Apple released evolutionary updates to their MacBook, MacBook Air, and MacBook Pro notebook computers today.
My take? Whoop-de-freaking-do.
It's such a double-standard. Toshiba also released some really nice laptops today. They didn't get hardly any press. Steve gets up there, snaps his fingers, and the crowd starts to weep uncontrollably. Get an iLife you lemmings!
Despite being an unapologetic Apple fan I tend to agree.
Glossy screens. No thankyou. I have a dread that the whole world is turning glossy.
New machining process. Looks nice but not worth the effort required.
Price increases in these times. Good luck.
Apple occasionally takes things too far in the pursuit of perfection or engineering excellence, past a point where no one is willing to pay the price. The Cube is the most notable example, DVD drives another.
I suspect this may be another.
@Kale
Trouble is Toshiba do nothing engineering or style wise that makes an impact. Nor do most other producers of commodity PCs. Their fault not Apple's. Try harder.
Only Sony seem to be able to put some proper, original design aesthetic into their products but only a little.
@scoobyclub
My point is: Apple stuff is at least aestheticly fantastic (usability is a little questionable--mighty mouse anyone?) but they are all-in-all just laptops.
Someone give me a good way to seemlessly intertwine tv and the computer (without that damned cable-card) and I'll gladly sit in the crowd bawling my eyes out. A laptop-refresh? Give me a break.
I was hoping for a slightly lower price on the older macbooks, $999 just isn't low enough. If they dropped it another $100-$150 I may have picked one up just to tinker with. The academic discount is only $50 for that model so it really doesn't help much.
scoobyclub
I'd say Lenovo also does some innovative laptops as do Dell with their XPS line as do Alienware
Come to think of it, there seem to be a lot of innovators out there that don't seem to get anywhere near the mention they deserve...
What price increase?
I see $100 knocked off the current model (plus SuperDrive, finally), for $999 white MBs, a price point which is long over-due and welcome. Could be less yet but it's a decent start.
The new MBs look gorgeous with MBA-level build quality (the MBA is amazing build quality-wise, whatever you think of the price or specs - if you haven't handled one yet, seriously check it out) and vastly improved GPUs. $1299 gets you a very well-designed computer w/ Mac OS X & iLife, just like before -- though IMO the design is a serious evolution, and a big improvement.
So the new MB compares extremely well to the older models... save the missing FW, I suppose, if that's something you care about. Before, a non-white MB would cost you $1500 and have a piss-poor GPU. The non-white 13" models now start at $1300.
lookmark
Well, aside from a $100 discount on overstock of old items, Mac Book went up $200 for the cheapest unit.
I'd call that a price increase.
They are elegant, extraordinary, aesthetically pleasing computers, and you're not going to get any traction by simply reverting to hooting.
A few things.
The press is saying a price decrease as the Macbook is now under $1000. [But still a premium price for the OS?]
My $400 ACER laptop actually looks very nice IMO, so it can be done for less.
Kale, aesthetically fantastic? [-1 for spelling]. I have a Mac Pro Tower and I think it looks like an over sized cheese grater. [But I like the OS of course. Thankfully it sits inside a cubby so I don't have to look at it.
btw: as an example of an innovative laptop that didn't get today's press coverage, I'd suggest looking at the Alienware Area-51 m15x which is a 15" laptop that can have up to a Core 2 Extreme processor and either nVidia Quadro FX 3600M or nVidia GeForce 8800M GTX GPU with bunches of configuration choices and starts at $1,500.
Mike, I see your point now. It looks like you're correct...again.
Oops, wait, the $999 version says new at the Apple, so it could be a price drop. [Yep, I'm confused] Still you can get the same config for hundreds less with Vista.
Yeah. This "price decrease" is like my local car dealer saying they dropped their prices because they'll give me a deal on the left over 2008 models now that the 2009s are out at a higher price.
"Still you can get the same config for hundreds less with Vista"
I know people, lots of them that pay "hundreds" more to NOT have Vista, and I am not talking Macs. Dell is making a killing loading XP on computers for $99 extra per machine.
I am sure your Acer notebook serves you well. However lets compare something on the PC side that is comparable to the new Macbook. Hardware/Quality/build.
How about a a Dell XPS M1330 which starts at $999 for the cheapest model, and can go up to 2k depending upon the options you pick. The M1330 at $999 has the same CPU, bigger hard drive (250 vs 160) more ram (3gig vs 2gig) but has Intel X3100 graphics, and a popout DVD drive.
configure.us.dell.com/.../config.aspx
Go up to Vista Ultimate, 8400 Nivida card (which is slower than the new macbook) and slot loading DVD drive and you go up to... $1369. At that point the Dell has 1gig more of RAM, 90gig more disk space and a slower video card for $70 more.
Comparing that Acer is not even close. 14inch and smaller notebook cost more than 15.4inch notebooks, almost always do.
If you are impacted by the down turn in the economy I think a new computer even at $400 is not in your budget.
Samsung just released laptops for the US today, and they look pretty nice:
blog.laptopmag.com/were-coming-to-america-samsung-finally-enters-us-notebook-market
I have a couple problems with the new Apple laptops - one is that they're still too expensive. I also don't like the glossy screens and I don't really care how they're made, just that they're relatively durable.
My biggest problem is the HUGE SHEET OF GLASS over the screen. You drop your laptop bag 6 inches or get it squished going through airport security and you're going to have a nice, big cracked screen. I hope I'm proven wrong, but this seems like a very bad idea.
On the upside, the laptops are thin, light and look cool. I don't think I'd buy one though, because they're just too expensive.
Nothing worse than Microsoft fanboys with a streak of jealously and no style whatsoever. $400 laptops, cheaper systems with Vista. Sure, if you like to settle for second (or in this case, third best). Stay with your cheapo systems and Vista OS, you're making a statement that you have no style. You settle. All the hallmarks of the company you love, Microsoft.
I've been waiting for a Mac laptop refresh. Although I got an iMac about a year ago, I simply don't use it that often. I want to simplify, so I'm going to get rid of my MacBook & iMac, and settle on one machine--one of the new MacBook Pros.
I ordered mine this afternoon: 2.8 ghz model, 320 gb 7200 rpm hard drive.
I actually wish that hard drive was larger, but it will be easy to replace down the road. For my purposes, this should be an excellent machine.
You Microsoft nerds are just jealous :)
Enjoy this ringtone
parrygripp.com/This%20Is%20My%20Ringtone.mp3
Come on, it's funny!
drylight
Amazing that you think you can buy style...
So, the $800 Mac was more wishful thinking on the part of the Mac-obsessed reporters and bloggers than actual news? Wow!
Drylight, my wife and I drive a Benz, and I have a Mac Pro Tower 3 GHz Quad with 4GB RAM RAID 0 config [4 HD's total] as my main computer, so I'm not really jealous, just practical [sure, go ahead and call me cheap]. The purpose of my laptop to for portable use to surf the web and word processing, and allow the kids to play Wubbzy and Webkinz when the other two computers are in use. It's a similar concept to MacBook Air, but twice the weight and 15 % of the cost. And I'm buying my mom a new car tomorrow with the spare change. OK, it's not really the spare change for the laptop. but mommy is getting a new car:)
This cheapo notebook looks nice and can do everything I need it to do. Hopefully tayme will have a good experience with it for his sister.
shark
Along with the Mac Netbook, the Mac Tablet, the actual Macintosh (between the iMac and the Pro), the return of the 12" Mac Book, the updated AppleTV, the BluRay drive, the option of a non-glossy screen, the docking station...
But his Steveness has told them that they don't need them so now they know they don't and will happily tell everyone why they don't (once Steve tells them).
You know, Paul's "take" and that of other winzealots is just, . . ., kinda. . . sad.
By any reasonable measure, Apple is a company pushing the boundaries, going for what's great, not merely what makes money. The new laptops are just more evidence of this. Although the iphone - which simply blows away the other smartphones out there -- is the best example.
and the reaction of the winzealots? bitterness and disparaging comments. you'd think apple was actually hurting them personally. sad, sad, sad.
@DRWAM
It was probabley that aestheticly fantastik wirless aluminum keybord I'm typing on. Didn't know I got counted off for spelling/typos.... Thank God I'm an engineer and not an English major... I would be crucified by all those holier-than-thou spelling perfectionists...
Lol DRWAM practical, after admitting that you own two MB's? Dam that is hilarious.
Practical would be owning two Accords that would last just as long, get you from point A to point B just as well, probably with better gas mileage and at half the cost (per car).
With the spare change you could buy everyone that has posted so far a new Macbook Pro and a 3rd Accord for your Mom.
@Mike "Amazing that you think you can buy style..."
How much have you spent so far:)
How's that Lotus doing?
what, so now DRWAM has been attacked basically for being cheap and functional, then for being extravagant.
what the *** do you people want?
As for style, I really don;t get it. It's a freaking laptop. Why would It to be anything other than a laptop? I don't need a laptop as a fashion accesory I need it to be a computer I can carry around with me to places.
You apple zealots have completely lost your tiny little minds!
bettieblu, good point. Worse yet,they are leased and we are replacing them this month! I think I got flustered when I thought I was being called someone without style! In fact a tech that did not know that I was married thought I was a gay body builder since I dress in stylish attire!
Anyway, I also was stupid enough to forget to mention that my work related stuff requires Windows, so for my needs, a cheap Windows notebook would work well, and I wouldn't mind as much if one of my kids spilled Pepsi on it, or I dropped it.
As they say in Mexico, Touché! :)
Apple: "pushing the boundaries" of what even insane people will spend in a recession.
Nothing like a re-hash of the "Apple tax".
Nice share price BTW.... ;)
@gorath:
They lost it when they chose....
@cesjr Are you joking? I really hope you are, because it's just frightening to hear someone talking about a profit-driven corporation like they're some religious cult fronted by a modern-day messiah who has arrived to cure suffering in the world by providing glossy screened laptops...oh wait. It's Apple.
I use a Mac, I like my Mac, but this kind of blind idolatry is scary. To actually believe that Apple is doing anything "not merely [to make] money" is bordering on the delusional. If you channeled your passion for these relatively unimportant hunks of plastic and metal toward something that actually mattered in the world, your life, and the lives of those around you, would be much better.
Most "Winzealots" I know aren't jealous. They're just annoyed by the irrational, loud, blind-devotion of a few Mac users like you. I'm a Mac user and I find it irritating too, but that's because I'm a human being first and I don't need a corporation to define my value in life. YMMV
@Waethorn, do you think these are "insane" ?
www.sonystyle.com/.../CategoryDisplay
Or is it just because its an Apple product and it gets your panties in a wad?
I think those Sony notebooks are kick @$$
Thanks for posting this Paul. I get a kick out of reading the zealot comments from both camps. It helps me to realize why I choose to be an all around techno geek and not a platform cabalist like so many that post here.
--tayme
@Doc - I thought that Touché was German?!?
@DRWAM no worries, I just thought it was funny.
If I did not have 3 kids in private school I might sell my toyota truck and get me a Benz, I think they are probably some of the best cars made, from a engineering stand point.
That said my Toyota has been the most reliable car I have ever owned from a TCO point.
chuck
The Lotus is doing fine. Thanks for asking.
Oh, and if I were concerned with an appearance of "style" rather than precise handling and clever engineering, I could have bought a Porsche or BMW for the same money and been considered much more "stylish".
Mike's right, I could have gotten an S series instead of an E, [the wife has an R], but I wanted to 'save' money:)
I'm so cheap bettieblu, that I was only going to have two kids. But God knew I was a jerk to woman, they he threw in a twins...all girls too! Even they make fun of my Mac. They laugh at the 'dumb apple' that pops up at startup. "It's no good because it has a bite out of it."
tayme, are you sure it's not Chinese?
Mike,
"Oh, and if I were concerned with an appearance of "style" rather than precise handling and clever engineering, I could have bought a Porsche or BMW for the same money and been considered much more "stylish".
I always liked BMW, but felt they started decadent after the 2002. Not at all stylish, but it was a fun car. I'd have it still if it hadn't rusted out.
"tayme, are you sure it's not Chinese?"
Naah. Somewhere in Texas. Definitely in Tennessee.
Go Colts!
I absolutely agree with you about BMW. They did amazing work in the days of the Bavaria, 2002 and 3.0 CSi but lost their way when they developed a following for the brand rather than the engineering.
I found this comment on a forum discussing Apple's announcement today:
"Apple has now officially become the Bang & Olufsen of computers"
I think Dell and other notebook manufacturers believe Apple whiffed today.
The media seems to think Apple has lowered prices, so that's a win-win for the company.
techboy
I'd have to say that's not far off. But being a big fan of B&O during their Jacob Jensen days from the mid-1960s to the mid-1980s, I'd say they've become what Bang and Olufsen has become. (And I seriously wish both of them would regain their vision)
@Sharky - I think you are right. Touché is hillbilly for YeeHaw!!!
@DRWAM Look, seriously, some people like nice things but may not care for it in others. Some may care about the car they drive, but not care about what computer they buy, or visa versa. People make choices like that all the time (as you suggest). And no, I'm not calling you cheap. You obviously have taste, driving a Benz and all :)
@gorath "As for style, I really don;t get it. It's a freaking laptop. Why would It to be anything other than a laptop? I don't need a laptop as a fashion accesory I need it to be a computer I can carry around with me to places."
As I said before, people can (and do) use exactly what you've said about anything. You can take your paragraph and change laptop for any other item and it's the same thing. Some people care about some things and not about others. You could say it about people that buy expensive cars
"As for style, I really don;t get it. It's a freaking CAR. Why would It to be anything other than a CAR? I don't need a CAR as a fashion accesory I need it to be a CAR so that I can get to places."
"Thanks for posting this Paul. I get a kick out of reading the zealot comments from both camps."
Don't forget that Paul himself is a Microsoft zealot.
I don't much like car-computer analogies, but still: One reason I use a Mac is the same reason you drive a Lotus and I (used to, until in died) drive a 2002. All of those things are utilitarian objects designed to accomplish a task. But, more than that, when you use these tools to accomplish a a task, there is a Zen-like simplicity to them. They don't get in the way, they do what they need to do, and they just FIT.
Anyone who's ever used a good tool understands that statement.
The comments on the Apple notebook announcement today basically miss the point. Jobs (and it is Jobs who drives the vision) isn't sellng computers anymore. In a purely technical sense, the Lenovo notebook that Paul references here
community.winsupersite.com/.../now-that-s-a-computer.aspx
is a much better computer, but, Gods above, what an ugly brick, indistinguishable from many other ugly bricks sold by many other companies.
For a laptop, and the way 99% of people use laptops, I don't really know what you do with a quad-core. For most people, how you feel while you use the computer now matters more than any gearhead specs.
I'm sure you drive a Lotus for the reasons that I had my 2002. A Chevette will get you from point A to point B, but the Lotus does it with elan, with STYLE.
I don't get (except that it's Apple and most people here reflexively detest Apple) disparaging style. Read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" to understand what that word really means. Done right, style is not grafted on, it's a gestalt, part of the whole experience. Pretending that these computers, or anything else that humans build, exist in isolation from the user.....that's the problem. If it makes you feel good because it works well, that's good tech, and good design. If the product offends you when you look at it, all the tech specs in the world aren't going to make that gadget work right for you.
And, I agree, that 3.0 CSI might just be the most beautiful car ever built. Citroen SM is my other favorite, surely older than most posters on this forum :).
Chuck
There's where we disagree. I drive a Lotus not for style or elan (although I used to own a Lotus Elan) but for their superb engineering and their design philosophy. If they didn't do the things I care about better than their competitors I'd buy the car that did.
The problem Apple has had is that it seems as though they've forgotten the "do thing better" part and now seem to care about style for the sake of style rather than style from doing what you think is best. They've moved from style in the sense of great engineering to style in the sense of "aluminum is the new black" fashion.
@mike - And that, sir, is your opinion...others obviously differ.
"Don't forget that Paul himself is a Microsoft zealot."
Hardly. If any reporter bashed Apple as much as Paul bashes Microsoft (read his comments on Zune prior to v3 or XBox 360 or Windows Mobile as a start) or praised Microsoft as much as Paul praises Apple (read his comments on Apple TV or iPod or Mac hardware) he would hardly be called an Apple zealot. He'd be more likely to be tarred and feathered by the Apple fans.
tayme
Reading comprehension time again. Note that I said "it seems" and "now seem" which are phrases declaring the rest to be opinion.
Your pointing out that statements explicitly identified as opinion are in fact opinion is either redundant or intended to deceive or shows a lack of reading skills. I'll let you tell us which.
@Chuck - To simplify what you are saying...For you, using a Mac makes you feel better. There could be many reasons for this, or for somebody else preferring a Windows or Linux PC..
a. It runs the applications that they use to get what they do done.
b. They learned on that OS and are more comfortable using it.
c. It is what they could afford.
d. It matches their eyes.
e. The competition pissed them off at some point.
The list could go on and on. Simply put, nobody is "wrong" for using a certain OS or preferring one over the others. To say as much is idiocy.
Mike I dont get what you think is so wrong with the new Mac Notebooks from a hardware point of view?
The Macbook pro was long revered because if its metal skin and its use a slot loading drive, magnetic latch etc.
Moving to this new metal case and moving the Macbook to it as well, making the whole line Macbook, Macbook Air, and Macbook Pro fall in together makes sense.
The price argument is mute when you compare a XPS with similar specs or even a Sony that cost more.
The guts of these things are pretty much the same as other notebooks stuffed with the same technology, .45nm Intel CPU's, bluetooth, GIGE, Wireless N, USB 2.0, better integrated graphics...etc.
So you have the same guts as other high end notebooks, in a stylish metal case, with high quality fit and finish, at or around the same price as others.
IMHO the only other notebooks that compare are the Sony Z notebooks when it comes to fit and finish.
I have a T61 that is a year old from my company, 14.1 inch, 2.0ghz dual core, 2gigs of RAM, etc. I have had Thinkpads for a long time now from work. T-23, T30 and now the T61. They are great notebooks, and have the best keyboard s of any notebook. That said they are starting to seem "cheaper". Do they even use Titanium frames anymore? My T-23 was like a solid iron brick. My T-61 has a lot of flex comparatively, a more plastic feel to it. The battery has play in it. Maybe Lenovo is starting to get cheap on parts of it?? A good friend of mine has a Sony TZ or whatever, 13.1 inch with the two video cards (switch on the top) and that is a ROCK SOLID notebook. It feels good and looks good.
@bettie:
The Jell-o keyboards suck. There - I said it. Sony's computers are made by ASmobile - a division of Asus. Last time I looked Asus makes a LOT more PC gear than they do for Apple.
@chuck:
Obviously you've never used a quad-core. I bet you said the same thing when you were you using your sad little G5 when a Pentium 4 with Hyperthreading was kicking its @$$.
I'll give you this one though: "640k should be enough for anyone". Obviously the Doc won't agree by the cars he drives. ;)
Oh and BTW: It's another minority Conservative gov't in Canada tonight. The people have spoken. It nice to be able to live in a country where you don't have to be ashamed to have voted the sensible choice going into a recession, while still not handing over ultimate power. The sensible choice in Canada is Conservative. Can you say that?
U.S.: *crickets*
Nice going on that extra $250 billion buyout. That other $700 billion really went far.... :)P
I bet Bush probably spent it all on [the wrong nation's] Thanksgiving weekend on a bender involving hookers and coke.
@mike - you are being very careful to choose your words now, aren't you. You did in fact say "it seems" in that post...but there are many others in which you haven't been so careful. I am not going to waste my time or yours searching for them...we both know that they exist. I find it tiring to see a seemingly smart person like you waste so much being as partisan as you seem to enjoy being. But, whatever...go for it...be that elitist that many of us see you as.
@mikegalos
Apple's presentation seemed to be completely about "superb engineering" and "design philosophy" yet you see it as "style for the sake of style".
Seems to me to be a rathe perverse observation. Perhaps they should have wrapped up their new MacBooks in a sheet of bamboo... like Dell.
I've seen Sony's software loadout. I'm not impressed. Even less impressed than of the new Mac's.
Ok, maybe not THAT unimpressed.... ;)
Hey where's pappy so I can make fun of him about the lack of his connection of choice.
Firewire is dead, john. The Steve has spoken. :p
I'm actually pretty excited. Apple is doing some pretty interesting things with the MacBooks. Though removing FireWire is sort of a dumb thing to do... I'd like to be able to run the Mac OS and Windows and this MacBook looks like it would be it.
bettieblue
There's nothing wrong with them aside from being vastly overpriced. The problem is that with a limited line of only 3 models of laptops and so limited a range of options inside that line and such a long turn-around between revisions, a major revision of the line should be more than "nothing wrong". It should be compelling. These are not compelling improvements.
Or, to put it simply, these needed be "insanely great" and not "Whoop-de-freaking-do"
And I'd have to say Paul's evaluation is pretty much dead on accurate.
@ Wae "I've seen Sony's software loadout. I'm not impressed"
I guess I would never know. I would download the drivers from Sony that I absolutely need, drivers from Nvidia/Intel for the parts that are in that Sony from them, and pop in the Vista DVD and go. No way would I use the Sony/Dell/HP or whomever build. I do the same on OS X. I do a custom build on OS X and remove the 50 or so languages I wont use, and GIGS of printer drivers I will never use.
I was surprised about the Firewire being removed on the Macbook. However lets be honest. Firewire is for high end video cameras and for the vast minority of external Hard Drives. Everything else is USB.
So for the Macbook I doubt serious Video Work is being done on them. I think/know FireWire Hard drives are faster than USB, use less CPU for sure but only when transferring serious data, like backing up a computer with GIGS of data.
Firewire is dead for most. Intel/USB won that round.
The elections in Canada were a waste of money. Who knows how much spent on adds... and they get what? 3 more seats? BQ is gaining seats again! Minority will only last probably at most 2 years. (Ah well that’s politics for you) Oh and back on topic. I think that Mac’s are overhyped but not to say they are terrible computers. My G4 sure lasts longer then the gateway laptop I had before.
bettieblu said:
So how do you boot up an external hard drive that has a clone of your MAC OS that has been made with a utility like superduper?. You need firewire to do that otherwise it is a no go!.
I chose sony viao TZ237GN over the Macbook Air six months ago, because I wanted a very light weight PC with a DVD writer. I love the sony viao TZ237GN and the new Z 13 inch - it is brilliant. The new macbook 13 inch looks very interesting but glossy screen no way and no firewire!.
The sony viao has a glossy or bright screen but sony is very clever - they placed an AR (Anti reflection) coating on the screen - it really helps in cutting back the reflection and it still looks very sharp and bright.
The only thing I miss on my viao is a backlight keyboard and a high end graphics card - my MS Flight simulator has to operate at a low scenery density!.
"The problem is that with a limited line of only 3 models of laptops and so limited a range of options inside that line and such a long turn-around between revisions, a major revision of the line should be more than "nothing wrong"."
This is far from "whoop-de-freaking-do" and the new models are certainly not "nothing wrong". The MacBook prices seem to have gone up and firewire got removed. I've invested quite a lot in firewire in the last five years, because it's been noticeably faster and more reliable for me. This is probably the first time I'd go for the previous models was I in the market for a new one.
Sure, the multitouch stuff is ok and I find the two finger scrolling introduced a few years back invaluable, but I'm not sure about the touchpad click. The accuracy probably suffers as you're more likely to move the cursor a bit before the click registers - just like often happens with pen tablets.
The new models being Apple's greenest is great, no doubt. (Not that I give a **** about Greenpeace - they're just making things worse.)
Anyway, the firewire removal for me is a show stopper. MacBook Pros are 15" and that's too much for me to lug around. So it sucks, just like it did when they ditched the 12" model which I loved (like my wife now does).
So you're absolutely right with the product line being way too limited, although it hasn't affected me before this (or before I need a new laptop).
Actually, there is one very important use that macs make of firewire.
As macs are claimed to have a stronghold in audio recording and editing, and most audio interfaces (particularly those used with laptops for location or home studio recordings) use firewire as their interface, maybe apple has shot itself in the foot?
The Migration assistant also uses firewire, you can network over firewire, even some pro cameras (besides video cameras) use it etc.
I think I'll send Apple an angry mail about this nonsense.
@gorath: Apple shot itself in the foot? Firewire has only been removed from the Macbook and Macbook Airs. Most pro users doing heavy lifting with audio or video would be using more of a 'pro' machine. The iMac, Macbook Pro and Mac Pros all have Firewire.
"Firewire is for high end video cameras"
Oh, really? Like the $200 JVC MiniDV camera I bought from Sam's Club?
"Most pro users doing heavy lifting with audio or video would be using more of a 'pro' machine."
Then tell me, "drylight", what's "iLife" all about? Is that marketed towards pros? It's hardly a "pro" application (especially the new iMovie, which is a complete joke compared to the older version). King Steve and His Court talk about the wonders of video editing on a Mac, then rip out the protocol that most people use to get the video INTO THE SYSTEM. Particularly in education markets, this is a ridiculously shortsighted and ignorant move.
For once, I'm in total agreement with Paul. Yesterday's announcement was a joke. "We're saving big money on a new manufacturing process!" (But we're not passing on the savings to you). "We're introducing a new MacBook that's perfect for video editing!" (But we're taking away FireWire, so good luck getting that video into the computer). "We're dropping the price on the el-cheapo MacBook!" (Our best-selling Mac ever, so we've recovered all our cost and then some, but still won't drop the price to where it's reasonable in today's economy).
Dumba$$es.
What I don't understand is why all you WinJihadists who profess to think of Apple only rarely have given this issue so much "virtual ink". Paul's commentary was concise and to the point. Y'all just can't help yourselves, can you?
(And before someone points it out...yes I know there are USB to FireWire adapters. I don't trust them. Working with FireWire for video is particularly tricky with SONY cameras, and another layer of complexity and expense is the last thing people need.)
The same story repeating, Nothing really "new" from Apple. Let's go forward. :-)
"Steve gets up there, snaps his fingers, and the crowd starts to weep uncontrollably."
Get a life, a$$hat. No one was "weeping uncontrollably". And if you were to actually to the requisite 10 minutes of research, you'd actually find that the reaction in the Mac community largely mirrors Paul's. There are exceptions, to be sure (and I'm sure we'll soon see those links from "mikegalos" and "waethorn"), but there isn't a terrible amount of excitement here. I suspect you know that, but then it wouldn't make for a very interesting snarky post, would it?
Conversely, "mikegalos" is EXACTLY right when he says, "The problem is that with a limited line of only 3 models of laptops and so limited a range of options inside that line and such a long turn-around between revisions, a major revision of the line should be more than "nothing wrong". It should be compelling. These are not compelling improvements."
As I stated in earlier, I don't know why he cares when he doesn't see Apple as competition. But whatever...he's still right.
@drylight:
I sais "maybe" because I don't know for certain what the outcome will be.
As for most pro users doing heavy lifting, I know a hell of a lot of people who use a macbook for portable audio stuff. We often get logic users bringing in their macbooks to the studio to interface with our gear.
For simple location work, or portable home studio setups, a simple macbook was more than enough.
Sure, for serious "heavy duty" work, then a mac or PC running a dedicated DSP based solution is used. But due to the power of today's computers, the "heavy lifting" gear isn't required most of the time.
Someone else also bought up a good point about education uses, and again, I know a load of people get trained to use logic, or ProTools LE on macbooks, because it was a nice, affordable solution, that would also allow you to run windows, and therefore train users to use PC based solutions such as sequoia or Pyramix as well.
Not anymore it seems.
I honestly don't know how or if this will affect apple's position, and I'm only mildly concerned. However, I'm pretty sure that you also don't KNOW that it won't affect them, so quit arguing for argument's sake.
On the bright side, the new low end model is cheaper and could appeal to the more impulsive buyer, although we know that a Vista model is even cheaper. Still it's possible as we are out there. An example is my Benz. I wanted to lease to update my car more often and saw the lease special and made the choice in 5 to 10 minutes. It's AWD, and I usually drive an SUV, but the impulse was there. [I'm am thinking about replacing it with an Acura MDX due to it's size and 3rd row of seats.] The cheapo $400 laptop that I bought was a focus in price for a computer that I really did not need right now, but it 'looked' like a good buy [and I think it was], so the impulse prevailed. Still The price increase in the two other models and lack of FW may not have been good judgement. I would like to know the idea behind it. We will se in sales volume in the next few quarters, I guess.
"Minority will only last probably at most 2 years."
Actually it averages less than 1.5 years. Giving a government ultimate rule for 4-5 years in the current market conditions just spells trouble anyway.
Actually it's for tape camcorders almost exclusively.
Consumers are buying hard drive and DVD camcorders more and more, and they use USB in the majority of cases. I applaud Apple for actually responding to consumer demand, rather than imposing it, even if it p1sses off a certain grumpy person that feels otherwise (or maybe moreso because of it - I know, I'm evil). *golf clap*
@losta:
Maybe you should just install a Firewire ExpressCard....
....oh, nevermind. ;)
"Maybe you should just install a Firewire ExpressCard...."
Touché, Wae.
Is this a french Canadian word from German descent with Asian overtone?
Wow... Seriously guys... Whats the big deal here? Apple is doing very well in the laptop market. If these new laptops allow them to continue to do well then more power to them.
On the arguement about the MacBooks being too over-priced, that is a matter of perspective. Can you get a cheaper laptop yes, of coarse. But if you take the average HOME user, and spec out an identically configured lapop, it is not that much cheeper than the macbook. Now, add in the fact the a home user will have to buy virus protection and deal with that. Also add in the value of the iLife suite, which really has no equal on the Windows side... Add in the a windows PC configured the same seems/is slower than a Mac... (From login, a windows box has to load all of that crap in the task tray, compared to a mac which is ready seconds after you login...) Add in the fact that a new Windows PC still has TONS of crapware that slows down a PC and takes 2 hours to remove.
Really... Take a step out of your tech world and look at how average people use PCs... People who are not computer literate, but still like and use PCs, have real issues with Windows. In all of the cases I have seen, when you take those same people and switch them to a Mac, they suddenly do not have those issues that they did on Windows and they actually LIKE using their computers.
I really do not understand Mike (Lotus guy). He chose to buy a Lotus over a Toyota because he likes the engineering of it. Okay fine. But then he doesn't see the value that a Mac brings to the table over a typical Windows PC?
Waethorn
I said, "For a laptop, and the way 99% of people use laptops, I don't really know what you do with a quad-core." And I stand by that. OTOH, ---I'd--- like to have a quad core(!), but then I'm in the lunatic fringe posting on this board.
As for this, "Obviously you've never used a quad-core. I bet you said the same thing when you were you using your sad little G5 when a Pentium 4 with Hyperthreading was kicking its @$$."
Curiously enough, when the dual G5's were Apple's top of the line, we did detailed head-to-head comparisons of our fire modeling codes and the G5 was faster than the P4. BTW, hyperthreading makes almost zero difference on a code that is not a mix of integer and floating point operations, and ours (like most such scientific codes) was nearly 100% floating point.
In the end, the fact that the G5 was faster was essentially irrelevant because the boxes were expensive and flops/$ favored the P4. We bought a bunch of Dells and put Linux on them to build a cluster, and I did the admin work from my G5. Again, this is the "right tool for the job approach".
@Mike, yah, actually the "elan" comment was a bit of an inside joke. I know all about that model Lotus. Didn't know you owned one though; nice car.
@Lotsamystuff "As I stated in earlier, I don't know why he cares when he doesn't see Apple as competition." Yah, that is the mystery. Macs are irrelevant compared to the Windows juggernaut that rules the world and at the SAME TIME, everything that Apple does must be deirided and scorned because it is so UNFAIR to the great Windows empire. I can certainly understand either viewpoint, but what I've never gotten is that so many here seem to say both things at the same time.
And, finally back on the POINT of this thread, the basic question is whether this Mac notebook update is anything substantive and important. Well, to me, not so much. However, as Apple has already demonstrated with the (in my view, flawed and limited) Macbook Air, they know how to design products that will sell, and these new notebooks will, regardless of price and limitations. The reason is what I was trying to suggest above, they do good design and people like the products.
"But if you take the average HOME user...."
There's where your argument falls apart.
The "average" computer user is ANY computer user. The average HOME user? Most would say they don't need a $1200 computer so immediately that drops Apple off the shopping list.
"spec out an identically configured lapop, it is not that much cheeper than the macbook"
Ah, but it IS still cheaper. Add a couple upgrades over the base unit, and that Mac can easily DOUBLE in price.
"Also add in the value of the iLife suite, which really has no equal on the Windows side"
I'd say that the Windows Live suite (which is free) more than makes up for it. After all, it's what people actually USE.
"Take a step out of your tech world and look at how average people use PCs..."
That's right - they use PC's. Not Mac's. I accept your apology now.
"BTW, hyperthreading makes almost zero difference on a code that is not a mix of integer and floating point operations, and ours (like most such scientific codes) was nearly 100% floating point."
Actually, you're wrong there. It improves the responsiveness and efficiency of a system running ANY type of code, so long as the code supports multithreading. If it doesn't, Windows will still balance independent threads.
The Dual G5's were faster than P4's, but by that time the Pentium D's were already out and kicking their A$$ too. The Pentium Extreme Edition chips with dual-core also support Hyperthreading, so they could run 4 independent threads. They were energy hogs, but the G5's were too, even if they weren't as fast.
The Dual G5's required special support for them, while Windows was already optimized for multi-CPU, and thus, Hyperthreading, making machines much more responsive under heavy load. That benefitted everyone.
chuck is right. Apple can make a brick (no pun intended) and it'll still find people to buy the product. No other company will be able to generate this kind of buzz for a new marketing process.
Actually a comparable 17 in HP with the same hardware config as the base model 17 in MBP is around $1,000 cheaper than the MBP, even when adding a DVD making app. It's true that the MB is only a little more expense than Windows config, but just check that MBP and you'll be shocked. I was exploring one for my nephew until i found the price difference, then even found a $500 off coupon for the HP and upgraded everything, including a RAID 0 with two 7200 RPM HD's, 4GB RAM, the top end CPU, so still got it for around $1,500, because of all the discounts. Check the HP website. If Apple made a $500 cheapo laptop with a cheap 14 or 15 in screen, I would have bought it. But my laptop needs are very basic, so it was a no brainer.
Nothing special here..... Hardly anything you can't get from any other hardware vendor cheaper....
new track pad? whats the big deal?
new case mfg. process? who the heck cares. I have had many a notebook over the years from plastic to metal, all have worked perfectly find, never broken, never cracked, never dented......
Waethorn,
I won't send the whole thread of in a discussion of hyperthreading, but we benchmarked our codes with HT on/off and found something like 1-2% differences. Now, like most codes with a long legacy base (Fortran, no less) the code wasn't designed for a P4s with HT (aside from being old, it had to run on everything), so the only benefit we could get, since the floating point code was not MT, was simultaneous use of the integer processing. Since the code had essentially none of that, we got no benefit. I don't doubt that you can do slightly better if you design the code from the ground up with HT in mind, but we didn't have that luxury. This was circa 2003, so HT may have evolved since then; don't know.
Two links on these new machines, the Macworld first look and an Apple movie on the design and manufacturing of these things.
www.macworld.com/.../macbook_first_look.html
movies.apple.com/.../apple_new_macbook_video_20081014_r848-9cie.mov
People here will predictably find the movie inspirational or sheer puffery. It IS a commercial, no doubt of it, and the manufacturing process is utterly routine, except that it hasn't been applied to laptops before. However, they do make these things look gorgeous and they're gonna sell like hotcakes. I will say that Ives believes in his soul that these products need to be gorgeous, and his philosophy sure works for me; it makes me WANT to use these things, and that's why they'll be best sellers.
Yes, Windows a PC can be purchased for less money than an equivalent Apple PC. There is no question about that. But, like I have said many times, if a person wants (I would say needs, but I know what the reaction would be) to run OS X, the only other choice is Pystar and I am not sure what the status of that is. Every buyer is unique in their needs and desires, and that must be taken into account when making a recommendation. There need to be many other things considered as well...but we all know this. This epic Microsoft vs Apple battle is only real in the eyes of the zealots...while Gates, Ballmer, Jobs, and the rest of them sit back and reap the rewards. Hey, thats cool. But, don't think for a minute that any of them give a damn about what Thurrott or Mossburg or Pogue or you or I think about it...
GO COWBOYS!!!
"the code wasn't designed for a P4s with HT (aside from being old, it had to run on everything), so the only benefit we could get, since the floating point code was not MT, was simultaneous use of the integer processing. Since the code had essentially none of that, we got no benefit."
You don't "optimize for HT" - you just make it multi-threaded. Windows will balance the threads for itself. If the code isn't multi-threaded, then HT, multi-core, or multi-CPU will be equally unbeneficial.
As far as the new MacBook's are concerned, I find them unattractive. The black-on-silver colour treatment is UGGGH-LY! Make it black, or make it silver, but don't combine the colours. Ick!
BTW: The white-on-silver treatment from the Apple keyboard is equally bad.
I'd love to see a keyboard with clear-plastic keys, with the letters underneath them. LED backlighting would also be kinda neat since it would illuminate the edges of the keys.
"Windows will balance the threads for itself. If the code isn't multi-threaded, then HT, multi-core, or multi-CPU will be equally unbeneficial."
Just to be a little more precise, you will get some benefit from HT, multi-core or multi-CPU systems even on code that isn't written to support multithreading because while that app will be running on one core, the other processes in the system will migrate to the less used cores so you'll end up with at least a little use of the other cores.
One thing I have noticed about discussions in the tech world is that when people start saying, "well, it's not a good choice for me but it's good enough for [insert other user type]" then their argument usually is bogus. It's only when people are willing to make the change themselves that its a sign of an actually acceptable alternative.
"So how do you boot up an external hard drive that has a clone of your MAC OS that has been made with a utility like superduper?"
All Intel Macs support booting off of USB2
"Oh, really? Like the $200 JVC MiniDV camera I bought from Sam's Club?"
Probably the exception these days. My new Sony (huge backer of firewire) hard drive based camcorder is USB 2.0 only. My old tape Sony was firewire only.
The Macbook is an entry level notebook for Apple. Most macbook users probably dont use firewire.
My Canon video camera I bought last year connects via USB2. I think this is the direction that things are heading.
I have a number of Firewire 400 peripherals which means that after receiving the MacBook Pro I ordered yesterday, I'll have to get an adapter, but that's not really a big deal.
@mike:
I think I said that already....
Applications need to be multi-threaded to get a benefit from multi-[CPU] themselves. Multitasking is handled by Windows automatically though. You could have 20 CPU's, all multi-core/Hyperthreading, but if all you're doing is running a single app on Windows, and it's not multi-threaded, you won't see any real performance benefit from the other 19 CPU's (assuming you don't have oodles of background tasks running).
"My new Sony (huge backer of firewire) hard drive based camcorder is USB 2.0 only. My old tape Sony was firewire only."
....which reinforces my claim that users use hard drive and DVD camcorders more often than tape ones now.
"My Canon video camera I bought last year connects via USB2."
And is it Mini DV???
I think that we all know that Paul is a proxy that MS has 'hired' in their fight with Apple.
I found it interesting that Wikipedia notes that his integrity has been called into question...and also that the discussion page seems to insinuate that he's tried to have that part of the writeup taken down.
>> Toshiba also released some really nice laptops today. They didn't get hardly any press.<<
Thats their fault; not apples, not the presses.
>>Come to think of it, there seem to be a lot of innovators out there that don't seem to get anywhere near the mention they deserve...<<
They need to hire new marketers then.
That or some -B- list bloggers.
"All Intel Macs support booting off of USB2"
Yep, and sometimes doesn't work. I could not do it trying two different USB2 drives cloned from a "Disk Utility" "Restore", which makes an exact bootable copy. The copy would boot using spare internal drives, but the Intel Mac Pro Tower [3GHz Quad with 4GB RAM] would not boot on two different external USB drives. I then got an old FW CD burner and replaced the CD drive with a 160GB IDE HD, cloned with Disk Utility "Restore" function, and it worked. Not a good choice get rid of FW on the new Macs, IMO.
>>So, the $800 Mac was more wishful thinking on the part of the Mac-obsessed reporters and bloggers than actual news? <<
As Daringfireball says:
<<Riley is the one and only source for this $800 laptop rumor, it wasn’t even close to true, and it is dominating post-event news coverage and quite possibly a significant factor in Apple’s stock price dropping 5 points on the day.
Bonus jackass points to Sanford Bernstein financial analyst Toni Sacconaghi, who took Riley’s unsourced rumor and published a detailed spreadsheet full of fantasy numbers proving that an $800 Apple laptop would fill the sky with rainbows from coast to coast.>>
>>I think Dell and other notebook manufacturers believe Apple whiffed today.<<
I think Dell and others have also thought that after each iteration of the iMac and certainly with each iteration of the iPod.
I can look up the quotes if you want, but everyone knows that its true.
tayme, let me know how the sister's Acer visit goes and if you have any pearls of wisdom.
Thanks,
Doc.
>>Every buyer is unique in their needs and desires, and that must be taken into account when making a recommendation.<<
Well said. Close and lock the thread.
Ocean, you citing RoughlyDrafted just put your credibility points in the negative.
(and your remaining IQ points in the toilet)
A couple of points here.
First, within the entire year of any given year, new notebooks and updated notebooks come out. Yet none of them come close to having the fanfare and press coverage of Apple. Lets be honest here. Is a simple refresh really worth of that amount of coverage? No. Apple does get an ungodly amount of press coverage even for most things that shouldn't waste press space. New car models that get refreshes only get a tiny amount of coverage. Its shows a clear Apple bias and it shows a lot of the psuedo-Tech journalist have an Apple bias. Yet not one journalist has looked at the actual construction cost of the Mac products and see if their's actual justification in the final sticker price.
Nobody disputes that the Macbooks aren't good products. Our problem here is the almost religion like worship of their fans and their disparaging attitude. I don't have to point fingers at the teardown, disparaging comments made by their uber fans in here. The proof is in the commentary. It doesn't make an argument to call people names and make broad generalizations.
The simple reality is that the computer is a tool, not a fashion statement or a piece of jewelry. Making a notebook anymore than it is, makes no sense. Why do you need some company to define you? It seem its more flaunted as a status symbol and not a working device.
This why Apple gets labeled frequently for style over substance. Insufficient amount of frequently used ports is something I witnessed several Macbook owners having. USB is versatile, but come on. Watching them struggle and fumble around with USB hubs was sad. I've seen this a lot. Many Windows users and Linux owners watching this and shaking their heads. I've seen this in the bookstores with wifi, coffeeshops, the libraries I use, and in restauraunts over the year.
I would never argue that Apple doesn't do a great job. I can see a lot of the benefits. My issues with Apple are clear.
First of which is the cost. I recently had a chat with a Mac user and we had a lovely conversation about many subjects. She revealed to me that she had to take a loan out for her Macbook. I was like, "You have got to be kidding me?" She insisted she had to because of her major. Loans are for cars, homes, college tuition/board, and major things. When you have to get a PC or a Mac on a loan, that says to me excess not value. Maybe its because I live in a middle class neighborhood. Many of the folks I grew up with always seen Apple as a luxury and not necessarily economical. However, I've seen diligent PC users match or exceed the same life as Macs.
Second, the hardcore Mac users. I don't want to be associated with folks who are just rude and praising the dishonest marketing of that company. Its just wrong. Also, we have those Mac users calling us fangirls and all kinds of nonsense. To me, if you have to insult your opponent, you lost your argument. You have nothing good to say, so you resort to a slander.
Finally, the issues recently with Leopard and the percieved instability that I've frequently read among Mac users. This year alone, Leopard has been patched over 250 times. The reports are all over the net. Then there's the vulnerability issues which I've addressed again and again. Leopard is frequently being patch for these security vulnerabilities and bug fixes. However both XP and Vista can boast that two months of this year, they had no patches necessary for both respective operating systems. Apple can't say that. Yet that achievement didn't get much press
Since I'm sure someone in this blog is going to insist that I'm on drugs, a fan girl, that I don't "Think Different", insist I'm a moron, or some other insult or slur, I'll just let them do it. When they actually have something positive, unique, or something that furthers an actual discourse, I'll listen. Until then, go ahead start the smear campaign.
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