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Making "Skeletor Steve" look good today will require more botox than Cupertino can muster, methinks.

Somebody give that boy a cheeseburger.

If you are talking with the Zune team, tell them we want (or at least I want) Stereo Bluetooth, and the device will become a viable option for me.

The Zune isn't underrated...it ALWAYS gets high marks.

Maybe Seinfeld can move a few...it's just that, as you said, the market has matured.  I think they released it two years too late.

The Zune isn't underrated...it ALWAYS gets high marks.

Maybe Seinfeld can move a few...it's just that, as you said, the market has matured.  I think they released it two years too late.

I must admit I'm amused that the rumored change to the iPod Nano looks almost exactly like a flash Zune with rounded edges.

Either Apple decided that the Zune team got the form factor right and copied them or the people speculating about what their ideal Nano would look like decided it was a Zune.

Guess we'll know whether it was photocopiers or fantasies in a few hours.

Paul

I don't think you need to be too worried that it won't be all that exciting.

If it was nothing but iPod Socks, you'd still see 1,200 "redundant news stories" (to use the Dvorakism) about Apple's revolutionary new design for iPod Socks and at least 200 saying, "Why can't Microsoft be this innovative about Zune Socks?"

Ocean, fair enough.

The problem with the Zune, I think, is that while they do offer some unique features, they also lag in certain areas. To be a true alternative, they need to be able to offer iPod owners a reason to want to switch.

Paul,

But now that they've caught up in the only feature anyone really needs, and by that I mean, of course, support for Audible.com books, they're all set.

Audible.com - For all your listening needs.

:-)

"Maybe Seinfeld can move a few"

I would expect Zune to be mentioned in at least one of the ads. I think Zune is a "true alternative" to iPods at this point. The only problem is that people won't switch unless Microsoft offers something really remarkable or if Apple falters.

Umm Mike you realize that form factor of the 2nd generation of the iPod Nano right?

I'd like a zune, but i'm not in the US, so I can't have one.

Umm, Dude, you realize the generation 2 nano has a tiny landscape orientation screen and the Zune 4, 8 and 16 and the rumored Nano 4th Generation have a big, portrait oriented screen?

The other thing that almost everyone (anywhere seems to miss) is this isn't a two horse race right now. Its a race for 2nd place and there are plenty of others out there fighting for #2. This is not to say that MS can't advance their standing with the market simply they are not competing for iPod users at this time IMHO.

I'm also willing to bet by the time MS gets any traction in this market the DAP market will have morphed into a convergence device... hmmm there will be a market for DAP, but not like there is now.

Mike- I get that. I'm merely pointing out the form-factor.

Dude

That it's taller than it's wide is hardly "the form factor"

Seriously, look at a flash Zune, an iPod Nano Generation 1 or 2 and the rumored Generation 4.

Now, tell me the rumored Generation 4 doesn't look like a Zune with rounded right and left edges and a circle rather than a squircle control.

"And while Apple's penchant for secrecy may work wonders for product launches, it's not doing much to overcome investor fears about Jobs. If he looks OK today, at least one analyst has predicted that Apple's stock will skyrocket. Fair enough."

Gruber writes: "Spoiler: Jobs will be on stage, in his usual role. But he remains just as thin as he was in June. This isn’t some sort of state secret, though. Jobs is a common presence on the Apple campus. He eats in the cafeteria, he walks around between buildings. He’s not and has never been a recluse."

I suppose the analysts unwilling to do the necessary 30 seconds of research* won't recognize this fact, though, and will express shock at Jobs' appearance.

*For clarification: I'm NOT talking about Paul.

Zune platform is pretty underrated. It's sad. In some ways I think it is better than the iPod. I have an iPod Touch. I wish it did some of the things the Zune does. But as Paul pointed out, MS has not done enough to make me want to switch.

rjohn05

Remember, though, that the flash Zunes compete against the iPod Nano line and not the much more high-end Touch line.

The question isn't "Has Microsoft offered enough to get a Touch owner to switch to Zune" but "Has Microsoft offered enough to get a Nano owner to switch to Zune"

@Dude you will have to forgive Mike, he is the resident super poster and has to always be right.  Someone even posted a cartoon about that once.

When the Zune 4/8 gig models came out, almost every single review said that it took the iPOD 2gen form factor that Apple left behind for the Fat Nano/3g.

So yes the Zune copied the 2g Nano, and now Apple has gone back to it....with the bigger screen.

bettieblu

You see I have to post so often because people like you don't bother reading the posts and restate things that were already proven wrong.

@rjohn I have a iTouch as well, the radio feature would be cool I suppose, but then again I never listen to the radio to be honest.

The Zune has done nothing so far to make me want to switch.  I think that wireless sharing is worthless.  I never seen anyone with a Zune in the wild.  I know a guy that has a gen 1 and he shuts off the wifi because it eats up the battery.  The Zune needs way more 3rd party hardware support for me at least.

(sigh) Mike - this doesn't have to be a tit for tat match yet it seems you want to push it in that direction.

Does it look similar? Sure. I'm guessing here that given how egotistical Apple allegedly is; they weren't looking to Redmond for design influences.

I still maintain that MS is in a dog fight with the other 2nd place guys, they have to first offer a compelling reason to switch there before they can hope to unseat Apple. Its not like the other players are bad, Sansa and Sandisk for one make capable players.

You can argue semantics all you want, Zune as is rightly pointed out going to have to offer reasons to switch, as of right now there isn't any.  

Dude

(sigh) you think when somebody does nothing but essentially repost your earlier point and add a personal attack then I'm at fault for answering the personal attack?

(sigh) is right.

Proven wrong????  Not so Mike.

reviews.cnet.com/.../4505-6490_7-32638981.html

"That said, the Zune 4 and Zune 8 have a nice shape, which feels reminiscent of the first-generation iPod Nano."

www.electronista.com/.../zune-4-nearly-the-ipods-true-rival.html

"If there is a complaint about the design on a superficial level, it would simply be that Microsoft chose the safe route of imitating the iPod nano's design too conspicuously"

From the Winsupersite no less, which has pictures of the two stacked up.

www.winsupersite.com/.../zune2_03.asp

"Enter the Microsoft Zune 4 and Zune 8, which feature 4 GB and 8 GB of flash memory, respectively, and adopt the music-friendly form factor of the first and second generation iPod nano"

You really are a tool man.

If it's nothing special for Apple's announcement then why all the fuss about it? Honestly, I don't know, but I'll be listening.

If it doesn't live up to what Microsoft has done with the Zune, then we all need to give big props to Redmond for stealing the show.

As for Steve Jobs, as much as I admire and deeply respect him, he doesn't look to good. I hate to say it, but perhaps they should try CGI? Or you can bring him down to Texas and I'll take him to some KFC, Taco Bell, a few wing joints, and some ribs places. You know, get some weight on that man. He needs a Bacon Ultimate Cheeseburger like I need a lotto hit in the Mega Millions.

Hate to say it, but I hope Jobs is grooming a successor. Kudos for Bill for picking Ray Ozzie.

>>Either Apple decided that the Zune team got the form factor right and copied them<<

Pretty doubtful it was that black and white.

It may just be that vertical is the way to go...just like using a mouse is the way to interact with the UI.  

>>If it doesn't live up to what Microsoft has done with the Zune, then we all need to give big props to Redmond for stealing the show.<<

Except MS released early when their hand was forced.  Next week was the selected release date.

Can't give them props for that.

mike:

"You see I have to post so often because people like you don't bother reading the posts and restate things that were already proven wrong."

No.

You have to post so often because you are a pompous jackass who *has* to be right every single time.

Pingback from  About the Zune update, today&#39;s Apple news

Why, when someone isn't fat, are they branded as being sick?

I mean seriously? Why?

Not everyone eats KFC, Taco Bell, wings (although they are tasty with a pitcher of beer), and ribs.

RunTimeError

No, I'm a pompous jackass who *is* right every single time.

If MS starts offering Zune and its subscription services in a more international fashion, I think they'd be able to put a fight for a solid second position in market.

I live in Argentina, an as far as I see, VERY FEW people buy a branded PMP. They just need it to play music, be able to load it as a pen drive, and let'em to choose their music sources on their own. The usual suspects are CROWN 512mb to 2GB keychain players that also record audio, have FM, a 3 line monochrome LCD. That's it. It also enables them to carry around their files, and retrieve them easily w/o using any third party software (the good ol' Mass Storage USB Device)

There's a lot more demand for Mobile Phone WITH media capabilities. I think it's time for a Zune Phone, already folks! A ZPhone for the masses, for those that don't need/want a powerhouse but a nicely designed handset, a responsive interface, and a chance to be Social with the most Social device of the moment. You could use BT to beam music, and that would be all...

Ah... to dream, to dream...

Another case in point

Two years ago Apple laughed a Microsoft's choice of brown for the Zune 30.

Today, Steve Jobs is wearing a brown mock turtleneck. Clearly Apple figured out two years late that brown is the new black.

"I hate to say it, but perhaps they should try CGI?"

Or they could just replace him with a robot....that is, if he weren't one already.

Mike,

I wonder why Steve Jobs would even go after the Zune.

I think he's just obsessed with Microsoft, in spite of all the success Apple has had.

FWIW, to date, I haven't seen a single snarky remark about the iPod from anyone in the Zune team.

"Why, when someone isn't fat, are they branded as being sick?"

Isn't obsession a kind of sickness?

"Today, Steve Jobs is wearing a brown mock turtleneck. Clearly Apple figured out two years late that brown is the new black."

What ever happened to the translucent 2-toned colour schemes of the Zune anyway?  I kind of liked that idea.

And yes, mike.  I pointed out when the Zune 1.0 came out, that brown was (and still is) a popular colour among the "GAP generation".  Fashion isn't always so black and white, you know.

"Today, Steve Jobs is wearing a brown mock turtleneck."

What are you basing that on? The photos from the feed at engadget? By that reckoning, he has a pink face, too, and Phil Schiller is wearing orange makeup. It's black, man. Once again, you're wrong (or as Waethorn would say, "WRONG!!!! LIAR!!!!)..

"And yes, mike.  I pointed out when the Zune 1.0 came out, that brown was (and still is) a popular colour among the "GAP generation"."

Not so popular in Canada. Makes you look like a moose. Then Canadian men start chasing you.

"I wonder why Steve Jobs would even go after the Zune.

I think he's just obsessed with Microsoft, in spite of all the success Apple has had.

FWIW, to date, I haven't seen a single snarky remark about the iPod from anyone in the Zune team. "

I wonder the same thing too.  Yet, here is Steve today:

"they announce products before they want them to... it's funny."

And once in a blue moon I agree with lotsa, and he is right on with the Skeletor remark.  Yeah, this dude is looking quite frail.  I saw a crack that said "thinnest Steve ever!"

"I wonder why Steve Jobs would even go after the Zune."

Citation, please? Except for the mention of Microsoft's miniscule market share, there hasn't been any Zune-baiting. Even Apple's ads NEVER mention the Zune.

@Mike

"Another case in point

Two years ago Apple laughed a Microsoft's choice of brown for the Zune 30.

Today, Steve Jobs is wearing a brown mock turtleneck. Clearly Apple figured out two years late that brown is the new black."

The random similarity of a mock turtleneck 2 years later than the yecky brown color of the original Zune is----now what was that called, oh yah, a coincidence. The color "brown" occurs in many places at many times, signifying...... nothing.

As for colors, the new Nano colors sure don't look much like brown to me. But, of course, UPS loves brown, again signifying nothing at all.....

lotsa

"Makes you look like a moose. Then Canadian men start chasing you."

Better than in Alaska where the Governor tries to shoot you.

Worst

iPod launch

Ever

lotsa, here:

www.google.com/search

"...than the yecky brown color of the original Zune is..."

The "yecky" brown is pretty popular at stores like Lucky and Banana Republic FYI. Also, MS was mocked for having come out with a consumer electronics device in brown. Dare anyone mock Apple for rainbow colors? Orange? No way.

"Worst

iPod launch

Ever"

Hey Mike I can write your comments if you want?  You wont even have to send me the content, your so predictable.

Is there anything you like about Apple?  I mean I seen enough of your posts (who has not) and I don't remember once you giving them any credit, for anything.

What exactly was so bad about it?

It's past time for this thread to be locked.

Yeah what is with the thread locking?

bettieblue

Let's summarize the "New" events from the once-a-year update on the most popular music player in the world.

Hard drive players: Biggest model dropped, Single model now at 120GB but no new features

Flash players: Last year's "fat" design rolled back to vertical, screen updated to match Zune, rounded edges, "Shake to Shuffle", "Genius" recomendations (with no way to play except by buying unlike Zune Pass), new colors

Touch line: rounded corners, "Shake to Shuffle", "Genius" recomendations (with no way to play except by buying unlike Zune Pass), bundled Nike software that does nothing unless you buy the Nike hardware. Retargeting Touch as a portable game device with music player and competitor to PSP

Shuffle: no change

Accessories: New earbuds that they "finally got it right" on (unlike all the previous ones that were "awesome" but now are "not right")

Desktop Software: Updated selection UI to optionally look less like a spreadsheet (but still not up to last year's Zune desktop software)

iPhone 2.1 update: improves but doesn't fix call drop problems, improves but doesn't fix call quality, fixes some app crashes, improves sync time.

Did I miss something?

Is there something there that's actually worth noting?

@Mike

"Worst

iPod launch

Ever"

Since this crowd so loves "marketshare", let's all come back here in January and see how the Worst. Ipod lauch. Ever. does for Christmas sales. Hmm?

@mikegalos: Thanks. We can now officially apply the "WinJihadist" label to you as well as Waethorn.

Oops. Missed one.

Added actual volume control to Touch since users like being able to change the volume without running into lamp posts while jogging using Nike+

Nice summary, Mike. Expect the tech crowd to be wowed by everything demonstrated today even though it was pretty underwhelming. BTW, this is the day that Paul usually turns into an Apple fan.

lotsa

Thank you. Glad I got it back.

I was afraid that after getting awarded the title for saying the iPhone had problems with dropped calls, call quality, app crashes and sync speed that I'd have lost my rights to the title after Apple said they were issuing a patch to fix those problems that the iCabal insisted didn't exist.

I feel much better now.

>>BTW, this is the day that Paul usually turns into an Apple fan<<

By that measure he's a Google fan too.  Just stop it, eh?

Heres a quote:

>>Pictures of Apple CEO Steve Jobs, whose health has been much in question lately, show him looking imperiously slim, not dangerously frail. <<

valleywag.com/.../steve-jobs-looks-okay-at-ipod-event

Shark

I suspect that after today's non-event even Leo Laporte isn't going to be gushing. (Goatberg, maybe)

Ocean

Here's a tip. Quoting ValleyWag is the equivalent of quoting the Star or the Sun. It's proudly a tabloid gossip rag.

(Note: Not the equivalent of the National Enquirer, they actually tend toward getting stuff sensational but right)

Oops again. Forgot to include that Touch has a tiny speaker added that Steve Jobs said was only for "casual listening" (More likely it's for game sound) and Nano added a voice recorder. (actually a possibly useful feature)

>> today's non-event<<

What is the difference between an 'event' and a 'non-event'?

Your bar seems like it is set too high.  But maybe they won't sell this fall and winter and we'll see that you're right.  I doubt it.

Here are the new webcams and mice MS released.  Perhaps that will be more to your liking.

news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10036590-1.html

news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10036423-1.html

Mike...re: Valleywag

Lighten up,  Levity is our common friend.

>>that Touch has a tiny speaker added that Steve Jobs said was only for "casual listening"<<

I would think it would be the same as the one in the iPhone.  Not sure what the reviews said about that one.

Ocean

I like ValleyWag but I wouldn't quote them.

Re: the Apple event - About what I expected.  All the run-up to this event had led one not to expect anything world-changing.  But, a solid fall line-up, all in all.

The only real news was re-aligning the price/value structure:

- Nonos double the memory for the same price.

- Touch 8Gig goes from 299 to 229.  Touch 16Gig goes from 399 to 299.  Touch 32Gig at $399 (as "real" ganes appear for this platform, this may become a more compeling product.  It really doea a lot)

- Classic goes from 80 to 120 gig for the same price, 160 gig model dropped

Oh, and NBC is back.  This is a big deal for many.

Ocean

When you roll out your rock star CEO only 3 times a year and when one of those is when you roll out the only revisions you make that year to your only product line that's an industry sales leader, you've kind of set the bar pretty high.

When you use that hour to include things like "headphones that finally don't suck" and "let's bring Phil up here to play some games as filler" and "hey, we're issuing a patch on Friday to fix some of the bugs in our halo product" you've pretty much missed not only that high bar, but you've missed jumping over a champion limbo player's bar.

Oh dear.  I really must read these things before I hit "Add."  Apologies for the egregious typos in previous post.  I'm really not illiterate, I swear. Senile, perhaps...

"Not so popular in Canada. Makes you look like a moose. Then Canadian men start chasing you."

"WRONG!!!  LIAR!!!"

You're wrong there.  When you wear red lumberjack plaid (known in most circles as a "skid jacket"), you fit in with the bears.  :P

vids.myspace.com/index.cfm

(NSFW, but funny)

"Dare anyone mock Apple for rainbow colors?"

Um....

>>When you roll out your rock star CEO only 3 times a year and when one of those is when you roll out the only revisions you make that year to your only product line that's an industry sales leader, you've kind of set the bar pretty high.<<

I think you're the only one thinking this way.  Every refresh can't be a world-changer (to steal WebGuys's phrase).  

mikegalos@msn.com  said:

Dude

(sigh) you think when somebody does nothing but essentially repost your earlier point and add a personal attack then I'm at fault for answering the personal attack?

(sigh) is right.

***********************************

Personal Attack? Someone is a bit touchy methinks. You might want to switch to decaf in the afternoon.

***********************************

chuckb84  said:

@Mike

"Worst

iPod launch

Ever"

Since this crowd so loves "marketshare", let's all come back here in January and see how the Worst. Ipod lauch. Ever. does for Christmas sales. Hmm

***********************************

C'mon now Chuck no sense making comments like that! :) (sarcasm) and for the record I can give a crap about market share in anything...

Actually, all the "Apple is the most wonderful company in the history of the world and we just love them ever so much" type answering only with market share really does point out that not only is the iPod division just phoning it in these days but it's OK with them.

1. Microsoft would have been mocked for features like shake to shuffle and some of the Nano colors. Apple will not only get away with it, a lot of analysts will tout the shake to shuffle feature as groundbreaking.

2. It's not that Microsoft does not have a compelling set of features to make people want to switch. It's the coolness factor. It's the marketing. Microsoft has failed at its marketing attempts. Apple is able to make people want stuff that they don't really need. Of course, the so called analysts are very helpful in this regard.

3. Ocean, even when you're not posting links to irrelevant articles, you're still as annoying as ever. It looks like you're only objective here is to negate anything positive that is said about Microsoft or anything negative that's said about its competitors.

BTW, yes, Paul is a Google fan. He likes their products.

Shark

I'm actually curious about the "shake to shuffle" feature and how easy they make turning it off. This does NOT seem like the right feature to match with the Nike+ jogger's app...

(or a really amusing feature to turn on for that unsuspecting jogger friend)

"1. Microsoft would have been mocked for features like shake to shuffle and some of the Nano colors. Apple will not only get away with it, a lot of analysts will tout the shake to shuffle feature as groundbreaking."

I'm interested to see if Apple's biggest fan journalists are going to label it a "gimmick" or point out that a similar thing already exist on other mp3 players, as they would have done if this was a non-Apple device we were talking about.

But yeah, part of Apple's sales effort is dependent on a biased, fawning tech media, so it should be a real hoot to see them whore themselves to Xanadu for Apple on this one.

Btw the fights between Apple fans have already broken out on various messageboards, and boy are they going at each other. When their expectations aren't met, they do turn on each other big time.

"I'm actually curious about the "shake to shuffle" feature and how easy they make turning it off."

Seriously though.  This should be another one of those "Who designed this crap?" articles.

Microsoft has lured users away from the illegal "Music is free, and comes from the Internet" mindset and adapted it into a complex social networking thing similar to the "MyFace" with connections to their store (unfortunately, only in the US though).  That takes some real thinking.

@sharky - "Microsoft would have been mocked for features like shake to shuffle and some of the Nano colors. Apple will not only get away with it, a lot of analysts will tout the shake to shuffle feature as groundbreaking."

You are probably right about MS being mocked for that and Apple being championed for it...that is until a teenaged driver kills somebody while shuffling songs or playing games on their iPod while driving. Texting while driving is bad....this could become worse. And if you think they won't do it...you don't have teenagers.

--tayme

I have no doubt you can shut it off the shake to shuffle, in the settings.  The lock button probably shuts it off while its locked, so start your play list, lock the device, run.  Pretty much what I do when I jog with my current Nano.

The shake to shuffle is not a feature meant to make someone switch, but more to show off of the accelerometer technology, and use it to add small features.  As in "we have this accelerometer technology that can do this, this, and this, our competitors dont".  With exploit of this feature you widen the gap.

Tayme LOL, if they were going to kill someone while playing games, the DS would have done it by now.  Its only the best selling game console ever.

>>As in "we have this accelerometer technology that can do this, this, and this, our competitors dont".  With exploit of this feature you widen the gap.<<

Kinda like the FM radio and the Wireless on the Zune...

>>It looks like you're only objective here is to negate anything positive that is said about Microsoft or anything negative that's said about its competitors.

<<

I think we'd all be better off talking tech than about other posters.  

@bettieblu - I wonder if it has already happenned on a DS???

Next question, does the iPhone include the shake to shuffle/game control like the iPod Touch/Nano (I am not sure which includes it and which don't, so I could be wrong)? If so, that means that they will have it out while driving anyway...why not play a few games between text messages?

--tayme

I do wonder if there is some other reason for the comment locking here.  Anyone hear anything from Paul about this?

Although, remember that Paul is in Redmond today as he stated earlier.

Now how do I know this was an underwhelming event?  Besides the fact you need the CEO up in front of a stage telling you about bug fixes, the stock is currently down almost 4% with only a few minutes before the buzzer left.

>>I wonder if it has already happenned on a DS???

<<

Probably.

www.joystiq.com/.../gaming-while-driving-laws-coming-soon

Apple relying on marketing rather than product?

How could you say that?

The iPod Touch is "the funnest iPod ever!"

The new iPod Nanos are "nano-chromatic!"

Isn't that all you need to know?

Favorite part of today's Apple event: "Sandisk has 8.6%, Microsoft has 2.6%, and “Other” is 15.4%. Not too bad, Microsoft."

Seriously, people who think Apple can market their way out of a paper bag haven't been around the company very long.  Their marketing is pretty pathetic.  If their products weren't so great, they'd have been dead a decade ago.  And people who don't understand that their products are great are probably the type who compare products on a checklist or a feature spec rather than how well it fits into their lives.

>>Seriously, people who think Apple can market their way out of a paper bag haven't been around the company very long.  Their marketing is pretty pathetic. <<

Tell us why you think so, please.

dipsh

Actually it came up while I was briefly talking to Paul at the conference yesterday but I'd rather not discuss a private conversation here.

I'll leave it up to Paul to decide what he wants to say about how he runs his board if anything.