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Making "Skeletor Steve" look good today will require more botox than Cupertino can muster, methinks.

Somebody give that boy a cheeseburger.

If you are talking with the Zune team, tell them we want (or at least I want) Stereo Bluetooth, and the device will become a viable option for me.

The Zune isn't underrated...it ALWAYS gets high marks.

Maybe Seinfeld can move a few...it's just that, as you said, the market has matured.  I think they released it two years too late.

The Zune isn't underrated...it ALWAYS gets high marks.

Maybe Seinfeld can move a few...it's just that, as you said, the market has matured.  I think they released it two years too late.

I must admit I'm amused that the rumored change to the iPod Nano looks almost exactly like a flash Zune with rounded edges.

Either Apple decided that the Zune team got the form factor right and copied them or the people speculating about what their ideal Nano would look like decided it was a Zune.

Guess we'll know whether it was photocopiers or fantasies in a few hours.

Paul

I don't think you need to be too worried that it won't be all that exciting.

If it was nothing but iPod Socks, you'd still see 1,200 "redundant news stories" (to use the Dvorakism) about Apple's revolutionary new design for iPod Socks and at least 200 saying, "Why can't Microsoft be this innovative about Zune Socks?"

Ocean, fair enough.

The problem with the Zune, I think, is that while they do offer some unique features, they also lag in certain areas. To be a true alternative, they need to be able to offer iPod owners a reason to want to switch.

Paul,

But now that they've caught up in the only feature anyone really needs, and by that I mean, of course, support for Audible.com books, they're all set.

Audible.com - For all your listening needs.

:-)

"Maybe Seinfeld can move a few"

I would expect Zune to be mentioned in at least one of the ads. I think Zune is a "true alternative" to iPods at this point. The only problem is that people won't switch unless Microsoft offers something really remarkable or if Apple falters.

Umm Mike you realize that form factor of the 2nd generation of the iPod Nano right?

I'd like a zune, but i'm not in the US, so I can't have one.

Umm, Dude, you realize the generation 2 nano has a tiny landscape orientation screen and the Zune 4, 8 and 16 and the rumored Nano 4th Generation have a big, portrait oriented screen?

The other thing that almost everyone (anywhere seems to miss) is this isn't a two horse race right now. Its a race for 2nd place and there are plenty of others out there fighting for #2. This is not to say that MS can't advance their standing with the market simply they are not competing for iPod users at this time IMHO.

I'm also willing to bet by the time MS gets any traction in this market the DAP market will have morphed into a convergence device... hmmm there will be a market for DAP, but not like there is now.

Mike- I get that. I'm merely pointing out the form-factor.

Dude

That it's taller than it's wide is hardly "the form factor"

Seriously, look at a flash Zune, an iPod Nano Generation 1 or 2 and the rumored Generation 4.

Now, tell me the rumored Generation 4 doesn't look like a Zune with rounded right and left edges and a circle rather than a squircle control.

"And while Apple's penchant for secrecy may work wonders for product launches, it's not doing much to overcome investor fears about Jobs. If he looks OK today, at least one analyst has predicted that Apple's stock will skyrocket. Fair enough."

Gruber writes: "Spoiler: Jobs will be on stage, in his usual role. But he remains just as thin as he was in June. This isn’t some sort of state secret, though. Jobs is a common presence on the Apple campus. He eats in the cafeteria, he walks around between buildings. He’s not and has never been a recluse."

I suppose the analysts unwilling to do the necessary 30 seconds of research* won't recognize this fact, though, and will express shock at Jobs' appearance.

*For clarification: I'm NOT talking about Paul.

Zune platform is pretty underrated. It's sad. In some ways I think it is better than the iPod. I have an iPod Touch. I wish it did some of the things the Zune does. But as Paul pointed out, MS has not done enough to make me want to switch.

rjohn05

Remember, though, that the flash Zunes compete against the iPod Nano line and not the much more high-end Touch line.

The question isn't "Has Microsoft offered enough to get a Touch owner to switch to Zune" but "Has Microsoft offered enough to get a Nano owner to switch to Zune"

@Dude you will have to forgive Mike, he is the resident super poster and has to always be right.  Someone even posted a cartoon about that once.

When the Zune 4/8 gig models came out, almost every single review said that it took the iPOD 2gen form factor that Apple left behind for the Fat Nano/3g.

So yes the Zune copied the 2g Nano, and now Apple has gone back to it....with the bigger screen.

bettieblu

You see I have to post so often because people like you don't bother reading the posts and restate things that were already proven wrong.

@rjohn I have a iTouch as well, the radio feature would be cool I suppose, but then again I never listen to the radio to be honest.

The Zune has done nothing so far to make me want to switch.  I think that wireless sharing is worthless.  I never seen anyone with a Zune in the wild.  I know a guy that has a gen 1 and he shuts off the wifi because it eats up the battery.  The Zune needs way more 3rd party hardware support for me at least.

(sigh) Mike - this doesn't have to be a tit for tat match yet it seems you want to push it in that direction.

Does it look similar? Sure. I'm guessing here that given how egotistical Apple allegedly is; they weren't looking to Redmond for design influences.

I still maintain that MS is in a dog fight with the other 2nd place guys, they have to first offer a compelling reason to switch there before they can hope to unseat Apple. Its not like the other players are bad, Sansa and Sandisk for one make capable players.

You can argue semantics all you want, Zune as is rightly pointed out going to have to offer reasons to switch, as of right now there isn't any.  

Dude

(sigh) you think when somebody does nothing but essentially repost your earlier point and add a personal attack then I'm at fault for answering the personal attack?

(sigh) is right.

Proven wrong????  Not so Mike.

reviews.cnet.com/.../4505-6490_7-32638981.html

"That said, the Zune 4 and Zune 8 have a nice shape, which feels reminiscent of the first-generation iPod Nano."

www.electronista.com/.../zune-4-nearly-the-ipods-true-rival.html

"If there is a complaint about the design on a superficial level, it would simply be that Microsoft chose the safe route of imitating the iPod nano's design too conspicuously"

From the Winsupersite no less, which has pictures of the two stacked up.

www.winsupersite.com/.../zune2_03.asp

"Enter the Microsoft Zune 4 and Zune 8, which feature 4 GB and 8 GB of flash memory, respectively, and adopt the music-friendly form factor of the first and second generation iPod nano"

You really are a tool man.

If it's nothing special for Apple's announcement then why all the fuss about it? Honestly, I don't know, but I'll be listening.

If it doesn't live up to what Microsoft has done with the Zune, then we all need to give big props to Redmond for stealing the show.

As for Steve Jobs, as much as I admire and deeply respect him, he doesn't look to good. I hate to say it, but perhaps they should try CGI? Or you can bring him down to Texas and I'll take him to some KFC, Taco Bell, a few wing joints, and some ribs places. You know, get some weight on that man. He needs a Bacon Ultimate Cheeseburger like I need a lotto hit in the Mega Millions.

Hate to say it, but I hope Jobs is grooming a successor. Kudos for Bill for picking Ray Ozzie.

>>Either Apple decided that the Zune team got the form factor right and copied them<<

Pretty doubtful it was that black and white.

It may just be that vertical is the way to go...just like using a mouse is the way to interact with the UI.  

>>If it doesn't live up to what Microsoft has done with the Zune, then we all need to give big props to Redmond for stealing the show.<<

Except MS released early when their hand was forced.  Next week was the selected release date.

Can't give them props for that.

mike:

"You see I have to post so often because people like you don't bother reading the posts and restate things that were already proven wrong."

No.

You have to post so often because you are a pompous jackass who *has* to be right every single time.

Pingback from  About the Zune update, today&#39;s Apple news

Why, when someone isn't fat, are they branded as being sick?

I mean seriously? Why?

Not everyone eats KFC, Taco Bell, wings (although they are tasty with a pitcher of beer), and ribs.

RunTimeError

No, I'm a pompous jackass who *is* right every single time.

If MS starts offering Zune and its subscription services in a more international fashion, I think they'd be able to put a fight for a solid second position in market.

I live in Argentina, an as far as I see, VERY FEW people buy a branded PMP. They just need it to play music, be able to load it as a pen drive, and let'em to choose their music sources on their own. The usual suspects are CROWN 512mb to 2GB keychain players that also record audio, have FM, a 3 line monochrome LCD. That's it. It also enables them to carry around their files, and retrieve them easily w/o using any third party software (the good ol' Mass Storage USB Device)

There's a lot more demand for Mobile Phone WITH media capabilities. I think it's time for a Zune Phone, already folks! A ZPhone for the masses, for those that don't need/want a powerhouse but a nicely designed handset, a responsive interface, and a chance to be Social with the most Social device of the moment. You could use BT to beam music, and that would be all...

Ah... to dream, to dream...

Another case in point

Two years ago Apple laughed a Microsoft's choice of brown for the Zune 30.

Today, Steve Jobs is wearing a brown mock turtleneck. Clearly Apple figured out two years late that brown is the new black.

"I hate to say it, but perhaps they should try CGI?"

Or they could just replace him with a robot....that is, if he weren't one already.

Mike,

I wonder why Steve Jobs would even go after the Zune.

I think he's just obsessed with Microsoft, in spite of all the success Apple has had.

FWIW, to date, I haven't seen a single snarky remark about the iPod from anyone in the Zune team.

"Why, when someone isn't fat, are they branded as being sick?"

Isn't obsession a kind of sickness?

"Today, Steve Jobs is wearing a brown mock turtleneck. Clearly Apple figured out two years late that brown is the new black."

What ever happened to the translucent 2-toned colour schemes of the Zune anyway?  I kind of liked that idea.

And yes, mike.  I pointed out when the Zune 1.0 came out, that brown was (and still is) a popular colour among the "GAP generation".  Fashion isn't always so black and white, you know.

"Today, Steve Jobs is wearing a brown mock turtleneck."

What are you basing that on? The photos from the feed at engadget? By that reckoning, he has a pink face, too, and Phil Schiller is wearing orange makeup. It's black, man. Once again, you're wrong (or as Waethorn would say, "WRONG!!!! LIAR!!!!)..

"And yes, mike.  I pointed out when the Zune 1.0 came out, that brown was (and still is) a popular colour among the "GAP generation"."

Not so popular in Canada. Makes you look like a moose. Then Canadian men start chasing you.

"I wonder why Steve Jobs would even go after the Zune.

I think he's just obsessed with Microsoft, in spite of all the success Apple has had.

FWIW, to date, I haven't seen a single snarky remark about the iPod from anyone in the Zune team. "

I wonder the same thing too.  Yet, here is Steve today:

"they announce products before they want them to... it's funny."

And once in a blue moon I agree with lotsa, and he is right on with the Skeletor remark.  Yeah, this dude is looking quite frail.  I saw a crack that said "thinnest Steve ever!"

"I wonder why Steve Jobs would even go after the Zune."

Citation, please? Except for the mention of Microsoft's miniscule market share, there hasn't been any Zune-baiting. Even Apple's ads NEVER mention the Zune.

@Mike

"Another case in point

Two years ago Apple laughed a Microsoft's choice of brown for the Zune 30.

Today, Steve Jobs is wearing a brown mock turtleneck. Clearly Apple figured out two years late that brown is the new black."

The random similarity of a mock turtleneck 2 years later than the yecky brown color of the original Zune is----now what was that called, oh yah, a coincidence. The color "brown" occurs in many places at many times, signifying...... nothing.

As for colors, the new Nano colors sure don't look much like brown to me. But, of course, UPS loves brown, again signifying nothing at all.....

lotsa

"Makes you look like a moose. Then Canadian men start chasing you."

Better than in Alaska where the Governor tries to shoot you.

Worst

iPod launch

Ever

lotsa, here:

www.google.com/search

"...than the yecky brown color of the original Zune is..."

The "yecky" brown is pretty popular at stores like Lucky and Banana Republic FYI. Also, MS was mocked for having come out with a consumer electronics device in brown. Dare anyone mock Apple for rainbow colors? Orange? No way.

"Worst

iPod launch

Ever"

Hey Mike I can write your comments if you want?  You wont even have to send me the content, your so predictable.

Is there anything you like about Apple?  I mean I seen enough of your posts (who has not) and I don't remember once you giving them any credit, for anything.

What exactly was so bad about it?

It's past time for this thread to be locked.

Yeah what is with the thread locking?

bettieblue

Let's summarize the "New" events from the once-a-year update on the most popular music player in the world.

Hard drive players: Biggest model dropped, Single model now at 120GB but no new features

Flash players: Last year's "fat" design rolled back to vertical, screen updated to match Zune, rounded edges, "Shake to Shuffle", "Genius" recomendations (with no way to play except by buying unlike Zune Pass), new colors

Touch line: rounded corners, "Shake to Shuffle", "Genius" recomendations (with no way to play except by buying unlike Zune Pass), bundled Nike software that does nothing unless you buy the Nike hardware. Retargeting Touch as a portable game device with music player and competitor to PSP

Shuffle: no change

Accessories: New earbuds that they "finally got it right" on (unlike all the previous ones that were "awesome" but now are "not right")

Desktop Software: Updated selection UI to optionally look less like a spreadsheet (but still not up to last year's Zune desktop software)

iPhone 2.1 update: improves but doesn't fix call drop problems, improves but doesn't fix call quality, fixes some app crashes, improves sync time.

Did I miss something?

Is there something there that's actually worth noting?

@Mike

"Worst

iPod launch

Ever"

Since this crowd so loves "marketshare", let's all come back here in January and see how the Worst. Ipod lauch. Ever. does for Christmas sales. Hmm?

@mikegalos: Thanks. We can now officially apply the "WinJihadist" label to you as well as Waethorn.

Oops. Missed one.

Added actual volume control to Touch since users like being able to change the volume without running into lamp posts while jogging using Nike+

Nice summary, Mike. Expect the tech crowd to be wowed by everything demonstrated today even though it was pretty underwhelming. BTW, this is the day that Paul usually turns into an Apple fan.

lotsa

Thank you. Glad I got it back.

I was afraid that after getting awarded the title for saying the iPhone had problems with dropped calls, call quality, app crashes and sync speed that I'd have lost my rights to the title after Apple said they were issuing a patch to fix those problems that the iCabal insisted didn't exist.

I feel much better now.

>>BTW, this is the day that Paul usually turns into an Apple fan<<

By that measure he's a Google fan too.  Just stop it, eh?

Heres a quote:

>>Pictures of Apple CEO Steve Jobs, whose health has been much in question lately, show him looking imperiously slim, not dangerously frail. <<

valleywag.com/.../steve-jobs-looks-okay-at-ipod-event

Shark

I suspect that after today's non-event even Leo Laporte isn't going to be gushing. (Goatberg, maybe)

Ocean

Here's a tip. Quoting ValleyWag is the equivalent of quoting the Star or the Sun. It's proudly a tabloid gossip rag.

(Note: Not the equivalent of the National Enquirer, they actually tend toward getting stuff sensational but right)

Oops again. Forgot to include that Touch has a tiny speaker added that Steve Jobs said was only for "casual listening" (More likely it's for game sound) and Nano added a voice recorder. (actually a possibly useful feature)

>> today's non-event<<

What is the difference between an 'event' and a 'non-event'?

Your bar seems like it is set too high.  But maybe they won't sell this fall and winter and we'll see that you're right.  I doubt it.

Here are the new webcams and mice MS released.  Perhaps that will be more to your liking.

news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10036590-1.html

news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10036423-1.html

Mike...re: Valleywag

Lighten up,  Levity is our common friend.

>>that Touch has a tiny speaker added that Steve Jobs said was only for "casual listening"<<

I would think it would be the same as the one in the iPhone.  Not sure what the reviews said about that one.

Ocean

I like ValleyWag but I wouldn't quote them.

Re: the Apple event - About what I expected.  All the run-up to this event had led one not to expect anything world-changing.  But, a solid fall line-up, all in all.

The only real news was re-aligning the price/value structure:

- Nonos double the memory for the same price.

- Touch 8Gig goes from 299 to 229.  Touch 16Gig goes from 399 to 299.  Touch 32Gig at $399 (as "real" ganes appear for this platform, this may become a more compeling product.  It really doea a lot)

- Classic goes from 80 to 120 gig for the same price, 160 gig model dropped

Oh, and NBC is back.  This is a big deal for many.

Ocean

When you roll out your rock star CEO only 3 times a year and when one of those is when you roll out the only revisions you make that year to your only product line that's an industry sales leader, you've kind of set the bar pretty high.

When you use that hour to include things like "headphones that finally don't suck" and "let's bring Phil up here to play some games as filler" and "hey, we're issuing a patch on Friday to fix some of the bugs in our halo product" you've pretty much missed not only that high bar, but you've missed jumping over a champion limbo player's bar.

Oh dear.  I really must read these things before I hit "Add."  Apologies for the egregious typos in previous post.  I'm really not illiterate, I swear. Senile, perhaps...

"Not so popular in Canada. Makes you look like a moose. Then Canadian men start chasing you."

"WRONG!!!  LIAR!!!"

You're wrong there.  When you wear red lumberjack plaid (known in most circles as a "skid jacket"), you fit in with the bears.  :P

vids.myspace.com/index.cfm

(NSFW, but funny)

"Dare anyone mock Apple for rainbow colors?"

Um....

>>When you roll out your rock star CEO only 3 times a year and when one of those is when you roll out the only revisions you make that year to your only product line that's an industry sales leader, you've kind of set the bar pretty high.<<

I think you're the only one thinking this way.  Every refresh can't be a world-changer (to steal WebGuys's phrase).  

mikegalos@msn.com  said:

Dude

(sigh) you think when somebody does nothing but essentially repost your earlier point and add a personal attack then I'm at fault for answering the personal attack?

(sigh) is right.

***********************************

Personal Attack? Someone is a bit touchy methinks. You might want to switch to decaf in the afternoon.

***********************************

chuckb84  said:

@Mike

"Worst

iPod launch

Ever"

Since this crowd so loves "marketshare", let's all come back here in January and see how the Worst. Ipod lauch. Ever. does for Christmas sales. Hmm

***********************************

C'mon now Chuck no sense making comments like that! :) (sarcasm) and for the record I can give a crap about market share in anything...

Actually, all the "Apple is the most wonderful company in the history of the world and we just love them ever so much" type answering only with market share really does point out that not only is the iPod division just phoning it in these days but it's OK with them.

1. Microsoft would have been mocked for features like shake to shuffle and some of the Nano colors. Apple will not only get away with it, a lot of analysts will tout the shake to shuffle feature as groundbreaking.

2. It's not that Microsoft does not have a compelling set of features to make people want to switch. It's the coolness factor. It's the marketing. Microsoft has failed at its marketing attempts. Apple is able to make people want stuff that they don't really need. Of course, the so called analysts are very helpful in this regard.

3. Ocean, even when you're not posting links to irrelevant articles, you're still as annoying as ever. It looks like you're only objective here is to negate anything positive that is said about Microsoft or anything negative that's said about its competitors.

BTW, yes, Paul is a Google fan. He likes their products.

Shark

I'm actually curious about the "shake to shuffle" feature and how easy they make turning it off. This does NOT seem like the right feature to match with the Nike+ jogger's app...

(or a really amusing feature to turn on for that unsuspecting jogger friend)

"1. Microsoft would have been mocked for features like shake to shuffle and some of the Nano colors. Apple will not only get away with it, a lot of analysts will tout the shake to shuffle feature as groundbreaking."

I'm interested to see if Apple's biggest fan journalists are going to label it a "gimmick" or point out that a similar thing already exist on other mp3 players, as they would have done if this was a non-Apple device we were talking about.

But yeah, part of Apple's sales effort is dependent on a biased, fawning tech media, so it should be a real hoot to see them whore themselves to Xanadu for Apple on this one.

Btw the fights between Apple fans have already broken out on various messageboards, and boy are they going at each other. When their expectations aren't met, they do turn on each other big time.

"I'm actually curious about the "shake to shuffle" feature and how easy they make turning it off."

Seriously though.  This should be another one of those "Who designed this crap?" articles.

Microsoft has lured users away from the illegal "Music is free, and comes from the Internet" mindset and adapted it into a complex social networking thing similar to the "MyFace" with connections to their store (unfortunately, only in the US though).  That takes some real thinking.

@sharky - "Microsoft would have been mocked for features like shake to shuffle and some of the Nano colors. Apple will not only get away with it, a lot of analysts will tout the shake to shuffle feature as groundbreaking."

You are probably right about MS being mocked for that and Apple being championed for it...that is until a teenaged driver kills somebody while shuffling songs or playing games on their iPod while driving. Texting while driving is bad....this could become worse. And if you think they won't do it...you don't have teenagers.

--tayme

I have no doubt you can shut it off the shake to shuffle, in the settings.  The lock button probably shuts it off while its locked, so start your play list, lock the device, run.  Pretty much what I do when I jog with my current Nano.

The shake to shuffle is not a feature meant to make someone switch, but more to show off of the accelerometer technology, and use it to add small features.  As in "we have this accelerometer technology that can do this, this, and this, our competitors dont".  With exploit of this feature you widen the gap.

Tayme LOL, if they were going to kill someone while playing games, the DS would have done it by now.  Its only the best selling game console ever.

>>As in "we have this accelerometer technology that can do this, this, and this, our competitors dont".  With exploit of this feature you widen the gap.<<

Kinda like the FM radio and the Wireless on the Zune...

>>It looks like you're only objective here is to negate anything positive that is said about Microsoft or anything negative that's said about its competitors.

<<

I think we'd all be better off talking tech than about other posters.  

@bettieblu - I wonder if it has already happenned on a DS???

Next question, does the iPhone include the shake to shuffle/game control like the iPod Touch/Nano (I am not sure which includes it and which don't, so I could be wrong)? If so, that means that they will have it out while driving anyway...why not play a few games between text messages?

--tayme

I do wonder if there is some other reason for the comment locking here.  Anyone hear anything from Paul about this?

Although, remember that Paul is in Redmond today as he stated earlier.

Now how do I know this was an underwhelming event?  Besides the fact you need the CEO up in front of a stage telling you about bug fixes, the stock is currently down almost 4% with only a few minutes before the buzzer left.

>>I wonder if it has already happenned on a DS???

<<

Probably.

www.joystiq.com/.../gaming-while-driving-laws-coming-soon

Apple relying on marketing rather than product?

How could you say that?

The iPod Touch is "the funnest iPod ever!"

The new iPod Nanos are "nano-chromatic!"

Isn't that all you need to know?

Favorite part of today's Apple event: "Sandisk has 8.6%, Microsoft has 2.6%, and “Other” is 15.4%. Not too bad, Microsoft."

Seriously, people who think Apple can market their way out of a paper bag haven't been around the company very long.  Their marketing is pretty pathetic.  If their products weren't so great, they'd have been dead a decade ago.  And people who don't understand that their products are great are probably the type who compare products on a checklist or a feature spec rather than how well it fits into their lives.

>>Seriously, people who think Apple can market their way out of a paper bag haven't been around the company very long.  Their marketing is pretty pathetic. <<

Tell us why you think so, please.

dipsh

Actually it came up while I was briefly talking to Paul at the conference yesterday but I'd rather not discuss a private conversation here.

I'll leave it up to Paul to decide what he wants to say about how he runs his board if anything.

Well, I'm installing the new iTunes 8. I wonder what else it'll decide to install for me. After all, iTunes 7 decided that I needed the MobileMe control panel.

If you don't hear back soon, I'll be restoring my computer from my handy Windows Home Server.

"If their products weren't so great, they'd have been dead a decade ago. "

What's funny is they were dead a decade ago. :-)

There was a rumor that a iTunes subscription of some sort was in the works.  Interesting that that didn't come to be.

>>Well, I'm installing the new iTunes 8. <<

Mike, if you're a heavy user of iTunes, I'd wait a day or two or three to make sure there are no bugs lurkings in there.  Its happened before.  I always wait...

"if they were going to kill someone while playing games, the DS would have done it by now."

In that context, the Wiimote would be a better fit.

With that in mind, I can imagine someone shaking it, having it slip out of their hand, and knocking someone in the head with it, leading to a lawsuit against Apple.

>:)

Ocean

But it's an Apple product so it'll "just work"

Right?

@Ocean - I have to admit...I was wrong on the ITMS subscription...good thing I didn't bet anybody on it!!!

--tayme

Ocean

As for the iTunes subscription model, that's something that's rumored every year and never shows up. Kind of like the tablet Mac and the Yellow Submarine iPod with the full Beatles collection bundled.

So far it's an amazingly long install that's required two separate UAC security approvals and a shutdown of Outlook...

>>But it's an Apple product so it'll "just work"

Right?<<

An Apple 'software' product does not always 'just work'. Not in my experience.

Well, the install did eventually finish and my computer is still running.

What was it that was said about me setting too high a bar?

I've never understood the need for a tablet (my boss loves his...but it's just another interface to me and I'm already comfortable with the mouse and keyboard) nor for the 'Artist Branded' iPods (maybe the color...but wouldn't the target audience already have copies of the music it comes pre-loaded with?)

What do you think of it?  Based on your and others experience, I may jump in.  I want to check out the 'Genius' feature.  I like Pandora and want to see how well Apple copied it...

So far not that different. The new views are similar to the Zune equivalents. I haven't turned on "Genius" yet.

@mike - "Actually it came up while I was briefly talking to Paul at the conference yesterday but I'd rather not discuss a private conversation here. "

Then why even mention it? I get the feeling that you are the type of person who loves to name drop to make themself feel important. I know a lot of those types...and they usually irritate me.

--tayme

tayme

Three reasons

1) To let people know that it was something Paul was both aware of and felt important enough to discuss in a short conversation

2) Because it was explicitly asked and I had some (if limited) information

3) To provide an extra message to respond to so that Paul would be more likely to see it come up in a totally unrelated series of posts.

As for the rest, let's just say I get a feeling about the type of person you are as well but I'll be polite and keep my feelings private.

>> >>Seriously, people who think Apple can market their way out of a paper bag haven't been around the company very long.  Their marketing is pretty pathetic. <<

Tell us why you think so, please.<<

Their advertising has always been iconic but alienating.  It's been Chiat/Day most of the time since the legendary 1984 commercial.  Did that help them win with MacOS?  No, it wasn't until Macs got Windows compatibility, matched Wintel hardware, and integrated better into people's lives.  Do you feel more affinity for Justin Long (I'm a Mac) or John Hodgeman (I'm a PC) in their ads?  I've been using Macs since 1988 and I like Hodgeman better.

On the other hand, the iPod has always been about integrating into people's lives.  Look at Nike+, games, quick ripping, easy interfaces and sync up software, etc.  It is technically no better than the Zune (well, the Touch and iPhone are, but if you compare equal offerings).  It just does a simple thing very well in an unobtrusive way, and it sells.

>>Their advertising has always been iconic but alienating.  It's been Chiat/Day most of the time since the legendary 1984 commercial.  Did that help them win with MacOS?  No, it wasn't until Macs got Windows compatibility, matched Wintel hardware, and integrated better into people's lives. <<

Well, we have to define 'win'.  If 'win' is overthrow MS...it just ain't gonna happen.  But if 'win' = get core businesses out of the red and into the black, you'd have to say that their marketing was pretty successful.

Remember:  they've had a awfully uphill battle for years just getting to where they are now....

@Mike

"Actually, all the "Apple is the most wonderful company in the history of the world and we just love them ever so much" type answering only with market share really does point out that not only is the iPod division just phoning it in these days but it's OK with them."

Actually, I like Macs a lot, feel sort of so-so about Apple. OTOH, I detest Microsoft with a burning passion. It's a rational passion, based entirely on their monopolistic practices, and their chair-throwing CEO who personifies all that is wrong with that outfit. On top of that, they do make, as SJ memorably said, really 3rd rate products. Even then, I would never care, except that they are so extremely determined to inflict it on all of us.

In truth, I don't give a crap about Marketshare, because I use what's best, not what's most popular (41c, Mac, all the same...)but it amuses me that on the desktop computing issue, the Windows advocates love to talk about it, but on the music side-----not so much.

The iPod announcements today? Not too thrilling? Zune 3? Not too thrilling. Apple mainly seems to be morphing the iPod line into the iPhone, which does everything, some of it not so well so far, and the rest of the line which will be a PDA/gaming/mp3 player.

Two other things: I stand by the Christmas sales comment. Apple will clean up with this new line of iPods, not as iPods, but as mobile gaming systems.

And, yes, "shake to shuffle" seems really stupid to me. Like multitouch, accelerometers are a new UI feature and they're still figuring out how to use them. Some of the ideas are stupid, like that one.

chuckb

You're missing the difference in discussion of marketshare.

When desktop marketshare comes up here it's in response to statements that try to show how much Mac has grown and how important OS X is in the world. You don't see Zune fans saying "Zune is on its way to eating Apple's lunch" they way you see Mac fans going on about OS X.

When iPod share comes up its in response to statements like yours about how it's OK that Apple doesn't innovate because they'll sell the most anyway. And, again, you don't see Windows fans saying that Microsoft can coast because they own the desktop no matter what.

See the difference?

And, tying in an older discussion...

For all the Apple fans who've said today, "It's OK that Apple didn't really announce anything significant this year. iPod will still dominate sales no matter what.", a question:

Can you think of a better definition of monopoly power than that?

Mike is Paul I think?

That is why he knows why Paul is locking threads.  I thinks it just makes it look like he wants to control what is on this site, which is fine by me its his site, but why have a comment section at all?  To get only the responses he likes?

Compared to most comment sections the posts on this site are E for everyone.  Very mild, so it cant people attacking each other?

@sankass

" Do you feel more affinity for Justin Long (I'm a Mac) or John Hodgeman (I'm a PC) in their ads?  I've been using Macs since 1988 and I like Hodgeman better."

Everyone likes Hodgeman. That's the whole idea!

bettieblu

Nope

Some differences...

Paul is almost exactly 10 years younger than me.

I've never been to Ireland

I have a beard

Seriously, do you think Paul interrupts his time in meetings at Microsoft this week to monitor the chit chat on the comments and lock down threads he doesn' t like?

MaryW

Precisely why the ads work. You associate with Hodgeman and thus associate with every time he loses thus internalizing the sense of wanting to not be a loser by buying a Mac. Note that Long's character is always sympathetic toward Hodgeman's plight.

No he is busy today so this one has not gotten locked:)

The ads work because they're negative. It's like watching skits on SNL or Mad TV.

Even McCain's celebrity ad worked the same way - "Don't vote for Obama because he's a celebrity."

Has anyone seen the latest ad on cnn.com and other sites? It's as negative as an ad can get.

By the way, I remember people at Gizmodo or Engadget (don't remember which faux news site) were pissed off with the Mad TV skit about Steve Jobs.

As a Sansa Rhapsody player users, I am continually amazed at all of the attention put on these iPods. No question the ecosystem puts the iPods way out in front of the others. However, iPods are built for people who listen to the same ol' stuff, day in...day out.

I got a 4GB Sansa Rhapsody player 15 months ago and haven't been the least bit interested in any iPods or Zunes. The interface is great and the selection of songs at Rhaposody is incredible. I've never been happier with my music setup than I am now. Of course, if there were an ecosystem, it would make this thing the clear 10-count winner.

Going negative also gets people talking about the ads. The media loves Apple so they got away with it, but MS would have been torn apart for running those ads. I do think MS should go negative with Zune. Yes, it won't win them any friends, but at least people will know about the product.

" I detest Microsoft with a burning passion. It's a rational passion, based entirely on their monopolistic practices, and their chair-throwing CEO who personifies all that is wrong with that outfit. On top of that, they do make, as SJ memorably said, really 3rd rate products. Even then, I would never care, except that they are so extremely determined to inflict it on all of us."

Yeah. I wouldn't have bought a PC if Ballmer hadn't tied me to a chair and threatened to do the "monkey dance". He also spilled all of the Apple kool-aid that I had. That ***.

"I've "used" a Zune about as much as Wae has "used" an iPod"

The argument was never about how much I used an iPod....it was about how much I've used iTunes.  I've held several iPods in my hand (including a touch, and an iPhone 3G).  The hardware was nothing special.  The software OTOH is a joke.  The biggest joke that Apple ever foisted on Windows users (you know, aside from Safari, MobileMe, Bonjour, Quicktime, as well as that whole carpet-bombing issue).

Dmcall "However, iPods are built for people who listen to the same ol' stuff, day in...day out."

I was not aware that all music in mp3 format could not play on an iPod????  I can only imagine what I have been missing:)

I suggest that you guys enjoy the bickering (on this subject) while you can, but I think that we have just reached a turning point in the PMP business. There is little to no growth left in it. Smart/feature/music phones have taken it over.

There just isn't anything to get excited about anymore, and I expect the tech press to be pointing that out over the next few days. And no, I don't think they will be raving about Apple's new line up. It was a solid update with nothing earth shattering. More storage, cheaper prices, some useful new features ... and some just for the sake of it.

It's no surprise that the Nano got the bulk of the changes. I suspect that that's the model most at risk. Cheaper little clip-on Shuffles are great for exercising and as gifts. Large storage hard drive sales are dwindling but there will always be the hard core types that insist that they need 30,000 tracks at all times ...... plus phones don't compete in the GB department. The iPod touch is a mini hand held computer and .... Mike, that gaming "filler" from Schiller will probably sell 100K units on it's own.

You can add video, wifi, colors and 'shake to shuffle' but the traditional PMP is just the modern version of the Walkman. You take your media with you. When your phone can do all the same things .... and you never leave home without it.... why pay $199.00 for something else?

All of the above is not good news for the Zune. Not because of the iPod (alone) but because of Nokia, Sony Eriksson and the rest. Zune may grab some more share but it's a dwindling market. It was just a little late to the party. I don't want to be all doom and gloom. :) Zune Phone and/or a Zune "touch" coupled with the whole  'social' thing might be a way to increase interest in the product.

>>It was a solid update with nothing earth shattering. More storage, cheaper prices, some useful new features ... and some just for the sake of it<<

So if it was a solid update, why is Apple being criticized for doing it.  What more should/could they have done?

Mary

As I said above as one of the items worth mentioning from the hour: "Retargeting Touch as a portable game device with music player and competitor to PSP"

Note also that Microsoft has put Media Player in every Windows Mobile device and sync between Media Player on the desktop and Media Player on the phone has been a key feature as well. The open music player design is a different ecosystem from the tight channel model of iPod and Zune but if the market moves back that way, Microsoft's ahead of the game. (And some of them support A2DP stereo Bluetooth playback)

Back to the Zune.

90% of those who bought one are satisfied with it.

MS thinks they can still sell them grow the PMP catagory.

Robbie Bach says:  >>software and services are what's going to be ultimately the differentiator in this space. <<

blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/.../148313.asp

>>Microsoft has put Media Player in every Windows Mobile device and sync between Media Player on the desktop and Media Player on the phone has been a key feature as well. <<

Was it you that used the word monopoly earlier?  I can't remember...  :)

Ocean

"solid update" is damning with faint praise.

Remember that, unlike Zune which updates software twice a year, this is it for iPod innovations until likely September 8, 2009. If the products were a little long in the tooth this year (and the non-Touch models really haven't gotten much in a while) imagine how dated they'll seem a year from now.

What more could they have done? Well, take a look at the innovations that came out of the Zune team this week without even a change in the hardware. Now, compare "Buy from FM" with "Shake to shuffle". Compare "Zune Card Sharing" with "Thinnest nano ever (2/100ths of an inch thinner than last year!)". Compare "Channels" with "nano-chromatic".

Ocean

Monopolies are per market. Are you suggesting that Microsoft is the monopoly player in digital media players? The biggest player laughed at Microsoft's market share this morning in his annual "State of the iPod" speech.

Sure, Apple might abuse their monopoly power in music sales to block Microsoft from syncing things bought through iTunes from seamlessly working with other companies' devices but we may see the courts give relief to those Apple has harmed or Apple might decide to play nicely with 3rd parties for once to avoid a maintenance of monopoly by illegal practices charge.

Buy from FM is unique, but it isn't a big innovation.   It's a DAP/PMP version of a feature that Pandora has.

When you hear a song you like, you can click to download it from iTunes or Amazon.  You can bookmark it to do later.  

Like I said, it's nice and unique, but not a worldbeater.  

Can you buy from anyone, or just the Zune music store?

You can stop tossing that bait out there.

According to one definition:

>> a monopoly exists when a specific individual or enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it<<

Apple does not have a monopoly over the digital music market.  You can get the same songs and albums with very few exceptions (that exist in all the stores) from Amazon and others.  Furthur, you are not limited to Apple products if you want a DAP/PMP.

Ocean

Identifying a song over FM by subcarrier encoding then transferring that song to a purchase list (or download list for ZunePass subscribers) is not only unique, it's a huge innovation linking two different distribution media seamlessly and answering a real consumer desire unlike it's nano-chromatic!

As for the closed (single store) vs open (multiple store) architecture, Microsoft supports both models. Zune is closed (for people who like a simple, totally integrated model - like iPod/iTunes) and the "Certified for Windows Vista" media program is open (for people who like to choose their players and stores separately but still want it to work - unlike any Apple offerings). What was your point?

>>block Microsoft from syncing things bought through iTunes from seamlessly working with other companies' devices<<

DRM free on some, legally bound for the rest.  Nothing Apple can do there...

In France:

>>On June 28, 2004, VirginMega filed a complaint with the French Competition Council against Apple regarding its refusal to license Fairplay to VirginMega for use in their own online music commerce store. The French Conseil de la Concurrence rejected the complaint over accused anti-competitive behavior.[5] The Conseil ruled against the notion that FairPlay was an "essential facility" for three distinct reasons: 1) Playing purchased music on portable players was a small part of the market; 2) CD Burning provides an adequate work-around to get purchased music from other vendors onto an iPod; and 3) There is sufficient availability of portable players that support Microsoft's WMA DRM as a viable alternative and choice for consumers.[6]<<

Ocean

So, I can buy locked media on the iTunes store and play it on my Zune or my Windows Mobile phone or my iRiver? I can use iTunes as a podcatcher and have it sync to my Windows Mobile phone? How about to a Nokia?

On your last point, you honestly think somebody's not a monopoly if any competitor exists? Well, call the DOJ and tell them. That's be big news.

No...my question is:  When I hear a song on my FM radio on my Zune and I want to buy it, does it have to be bought from the Zune Music store, or do I have my choice of companies (like Amazon.com) that I can purchase it from?

>>So, I can buy locked media on the iTunes store and play it on my Zune or my Windows Mobile phone or my iRiver?<<

Only if you burn a CD and then rip it back.  But why would you want to do that?  Just buy it in the format that fits your player from another store.

>>I can use iTunes as a podcatcher and have it sync to my Windows Mobile phone?<<

Yes.  Just have WiMP monitor the podcast directory under the iTunes Music Library folder.  Then...sync.  

Having a monopoly isn't illegal.  Using it anticompetively is.  

Ocean

"Nothing Apple can do there..."

Aww, poor Apple. Unable to work with the ActiveSync API to let iTunes work with non-iPod devices. Oh. Wait. They not only know how to do it (It's a publicly available API) but they even have an ActiveSync license. And, gee, it'd be hard for them to write a codec for their proprietary wrapper. Yeah. Nothing they can do.

>>"Nothing Apple can do there..."<<

You picked the wrong part of the post to reply to, and you replied to it out of context.

Here's the important part:

>>legally bound for the rest.  Nothing Apple can do there...<<

Apple has to be released by the folks it licenses the music from the sell it DRM-free.  If they won't...theres nothing Apple can do about it.

Ocean,

The issue isn't that there aren't ways to get around Apple's proprietary lock in (that is considered anticompetitive behavior if done by a monopoly).  The issue is that you shouldn't have to.

You see, it's anticompetitive to make an essential part of one product that's dominent in a market (say, iTunes) locked in so that it's not able to be used by other parties. If there were a ruling, Apple would likely be ordered to make the APIs available to let users of other players access iTunes store content and users of the iPods use any store they choose.

Ocean.

Nothing says that the only way to play Apple DRM products on other brand players is by breaking the DRM. The license required that the DRM be enforced not that it be enforced only on Apple products.

>>it's anticompetitive to make an essential part of one product that's dominent in a market (say, iTunes) locked in so that it's not able to be used by other parties. <<

You're covering up the key part here:  Music is the element for sale.  There is no restraint on where you can buy it and where you can play it.

Now what about my other question:  Does the Zune "Tag and Buy from FM" feature work with multiple stores, or just the Zune music store?

I knew I'd heard of tagging and buying before:

>>Apple has offered a similar feature through HD radios, allowing users to tag songs from bookshelf systems like the Polk Audio I-Sonic Entertainment System 2 I reviewed for Gadget Lab last month. <<

>>Two new receivers/iPod docks allow users to tag any song they hear on HD Radio for later purchase from the iTunes music store: the Polk Audio I-Sonic Entertainment System 2 (pictured to the right), and the JBL iHD, a more compact system.

These units represent the debut of a new feature from Apple called iTunes Tagging.  Here's how it works: HD Radio stations send song information along with their signal; when the user hits the tag button, that information gets stored on any iPod in the receiver's iPod dock.  The next time the iPod is synced with the user's iTunes collection, the tagged songs show up for purchase within iTunes.<<

blog.wired.com/.../zunes-buy-from.html

blog.wired.com/.../hd-radio-ipod-d.html

Ocean

You do not buy music. You buy limited rights to use music files.

As for the Zune buy from FM question you keep asking, I already answered it.

>>The license required that the DRM be enforced not that it be enforced only on Apple products. <<

Jobs himself answers:

>>Apple has concluded that if it licenses FairPlay to others, it can no longer guarantee to protect the music it licenses from the big four music companies. Perhaps this same conclusion contributed to Microsoft’s recent decision to switch their emphasis from an “open” model of licensing their DRM to others to a “closed” model of offering a proprietary music store, proprietary jukebox software and proprietary players. <<

Ocean

While the HD Radio tagging is a subset of what Zune offers it's tied to being at home, at your base station that you paid extra for and only works with HD radio.

That kind of misses the whole point of a portable music player, doesn't it?

>>As for the Zune buy from FM question you keep asking, I already answered it. <<

I didn't see it.  Please answer it again, and a simple yes, it does or no, it doesn't will suffice:

>>Does the Zune "Tag and Buy from FM" feature work with multiple stores, that it stores other than the Zune Marketplace.<<

Ocean

"Apple has concluded that if it licenses FairPlay to others, it can no longer guarantee to protect the music it licenses from the big four music companies."

In other words, they won't do it. Not, they can't, they don't want to bother because it's against their financial interests. If it were technically impossible nobody else would be able to including Microsoft who was quite able to do it by Jobs own admission. After all, how could Microsoft be "changing their emphasis" away from something that wasn't possible?

Ocean

Pasting for the search impaired

As for the closed (single store) vs open (multiple store) architecture, Microsoft supports both models. Zune is closed (for people who like a simple, totally integrated model - like iPod/iTunes) and the "Certified for Windows Vista" media program is open (for people who like to choose their players and stores separately but still want it to work - unlike any Apple offerings). What was your point?

Isn't there a Sansa "Shake"?

JHC 141 posts no lock?  Paul on vacation?  Wow Mikey a new record for you with 44 posts!!! Looks like some of the other 97 posts are not to happy with you:)

I would say the event was just OK.  Not bad, Not great.  Solid improvements across the board and with the price drops I imagine the iTouch 8gig will own this holiday season.  The genius thing did wow me as much as Jobs went on about it, then again I dont want to kill my internet connection when it scans my music collection.

Honestly who care who wins, just kick back and listen to some tunes!!!

@mike - "Identifying a song over FM by subcarrier encoding then transferring that song to a purchase list (or download list for ZunePass subscribers) is not only unique, it's a huge innovation linking two different distribution media seamlessly and answering a real consumer desire unlike it's nano-chromatic!"

Its not all that unique...XM ToGo has had it for a few years now. I guess its unique, in that it is FM radio instead of a satellite signal...but the concept is not innovative in the least.

--tayme

tayme

Terrestrial radio and radio not owned by the company providing the service are what make it a big deal.

Oh, I like the idea, I own a Zune...I am just saying it is not innovative. Plus, XM doesn't own Napster, last I knew.

--tayme

Not service as in Napster, service as in the broadcast network. The key is they owned both ends of the data pipe carrying the radio signal and the data format.

>>That kind of misses the whole point of a portable music player, doesn't it?<<

We're talking about the idea, Mike.  It's not a new idea or a great gee whiz innovation.

It's just unique to the Zune, inasmuch as the Zune is one of very few with both FM Radio, WiFi, and it's own store.

>>In other words, they won't do it. Not, they can't, they don't want to bother because it's against their financial interests.<<

I agree.  Though I think now that they would open it all up to DRM-free if the labels would let them.  

I don't think they would license Fairplay under any conditions.  I think they'd demand that the labels let them sell the music without DRM, and even go so far as to not sell music that they couldn't get the rights to see DRM-free.

NBC came around to their way of thinking.

>>Pasting for the search impaired<<

Yes or No:  I can 'tag' music on FM on my new blue Zune and when I get to my PC it will automatically buy it from the Amazon.com MP3 store, my store of choice?

Yes or No...true or false?

Oh, XM doesn't own Samsung or Pioneer or Delphi, they are the end of the data pipe that is in the users hand...Come on Mike...its ok. Admit it. MS did not innovate this thing. You can take your nose out of the air long enough to admit...YOU ARE WRONG ON THIS ONE!!! Of course, I fully expect you come up with any type of comment to avoid admitting the simple fact that I am right and you are wrong on this one. Again, I point you to ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons

--tayme

@Ocean - Since Mike is obviously skirting your question, I will answer...No...you can only buy tracks from the Zune service automatically. Not that you can't buy it from Amazon and play it on a Zune...but it will not be automatic. Zune only integrates with the Zune Marketplace.

I think that you are starting to irritate me less than Mike...or Mike is starting to irritate me more than you...one or the other.

--tayme

tayme

I know that XM doesn't own their licensees but I'm under the impression that they own the receiver circuit design and that the licensees effectively build their products around XM designed radio circuitry.

I may be wrong and if so, I'd love to find out. It's not an area I've worked in.

Still unable to say that MS DID NOT innovate this, huh...Go figure.

--tayme

tayme

What part of "Zune is closed (for people who like a simple, totally integrated model - like iPod/iTunes)" is skirting the issue?

(Now said 3 times)

Your inability to never answer a question directly amazes me. That is called skirting the issue in my book.

--tayme

See...Here is how you do it...my sentence above is WRONG...It is your ability to never answer a question directly that amazes me.

--tayme

tayme

What part of "sending proprietary data over a proprietary data pipe where you own both ends is different than working with existing data on a public network with thousands of data points you don't control" are you unable to get?

XM innovated.

Bose innovated (from a different thread)

Microsoft innovated.

.

Deal with it.

@mikegalos - I believe it was you who said that the evolution of an existing technology is not innovation. Maybe I am wrong...but I think that is what we have here.

--tayme

"Bose innovated"

You mean Blose?  About the only innovation that they do these days is in advertising.

@tayme

Cumon mate, leave it out!

Mike is 'always right'.

Paul is impartial

and Steve Jobs is a liar. He really is dead!

SPiotr, you're right on one of the three points. Mike is not always right and Paul is not always impartial.

tayme, seriously, what exactly do you want from mike? Like everybody here, he is opinionated and like most posters, does not easily change his opinions.

Most are opinionated...but most don't continually move the target to avoid admitting they are wrong. Mike has done that since the day he started posting. Its like when the Fonz had to say "I'm sorry".

--tayme

tayme, I think ocean's questions deserve those responses. I have a feeling he does this intentionally (unless he tells me otherwise).

tayme

Since you bothered to look up a posting that's a few weeks old now, perhaps you should have read enough to get the context. The " evolution of an existing technology is not innovation" was specifically about what would and wouldn't be put into a list a couple of us were putting together. We didn't want every minor thing listed or it would have gotten out of hand and been unworkable and wanted to agree ahead of time so we wouldn't waste time going in different directions.

You can, absolutely, innovate by evolving products. My only restriction on that would be that you only deserve credit for the new parts and not for the entire stack back through history.

For example, the modern optical mouse is clearly an innovation. The engineering team at Hewlett Packard should get the huge credit for the camera, light and DSP design that made it work and for the idea of using a camera that would work on various surfaces. That doesn't mean they should get credit for inventing the mouse or for creating the concept of a mouse that worked by reflecting light rather than moving wheels or a ball because both of those had been around before.

>>@Ocean - Since Mike is obviously skirting your question, I will answer...No...you can only buy tracks from the Zune service automatically.<<

Thanks!  Too bad they didn't make it consumer friendly and set it up to let me make a purchase from ANY music store.

The nerve of them using their technology to make money for themselves!

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