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As for the no accelerometer in the Classic:  I don't think its a good idea to "shake" a hard-drive based device to invoke the shuffle songs function.

"A year ago, NBC left iTunes because Apple wouldn't give them the variable pricing they wanted. Apple claimed (and its closest iCabal fanatics parroted) that NBC just wanted to sell TV shows for more than $1.99. But that wasn't true: They wanted to sell older shows for just 99 cents per episode. And longer, mini-series-type shows for $2.99."

actually, since the negotiations between apple and NBC are private, we don't know for a fact what NBC demanded.  

I love that when apple shows how big and great it is (market share) it's cute and nice. When MS does it, people just say....'you bully'.

I am actually intrigued by the new zune. Anything to get itunes off my system...hate that POS

"And customers have downloaded over 100 million iPhone apps from the App Store in just two months. (OK, most were free.)"

(OK, most of the rest were tip calculators)

Pingback from  ezineaerticles  » Blog Archive   » Quickie, off-the-cuff reaction to today's iPod/iTunes announcements

Paul

Actually, I think the Zune people pulled off a coup. They got new functionality and massive good will by incorporating all those new features across their back product line. And since they're not doing resale to existing customers anywhere near as much as Apple (they can't, they don't have that many) they don't lose much by canibalizing new sales with free upgrades.

In short, the Zune owners got the message, "Hey, look at all this cool new stuff you can do without spending a dime. Owning a Zune is a good long-term choice. Buy lots as gifts this year!"

The iPod owners got the message, "Hey, we're out of ideas but we're nano-chromatic so don't be caught with last year's colors. Retire that old iPod and buy a new one in orange.

I leave it as an exercise to the reader as to which message to be sending in tough economic times when you sell a non-essential.

glad to see apple finally discover the album cover tile feature, but then again I guess apple just invented it.   And now with genius bar they have new "Features" to promote buying DRMed music and video..... yeah

I agree with this commentary on pretty much all counts.  I also think that media companies should be allowed to price their content however they want and let the market decide.  I realize that Apple is worried about taking the heat for stupid pricing instead of the content creator... but I think that's silly.  I don't blame Walmart for the pricing of their DVDs (well, in that case you have to thank them for the lower prices, and curse them for the censorship).

Pay-to-own video content, though I believe will remain a niche when you can get the same shows for free from ad-supported services.  The video market is immensely complex and changing fast.  Apple should adopt a more free-market approach to iTunes pricing and let people decide what they want to buy.  We're big boys.  We can decide for ourselves.

As for Apple being "bad guys" with regard to NBC... I really don't see how Paul or anyone can make such a claim without access to the negotiation.  Both sides have obvious incentives to say that they were on the side of consumers.  This stuff, again, isn't about "bad" or "good" and I think this moralizing is getting pretty tiring.

Oh... and I think it's pretty fair to say that the Flash Zune may really be better than the Nano now for the same price.  Wifi, radio with tagging, onthego downloads.  That's good stuff.

Ya honestly, i'm also really intriged by what the new Zune software updates have to offer. Since I am a current Zune device 2.0 user, I was estatic to see that all these updates will work on my current Zune, WITHOUT having to buy a new model.

It's genius, really

>>Or as I call it, the second-generation iPod mini. <<

I thought the same thing when I saw them put it up against a mini.

And...the sideways thing looks uncomfortable to hold.

>>They got new functionality and massive good will by incorporating all those new features across their back product line. <<

Wouldn't that require a massive user base?  I tend to think that they incurred a little good will.    :D

I can't believe all the media hype over this, non-event. The best or from my perspective worst news is the ipod touch price drop. Now my daughter is reminding me I said I'd get her one if the price was more reasonable. $179.00 for the refurb is reasonable.

crap

This was a very underwhelming event. Paul is right that the Zune folks had the perfect opportunity to launch a new zune device and blew it.

The label is wrong, but here's the Mini vs the Nano II comparison I was talking about:  www.flickr.com/.../2843947460

Microsoft has nothing to answer the iPod Touch.  You can act like it's old news but there is still nothing like it, and the price drop is a big deal.  Then there's the iPhone 3G.

I will credit MS for not yet abandoning the first generation Zune.  But it is unlikely to cause a big jump is sales, and as Paul loves to chortle about Apple on desktops, a 50% increase over very little is still very little.

This is what we were told in July:

"Although Apple historically has a lower gross margins in the September quarter because of the Back-to-School promotion, Apple also added that a "new product that [it] [couldn't] discuss" would also result in lower gross-margins. Throughout the call, Oppenheimer kept throwing out phrases like "product transition," "new additions to the product line" and a little mantra that went something like, "Apple makes state of the art new products that the competition just can't match. When we do that earlier in an introduction, costs are higher."

...and what we got today was THIS? Talk about over-promising and under-delivering!

Ok Paul, I understand that you were underwhelmed about new hardware from either side, but I think Microsoft won this year in terms of just anything new.

The Zune software is highly superior on both the device and PC software. Although, yeah, the content is lacking, thats something that can easily improve over time.

This year was lacking anything exciting from the world of MP3 players but the new Zune update, in my honest opinion, is the most exciting thing to happen all year in this category. (I mean come, being a Zune pass subscriber and being able to download as many as songs as you want in a wi-fi hotspot! How cool is that?).

Mike:

"Paul

Actually, I think the Zune people pulled off a coup. They got new functionality and massive good will by incorporating all those new features across their back product line. And since they're not doing resale to existing customers anywhere near as much as Apple (they can't, they don't have that many) they don't lose much by canibalizing new sales with free upgrades.

In short, the Zune owners got the message, "Hey, look at all this cool new stuff you can do without spending a dime. Owning a Zune is a good long-term choice. Buy lots as gifts this year!"

The iPod owners got the message, "Hey, we're out of ideas but we're nano-chromatic so don't be caught with last year's colors. Retire that old iPod and buy a new one in orange.

I leave it as an exercise to the reader as to which message to be sending in tough economic times when you sell a non-essential."

You sir, are completely right. This is exactly what I'm trying to get at.. What Apple is doing to their users really looks bad compared to what Microsoft (thats right, "Micro$oft", ahem) is doing with their new and old costumers

Oh... and I think it's pretty fair to say that the Flash Zune may really be better than the Nano now for the same price.  Wifi, radio with tagging, onthego downloads.  That's good stuff.

Wifi: Pointless

Radio: Not since the 80's

On the go downloads: Useless, I'd have to be on my WIFI network and my computer is on my network.

Ocean

The Zune people got massive good will despite not having a massive base that got the benefit because even people without a Zune got a good impression of the platform.

Steve2000

Wifi: I assume you think it's pointless on the iPhone and iPod Touch as well?

Radio: You know, the current CIA World Factbook (www.cia.gov/.../us.html) says there are 8,961 FM broadcast stations in the US. And that doesn't count low-power transmitters in places like gyms. Guess most of us live in the '80s. Guess you're just too cool for the room.

On the go downloads: well, since, for some reason, Wifi is pointless to you, using it must be pointless as well

"I thought the same thing when I saw them put it up against a mini.

And...the sideways thing looks uncomfortable to hold."

What sideways thing are you talking about? By the way, the pic you linked to is the 2nd gen Nano, not the Mini.

"This stuff, again, isn't about "bad" or "good" and I think this moralizing is getting pretty tiring."

No, it's not. You're either with Paul or with the bad guys.

"Wifi: Pointless"

I actually like the wireless syncing feature that was introduced last year. I don't need to take the Zune out of the dock. I do have a shuffle that I use at the gym. BTW, like doc, I injured myself badly at the gym last week and had to take a couple of days off because I couldn't get out of bed. :-)

when will apple innovate and give us wifi based sync.  I walk into my place, it sees its home network, and looks for my pc to sync with.  its really simple

mikegalos@msn.com - September 9, 2008 - 62 posts between 8:53 AM  and 10:14 PM. Thats 4.6 posts per hour for ~13.5 hours....GET A LIFE, MAN!!!

--tayme

Wow, what a coup for Microsoft! Nothing new from Apple worth mentioning. iTunes 8... yada, yada, yada. Slightly modified iPod Touch, not so great. Does Zune need an answer to the Touch, not if they are doing a good enough job with the Zune. The touch is nice, but the equivalent video iPod and Zune equivalent is good enough.

Borrowing from the Zune's design, huge coup for the Zune Team. Apple fumbled with the last Nano and who do they copy? The laughed at, ridiculed, panned, and dismissed Zune. I'm laughing at this. Instead of creating something new, Apple goes back to stealing. Eddie Guererro must be laughing at this. (R.I.P.)

The only thing noteworthy was that Apple finally caved to NBC. Thank the Lord! Especially with the new Knight Rider coming and other NBC content that I wanted, that was the only thing. Compared to the radio tagging, not as good.

Hopefully people will finally take a harder much more comprehensive look at Zune. Trust me, I am strongly considering it. Now we need a iPod to Zune transition guide. Paul?

@subzero - Nice WWF play there...

--tayme

dmccall, September isn't over.  

Is there another announcement, of other things, coming?  I don't know.  And even if there are other things, there aren't many selling days.

My hunch is that there are other things and they may not appear this quarter.

And why did this event have to be at Yerba Buena Center?  It was an Apple auditorium magnitude event.

Robert Mclaws has linked to a post that hints at more XBox/Zune related news in the next few days. Of course, it's all rumors at this point.

The electric blue Zune looks pretty good.

Advertising, Microsoft - that's what will sell Zunes.

I'm glad Apple went back to the original Nano form which made it look much sleeker. And now it is even more so with its shape, materials and colors. The accelerometer to change the view is great too. As always one small ti stay ahead while the competition tries to catch-up.

BTW, the 2.1 firmware update is for the iPod touch not the iPhone, hence the non update.

Mike, by seeing your comment, you don't have or use an iphone regularly, which is a shame. You would know then what the app store is all about. And no there's no shame in using an Apple product as Paul can attest.

I personally don't find the 2.0.2 firmware buggy. I never have crash or hanging moments. There is one thing I do that might explain that, it's restarting the phone once a week. It doesn't take much time and cleanse these page files that slow down the OS in the long run.

"They got new functionality and massive good will by incorporating all those new features across their back product line."

The new features here are mostly new ways to buy music, or did I miss something? Come on, these announcements were both boring as hell.

As for the Nano design... Are we really now discussing who invented vertical screens on devices that you carry in your pocket?

www.gameandwatchnow.com/showstockimages.php

DaveinLA

Two comments

1) The tip calculator comment was an inside joke (in case you hadn't noticed, every developer in the iPhone dev program seems to have done a tip calculator - it's a pretty common joke in the iPhone community these days)

2) the 2.1 firmware update for the iPhone was announced today and ships on Friday.

dmccall

It's possible that Apple still has one more announcement day up their sleeve seeing how nothing new has come out of the Macintosh hardware side in a long time except the MacBook Air and the usual slipstreamed processor updates.

The laptop line is definitely getting a bit ancient and at a minimum doesn't have the tapered edges that we're seeing as the "New!" product design language this year in the MacBook Air, iPhone 2, iPod Touch 2 and iPod Nano Generation 4 or the aluminum finish that's also part of the "New!" design language.

We also haven't seen the Mac Mini revised except for processor upgrades in a while but they may also be killing it off since it seems to be on the Apple product silent death march path rather than the major revision path.

They definately didn't announce anything today that would have led to that analyst warning and corporations don't do those lightly since there are pretty strict SEC rules on them.

It is also possible that whatever announcement they'd planned has slipped. I don't know what the SEC rules are on timeliness on the announcements but I suspect they're more lenient about holding back a warning of a loss than of holding back increased profitability.

I would suspect that whatever it was that triggered the requirement for financial analyst notice has not been killed off as I suspect that would require notification.

Right now, it remains a mystery only known to Steve Jobs and his highest priests.

Oops

That should have read:

It is also possible that whatever announcement they'd planned has slipped. I don't know what the SEC rules are on timeliness on the announcements but I suspect they're more strict about holding back a warning of a loss than of holding back increased profitability.

Actually they axed 160Gb model which was kind a slap in the face. I was expecting atleast bigger 320Gb model but now biggest model Apple offers is 120Gb which isn't enough for current music library. Sadly Microsoft just doesn't have balls to bring Zune to Europe.

I think Apple are in danger of overdoing the event thing. The announcements were very incremental and, as Paul rightly says, the basic MP3 player market has matured. The Touch and the iPhone are where the action is now.

I do hope that they refresh at least some of their Mac line soon. Would like to see a Mac Midi. The mini is too limited, the MacPro is out of my price range and the iMac has a glossy screen that I couldn't live with.  Hence I am making do even though I have the itch to spend.

"No, it's not. You're either with Paul or with the bad guys."

Nice.  I guess I'm a bad person, because I'm not really with Paul on this one.  I'm "with" whoever provides the technology that helps me be more productive in my work and more connected and fulfilled in my personal life.  For me that includes tech from Apple, Microsoft, Adobe, Google, Sony, Nintendo, Canon, and a host of smaller companies that make useful and interesting products that support all of the  above.

To put on the blinkers and serve this whole thing up as some sort of big morality play strikes me as counterproductive and counterintuitive.  But, hey, that's just me.

When your only tool is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail.

WebGuy, if you still haven't figured it out, I was joking. The line I used was similar to one that Bush used to justify the Iraq war. Gosh! Do I have to explain everything?

"New" iPod touch. OK, they lowered the price. And they added back iPhone features like a speaker and external volume toggles that quite frankly should have been there in the first place. Do we salute Apple for that? No. No, we don't."

So the Touch had these features and then they were removed and now there back?  What other mainstream non-MP3 player has a speaker?  Does any Zune?  The speaker is for games......duh.

"Actually they axed 160Gb model which was kind a slap in the face."  I am going to take a wild guess here and say someone at Apple looked at sales figures and found that the 160gig did not sell enough to justify keeping it around.  It could even been costing them to do so.  Lets face it right now.  In 2-3 years the very most you will be hard pressed to find a HD based MP3 player at all.  I bet Apple switches to all flash before anyone else.  Some people will freak, but other manufactures will soon follow.  To go OT, I am betting that mainstream consumer Desktop/Notebooks will start dumping HD's with moving parts, for Flash based ones in 5 years.  Its comes that is for sure.

@sub "The touch is nice, but the equivalent video iPod and Zune equivalent is good enough."  

Lets be really honest here, and drop the superfanboy rhetoric for one moment.  If you were looking for MP3 player that played video really well, you would only be looking at the biggest Zune and the Touch.  In that case the Touch with its bigger screen and much larger content support would win hands down.  Especially considering the price drop.  Does the Zune store even sell video content yet?

"non-MP3 player has a speaker"  I meant to say non-phone MP3 player

Now, in the words of the New York Times, "both sides now say they got what they wanted." Put another way, Apple caved to NBC's reasonable and customer-centric demands and NBC got what it wanted. Bravo.

Not exactly.  NBC wanted variable pricing for shows of their choosing, and only got it when attached to HD (along with 99c for older series).

In return, Apple got NBC's content back, plus the return of iTunes marketing bugs on NBC shows.

Doesn't seem anyone "caved in" to anyone here.

How you view Apple as the "bad guy" here when they're trying to keep prices from arbitrary escalation (both for consumers *and* for their own self-interest) is beyond me.

Of course, Paul can't comment on this with getting in the obligatory iCabal fanatics digs and concludes with

"Oh, and one more thing. There was no one more thing. And that stinks. Because these announcements don't amount to much more than a cheerleading session for continued dominance."

Yah, kind of like the Microsoft Gates/Seinfeld commercial or the "Mojave Experiment". Of course, it's just peachy when Microsoft does that, but reprehensible from Apple.

Geez.

I think there are only two points worth noting about the current iPods, especially the iTouch:

1. Mobile gaming.

2. The App store.

As music players, these devices are mature, certainly. You can buy DRM-free music from multiple sources, play it, sort it, share it, find similar stuff. As music players, we're nearing the commodity level. The Zune is in a terrific fight for 3rd place in that market.

The interest is what else you can make of these things, and in that area Apple is far ahead.

bettieblu

"someone at Apple looked at sales figures and found that the 160gig did not sell enough to justify keeping it around"

Quite possibly, they only made the 160GB version because they had some thick cases left over so they bought enough of the bigger drives to use up the thick cases. Had it taken off they could have had another batch of thick, classic cases made but I'd suspect they never planned on continuing it past the inventory imbalance.

Whether you like the Zune or not, the fact is that iPods will continue to outsell it 50:1. So, why do Apple fanboys even bother with snarky comments like, "lipstick on a pig"? If you don't like it or don't think it fits your needs, don't buy it. Ignore it. You get irritated when someone brings up the Windows marketshare. That doesn't stop you or even his holiness from gloating about iPod's marketshare. You look at OS X vs Windows as a fight between David and Goliath and for that very reason, agree with and cheer on the smarmy remarks made about Vista. Yet, when it comes to the media player business, which is no doubt dominated by Apple, you cannot resist the urge to attack the Zune. Many of you confessed to hating Microsoft passionately and have even attempted to rationalize this hatred. Why not try ignoring inconsequential products like Zune in that case? That might help you. It's not like MS is forcing you to buy one.

Like chuck said, the real story with the touch is that it broadens the userbase for the application platform.  Apple's focus in the advertising on games... and the amazing quality of the graphics on the iPhone/iPod Touch platform is going to drive a whole new wave of adoption. Why have a DS or PS when the touch can do everything but make phone calls?

And if you're Microsoft and you want Windows Mobile to stay competitive as a platform against the iPhone, the iPod Touch is going to be right there with it.  So by the end of the year, Apple is likely to have exceeded their 10 million sales estimate, as I've said they would.  The real question is how many touches they've sold.  Could it be just as many?  If so, that would mean that in 2008, Apple may outsell the Windows Mobile platform with it's Cocoa Touch platform.

That's amazing... and it just doesn't get talked about enough.  The touch really has no equal.

On a side note.  It's good to see Steve admit to bugs and call dropping issues in the iPhone and I really REALLY hope the 2.1 update delivers, especially with the contacts loading and search speed.  Contacts on iPhone 2.0 is horrible.

"Yah, kind of like the Microsoft Gates/Seinfeld commercial or the "Mojave Experiment". Of course, it's just peachy when Microsoft does that, but reprehensible from Apple."

So these are the same as an Apple keynote/rally how?

Maybe MS should put a huge pie chart on a screen showing Windows dominance over OSX and then we can really watch your head explode. Or lets have some MS guys make snarky comments about Apple during a presentation. 300+ posts of righteous indignation from the fanatics is a guarantee.

Stuff that happens routinely from Apple with not a peep from its fans, because as we all well know that stuff is peachy when it comes from them.

But have Paul take a swipe at Apple, no matter how small, and its oh so sensitive userbase soils themselves.

@Paul

"Apple caved to NBC's reasonable and customer-centric demands"

Customer-centric? Are you sure?

So NBC wanted to charge some customers LESS .... and some customers MORE.

Do you really believe that NBC's plan was to make LESS MONEY?

The problem, Master, is that they try to portray themselves as the victims on this site and accuse Paul (and Mike) of unnecessarily harassing them.  They make it seem like the MS bullies are out to get them all the time. I've heard references to David and Goliath at least a couple of times. The fact that Paul has taken swipes at Microsoft is an unnecessary detail for them. They either ignore it totally or twist it saying, "Even Paul has criticized this so it must be really bad."

When the time comes,however, these very people are not averse to gloating over their marketshare or taking potshots at every small thing that comes out of Microsoft. They're the good guys, after all, so they deserve the high marketshare.

The fact is, these people demand special treatment everywhere they go by virtue of being Apple fans. They're used to being pampered and getting special treatment at most tech sites and cannot tolerate it when they don't get it here.

Paul is not always fair, but I have a feeling that some of his remarks are influenced by this behavior.

This was way off topic and I apologize for it.

@johnpapola, I dont think the Touch will ever reach the gaming to the level of the DS or PSP.  First off not enough buttons.  Second take a game like God of War for the PSP that fills a 2gig UMD disk.  You going to sync 2gig games to your Touch?  Certainly not going to buy them off of iTunes.

The Touch will do gaming and do it well.  Way better than anything the Zune/Windows Mobile can do right now, but Sony and Nintendo dont have anything to worry about.

I did see that Belkin? is making some kind of sleeve with buttons for the Touch, that will help gaming, but it was one of those rumor type photo's which equals a big fat rumor.

shark47  said:

Whether you like the Zune or not, the fact is that iPods will continue to outsell it 50:1. So, why do Apple fanboys even bother with snarky comments like, "lipstick on a pig"? If you don't like it or don't think it fits your needs, don't buy it. Ignore it. You get irritated when someone brings up the Windows marketshare. That doesn't stop you or even his holiness from gloating about iPod's marketshare. You look at OS X vs Windows as a fight between David and Goliath and for that very reason, agree with and cheer on the smarmy remarks made about Vista. Yet, when it comes to the media player business, which is no doubt dominated by Apple, you cannot resist the urge to attack the Zune. Many of you confessed to hating Microsoft passionately and have even attempted to rationalize this hatred. Why not try ignoring inconsequential products like Zune in that case? That might help you. It's not like MS is forcing you to buy one.

*******************************

Funny insert the word(s) PC of Windows for iPod/Apple and...

Because we all know only Apple supporters are fanatics, Windows supporters are ALWAYS models of tact and decorum.

@Mary,

Behold the face of bias.  In the absence of real information, Paul calls out Apple as "the bad guy" and takes NBC's word at face value.  That's an exemplary example of bias.  Honesty would mean saying that he doesn't know who wanted what. But since he comes from an "Apple lies" bias... this is the commentary we get.

@shark47 Paul grandstands/baits with his comments probably to generate readership, at least here.  Reading him and listening to him in other formats is actually quite different.

Mike, sorry that guy dominates these boards like crazy, with nothing but negative, I am right your are not comments.  According to tayme's calculations pretty much all day long.

Wow, Paul shut down that zune comments section quick.  Looks like he's taking a page from Apple's MobileMe blog playbook.

""Yah, kind of like the Microsoft Gates/Seinfeld commercial or the "Mojave Experiment". Of course, it's just peachy when Microsoft does that, but reprehensible from Apple."

So these are the same as an Apple keynote/rally how?

Maybe MS should put a huge pie chart on a screen showing Windows dominance over OSX and then we can really watch your head explode. Or lets have some MS guys make snarky comments about Apple during a presentation. 300+ posts of righteous indignation from the fanatics is a guarantee.

Stuff that happens routinely from Apple with not a peep from its fans, because as we all well know that stuff is peachy when it comes from them.

But have Paul take a swipe at Apple, no matter how small, and its oh so sensitive userbase soils themselves."

I don't mind criticism on legitimate issues. Lord knows the iPhone (for example) has plenty of things to criticize. Leopard was released with many, many bugs, so that's another legitimate target.

What I object to---and it makes Paul look childish and silly---is the constant, extraneous repetition of these pejoratives. What purpose is served? What content is added?

Furthermore, endorsing it in this little echo chamber that Paul calls a "blog" just moves you guys farther from reality. The fact that there are Mac nuts is certainly true, but you'll never find a bigger concentration of WinNuts than right here.

You don't get rational commentary by attacking the zealots through your own zealotry. Paul should do better and so should the dittoheads here.

All I know is I'm finally replacing all if my ipods including the touch for zunes. The only think keeping me from doing this before was my big audible collection. If we all buy at least on this xmas I bet bigger zune market bigger support for it. Plus I got rid of iTunes long ago and been using a script for moving songs in and out of my ipods. GOD I HATE ITUNES

@bettie,

I'm not saying that the touch/iphone can replace the DS/PSP for everyone.  What I'm saying is that it's gaming capabilities are in the same league with both.  And while the buttons issue is a big one for now with many game types, I expect an accessory will be coming soon to fix that.  This was the "one more thing" I was hoping to see, and it would've gone nicely with the gaming-centered ad.  

Apple needs to really REALLY learn from Microsoft here.   Gaming matters.  It's bigger than hollywood.  They are focusing on it now, and that's a good sign, but John Carmack has expressed concern that Apple has been a fair-weather friend to gaming in the past.  This does seem different though.  An Apple-made, first party controller add-on with standardized SDK support would seal the deal.  They should have announced that yesterday along with support for it in the 2.1 update.

As for the file sizes... have you notice the size of movie files from iTunes?  1.5GB.  I don't consider this an issue.  It's actually a benefit.  Load up your touch with media and games.  No discs to cart around.  Still, the PSP is a more hardcore gaming device and will have it's place.

The DS does have something to worry about though.  Between it's touch controls and a library that is more focused on casual gaming like Nintendogs and Brainage, the Touch could put some serious hurt on Nintendo.  Think about it.  The DS can't do media or internet or anything else that the touch does.  But the Touch beats the DS on graphics (it seems very close to the PSP on the graphics front), it beats the DS on screen size and storage.  And it matches (and exceeds) the DS in the non-button UI.

I have a DS and enjoyed it for a while.  I found myself playing the mario minigames that were touch based WAY more than anything else.  The people I see on the subway with DS's everyday seem to be playing similar games.  The touch can give the DS a major run for it's money in that casual market and somewhat beyond.

On a side note, those new inner-earbuds look great.  If they sound really good, they're a value at $79.

OT:  I'm exec producing the promotion for the VGAs this year and would love to hear what you guys think about the future of gaming.  By that I mean a few things.  What do you look forward to in the near-term (titles, new gameplay elements like the motion plus, etc).  Where do you imagine gaming going in 10 years?  Where would you like it to go?  Email me via my website with thoughts or ideas.  We're (spike) looking to really focus on getting big exclusive first looks at upcoming titles.  

@chuck,

I like your style.

"Because we all know only Apple supporters are fanatics, Windows supporters are ALWAYS models of tact and decorum. "

NO all Apple supporters are not fanatics. Many Apple supporters are level-headed folks that live their life and dont spend their time attacking other products and the people that use them.

But the most vocal, hard-core, supporters are the fanatics and zealots that make up the vast majority of those that post regularly on sites like this, that do engage in attacks from dawn till dusk on anything that isnt from or of Apple.

LOL iTunes 8 already making life harder

www.engadget.com/.../itunes-8-kills-airtunes-ipod-touch-causing-bsod

"We were all excited to stream Genius-generated playlists from iTunes 8 to our Airport Express last night when -- poof -- "-3256 Unknown Error Occurred." This cryptic error, along with another under the equally descriptive name "-15000," has been keeping iTunes 8 upgraders from using their Airtunes on remote speakers. Turns out the issue is one of Firewalls and Firmware. The solutions come from users at Apple's discussion boards. Basically, you need to either turn off your Firewall and / or allow iTunes to accept incoming requests or update your Airport Express to the latest (6.3 as of this post) firmware version. Meanwhile, Windows-based iPod touch users are seeing Blue Screens of Death when plugging in their players due to some other undocumented problem. The solution there looks to be a reboot with the touch plugged in to force the system to recognize the device, run a sync, and turn off photo syncing (not the most elegant solution, clearly). Let's hope Apple at least updates this with something more descriptive than "-3256" in the future. Customer service reps at Apple say they're aware of the problems and are working on a fix."

>>LOL iTunes 8 already making life harder

www.engadget.com/.../itunes-8-kills-airtunes-ipod-touch-causing-bsod<<

This is why I say *always* wait before installing the latest of any Apple software product.

>>But the most vocal, hard-core, supporters are the fanatics and zealots that make up the vast majority of those that post regularly on sites like this, that do engage in attacks from dawn till dusk on anything that isnt from or of Apple. <<

Same with Windows.  Same with Linux.

The other threads got locked...

Even caught off guard to Fry's leak, Microsoft clearly caught Apple with their pants down. NBC content was expected as the chatter on that has been coming for months. The Zune now has support for games and Audible.com. Its slowly but surely reaching parity with iTunes but it has one ace up its sleeve. The subscription model, which Apple still has yet to embrace. Put bluntly, this Apple event was a cheerleading session and here's some redo's on our existing lines. Nothing completely new, just a few revamps.

Zune is the big winner today and boy are our resident Mac fans are not happy. None of them have any thick skins to stand any criticism of Apple what so ever. Who would have ever thought that such supposedly affluent, supposedly better educated, supposedly open minded, supposedly thinking differently, and supposedly better computers than the rest of us would actually come off so unenlightened?

Why can't two different platforms coexist peacefully? I could careless if you bought a Mac or iPod. Same for a PC or a Zune. Heck, depending on the type of work the person is doing, I recommend what I feel is typically better PC for the job. If they're doing photography, cinema, music recording, and similar work set; I often recommend a Mac. If you're doing games, office work, enjoying/recording electronic media, need a large software ecosystem, easy hardware upgradeability, and want to spend under a grand; I generally recommend they go with Windows.

Paul is right about thing, its not really about Mac vs Windows anymore. Today, the lines are no longer just black and white. Its blurred with shades of grey. I am a Windows user who uses iPod/iTunes. I use Quicktime right along side Windows Media Player. I use Java, Flash, Silverlight, and whatever else I need. I could easily switch to a Mac, but still use Vista/XP. I could easily go to Zune and not worry about it. In the end, it doesn't change a damn thing.

Microsoft 15 years later is still the king of the hill and Apple is number two. They coexist because both need each other. Perhaps they work together to keep things the way they are because its good for business? Ever think of that?

FYI: the big problem that seems to be happening with iTunes 8 on Vista appears to only happen when you have both an iPod or iPhone attached and also have an HP printer. Apparently, disconnecting either the Apple device or the HP printer will allow the system to run without a driver crash at least long enough to get back to a stable state.

I'm guessing nobody at Apple's limited Windows alpha test group has an HP printer. It's this kind of configuration testing that gets detected in a decent sized beta.

The lack of beta testing made limited marketing sense when they were willing to risk bugs to protect Dear Leader's rollout speeches but now that those speeches are getting to be quick demos of things everybody already knows about and Apple's reputation is becoming "don't ever install a .0 release", perhaps it's time to rethink the whole testing/secrecy balance.

>>Its blurred with shades of grey<<

Well said.

Still haven't found the firmware 2.1 news for the iphone...

@Mike:

I guess Apple should've had their devices and software certified than, shouldn't they?  ;)

I like this post:

msmvps.com/.../our-master-is-business.aspx

@subzero - Good post. Right on about the peaceful coexistence. I feel the same way, and I tire of the zealots on both sides. Right now mikegalos has taken his credibility and flushed it with his refusal to bend on any subject...even those that he admittedly knows little about. His tactic is to keep moving the target, to make himself appear correct. That is as bad as any of the "iCabal" have ever been.

--tayme

Wae, it's OT, but >>But Opera, start living in the real world of business decision makers.  We don't read RFPs.  We don't tout them as being a religion. <<  is a really silly statement.

What if we didn't have standards for electrical outlets?  The whole wide world is made easier for having standards.

daveinla

Here's one: gizmodo.com/.../iphone-21-update-coming-friday-less-call-drops-crashes-faster-sync-better-battery-life

Wae,

I did like, "Heck if IE 5.5 was compliant we'd have no XmlHttpRequest and where would we be now?"

funny Apple's website still mentions firmware 2.0.2 as current for the iPhone and doesn't even mention the 2.1 firmware. And don't really trust sites like gizmodo other than for rumors. But I found the info on Hardmac... they must know about it I guess... my bad !!!

daveinla

It was part of Steve Jobs' keynote so you can see pictures of the slides from just about anyone that was livecasting it or watch the video.

I suspect Apple's not going to put a lot of promotion for it on their site since that would be publicizing that the iPhone 2 is buggy enough to justify a keynote mention of a bug fix.

"The whole wide world is made easier for having standards."

Standards aren't always what some governing body says it should be though.  In the context of web standards, the real "standard" is that brought forth by Microsoft, since IE has the most marketshare and has been adopted worldwide in more businesses than you can shake your fist at!

If you want another example, Apple fanboys would say the iPod is the "standard" to which all other MP3 player manufacturers should look up to.

Daveinla

www.appleinsider.com/.../ipod_2_1_offers_promise_for_fridays_big_iphone_software_update.html

www.macworld.com/.../iphone21.html

Personally, I am not loyal to a platform, since I feel that the platform must be loyal to me. After all, it's my money. I like the Mac OS for personal stuff, but now Vista is very interchangable for my needs, so the future may be a price issue. Also, I have never hidden the fact that I use all Windows at work and you can infer that I know that Windows butters my bread. It the past performance of my home use that kept me in the Mac OS.. As stated above, that performance curve is pretty well matched by Vista now, and if I every need a new laptop, for my personal useage items, the less expensive Vista laptops will be just fine.

That brings me back to OT where I have found that the cheaper Sansa MP3 players have been a great buy for my kids. It's funny how they can't tell the diference between Windows andMac OS with their limited useage. They click a browser icon and away they go.

My wife couldn't care less what she uses for an MP3 player, as long as it matches her outfit.

Glad you're feeling better Shark. I got a lttle more to go. Mike, stay healthy [you're around my age].

There are default standards, true.  But they can cause  problems when they are not published/or cannot easily be used by others.

>> I am not loyal to a platform, since I feel that the platform must be loyal to me. After all, it's my money.<<

Well said.

>>It's funny how they can't tell the diference between Windows andMac OS with their limited useage. They click a browser icon and away they go.<<

Leo Laporte told Paul the same thing:  His daughter jumps on Google Docs from any available browser.

>>My wife couldn't care less what she uses for an MP3 player, as long as it matches her outfit.<<

Hmmm.  :)

DRWAM

I do try to avoid all those things that I've found are dangerous (exercise, sleep, vegetables, going an hour without caffeine, etc)

Seems to work.

:-)

@Mike,

"The lack of beta testing made limited marketing sense when they were willing to risk bugs to protect Dear Leader's rollout speeches but now that those speeches are getting to be quick demos of things everybody already knows about and Apple's reputation is becoming "don't ever install a .0 release", perhaps it's time to rethink the whole testing/secrecy balance"

That's a pretty good point.  Especially now that iTunes is on Windows and running on a massive variety of machines.

BTW:  Why is there never any mention that Apple doesn't WHQL-certify their hardware and software for Windows???!?  It is their biggest customer base after all....

Hold on a sec....I wonder if all PMP's that get WHQL certification are required to support WMP and PlaysForSure DRM....

That's likely the reason why Apple won't do it!

I haven't had my "iCabal koolaid" (TM) yet  today, you guys might want to look here for an interesting commentary on the ipod event yesterday:

http://daringfireball.net/

"One thing that wasn’t mentioned, though, and which has figured prominently in past music-related special events, was growth. In past events, the overview of iPod sales has included charts showing tremendous year-over-year sales growth. Not yesterday. Instead, the charts emphasized only market share and total unit sales since 2001. The news there is good — Apple has sold a grand total of 160 million iPods sinc 2001 and today commands 73.4 percent of the U.S. retail market (followed by Sandisk at 8.6 percent and Microsoft at 2.6) — but the lack of any braggadocio regarding growth indicates that the market is saturated."

Now, Gruber is one of the usual suspects for iCabal-hood, isn't he? Hmm, sounds pretty rational to me. He also notes that iPod sales are probably flattening because of the iPhone (which isn't counted as an IPod, even though it does the same thing), and because the market may finally be saturating.

Now to give Paul credit where it is due: He long ago predicted that iPod (and mp3 players in general) would saturate because the functionality would be melded into a phone. Of course, he predicted that iPods would go extinct and never thought that Apple would produce a phone. Still, the convergence is finally happening and the stand-alone mp3 player market may be just about full, or at least has achieved commodity status.

It would be interesting to know how many purchasers of the new iPods are repeat purchasers vs. new customers, but I don't know where to get trustworthy numbers on that.

"That's a pretty good point.  Especially now that iTunes is on Windows and running on a massive variety of machines."

Because most people don't really care. The average Joe and Jane won't care unless someone runs ads that point it out to them or it is reported in the mainstream media. I think people expect software to be imperfect at times because they know a fix will be on the way.

MIke, the docs in my reading room are rolling on the floor. Also, I do EXACTLY the same.Except trying to maintain my hercules statis until the grave by heavy lifting. Just remember that I like roses at my funeral and toss a cheesesteak with a coffee in the coffin:)

Doc

Die young and leave a better looking corpse.

@Chuck,

John Gruber is a very rational, very critical Apple-centric blogger.  Paul hates him because he's put Paul on his "jackass" list on more than one occasion.  Whatever.  I think calling thousands of people "bad people" without knowing them is pretty jacktastic myself.

But this is the shining example of how full of BS this "iCabal" bigotry really is.  Paul certainly lumps Gruber in, yet Gruber's clearly a loud and frequent critic of any and all real Apple problems.  That, logically, invalidates the entire premise of Paul Thurrotts "iCabal".  No matter though.  Biased slander need not have any logic.

john, I guess it's all right for john to call Paul a jackass, but it's"jacktastic" for Paul to call someone an iCabalist.

Which world are you living in? MacWorld?

A little treat from the great wikipedia on "strawman" arguments. This will sounds VERY familiar on this site:

In contrast the straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.

2. Person B ignores X and instead presents position Y.

Y is a distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:

A. Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position and then refuting it, thus giving the appearance that the opponent's actual position has been refuted.

B. Quoting an opponent's words out of context — i.e., choosing quotations that are not representative of the opponent's actual intentions (see contextomy and quote mining).

C. Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender and then refuting that person's arguments, thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position, and thus the position itself, has been defeated.

D.  Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticized, such that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical. AKA - the iCabal.

E. Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking the simplified version.

3. Person B attacks position Y.

4. Person B draws a conclusion that X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself.

>>Now, Gruber is one of the usual suspects for iCabal-hood, isn't he? <<

No, he's almost always level-headed.  He and Paul sometimes don't see eye to eye:

daringfireball.net/.../jackass_paul_thurrott

daringfireball.net/.../command_option_control

and it also goes in the opposite direction:

www.internet-nexus.com/.../weve-never-even-heard-of-this-john.htm

He has a different take on the NBC thing than the current blog post does:

>>It’s hard to see that NBC gained much of anything in the form of concessions from Apple.

--

NBC also wanted variable pricing for its shows. They sort of got that, in that library content — old shows like “The A-Team” — are available for just $1 per episode. But NBC also wanted to raise prices for episodes of popular new shows, and that did not happen. Standard-def episodes of all new shows on iTunes remain at $2.

High-def shows are $3, but that’s not variable pricing — it’s the same for all HD shows, not just NBC’s, and as far as I can see all HD TV shows in the iTunes Store are also available in SD. There are no shows which are only available in HD.

It’s a win for everyone — Apple, NBC, and customers — that NBC shows are back, but there’s nothing NBC has today that they wouldn’t have had if they’d never pulled their shows from iTunes a year ago — except for millions of dollars in lost revenue.

<<

"Of course, he predicted that iPods would go extinct and never thought that Apple would produce a phone."

He also predicted iTunes would die when presented with real competition from Buymusic.com. He also has a few misguided entries in the Apple Death Knell Counter.

But I give Paul credit for putting his opinions out there for public consumption. He guesses big--and more often than not, he comes close to the bullseye. If he has a failing, it's that he often cloaks his wishful thinking in his predictions.

You can continue to portray yourselves as a victim of some MS conspiracy, but the fact remains that there is a iCabal (or whatever you choose to call it) which is out to discredit any entity that dares to go against Apple. John, you seem like a reasonable person, but you are exactly like Mike, in that, you refuse to change your opinion in the face of irrefutable evidence and go on and on about this alleged smear campaign, which makes you appear fanatical. I'm not saying Paul is entirely unbiased, but just like Bill O'Reilly and Keith Olbermann need and deserve each other, Paul and Gruber deserve each other too. There is a dearth of bloggers on the Windows site who calls out these Mac and Linux nutjobs for what they are.

@Waethorn

""The whole wide world is made easier for having standards."

Standards aren't always what some governing body says it should be though.  In the context of web standards, the real "standard" is that brought forth by Microsoft, since IE has the most marketshare and has been adopted worldwide in more businesses than you can shake your fist at!

If you want another example, Apple fanboys would say the iPod is the "standard" to which all other MP3 player manufacturers should look up to."

That is.....so wrong!

Standards are never defined by one company and letting Microsoft, or anyone else get away with such a thing is a detriment to us all. In fact, this is the main thing I detest about Microsoft, the "embrace, extend, pollute, control" approach to standard data formats.

Lets see: .doc, .xls. .ppt, Exchange, DirectX (which polluted the perfectly fine OpenGL).

These formats are how Microsoft gets their evil tendrils into EVERYTHING. It's wrong, it slows progress and it hurts Windows users too, by stifling competition.

And, I don't endorse it from Apple either. They're guilty too, althoug not to the same extent. The notable sin is the DRM'ed AAC files on the iTunes store. Those will only play on the iPod and the failure to license Fairplay for "security' reasons is utterly specious. Of course, that's an argument that has about run its course, because DRM-free music is now available from multiple sources and can be played on anything.

MIcrosoft is slowly, with gritted teeth, being forced to give up on closed, proprietary data formats and standards. Eventually, this will be a good thing for all, including Microsoft, since it will force them to compete.

Please, something that all users should agree on is the avoidance of single company proprietary data formats and standards. It doesn't matter if such things come from Microsoft, Apple, Google, Adobe, etc. Do you really want to cede control of your data to a single company?

John and others, that "little treat from the great wikipedia" sounds like my wife and all my old girlfriends.

"In contrast the straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern:....

1. Person A has position X.

2. Person B ignores X and instead presents position Y.

....

3. Person B attacks position Y."

Your argument about straw man arguments, is, um...a straw man argument, straw man.

Chuck, thos e are some tough points. There's one side that makes you wonder why a company should give up proprietary work that they have spent money and years to develop, as well as risks dealing with open platforms which may be easier for hackers to conquer. That's a real tough decision for society.

Mike and Wae have a little more insight than the rest of us, so hopefully they are still at this psot to give us some plusses and minuses about it.

"DirectX (which polluted the perfectly fine OpenGL)"

There's a laugh.  DirectX is pushing video card development - not OpenGL.  OpenGL is still 3 steps behind DirectX in supporting new technologies.  There's a reason why NVIDIA is a huge Microsoft partner.  Microsoft makes new DirectX versions based on designs that NVIDIA come up with (and vice versa).  OpenGL is a legacy API that only outdated 3D rendering apps and John Carmack use.  Even the latest versions of Autocad has support of some of the latest rendering technologies that Direct3D provides that OpenGL doesn't (I know - I just deployed 20 workstation systems to a client with Vista x64, Autocad 64-bit, and NVIDIA Quadro video cards).

"The notable sin is the DRM'ed AAC files on the iTunes store"

The more noteable sin is non-DRM files still in AAC format, rather than being in the more-compatible MP3 format.  I have yet to see a stock car CD-player support AAC, where it supports MP3 (and even WMA).

"Please, something that all users should agree on is the avoidance of single company proprietary data formats and standards."

That argument is moot, since Microsoft licenses out many of it's so-called "proprietary" technologies.  If they make a buck on it, SO WHAT?!?  Does Apple license out the Quicktime file format, even though they use H.264 as their primary codec for HD?  No.  They require full API licensing.  That's called twisting an open format toward their own benefit.  If they gave all of their trade secrets away, then all we'd have is more 3rd-rate open-source Linux distributors that set the computer industry back another 20 years.

Last time I looked, Apple had several proprietary technologies hidden behind the BSD license.  If they licensed their technologies through the GPL, they wouldn't be in that position.

>>Do you really want to cede control of your data to a single company?<<

Great point.  

I think that there are some misues of words going on here and that is causing some confusion.

Standards are a set of "rules" for completing a process or function. Usually agreed upon by a consortium.

A standard, on the other hand is something that is accepted as the norm.

Of couse there are other uses for the word...but I don't think that a flag or the amount of metal in a given coin is what is being discussed here.

Oh, and Doc - While Waethorn and mikegalos are knowledgeable, they are much to biased to rationally comment.

--tayme

@chuckb84 you cant blame Apple for DRM.  If anything they wanted to dump it before MS did.

www.apple.com/.../thoughtsonmusic

In fact I think Jobs letter to the world prevoked the music companies that now award Amazon DRM music but not Apple.  Which of course just hurts them because if Apple could sell it they would make more money with its in stall base.

"Standards are a set of "rules" for completing a process or function. Usually agreed upon by a consortium.

A standard, on the other hand is something that is accepted as the norm."

Now you're starting to talk like pappy.

Your definition of the plural contradicts the definition of the singular.

encarta.msn.com/.../standard.html

@Waethorn - "Your definition of the plural contradicts the definition of the singular."

Which is exactly what you did above -

"Standards aren't always what some governing body says it should be though.  In the context of web standards, the real "standard" is that brought forth by Microsoft, since IE has the most marketshare and has been adopted worldwide in more businesses than you can shake your fist at!"

--tayme

@DRWAM they dont have to give up their work.  The idea behind standards is simple.

Lets just take word processing.  If every word processor (current versions say with last 3 years) could open a document based on a standard then companies would compete for your money based on things like usability, speed, must have features etc.

Right now if your word processor cant work with .doc files with 100% compatibility then you are at a disadvantage.  A consumer might only need the features of free Open Office, or iWork at $69 but must spend $150 + for Office just to be compatible.

With a standard document format, I could pick what I need to create a document, based on what I really needed.  In my case I probably use about 30% of what Word can do and so I might opt for something else.  On the other hand if Word had some really nice features that the others did not, I might spend more.  Of if Word was really fast, etc.

Office products are a cash cow for MS and so they will NEVER really want a real standard that forces them to compete on features and price alone.  This is the "MS Lock" that makes people mad.

You could go down the same path with Email.  Exchange is a great product, but it uses proprietary protocols, forcing many to license its API's, like Active Sync. If there was an open standard the consumer would benefit more for sure.

"A consumer might only need the features of free Open Office, or iWork at $69 but must spend $150 + for Office just to be compatible."

Last time I looked, they sell Office Home & Student 2007 RETAIL at Staples for $100.  That's the copy that's good for 3 PC's.

That's ~$8.33 for Word/PC, if you want to break each app into separate pricing.  I think that's affordable for most.  Better start saving your pennies....

"iWork at $69"

I have yet to see any other program that supported Pages documents, if you want to look at it that way.

bettieblu,

I'm sure your comment will win you a lot of support from your socialist friends.

If Porsche and other car manufacturers (including Lotus) had shared all technical details with other manufacturers, I'm sure it would've benefited consumers in the short term, but it would have killed innovation in the long term because there would be no incentive to innovate. Even Google, a strong proponent of open standards keeps its own ranking algorithm proprietary.

I think there's a place for both open and proprietary formats in our society.

Best news on this list was that Steve Jobs is okay. (Note that this would have been true even if he announced that, hm... OS X would be going open hardware or something outrageous.)

Honestly, I don't see why people were so down on his health. If you are worried about Steve Jobs health, then don't invest in Apple. Simple as that. Don't go shouting that the man is going to die.

The iPod thing on the other hand, was obvious. The Zune has a good form factor in its flash-based players. Apple saw this. End of story.

Now what are we supposed to do with the Laser? Wasn't Microsoft supposed to have a mouse related thing?

@waethorn, I agree Apple, Open Office all of them would have to support the standard.  Dont be so defensive.

I use Word as an obvious example because  .doc is the de-facto standard and if any company is even thinking about switching the nightmare of converting thousands of documents is usually the big stop.  I remember the days of doing large scale Word Perfect to Word conversions.

@shark "I'm sure your comment will win you a lot of support from your socialist friends."  Does J@k @$$ run in the family or are your panties in a knot?

You missed the point completely, even more so by using an analogy that involves automobiles.  The automobile industry is full of standards.  I mean simply a 10mm wrench works on both a Porche and a Lotus.

I never said MS should give out the code for Office for everyone to copy.  Not at all.  Nor Apple or any other vendor.  However should use a standard document format, and that is what the governments of the world want.  If Office  is so great and priced right then why not support the open doc standard????

Reality is many companies and individuals would move away from it, unless the price came down.  Waethorn can quote student prices all day, or find a link to some deal, but day to day prices say from a big distributor like CDW, Office is still more expensive.  And all of its more expensive than OpenOffice.

Now I think Office is way better than OpenOffice that is for sure, and I would probably pay for it.  However if the was a true document standard I bet you would see more competition for sure.

Wae, you LIAR, I bought MS Office 2004 with a free upgrade to 2008 for under $50 after an MS rebate, while my buddy got his for $29 from Amazon. I got the edition that supports Exchange which has a suggested retail of a few hundred. Thankyou Redmond! Yeh, I Wae,  I'm cheap. Also, most colleges offer Office for free or for a really reduced price. Obviously Wae, I was just teasing you.

I am using LiveMeeting right now, to attend my Physicians IT meeting. They dumped GE and found a Microsoft product to create a digital hospital system for 3 hospitals! This is considerably less costly and the big thing is Computer Order Entry. This will rid 50% of all serious/fatal medical errors!!!!! Again, thank you Redmond for saving lives [and help make me wealthy]. Digital record management obviously is a key structure too. They will save millions of dollars, since GE wanted $81 million. This is incredible.

bettieblu,

Yes, the automobile industry is full of standards, but it's not a 10mm nut that defines the Porsche or Lotus or an Audi. It's technologies like quattro, which is proprietary. The reason that exchange is so popular is not because Microsoft forced customers to use it. Where I used to work earlier, we actually moved from an in house commercial product to Microsoft Outlook because it was better. Even in my current company, we moved from Lotus Notes to Outlook. It's not because Microsoft forced us to. It's because their technology was better.

BTW, I don't know why you had to take cheap shots at my family.

@Doc,

"John and others, that "little treat from the great wikipedia" sounds like my wife and all my old girlfriends."

Hilarious!  So true!  My wife is pretty good though, I must admit.

Hey man if you cant take it dont start labeling people.  You don't know I am socialist any more than I know your J@k @$$.  

To your point a file format does not define Microsoft Word.  The program its features, capabilities, and quality do.  Have the best scripting language (VBA vs Applescript) or best grammer checker or whatever.   Compete on that, and let users have a standard file format.

Dude, if you cannot read English, that's not my problem. Don't assume things. I never called you a socialist. I said your socialist friends will like the idea of everything being open. Moreover, I didn't drag your family into this by calling them names. OK? In any case, there's a difference between calling you a socialist and telling me that my family is full of jackasses. I would expect an apology for that from you, but I don't think I'll get one.

Regarding your argument about Office, do you think Office became popular because of the .doc file format in the first place? It's like saying iPods are popular because of the .aac format. Moreover, the Office 2007 file format - Office Open XML is a free and open standard.

Anyway, my argument was that there are some things that should be standardized and some that should remain proprietary.

@Waethorn

"OpenGL is a legacy API that only outdated 3D rendering apps and John Carmack use."

Hmm. John Carmack is actually a pretty good endorsement of OpenGL!

On this point of standards, we really should try to find some common ground that has nothing to do with Apple, Microsoft, or any other single company. Microsoft has historically used this to force their products on people who don't want them. Office and Exchange are the best examples.

I don't CARE if you want to use Windows/Office/Exchange, etc. I care A LOT if Microsoft uses proprietary data formats to foist their crap on people who don't want it. To make the WinDudes happy, I feel the same way when Apple does it.

Open standards and data interoperability are the keys to everyone getting to use what they like, without the heavy hand of Microsoft (for office apps) or Apple (for music).

We have this thing called the "internet" and it works well for everyone. Why? Mainly because the data transport and description layers do NOT CARE what computer is on the end of the wire (tcp/ip and HTML, etc). This success is hard to argue with.

It is a common interest of all computer users to support open file formats and non-proprietary transport protocols.

The comment earlier has it -precisely- correct: Microsoft and others can compete on how they let you manipulate the data (ie, the features in Word, Excel, etc), not by locking you in via a proprietary format.

You do all realize that, if you go back far enough in time, Word will not read its own files? Furthermore, the distance you have to travel in time for this to be true is not that far! This is totally unacceptable. My Phd thesis was done with a thing called "TeX". Twenty four years later, I can still read those files (not that my thesis really matters to many people at this point!).

You can't trust your data to one company. This statement is independent of which company you are talking about. For example, my major reticence about Google docs is trusting them as custodians. Sure, they say "Don't be evil", but that's a slogan, not a guarantee.

You can't trust Microsoft on this issue, or anyone else. OPEN data standards are the beadrock on which all computing advances must rest.

I can't believe this is even slightly controversial. It's obvious....

Just to repeat that line from Gruber again... for Paul.

"But NBC also wanted to raise prices for episodes of popular new shows, and that did not happen. Standard-def episodes of all new shows on iTunes remain at $2."

So "customer-centric" NBC wanted to raise prices .... and "bad-guys" Apple didn't let them. Not only is Paul's spin just plain wrong, but it's also pretty stupid. Even though it would only be pennies a show, Apple would have probably profited by acceding to NBC's original demands.

Is it really so bad to be called a socialist anyway?

As for the open file formats of office 2007, they are quite overdue.

The trouble that I see with proprietary file formats is that there's the possibility of whatever software needed to read/create the files, may one day not be available. You could then end up in a situation where you have loads of important files, that have become useless.

I bang my head against walls about this reagularly, as the facility where I work has loads (and i mean LOADS - several exabytes) of multi-track audio data "backed up" in proprietary file formats, from SADiE, RADAR, ProTools workstations etc etc.

Now that we've moved from SADiE systems, we have to keep a limping old machine around to be able to retreive archival copies. Soon, RADAR will also be retired, and yet, we'll have to keep the hardware around just to read the old data.

Had they all used standard WAV files, or AES31 (which of course never existed back then) then we could still open them in any system forevermore.

THAT, as I see it, is the main "against" argument for proprietary file formats.

Hell, just ask Abbey Road, who've got a load of archival materials from various sources, that they can't play any more.

Someone raised a point here about people using only 10% of the features in Office. I don't know if Paul brought this up in his show or if I heard it somewhere You can talk about feature creep in MS Office. But has anyone wondered that this feature creep occurs because people actually want them? As someone who works in the software industry, I know that this is the case. Different clients demand a different feature set. So, you can either have a customized solution for each client, which is a very expensive and time consuming solution or add features if enough people ask for it.

MS is not forcing its clients to use Office or Exchange or even Live Meeting (in Doc's case). People use it because it's either cheaper than the alternative or fits their requirements better.  

The new iPods.

120 Classic iPod.   They dropped the 160 Gb because it wasn't selling, the 120 split the difference so today you get 40 Gb more for the same price.  Truly the iPod classic has been played out, the click wheel interface is at the limits of what can easily and seamlessly be incorporated into a small device.

New nano.  The new nano is better than the fat nano, I always thought the fat nano looked awkward.  The new one is a return to the Gen I nano design.  The addition of a accelerometer makes the display actually useful for watching video clips.  I would still argue that it is too small of a screen for anything other than a thirty second joke clip.  Bang to shuffle is simply a way to show that the accelerometer is in their.  

New iPod Touch. Still a much better product than ANY zune.  True web browser, the best interface of any portable media device.  and now significantly cheaper.

The new zunes.  The zunes have in some ways caught up to the classic iPod and iPod Nano, and in some ways surpassed them.  The overall user interface still lacks a click wheel, which I still believe is an excellent way to scroll through a lot of information.  But overall the zune and iPod UI are both quite good.  Many users on this site hate and I mean hate iTunes.  The hatred borders on pathological.  That being said, I believe both the software for the Zune and iTunes have enough features to manage even large music collections.

The zune has an FM tuner.  This feature has been missing, since the creation of the iPod.  Much to many people's chagrin.  I do actually think the idea that of hearing a song and being able to either download it immediately or mark it for later download is actually a good idea.  I will however reserve judgement for the feature because poor implementation could be a deal killer.  A good feature done badly, is in some ways worse than not having the feature at all.  

iTunes still doesn't support a music rental option.  (On a side note, I really hate how both pundits, and the music industry call the schemes a subscription.  If it were a subscription you'd actually get to keep some or all of the songs you download.  If I subscribe to a magazine, I don't have to return the magazines when the subscription lapses.)  I personally don't feel that the rental option offers much a value for the consumer, at the current prices.  Perhaps if the price were dropped to 1/2 what it currently is it would, the value of two million possible downloads would overcome the fact that you don't own anything.  

So in the final analysis the Zune has two good features that the iPod classic and nano doesn't.  Wifi ability to buy songs on the fly, and an FM tuner.  (The first zune wasted it wifi capability on being able to squirt a DRM laden song to other non-existent zune users.) One of these can be overcome with an add on, the other can't.  Is this enough to cut into iPod sales?  No because the pricing is the same and the additional features are not compelling enough to cut into the iPod sales features.

This is especially true since Apple seems to be focussing its efforts on the touch.  Which although it still lacks an FM tuner, has a better interface, and more features than the zune can't touch.  (pun intended)  In addition the touch has an entry level price thirty dollars below the zune.  

The issue of Standards.

For those that think that MS is a developer who promotes standards, please don't make me laugh, ALL technology companies have used proprietary formats to try to tie consumers to their products at one time or another.  

Truth be told, in some ways you don't want standards at the formation of any new technology, what you want is the market to determine which technology is going to win.  Thus, when screw machines were first invented a large number of different types sizes and strengths of screws nuts and bolts came into being.  Over time though, standardization helped to create a market place that benefited consumers.  So today you can walk into any hardware store an purchase a standard bolt that will meet certain standards.

Now if you argue that the MS .doc format is a standard, fine.  But did MS publish the standard?  They do now, but they didn't.  I'm not arguing that MS should be forced to publish the code for office, I am arguing that if MS wants to call .doc a standard it should have to publish the specs for it.  Now in the case of office .xml there is some controversy if MS published enough information for competitors to make a word processor that can actually be 100% compatible.  

Finally, I love how Waethorn argues that AAC isn't a standard, first in my mind a standard is something that any company can implement nearly perfectly (I say nearly simply because absolute perfection is impossible.)  For example, the .mpeg 2 video standard, is a standard because ANY company can create a device that will play mpeg video.  Thus, Apple can create a video player, Microsoft can create a video player, Real, etc.  All they have to do is pay the licensing fee, (clearly not all standards have or need a licensing fee.)  Thus, since AAC is open and implementable by any technology company it is a viable real standard.    

Second I would argue that a true standard exists only when it is controlled either by a consortium of companies, governmental body, or an industry trade group.  When a single entity controls the standard and has the ability to change the standard at any time, than it really isn't a standard.  One of the benefits of standards is that the evolve slowly, and this slow evolution can only be guaranteed by a system that requires input from a variety of stake holders.  

Third, since standards evolve so slowly, they should only be implemented when the technology is sufficiently mature.  Thus, although a .doc standard would have been nice in 1992, doing so would have retarded the development of many good features in word processors.  Thus, although I despise active x controls and many of the defacto standards that MS implemented in IE, I honestly feel that the internet and .html was not sufficiently advanced enough to fully adopt standards that would have allowed for the types of technologies that have been developed on the internet.  That being said, the various technologies have matured enough, and MS refusal, or foot dragging is simply an attempt to maintain market share at the expense of consumers.

Regards

Joe Dokes

Joe Dokes

Joe Dokes - The guy so nice, they named him twice! :-)

--tayme

What? What? I don't don't understand stand!

Nope tayme, it was just an echo post. It happens when the moon is in the 7th house, and Jupiter lies west Mars...

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