like Expose fully functional (though, admittedly, Leopard cuts off support at 866mhz G4s... which is still pretty darn good).  But if you were seeing "Vista Capable" and expecting to get the "wow" of Aero... what you got was less than expected and arguably less than you were promised.  "Arguably" is the gray area of the lawsuit.

So, I think the point is simple.  Deceptive marketing is bad whether it's from Apple or Microsoft or Intel or any other firm.  But if you (and by "you" I mean the zealots, not you Doc) are going to claim that Apple is "the worst" based on nothing other than some group-think wincabal consensus and the fact that Apple's marketing is perhaps the only EFFECTIVE marketing in the tech business... expect to be challenged.  Be prepared to defend that allegation with more than "they pointed out a PC World article that turned out to be questionable".

Waethorn is still ignoring the fact that the "laptop" which was at the time faster than the Macbook was a 11lb+, $5200 beast with a quad-core desktop processor.  Come on people.  This is the guy that rails against Apple's "price gouging" yet is happy to point to some loony fringe desktop with a screen attached to prove that Apple lies?  Give me a break.  That's not intellectual honesty.  That's expediency to prove your point at any cost.

I certainly agree about the laptop as stated. But I do have one shocking finding today. My nephews laptop from P as above was agreat deal, but when I configured the high end HP to similar specs of the MBP, without any other upgrades to the MBP, I found that the HP was $1000 cheaper. While there are no lies in it, that's a big difference. I even gave the HP 64 bit Vista, bluetooth and anything that the MBP had and got around $1700, without the $500 off coupon, while the MBP started at $2700 for  what I think was a similar configuration. I also added DVD software to the HP, since it's included with the MBP. iTunes is free on both of course. That's quite a difference. But I certainly don't see any deception with the ad, and It apparently was pulled anyway. It was probably outdated at it's airtime release. Still, honesty is a comperable price, and that acclaimed faster laptop wasalmost twice the price, so my take was that the MBP, at the time was faster than other similar priced laptops.

@Doc,

Yeah, we're in total agreement on the ad.  Waethorn throws around the word "lie" with real disregard for the consequences.  It's a serious charge and as such, demands hard proof of knowing deception.

Certainly, at any given time, you can find a PC that will beat a comparable Mac on price.  I'd never argue that the Mac is the cheapest option or the best in any case.  As I think you know, I only argue for the reasonable viability of the platform as an option for most consumers.  As you very astutely pointed out... the paradox of choice is very real and Apple's focused lineup makes for a great buying experience... so long as they have what you need.  If they don't have what you need... buy something else.  Isn't it great that we live in a world of choice?  I'm disturbed and dismayed by those (like Waethorn or Enderle) that truly root for the death of the Apple choice.  They're rooting against the interests of all computer users.

I have to say that while I think that Vista, OS X and Ubuntu are all good operating systems that people here need to look at the issue without blinkers.

Microsoft is far from an Angel, you just have to look at the DOJ and EU investigations for proof.

David Pogue has listed some of the shaky conduct of Microsoft.

pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/.../a-wake-up-call-to-microsofts-pr-team

•Giving Bloggers $2,200 computers to write favourably about Vista

•The fake Confessions of a  Mac to PC switcher

•Letters to the editor of support for Microsoft that purported to come from ordinary folk when in fact they came from Microsoft's PR team

•hiring someone to do "friendly" edits of Wiki entries

Apple can hardly be blamed for certain shortcomings in Windows:

•stability

*susceptibility to viruses, malware and spyware

*too many versions of Windows

•the Vista capable scandal

•networking problems

•bloatware

•lack of iLife type software

•poor support from PC manufacturers (not MS's fault either)

•cryptic error messages

•PC vendors selling the sizzle not the steak (not MS's fault either)

•taking so long to release Vista that software/hardware houses lost confidence that it would ever appear and did not write anything for it

The Apple adverts.  Lots of gnashing of teeth here ,but what do they say?

•iLife is good

•Macs give a good out of the box experience

•Apple support is class leading

•stability

•fewer problems with malware and viruses

•popular with Students

•runs MS Offfice

•Time Machine is a nice back-up solution

I certainly see a lot of FUD in this blog

FUD = Macs are expensive

Truth = Macs are about 9% more expensive than PCs but many households qualify for the 15% higher ed discounts and 3 years of Applecare get thrown into the deal too

FUD = Macs are not popular outside the US

Truth = Macs are popular in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the UK, Western Europe and Japan too

The 'Get a Mac' adverts that criticise Windows are clever but not entirely fair.  They dredge up old problems with 3.11, W95, W98 and XP.  Many of these no longer apply to Vista, but anyone who has had 'Windows problems' can identify with them.  They bring back some old and not very nice memories.

FUD = Macs are more vulnerable to malware

Truth = There are some theoretical vulnerabilities but in the real world Mac users are sunning themselves on the beach while Windows users are in a firefight in Afghanistan

@Mary W The 'Get a Mac' campaign was popular in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and Germany too

@DRWAM I lecture in ethics and the 'Vista Capable' scandal was hardly ethical.  Microsoft will probably be hit financially by this too in the class action.  Not very bright.

Avro, I responded [late since I never think to check my mailbox] to your Palm note.

Cheers,

Doc

@Avro - That is a nice Apple slanted view...one that I would expect from Pogue. Below are some counterpoints.

•hiring someone to do "friendly" edits of Wiki entries

Anybody that uses wikipedia as a source of "truth" or "accuracy" should ALWAYS be questioned.

•stability

What stability issues are you talking about here?

*too many versions of Windows

In some peoples' opinions...but I would venture to guess that there are some people that wanted choice.

•the Vista capable scandal

I reluctantly will give you this...although, I believe that in order to receive this label, a PC had to be able to run Vista Home Basic at the very least.

•lack of iLife type software

This is a shortcoming? In whose opinion? Can you say "Bundling"? In fact, some may consider this "bloatware".

•cryptic error messages

All OSes have those. Even OS X.

•iLife is good - OPINION. I happen to like offerings from other companies.

•Macs give a good out of the box experience - OPINION. As does Vista...to some people, same as OS X.

•Apple support is class leading -OPINION, and don't even think about mentioning the Genius Bars...those people do not know that much about OS X...let alone networking or other possible problems. Their goal is to sell an additional product...plain and simple.

•stability

Again, explain the stability advantage of OS X over Vista.

•Time Machine is a nice back-up solution

Nice to look at maybe...but there have been plenty of issues with it. For starters see www.macobserver.com/.../07.12.shtml

As I have said before...both Windows and OS X are good OSes, and there are plenty of others as well. For every negative that you can make about Vista, somebody will find one on OS X - and vice versa.

--tayme

@tayme

The Consumers Association here (Which?) reports Apple as having an 87% approval rating.  The next highest up is Lenovo at 64%.  It is just not opinion.  CNET and Ars Technica report similar numbers in the US.

I have never had to use the Genius Bar but I have found Apple support excellent.  A problem with a MacBook was put right in 3 hours, two weeks for the same problem on our Dell.

No need to diss iLife.  A full rich suite, not at all like the trial bloatware on PCs.  I may prefer Numbers to Excel, but Excel still is a good app.

The stability advert referred to XP.  I have had apps on XP quit for no reason at all and screen freezes.  Strangely enough on OS X only MS Word and Entourage have given me similar problems but not as often as on XP.

Too many versions.  This is what puts many people off Vista.  One version will do fine with a family pack for multi-using households.

Some computer execs tried to set-up a Vista PC for the internet.  They were beaten by a 9 year old with a Mac.

Time Machine It has always worked fine for me but granted there were some issues with OS X when it first came out.

Vista, OS X and Ubuntu all have their pluses and minuses.  The one advantage Apple has is the integration of software and hardware.  Less choice to be sure, but it satisfies my computing needs even on Windows!  As I mentioned before my Mac Pro has given me the best Windows experience ever.  I think a lot more of Windows and its capabilities than I have ever before.

iLife is probably the biggest reason why I use my Mac [more like iMovie and iDVD], but it's funny that you mention that your Mac has given you the your best Windows experience, because that's how I feel too. In fact, because I have sorted out the problems with our PACS software and Vista, showing that it can work well, I can now encourrage my partners to go ahead and buy new Vista computers. So, a Mac runing well is responsible for more Vista sales, not even mentioning those if us dual booting with Vista. Go figure! Ya gotta admit that the default Vista monitor background is really eye catching, even though my favorite color is blue. Kudos to the graphic artist. Although some days I'd like to change my wife's background to flowers, so that I might not have to plant those 100 tulip bulbs this fall. My poor achin' back!

Wouldn't it be funny if we became some of the best Vista advocates around?

I wouldn't advise anybody to buy a cheapie computer to run any OS.  You need something that gives you a good experience.

@Tayme,

First, it needs to be said that Apple has every right to target problems in earlier versions of windows with their ads.   If 70% of consumers are on XP, Apple should be targeting issues that resonate with that group, regardless of whether Vista addresses the problem.  They'd be negligent not to.

I'd agree that purely in software terms, stability and security are a wash between the platforms.  But the variability in hardware and driver quality on Windows leads to effectively lower stability on the PC.  It's not necessarily Microsoft's fault... but it's a reality for people and they don't care whose fault it is. Vista may be more secure in the lab than OSX as well... but Windows long history of massive attacks and the billions in lost productivity are totally fair game for Apple given the record of real world attacks on the mac.  That said, I don't think Apple has been pushing the security angle hard lately.  They know not to say "bring it on".

Windows definitely throws more cryptic error messages at you.  No question.  Again, it's a function of the horizontal market.  But it's a reality.

Apple's support and customer satisfaction are well documented as being better than any Windows PC vendor by a wide margin from both Consumer reports and PC magazine surveys.  There's no run around and finger pointing as is so often the case in the PC world.  This is reason enough to buy from Apple for many including myself.

Time Machine is a great solution that provide both data versioning and redundancy in one interface (as well as a transparent file structure if you don't like the wiz-bang UI).  It has already saved me twice.  Does "previous versions" save to another drive to protect from drive failure?  Is there a built-in mechanism with the equivalent integrated functionality of Time Machine that's one-button easy for consumers?  Time machine can 100% restore a crashed drive within the same mechanism that saves versions.  Vista may have all of this stuff.  I don't know.

iLife is great.  Period.  Whether it's better for the individual user depends on their needs.  No software can serve all users equally.  Any effort to do so produces bloat and complexity.  Paul has repeated called it superior to any similar suite on Windows.  It's not the end-all-be-all, but no question it's the highest quality and best value with the best integration.  iLife in many ways matters more for consumers than OSX.

Vista Versions - Paul has been one of the most outspoken critics of this.  Without question, this versioning is bad for consumers.  The paradox of choice at work.

@Avro... With regard to your Mac Pro on Windows experience... I AGREE!  Apple's bootcamp driver backage and subsequent software is superior to any other OEM for Windows.  Even little touches like the nice OSX-style volume controls via the dedicated keyboard are great.

I still can't understand why so my OEM's write applications for basic stuff like DVD and system volume with skins that look like a 1982 version of the future.

@Avro - I was not trying to diss Apple or their products...only making a point that the point-counterpoint will never stop!

Like you, My MBP is an awesome Vista lappy. I've been running Vista under Bootcamp for about 3 weeks now, and not one issue. My good old HP desktop has also been very solid with Vista, and it was an XP SP2 upgrade, not a clean install. It has a decent TV tuner card, and I am a huge fan of the MediaCenter/XB360 integration. Now with a good Vista lappy, I can take some of my recorded TV on the road with me. My old IBM T42 is a great XP/Ubuntu dual booter. My daughter is the primary user of the old G5 iMac right now...it is getting a little sluggish, but that might be an illusion caused by the new MBP. It actually froze up on her the other day, and sounded like a jet taxiing for takeoff(fans at high speed).

Anyway - I am a geek and I buy a new PC almost every year. My wife would tell you that I never get rid of the old ones, but she would be wrong :-). I just donated several to a local charity that preps them and gives them to inner-urban families.

--tayme

Tayme, you are actually an uber-geek. I am more of a jock and a geek-wanna-be, but at least buy a new rig every two years. I used to give them to my family, but since my wife popped out 3 kids in under 11 months, and they are now in school, they use them a lot. Yesterday, all five of us where on a computer at the same time. Of course, it was peaceful for me...using the one in the basement. But that's where MY bathroom is anyway!

Doc

@Doc - you are correct. Yikes, 3 kids that close in age...I hope that at least one of them is a boy, for your sake!!!

Do you ever try to mix the geek/jock worlds...ie, using the iPod/Nike thingy? Its not real "jocky" but you should look into geocaching - http://www.geocaching.com/  It is one way to mix geekiness with outdoors. It gets me and my wife outdoors and on some pretty long hikes. Our daughter used to join us, but it lost its coolness about the same time that she discovered boys!!!

--tayme

Tayme, the kids are a little young for geocaching right now, but I'll try later. Our identical twins were born when our oldest wasn't even 11 months old. When the Ob doc [a friend] found out, his comment was "see what those steroids will do to you"! Real nice. And they are all girls. However, it was a blessing as the twins were monoamniotic, which has a 30 to 50% mortality, so they deliver them earlier than usual. Therefore, they would be premature [at 33 wks], but females preemies have a lower mortality and morbidity rate when compared to males. Our biggest problem when they came home two weeks after the delivery was trying to figure out which one was which. We kept the name tagfs on them for a wile then decided to paint their toe nails, so they were color coded! BTW, they are definitely Windows kids. In first grade, they already made a Powerpoint presentation on their 3 favorite colors. I had the day off so I was able to attend, then save to a USB flash drive. Yep, I carry one most days. They are really cute, so I need to keep lifting weights to be prepared when they start dating.

Regards,

Doc

I also have a miricle child...she was born with a heart defect...TAPVC. 3 open heart surgeries later and she has outlived expectations by almost 19 years. Still has issues every now and again...but we are all used to that.

--tayme

Wow. God bless her. I trained in Ped Radiology at CHOP in Philly, which was a center for Hypoplastic Left Heart Syndrome, but I have only seen one case of TAPVR, and that was in training. There are two of us in our group of 27 that get the 'abnormal heart' studies, except for one or two MRI experts that do the MRI stuff, but it's few and far between because CHOP is so close. Keep up the good work as even one can be a handful and little girls can be picky. For example, since this is a tech blog my 6 yr old's eMachine mobo died, but I had a spare with the same socket. But the eMachine was a microATX and the spare mobo was ATX. I bought a new beautiful Sagitta and fixed it up, but she didn't like it. It was ugly. I learned then it would have been easier just to buy the cheap $45 microATX mobo, so I gutted it, again, then rebuilt it, again. She's happy now. Anyway may God keep watching over you all.

Doc

I was a fireman for 13 years and an EMT for 3.

Kids are always the toughest to handle in terms of patients. Not a s patients mind you, but when something is wrong and you have to work on them knowing they are not going to make it...

That is tough Dude.

I was on the phone with an angry, depressed patient today for at least an hour. I was not the doc that did that did her surgery, but was the guy that gave her the bad news that her anastomosis had a leak [I did her BE]. Wow did she MF every other word! Then she cried , then got angry, then cried. I felt so sorry for her and tried to comfort as much as I could. She needs some Psych help to deal with the grief. Then, we need the same to deal with some of the depressing events, such as what you described above. It's a shame that we learn to build up a wall to cope.

Anyway, I also responded to show how much all of us have in common. My dad was a Prof. Firefighter. He died from a ruptured AAA. Stay healthy gang, especially for your families.

Peace,

Doc

"Giving Bloggers $2,200 computers to write favourably about Vista"

Actually, they gave them computers to "write" about Vista, not favorably or unfavorably.  Just like Apple gives the iPhone as a pre-release to Pogue and Mossberg.  All companies do similar thing inside or outside the computer industry, so this a bogus argument.  Do you think Car & Driver or Road & Track buys all of the cars they review?

@Dipsh t Admin

Loaning them would be more appropriate.  You avoid conflict of interest accusations.  Reviewers such as Top Gear some times get refused loaners because their previous reviews have had a bit too much truth in them.

[...] Avro made an excellent post today on their site [...]...

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