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Why should any software installed by a user ever be *allowed* to cause an entire OS to crash? The OS should prevent such things from happening. I mean that's the point of it being the OS, that it remains in control at all times.

Well, the "Get a Mac" ads say that Vista is unstable and crashes and, apparently, if you install Apple device drivers, they're right.

"Why should any software installed by a user ever be *allowed* to cause an entire OS to crash?"

When the software is created by pompous blowhards that only back up their own claims about the competition by use of sabotage.

Absolutely true. The OS should only blue screen or panic when there is a hardware problem everything else should be protected.

On OS X I have had panics but they have been hardware related ( not saying it can't be crashed with software just haven't experienced it ).

However I think Apple have the same problem as any developer developing for Windows. There is simply so much complexity in supporting every device, cruftiness in the code and plain old hacking that problems occur.

nutts

A kernel level device driver (like the USB driver that Apple installs rather than using the one built in to the OS) will always have the ability to take down the OS.

This is true for any OS since a kernel level driver is the interface between the OS and hardware.

That's why it requires Administrator level permission to install (it did), why it needs to be very well written and tested before it gets sent to users (it wasn't) and why the installer should notifiy users that a device driver is being installed (they weren't) and only be installed if absolutely needed to support new hardware (it wasn't).

"In order to fix this problem, you have to literally uninstall iTunes and the Apple Mobile Device Support "

What?  Apple Software Update with *FREE MobileMe and Safari malware* doesn't fix the problem???

"Apple quietly updated last night"

You mean they didn't give themselves a big public congratulatory pat on the back about fixing problems that they created?  You know - like the iPhwn $3G firmware?

Unreal, indeed.  ;)

"Why should any software installed by a user ever be *allowed* to cause an entire OS to crash?"

As much as I don't want to sound like a CD on repeat, but the same could be applied to my experience of Leopard on my eMac (yeah someone still uses one, I think they're great) - unstable as heck. Same problem I think as iTunes on Vista, bad driver but in my case graphics driver.

I gave up and went back to Tiger which is just fine. However the current version of Leopard might now be stable, I just don't want to upset my apple cart. That said, this is why I'm still on iTunes 7.6.1 -- it's working and stable so I won't upgrade until a solid v8 iteration is out.

"it needs to be very well written and tested"

....still waiting for them to "do the right thing" (in Paul's words), and go through the Certified for Windows WHQL hardware certification track.  It's only been...what?  6 YEARS since the first Windows release??!?

scooby

Any failure (BSOD or Kernel Panic) that can be caused by bad hardware can also be caused by a bad driver.

Think about it. The OS only knows what's going on with the hardware through what the driver tells it.

If the hardware is supposed to return a value from 1 to 5 and a hardware failure has it return -137834 you have a problem

If the hardware is supposed to return a value from 1 to 5, it returns a 3 but the buggy device driver passes that 3 on as -137834, you'll, of course, have the same problem.

And, yes, you'd have the same issues with a buggy driver on OS X or Linux or MS-DOS or VMS or OS/360 or MVT or Unix or VM/CMS or Multics or, or, or...

Oh, and stop trying to blame Apple incompetence on Microsoft. It just looks ignorant and a bit pathetic.

Paul

The really bad part isn't "you may want this update".

The really bad part is that notifying users about the crashing bug that hits a huge percentage of users isn't mentioned on Apple's home page, the iTunes home page, the iTunes download home page or the Apple "Hot News" press release page.

The only way a user could find out there's a new release or that the Apple install is what killed their system is either by using Apple tech support or by reading about it in the press.

Once again, Apple secrecy and ego taking precedence over what's right for their users.

Amazing!

Only a company like Apple can get away with running a negative campaign while facing similar problems with its own software.

BTW, I'm really surprised the company didn't issue a statement blaming MS for all this. Yes, there is a whisper campaign going on among its most fanatical supporters, but that's not the same thing. Maybe this will make its way into their ads?

I here you Mike, I just got a BSOD when I plugged in my headphones to a sound card in my buddy's XP box last night. I'll need to check if his drivers are up to date. The nice thing about Dell is the service tag and the on line utility that will enable me to determine the hardware make and model. This box is very old [Dimension 4100 or 4400] but he's giving it to his girlfriend's kids. But since he makes my daily schedule, I'll be his IT support so that I get an easy daily schedule.

Pingback from  Apple fixes BSOD problem it caused with iTunes 8

(Golf claps for Apple, Inc.)

The bad part is that this was a definite Apple screw up. The worse part is Apple's response to this. First, these idiots had the gall to blame Microsoft, HP, and Logitech for their driver's screwing things up. Then they made everyone unplug all of these items and reinstall everything from iTunes 8 to other drivers. Then other users who had no HP stuff, no Logitech stuff started having problems. It was becoming a tidal wave of complaints on Apple's website, ZDnet, MacFixIt.com, and other places.

ZDnet's Ed Bott identified one of the many culprits. On his machine, he determined that a GEARAspiWDM.sys file created a similar problem. Sound familiar? This GEARAspiWDM.sys caused problems back in the hey day of Windows 2000! Even XP users had problems with this system file. 3 different operating systems and pawning bad files on us. 7 years between the 3 OSes to fix this. Thats great coding there Apple.

On Apple's forums, people identified usbaapl.sys as another problem file. It was all traced to the Apple Mobile Driver package. Apple's badly written USB drivers causing all the problems. Once again it highlights the need for Apple's Mac Community to stard demanding a long and extensive Beta testing program. Wae's suggestion that Apple get all their hardware and driver's Windows Certified would also be a great step in the right direction.

But no, we're just going to hear from the Mac defenders its because, thats right. You guessed it. "Vista Sucks." Microsoft is to blame for "Apple's" coding problems. Go buy a Mac, you'll have no problems. SORRY! Mac users are reporting similar issues with iTunes 8. So this isn't just a Vista or XP issue. Its also a Leopard and Tiger issue too.

Apple needs a serious culture change. Instead of smugly assuming it all works, how about testing your crap and quit wasting ad dollars. I"d rather see less "I'm a Mac, I'm a PC" commercials and Apple start an extensive beta testing and Windows certification program.

Lets add this all up. Leopard and Tiger end up the top two most vulnerable OSes in 2008. iPhone 3G drops calls. iPhone 3G has less than stellar data performance. iPhone 3G fails to stay connected to 3G networks. Mobile Me's disasterous launch. Apple bricks/removes apps from the App store. iPhone 3G update 2.0.1 bricks phones in Airplane mode. iPhone 3G insecure network roaming settings caught at Black Hat convention. Now finally, iTunes 8 causes cross platform crashes. This has really been a stellar year for Apple, let me tell ya.

I'm officially dubbing this year, "Apple's Year of Epic Failures!" This company has failed to live up to consumer expectations many times this year. Many people are calling Apple, the new Microsoft! While others are saying, Microsoft is becoming the new Apple. Some people are saying that Apple intentionally did this, so they can produce another Mac and PC commerical about this. Thats what I've read on several different forums across the web. The talk isn't good out there and Apple's negative press will come back to haunt the company.

How can any of you guys on the Mac side defend all of these failures? Wake up Apple! Keep this stuff up and eventually history will repeat itself.

subzero

Exactly. Apple needs to get rid of their "Secrecy is the key to an effective keynote by Dear Leader" and do decent beta testing of their products.

As I said when people asked why the Microsoft ads don't attack Apple head on; there's no need since Apple's already doing such a good job of attacking Apple head on.

I don't understand why Apple does not test as above and maintains the secrecy. It does not seem to benefit them any more.

I have 5 other friends with iPhone and no one is having the problems in the news, but a few [free] apps do crash on occassion. But what do you want for free. I like it a lot more than my Treo 650 which had numerous problems. Heck, even our RAZR's had problems. But our iPhones are giving us less. Jailbreaking it seems as if many doors are opened.

DRWAM

Glad you're not having the problems.

Leo Laporte (host of Mac Break Weekly and hardly an Apple basher) has gotten to the point that he now carries both his iPhone and a second phone when he goes out since he can't rely on his iPhone working.

He said that proves both how bad things have gotten with the iPhone and how fanatical he and other Apple fans are that he doesn't just leave the iPhone at home.

If Apple wants to play in Windows-land, they really need to learn how. As it is, this latest fiasco is the best Zune ad ever created.

I'm running Vista on my laptop (where I've been trying for months to uninstall Apple Mobile Device Support after taking iTunes off the machine), and in a Bootcamp startup on my 24 inch iMac (Vista rocks on a large screen).  In Bootcamp, Apple just released an updater which won't install as downloaded by their software update.  Unacceptable.  Fortunately, the update does install when downloaded and run by hand.  (And improved my Vista experience index from 1.0 to 5.5.)

 --John (also very tired of Apple's "fixes bugs" or "improves stability" release notes)  (First Apple product:  Apple ][ in Oct 1977)

I didn't think Vista users had iPods? I think they should all go out and purchase a superior Zune.

Don't you agree Mike Galos?

I wonder if Apple fired anyone for this.

MIke,

1.  Leo's phone (like everyone else's) should not crash.  2.  Leo never met an iPhone App he didn't install, which likely contributes.

(OK, I exaggerate in 2, but he has several dozen installed.)

In my original 4gig iPhone, I don't have room for lots of apps.  Safer that way.

Ocean - we can only hope! maybe a few chairs were even thrown!

My Treo 650 was so buggy. I know 5 people with one and 4 of 5 had failures that needed replaced! Apple better consider better testing as we and they all know what is happening to Palm.

The touch is enough for me.  I just want the improved web experience and the music player. Maybe a game or two.

My Windows Mobile phone is good enough for email, contacts and business apps.

beaker

By far most iPod owners are Windows users.

On the other hand, most Windows users don't have an iPod.

(As for them switching to Zune, with the accessory lock in and the Apple DRMed AAC file lock in, I understand that it's awfully hard for a lot of them to switch.)

johnbaxter

I'm pretty sure even Leo didn't install "I Am RIch"

On the other hand, the insanely restrictive developer program was justified by claiming that as a result iPhone apps would be safe to install. It's fair to forgive Apple for either the restrictions on 3rd party developers or buggy 3rd party apps but not both.

FYI: According to Ed Bott's blog blogs.zdnet.com/Bott what Apple did in this "fix" was to roll back the updated USB driver to the version that shipped with iTunes 7.7

So, either there was no need to update the driver for iTunes 8 or whatever features the new USB driver enabled are less important than getting this fiasco under control.

If it's the first, then you really have to wonder what Apple was thinking when they updated a kernel level driver for no compelling reason.

If it's the second, then Apple failing to document what features are now broken by the lack of the new driver is yet another of Apple's "secrecy takes precedence over the good of the users" choice.

It'll be interesting to see which it is.

Also gents, after owning a gadget for slightly more than a month without a problem, I don't consider it a success until longer term use proves it. My Treo failed in 3.5 months and my RAZR had problems after 10 months of use. Early problems with newly released gadgets can be expected, but quick fixes are also to be expected from good companies. If not, they suck. Lack of good testing is not smart and akin to rolling dice. Reputations are at risk, and therefore sensable planning [testing] should be a top goal.

The 2.1 iPhone firmware is out. The fixes certainly prove that problems exist. I'll wait to update. My Treo had one single update during it's life. Another reason Palm is losing business to the competition.

Our IT guy just showed me hid Blackjack II, which he just updated WinMo. It funny how my iPhone and the BJ II are so similar and do so many similar things, but the iPhone hype is incredible. Obviously the screen is larger and web surfing is nice on the iphone, but the rest is pretty darn similar. he bought a MacBookAir BTW. He really loves it, but did not bring it with. Isn't that the point? Maybe it's on a shrine:)

Isn't it funny (and a little ironical) that when you change "Vista" in the latest set of Mac internet ads to "iPhone" or "iTunes", it still makes sense? :-)

But that's how all software works these days. Every software needs bug fixes after release. That Apple would make such a big deal about it is strange.

New idea for a commercial.

(White background and two people standing. One in jeans and a tshirt, another with a business suit on.)

Mac: (Facing down to the floor and sweating profusely. Groaning.)

PC: And I'm a PC. Mac, are you okay?

(Mac looks down grabbing his stomach, puts his hands to the stomach.)

PC: He must have downloaded that early version of iTunes 8. Good thing I waited. Looks like he downloaded some bad photographs too. I warned him about those jpeg viruses. He was looking for Drew Barrymore pics, I think? I don't get his obsession with her.  We'll Mac, not so smug now aren't cha. (PC walks over and pats him on the back.)

(Mac pukes on himself and the floor.)

PC: Oh, goodness. That must be the Kirsten Dunst photos. Defender caught that. Oh, I thought Blaster had made me sick. Come on Mac, we'll take you down to IT. Purge those bad bad drivers, Barrymore and Dunst pictures, and maybe we'll put a copy of Vista on ya. Then you can browse the web without those nasty little bugs cluttering your hard drive.

(Mac helping PC off to the IT department. Walking off screen.)

PC: Does anyone have an antivirus disk around here?

Vista: Security Included.

(The Windows Orb appears on the screen.)

Sub, that's too funny! Did he date Kirsten too? If so, I'm going to cry too!

Doc

Jpeg viruses?

@Doc,

He's dating Dunst now. Thats why I included her.

@WebGuy,

One of the virus writer's techniques, very popular with porn and celebrity photos is to insert virus code within a jpeg image. You download the jpeg and when you view it, it starts sending malicious code that can compromise your system. Its one of the defenses in both Defender and the Malicious Software Removal Tool thats updated very often by Microsoft.

@ subzerohitman721

Yes, I'm familiar with jpeg viruses.  I'm not aware of any that ever affected Macs, however, which I thought took a bit of the edge off your little satire.  Sorry if I was oblique.

@webguy

There is a virus called OSX.Leap.A that uses the jpeg encoding technique. It was considered the first true worm for OS-X and showed that a compromise was possible. That is what I'm using for precedent of such an attack. Its documented at Symantec if you want more on that virus. Yes its an oldie, but I'm sure someone out there has a variant if the system doesn't have anti-virus. A slight creative licence but still very logical and possible.