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Paul,

In your review I hope to see why I should or should not migrate to this from FF3.

You said this earlier:

>>one thing that hasn't changed for Firefox since the first version shipped in November 2004 is that this impressive browser is still the one to beat. Microsoft can make a lot of noise about Internet Explorer 8 (see my preview) and Apple can muddy the waters with its unnecessary (and dishonestly distributed) Safari browser. None of it matters. When it comes to Web browsers, there's Firefox and then there's everything else.<<

I only use IE for Internal websites (and *finally* the web developers upstairs are showing signs of shifting away from that).

Thanks,

Ocean

PS.  Still waiting on your Mac to Windows migration guide.

Cool.  As a web developer, I've been waiting for a chance to play with 8.

Question:  Can IE8 be installed without blowing away IE7?  And still be able to run IE7 when needed?  This would be handy for me, as I'd like to test under IE8 but don't want to set up a separate machine just to do so.  (I already run 9 different browsers on three different platforms, so life is confusing enough as it is.)

Thanks.

I just installed it and I can already notice the improvements over beta 1. The performance has greatly improved, it isn't as sluggish for me on my laptop as the first beta was. I like what they did with the search bar; it goes through your history, suggested searches, and feeds on the current webpage. I can still see some minor display issues, but It seems pretty solid so far.

>>I like what they did with the search bar; it goes through your history, suggested searches, and feeds on the current webpage. <<

Sounds like the FF3 'Awesome' bar.  I've read that several have wanted to turn the feature off.

I, for the life of me, CANNOT believe they did not update the download manager. For crying out loud, how hard do people have to ***, complain, and whine.

Also, compatibility mode, for some reason, cannot be turned on in some sites (like Hotmail). I set it to always be on and I *still* have rendering issues in some pages I used to not have. How f-ed up is that???

Of course, going to http://www.me.com with IE 8 Beta 2 still gives:

Internet Explorer 7 is not fully supported

Internet Explorer 7 has known compatibility issues with modern web standards which affect Web 2.0 applications such as MobileMe.

You can use Internet Explorer 7, but you will not have access to all MobileMe features and will experience slower performance.

For the best MobileMe experience, please use Firefox 3 or Safari 3.

@mikegalos: For someone who doesn't do an awful lot of thinking about Apple, you sure comment on them a lot.

Hey look, theres Mike bashing Apple like he does in every comment.  woo hoo.  IE 8 is in BETA and even Paul in his review said things dont work with it yet, give it time.  

@Mike

Did you read Paul's review of IE8 Beta 2? Microsoft's own sites aren't rendering correctly in the default standards compliant mode or compatibility mode, but you choose to bang the Apple drum instead, nice.

OK, I admit I should have known that IE 8 Beta 1 wasn't a program (for removal purposes) but an update.  I mean, its obvious, that since IE can't be stripped out per sworn testimony, changing it must mean updating it.  Once I got to the right removal place, Beta 1 removed nicely.

Then the install was painless (if not swift, but the machine is not swift).

And the browser looked good until I visited--

 www.microsoft.com/.../default.aspx

at which point I got an "Internet explorer has stopped working" box in front of a seemingly complete page.  Clearly I shouldn't go off visiting suspect sites.  ;-)

Mike..THAT is what trolling is.

Thanks for the demo.

Strange. I had no problems with www.microsoft.com/.../default.aspx

So far, I'm pretty impressed with IE8. It does have minor problems, but it's still in beta so I think I can live with them.

Shark...a replacement for FF3?

shark47, I haven't had trouble with the Microsoft top page since that first adventure.  A problem I am having is having my wireless connection die between page views (such as between reading this page and trying to post this).  

This is new behavior, on my home network that  I usually have no trouble with.  Disconnecting and reconnecting using the icon in the tray fixes it.

Ed Bott has a great write up about IE8:

blogs.zdnet.com/Bott

By the way, I still use FF3. :-)

Fascinating.  Firefox produces the same problem of the connection being unusable between page views.  (Not stated before:  ping given in Command Prompt fails too.)

Yet another machine restart in progress.  Hard to see how having IE 8 Beta 2 installed would cause that when using Netscape.  Restart didn't help.  This is almost certainly something here:  I can't believe that one of Paul and Ed Bott would not have noticed sudden failures of networking.

Meanwhile, note the spacing oddities in my prior post.  That was written in IE 8 Beta 2 (with a disconnect/reconnect wireless cycle after trying to post).  (This is written in Safari on Mac--I see absolutely zero reason to run Safari on Windows.)

"Fascinating.  Firefox produces the same problem of the connection being unusable between page views. "

I didn't have any wireless connectivity problem. I think there's something else going on here. BTW, did you have those problems on XP or Vista?

Thanks Shark. Its a good read.

Bott is a great journalist.

I like the additional stuff re: The awesome bar

But I don't see much here to make me move on...and if anything, I think we'll see those additions grafted onto FF3.

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Buggy??

>>For those who may have been unable to sleep, tossing and turning, feverishly awaiting the second beta of Internet Explorer 8 -- you can relax now. It's here.

Or, depending on how well you tolerate buggy, unfinished software, your anxiety may be just beginning.

--

But here's my quick verdict: It has some intriguing features and I generally like it, but unless the final Beta 2 has dramatically improved stability, most users will want to wait for a release candidate or the finished version to try it out.

<<

blogs.chron.com/.../now_available_for_the_brave_internet_explorer_1.html

If you can't handle buggy, unfinished software, participating in a beta is pretty much a bad idea.

Of course, some vendors seem to leave their products in beta forever so that might say something, too.

I must be missing something about the recent IE 8 review that was released.  When I press Ctrl-F and start entering search terms IE gets busy searching the page and highlighting things that it is finding in yellow.

This seems to contradict the review posted which says "This toolbar works much like a similar feature in Mozilla Firefox but does not provide results highlighting."

Am I missing something here?  Maybe we have a slightly newer version?

Buggy (within reason) is OK for a sandbox machine.  At this point I wouldn't recommend IE 8 beta 2 for a non-sandbox.

I love IE 8. I am writing this comment from IE 8 now. I think I might make IE my default browser instead of Firefox 3.01

tmgarrison

I get highlighting as well. (But there is a button on the search bar to turn it on and off. Perhaps it wasn't in last week's builds or, more likely, they didn't click the button)

"Of course, some vendors seem to leave their products in beta forever so that might say something, too."

Someone's grandpa wouldn't be happy if he knew his pic is has been used in their avatar.

After reading both Paul's and Ed Bott's review of the I.E. 8 beta, I'm glad to see Microsoft is heading in the right direction to standards.

That being said, its also clear that there's some work to be done. The whole point of a beta program is to get it somewhat in the wild, so we can work out the issues with feedback from brave users willing to try.

I do like the MS approach because it lets anyone help finish a product. Thats really a lot more than I can say about Apple, since they have no true public beta programs on such a scale. Mobile Me's launch and the subsequent problems was definitely the proof that beta programs are the way to finalize a product.

That doesn't mean it will be flawless. However it does put things to the paces, Microsoft gets the feedback and works to tighten up, polish down, and optimise for the final RTM. I'll definitely be keeping an eye on I.E. 8's beta and hope it all comes together. If not, there's always Firefox and Opera.

Later.

I'm a die-hard Opera user... but I have to say that I'm loving the tab groups and accelerators.

@mike...Wow you could author this blog.  Your first post is so Paul, and pure genius.  I mean take a IE8 Beta 2 blog post, that is actually interesting Windows news for once and bash Apple with it????  Dont quit your day job.

The IE team should seriously consider porting IE to OS X and Linux.  This new version looks promising.

So far, so good. I haven't had any major problems so far. Of course, I've used it only for an hour or so. One thing is clear - Microsoft is taking browser security seriously.

OK...so it IS buggy.

Just as an FYI, the review in ArsTechnica mentioned that IE8 does not render some Microsoft sites correctly and gave a screenshot of Hotmail Classic as an example. I tried it today and didn't have problems. Microsoft does seem to have worked on this, among other issues during the last few days.

>>just how well does IE8 Beta 2 perform in the Web browser standards test?

The answer, for now, is an unparalleled "not too good." The new beta passed the old Acid2 test with flying colors, rendering the happy face completely, even with the proper radio buttons for eyes. But in its standard mode -- which now supposedly adheres to published Web standards rather than IE6 "best practices" -- IE8 Beta 2 scored only as high as a 21% on the Web Standards Project's Acid3 test. Meanwhile in "Compatibility View," which is supposed to render pages like IE7 and IE6, the new beta scored so low that you couldn't even read the text of the score on the rendered page.<<

www.betanews.com/.../1219941173

Ocean,

You probably should also point out that no released browsers pass Acid3 (some special test versions do) and that Acid3 is still under development. (Not exactly "Web browser standards")

On the other hand, IE 8 beta 1 and beta 2 both pass the current Acid2 "standards test"

Also note that calling any Acid test a "standards test" is a bit silly since there is NO standards body that uses Acid as its offical test suite so what it measures isn't compliance to standards but compliance to the people who write Acid's interpretation of standards.

Welcome to the world of "standards" that aren't standard.

Hmm, IE not passing Acid 3 is an 'unparalleled "not too good." '

Yeesh. Must be some new meaning of the word "unparalleled" of which I was previously unaware.

Just to be thorough:

Released browsers that don't pass Acid 3

Firefox 3.01

Konqueror 4.1.0

Opera 9.52

Internet Explorer 7.0

Safari 3.1

Pocket IE

Opera Mini 4.1.1.11320

Opera Mobile 8.65

NetFront 3.5

iPhone browser firmware 2.0.2

Iris 1.0.10

Released Browsers that DO pass Acid 3

None

Good article about a nice feature , a mode called InPrivateBrowsing:

www.comcast.net/.../TEC.Microsoft.Internet.Explorer.8

mike. Seriously dude.

The pickle. Remove it from your a$$.

RunTimeError:

Quit being an a$$. Got anything worthwhile to contribute to the discussion? Would you rather have Ocean and the ilk's uncontested cut and paste BS?

RaaJ

"Would [RunTimeError] rather have Ocean and the ilk's uncontested cut and paste BS?"

I think we all know the answer to that is yes.

In response to Mike's MobileMe bash....

news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-10028458-75.html

And in response to Lindy's post - IE8 is in beta. MobileMe isn't, I think. :-)

Of course, this doesn't mean I approve of the dig at MobileMe. I don't. It was irrelevant.

We've done the whole MobileMe bash thing before. Apple pulled the cheeky comment about IE7's "known compatibility issues with standards" after some heat from blogs (Paul's included), but those sneaky fruitheads put that back in.

RaaJ

Not true. As of TODAY the MobileMe still says the same thing I posted above with IE8 in both IE8 mode and IE7 compatibility mode. They're obviously only testing with code that looks like this pseudocode:

If IE, check MajorVersion

If MajorVersion < 7

 Display unsupported version message

Else

 Display snarky message about IE7

You'd think Apple would at least put in the one line of code to test for IE versions so they could say "IE 8 beta is not supported" rather than just show they don't bother updating their code after months of IE8 being available (It did the same thing with Beta 1).

RaaJ,

Sorry. Missed the point about the fruitheads putting it back in. I, personally, am not sure they ever actually took it out. I suspect they issues a press release with the intent and didn't bother actually doing it since image is everything.

Actually Mike, I don't think they need to state that beta software is not supported. Now full release software, well that's different.

My PACS browser Active x control still gets a pop up that only up to IE 5.5 or so is supported, but at least IE 6 and 7 works. In fact, Vista SP1, IE7 on this Mac Pro Tower gets images at lightning speeds. I just have the residential Comcast broadband which tops out at 8Mbps, and I can tell you that Bill G and Steve B would have a smile from ear to ear watching it.[ Barring any HIPPA violations for showing patients private records] Also, I have to go off topic and praise that default desktop background. The entire household admires it, even my father-in law, so that's ages 7 to 84. If you know the designer, tell we said kudos times six.

Why would Apple, put a line of code into MobileMe to support a beta MS browser?

I am going to bet that if IE8 will be fully supported by MobileMe soon after it is RTM.

Yes IE8 is a beta, and that is why it wont work with lots of stuff, to include Microsoft stuff.  MS browser, MS applications....should work there if anywhere.

Safari works with MobileMe.  Apple browser, Apple product.

DRWAM

It's not that they need to explicitly state that IE8 Beta 2 isn't supported (although, they realisically should), it's that they incorrectly identify it as IE7 even though it's browser ID says that it is IE8.

Every browser sends a "UserAgent" string to the server as part of its request.

IE 8 sends something like: User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 8.0; Windows NT 6.0; Trident/4.0; SLCC1; Media Center PC 5.0; .NET CLR 3.5.21022)

Notice that "MSIE 8.0" in there. That's not being processed correctly. My guess is they're testing for MajorVersion>6 as a test for IE 7 which is a beginner's mistake since you break when a new version comes out. Which happened to them.

(BTW: When IE 8 is running in compatibility view it sends MSIE 7.0 instead.)

Basically, where they've got

If IE, check MajorVersion

If MajorVersion < 7

Display unsupported version message

Else

Display snarky message about IE7

What they should at minimum have is:

If IE, check MajorVersion

If MajorVersion = 7

Display not fully supported message about IE7

Else

Display unsupported version message

(Although there are better ways than that)

Lindy

Supporting a beta is a good idea. It's how you work out the bugs so when the product ships you actually work. I know beta testing your products so they interoperate correctly at ship is a novel idea for Apple but I'd assumed you'd heard of it. And IE 8 has been out for developer testing for several months and I can guarantee that the Microsoft team that works with Apple has repeatedly pointed them to the "How to change your web page to work with IE 8" documents that are freely available both on the MSDN sites and on the partner sites.

Now, if your criterion is that Apple services need to only work with Apple products, fine. They'd be giving up most of the potential market but that would be their choice. But they don't do that, they advertise the product as supporting non-Apple products. And that means they actually have to do the work to get interoperability.

Having a broken UserAgent string routine is just flat out bush league stuff that's embarassing. It's the kind of mistake I'd expect from an intern at best and something that should never have actually made it out the door. That it did is an indictment of the quality of coding, testing and code review in the product.

Seriously, this is one step above misspelling your product's name on the web page.

A page that does an even worse job than MobileMe with IE8 is <www.macworld.com/news.html> (it's OK--you won't see much content unless you scroll, although the ads work).

My guess is that is the product of something like

IE? yes, 7? no, OK must be 6.

(And yes, they have been informed.)

Works fine in compatibility mode (but if you turn that on you'll see--shudder--Apple-related content).

As to MobileMe, even "whatever you're using we don't support it" would be better than claiming IE 8 is IE 7. I do disagree with Mike about one thing, though:  that's not the work of an intern--that much carelessness comes later in one's career--possibly just before what the British so nicely call a redundancy.

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johnbaxter

Or, as the IBM Jargon Dictionary used to call it, ROJ. (Retired On the Job)

Of course, it could still be the work of an intern. I never said an intern programmer. Maybe an intern in Marketing.

johnbaxter

I was able to see www.macworld.com/news.html fine in IE8b2 in IE8 mode. Both the list of headlines and when I clicked on one I was able to read the story of Apple being charged with abusing their monopoly by tying OS X to Apple hardware by Psystar.

Acording to the article (www.macworld.com/.../psystar.html), Apple has code in OS X that triggers a Kenel Panic (Apple's name for a BSOD) if it detects non-Apple hardware.

It's amusing that the defense raised in the article is that Apple is only a tiny player in the PC market so they should be allowed to be a 100% monopoly in the OS X compatible market without penalties for tying.

Looks like somebody needs some Apple CrashyTime Tea.

@Lindy,

If you want Microsoft to change behaviors, people have to do what government should be doing and thats compromise. Okay, so you don't like IE 6. Fine with me. You don't like I.E. 7. Curious. I.E. 8 that will fully complies with web standards and has stronger security than Mobile Me is not supported? Unreasonable.

If you want Microsoft to change its behaviors, then the otherside must bend and flex. How difficult would it to make it compatable with I.E. 8? Just enough to get function and give Windows users a better doorway to Mobile Me. Granted its a beta, but this beta will eventually be used by millions of Windows users who are Apple's top customers. Just on the fact the old rule of customer service, "The Customer is Always Right."

Apple has to realise that going against Windows users is not in the company's best interests. Now we as Windows users have the power to leverage Apple in ways that older or more extreme Mac users will dislike to the extreme. Thats what happens when you CEO puts the competition's OS on its own hardware and attempts to cater to those billions of users. I simply call it assimilation by attrition. Now Apple is under the gun, because they have to deal with the otherside of success called responsibility.

Interesting, Mike. For me about 5 minutes ago (show and tell) the Macworld news page was still garbled.  The list of times and dates was at the top left, in microtype overlapping vertically.  Then the headlines below.  Vista, SP1.  Sony laptop.  Intel 945GM graphics.

johnbaxter

Still working fine for me. Vista SP1, HP desktop, nVidia 8800GTS graphics, current drivers.

I'm guessing it may be a bug in the beta rather than a bad page. Probably worth reporting to Microsoft since it's not easily repeatable.

subzero

"Granted its a beta, but this beta will eventually be used by millions of Windows users who are Apple's top customers. "

If the IE8 beta follows the response of earlier IE betas then this beta will end up being used by more people than the entire installed base of Safari.

mikegalos,

Thank you for your check and recheck of the Macworld site (above).

I did the following:  download IE8 Beta2 again; download Registry Mechanic (8).

Remove IE 8 beta 2.

Install, register, and run Registry Mechanic (nearly 600 "repairs")

Install IE 8 beta 2.

Suitable shutdowns/restarts along the way, with a couple of extras tossed in.

The Macworld site now displays properly for me in IE 8 beta 2.

Still have the networking problem--will work on that tomorrow.

Now to do a nuke and install upgrade to Vista from XP on the alternate boot on my iMac.  (All of this has been on my laptop.)

We now return to a discussion of IE 8 beta 2, which I--Mac user since Jan 1984--like a lot.

Inline search!  Yay.