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Wow. almost 10 minutes so far and nobody from the iCabal has commented on how Paul's negative comments on Windows Mobile are somehow an unfair attack on Apple.

Funny how MS only addresses Apple as its competitor when the reason for its not selling more licenses is elsewhere. Consider:

"Windows Mobile sold more than 18 million licenses in fiscal year 2008"

If I remember correctly, Nokia sells on average more Symbian-S60 devices and licenses in a single quarter. MS's direct competitor, RIM, is growing fast globally, too.

I wonder if people who buy iPhones even consider Windows Mobile in the first place. They are aimed at different segments anyway. iPhone resides in the consumer segment, while Windows Mobile is an enterprise-oriented solution.

Why does MS boast about their selling more Windows Mobiles than Apple sells iPhones? Why is this relevant? Or are they simply trying to sugar-coat their years-long failure in the mobile phone space by diverting people's attention to irrelevant matters such that it looks as if they were actually successful...

Wow. WinJihadist Mike is the first to attempt to turn the attention from Microsoft's failure to meet its own sales target and its continuing less-than-stellar performance in this area by setting up a straw man.

@Tero

Interesting point.  I think Windows Mobile aims to be as much a consumer device as it does an enterprise device.  If you go to the official WM website you will see that most of the pages are dominated with personalization stuff, media stuff, and the like.  Of course business users done care about those things, but MSFT wants to push Windows Mobile further into the consumer segment.  Do I think they can be successful at this?  Well, they are directly competing with the iPhone in that pursuit and the iPhone is quite a bit more impressive to put it lightly.  You are right to say they should be more focused on RIM.

Maybe this is another area to apply Paul's 2 SKU theory for Windows.  Maybe there should be the extremely business oriented version of Windows Mobile to put on your Blackjack or Moto Q, and then a new fun and personal version (maybe tied in with the zune)  on a single piece of new hardware in iPhone fashion.

The good part is that competition will force Microsoft to make Windows Mobile better, fix the start menu centric-interface and so on.  This is a good thing as I'm not much of a fan of the current version.  

Well, that didn't take long...

Now, to point out what all of you seem to have missed in your "They're picking on the Jesus Phone" whines...

The iPhone is mentioned in only 1 paragraph and that was citing an IDC report.

Paul's comments never mentioned the iPhone.

RIM was mentioned in 1 bullet.

Nothing else even mentions competitors.

Odd that you all seem to think this is an attack on Apple.

Here a question for your Mike, only talking MS products now, IF Exchange Server did not exist how may WM licenses do you think they would sell?

I am thinking no many.  Considerably less than any other vendor.

WM blows chunks, always has but....it works great and was the only thing that worked great with Exchange until now.

Snake,

Who knows. If LCDs didn't exist, how many smartphones would exist? It exists and people love Exchange integration on their Windows Mobile phones. Even Apple had to license it (and pathetically call it ActiveStink on stage)

Of course, for a product that you think "blows chunks" Windows Mobile went from 11M to 18M sales in the past year. That's a 64% growth rate (since Apple fans keep saying how year over year growth rate is all that matters)  in the same year they gained a very visible "competitor" (I use quotes since people here keep saying that WM and iPhone don't compete - but only when faced with WM sales numbers)

Yep you missed the point completely.  You brought up iCabal or whatever its called.  MS should not have even mention the iPhone...at all.  BB yes.  WM is by far a business product and the iPhone is by far a consumer product.

My point is this, Windows Mobile has success because it is the best mobile OS for Exchange or was until the iPhone 2.0 firmware 20 days ago or whatever.  Exchange is very popular in the business world and WM compared to BB is free as in you dont need to buy a BES server and CAL's for you BB clients, since WM connects to your OWA server that you already have.

So people want WM access to Exchange data, IT budgets like WM over BB because of the much lower cost, Exchange is used by something like 70% of corporations so......WM is going to automatically going to generate sales, lots of them, especially since Exchange has sold over 100million licenses.

That said, as a long time Exchange administrator, most people HATE, WM, it locks up, it never closes applications, it gets put on many underpowered phones.

Also remember that Microsoft bought that cell phone company that makes the sidekick. This happen right after the iPhone first came out and windows mobile 7 is looking really good if they made their own zune phone. Also windows mobile has many companies developing devices and htc right now is doing great at it. Windows mobile  is also very flexible it is really easy to create apps for it since it uses similar code/tools to windows.

We can all go back and fort on iPhone VS WM Vs Android VS... but we wont know until the next generation phones come out in the end of 2009/2010. I think it could go either way.

Snake, you are wasting your breath here:

www.linkedin.com/.../mikegalos

As if he is going to be anything but biased.

Dude

So what did I say that was biased?

Really. Back up your attacks or don't bother.

Snake

Windows Mobile doesn't separate "Business" and "Consumer" phones and, apparently, neither do Apple or RIM based on Apple's enterprise push or RIM's consumer advertising.

If Microsoft hadn't mentioned iPhone at all, the response would almost certainly have been, "Microsoft's afraid to mention the iPhone. Guess Apple's really hurting them." Given all the press that Apple's product has generated, not mentioning it would have been the story had Microsoft gone that way.

"This happen right after the iPhone first came out and windows mobile 7 is looking really good if they made their own zune phone."

A Zune phone would be a guaranteed failure just like the Zune. Just like Vista, you're going to have a perception problem with the brand name "Zune" when winning over consumers to buy the product.

"As if he is going to be anything but biased."

Cool so now Mike can be referred to as the resident Bill O' Reilly of the SuperSite Blog.

DarkSages,

A small correction. Microsoft bought the company that makes the software used on the Sidekick, not a phone company or the hardware company that makes it.

As for developing apps, absolutely. You don't get 18,000 applications for a phone without a good SDK. And that's certainly a low number. I've written several for either personal or limited use and I know quite a few other developers who have written WM apps that were never meant for commercial or corporate distribution. It's just easy to do if you already know .NET programming.

As for the 2009/10 timeframe. I'd agree that will be an interesting time in this segment of the industry. The growth phase has barely started.

SacredCow

Comparing me to Bill Orally is fighting words.

Mike-

Attack? Hardly. I am merely pointing out that based on your work history you are hardly going to be overly crtical or negative about Apple and rarely critical about anything MS related.

And in all actuality I'm fine with that. Why you ask?  Because you don't feign to be a fan of Apple unlike a certain someone whose name graces this "Windows Supersite", but is anything but.

Think back to your MS days, despite what  I'm sure will be a firm denial its apparent that MS is/has been/always will be focused on what is coming out of 1 Infinite Loop. Witness Ballmer's latest email to the troops at Redmond for proof. For a company that is 3.5% of the WW marketshare, MS sure seems to obsessive about them, and Google, but that is another issue altogether.

And SacredCow is kinda right in his analysis. This blog and your commentary has indeed made this the "Fox News" of the IT blog-o'sphere. Which again is fine when put into context, but in a way reminds me of why I'm not fond of either political party and find Fox News skewed despite their protestations to the contrary, much like this blog, but I digress into the political banter.

And lastly asking for the Apple partisans to chime in. Troll much? You'll find that many people here read the non-apple threads (of which there are less and less) and do not comment on them. Its the taking Apple to task (often unfairly) or with inane or hyperbolic statements that causes the comments.

Lastly, is this your blog now? Could have sworn it had Paul's name on it...

Dude,

btw: thanks for reminding me that I hadn't updated my LinkedIn profile in a while.

HOLY MS FANGIRL that linked in profile was hilarious!!!!  Never use your real name in a blog.

Wow just wow!  I think Weelittleonhorn is really an alias for Mike:)

More like the Keith Olbermann with his zealous for MS!

Dude,

Thinking back to my Microsoft employee days (and that was a while ago), for most of it, Apple was both a major competitor and a major partner. That's often the way it is in this industry.

Personally, I wish that Macintosh was more of a serious competitor and the fact that they've been stagnant at around the 3% mark for over a decade is something I personally find sad. The fact that they've given up on doing their own OS and have fallen back on using Unix is something I find actually tragic. Personally, I wish they were back to innovating in the computing field rather than focusing on chic consumer electronics. It was good for the industry.

The reason I've been posting here has been the mind numbing proliferation of fact-free posts (now there's your FOX analogue) bashing Vista and Microsoft. You'll note that I don't tend to reply without facts and I do my homework first. I do tend to point out when the anti-Microsoft partisans use different rules for products and people they like versus ones they've decided to dislike. I also tend to post when people post opinions as fact or post things as fact that are flat out wrong. I wouldn't call that biased. I'd call that keeping the discussion honest.

"HOLY MS FANGIRL that linked in profile was hilarious!!!!  Never use your real name in a blog.

Wow just wow!  I think Weelittleonhorn is really an alias for Mike:)

More like the Keith Olbermann with his zealous for MS!"

I guess when you have no valid argument, you use every little piece of information that you get from the internet, eh? Sad.

Snake

I always use my real name precisely because I don't think ignorance helps a discussion.

The fact that I have a few decades playing a serious role in the heart of this industry is hardly something I'd want to hide and might help people know both where I'm coming from and what expertise I bring to the discussion.

Now, as for comparing me to Keith Olbermann, that I'll take as high praise, indeed.

Paul,

"Still, I have a hard time embracing Windows Mobile as an innovative, exciting, or even interesting platform"

I'll take Windows Mobile over that stupid iPhone any day.

JamesNT

Your just like him, why not be happy with the Keith resemblance.

I am not a fan of Bill O hardly at all, think he loves him self a bit to much, but the few times I have actually watched his show, he is the closest thing that network has to "Fair and Balanced", not close at all really but he at least he invites people on his show that I know he cant stand, talks to them nicely, polite, with tact and lets them talk.  Even thanks them for being "brave" for coming on his show.

Keith on the other hand (while I agree with 98% of his message) is a first class in, your face Jack @r$$e.  He lives to put people down to the point....his points are muted.  He cant shut up about Bill O, daily almost, yet Bill O (from what I have seen) never says anything about him.  Only guests I see on Keiths show are politicians that totally agree with him, or Hollywood talking idiots that help him put down Bill O and crowd.....so mature.  Maybe that is why Bil Ol is killing him in raitings.

So Keith I have no problem with posting your work history on the net, be free with it.  I mean it was already totally obvious you were MS biased to the bone, coming into every conversation with a THANG for putting down Apple, lots of times when it does not fit into the conversation (see post 1 of this thread) this just helps us with any smidgen of doubt we may have had.

Peace Keith.....Paul, MS and MSNBC has got your back.

@JamesNT

I guess I'm unsure as to why thurrott doesn't like WinMobile.

I will admit when I bough an old WM device running WinMobile2003, I thought it was just plain awful. At best I managed to put a Millipede clone on it for kicks.

However I recently bought a Pocket PC with WM6 and I have been really impressed with it. Yeah it needed a better task manager, which was an easy freeware download for me, but it has really been a nice device and OS to have.

Having hundreds of thousands of programs, and the ability to customize the heck out of it, doesn't hurt either.

I guess I need a better idea of what he thinks "innovative, exciting, or even interesting platform" entails.

JamesNT  said:

Paul,

"Still, I have a hard time embracing Windows Mobile as an innovative, exciting, or even interesting platform"

I'll take Windows Mobile over that stupid iPhone any day.

JamesNT

However if MS came up the iPhone with Angels would be singing and world peace would follow soon thereafter...

My contentions is that Paul wishes for the same thing; An Apple iPhone experience sans the Apple logo. And as soon as one comes close, look out.

You'll take  WinMo over the iPhone? Previously I was considering the Blackjack until I saw what it was running on, then ran away from it as fast as I could. You can put lipstick on a pig... its still a pig which is all WM 6 is.

Mike you keep harping on UNIX as if its a bad thing. Backbone of the intrawebs and all, pretty much says it all.

"MS should not have even mention the iPhone...at all.  BB yes.  WM is by far a business product and the iPhone is by far a consumer product. "

Very good argument ... except that devices like HTC Diamond are actually consumer devices.So, Microsoft mentioning Apple once in the paragraph is just as relevant as your beloved Mac ads.

"Comparing me to Bill Orally is fighting words."

He didn't compare you orally. He compared you in writing.

Sheesh...

;-)

Yeah so many consumers are waiting in line for the HTC Diamond.  I bet there will be a line forming what 10....15 seconds before it goes on sale?

"However if MS came up the iPhone with Angels would be singing and world peace would follow soon thereafter..."

The good thing about Apple is that they get people to want stuff that no one really needs. Of course, they're helped by their army of journalists like Pogue and Goatberg.

If Microsoft had come up with a product like the iPhone, it would have been universally panned and a big failure.

"Yeah so many consumers are waiting in line for the HTC Diamond.  I bet there will be a line forming what 10....15 seconds before it goes on sale?"

Wait. How does that help your argument that the iPhone doesn't compete with Windows Mobile?

I guess it's hard for you to say you were wrong without being snarky.

Dude

Unix was a good idea for a teletype and serial communication world at AT&T in 1970. But that's eons ago in computer terms and the underpinnings (null termination, ipc via sequential serial character streams, etc) are something that holds back the industry. Yes, a modern Unix has new stuff on top of that but the core is too old to justify itself and everything has to work with that crufty core.

As for "backbone of the interwebs and all that", it also explains why we still have spam. The old protocols weren't built for this kind of world and maintaining compatibility with those old protocols (the are "STANDARDS" you know) is why email is such a nightmare. Everybody (but the Unix diehards) including Microsoft and Apple have been trying to get those underpinning ripped out but...

shark47

Can you imagine what the outcry would have been if a Microsoft phone had shipped with only admin level accounts for all software and firmware, had weak passwords that were not even salted and were obtained by the hacker community via a dictionary attack within a week of shipping?

Or if they introduced a radio stack that dropped voice calls when you drove from a 3G to a 2G cell? (Ask Guy Kawasaki about that one)

But, on the Apple side, near silence.

@shark47

"If Microsoft had come up with a product like the iPhone, it would have been universally panned and a big failure."

All of the little bugs and annoyances, instead of being played down and justified as they are sometimes with the iPhone, would be drilled as proof positive of Microsoft's incompetence.

Dude1313 said:

JamesNT  said:

Paul,

"Still, I have a hard time embracing Windows Mobile as an innovative, exciting, or even interesting platform"

I'll take Windows Mobile over that stupid iPhone any day.

@JamesNT

"My contentions is that Paul wishes for the same thing; An Apple iPhone experience sans the Apple logo. And as soon as one comes close, look out.

You'll take  WinMo over the iPhone? Previously I was considering the Blackjack until I saw what it was running on, then ran away from it as fast as I could. You can put lipstick on a pig... its still a pig which is all WM 6 is."

What exactly is this experience? Is it the fancy transitions between various screens or nice looking icons? What exactly is this defined as?

And what exactly makes WM6 a pig?

I'm seriously curious.

"I think Weelittleonhorn is really an alias for Mike"

Sorry, but I don't put up with your american BS.

....er....

I think this use of ActiveSync in the iPhone was just the beginning.  I predict that the next iPhone (code named "XV" since it will add "cut and paste" capability) will also have WM functionality.  Steve Jobs will want a piece of the WM biz by offering a dual-boot iPhone, both OSX lite and WM7.  Why? Because by then, WM7 will have increased MS app capability:  Not only Word, Excel, and PPT, but also Access, Project, Visio, and a Sql Srv client, not to mention an improved Terminal services client for remote access of Vista running on your Mac at home.  People years from now will recognize that Bootcamp was the start down the slippery slope for Apple.  

"WM7 will have increased MS app capability:  Not only Word, Excel, and PPT, but also Access, Project, Visio, and a Sql Srv client, not to mention an improved Terminal services client for remote access of Vista running on your Mac at home"

They already have SQL Server Compact available for applications on Windows Mobile.  

www.microsoft.com/.../details.aspx

I kind of wonder if someone could make up a WM app that does photo management and editing, and ties into the SQL Compact db from Windows Live Photo Gallery on the desktop.  WL Photo Gallery ALSO uses SQL Compact - just the full desktop Windows edition of it.  Hmm....

Terminal Services on Windows Mobile already connects to Windows Vista on any system too.  The client software just utilizes the RDP protocol.  The server does most of the work.

"it also explains why we still have spam"

Yeah because it could not be the billion windows boxes (says Paul) that are hacked to pieces and turned into zombies.  No its the UNIX servers that run the back bone of the internet....yeah thats it.

dgrisman

SQL Server has been around for Windows Mobile for a while.

I don't know whether we'll see an iPhone Bootcamp or an iPhone Parallels (persoally, I doubt it) but Steve Jobs touting 3 ways to run Windows apps as one of the key new features of Leopard was not a good sign for future Macintosh specific apps. When the app you wrote for 96% of the market runs acceptably on the next 3.5% of the market, there's little incentive to do separate apps for that 3.5%. (Not zero, but not a lot)

That was the mistake IBM made with their "Better Windows than Windows" campaign for OS/2 Warp. Most of the devs said, "Hmmm, my existing winapps work fine on OS/2. Why hassle with writing a separate OS/2 app?" and they lost their remaining developer base. You can do that for compatibility or transition if you're the leader (like the OS/2 or Posix subsystems in Windows NT, Subsystem for UNIX-Based Applications in Vista Ultimate or HyperV in Windows Server 2008) but when you're #2 it is a losing game.

Snakedoctor.

Nope. You're flat out wrong on this one. Spam exists because of the design of the Internet's Unix-based email protocols. Sorry to break it to you. It can't be changed without killing interop of all those mail servers. It's been a source of industry debate and flat out fighting for well over a decade now.

"Wait. How does that help your argument that the iPhone doesn't compete with Windows Mobile?"

Well lets see, nobody but Windows Mobile users/business customers will know about the HTC phone, and I am guessing there will be hardly any news (mainstream news that consumers watch) and their wont be lines of consumer types out in front of the stores its sold at for days before its launched....so I am pretty sure is easy for most to see the difference, between the consumer oriented iPhone and the HTC oriented buisness/Exchange user.

I would never say that WM phones are ONLY for buisness and that the iPhone is ONLY a consumer phone in fact I did not......

"WM is by far a business product and the iPhone is by far a consumer product"

Various phone vendors are trying fancy up WM (see lip stick on a pig) and go consumer oriented but so far they have not had much luck.

Dam the BIAS Keith, sorry I dont bite.  I mean your leader Mr. Gates said that SPAM was going to be gone by now just two years ago....using the MS email ID solution???  What happened?

www.webpronews.com/.../gates-believes-spam-will-be-eliminated-within-two-years

Let see that was in late 04, so two year later Vista came out....maybe he thought it was going to sell like the iPhone, and that UAC would stop the zombies.

Your logic is like saying the freeways are killing people on the road, not the drunk drivers.

Nice try Keith.

BTW:  I used a Blackberry Bold 8130 today, and all I have to say is the keyboard is a complete joke.  When typing in certain fields, you have to click a button twice to get the second letter on it.  Ok, that's fine and all.  But in the browser, some fields don't work like that.  Instead they only accept the first button press, so if you press twice, it figures you want the first letter TWICE.  Only if you press the first letter, then backspace (marked "DEL" on the keypad instead), and then press the same button again, does it give you the second letter.  The dropdown suggestion box also tends to capitalize many words that have been typed in lowercase.

Overall, a completely frustrating ordeal, and not worth the $0 that Cdn mobile providers are offering it for.  I guess there's a reason why they give them away.  I realize that my aging Q is still far better.  Waiting for the Touch Diamond to come out on Telus....

Also, has anybody heard that Telus and Bell are switching to GSM/HSPA?  It's apparently quite true....both are making the move primarily because they are big sponsers of the 2010 Olympics and want to have global network support.  The change will be permanent when it's finalized though.  It would seem that only US providers will still be sitting on CDMA/EVDO networks.

Consumer or Business, over eighteen million people last year thought Windows Mobile was the right choice for them.

(Just bringing things back on topic)

"I think Weelittleonhorn is really an alias for Mike"

Sorry, but I don't put up with your american BS.

....er....

Um Ok Keith:)

"Steve Jobs touting 3 ways to run Windows apps as one of the key new features of Leopard was not a good sign for future Macintosh specific apps"

The 11th major OS release for Mac machines will be, quite literally, Windows 8.

Snake

"I would never say that WM phones are ONLY for buisness and that the iPhone is ONLY a consumer phone in fact I did not......

"WM is by far a business product and the iPhone is by far a consumer product""

So, of course then you'd be fine with: "Apple is by far a company that makes MP3 players", right?

If so, I'll be sure to forward any mail from Macintosh and iPhone users unhappy with being trivialized out of existance to you.

(In short, don't weasel word your way out of what you mean)

Snake,

Gee, you did do some homework. The mail ID solution was one of the proposals to fix the broken Unix-based Internet mail protocols that cause spam that got blocked. (In this case, at least partly, because it was a Microsoft solution)

As I said, "Everybody (but the Unix diehards) including Microsoft and Apple have been trying to get those underpinning ripped out but..."

It has nothing to do with zombies. Those are relatively easy to fix. What can't be fixed is the REQUIRED lack of authentication on origin and routing locations that allow spammers to hide their locations. Since the protocols REQUIRE the holes to stay open you can't fix it and stay compliant.

There goes that Keith logic.  Apple is by far a consumer oriented company and yes a good chunk of their income comes from "MP3 Players" no doubt about it and I would imagine most people would agree.

Does that mean they dont care about the business sector no not at all, but facts are facts.

Just like MS is by far a business oriented company with most of its income coming from Office and Windows and most would agree (Paul included) but the also care about the consumer market.

Snake,

by the logic you used by the "by far" weaseling, it would be equally fair to say that Macintosh doesn't compete with real computers because since Apple is "by far" an MP3 vendor, the Macintosh is just an iPod accessory.

That would be ludicrous. Just as ludicrous as your "iPod does't compete with Windows Mobile" premise.

"Consumer or Business, over eighteen million people last year thought Windows Mobile was the right choice for them.

(Just bringing things back on topic)"

Indeed that is the topic. And the number shows how severely MS is getting beating in its supposed core competency--making software, and operating systems in particular--by some hardware company. I mean, MS could sell 80 million licenses a year instead of those 18 million...

Tero,

If 18 Million plus per year licenses for the core of a consumer product is getting severely beaten, what do you call a consumer product company that didn't sell 1/3rd that many despite full channel control?

I know, you'll call it a breakthrough success. :-)

UNIX based?  Oh you mean SMTP RFC 821, that ran on UNIX because that was all that could run it back in 1982?  Yeah the same one that MS uses now as a transport protocol between AD/Exchange Sites and all of its internet email.  Yeah I can see how its a UNIX problem, UNIX must of spawed SMTP.

I actually agree that it need to be updated or replaced, much like BIND added DDNS later in its life.

The problem is money.  No one will adopt a new standard because they want it to to be their own solution, MS and many others are trying to replace it.  Then there is a whole market out there combating malware than many of the vendors, Google, Symantec, MS and many others have created and it makes tons of money.  I mean the more OneCare makes money what incentive does MS have to increase security to the point its not needed?

Meanwhile customers (corporations) are left spending millions on hardware/software to bolt on top of their email systems to filter out the crap.

You cant even get big companies to use RDNS for fear no one else is using it on their SMTP gateways and they will loose email.

So no I dont agree that UNIX is the cause of the problem.  SMTP protocol yes, backed by fighting over who solution should fix the problem.

by the logic you used by the "by far" weaseling, it would be equally fair to say that Macintosh doesn't compete with real computers because since Apple is "by far" an MP3 vendor, the Macintosh is just an iPod accessory.

That would be ludicrous. Just as ludicrous as your "iPod does't compete with Windows Mobile" premise.

JHC your thick Keith, to bad we can create a poll on this lame blog site...

Question is Apple more of a....

A. Consumer oriented company?

B. Business oriented company?

Do the same for Microsoft.

Every now know what the results would be....or everyone but you I take.

I mean you buddy Paul has said so many times.

Maybe I should put it this way...........would Apple be hurt if they could only keep their sales made on business products?  Would MS be hurt if they could only keep the sales of consumer products?  They would both go under.

I love the comment "Real Computers" have you ever used one....oh no I have seen your Linked in profile sorry.

How come snake doctor escapes lotsa's [sic] parade? Is that just because he is anti MS?

Tero, 18M seems to be a lot when you consider it's only OSs that Msft is selling.  The mobile OS market is very fragmented, with most of the players having OS/hardware combos.  But, really, I don't think MSFT takes WM very seriously.  It's almost like they feel they need to keep a "toe int the water" lest they get blindsided like they did in the middle 90s by the internet and Netscape.  Actually, that's an interesting question:  how many of MSFTs ventures outside of Windows and Office are just defensive plays?  And that's not a bad thing to do...they don't want to get caught flat-footed when the next big thing comes along.  MSFT  gains expertise in their non-core competency areas, making a little money at the same time.    

Mike:

# Developer Evangelist at Aditi at Microsoft

# Program Manager at Aditi at Microsoft

All right I get why there is all that silliness going on here and profusion of post from him...

For once we had a great article, with admittedly strange allusion to the iphone in the press comment, as the 2 platform don't compete at all in their target audience, and there comes Mike baiting for the fanbois... I guess Jihadist like Warfare.... and spending time on their keyboard !!!

T-Mobile Shadow, Samsung Blackjack, Motorola Q, HTC Diamond. All consumer oriented WM phones. Now tell me why Apple and MS don't compete?

"...and there comes Mike baiting for the fanbois... "

And the fanbois did take the bait. Wonders!

"I guess Jihadist like Warfare.... "

Yes, and their attacks are getting more and more personal. At least Mike has been civil. I don't understand why you guys had to go after him like that.

And there's nothing wrong with what he said. No one seems to get upset when Paul criticizes Microsoft. But any mention of Apple and the everyone gets their panties in a bunch. And then you guys go and attack anyone who dares defend Microsoft, calling them names like "Winjihadist" etc. Amazing!        

"I don't understand why you guys had to go after him like that."

When they can't make a valid point, they attack the oppositions credibility.  Just like US politics.  Just like Apple.

DaveInLa

Since you care about my credentials to discuss computers, don't forget

Security Program Manager at Aditi at Microsoft

and

Program Manager at Microsoft

(Oh, and I wrote at EDI system before that)

Now, what were your credentials?

Snake

"Oh you mean SMTP RFC 821, that ran on UNIX because that was all that could run it back in 1982?"

You honestly think the only OS around in 1982 was Unix? You've been hanging out with the Linux Fanboi's way, way too much. Perhaps a good history of computers text might be in order...

"Yeah the same one that MS uses now as a transport protocol between AD/Exchange Sites and all of its internet email.  "

The same one EVERYBODY HAS TO USE to be compatible...

Hence the problem. (And, yes, it did start out on Unix and there really were other choices at the time.)

Waethorn

"When they can't make a valid point, they attack the oppositions credibility."

But the nice part of not being anonymous is that I have credibility and they found documentation to prove it.  :-)

"But the nice part of not being anonymous is that I have credibility and they found documentation to prove it."

It's never about how much credibility one has, just about putting it down at all costs.  The more credibility one has, the higher the reputation one hopes to acquire by putting it down.  At least that's what they always hope for.  It never works out that way though.  (See: Apple)

"At least Mike has been civil. I don't understand why you guys had to go after him like that."

Actually sharky is the first post in this blog civil?  Juvenal yes, civil no.  He brought on everything he got by starting out that way.

So Keith there were other operating systems in 82, wow I did not know????  My point was, how many had a email routing protocol for routing email outside of their environments????  Answer NONE.  There was MTP and UUCP but they were never ratified.  SendMail on UNIX was the first to use but every email product on every platform used it.  I once administered a MailWorks server on VMS and it even used SMTP.

Its SMTP the mail routing protocol, used by all email programs on all operating systems, and NOT UNIX that is outdated.  Hell many SMTP big internet SMTP gatways these days are appliances that are a stripped down version of some Linux distro that has multiple MTA's and does nothing but route email.  I would even argue with the popularity of Exchange that more email goes through Microsoft SMTP servers than anything else.

Man and I though the computers used by the early space programs just had hamsters in them on a wheel.....thanks for clearing that up!!

I think any reasonable person can agree with Paul that Windows Mobile is neither innovative, exciting or even interesting.  We can also add to that list that Windows Mobile isn't attractive, stable, easy to develop great applications in, easy to use or snappy.

I will balance that by saying that iPhone 2.0 is pretty buggy, the address book in the new update is HORRIBLY slow to load and it, anecdotal, feels like the phone drops more calls.  Apple needs to keep the focus on speed and stability here.  On the plus side, my iPhone already has more well-designed and useful applications than I've ever seen on Palm or Windows Mobile.  And jesus the games look amazing.

John

"Apple needs to keep the focus on speed and stability here. "

I think you meant "Apple needs to PUT the focus on speed and stability here".

To keep on it they'd have had to have already been on it, and if that were the case, the iPhone 2 wouldn't have the speed and stability issues that are plaguing it. (Anecdotal but when even Guy Kawasaki criticises a major Apple product in public a lot must be broken.)

"To keep on it they'd have had to have already been on it, and if that were the case, the iPhone 2 wouldn't have the speed and stability issues that are plaguing it."

To me John's wording implies that speed and stability have generally been Apple's focus, but not in this case.

Currently running Windows Mobile 6.1 on a HTC S620 Smartphone.

Can be quite slow at times and lacks functionality of my Symbian based smartphone. I do like the sliding panels on the home screen and the Windows Live integration but i think Windows Mobile still feels empty.

It needs a lot more work to keep up with apple and symbian's mobile operating systems. 18 million licenses sounds like a lot but i bet they don't work that out in solid retail purchases.

Anyways thats my 2 pennys on this topic....or my 2 cents if your American :)

"It's never about how much credibility one has, just about putting it down at all costs.  The more credibility one has, the higher the reputation one hopes to acquire by putting it down.  At least that's what they always hope for."

Looking in the mirror again, Wae?

mikegalos@msn.com  said:

Everybody (but the Unix diehards) including Microsoft and Apple have been trying to get those underpinning ripped out but...

And why could that be (assuming your premise is 100% correct). Does anyone truly trust MS enough? I'm sorry but any attempt at a "redesign" and MS is going to be there pushing their vision at the expense of everyone else. No one trusts them and with good reason.

What we have here is a failure to trust, same as MS entire brand equity which amounts to $1.50. Their entire business model is based on a lack of trust or at least that has played out over the years:

- Where did MS get the code for Media Player?

- X Box failure rates anyone?

- Abandonment of Play for Sure partner despite protestations to the contrary.

- The boondoggle/vaporware of Cario?

These are just some examples of lack of trust from MS as a company and a brand.

I also chuckle at the black and white world you all inhabit. That Apple's mistakes are of the same magnitude as Microsoft:

I trust Apple's products; are thy prefect? What is in life? Difference is that Apple is consistently driven to make their products better, rather then the outright statements of "Bug fixes don't drive apportion" as uttered by Bill Gates. Rather lame IMHO and couldn't be more systemic of Microsoft's entire culture really. Vaporware and selling the next vision while ignoring the problems of the current products is so much more convenient. Problem is for MS is that people are finally waking up to the "Matrix-like" nature that is Windows.

Mike you harp on Apple for lack of innovation (of which I disagree, but to each his own); try this one on for size. Microsoft has been in "maintenance mode" since 1995. Their entire business is now predicated on protecting the Office and Windows monopoly at any and all costs and not innovating as a result. Almost everything they have launched in the last 5 years has nothing to do with Windows. So how is this different from Apple which you so deride based on your view of Apple's lack of innovation?

"Difference is that Apple is consistently driven to make their products better, rather then the outright statements of "Bug fixes don't drive apportion" as uttered by Bill Gates."

OK. You like Apple and think Microsoft's products suck.  Fair enough. That's your opinion. I personally feel Microsoft doesn't get enough credit, but, again, that's my opinion.

Why do you feel the need to defend Apple on a Windows focused site, though? Yes, Paul mentions apple on numerous occasions in his posts, but that, according to him, is from a Windows user's perspective. Obviously a lot of you who hate Microsoft and its products will never get it. Why, then do you bother? Do you really believe you can make him change his opinions by attacking everything he says? And this, frankly, is an honest question.

"I will balance that by saying that iPhone 2.0 is pretty buggy, the address book in the new update is HORRIBLY slow to load and it, anecdotal, feels like the phone drops more calls.  Apple needs to keep the focus on speed and stability here."

Don't worry.  They'll fix that version 3.  Then they'll make a couple more "major" revisions and update the UI with a couple new effects while charging full price for each upgrade.  Then they'll release a disasterous upgrade 3 years after that that's way off-schedule.  And finally they'll be racing to come out with a new "major" version, again, that's designed to provide primarily "performance and reliability improvements" from the previous version with no new features, and with the same name as the previous release, only with the word "Snow" prefixed to it, thereby justifying the cost of charging customers full price again.

;)

"Looking in the mirror again, Wae?"

@mike:  see what I mean?

@losta:  your reputation amounted to zero.  with that comment, it's nearly 20x that.

"Wow. almost 10 minutes so far and nobody from the iCabal has commented on how Paul's negative comments on Windows Mobile are somehow an unfair attack on Apple."

But in less than 10 minutes we got someone mentioning "iCabal".

My iPhone gets 3G everywhere I have been driving in South Jersey and Philly although it went Edge for a minute, and has not dropped a call as well. The address book, clender and email work in an instant with Exchange. My buddies Blackberry is set up for email Exchange email, but won't sync with his calender. My buddy right beside me has the new Moto q [2 or Pro or whayever], but has no service  and no WiFi in our reading room, probably due to all the lead as no phones have service here, but there is WiFi throughout the hospital. Either way, he has no WiFi so cannot get his Exchange emails. Another guy here has some type of Blackberry that he just purchased to replace his Treo, but he hates it and claims the screen is too small, so he's using his old Treo 650 again. He has Verizon, so can he get the HTC, or something newer soon from Verizon?

PS , I still have not activated iTunes app on my Mac as the iPhone was activated inthe Apple store, buty I guess that I must if I want updates or music. Bummer.

LOL @ Mike.

You baited a flame war with your very first comment.

Bravo sir. Bravo.

@ johnpapola said:

I think any reasonable person can agree with Paul that Windows Mobile is neither innovative, exciting or even interesting."

#1 it's very rude to assume an opinion is one that only "reasonable person(s)" would have. When it comes to something like this "reasonable" people can share totally different takes on the same thing.

"Windows Mobile is neither innovative, exciting or even interesting."

Again what are you basing this on?

What is the "innovation" you're thinking about?

"Exciting" is really subjective.  Along with "interesting", you've got to define this stuff better so that people can see where you're coming from.

 "We can also add to that list that Windows Mobile isn't attractive, stable,"

I find it attractive. I really do like the default green them for WM6. It's also plenty stable.

I keep all of my apps on a SD card so they dont clutter up the device and cause stability problems.

" easy to develop great applications in, easy to use or snappy."

I don't know about the developing part, but I find it very easy to use and it is very fast, again because I don't load everything onto the main device.

"I find it attractive. I really do like the default green them for WM6. It's also plenty stable. "

I don't have many 3rd party apps on my Moto Q, except for the DST update, OneNote mobile, and Opera Mobile.  The only thing that's not stable on the thing is Opera Mobile.  It crashes frequently.  AND it's supposed to be the "stable" release (8.whatever it is).  I'm hoping that's not what it's like on the Touch Diamond, but I'm pretty confident that HTC wouldn't put up with that kind of ***.  It uses a custom version of 9.5 anyway, not the 8.crap that I currently have.

shark47 said:

OK. You like Apple and think Microsoft's products suck.  Fair enough. That's your opinion. I personally feel Microsoft doesn't get enough credit, but, again, that's my opinion.

Why do you feel the need to defend Apple on a Windows focused site, though? Yes, Paul mentions apple on numerous occasions in his posts, but that, according to him, is from a Windows user's perspective. Obviously a lot of you who hate Microsoft and its products will never get it. Why, then do you bother? Do you really believe you can make him change his opinions by attacking everything he says? And this, frankly, is an honest question.

Actually I have no issues with Office per say, it does the job and like Word for the most part, Exchange is another matter all together. I work on PCs, Macs and different distros of liniux from time to time. So for the most part I transition between OSes without much trouble.

Hate is a strong word. I wouldn't say I hate MS (or its products) its simply sad that so many feel they are to be admired as a company because they are so successful. As  a paragon of a great business, when in fact they represent the very evils of capatlism without restraint.  Meanwhile if you were one of the companies left in their wake you would have a different story.

As to why am here. that as a fairly presumptions statement to make. Not that I have to answer, but I will: Paul is fairly well thought out when it comes to something other then the Wii or Apple. He has concise points about them, which while I disagree with sometimes are not laden with the borderline pathological obsession that he exhibits when Apple is mentioned. Simply all too often he resorts to the hyperbolic and says "See Apple is just as evil as MS".. whoihc is laughable. Yes both are companies but Apple isn't even close to the shenanigans that MS has perpitrated on teh computing world.

Mike:

"Tero,

If 18 Million plus per year licenses for the core of a consumer product is getting severely beaten, what do you call a consumer product company that didn't sell 1/3rd that many despite full channel control?

I know, you'll call it a breakthrough success. :-)"

No, I don't. And I wasn't referring to Apple. Apple is not beating MS in the mobility space--at least, not yet. It may in the future.

re: dgrisman

I think you have a valid point there that MS does not seem too serious about the whole Windows Mobile affair. I wonder, why, though. The market is getting big. And it grows some 20-30% a year or more. Smartphone shipments grow faster than the rest of the mobile phone market. A lot of money is being made in there.

A major part of the problem seems to be that MS's hardware partners don't seem able to compete against RIM, Nokia, Apple. That's what the numbers tell. Should MS try and help them? And how? I don't know.

Dude: "As to why am here."

No. I didn't ask you why you were on this site. That's not for me to say. That's totally upto you (and/or Paul). I meant that you have to understand that these reviews, opinions are written from the perspective of a Windows user. You say Paul is obsessed with Apple. I would agree. In fact, the whole tech world is obsessed with Jobs and Apple. (It reminds me of the "Obama Mia" skit on Jay Leno.)

"Paul is fairly well thought out when it comes to something other then the Wii or Apple."

So, instead of airing his own opinion, he should simply go with the flow and like each one of Apple's products because a majority of the tech media does? Is that what you're saying? Paul has been highly critical of several Microsoft ventures in the past. Somehow, people ignore that and when he critizes something that comes out of Cupertino, he is labeled a Windows apologist, etc. Yes, he does go overboard with his criticism at times, but that's not just restricted to Apple.

No. I have no issue with someone being objective and calling things as they are, When someone claims to be objective (as in I'm a fan of _____) and they aren't.... one has to wonder.

Its a matter of a inordinate amount of bias. And no, its not so it equals out in the press, because the crap that MS pulls is in no way shape or form the same as Apple, its not even in the ballpark, let alone sport. If I want straight anti-apple screed I can easily go to C-Net, Engadget or Digg.

Refer to my previous statements about Fox News and this site, the parallels are eerie.

All too often I get the feeling that Paul is trying to be the Daring Fireball of the Windows world. Sadly when it comes to Apple it doesn't come off that way.

I also don't buy for one minute that Paul is EQUALLY CRITICAL of MS as he is of Apple. Example: Once the mobileMe issue started to flair up I could literally see the post coming and there low and behold Paul did not let the world down. Literally I could have wrote his post word for word as I knew exactly what would be posted. Its sad its almost laughable at this stage of the game.

Should Apple have been called out? Sure. Did it need the castigating, snarky, iCabal labeling, hyperbolic commentary? Did it  serve any purpose? Not so much. I'm still waiting for Paul to go off with both barrels with the fervor that he does on Apple (or the Wii for that matter) with Microsoft as the target. Because  if he has, I haven't seen it.

The zest with which Paul writes about Apple is almost unbelievable. However, Microsoft is what he loves; Apple is only what he loves to write about. There's a substantial difference there.

I remember the first review by Paul I read, about Windows Me. It was the greatest OS ever released. Every consumer *had* to upgrade to it from 98 SE, no matter how much it blue-screened or how little there was new in it. I thought the guy was nuts. Then I realised he just loved the company that made it. Had the OS been released by, say, Apple, the review would have sent it down the toilet faster you can spell Apple. Of course, later Paul started making fun of these pre-XP consumer Windows versions, just like MS did on its advertisement, admitting they had not been secure or stable. Now he thinks Vista is cool. I wonder what he says of it in a few years' time. Maybe he again discovers that it actually sucked... but that the point just wasn't important to say at the time.

"All too often I get the feeling that Paul is trying to be the Daring Fireball of the Windows world."

I remember when Paul used to compliment Gruber on occasion, at least until Gruber made him his "Jacka$$ of the Week". Then the gloves were off, I guess.

Is Paul the Gruber of the Windows world? Well, he's as long-winded as Gruber, but that's where the similarity ends. Truly, they're yin and yang: Gruber's a rabid Macophile and Yankees fan; Paul's a WinJihadist and Red Sox fan. Gruber occasionally says good things about Microsoft and related products and sometimes trashes Apple; the reverse is true of Paul. Gruber sells T-shirts, Thurrott sells his old books.

They need each other. Fire and rain. Heaven and Hell. Steve Jobs and Steve Ballmer. It's fun watching them trade barbs with each other. The Internets wouldn't be the same without them.

Paul's not the "Daring Fireball" of the Windows world. He's more like the Rush Limbaugh of the Windows world (with all the good and bad baggage that comes with the attachment to that name).

I think Paul is definitely more opinionated than people like Ed Bott, Mary Jo Foley, and Ina Fried. You guys only seem to notice it when he is critical of Apple. Go and read some of his recent comments about Windows Mobile, XBox 360, and even Bill Gates and you might see what I'm talking about ... maybe not.

I remember when i had something called a pocketpc. Fun times... I just wish they would actually update the os. it still looks reminiscent of windows 95 X...x

@Waethorn,

"Then they'll make a couple more "major" revisions and update the UI with a couple new effects while charging full price for each upgrade."

Oops... except that iPhone 2.0 was a free update.  But hey, reality has never gotten in the way of your anti-apple nonsense.

@shark

Right on...

Paul often calls out Microsoft and gives his opinions on competing products like Apple's.  He has said more than once that he believes that the iPhone will be a major computing platform and he loves it. So why all the arguing? I hope the people who comment on Paul's blog are a small(vocal) percentage that read his site.  I think he pretty fair and tells his own ideas about products.  And iCabal, jeez people, every time you respond to a blog post with that word in it you prove that it does exist(don't be so sensitive).  Its not a big deal.  

And as for MobileMe, Apple deserves all and any bad reviews(Until its fully fixed).  They tout some product like its the next best thing since sliced bread and then it doesn't work... hmm yeah they deserve every bit of criticism until MobileMe meets all the promises.

(end rant)

Windows Mobile is definitely in need of a serious revision if the platform is to be taken more seriously.  I've seen and played with a few Windows Mobile phones and I was not impressed. Its an okay platform but to business-like. Perhaps like Paul's suggestion of one format for business, one for commercial use, and one thats a superset of both. This way consumer models are bogged down with non-essential applications and service that consumers don't use. Also, the business version should be refined to include things that could be useful. The superset should be in the mold of a much smaller Vista Ultimate edition.

As for the ongoing debate about Paul's bias, I'd point out the article on the Visa review titled, "Windows Vista Review Part 7: Where Windows Vista Fails."

www.winsupersite.com/.../winvista_07.asp

Here Paul took Microsoft to the woodshed. It was a scathing damnation of Vista shortfalls and how the corporation had let the consumers down. Even Microsoft took notice of this review.

Also Paul's article on the Windows Mobile on the Motorolla Q was pretty straightforward.

www.winsupersite.com/.../wm_q.asp

All I can expect out of anyone in this life is to be fair but biased. We are all biased to one degree or another. Even if you dislike or don't particularly like a corporation, product, or person; you should be able to step back and look at something objectively. I'd say that Paul does the job pretty well, in my opinion. However, it does seem like if you utter anything mentioning the words A--P-P-L-E, and their's a mob ready to read you the riot act. Objectivity is also subjective to people's beliefs, education, and experiences. I will not damn the man for review Apple products that are used in Windows. Its part of the Windows user experience and he has the right to cover it. I would make this one of my favorite sites, if Paul didn't review those Apple products on Windows that I might potentially use.

If you don't like his attitude, thats fine. But thats a part of the man, you can just ignore it. Do I go off on these Apple leaning writers? No. I can't change their minds. No more than anyone can change my mind on what I use for my own computing purposes. I do try to base my opinions in fact and from honest experiences. Thats why I've restrained myself from commenting on Mobile Me, as I have not used the service. My comments were on the perception of the service not actual use. I will refuse to comment specifically on it, till I have actually use said service.

That said, I think Paul is pretty fair. Biased? Yes. Fair, definitely. Since he is the subject of many attacks and criticisms many of which we never see, I think he's been pretty fair about the whole thing. I don't know if I could so such restraint.

Peace.

"except that iPhone 2.0 was a free update."

Ah, but 3G wasn't, but it should've been included in the box.  My aging Q has it, as does every other smartphone on the planet, and they've had it for longer than the iPhone.

I'd like to point out the fact that you've so conveniently forgotten too - Apple charged for the update on the iPod touch.  That makes 2 extraneous charges already for the touch.  That's just ridiculous.

msmobiles.com/.../7542.html

Despite claims of Microsoft that "Windows Mobile is also good for consumers", in reality Microsoft failed to appeal to consumers and this claim was not serious but just pure marketing pep-talk as facts proved it: Zune Market place for music still not integrated inside of Windows Mobile, gaming support superficial, and promised new version of Internet Explorer delayed till 2009.

Meanwhile... many telecoms around the world whose competitors have gotten the exclusive rights to sell the white-hot iPhone 3G are now GIVING AWAY iPod Touches along with their non-iphones.  Crazy.

What never seems to get mentioned when talking about mobile platforms is that the iPod touch is the same platform as the iPhone and is quite possibly beyond 10 million sold itself already.  When you take the touch and iphone together, you have a platform growing at a pretty insane pace with a superior software distribution system, superior standard hardware (John Carmack is claiming that the iPhone is nearly as powerful as the PS2) and apparently a wildly superior development environment.

So while Microsoft may be selling millions of WinMo licenses via phones to corporations who subsequently lock the phones down tight... the iphone is very much a threat.

Then again, the very fact that Microsoft is talking about their sales in relation to the iPhone IN THEIR OWN PRESS RELEASE is more than enough proof that they're are scared to death of the thing.  Seriously.  And they should be in the mobile space.

18 Million licenses?  Nice.  When Apple announces over 10 million phones sold in their first full year of sales (and despite nearly two months of being out of stock), that 18 million is going to look very much in reach.  Who want to take bets that Apple is outselling WinMo 3 years from now?

Scratch that.  Who wants to bet that OSX Touch (iPhone + iPod Touch) outsells Windows Mobile NEXT YEAR.  It may even this year.  This market isn't like the PC and Apple isn't making the mistakes they made with the Mac even if it was.  They have the superior platform and dev tools AND they're pricing it super aggressively AND retailers (the carriers) are clamoring to sell it.  It looks like game over to me.

@Waethorn,

"Ah, but 3G wasn't"

Ah but most people don't even have 3G coverage.  My first gen iPhone just sold on ebay to someone in poland for $400.

Oh... and do you care to take back your claims about Canadian iPhone demand being non-existent, given the Rogers recent statements about massive demand and commitments to buy $150 million worth of iPhones?  I'm going to bet the answer is no.  You'll ignore it.

Does Apple pay Paul to have people like John Papola advertise on his site? I don't think so.

All Things D - The official Apple fansite

@sharky,

I'm not sure I understand what that means.  It's not like I build computers for a living (Waethorn) or sell books about Vista (Paul) or provide IT support.  How am I advertising?

Dont worry about sharky Johnpapola, he went to the Mike Galos (aka Keith) school of logic...ie UNIX is the cause of all internet SPAM:)

Maybe they are the same person?

3G if you have a real need for it, and you live in a big city, is great.  The Black Jack 1's and Moto Q's my company gave out to my team would suck the battery dry in half a day of just Exchange email traffic over 3G.  Even after I got the fat battery for the Black Jack 3G would still last only a day.  I turned EDGE back on because surfing the internet on WM blows chunks and I could go most of a week with the fat battery.  3G coverage is horrible at best, the constant switching back and forth between edge and 3G is another battery killer.

I wish Apple sold a non 3G phone, that came with the cheaper media net plan (unlimited email and sms) that ATT use to offer on its edge only WM phones.

"@sharky,

I'm not sure I understand what that means.  It's not like I build computers for a living (Waethorn) or sell books about Vista (Paul) or provide IT support.  How am I advertising?"

Well, what it means is if Apple ever did an ad for the iPhone that mentioned Windows Mobile, your comment would probably be something like your comment.  I don't doubt that the iPhone is a great phone. I've used it myself and liked it. But it does have its share of problems including cracks on the back of the white iPhones.  Now, I don't use smartphones and couldn't care less if the iPhone outsold WM phones 5:1. But if Microsoft mentions the iPhone in one press release and it means they're scared  to death, what about Apple mentioning Microsoft in all of their keynotes and their ads?

"Dont worry about sharky Johnpapola, he went to the Mike Galos (aka Keith) school of logic...ie UNIX is the cause of all internet SPAM:)

Maybe they are the same person?"

Nope. I frankly have no idea whether or not UNIX has anything to do with internet spam. I don't care either way. And no, I'm not him just like you're not bonch (I hope).

"Well, what it means is if Apple ever did an ad for the iPhone that mentioned Windows Mobile, your comment would probably be something like your comment. "

Well, what it means is if Apple ever did an ad for the iPhone that mentioned Windows Mobile, IT would probably be something like your comment.

Shark,

My point is simply this: when you are the market leader, you don't compare yourself to anyone else.  Period.   And certainly not a new-comer like the iPhone.  But the reality is that Microsoft is not the market leader in mobile and despite WinMo being on version 6.1 and Microsoft pursuing mobile for nearly a decade (or more?)... the iPhone already has them in it's sights.

Now, the iPhone is far from perfect and I actually think that 2.0 is slower and buggier than 1.0 right now.  They need to fix those bugs ASAP.  But they have the superior hardware, software, distribution and developer tools.  They have the enthusiasm of developers. These aren't cheerleading statements, they're just facts.  And I really do think it's possible to see the OSX Touch platform eclipse Windows Mobile in annual sales very soon.

Hell, if Paul Thurrott of the winsupersite even thinks Windows Mobile is "horrible, just awful"... Microsoft has big trouble in mobile.  Hence this blatantly defensive press release.  They aren't very good at hiding their Apple envy.

John

"But they have the superior hardware, software, distribution and developer tools."

Wow, now there's a bunch of opinion being stated as though it were a fact..

Hardware?

Better than some, worse than others. It all depends on what criteria you care about. (no video, terrible camera, bad permanent battery, no memory cards, no expansion) Also, the lack of multiple models means no flip phones, no sliders, no phones for people who like keyboards (phone or qwerty), no phones where cameras are banned, no compact phones, no ruggedized phones, etc... All of which are available in WM.

Software?

(Assuming you mean the OS)

Better for some, worse for others. Again, depends on what you care about. (buggy radio stack, buggy overall with 2.0, security holes. lack of management interface, lack of support for other hardware form factors, lack of support for hardware not sold by Apple)

Distribution?

Well, they used to have a stranglehold on their one carrier which made the channel less powerful (something I'd agree helps almost everyone) but that seems to have changed a bit with the 2nd year licenses. We'll have to see. Also note that this is purely talking about the US. On the downside, if you don't like AT&T (or your local monopoly carrier) you have no choice which isn't a good thing. (See changes in SMS charges and ban on true 3rd party IM clients for an example)

Developer tools?

Here it's not even close to parity. The Windows Mobile platform is mature, has tools both at the low level and with the.NET Compact Framework, allows multiple languages for development, has a SQL engine, has the same developer, program manager, database developer and tester toolkits as the normal Visual Studio systems, has support of lots of 3rd party VS tools, integrates with web services, supports multitasking, has access to the full API without requiring a license where you agree to not develop apps that Apple (or AT&T) don't want you to develop, has no restrictions on distribution, has no requirement to sign a developer license to develop, has no requirement to license a device just to do testing, has no restrictions on testing, has no approval requirement or waiting list to become a developer, has no approval requirement or waiting list or app type restrictions for distribution, etc., etc., etc.

Those are facts. Not opinions. Now, if you'd do the same we could have a serious discussion and not just "I want it to be better so it must be"

John

"Microsoft pursuing mobile for nearly a decade (or more?)... "

The first commercially available Windows Mobile smartphone was the Motorola MPx200 which came out in December 2003 so your "decade (or more?)" is actually about four and a half years.

Guys, do you remember Pocket PC 2000 phones (launched April 2000) ran Windows CE 3.0 underneath. That qualifies as being in the market. When was Windows CE first launched? Also, I whole heartedly disagree that Windows Mobile is crap. There are so many useful apps, especially medical apps, that make it a true pocket PC for us docs. Jeez, you can do billing, have your hospital inpatient list DL'ed as soon as you sync in many places in the hospital. You can use the in house WIFi if it's on your phone too, but it can be a little buggy. It has several other uses too. Palm has some apps too. The PDR to look up drugs, medical journals and referrence guides for WM and Palm. PDR now has an iPhone web site which is useful, but WM has much more. I think many use something called MDATA, for Palm, and perhaps WM, but that is an inpatient app, and I am a radiologist, so I rarely admit patients to the hospital, unless for a big interventional procedure, but I just let the young guys do most of it. gettin' old sucks.

On distribution, I was talking about the AppStore.  Regarding hardware, I', talking about the fact that the iPhone is starting at a very high water mark.  As a platform, there are no junk iPhones, they're all the same powerful slate for developers to exploit.  This is an advantage for developers in the same way the optimising for  a game console is easier than for the PC.

Windows Mobile is the follow-on to Windows CE, is it not?  Didn't Windows CE 1.0 get released in 1996?  That would constitute more than a decade of development.

As for he developer tools... I'm just repeating what I read from mobile app developers all over the place.  The iPhone SDK is apparently awesome and many many developers have called it superior to working with WinMo.

I will concede that everything has strengths and weakness and Windows Mobile isn't "crap" or inferior for everyone in every market segment.  Nor is the iPhone superior on the same grounds.  But the iPhone is already a better consumer platform.

Well, I think WinMo is crap... but that's my personal opinion.  If the doc is using it to get work done... I'm not going to say it's crap for him.  That would be hack nonsense... you know... because there's no more a single market for celphones than there is a single market for PCs.

"The iPhone SDK is apparently awesome and many many developers have called it superior to working with WinMo."

Probably. But the web is full of people who worship Jobs and praise everything that comes out of Cupertino. The iPhone or OS X Touch platform is definitely cooler to develop for and apps for the iPhone definitely get more publicity on Mac fan sites like Engadget and Gizmodo.  The iPhone is definitely the "in thing" right now. It's cool to own one, but so was the Razr a couple of years ago.

I will say that a lot of people who buy iPhones do so for showing off. It's cool to take your iPhone out on a subway or in a mall. At least with the original iPhone, other than the initial excitement with the pinching etc., there was little else. Yes, you can go around showing your family pics to your friends and colleagues with the cool pinching effects for a while. They do get irritating after a while.

JP, you have not been reading my post, so my feelings are a little hurt:) Many docs on the Physicians IT council at my hospital system use WM and Palm, but mostly WM, as do the IT team. However, my point is that my wife bought me an iPhone for our 10th wedding anniversary. It replaced my Treo 650. I have not even activated iTunes yet as the iPhone was activated in the store, and I use the iPhone most for Exchange, thanks to all of your help at this site. I love it and the guys with WM are jealous. Two just bought a BB and one MotoQ2 or whatever, but my WiFi works in the hospital. They tell me that thier battery life as well as many others with WM, bites. As a radiologist, I just don't need all those apps at all. But the Safari app on the iPhone worked great to research prices and sizes when I was purchasing 7 foot steel trellises for my wife's roses. I bought 8 at Home Depot, and yep, I carried them out with one arm:), so I really like this phone. Plus, my wife's iPod USB cord charges it too, so I carry it in my brief case to have one cord at home and one available at work, just in case I forget to charge it at home. The babe at Home Depot was more impressed with the 'MD' on my credit card than the iPhone. Wow, she was babelicious! [I don't wear my wedding ring to go to hardware stores]. Now I need to go to confession for those thoughts!

Doc

John,

Answering facts with essentially statements of "I have friends who've told me it's great" really isn't an answer.

You did spread one misconception that I realy have to address before it causes more confusion.

Windows Mobile is a telephone platform built on top of the Windows CE operating system. They're different layers.

Your statement:

"Windows Mobile is the follow-on to Windows CE, is it not?  Didn't Windows CE 1.0 get released in 1996?  That would constitute more than a decade of development."

makes as little sense as my saying:

"iPhone is the follow-on to OS X, is it not?  Didn't Apple OS X get released in 1999?  That would constitute almost a decade of development."

or even more accurately since you're talking about the base platform OS...

"iPhone is the follow-on to Unix, is it not?  Didn't Unix get released in 1969?  That would constitute almost four decades of development."

See how silly that argument is when the same rules have to apply for both platforms?

I see your point Mike, but if the spirit of the discussion was to demonstatate how long that the Windows OS has been used on a mobile phone vs the Mac OS, I would say that Mac OS has been in it for 13 months, while Windows for as long as CE and WM has been used. And it shows in my point, since there are many more apps for WM, especially those industry specific such as medicine. These are not just little apps that flip coins, but robust useful, money making stuff, and they are good [WM]. Granted that the design of the iPhone was for iTunes and web surfing, which seem pretty darrn good [Flash support is still needed], even in comparison to Palm and WM, and some people say that they are better on the iPhone. But that's what it was designed to do, so the main iPhone apps better be pretty darn good, or else they blew it.

DRWAM

My point exactly.

It's fair to say WM has been around for 4 1/2 years and iPhone for 13 months.

It's fair to say WM is built on a 12 year old OS and iPhone is built on either an 8 1/2 year old OS implementation or 39 year old OS.

What's not fair is to pick and choose different rules for the two platforms. (Saying iPhone is as new as its newest component but Windows Mobile is as old as its oldest, for example, is either intentionally deceptive or shows a lack of understanding of the subject)

DRWAM,

Now, if your point was that Windows Mobile has an advantage of maintaining backward compatibility with their earlier PDA platform (somewhat true with WM Pro, not so much with WM Standard due to the different UI) then I'd say that's true.

Microsoft and Apple both did PDA platforms and Mobile Phone platforms. Windows mobile has maintained some degree of compatibility with Pocket PC while offering a smooth migration path. iPhone has no compatibility with Newton and the developers who did Newton apps had their investments totally wiped out by Apple abandoning the platform and offering no path for migration.

Of course, the same could also be said about Apple's lack of a migration path for iPod apps (what few there are) but Apple has a history of making life unnecessarily difficult for their developer partners.

I just don't understand what people claim is wrong or bad about WM. I understand that from my perspective, a Palm user, that I clearly see WM as superior in form and function. But what's so bad about it [WM]? I was very envious when watching my friend demo his Ipaq. I tried to order a WM phone from Verizon a few years ago, but it was only a web offer and only for new accounts. A phone call to the company and an email to what supposedly was a VP of something told me that I could only get it by ordering on line, for a new account, which was strike one for Verizon. But it had so many useful apps including anm Office suite, which prompted me to get Documents to Go. Please, somebody here tell me what makes it bad? It seems to do more stuff than my iPhone, or at least stuff that I use. The nice thing about the iPhone is that it's much easier to use it with my Mac, which is my main home computer. Also, screen size and Exchange was very important to me. Now I will be going to get the Benz washed and waxed while surfing on the iPhone:)

Doc

Oh, and to bring it to users rather than just the ISV community, it could also be said that users who invested in Newton and Newton applications had their investments totally wiped out by Apple abandoning the platform and offering no path for migration.

@Doc,

HAHA, that post was great.   Babelicious indeed.  Bless me father. Ha.  Yeah, I didn't read your post fully.  Sorry.  I'm glad the iPhone is working for you.  Have you used the Epocrates app yet?  Is it good/useful?  As a long-time palm user, I'm blown away by this first generation of apps.

Here's a few you need to get:

1Password (syncs with the mac amazingly)

Evernote (brilliant notes app with sync to the desktop app)

eBay Mobile (free and great)

FileMagnet (easy way to put docs on the iPhone)

Midomi

NetNewsWire

Remote (amazing)

Save Benjis

Zenbe Lists (really really great)

Are there any you've found that you really love?

@Mike,

As for Windows Mobile and it's CE lineage... let's be clear here.  From a development platform, OS underpinnings and APIs point of view... WinMo IS the successor to WinCE, right?  Sure, WinMo for phones added whatever telephony support and UI tweaks for the form factor... but the underlying architecture is in the WinCE lineage.

So yeah, iPhone is a follow-on to OSX.  That's why Cocoa mac devs are able to move so quickly to write great apps for the iPhone.  1Password just came out with their iPhone app and it is simply stunning compared to my previous favorite: Passwords Plus for Palm.  John Carmack is in LOVE with the iPhone.

If you want to tout the "maturity" of the Windows Mobile environment, you can't also disassociate it with it's upbringing as WindowsCE.  And that long market gestation makes Apple's amazing strides in this market over the past 13 months that much more amazing, which was the point.  Face it, on many fronts and especially interface and usability, Apple's 1.0 has completely leapt ahead of Windows Mobile at 6.1.  Utterly.  And, as with the mac, Apple's very strong app design leadership has lead to very high quality third party apps with a unified experience that draws directly from the work Apple is doing in their apps.  

MS is running scared of the iPhone (and probably Android once it exits Vaporware status).  That's why the press release is so reactionary to the iPhone.  That's why a reasonable person would look at 18 million licenses sold and say "man, that's not that far off from where Apple's going to be, and they've only been at this for a year".  Microsoft has been trying to crack this market for MUCH longer than Apple and Apple is already on their way to achieving 50% of Microsoft's marketshare in their first year and half.  That's my point and it's impressive.  

"Apple has a history of making life unnecessarily difficult for their developer partners."

Microsoft has done their share of making "partners" miserable.  Like mira being killed.  Or playsforsure being depreciated.  Or WinFS being dropped.  Etc. Etc.

As for me repeating what I read from developers like Carmack... yeah, well, that's because I'm not a developer, I'm a user.  But we do have this ability to process knowledge outside our area of expertise as human beings.

As for the Newton developers... um, dusting off the history books a bit, aren't we?  Come on now.  Is there anyone alive right now on this earth that is pissed off about the iPhone not being compatible with the Newton?  Give me a break.

DRWAM

Apple's traditional marketing model has been to produce a very narrow range of products optimized to a niche "social leader" consumer and then tell you that if you need something they don't offer, there's something vaguely uncool about you and you should either become who they targeted or desperately pretend that you are.

That's partly why their user base is so defensive, they're afraid that if they admit a flaw then they're obviously not cool enough to "get" the iPhone and the thought of being uncool is just too much to bear. I had a coworker who sent a computer back for repair 3 times in one year and couldn't admit that Apple might have done something wrong because she had her self-esteem tied to being an "Apple user".

So iPhone examples:

Apple decided that the only cool phone design was a candy-bar form factor with soft keys, therefore:

Want a flip phone? Not cool

Want a slider? Not cool

Want a dial pad? Not cool

Want a keyboard? Not cool

Want hardware buttons to use your iPod functions while you run? Get over yourself.

Work in a place where phones with camera are banned? Maybe you should get a new job.

Need a ruggedized phone? Dude, are you like a construction worker or farmer or something? Get a real job in an office in a city.

Need 3G (in 2007)? Nobody needs 3G, EDGE is the best balance and you can use WiFi because you obviously live in a city with free WiFi pretty much everywhere

Need 3G (in 2008)? How could anybody live with EDGE?

Need GPS (in 2007)? Location by cell tower is all you need.

Need GPS (in 2008)? How can you expect to know where your friends are if you don't all have GPS enabled apps talking to each other?

Need better battery life? Turn off 3G and GPS

It's amusing to watch but don't take it that seriously.

To be fair, the browser in iPhone IS much better than Pocket IE (but, of course, there are 3rd party browsers available for WM)

John,

OK. Once again. Slowly

Windows CE is an operating system

Windows Mobile is a phone platform built on top of the Windows CE operating system

It's exactly parallel to

Unix is an operating system

iPhone is a phone platform built on top of the Apple OS X version of the Unix operating system

Saying Windows Mobile is the followup to Windows CE is as confused as saying iPhone is the followup to Unix

Now. Can we try it again? This time actually reading and thinking?

(Oh, and Newton was still in production and had new models more recently than the first Windows CE devices you were discussing so if Newton is dusting off the history books then what is discussion WIndows CE 1 devices?)

"Now. Can we try it again? This time actually reading and thinking?"

Wow. I though I was a condescending little snit, but you take the cake, "MikeGalos". I hand my crown (or tiara, if you like) to you.

John,

Maybe this will help you

The navigator in your car may be running Windows CE. It is not a phone.

The robot that built your car may be running Windows CE. It is not a phone.

The gas pump where you fill up your car may be running Windows CE. It is not a phone.

The ATM where you get cash may be running Windows CE. It is not a phone.

The cash register at the store you shop at may be running Windows CE. It is not a phone.

The juke box in the bar you go to after work may be running Windows CE. It is not a phone.

The point of sale handheld where you bought your iPhone may be running Windows CE. It is not a phone.

Get it?

lotsamystuff

Don't take it personally, I'm sure you can still be a condescending little snit. We all have faith in you.

"The navigator in your car may be running Windows CE...The robot that built your car may be running Windows CE...The gas pump where you fill up your car may be running Windows CE...The ATM where you get cash may be running Windows CE...The cash register at the store you shop at may be running Windows CE...The juke box in the bar you go to after work may be running Windows CE...The point of sale handheld where you bought your iPhone may be running Windows CE."

Thanks for the explanation of WHY NOTHING WORKS.

@lotsamystuff

See, you were able to get back to condescending little snit just that quickly... :-)

Thanks John, I'll look at some of them.

Pingback from  Hot Iphone 4 You  » Blog Archive   » re: Windows Mobile update

@Mike,

"Now. Can we try it again? This time actually reading and thinking?"

Wow, dude, chill out.  I'm not sure why you feel the need to attack my intelligence.  Way to strain the discussion for no good reason.  But whatever.  First, let me address your half-right/half-delusional rant about Apple's marketing model.

You're right that Apple targets their hardware, often excluding many option, and in so doing limits it's appeal for many people.  But the group they're targeting is 80 to 90% of the profitable consumer base.  Not a tiny niche by any stretch.  They aren't going after the no-margin junk market, so if you want a $599 laptop, you're not getting an Apple (and not making the company you ultimate buy from much money either).

When you drift off into the "Apple says your not cool if they don't offer what you want" bizarro world.. you detach from reality.  Apple doesn't do that and I doubt you can build this argument on any actual examples.  Apple makes no claims about it's users or it's competitors users.  The do attack their competitors products... but that isn't the same thing and it's totally fair game.  Apple-bashers trying to pin this "Apple bashes Windows users" nonsense on them are just grasping at straws.

What Apple does brilliantly is market their limited selection of cool products in a very cool way.  They say nothing of what they're not, except when there is a reason to.  For example, Jobs talked about the limitations of "cheap plastic keyboards" on the iPhone's qwerty competitors.  That doesn't tell people "you aren't cool if you use a blackberry".  Thats simply articulating their design decision.  Most of those keyboards are cheap, hard to use junk.  Apple not offering you what you want doesn't say anything about you.  It just says they don't offer what you want or need. Period. That you are somehow interpreting that as a personal attack is frankly bizarre.

Seriously, are you saying that Apple leaving out 3G was because they thought it wasn't cool?  Are the great majority of Americans that lack 3G coverage and therefore have no use for a 3G phone uncool?

When I worked at Nickelodeon, we had a saying.  Never say something is fun or cool.  You have to show the fun.  Be cool.  Apple doesn't say anything about cool.  Apple is cool.  Their ads are funny and smart, which is cool.  Their design is amazing, which is cool.  Their stores are slick and the staff is helpful... which is cool.   Does that mean that you aren't cool because you don't use Apple products?  No.  You may be uncool for completed unrelated reasons  (that was a joke)

Honestly though, I'm really not sure why so many Windows partisan nerds so closely tie their self image to their computer that they get their panties in a twist over Apple's image.   It's just such an insane waste of energy and just smells like the dorks in High School ranting about the popular kids and how much they suck and life isn't fair.  I should know.  I was one of the dorks.

This post of yours can only be interpreted as a profile in Apple envy.  It's predicated on the idea that Apple is cool and how dare the cool kids not offer you what you want?  How dare they not leave room at their cool table for the rest of us?  Microsoft is dominant in computing.  Apple is cool.  That's just reality.

Now, regarding Windows Mobile...

I see your point but you clearly don't get mine.  Windows Mobile is a phone-specific subset of Windows CE which is a codebase in use in all kinds of vertical markets.  Great.  Who cares?  So their phone effort is newer than CE's origins.  Does this mean that Windows Mobile uses different dev tools?  Is it less mature that it's decade long lineage?  Again, you're the one missing the point here.  I was simply saying that for all Microsoft's might, it's desktop monopoly, it's powerful server back-end with Exchange, and it's multi-year headstart (WinMo IS at version 6.1) Apple is still poised to sell more than half as many iPhones in their first full year on the market with just one model (no flip, no qwerty, etc) as Microsoft sold in total for all WinMo licenses to all the various manufacturers.  That is amazing.

I also find it VERY convenient that you are willing to segment the Windows CE market into it's various vertical niches... but not the Windows desktop market.  You're right that CE is in a ton of utterly unrelated products from phones to gas tanks.  Does the use of CE in my Garmin have an impact on it's use in a cash register?  Nope.  Does the use of Windows in specific hospital computers have anything to do with it's use in the average home?  Obviously not.  You are able to comprehend this for CE... and yet seem to deny it with an acute passion for Windows and the idiocy of worldwide overall marketshare.

So, the question is... are you willing to put your own thinking to good use?

Oh... and as of today, the Shorthills mall Apple store had a line-out the door for iPhones, gets solid stock in every day... and sells out every day.  This is insane.  I think we're all going to be blown away by the numbers come Macworld in January.  Clearly the combination of the lower price, the 3G, the "2.0 effect" of not being first gen, and the lead time people with contracts have now had to let them expire... is culminating in a tidal wave of demand.  Crazy.  All they need now is a slide-out keyboard model and availability on Verizon and Sprint and it's game over.

"Honestly though, I'm really not sure why so many Windows partisan nerds so closely tie their self image to their computer that they get their panties in a twist over Apple's image."

And I don't see the reason for the "cool" Mac owners to come to an "uncool" Windows site to prove to the Windows users how cool Apple is. :-)

John

Excellent job of echoing Apple's explanations of why every product but theirs is uncool while saying that isn't their marketing approach.

"cheap, plastic keyboards"? um, my phone's keyboard is metal. (And the iPhone buttons went to cheap plastic as I recall). 80-90% of the market? You really think less than 20% have a need for a phone with no camera or a ruggedized phone or a keyboard or any combination of the above? I'm guessing that you made that number up out of thin air and have nothing to back it up. Cite your source or retract.

Windows Mobile is at 6.1 but it isn't the 6th major version (in the same way that Word for Windows 6 was the 3rd version - confusing so do the homework first before you just look foolish. At least you didn't say Smartphone 2003 was the 2,003rd version.)

The point of showing the other uses of Windows CE was to drive home the point that CE is NOT a platform for phones. It's an OS just like Unix. Again, read the posts.

As for Windows users tying their identities to the product, um, not even close. Microsoft has built their marketing (for better or worse) on features and benefits. Apple has built theirs on "buy our product and you'll be cool/sexy/a winner" in the same way as soap and clothing and sodas are sold. Or, at a minimum of "buy our product and people won't know you are uncool/unsexy/a loser".

That's the reality of the marketing campaigns. The Apple model may work better. Fear sells. Knowledge less so.

John Sculley did come from Pepsi Marketing and Jobs hand picked him way back when. Apparently Jobs learned more about "selling sugar water" than Sculley learned about "changing the world". That social stigma absolution works as an advertising them is pathetic but it is a reality of our culture and Apple uses it to the hilt. (or, feel free to point out the "features and benefits" in Apple's mass market ads. I must have missed them in the social put-downs and oh-so-fashionable dancing women's silhouettes. Oh, perhaps white strings coming out your ears is a benefit?)

As to the dev platform, let's compare:

You said that everyone knows that iPhone is a better dev platform

I posted a bunch of reasons why it isn't

You said "well, I don't know but I was told it was" (along with no reasons)

I said again, facts versus someone telling you

You replied that it was really that you read a PR release from a CEO who's working on getting press for his products

If you don't know anything about a subject, don't tell people who do know that you have the answer and they don't. It just looks pathetic and undermines the valid points you've made in other threads.

Seriously, though, the only reason some of you comment here is to prove how cool Apple is. Why? Does it really matter so much to you that a bunch of  "obviously uncool" PC users don't care so much for a Mac? I've seen Audi owners and BMW owners fighting about which car is cooler, but not once have I seen an Audi owner arguing with a Honda owner. Personally, I think Audi's are cooler, but I still drive a Honda Civic because it serves my needs. One of the most common cars in the country and obviously not the coolest one. But, I've never had an Audi owner come and boast to me about how cool their car is. I don't think they feel the need to.

Subzero-

You bring up some good points which I agree with to a point. Ths basic point where I diverge from you is this: I'm not trying to convince you (or anyone) that they have to use the same computer that I do. what I'm tired of is the outright lies I hear from EVERY guy in the IT department regarding Macs when they are not even close.

et al-

Its like trying to convince Mike of anything, according to him UNIX is the reason why there is SPAM, Apple hasn't developed anything new in decades and Microsoft is the sole source of innovation in computing... Basically he is bordering on Waethorn like behavior, simply more polite.

I'm cool with that I guess, but it serves no purpose to engage in such a dialogue when their comments are framed with "look, I throw out these "facts" and my argument is suddenly correct". I have neither the time and inclination to listen to anyone that comments from a point that they now everything and their version of events is the right one. Quite possibly one's versions of events isn't the right one? I won't say that MS hasn't innovated in some areas but ist funny to see that a company with a minuscule market share (which the pro windows crowd loves to crow about) is making gobs of cash quarter after quarter and then the "mental gymnastics" that ensue to explain away their success.

queue inane commentary.

Guys,

I'm not saying anything about you or Windows users in general.  I'm simply saying that neither is Apple.  I don't understand why on one hand, many of you point to Apple's tiny marketshare and trumpet their irrelevance, and on the other hand the same group of you seem quite obsessed with condemning their products and marketing and complaining that they "leave you out" in terms of features or messaging.  Sharky, you can wish away other points of view all day long.  My question back is, why does Paul spend so much time on Apple?  Huh?  Why?  I come here because I like the debate.  I like hearing what the intelligent and respectful among you think.  Mike's a smart guy, if unreasonably biased.

Mike, you've provided no examples of Apple stigmatizing users who don't buy their products (and no, the Mac vs. PC ads don't).  Also, am I missing where you explained how WinMo is superior for development?  I think I must have, because all I see here is a ton of explanation why Windows CE prior to the smartphone edition does count as part of Windows Mobile's development legacy.  I see nothing regarding tangible advantages (probably because you don't have experience with the iPhone SDK enough to compare).

Hey, whatever man.  Enjoy your Windows world.  Just look in the mirror and ask why the 4% guy seems to get under your skin so much (and Paul's).

"My question back is, why does Paul spend so much time on Apple?  Huh?  Why?  I come here because I like the debate.  I like hearing what the intelligent and respectful among you think.  Mike's a smart guy, if unreasonably biased."

Hey, I never said Apple was irrelevant to this Windows site. I asked you why you find it necessary to prove to everyone how cool Apple was. Apple is a good company that makes reasonably good and "cool" products, which do appeal to a lot of people and many of which are relevant to Windows users.

I have friends who actually have no problems with their PCs but want to switch to Macs simply because they're cooler. Now, I don't try to stop them. I couldn't care less. But that's the image Apple is trying to portray - "you're either with us or you're uncool". I prefer to stay uncool.

By the way, do you really think Mike's the only one who's biased here?  

I have friends who actually have no problems with their PCs but want to switch to Macs simply because they're cooler. Now, I don't try to stop them. I couldn't care less. But that's the image Apple is trying to portray - "you're either with us or you're uncool". I prefer to stay uncool.

Thats what Apple ads or saying? Or is that how you perceive them? The ads actually  let "PC" do the talking which is brilliant.

"Thats what Apple ads or saying? Or is that how you perceive them? The ads actually  let "PC" do the talking which is brilliant."

The ads are not quite as subtle as you think they are. They are pretty explicit.  Actually, more explicit than some of the political attack ads on TV.

"Hey, whatever man.  Enjoy your Windows world.  Just look in the mirror and ask why the 4% guy seems to get under your skin so much (and Paul's)."

Because you 4% guys, whenever you find a messageboard to land on, act like complete jackasses.

You either try to tell everyone how product A that competes with Apple products either sucks, is crap, or just isnt as cool as the product from Apple.

You attack almost everyone as copying or stealing everything from Apple.

You smear people that say anything criticle of Apple.

You appear on fourms that are devoted to non-Apple products to run continious sales pitches for Apple goods.

You jump on any positive news about a non-Apple company to either try to "debunk" it or to try to work it as a good thing for Apple and not for that other company.

*You then will lie and pretend that Apple users dont do this and that it's just mean old PC users attacking an innocent Apple user.

Because everyone knows that Windows users never to do the same thing...

"My question back is, why does Paul spend so much time on Apple? "

I ask why not?  He uses Apple products, spends a lot of his OWN money to purchase them, so I think he is just as qualified as anyone else to make his opinions known.  It just happens to be that he is a columnist, and he is on the "dark side" if you will, but is his opinion suddenly null just because of this?

Of course, watch this video, which is quite amusing and I think he nails it:  www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbLeFNjYeTs

And likewise, using this same logic, how is it that you are qualified to speak about MS and Windows?  You no longer use their products to any meaningful extent, yet you have very long winded opinions about them.  I don't subscribe to the notion that only those in ones own coterie can speak about it.

I ask the perennial question yet again.  If market share doesn't matter (and yes, I know we aren't talking about that here), and if the Mac community is thriving, as it is, and Apple is doing great, why read and try to counter things that a "partisan hack" (your words, not mine) is saying?

shark47 said:

"Thats what Apple ads or saying? Or is that how you perceive them? The ads actually  let "PC" do the talking which is brilliant."

The ads are not quite as subtle as you think they are. They are pretty explicit.  Actually, more explicit than some of the political attack ads on TV.

What political ads are you watching then?

Dipsh t Admin said:

And likewise, using this same logic, how is it that you are qualified to speak about MS and Windows?  You no longer use their products to any meaningful extent, yet you have very long winded opinions about them.  I don't subscribe to the notion that only those in ones own coterie can speak about it.

Ahh but what about those that do you use both/ Due to its ubiquity most Mac users encounter Windows daily, the converse is not necessarily true. But boy a boatload of Windows user sure do feel qualified  to comment on OSX based on uh.... TV ads implying (their words not mine) they are dumb.

Dipsh t Admin said:

I ask the perennial question yet again.  If market share doesn't matter (and yes, I know we aren't talking about that here), and if the Mac community is thriving, as it is, and Apple is doing great, why read and try to counter things that a "partisan hack" (your words, not mine) is saying?

Of course the perennial flip side to that is why then does the Anti-Apple crowd expend so much vitriol to expose  Apple and how flawed it is? If the Mac community is so small as to not matter... then why does it? It cuts both ways Dip.

"I've seen Audi owners and BMW owners fighting about which car is cooler, but not once have I seen an Audi owner arguing with a Honda owner. Personally, I think Audi's are cooler, but I still drive a Honda Civic because it serves my needs. One of the most common cars in the country and obviously not the coolest one. But, I've never had an Audi owner come and boast to me about how cool their car is. I don't think they feel the need to."

Dude, you've never seen a Nikon or Canon partisan go at it.

Those people make the Mac/PC debate look tame by comparison. Understand that a pro photographer will invest many thousands in camera bodies and lenses of his/her choice, and it can get ugly real fast. I know Nikon owners who wouldn't pi$$ on a Canon to put it out if it were on fire, and vice-versa.

And then there are the rabid Leica owners, who are like the Linux users of the camera world.

These kinds of discussions aren't limited to computer technology, although I can understand why you might think they are.

Master3:

You are correct!!!

Lostamystuff: You come from a incorrect assumption. I am fully aware how partisan things can be: evidence Xbox users against well anything that isn't Xbox...

lotsa

"I know Nikon owners who wouldn't pi$$ on a Canon to put it out if it were on fire..."

Well, what would be the point? It's not like most Canon's have the weatherproofing to survive being pi$$ed on anyway so it isn't worth the bother...

:-)

Dude

Nice example of how "they let PC speak" is really putting words in your competitor's mouth to present a strawman rather than having an honest discussion...

You said about me:

"Its like trying to convince Mike of anything, according to him ..."

"UNIX is the reason why there is SPAM, ..."

Actually, I said that protocols that originated in Unix and that Unix users insist can't be removed are the reason why Spam still exists.

"Apple hasn't developed anything new in decades..."

Actually, I said that Apple has been stagnant in the operating system market and hasn't fulfilled the role of innovative small competitor that drives innovation in the market and forces innovation in the dominent player who could otherwise rest on their laurels.

"and Microsoft is the sole source of innovation in computing... "

Actually, I said that Microsoft innovates in operating systems much more than they have to for a company with their market share and lack of innovative competitors breathing down their neck. That they do is, frankly, an amazing gift to the industry that's deserving of praise.

But, putting words in someones mouth is so much easier than actually answering them. Hence Apple's words in PC's mouth.

Mike its called drawing conclusions which you are so want to do (see point #2 below).

1) So the what is holding everybody back then?

2) Better send the memo to Cupertino that you feel that they are not driving innovation. I'm sure the powers that be have a better understanding of where they are going and what they have accomplished then your view which self admittedly is Windows centric.

3) Gift to who? I'm sure Apple users and and Linux user can manage just fine without MS "gifting" anything to the computing public or at the very least them.

Mike, you are well qualified when it comes to Windows, no one will argue that. In fact I have learned quite a bit by reading your posts. But as far as your conclusions about Apple? Not even close.

Dude

1) Changing "standards" requires consent of people who have a BIG NIH problem with commercial designs

2) They seem happy resting on their laurels.

3) If Apple users and Linux users can manage just fine without MS improvements to OS technology, they're welcome to go back to using what they've actually invented. Now, where's that Linux shell that doesn't look like Windows?

Meanwhile...

www.techcrunch.com/.../foxconn-building-800000-iphones-a-week

iPhones are still moving at sell-out-daily rates and rumor has it that they've upped their production to a 800,000/week (or 41 million/year) rate.  That's insane.  The iPhone 3G at $199 may just beat Windows Mobile in marketshare THIS YEAR.  Ha. They've already beaten all mobile platforms in actual mobile internet use.  This is huge.

That should kick in some heavy developer activity which should drive the platform network effects bigtime.  A year from now, I bet nearly any app you could want will be available on the iPhone... looking better than ever and more optimized to the platform.

The smartphone marketshare graph is going to be: Apple, RIM, Nokia, Other... with other being a diet sized slice of pie.  Android commoditizing the third party OS license market with it's free platform won't help WinMo either.

Now... if only Apple could fix the damn bugs.

@Mike,

Don't go there on the "who came first" in operating system territory.  You wouldn't like Windows very much if you ripped out everything that was "inspired" by the Mac.  Come on.

Linux UI is a pathetic joke of a clone though.  No question.  Open Source and UI innovation don't seem to mix.  They're great at optimizing underpinnings and engines though.

@Dude: "Lostamystuff: You come from a incorrect assumption. I am fully aware how partisan things can be: evidence Xbox users against well anything that isn't Xbox..."

Would you care to tell us what the assumption is?

"iPhones are still moving at sell-out-daily rates and rumor has it that they've upped their production to a 800,000/week (or 41 million/year) rate.  That's insane.  The iPhone 3G at $199 may just beat Windows Mobile in marketshare THIS YEAR.  Ha. They've already beaten all mobile platforms in actual mobile internet use.  This is huge."

I remember my sister being this happy when my nephew was born. So, congratulations!

@john,

I'll match my facts against your facts any day.

I won't play my facts against your Apple "We invented the personal computer" Folklore, though, so do your homework since I won't be kind to "everybody knows" and "well, it's a given that..." type posts.

And that includes that Open Source is good at optimization or engines. That's just flat out wrong.

@Sharky,

What's worse... loving technology and being excited about seeing the stuff you use succeed (and hopefully improve)... or spending your time telling such people that they need to chill out?  Which is the bigger waste of time?  

Now... off to download iPhone 2.0.1.  Hopefully it will fix some of the bugginess.  Maybe after this, contact search will be as quick as my ancient Treo was... instead of taking 10 seconds to load the interface to the addressbook.

Sorry, Mike...

I'm not going to follow you down that fanboy rathole.  The history of the personal computer has many contributors, including Apple, Xerox, DEC, Digital research, canon, Atari, Microsoft, NeXT, Amiga and others.  Only the worst kind of hackery can come of trying to decide who "invented" a particular feature or approach in these complex systems.   Many of the broad concepts originated in the university setting and company research arms like PARC and were productized by multiple companies at once.  Some companies hired people that were part of the original research... others tried to go it their own way and copied what they could.

You obviously have made it clear that the history you chose to believe paints Apple as a minor player beyond the earliest stages.  I think that's ridiculous, but I'm prepared to agree to disagree.

All I really care about is that company that makes my favorite tools (Apple) is doing great, growing the market and the ecosystem of tools that make the stuff I use better.

Prior to the release of the iPhone, I was really considering a WinMo Treo.  I played with them as well as other WinMo devices and just found it to be a klunky, ugly, overly complex experience.  Some people like it.  Not me.

John, I had some questions about the phone, so I PM'ed you.

John

Guess I wouldn't be the one who wouldn't like it if we compared "who invented what"

Having been in the personal computer industry since before there was an Apple, I really don't need to much work to play that game since I was around for it.

So, next time, don't bluff

Oh, and John,

If you really believe that "All I really care about is that [Apple] is doing great" then it really makes little sense for you to spend time on a Windows blog, does it.

There's a large Apple echo chamber out there where you can hang out, make claims you can't back up and not have anyone call your bluff I suspect you'll be happier.

@Mike,

Well aren't you the greatest thing since sliced bread at the homebrew computer club!  And you think Apple users are arrogant snots?  Wow.  Somebody's got a major superiority complex.  You sound like cranky old fart yelling at the kids to get off his lawn.  

Obviously you know everything about every aspect of computing history.

Since you're so interested in repeated touting your credentials, I'd love to know what products you've developed.  You know, stuff you invented.

John

Getting a little snitty when people expect facts?

You were the one who stated that Microsoft would do badly if the "who invented what" issue was brought up. But when your bluff was called you backed out.

You're the one who stated that you only cared that Apple was doing great and then post non-facts about Apple achievements as things "everybody knows" on a Windows discussion.

Really, if you can't add some real facts to the discussion...

"Having been in the personal computer industry since before there was an Apple, I really don't need to much work to play that game since I was around for it."

This statement is the height of arrogance.  "I know everything, so don't even try".  Great, buddy.  You think you know everything...

So, what products have you invented in your 40 years in personal computing?  Huh?  Where is this arrogance come from?  And from what I can tell, the Apple II was among the first truly mainstream personal computers.  If you think the Altair constitutes a personal computer, you're really out to lunch.

Apple was selling personal computers when Microsoft was still porting languages for a living.  What were you doing then that you think empowers this arrogance?

Mike- Lets here your version of Windows revisionist history.

Please explain the following and how Microsoft invented them:

GUI

the Mouse

the first computers: the Collossus and ENIAC

the proto-internet (ARPANET)

the commercial internet (Tim Berners Lee and all)

Its going to get real interesting when you try to explain that Microsoft really didn't  create DOS (which they bought). PowerPoint (which was bought from a Mac developer), Internet Explorer which in turn was from Spyglass to Mosaic which originated on UNIX; Word anyone- read; Bravo and PARC.

Next,  I'm thinking that the Woz, Bruce Horn, Jeff Raskin, the entire Mac dev team, and most importantly Douglas Engelbart and his work at ARI and ARC would beg to differ as well. I'll give credit where credits is due. MS is a great business. Any attempts to label them as inventors is going to be laughable but fun to watch you try.

Mike I respect you Windows prowess, but your points reads like astroturf, or better yet an "open" version of the Halloween documents.

Can anyone confirm for me the spyglass licensing story.  Allegedly, Microsoft licensed the engine for a very generous percentage of revenue.  Then they gave away IE for free!  Oops.  Looks like 50% of nothing is nothing.  Sorry Spyglass.  If that's true, it's really another great example of how well Microsoft's "partners" get treated.  Apple is abusive too, but MS really puts the screws on partners.  Apple at least tends to buy out the product or hire the key people.

I'll give you another personal example of MS partner abuse.  When Urge was announced by MTV and Microsoft, I had a little chat with a top guy in adsales for MTVN.  We're both friendly nerds and both thought this was a match made in hell.  I told him that building our business on a Microsoft tech was a ticking timebomb and that as soon as Microsoft felt it didn't serve them, they'd stab us right in the back.  And wow did they ever.

Fast forward to last year.  Zune comes out with a store that looks just like Urge.  All Microsoft focus on Urge and playsforsure disappears.  Now Urge is sold off and merging with Real.

Replace Urge with Burst.com and you have another example of MS just learning what it can from a "partner" then screwing them.  

THAT'S what partnering with Microsoft is like.  That's why developers are so gun-shy to adopt their latest technologies.  That's why they have a bad reputation.  Because they deserve it.

@Papola:

Wow! Just when I think you're done, you find more ways to say how much you like Apple and dislike Microsoft.

Microsoft does compete with some of its partners. So does Google, in fact. Would I be right in saying that Apple learned what it could from Rokr and went ahead and introduced its own phone? Or it learned what it could from Microsoft Excel for Mac and went and developed Numbers? In fact, come December, Apple and Google will be competing with each other. If Android does become successful against the iPhone, I would like to see what you have to say about Google then.

Dude

I wouldn't. Those weren't invented by either Microsoft or Apple and most of them predate the personal computer.

Why would I make an idiotic claim?

Are you saying those are the only significant innovations in computing history or something?

"Wow! Just when I think you're done, you find more ways to say how much you like Apple and dislike Microsoft."

Really?  You think?  Duh.  I'm an Apple fan.  I don't like Microsoft.  I've never hid either fact.  I don't like to throw around broad "Microsoft Sucks" style nonsense since that's just unproductive hackery.

I'm not saying that Apple is a saint here.  Even so, competing with partners isn't the same problem as what Microsoft did with Burst. Urge and playsforsure is also pretty terrible.  If you're going to be "the platform company"... you have to live up to that bargain when other people rely on your stuff.  Apple gets dinged for being very tight about their platform on the iPhone, but at least everyone knows where they stand.  It's not a bait-and-switch like playsforsure.

All that said. Whatever.  My point is that those on this site claiming Microsoft is such a great partner are living in a dream world.  Anyone that's read about the anti-trust trial knows that the entire industry lived in fear and suspicion of Microsoft on many different levels as both partner and competitor.

John,

Here's a tip on honesty. First find out if a story is true, then, and only then, spread it.

Really. You could be working for an election year 501(c)(4) with this stuff.

Again, mike... I think we're all waiting to hear some more about your background given the claims you are making.  What have you done that makes you feel you know the history of technology better than everyone?

I'm sensing a dodge here.

Seriously, people, this is getting silly.

I'm waiting for the first poster who posts both "Microsoft never invented anything" and "It's so unfair that Microsoft enforces all those patents" in the same post.

John,

First you attack me for listing my credentials then you attack me for not listing them?

Seriously. It's just getting silly.

@mike,

"here's a tip on honesty".  What are you talking about.  I heard that spyglass story on John Gruber's podcast, called it alleged and asked if anyone can confirm it.  

How's that ivory tower?  Does it take long to climb up all those steps?  man.

What credentials did you list, exactly?

John,

"Anyone that's read about the anti-trust trial knows [...]"

And that's where you keep getting it wrong...

Anyone that's read ABOUT the trial knows what the particular reporter said.

I read ABOUT the WMDs in Iraq. That didn't mean what I read was true.

I read ABOUT how Apple invented the personal computer (in Apple's own marketing material). That doesn't mean what I read was true.

Anyone that's read the actual transcript might know something but reading a report of a report? Not so much.

I'm guessing you didn't bother reading primary source but just read whatever reporter spun it the way you already wanted to believe.

The transcripts are still available online. Feel free to download them and read them and get back to us. They are several thousand pages but they're a fairly quick read.

Here's a test question for you.

Which major OEM testified that Microsoft's suspending their Windows resale license was a blatant example of unfair competition but later had to admit that reason their license was suspended was because they had only been reporting (and paying for) a small fraction of the copies of Windows they'd sold. And had been warned they wouldn't be able to renew their license unless they paid their overdue bills. And still hadn't paid their bill months later when their license expired.

It's all in the transcript. If you know the trial well enough to talk about it, you'll know the answer.

Come back when you can talk intelligently or when you decide to only talk about those things you actually know something about.

John,

re: credentials

Quoting you on this page...

"Since you're so interested in repeated touting your credentials, "

Again, you'd probably be happier on some board where you can claim whatever you want and as long as it reinforces the board's biases, nobody will ask for facts.

"Really?  You think?  Duh.  I'm an Apple fan.I don't like Microsoft."

I can tell. Somehow, like Walt Mossberg and their ilk, you equate being a fan of Apple to being a fan of technology in general. According to you guys, if it's not the Apple way, it's the wrong way.

"My point is that those on this site claiming Microsoft is such a great partner are living in a dream world."

Obviously not. Microsoft has its own and its shareholders' interests in mind first. It's not a charity, you know? Lots of companies compete with their customers. Sandisk, Samsung, and Toshiba are good examples. Let me ask you this. If it's not profitable for them, should Microsoft persist with the playsforsure model forever?

""Really?  You think?  Duh.  I'm an Apple fan.I don't like Microsoft."

Really????!!

BWAHHAHAH!

Talk about contradicting yourself on the wrong target.

You've said before that you like Microsoft, and that you just "don't like Windows.  That's the point".  Your words.

Now you're contradicting (read: retracting) that statement.  So now the mask comes off.

You sir, can now be branded an iLIAR!

Whatever nonsensical claptrap you can murmer on with can now be taken as complete dishonesty.

"Really?  You think?  Duh.  I'm an Apple fan.I don't like Microsoft."

But then you call Paul a partisan hack?  Who's being the partisan here?  So if you don't like Microsoft, yet you come to winsupersite.com averaging two posts per day since you joined.  That really doesn't seem like an awful good use of your time.  You've tried to project that you are a voice of reason and just a regular guy who likes technology, and only the people on the "dark side" are the hacks.  But we now see that it's all smoke and mirrors, and you are just here to vent and complain about MS.

I'm glad that Mike is here.  He is much more eloquent, knowledgeable and formidable foil to you than Wae.

Wow, Mike.  Wow.  Using Iraq and WMD as a bizarro world strawman in a discussion about Microsoft and the antitrust trial.  So reading about something is now invalid because of Iraq?  You really aren't a very nice person to interact with, sir.  I think that's pretty clear for all to see.

These are the "facts" you bring to the table?  Nice facts.  And nice way to, once again, dodge the question at hand.  You claimed that you are the lord of computing history "Having been in the personal computer industry since before there was an Apple, I really don't need to much work to play that game since I was around for it."

That is your alleged credential to act like a pompous know-it-all?  A quick look at every article in this blog shows that you have taken on the role of Microsoft defender extraordinaire.  You obviously think VERY highly of yourself and your industry knowledge.

So.  What do you do?  What have you worked on?  What invention and innovations have you been a part of?  So far, you've shown nothing.  For all we know, you've been working at Radio Shack selling wiring kits since 1965 and you consider that being "in the personal computer industry".  If you're going to make bold claims about your knowledge and experience... be prepared to back them up.  

In our discussion of OSX, I talked about Quartz, Core Image and how that innovation has lead to powerful applications that I use in my work as a director/editor.  You can see my work at my website and judge the quality for yourself.  

You obviously think Microsoft has never done anything wrong.  I'm neither prepared nor should be expected to re-litigate the anti-trust trial.  The judge found them to be a guilty of abusing their monopoly, bullying competitors illegally and ordered them split.  I'll let the already-litigated case stand for itself.  

You work on the "one example invalidates all" model of argument while rejecting the same in kind from others.

Regardless, this is all just a dodge.  You want me to go away rather than let everyone know what qualifies you to behave this way.  Sorry.  You are wishing for the echo chamber you claim I should seek.  

I don't claim to be an expert on all things.  I just try to come to the table with a complete thought and a critical mind.  I'm a fan of Apple but also a former PC builder and do just love tech in general.

@Sharky,

I do love all good tech.  I own and enjoy and Xbox.  I use and mostly like MS Office.  I'm not remotely as partisan as some of you try to paint.  But don't go to the "it's for profit" defense on this one.  There's nothing wrong with admitting that Microsoft as abused it's monopoly.  It's already a proven fact in our highest court.  Don't stoop to Mike's level.

Yikes...I think that I am glad that I  don't work with, for, or around most of you. This has turned into a childish "my d*ck is bigger than yours" argument. It is not productive in any way...and shows that, just like in politics, being extreme in either direction is not good for the general public.

jp and mikegalos - you are both arguing about credentials...remember, the interweb is anonymous...I could claim to be Pamela Anderson, and post links to sites that appear to verify that..but in reality, I may just be a 65 year old, 300 pound bald guy with a hairy back sitting in my basement in my yellow and brown stained underwear.

--tayme

@Dip,

Let me spell out what I mean by "partisan hack".  

"PARTISAN HACK":

A partisan hack is someone that is so committed to their "team" that they are incapable of acknowledging what's reasonably true about the other "team".  It's endemic of any subject be it politics, game consoles, cars, or computing platforms.  There's often a degree of ignorance and mindless headline quoting that goes with partisan hackery, but it's not a requirement.

The intelligent hacks are the most vexing as they seem smart enough to be capable of objectivity (in so far as it's possible by any person) and yet aren't.  Partisan hackery is often best identified by someone's inability to stay on a subject, constantly dodging and changing topics to evade true rebuttal.  Partisan hacks will often try to dodge this mantel by acknowledging the existence of a point from the other side (when it's demonstrably indisputable) but then marginalizing the value of the point, often in contradiction to their own line of argument.

Personal attacks, often in the form of calling people a "liar" are also a common symptom of partisan hackery.

In the worst case, a partisan hack has a personal vested interest in their side of the discussion and so are financially motived to spin the truth and ignore what doesn't fit into their worldview.  These are the true shills.  They are lobbyists of the worst sort.  Perhaps most dangerous of all... partisan hacks often seem to wish away the existence of the other team.  This kind of hope for a world of pure ideology is scary and weird.

Now, you can certainly favor a side without being a hack.  In fact, I don't know how anyone that's passionate and active (and therefore interesting to debate with) can NOT have preferences.

EXAMPLES:

Waethorn is an amazing partisan hack.  He doesn't think Apple has done anything worthwhile since opendoc.  That is not a reasonable position.  He dodges direct debate by changing the subject.  He calls me and others "liar" routinely without any regard for what that really means.  Everyone reasonable on this site knows Waethorn is a hack.

Mike is more articulate and seems more willing to engage in discussion, but his hackery comes into play pretty quickly.  His is the more subtle variation by acknowledging what can't be disputed (where-as Waethorn won't admit the sky is blue if a mac user says it) but then trivializing the point.  

For example.  We had a lengthy back and forth in another thread after Mike claimed that Apple had contributed next to nothing to desktop operating systems.  I went into a detailed explanation (as deep as I'm capable of at least) of how important the Quartz drawing engine was to OSX, how it's GPU compositing predated even PDC2003's Longhorn demo and was currently powering very impressing realtime broadcast-quality animation.  I pointed out that Avalon/WPF was and is touted by Microsoft themselves as one of the the Key pillars of Windows Vista, and so Apple's innovation and leadership in that space and the importance of that functionality was pretty well established.

His retort?  Yeah... okay... Quartz came first... but it's not a major thing.  I still say Apple contributes little.

That's partisan hackery.  Microsoft themselves call a new graphics subsystem a crucial and essential part of the Vista upgrade but Mike must trivialize that in contradiction to reality in order to hold to his original point.

Now to me.  I try not to hack it up, though sometimes my passions can get the better of me on the insulting front, when pressed by craziness.  I'm an Apple fan.  I don't like Microsoft or their product strategy in general, though I do enjoy some of their products and wish them to succeed.  I'm perfectly willing to admit when Microsoft does something right or beats Apple in an area.  And I think I have a far better sense of the proportionality of these things.  I don't trivialize major accomplishments the way Mike does.  I certainly don't ignore them the way Waethorn does.

I love my Xbox (which is the most mac-like product they make).  I think the Zune is a very good product, if painfully derivative.  Office for Windows is excellent and it's good enough on the Mac.  Media Center and Tablet are both innovative though both are market flops to date.  I think Microsoft does a better job communicating with developers and their community overall than Apple (that's pretty clear).  But I also think Microsoft abuses that communication to chill the market with early discussion of products that often don't ship or don't ship as promised.  We can go on.  The point is, I have a nuanced perspective on Microsoft.  It's not "Microsoft Sucks".  As a libertarian-leaning person, I'm even willing to dig into the anti-trust situation in the context of the role of government in markets...  but that's a far bigger debate that I'm not really studied up for right this second.

So judge me all you'd like.  I'm crazy verbose.  I waste time on this site because I like to debate and because Paul posts about Apple every day.  Wishing people like me away doesn't say anything good about the people that do so.

Peace.

Actually, I'd advise anyone who actually cares to read the discussion rather than count on John's shall we say questionable description.

"He doesn't think Apple has done anything worthwhile since opendoc."

Sorry, but that's an outright lie.  I already said at least 2 products from Apple that I liked.  Just because you can't remember that, doesn't make it untrue.

"He calls me and others "liar" routinely without any regard for what that really means."

It means you aren't telling the truth.  Seems pretty straight-forward to me.  The only person it doesn't, is apparently you.

"a partisan hack has a personal vested interest in their side of the discussion and so are financially motived to spin the truth and ignore what doesn't fit into their worldview.  These are the true shills."

AHA!  So you are an Apple shill, since you base your business around Final Cut Studio, OS X, and thus, Apple, as you so clearly define in your pro-Apple blathering.

@Waethorn,

The flimsy nonsense you dig up to base that "LIAR" tag on is shameful.  Calling someone a liar is a serious charge.  Me saying at some point that I liked Microsoft and now saying that I overall don't, or do only for certain things isn't worthy of that charge.

You claimed there was no Canadian demand for the iPhone and that Rogers was being practically forced to sell it by Apple.  Rogers themselves have said the exact opposite.  Does that make you a liar?

And I really don't know how I personally profit from liking Final Cut Pro.  I don't sell final cut or Apple computers.  I don't currently own any Apple stock.  If Avid or Adobe beat Final Cut for what I need, I'd switch with ease.  I still use After Effects instead of Apple Motion because AE is better.

Now, you, on the otherhand, make your living selling Windows PCs.  You troll Apple stores for customers.  The Apple store is your direct competitor.  So who is the shill?

I'll leave you all with these two links, which I think are both right on.

loomisnews.wordpress.com/.../how-to-win-an-argument-on-the-internet

redwing.hutman.net/.../fanboy.htm

Waethorn  said:

"a partisan hack has a personal vested interest in their side of the discussion and so are financially motived to spin the truth and ignore what doesn't fit into their worldview.  These are the true shills."

AHA!  So you are an Apple shill, since you base your business around Final Cut Studio, OS X, and thus, Apple, as you so clearly define in your pro-Apple blathering.

Conversely:

AHA!  So you are an Microsoft shill, since you base your business around building PCs, Windows, and thus, Microsoft, as you so clearly define in your pro-Windows blathering.

Pot meet kettle, and by the way is that a glass house you're standing in?

@dip...

Haha.  Those links are great.  I think in this discussion, I'm the ass making the same noises over and over and Mike & Waethorn are the two-year-olds plugging their ears screaming "I can't hear you!!!!".

heh. I'm gonna bookmark those.

Here's an amazing example of a hack/shill of epic proportions:

www.ectnews.com/.../64024.html

Oh yes.  Rob Enderle.  Here, he discusses Dell's upcoming "re-imagining of digital music" in the most glowing possible way for something that's vaporware.  

He concludes "I'm not sure I'd bet against Michael Dell" as if Michael Dell or his company has a shred of experience in software, services or user experience (he doesn't).

What he fails to point out is that he's a paid consultant by Dell for his very music effort.  He doesn't disclose this connection at all on the page.  It's amazing dishonesty and a complete disregard for any shred of ethics.  What a pathetic mess.  

That is being a hack and a shill.  It's worth noting that Paul has defended this clown to me in email on numerous occasions.

"The flimsy nonsense you dig up to base that "LIAR" tag on is shameful.  Calling someone a liar is a serious charge.  Me saying at some point that I liked Microsoft and now saying that I overall don't, or do only for certain things isn't worthy of that charge."

Why?  Because it's the truth?  You are a liar.  The fact that you deny it is the only thing shameful here.

"You claimed there was no Canadian demand for the iPhone and that Rogers was being practically forced to sell it by Apple."

Sorry, never said that.  I said that Rogers didn't want it.  Period.  No part of that was about Apple or customer demand.  That's another "LIAR" strike against you, I'm afraid.  The fact is that Rogers didn't want it because it meant that they would have to readjust their inflated data rates so as to accomodate users that want to use their iPhone for massive web browsing.  Now they have data rates that they can both manage and subsidize the phone cost, and still profitize their investment.  It's still more expensive than competitors though, and for no reason at all.  Whether or not this is Apple's fault, I'd say that if Apple wanted to garner sales and drive costs down, they should've released an EVDO version, considering that EVDO is in their primary market - North America.  As such, they chose to exclusively sell to a select network in each market.  They chose exclusivity over competition.  Their platform only runs on one system, and they have no interest in competition at all.  Apple continues to grossly profit from this, and Apple fanboys lap it up, even though they continue to get hosed.  The recurring revision from Apple has only minor feature additions while not addressing the major pain points of the original.  Instead of actually listening to people, they force-feed new features that nobody really cares about.  Similarly their software flaws continue to flourish, and people still keep having problems with it, despite patch after patch being released.

Hmm....did Apple use the same OS X devs to do the iPhone & MobileMe?

"You troll Apple stores for customers."

Sorry, but I don't "troll" for customers.  I pick up unhappy customers.  That's hardly trolling.  If the "geniuses" really knew how to keep customers happy, they wouldn't be running out of the store screaming [mad].

"The Apple store is your direct competitor."

BWAHAHAHA!  Seriously?!  ROFLMAO!

Hardly.  In all honestly, let's just say we have a working business relationship:  they screw customers up the pooper and reject them, and I take them on and make them happy.  No, my real competition is the mindset that a "value" system = a  "good value" system.  That said, on at least 3 separate occasions, I can thank Apple for sales of new PC's.  Only from their lackluster customer support and poor hardware design would I have been able to take those customers away from them.  Thanks Apple!  >:)

"And I really don't know how I personally profit from liking Final Cut Pro.  I don't currently own any Apple stock.  I still use After Effects instead of Apple Motion because AE is better."

"I don't sell final cut or Apple computers."

No, your 3 page long comments just sound like case studies every time you post for no reason whatsoever, eh?

"If Avid or Adobe beat Final Cut for what I need, I'd switch with ease."

That's hilarious.  Tell us another story.

Same old Waethorn.  Same old libelous personal attacks.  Again, I invite you to come down here to New York and call me a "LIAR!!" to my face, buddy.  You don't have the guts.

Seriously.  Come on down.  While you're here I can give you a lesson in economics, since you obviously have no idea how it works.  "Grossly profit"... yeah right.  So there's no demand for Mac yet they manage to price gouge anyway without a monopoly?  Ha.  Go pick up a highschool economics text.  And I know your take on the fact that Apple as much higher customer satisfaction scores across the board already:  apple users are zombies.

You are predictable, cowardly troll throwing harsh libel around from the safety  of your basement in Canada.  Good luck with that.

Whoever you are DO NOT COME TO NEW YORK.

"There's nothing wrong with admitting that Microsoft as abused it's monopoly."

I don't think we were even discussing this. I am not here to defend everything that Microsoft does. Bill Gates, as a CEO, was no saint.

"Personal attacks, often in the form of calling people a "liar" are also a common symptom of partisan hackery."

What about personal attacks in the form of calling others a "partisan hack"?

The way I see it, every poster here has some kind of a bias. It may not be to the bonch proportions. (For those of you who are new, bonch was a frequent poster on the Windows IT Pro site with an unhealthy obsession with Apple.)

Also, this name calling based on where someone worked a long time ago is silly, in my opinion.

"Whoever you are DO NOT COME TO NEW YORK. "

I don't know who that was addressed to. I have already bought the US Open Tennis tickets. Sorry.

John

"And I really don't know how I personally profit from liking Final Cut Pro.  I don't sell final cut or Apple computers.  I don't currently own any Apple stock.  If Avid or Adobe beat Final Cut for what I need, I'd switch with ease.  I still use After Effects instead of Apple Motion because AE is better."

Hmm, all that "I don't have a financial tie with Apple" talk kind of contradicts your promotional material:

"I'm now a fully baked Mac-fanatic and as a commercial director make my living with Apple products. " or

"John's also a long-time technologist and die-hard Apple fanatic" or

"Did I mention that I’m a former PC-freak turned super-crazy mac nerd that worships Steve Jobs?"

Or maybe there's just another John Papola in the TV business who uses his self proclaimed status as a Mac-Fanatic as his self-promotion hook on all his blogs.

Could be.

I know I'm not a football coach or a chevy salesman and a search on my name would yield those wrong hits. So, let us know.

John

Assuming:

"Whoever you are DO NOT COME TO NEW YORK. "

was not meant as a threat to someone, you should probably clear it up. It comes across that way.

it was john papola's wife

>>"Whoever you are DO NOT COME TO NEW YORK. "

>>>was not meant as a threat to someone, you should probably clear it up. It comes across that way.

>>>>"it was john papola's wife"

And who was it addressed to ... and why?

Wow, this thread is sooooooo long that I flicked my finger in to spasm on my iPhone trying to get to the bottom:) Ouch!

Guys, you know as your friendly community MD, I gotta warn you all that stress kills. I blow off steam lifting weights and, of all things, taking care of my landscaping, including 29 large rose bushes, 15 mini roses and numerous shrubs. Please keep calm, and try to provoke each other less. Don't get me wrong, there's great entertainment value, as I know is intended, but there's a little too much attack at times. Remember, the Doc is here if you need him.

Peace

PS, a punching bag [I prefer a speed or 'peanut' bag] is great too, but even with gloves, your knuckles look like a wreck. Patients get freaked out, so I quit.

From John's webpage:

"

SITES I VISIT DAILY:

hdforindies.com

cinematech.blogspot.com

NewTeeVee.com

Prolost.blogspot.com

Reduser.net

Daringfireball.net

Digg.com

Macsurfer.com

Engadget.com"

Note that Paul's site is missing from the list. Are you embarrassed to mention it?

Also, your webpage throws exceptions in Windows (both in FF3 and IE7).

"And I know your take on the fact that Apple as much higher customer satisfaction scores across the board already:  apple users are zombies."

Well, since the top 3 US publications have tech columnists that are already Mac fans, and have been handed free iPhone's PLUS subscriptions (although they had to pay for MobileMe accounts, which they subsequently panned), and then just as suddenly proclaimed the iPhone the-greatest-mobile-platform-on-the-planet(TM), and you also claim that you're a Jobs-worshipping fanboy and preach love, peace, and all that other *** - but not for Windows users - then, by your own admission:  Apple users ARE zombies!

"Again, I invite you to come down here to New York and call me a "LIAR!!" to my face, buddy.  You don't have the guts."

"Whoever you are DO NOT COME TO NEW YORK."

So that's what your argument has come to when you can't explain yourself:  open threats.  Sad, pal.  Just plain sad.  Even losta....

Well, actually now that I think about it....losta came pretty close to doing the same thing, with a STFU here and there....

I guess you're all zombies of the same rags.

....I'm sure that one is in the "how to win an argument" playbook somewhere....

You're just a sad, sad liar.

"Note that Paul's site is missing from the list. Are you embarrassed to mention it?"

I smell a proxy bonch.

Furthermore, I'd imagine that his employer wouldn't take too kindly to an employee of theirs wasting time to make threatening statements to people online....

Wae, it was his wife. I am always signed in on my computer so my wife can easily add a comment, and our wives tell us to get off these sites when we get made. You better be careful or she'll kick your butt!:) i bet she's a feisty Irish girl like mine. Me, I'm Italian, but trust me, don't piss off my mom or say a bad word about her [adorable] baby boy.

@doc:

I take that previous proclamation with a grain of salt.  Much like his honesty.  Much like the claim of his own identity.  This isn't the first time he's said that though, whether it be "his wife" or not.  

Either he's just a troll that's hiding behind someone elses identity, or else he's actually that stupid to openly make threats on a public board.  Either way, if I actually took his threats seriously (which I don't), I'd probably be on the phone to my lawyer right now to take legal action against him.  Mind you, that's no threat....

I suspect that when Paul launches

"The SuperSite Switcher Guide - From Mac to Windows - You know you want to"

that he's advertising on the top of the SuperSite main page there'll be a lot of Mac lobbiest's wives posting...

And finally, I have one last comment before bed. Exchange is friggin' the best!!!!!!

Nighty night,

Doc

@mikegalos - You have posted the same thing regarding Paul's switcher article on multiple threads...that is true trolling and flame baiting. Plus, I think that I remember reading a post from you telling another person to quit trying to hijack the thread...a little double standard, huh?

--tayme

"Plus, I think that I remember reading a post from you telling another person to quit trying to hijack the thread"

And that was on a thread that you had already hijacked to discuss 64 bit processors...What makes you think that you can tell others do stop doing the very thing that you do?

--tayme

My wife saw my admittedly juvenile baiting of Waethorn after his "liar" smear and got freaked that he may be a nut-job that'll take it serious and hunt me down.  At ease everyone.

She is right that I'm wasting my time in these threads.  I should be working on my movie ideas instead of debating with people whose minds are already made up.  

Goodnight guys.

@Doc.  Exchange is awesome.  Totally great.  MS gets the business side.  No doubt.

Tayme

I posted an OT entry marked OT when and only when there was no place where it was ON topic.

Later, a reasonably on topic place occurred to post it.

If you can find a way to delete the earlier OT posting in the first thread, feel free to do so. I don't know of any.

Oh, and what I objected to was an OT post which was a follow up to a discussion already going on specifically on that exact topic but that wasn't getting enough traffic for the poster.

As for the 64-bit discussion, that was in reply to a post titled "Suddenly, 64-bit Windows is mainstream". I kind of think that's on topic.

Maybe it not being a discussion about Apple made things too confusing...

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Maybe it not being a discussion about Apple made things too confusing...

Yeah, how refreshing would it be to have blog entries regarding Windows...

John, I have to say that you've become just as bad as those people you loath.  I don't blame your wife for getting a little freaked, and I hope she made you sleep on the couch, because you are just as big of a participant in this as Wae and Mike are.  Making idle physical threats are totally uncalled for, and quite "hackish" I must say.  What are you guys going to start disparaging each others mothers now?

Anyway, I can get to midtown in about 30-45 minutes assuming the NJ traffic gods are on my side, but it seems like I would need to be strapped ;) <- wink, wink, BTW, look it up on urbandictionary for those that don't know.

Sorry, Mike...you are just plain wrong. I believe that the topic of this thread - community.winsupersite.com/.../it-s-easy-to-grow-when-you-re-small.aspx - that you hijacked to discuss 64 bit and multi core processors was "It's easy to grow when you're small" and was Posted Aug 03 2008, 04:41 AM by pthurrott. There was already a thread titled "Suddenly, 64-bit Windows is mainstream" that was Posted Jul 31 2008, 07:24 AM by pthurrott that would have been more on topic - community.winsupersite.com/.../suddenly-64-bit-windows-is-mainstream.aspx

So, again..I ask you, why do you feel that you are important enough to hijack a thread, but gripe when others do? Seems a little pompous to me.

--tayme

Wow, nothing is sacred at this site! :)

Tayme you should know better then to point out Mike's contradictions... :)

Very strange... I've updated my WinMo phone and now Hotmail syncs and keeps repeating my emails.  A buddy of mine who I emailed has received my email over and over again literally 60 times a day for the past couple days.  Thoughts?

Tayme,

If we're talking about that thread then perhaps you should have actually read it.

Two points

The topic of 64-bit was part of Paul's initial post. It WAS the topic.

My first comment on 64-bit was a reply to an earlier post on 64-bit that was, shall we say, factually challenged.

"My wife saw my admittedly juvenile baiting of Waethorn after his "liar" smear and got freaked that he may be a nut-job that'll take it serious and hunt me down.  At ease everyone."

So that was her, when?  This time?  How about all of the other times you said THE EXACT SAME THING?

Sorry, but nobody believes you anymore.

@Mike - You should just admit it..you were wrong. The "Easy to grow when you are small" thread was NOT ABOUT 64 bit computing...it was about exactly what title says...that Paul mentions 64 bit processors in the second paragraph, saying that the same is true in that world, does not change what the subject of Paul's original post was.

"My first comment on 64-bit was a reply to an earlier post on 64-bit that was, shall we say, factually challenged."

Why respond to that one at all...when on another thread your response was to tell the poster to quit post OT questions? Why the double standard? What makes you the topic cop on Paul's site?

You, John, and Waethorn are so obsessed with this pi$$ing contest that you are in that the 3 of you have in fact, hijacked Paul's entire blog site and made it, first and foremost, an OS war site. Maybe that was Paul's goal....

--tayme

Tayme-

You doubt that you are wrong on any of those points? I actually believe you are dead on my friend.

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