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True.

The arrogance is much stronger in their stores. It pisses me off when I go in there with a problem with my iPod Touch and tell them I use windows. They seem to want to blame the OS and try to convince me to leave Windows when it is clearly a problem with their own buggy software.

Pic'y no worky, Paul.

"the computer for the rest of us"

"Let them eat cake", too, eh Steve?

That is funny!! Loved the last line.

Great satire on the MBA view that it's not a crap product it is simply a communication or perception problem that can be fixed by repeating a big lie. Call Marketing.

Where Apple score is that they have the products to backup the message, MS don't. Even though I am still a bit upset about the overuse of glossy screens on their products now.

lighten up man. its not that serious.

That Right paul

Love the sarcastic way you wrote your article, It's true Apple Fanboy can’t help it to be arrogant I it’s sad. I tired of this I’m Pc, I'm Mac ads and even more tired of their lies. I Love my windows vista and I don’t have to be proud of it, I just have to love it and not force other to do it.

I'm a PC!!

I'm a PC!!

This one is going to be fun to watch.

Paul, you didn't mention the second ad they also launched at the same time, possibly meant to hit back at the fact Microsoft has done away with their Vista name for Windows 7:

www.youtube.com/watch

I thought they were pretty amusing, but I wish they'd do more for selling their own products rather than slating the opposition (as easy as that might be).

I wish MSFT would create a commercial showing the money getting sucked out of a person by Apple. Ohh we can get you a 2ghz Core2Duo .. It'll only cost you $1300

this makes me think Apple is scared to discuss the EULA in court.......

news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10068824-37.html

"I wish MSFT would create a commercial showing the money getting sucked out of a person by Apple. Ohh we can get you a 2ghz Core2Duo .. It'll only cost you $1300"

I wonder if Ballmer was hinting on the next round with the term "Apple Tax"....

This unfortunately is the butt end of Apple and the company as a whole.

Don't get me wrong their OS is good, and the hardware is nice. But it's not the be all end all.

And I find Vista to be brilliant on my cheap as chips Core2Duo machine (faster than an iMac at a fraction of the price.)

This however is a real case of sour grapes. The Think Different campaign at least had a weight of intellect and thoughtfulness in it. This however reminds me of monkeys flinging s**t at each other.

Unpleasant and childish. Apple can do much better than this.

The stench of desparation coming off these latest two attack ads is pretty pathetic. What a sad end for a company that used to be known for innovation.

These past two ads are, actually, libelous, like Paul said.  I used to say "deceptive," but they crossed that line even further.

It's like saying that Windows 7 is rebranded Vista.  Although I am with Paul (and everyone else) that it's not a major release, it is simply misstating the facts.

It's also funny how they mention "problems with Vista" but fail to actually demonstrate any (or identify the specific ones).

Not to mention the hypocricy of the ad that Paul outlines...

My jaw literally dropped when I saw them.

@Mike

It seems to me the apple innovation in the last few rounds, more so with the recent notebooks, to be innovating fixes to problems that really are not problems..... IE flex in laptops and their block of aluminum fud.

First, the phrase "jumped the skark" jumped the shark long ago. You can do better.

Second, Apple has a once-in-a-generation ad campaign here: short, sweet, funny, effective. The particulars about the ads don't even matter. There's no earthly reason they should stop or change them to respond to MS's ads, which admit it, the public is only dimply aware of, at best, by comparison.

First, if the Apple ads are "libelous", so is Tina Fey when she does Sarah Palin.

Kind of like the "Fun with Headlines" thing you do, which aren't "true" and not intended to be taken that way. It's called satire. And, Microsofts counter-ads were mostly inscrutable, and certainly didn't render the "I'm a Mac/PC" ads moot.

The exact amount of money spent on ads by Microsoft to promote Vista is north of $300M, not chump change even for Microsoft. I don't know how much they're spending "fixing Vista", but they've sure spent a lot trying to salvage the Vista brand.

And that brand failure is the serious issue that has you so upset.

As Gruber points out this morning, Microsoft has already given up on the Vista brand. Fair or not, Vista is a failed brand. Microsoft now realizes this and is moving to disconnect "Vista" from "Windows", which is still known and respected.

That's a smart move. Telling, but smart.

I'm sure I'll be attacked for that statement, but it's Microsoft that is admitting this by their behavior. Plus, this is what we call a testable hypothesis: If I'm right, the word "Vista" will just disappear in the next six months to the same limbo as "Windows ME" and "Bob". We'll see.

Apple is doing something smart, using humor and satire to make a point about the failure of Vista as a consumer brand. I think what has you angry is your feeling that Apple's ads CAUSED that failure, while I think they've just made good use of a widespread perception that was already out there.

I have no idea if that perception is fair or accurate, I've never used Vista*.

However, Apple has exploited the public perception of Vista and made a pitch perfect rejoinder to Microsoft's attempt to counter the Apple ads. Charlatans? Nah, it's just effective advertising that you don't like. Don't worry, Microsoft still outsells Apple 32:1  :).

*The reason I've never used Vista is that my workplace strictly forbids installing Vista on any of our PCs. Breaks too many things. This is also telling.

I own a last gen MacBook Pro with Vista on it, and I totally get what Paul is saying. It's Apple's hypocrisy that's annoying. I don't have blind devotion to anyone, whether it be a god, a government or a corporation. It's sometimes embarrassing as a Mac user to think that people might associate me with the obsequious and irrational sheep-like behavior of so many Mac fans. You can't have used Vista lately (or properly) if you don't think this constant barrage of "Vista doesn't work" is nothing but a lie. And no matter how much I love my Mac, the truth matters more.

It's just disingenuous to suggest that Apple's products work and Microsoft's products don't. Talk to my girlfriend who had a nightmare upgrade experience with Leopard on her Macbook. To deny Macs have problems too is to lie. Many of the problems that people have with Windows is due to badly written drivers or software by third-party companies, so it's actually amazing that Windows works as problem free as it does. The small, yes very small, number of problems that some people have is, in my opinion, a small price to pay for the greater choice and value on the Windows side.

I still want to get a couple of more years out of this laptop, but considering the number of (and cheaper) choices for hardware on the Windows side, there is a good chance my next computer won't be a Mac.

I think they are hilarious.

And I love Pauls faux-outrage.  Apple is just keeping its name in peoples mind...and thats all the ads are designed to do.

Epic win here.

>>The stench of desparation coming off these latest two attack ads is pretty pathetic.<<

Desperate for what?

I guess Leo was right about Paul's reaction.

I still think of MS as the High School football team and Apple as the A/V club so anything that makes me laugh at MS/Football jocks I enjoy. Oh my! The 90%+ market share guys are hurt...

Apple ads have never been about facts, they use satire and parody to sell. Both companies sell products that are functionally virtually identical. Vista/Leopard, iPod/Zune, I've bought both brands. I don't cry over soap powder advertising that says Brand A is better than Brand B & C. Do I care if one company does better than another? Do I care if MS comes out with an ad saying Steve Jobs worships the devil? No. I think Paul confuses MS with the Sox or the Celtics as an organization worthy of veneration. MS/Apple will both take our money with equal glee. You won't see Bostonians running around the streets celebrating the release of Windows 7.

Enough with the faux hurt feelings about a 30 second ad and start filling this blog with stuff that will make my life easier (or at least make your rants funny) or change the title to Whinesupersite.

Chuck

You've almost got the analogy right.

The original Apple attack ads did have the feel of Karl Rove. Evil, manipulative and with no concern for truth but well done.

These, however, have the panicked feel of a second rate student of Karl Rove charged with selling Sarah Palin's competence.

Again, a sad end for a company that used to be known for innovation.

Oh yeah this is going to be good stuff.  Got your panties in a knot did they?????  Pushing your buttons is too easy Paul.

The apple commercials are humor, plain and simple, that reflect the problems people have with Vista.  The "I am a PC" commercials are a snooze-fest that are not funny or inspiring.  

I was at a 2008 Server class this last week, 6430a and a major training partner of Microsoft's.  Our PC's we used were running XP 64bit on some Dell desktops, dual core's with 4gigs or RAM.  I asked the instructor why not Vista 64?  The answer "Vista runs Virtural PC 2007 slower and uses to much memory and leaves less for the VM's".  The real world of "I am a PC" is not all rosy.

On the hardware cost quote "they did so even though the “average price [of a Mac was already] more than twice as high as computers based on Microsoft’s Windows operating system."  That is a total lie.  The Macbook went up and that is what they are talking about, or at least the new model did, the old model dropped to $999.  

Lets compare the new Macbook to the #1 and #2 notebook manufactures.  Go get your best quote for a dv3500t (HP) and a XPS M1330 (Dell) both 13.3 inch notebooks.  Get the specs as close as you can to the lowest priced new Macbook.  They wont even come close to being "more than twice as high".

I doubt any one will bother to do the price comparison.

"Enough with the faux hurt feelings about a 30 second ad and start filling this blog with stuff that will make my life easier (or at least make your rants funny) or change the title to Whinesupersite"

Thanks for the gut busting laugh!!!

Paul, the only one that's jumped the shark is you.  A man who routinely attacks and smears whole groups of people with bile and bigoted generalizations, yet somehow can find justification in marshaling the charge of "libel" in Apple's advertising.

You are nothing more than an unofficial (or maybe paid, who knows) extension of Microsoft's marketing department.  Your cheerleading and boosterism of every single move Microsoft has made in their advertising is so mindless, it can only be the function of payola or delusion.  Mojave Experiment? Awesome.  Seinfeld ads? Brilliant!  Apple Tax? Of course!

Even if I were a fan of Microsoft, I'd find your commentary to be completely devoid of thought.  Meanwhile, Microsoft puts out completely disingenuous comparison charts in an attempt to back up their "Apple Tax" slam.  And you cheerlead them all the way.

www.macobserver.com/.../15.9.shtml

You have no credibility when it comes to Apple.  Zero.  Any respect I had for you I've long since lost.

You are a hack and a shill.  Plain and simple.  I hope it's paying off for you, pal.  It's not going to earn you any respect by the thoughtful people of this world.

ps - to mike galos

"What a sad end for a company that used to be known for innovation."

Sad End?  Huh?  What are you even talking about?  Is there other life on your planet?  Are any of you people prepared to eat your words come this week's earnings report?  I'm gonna guess no.

Apple announces earnings tomorrow.  We'll see how much it's a "sad end for them."

Hey everybody,  Apple's *officially* jumped the shark again.  Paul Thurrot said so.

"This ad says so much about Apple (and so little about Microsoft) that I actually laughed out loud the first time I saw it online (and not for the reasons Apple was hoping)."

Sadly, they're still saying quite a lot about the strange panicked moves MS have been making lately. What the ads are saying is that the ridiculous money Microsoft spent on the two-week Jerry Seinfeld marketing campaign that was pulled, the pathetic "I'm a PC" follow-up, and their horrible internal videos lately is all coming out of the buyer's pockets (which it does regardless of what they put into software development), and that Microsoft's efforts lately seem to focus on brand building (which they indeed seem to). And saying this in two seemingly low- cost ads only accentuates the message.

Mike,

We may agree on Karl Rove and Sarah Palin :).

However, you're quite wrong about Apple. The humorous ads they run annoy you and Paul, but they're just ads. As others have said, the shark jumping here has been done by Paul. His reaction is TOTALLY over the top, and the relevant political analogy is the fake outrage over the "lipstip on a pig" remark.

Let's see what others have said.

PC World:

www.pcworld.com/.../Apple.html

"Apple reacted this weekend to Microsoft's $350 million advertising campaign with two new "Get a Mac" spots mocking the company's exuberance when it comes to Vista's advertising budget. They are as funny as ever."

"Both new ads counter Microsoft's latest advertising campaign for Windows Vista, dubbed as a disaster by many critics."

IT Wire:

www.itwire.com/.../53

"Hot on the heels of the embarrassingly bad Microsoft Seinfeld adverts comes a new Apple campaign that goes straight for the Vista jugular with great effect. "

"At the time we said we were surprised that more than 90 percent of the user group were upbeat and positive regarding Windows Mojave, giving it a 'wow factor' response that Microsoft had always wanted for Vista.

We also said it smacked of desperation, and it is just that desperation that Apple would appear to have seized upon with this new advertising campaign."

Wired:

blog.wired.com/.../apple-shoots-sp.html

"With both Apple and Microsoft directly referencing each other in their ads, this volley is getting to be a bit of insider baseball."

"These ads may not make much sense to consumers who aren't paying close attention to the tug of war between Apple and Microsoft, but they do highlight one difference between the two companies. When Apple throws a criticism at Microsoft, it usually hits the target."

Of all that, the most important comment may be the "inside baseball". I don't think you'll get much outrage from the great wide world. Most people will find it funny, and pay little attention to it.

But Paul's fake outrage is so overdone it's funny.

1 When you have customer benefits, sell benefits

2 When you don't have customer benefits, sell features

3 When you don't have features, sell image

4 When you don't have image, attack your competitor's product

5 When you can't attack your competitor's product, create a straw man and attack it

btw... the I'm a PC ads are indeed very nice and strong counter to Apple's campaign.  Mojave and the seinfeld stuff were garbage, but "I'm a PC" is very strong.  People like Paul just don't seem to get that the only reason Apple's campaign is effective is because it resonates as true for many people.  That's the inconvenient truth of the matter that Paul can't argue away... especially when so many within the ranks of Microsoft have acknowledged the troubles.  That Paul is more strident in his defense of Vista than Microsoft's own exec (including and especially Ballmer and Gates) is bizarre.

Although my $400 Vista laptop works very well, I must admit that the "Apple Tax' slam from MS is equally deceitful and libelous. To deliberately mislead is wrong. Since all of you claim it wrong for Apple, then it's also wrong for Microsoft to do as well, but only more harmful as Apple has more to lose. Goliath steps on David once again.

Did I mention that my Vista laptop was only $400?

The political analogy is Fox news and their FR@KING obsession with trying to tie Bill Aires and Acorn to Obama.  It looks desperate on their part because they fear loosing the election.

Much like Pauls obsession with trying to make Apple look bad.  Its actually worse in the case because MS has lost in court many times for being the "bad" party in all of this.

Maybe Paul will become a Fox News Technical contributor and get rid of the black Macbooks they use at the lunch time hour:)

Who pi$$ed in your Wheaties this morning, Paul?

I own Mac and Windows PC's and see most of the ads. But they just don't seem to persuade me. I bought my laptop because of the price and ability to perform all of the functions that I need. I guess PT Barnum's point that there's a sucker born every minute could mean that some will be persuaded to purchase because of the ads, but I would bet not most. Ads keep the product and company in recognition that they exist, but I would bet they don't persuade most potential buyers, especially in this economy. Many would love to have a more expensive car, but will settle for what's more affordable as they all do the same thing.

"Desperate for what?"

You already answered that in your previous statement:

"Apple is just keeping its name in peoples mind"

Gee Paul,

You forget your pills?

As for Mike, What the f&%K are you smoking?  Apple's growth is nearly 30% a year when the rest of the industry is growing at about 4%, YEAH APPLE Proudly going out of business since 1990.

Chuck 84, Great quotes, thanks for the effort.

For the rest of you yahoos, for MS fans to yell about Apple's Lying is just too funny, Pot meet Kettle.

Regards

Joe Dokes

"The stench of desparation coming off these latest ... ads is pretty pathetic. What a sad end for a company that used to be known for innovation."

Mike, you're talking about the Seinfeld ads, right?

;-)  <----the all-forgiving wink of forgiveness.

I will agree that ad was pretty stupid mocking Microsoft's ads that are superior to the Im a Mac ads.  I didnt know what to think after watching that ad, it was probobly the worst Apple ad I've seen and they dont even mention the mac at all.

To say that Apple is not innovative is BS though.  There biggest innovation is still the iPhone.  What was Microsoft's last big one?  

RE Mike Galos's comment at 10:23.

Which company are you referring to? It works for both (and all.)

The MS/Seinfeld ad covers which point?

p.s.

Mike, you have many years of MS experience, have you thought of sending some articles to Paul. I'm sure we'd all learn something including Paul. His technical knowledge can be a bit lacking.

Does "Apple Jumps the Shark" put Paul in consideration for yet another entry in Apple Death Knell Counter?

www.macobserver.com/.../index.shtml

I was just listening to twit and Leo was saying he wonders how Paul will respond to the new Ads :D

I agree that Apple is twisting the facts and all these fan boys never look at what Apple is doing themselves.  But why isn't Microsoft doing anything? Should they be more upset than Paul?  

Touche:

news.cnet.com/8300-13860_3-56-1.html

trieste

First, the time posted is adjusted (somewhat incorrectly) for the reader's time zone so, for example, your comment was posted at 9:40 AM here which makes my post of 10:23 something I'll do in about 45 minutes but which will actually be at 9:23 due to the web site's time code not understanding DST. (Confused yet?)

As for the rules post (which I suspect is the one you mean), yes, they apply to everyone doing advertising. Where a company falls on the list is the issue, not that they're on the list.

For example, I'd say that Apple's typical iPod ads fall at #3, "When you don't have features, sell image". Not a lot of benefits or features in an ad that does nothing but show dancing sillouettes. The "nanochromatic" ads could be considered examples of #2 "When you don't have customer benefits, sell features" since colored cases are a feature although they have no real customer benefit.

The best of the "Get a Mac" ads (the actual name of the "I'm a Mac and I'm a PC" ads) are at #4, "When you don't have image, attack your competitor's product" but most, including these two, are clearly smack dab at the bottom of #5, "When you can't attack your competitor's product, create a straw man and attack it"

The Microsoft "I'm a PC" ads are either at #2, "When you don't have customer benefits, sell features" with those pushing the feature of being connected to 1,000,000,000 other PCs (They never actually state the customer benefit of that connection or they'd be at #1) or they're at #3, "When you don't have features, sell image"

>>change the title to Whinesupersite<<

Awesome!

>>Hey everybody,  Apple's *officially* jumped the shark again.  Paul Thurrot said so.<<

+1

The main sentiment i get from this is Apple have so little faith in their own products they need to attack a competitor.

That is rather sad and pathetic

A footnote...

When you are advertising a brand rather than a specific product, it's hard to do better than #3 since features and customer benefits are usually a part of a product and not a brand.

The V-word ad is actually hilarious !

Go see it:

www.apple.com/.../ads

I just love that Apple critics like to hammer on the fact that they only have 3 to 4% global marketshare when compared to Windows-based PCs... but somehow consider it unreasonable or out-of-bounds to build their advertising around reaching out to disaffected or dissatisfied Windows PC users.  Dumb.

Apple can't possibly enumerate the various advantages of the platform in every ad, so they are targeting areas that they feel will resonate with people who aren't already customers (since Apple customers have the highest satisfaction of any computer maker by a large margin).  This inherently means going after weaknesses in the Windows world and convincing those afflicted by said weaknesses that the aren't present on the Mac.

When the spots aren't doing that and just pounding away at Vista, they're negative advertising.  But, as you apple-critics love to point out, Apple is the extreme underdog in computing with puny marketshare.  So attack Goliath is a completely reasonable attack.

Again, the rage against this is perplexing.  But no more perplexing than fundamental contradiction of calling people "lemmings" for making the minority computing choice while trumpeting the use of the 95% option.  Give me a break.

Mike,

I would say the the Get a Mac ads fall under number 6 :-

- If you have a positive image and your competitor does not, amplify and magnify. Repeat at least 30 times and make the campaign last at least 3 years. Receive awards from your fellow ad agencies and plaudits from the industry.

MS are wildly successful and make great products (the original soap-bar mouse 'roolzz!!'), their problem is that they also want to be loved. Respect and admiration (and stacks of cash) seems to not be enough.

Paul's article insults us. It basically says "Wow aren't you glad that I'm perceptive enough to deconstruct these ads.You are so stupid that you completely believe Apple. If it wasn't for me Microsoft would go bankrupt and Apple would rule the universe". The political process seems to follow the same game plan.

Apple make products as good as MS and make laptops that enough people want to buy at the price Apple set. I think the price is a liitle high but hey caveat emptor. Paul purchases them and runs Vista on his which I think is just perverse. Get a Thinkpad Paul!

Just checked with Godaddy

WHINESUPERSITE.COM is available!

Use coupon code crybaby to get your 10% discount (does not apply to preexisting offers) see press for details.

"Use coupon code crybaby to get your 10% discount"  hilarious!!!!!!!!!

@mikegalos

Mike, seriously, in your own particular field you may be an expert but your advertising "rules" are just rubbish! You have created them just to distort them to fit into your (and Paul's) fantasy world where Apple is a lying Tax Man.

1. sell benefits

2. sell features

From Apple's "Get a Mac" campaign. Campaign you understand ... not one single advertisement.

Mac notebooks have a magnetic power cord

Macs don't catch the 114,000 known PC viruses

All Macs come with iLife

Macs run Microsoft Office

You can use a Mac straight from the box

iMacs and MacBooks all come with built in cameras

If you need to .... Macs can run Windows

Macs don't come with bucket loads of trial software

Apple stores have a Genius Bar

Apple stores offer Mac workshops

Macs come with a new back-up feature

etc.

iPod ads.

Here's a new rule for you.

6. When  your target market is fed up to the back teeth of ads listing features..... then throw some tunes and funky dancer silhouettes at them .... and help create one of the most successful CE products of the decade.

"Sad End?  Huh?  What are you even talking about?  Is there other life on your planet?  Are any of you people prepared to eat your words come this week's earnings report?  I'm gonna guess no."

Wow PapSmearola has gone off the deep end(again). I could literally imagine him foaming at the mouth thumping away on his rinky dinky white iKeyboard.

Btw, have you looked at Jobs lately? Skeletor needs to quit the dog and pony show and look after his health. It was uncomfortable watching him and the all the iBoi's collectively go in denial.

This back and forth could be fun though, because AAPL opens them to so much ridicule ifCB&P chooses are direct approach in the couple of phases.

No worries weedpunk, if Apples numbers are not good Paul will blog about it and give you a stage to spew your genius.  

If they are good he wont say a thing, and we wont be able to ask you how it tastes.  Or he will blog about it and say "even thought the numbers are good its easy to grow 30% when you have 1.2% of the solar system market".

"All Macs come with iLife"

woop de doo........ I bet if you really studied what iLife apps get used by the most people it would be only iPhoto and iTunes that got major usage....  one of them being free.....

While I am a windows guy (developer) I do have a mac book, and of the iLife suite these two are the only ones that ever get used, and Neither are all that special.  Same goes for a few mac user friends hardly any use any parts other then photo and tunes.

Alt.Windows Paul?

"Sometimes" you talk about MS' competitors?

This just keeps getting better and better.

What can you say?

Apple has taken on the persona of their childish fanbase.

The Mums, Oceans, Lindys, and johnpapolas of the Apple world have zero issue with ads like this, but would have had a complete meltdown if Microsoft had dared to make somthing similar.

These are not mentally stable people. They have a fanatical devotion to a logo, and company that makes them think they are actually serving a greater purpose by actually acting like extensions of a corporation.

Apple knows that they have a large contegent of people that will excuse anything they do, as you can clearly see with these guys here, so an ad as awful as this is promoted by these guys as clever, and hip, Not because it is, but because they gotta keep on the attack for "Steve".

That is why they attacked Paul for having the never to say what he said. Apple should attack without response, because their word is law.

Really pathetic from Apple.

They look like poorly educated kids, very unsecure about their products.

Otherwise they would focus their ads on the obvious advantages of their product.

It is because of such thing that i strongly dislike them as a company.

I know people that switched to a Mac specifically for iLife and to get away from malware.  

They are really big into photo's, and videos are their kids.  They buy Office and some money management program and they are done.  Everything else they need is on the Mac.

au071 said:

"I agree that Apple is twisting the facts and all these fan boys never look at what Apple is doing themselves.  But why isn't Microsoft doing anything? Should they be more upset than Paul?"

MS put out ads that didnt respond to Apple with the level of immaturity that Apple's fans appreciate from that company.

In the end Apple could have went above the fray, and they didnt.

People like Paul are justified with being sick to death over this level of baloney from that company. And frankly, all CE companies should put their foot down. Apple's ads have frankly gotten to the point where they cant even sell what they've got, and have to act like the equivalent of internet trolls..

Borrowing a phrase:

"How is this convincing me to buy OSX?"

"The Mums, Oceans, Lindys, and johnpapolas of the Apple world have zero issue with ads like this, but would have had a complete meltdown if Microsoft had dared to make somthing similar"

This is where you are so wrong Master.  I dont care for any ad's...period.  I think the Apple adds are at least slightly amusing and quickly get to the point.  I though the Jerry and Bill ads were slightly funny as well, but made no point, other than to pay Jerry 10mil.

Judging upon the awards the Apple ads have won, and the success of the the campaign, I would say like it or not they have succeeded.

All advertising is BS, pure and simple BS for simple people, and I thank the person that created the first DVR.

I think we can read from this that they are going to go all out to remind people that Windows 7 is really Vista II.

""Sad End?  Huh?  What are you even talking about?  Is there other life on your planet?  Are any of you people prepared to eat your words come this week's earnings report?  I'm gonna guess no."

That's all Apple's fans seem to care about.

Ooooooooh, lookie at how much money Apple made. Oooooooh!

Paul didnt say thet they were going to go out of business. What I see is that Apple's act is starting to wear thin. same ads, same products, same old snarky attitude.

There is nothing new under the sun with these guys. All of their latest products are designed just to give their fanatics an excuse to blow more money on an Apple logo product. And toss in the mountain of issues their products are experiences, like today's Macbook shipped with two letter M keys, and a serious person would have to look at them like they are out of their mind when they see an ad like this.

Even looking at the recent coverage of their stage show from a place like Engadget, even they are expressing more yawns than they used to. And Apple DEPENDS on bias blogs to pushed their products for them so they can spend their ad budgets putting out stuff like this.

Lol Master are you so foolish not to see the growth of OSX/Mac's?????  

Do you think the 30% year over year growth is made up?  Or the fact that Apple is the #3 notebook shipper in the US?  Do these facts escape you?

Clearly Apple has smarter people than you working for them and they have deduced that the add campaign they are running is helping drive sales.

Does MS have anything to worry about? No not at all.  Do you act like this is some kind of moral travesty?  Yes.  You need to chill, you sound like Sean Hannity:)

Btw. It takes MSFT two weeks to exceed exceeds Apple's quarterly net income. LMAO

That ad should've been Hodgman with that giant pile of cash and the iBoi with the few stacks.

Reality is a b!tch.

"Windows 7 is really Vista II"

Ocean, Win 7 is not Vista II, it is Vista 1.1 man.

Ah, the usual hordes of iSuckups are up in arms!

No surprise. Fecking mindless drones. Ever stopped to think how Apple could know how much Microsoft is spending to improve Vista? Leave it to the apologists and iSuckups to justify slander and deception as satire and humor. Unscrupulous hypocrites.

You could buy style with gobs of money, but you can't buy taste.

"I think we can read from this that they are going to go all out to remind people that Windows 7 is really Vista II."

And you wont care a wiff.

Now if MS did an ad calling "Snow Leopard", Leopard with a $120 white spray paint finish, imaging the collective cow people would have

MS wont, because they dont go down to Apple's level.

In the long run MS will become way more respected. That is likely one of the reasons Apple keeps try to goat MS with ads like this. Apple cant afford that to happen.

Apple = Childish :) I can't say it any better!

All of the Mac fanboys are just followers and will always Protect the name of the iMac.

Mike Galos point on "innovation" is valid and absolutely correct! Where is the innovation from Apple?

1. Extruded aluminum case or did apple say they use laser to cut the case out? Do I as a consumer really care if the case was "hand made" in Italy or manufactured on high speed assembly in Ghanzou ? Absolutely not! It might be beneficial for apple where they can rack in more profit but certainly not for me as a consumer . It is still does the same thing, run Microsoft Office (MAC), browse the net, write emails etc.

2. iphone innovation? Please excuse me. Where is the innovation?  Oh did you say the optical sensor? iI was not apple who invented it. The G Sensor for switching from portrait to landscape? Already done by other vendors long back. Sync with my mail and address book on mac/pc - Already done long time back by Microsoft, Sony, NOKIA, and other companies including open source funambol.com. The eco system where people can buy and sell mobile software? There is millions of software written in JAVA, WINMO etc nothing new here. Pick your choice from Handago and so many other places on the net. All I can say is dismal video quality; poor signal reception and myriads of problems that people complain in the iphone forums – if you call that innovation. Not to mention being controlled by Apple what software can be developed and installed on my phone - sounds very communistic to me.

3. Let us see some real innovation come through from Apple. The floppy disk and the concept of creating sector “0” was developed by Apple by Steve Wozniak –  innovation beyond belief at its time, which became a standard that even IBM supported it and developed it further. Not that Apple has not provided us with innovation they did – but I do not see it anymore and if you have not guessed it by now, I started my software engineering career writing assembler code in 6502 on Apple IIe and moved on to DOS, OS/2,  and Windows. Yes I have used macbook pro and I do not see anything special about it compared to VISTA or for that matter window XP. The under pinning of Tiger/Leopard OS is BSD Unix – not something that apple developed any way. The Aqua interface and the object orientated way of programming was smart compared to windows XP in terms of look & feel, but I certainly prefer the glass effect of AERO more modern and contemporary and the .NET platform as a development platform is way beyond what Apple Developers can even think.

4. For those who complain that VISTA is broken and a big bad product of Microsoft – please tell us exactly what is wrong with VISTA. I will take the case up with engineering in Redmond. I have a Sony VIAO TZ running VISTA Business, MS Office, Visual Studio 2008, SQL Server Express 2008 etc. It has never crashed, and considering that I am doing quite a bit of development it runs fine. I really do not see what the issues are.

"Clearly Apple has smarter people than you working for them and they have deduced that the add campaign they

Does MS have anything to worry about? No not at all.  Do you act like this is some kind of moral travesty?  Yes.  You need to chill, you sound like Sean Hannity:)"

Wow, that's super.

In he end you look like jerks, but you ...well not you, Apple is, your just a toady, are making money.

Congrads!

Go Microsoft GO!!!!

I'm a PC !

PS .

Paul

How spends Apple  on advertising ??

$ 1 Biolion ?

Sheesh, there's a lot of hand-wringing here.  My review of the new Apple commericial:

It was funny.

The End.  

You've got to be able to laugh at yourself, people.

Pingback from  TweakHound&#8217;s Blog &raquo; It&#8217;s Official: Apple Jumps the Shark

For Lindy, JP, Cecjr, and others who for whatever reason can't comprehend why rational people should be actually offended by the ads:

They ARE libelous (probably, actually, slanderous) in that they make misrepresentation of the truth that is damaging to an entity.  Yes, they are otherwise funny and well done, but the premise is false.

They do result in huge misreprentations of reality like chuckb84 - a person who admittedly has no idea what he is talking about, yet has a preconceived notion against a product.

Lindy, don't know the particulars of your example, obviously, but the claim that Vista uses more RAM smacks of the misrepresentation I encounter all the time which refers to prefetched allocation as used RAM.  Even with otherwise experienced people.  

The Apple ads and the misinformed press (that same PCWorld quoted above as a "favorable" reaction to these adds) created - not contributed to, but created - a negative image for Vista with, often, little basis.

This, to me, is a huge failure of the process.  The entities that are there to inform and advise did something quite the opposite - misinformed and thus provided bad advice (oh, and Mary W, just to pick a point from you, no Macs do not run Office - they run Mac Office, but it's not really the same, particularly not the most recent incarnation that doesn't have VBA...at least until the next version)

But that is not half as bad as intentially misinforming the public with negative information about the competitor's product - that, I think is illegal.

Jump the shark implies a sudden, absurd, or out-of-the-ordinary change. Apple's Get a Mac ads always had smirk, anti-Windows undertone.

ibarskiy

"They do result in huge misreprentations of reality like chuckb84 - a person who admittedly has no idea what he is talking about, yet has a preconceived notion against a product."

Actually, I said Vista is a failed brand. That's a statement of what I think others think, not my own opinion. The evidence is the Microsoft is distancing itself from its own product, increasingly just talking about Windows, not "Windows Vista".

I have no "preconceived notion" about Vista, because I haven't used it. I DO have an opinion about what the world at large seems to think of the product, and there is a huge amount of evidence to back that up. I don't say the impression is necessarily fair or accurate, but it is very widespread.

The Apple ads grate on some because it's humor with a real edge. If the stereotype of Vista didn't exist, Apple couldn't exploit it.

But, relax, Microsoft will continue to outsell Apple 32:1 :)

WAH WAH WAH CRY BABY!

Someone is just upset his Red Sox lost last night, you're the ultimate hypocrite Paul, seriously. Just STFU, you only write about Apple this way to get hits and ad revenue, admit it. Don't give me the excuse "I use their products". No you don't, you use an iPhone and an iPod, you don't use your laptops fulltime, you're just a casual consumer who briskly uses their products so you can feel justified in insulting Apple.

You can slander Apple, spread bullshit claims about them and their fanbase yet it's never okay for them to do the same?

Do you not even remember the bullshit claims Microsoft has claimed in the past about the Linux community and Linux software? I guess you have selective memory, maybe you need to take your mouth off the crack pipe and realize MS has a history just as bad as Apple.

Only problem with your anger is, most consumers don't care. Tech geeks don't make up the majority by leaps and bounds and frankly consumers don't like Vista, a $300 million advertisement isn't going to change squat with the perception problem. You only have 1 shot at a first impression. Microsoft thought consumers would f*ck on the first date, bad move.

"If the stereotype of Vista didn't exist, Apple couldn't exploit it."

Exactly!

Vista is a failed brand

MS isn't going to use the Vista name anymore

Apple is going to tie the next the next release of Windows to the Vista name...since MS has basically said that Windows 7 is Vista II (or 1.1)

chuck - didn't mean to understate your reserved post.

But also, you did make the statement that some of your enterprise apps break under Vista, implicitly blaming Vista for it, when it's in fact the enterprise apps, probably almost 100% (enterprise software is often quite poorly written, there was a good article about it by Ou when he was still at ZDNet).

I could go on how pre-Vista Windows opponents have always criticized MS's desire for compatibility in favor of better system design, and now everybody's taken a 180 turn with rhetoric...

Ocean, are you high?  What does it mean they won't use it anymore?  For Windows 7 - a different product?!  Is there Vista rebranding going on that nobody's aware of?

WTF are you talking about?  Is the fact that Leopard is called Leopard indicative of Apple's dissatisfaction with Tiger brand?

Its not really a different product.

Windows 3.1, Windows 95, Windows NT, Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows Vista, Windows 7.

If this were a logic test, what is next in the sequence?

To all the pro Apple , just tell me why Apple needs to lower itself by using such ads if Mac are so great ?

Can't they just focus on the advantages of their computers instead of wasting their and our time continuously attacking Windows ?

Are they jealous of the superior profits of Microsoft compared to their ?

Are they frustrated because Microsoft is exactly where they desperately want to be, a.k.a the absolute leader of PC O.S market ?

Moreover, they need to put their facts together.

Either they try to target relatively rich costumers as proven by the price of their computers, the arrogance and the elitism shown by them starting by "Lord" Steve Jobs.

Or they want to target the same market as Microsoft then they need to be less arrogant and to sell significantly cheaper computers especially in the current economic situation world wide.

Also to target the same market as Microsoft come to a cost.

This guy is no Mac fan

blogs.zdnet.com/hardware

But, he says

"it doesn’t matter whether you like Vista or hate Vista, the fact that the name is tarnished is now inescapable. If Microsoft’s Mojave Experiment proved anything, it was how toxic the “V” word had become. And Microsoft knows this, hence the focus on the word “Windows” in the latest series of ads, and the decision to name the next version of the OS Windows 7.

It’s now time for Microsoft to do what car makers and antivirus companies have been doing for years - put the old stuff into a new wrapper, slap on a new name, and hope that people don’t catch on."

Just what Gruber said earlier. Vista, as a brand, is dead. Even Microsoft knows this.

ibarskiy, you're right about the enterprise apps. I don't think ours are very well written. As an end user (and not a very good one) of XP, I just do what they tell me. The irony is our IT people avoid Vista for essentially the same reasons they don't like Macs; it's just more work for them.

Ocean, once again, by that standard, should Leopard by called Tiger 1.1 and is therefore an indictment on the failure of Tiger brand?

Windows 7 is Windows Vista part II.  The name change is branding.

Tim:  Apples advertising is designed to do nothing else but keep it forefront in peoples minds.  Most people use a Win X. box, and Apple wants them to think of Apple the next time they want to upgrade.

They use humor to do it (and so far,  it  has  worked)

The Mojave Experiment only proved that under clean room conditions, when not having to install or configure anything that Vista could be considered alright.

Meanwhile in the real world.....

@ timiteh  

"To all the pro Apple , just tell me why Apple needs to lower itself by using such ads if Mac are so great ?

Can't they just focus on the advantages of their computers instead of wasting their and our time continuously attacking Windows ?"

It's frankly bizarre behavior for a company whos products we are led to believe are so superior by its fanatics to put out such obvious, dishonest ads that promote nothing that they do.

One has to led to the conclusion that they dont really see themselves as anything special.

And frankly for them to sqwak about the supposed problems with Vista while almost all of their products are experiencing all types of defects is just astonishing.

You would think the Apple users posting here would be intellectually honest enough to even admit that. Apparently they cant, so they just attack.

MS can do uplifting, inspirational ads, Apple has basically proved MS's point by showing that they cant muster up enough enough maturity to do the same.

So, some of you say that Paul writes this to get hits at this site, which it does. Others say it's to piss off Mac fanatics, which it does. I'd have to say that Paul wins.

Mike, if you've solved the problem of a safe, stable wormhole to travel through time, I think that you should share. If you are taking drugs as someone questioned, you should share that too! But I bet that you aren't typing on a $400 [actually $399] Vista laptop like me:) Did I mention that I can buy a 3 yr factory warranty for $99, which guarantees a computer for 3 yrs, for under $500 [$498].

"This guy is no Mac fan"

Huh?  While he may be slightly more agnostic than some others, he has a ton of Mac coverage on his blog, so to label him as not a Mac fan is just simply false.

Again... The prioritized order of advertising strategies:

1 When you have customer benefits, sell benefits

2 When you don't have customer benefits, sell features

3 When you don't have features, sell image

4 When you don't have image, attack your competitor's product

5 When you can't attack your competitor's product, create a straw man and attack it

If all you want is name recognition, you go with 3 at a minimum, 2 or 1 if you can (it depends of whether the name is tied to a product that has actual features and not just a brand image campaign)

If you go with 4 or especially 5, you're not trying for name recognition you're going to damage a competitor or an industry.

Sorry to shatter your illusions.

"Windows 7 is Windows Vista part II.  The name change is branding."

And Snow Leopard is Leopard part 2?

Im not expecting you to be consistent in your answer.

"Tim:  Apples advertising is designed to do nothing else but keep it forefront in peoples minds.  Most people use a Win X. box, and Apple wants them to think of Apple the next time they want to upgrade.

They use humor to do it (and so far,  it  has  worked)"

This isnt humor. This is just making stuff up and hoping their dupe fanatics can pass it off as humor.

And so far, it hasn't worked.

! don't why we PC guys get all upset over these ads, its like we're complaining about the AV geeks. What is Apple's worldwide share, like 4%? So what if they poke fun at Vista, it's not like it's the do-all and be-all of OSs anyway. As for you Paul, I think 'libelous' is a bit inordinate, calling the ads that is stretching things perhaps a bit far. Finally "arrogant jerks". Really Paul, just reading this blog as I occasionally do pretty much convinces me that you and your regular readers don't mind being arrogant jerks, why should Apple?

As chuckb84 says in his post "The Apple ads grate on some because it's humor with a real edge. If the stereotype of Vista didn't exist, Apple couldn't exploit it. But, relax, Microsoft will continue to outsell Apple 32:1 :)"

A whole lot of people here seem to Have Their Knickers In A Bind.

@timiteh you are a full on tool, if you think Apple is lowering its self.

Simple....very simple for some of you.  Its called marketing.  Apple went with this strategy and its working for them, big time right now.  Does in get your panties in a wad, sure but they dont care, and you DONT MATTER.

Now I am sure they are doing market surveys all the time to see how this plays with joe user, (not jo-winsupersitefangirl-user).  If and when this strategy runs out or starts to irk joe user, they will drop it and try to come up with another winner.  Pay Jerry 15 million, to switch:)

This MARKETING strategy not some tragedy like Darfur.  Get over it, enjoy the humor and move on.  If not go on the internet and complain:)

DRWAM

Actually, I'm writing this on a nice year old $600 HP desktop running Windows Vista that I've upgraded with a better video card. (Something I can't do with a Mac desktop unless I'm willing to pay a couple of thousand dollars extra for a Mac Pro)

No wormhole involved and no drugs except for Lipitor, Claritin, vitamins and a little prophylactic aspirin. None of which have an effect on being able to clearly read desperation in an ad campaign.

Ok....enough

I don't understand how some of you keep interjecting politics into these threads.

But enough.

You know what?  I'm a huge Microsoft fan. I also like Macs, own an iPod and an iPhone. I also drive a Jag XJ8.  I'm a conservative fricking Republican! Oh...I like Gov Sarah Palin and agree with her ideals.

So, enough of these little snide liberal San Fransisco jabs from you fricking liberals.

By the looks of it you liberals are going to get your wish in a couple of weeks. Oh wait...you liberals have been in charge of Congress for 2 years and Congress' approval rating is LOWER than that of the President's!

I doubt that that list of strategies is either fact or effective although it may be for some. Even MS doesn't sell benefits or features in its TV ads, at least not over here.

It may work for something like washing powder or yoghurt but not for cars, computers etc. For the latter you are selling an image/lifestyle because, for most people, even the most basic car or computer is serviceable even if there are good technical/scientific reasons for one being better than the other.

"This isnt humor. This is just making stuff up"  Are you sure?  

Was it not MS its self that said they were adding 300 million above and beyond their regular alloted advertising budget to help improve their image.  There were plenty of articles about the company they hired, and purely to help with their image and the image of Vista.  MS said they were going to fight back with this campaign even pointing out Apple and how they have been so vocal.

I mean what happened to this whole campaign?  Are they taking a break for the elections?  Is the world financial problems giving them second thoughts?  What about Jerry?  They were running a steady stream there, Mohave, Jerry/Bill 1, Jerry/Bill 2, I am a PC.......is that all you get for 300 million?

So Apple runs an add using information we all new (MS spending a WAD on more advertising) showing this effort in a funny way and how exactly is that "making stuff up"?????

It is really funny how upset you are are Sean...or umm Master...3.  What happened to 1 and 2??

Delmont

Actually, without a 60 seat majority needed to block filibuster threats or a 67 seat majority needed to override a partisan veto, nobody's been in charge of Congress for the last two years. Hence the problem.

We now return you to religion wars rather than political ones.

chuck,

Adrian usually fawns over everything Apple does, he is definitely anti-Vista (he fancies himself a Windows expert, but a "good" one, the one who sees the light of XP.  Yet every test he does is usually at odds with something that more experienced users run, and he is often way misinformed on stuff).

The only person [that I read from time to time] less credible then him on ZDNet is Robin Harris.

@   Ocean

Snow Leopard is Vista - -  ?

Support GPu?

WOW

scooby

If you can't figure out how to sell the benefits to your audience you don't use #1 (but that's a weakness in the ad agency that they can't figure out how to do their job)

If you can't figure out how to sell the features to your audience you don't use #1 (but that's a weakness in the ad agency that they can't figure out how to do their job)

If you need to go to #4 or #5, it isn't a lack on the audience's part...

Delmont what does Sn Francisco have to with anything?  Is that where McSame is campaigning today?:)

Democracy is so undemocratic these days....

scooby

Democracy may be undemocratic but for a change it's Democratic.

"They look like poorly educated kids, very unsecure [sic] about their products."

"unsecure"?

Oh, the stunning irony. "Poorly educated" indeed.

"Democracy may be undemocratic but for a change it's Democratic."

Point of clarification, "mikegalos"...you don't live under a Democracy, you live in a Republic.

www.lexrex.com/.../demrep.html

(Merging religion and politics)

The Apple ads use the same methodology as the political "jokes" that right-wing associates send me. They both attempt to spread a false meme by using it as the premise for humor on the hope that if you laugh at the joke you'll assume that the premise is true.

In the case of the right-wing smear jokes it's things like "Obama's a muslim" or "Obama's a terrorist" or, back in the 2000 primaries, "McCain has an illegitimate mixed-race child".

In the case of Apple's smear jokes it's things like "Vista is unusable" or "If you want to run Vista you'll need to replace all your hardware" or "If you use Windows you'll be flooded with viruses"

But, as I said earlier, the latest Apple attack ads have the panicked feel of a second rate student of Karl Rove charged with selling Sarah Palin's competence and are a sad end for a company that used to be known for innovation.

lotsa

Actually, I live in a hybrid of several systems, a Federal Republic, a State Republic, a County Republic, a Local Republic and a Neighborhood Democracy. Along with several Non-Governmental and Quasi-Governmental authorities...

>>Again... The prioritized order of advertising strategies:<<

Again:  You're not a marketing guy, and you're making stuff up.

>>Really Paul, just reading this blog as I occasionally do pretty much convinces me that you and your regular readers don't mind being arrogant jerks, why should Apple?<<

Post of the year.

+10

In a stunning volte face Mike Galos wrote :-

"Vista is unusable"

"If you want to run Vista you'll need to replace all your hardware"

"If you use Windows you'll be flooded with viruses"

Politics, it's a dirty game :-)

scooby

And, your reply shows you're as honest as Apple.

:-)

>>Actually, I live in a hybrid of several systems<<

Theres a Borg joke in there somewhere.

Ocean

"Again:  You're not a marketing guy, and you're making stuff up."

Acutally, I spent a year as "a marketing guy" when I was a Developer Evangelist.

Anything else you care to make up out of blind guesswork and present as fact?

Mike, if you share the Lipitor, I can eat even MORE pizza and potato chips [or potatoe chips if you're Republican].

Sorry to hear that the wormhole didn't work out. I was looking forward [or backward] to telling my 12th grade Research teacher to go get bent! She's probably dead by now, so it's too late. My prom date died last February.

Ocean

"Theres a Borg joke in there somewhere"

But since you're such a fan of Apple's ads, first you'd want to figure out what lie you want to push as the premise of the joke.

>>Acutally, I spent a year as "a marketing guy" when I was a Developer Evangelist.<<

LOL

>>since you're such a fan of Apple's ads, first you'd want to figure out what lie you want to push as the premise of the joke.<<

All I can say is that your reaction shows that they are working.

Gruber says:

>>they’re no longer mentioning “Vista” by name but talking only about “Windows” generically. The “Windows 7” moniker fits in with this.

“Vista” has turned into such poison, marketing-wise, that even Microsoft is dropping it.<<

Then he drops a funny one:

>>Microsoft Patents Automatic Audio Censoring

Maybe they can put this technology to use on their “V word” problem.<<

DRWAM

Tsk, tsk. You should know that there's no correlation between intake of pizza and potato(e) chips and serum cholesterol...

Ocean

Yep. I'm pissed at both Apple and the RNC for selling their products with slander. If having people pissed at you is the goal, then the tactic is working for both of them.

What exactly do you see as slander in the Apple campaign?

It's about MS wanting to coerce people to use Vista (through ads) instead of them wanting to use it --- because it works.

Yeah you're correct, so I'm going for the remainder of the bag of barbecue. I did lower my cholesterol by going nearly fat free, but not by much. The transcriptionists told me that I was starting to stutter and the techs though I was dying as I dropped a lot of weight. Since my bench dropped more than my cholesterol, I went back to my 'see food' diet. I don't really over eat and I work it off too, so hopefully the ASA will work.

After the new year, I'm planning to build a new tower. I'll get the wife to give me the CPU for XMAS. She just wants diamonds in return. My prom date was less expensive. She was my High school sweetheart. I gotta PM you a story.

Ocean

I'd list some of the lies but scooby would claim I was endorsing them. :-)

@Mike,

Anyone that gets "pissed" at these ads clearly aren't worth paying attention to by Apple.  Why?  Because such people, like yourself, must not only be satisfied with Windows, but have enough of an emotional investment in their PC that an ad campaign insulting it and Microsoft pisses them off.

This is the simple point.  If you love Windows and the PC system, you aren't going to buy a Mac.  Period.  And that's fine.

If you are a former Microsoft employee that spends hours a day defending the company in online forums moderated by Microsoft shills... well, you're DEFINITELY not in the target demo for a campaign about the mac.

If you are having trouble with your PC, though... you are the target of the ads.  People struggling with the various problems in the PC ecosystem from buggy drivers to horrible support run-arounds are going to be receptive to this campaign.  They certainly aren't going to be "pissed".

I think it's very likely that there are enough people genuinely dissatisfied with their PC experience to double Apple's market share.  Given :30 seconds and such a rich target, it would be foolish NOT to go after disaffected PC users.

But what the hell do I know?  I only work in network promotions.  You, on the other hand, appear to have an iron-clad marketing rulebook already in place.

...and again, Microsoft's dishonest chart that attempts to demonstrate the "apple tax" is worse than these ads.  Why? Because it's not a funny little brand-building vignette, it's a collection of lies shrouded in the trappings of objective facts... kinda like The Mojave Experiment.

You'd list some of them...if only they existed?

Mike

While I generally agree with your political analogy the difference is the use of the phrase false meme. The memes that Apple plays with, exaggerates and sometimes, let us say, bends a little are neither false nor of Apples making (the right-wing memes are not worth discussing).

When Vista came out some hardware would not work with it. With Windows the probability of a virus is higher. As for Vista being unusable I never saw that ad, which one were you were referring to. The perception that Apples are 'easier' than Windows is long-standing. XP and Vista are very stable but the 'blue screen' meme is another example of long standing that the ads use.

As for the Rovian 'panicked feel' I would say that this ad merely continues the 3-year old campaign.  The weight I attach to these ads is as much I did as to whether Coke was the real thing or was Pepsi the choice of a generation.

The market share for Apple has increased so the ad company will get their Christmas bonuses again this year.

Advertising not being completely truthful? I'm shocked I tell you! Shocked! They should put warnings at the bottom of the screen though in fairness, Viagra, it does work!!!.

I look forward to Windows Weekly, as always, and hope Paul takes his blood pressure medicine - I'm sure Leo has the paddles already charged just in case. We should run a book on what color Paul will turn.

If Paul doesn't stop sucking at the teat of Microsoft he may open his eyes one day and find it is not the teat he is sucking on but some other anatomical part .

>>If you are a former Microsoft employee that spends hours a day defending the company in online forums moderated by Microsoft shills... well, you're DEFINITELY not in the target demo for a campaign about the mac.<<

++10

>>If Paul doesn't stop sucking at the teat of Microsoft he may open his eyes one day and find it is not the teat he is sucking on but some other anatomical part .<<

This made my day...

:D

Uh Mike, I think you need to take a look at your DNC.  Acorn?  In every election how many dead people have voted in Chicago via the Daley machine?

What about the slander by the Democrats to raise taxes over and over and never do anything about controlling/cutting government spending?

How about here in Michigan, we have a single state recession. Nation's highest unemployment, nations lowest job growth. We have a Governor with a D next to her name. A State House with a D majority. What do they do? They ram thru the largest TAX INCREASE in the history of Michigan a year ago.  And lets not forget the tax increase they passed for small business. Gee, small business here in Michigan 12 months later is just going gang busters you can well imagine.  

What's happened since? Our unemployment went from 7% to almost 10%. Locally for me, unemployment is about 12%. SO PLEASE DON'T TALK FRICKING SLANDER to me.  Your liberal party slanders me everytime they vote for more taxes and more govt. spending.  Michigan lay in ruins and your party said again here in MI 2 months ago they need to raise taxes again to help feed the State budget. FRICK ME!  How about cutting spending, and cutting taxes? Odd that in the 1st 2 years of Gov. Granholm being office Michigan went from the nations leader in low unemployment and highest job growth to just the opposite.

I come here to read about technology, not to read snide comments people people that follow Pelosi's creed of socialism.

To all those saying that advertising is not truthful - you are dumber than I gave you credit for (not that I'm the ultimate authority...)

What Paul, and Mike, and I (sharing their opinion) are incensed about is the slander - using lies to slander a competitor.  Everyone knows that advertising is not often truthful, but being slanderous is crossing the line.

Delmont

Government size/spending increases under the GOP much more than under the Democrats.

Size of government under Clinton's last year (He shrank government size every year he was in office for a total of 16% smaller government when he left than what Bush Sr left him) was the same size (18.4% of the GDP) that it had been under Eisenhower and the lowest it had been since the Johnson Administration.

The largest government since World War II (23.5% of the GDP) was in 1983 under Reagan who never had a government smaller than 21.2% of GDP. (And, before you assume it, he didn't inherit it from Carter)

So, again, do your homework before you spout out fairytales you've been told and want to believe.

It's really just not worth it anymore. Sigh!

To summarise:

Apple lies.

They cheat too

Steve's surname is Soprano

Get-a-Mac ads features and benefits (listed above) never happened

Mac sales have not increased

Market share has not increased

Mac users are lemmings

Switchers are lemmings too

Oops forgot. There are no switchers

Vista is the most popular and beloved OS in history

There is no need for "The Mojave" experiment

Apple is a convicted monopolist.... with links to terrorism

Microsoft invented the Zune ;)

XBox 360s work

Paul is impartial

These ads have crossed the line.

Maybe the past ads could look funny to some people or even to most people (this has not been measured scientifically so it's pure irrelevant discorpse/speculation saying something about that) but these ones have really crossed the line. These are exagerated (they are too uncovered in their assumptions which are objectively untruen) even in the perspective of who's annoyed by pc world or Microsoft more in general.

Mikegalos is basically right. When people spend most of their time bashing others it means they have nothing to say about themselves.

Making fun is ok once, maybe twice. Then, if you don't change strategy, you may discover that the real world has left you behind your own laughs (alone).

There are two kinds of people: one who understand when enough is enough and one who doesn't. I'm afraid Apple (and its fanboys) belongs to the second. Seriously out of reality.

Ah

Another old trick. Mix a bunch of true and false statements together and people will assume (especially if you feign outrage that all of them belong together.

Here's a pass at telling the truth.

Apple DOES lie

Apple DOES cheat

Steve's surname is Jobs

The receng get a mac ads concentrate on lying about Microsoft

Mac sales HAVE increased

Mac market share of Laptops in the US has increased

Mac users are a mix of lemmings and not

People who switch to Mac are a mix of lemmings and not

People switch to Windows and people switch to Mac (but not many)

Vista has sold more than all Mac operating systems in history

The "Mojave Experiment" is needed due to years of Apple lies presented as fact by people who should know better

Apple is currently involved in monopoly violation charges but, as far as I know has no links to terrorism

Microsoft invented the Zune

XBox 360s do work

Paul has biases including quite a few in favor of Apple products.

Ibarskly

I have seen (at least twice) EVERY single windows woe those ads depict, in average Joe's PCs.

Those things do happen. For me, they don't count as lies... I can't vouch for the latest 2 ads though, since I don't really know Apple's marketing budget or MS reason for drop the vista name :-)

On a side note, and I think I said this before, Apple's ads have always (since '84) attacked windows PCs. Makes me wonder why now they are suddenly so important that everybody feels the need to "get incensed"...

And BTW, if you read carefully the blog post, its written in a very emotional way. I can't say if its due to "hate of Apple" as some others suggest or due to the Red Sox losing in game 7.

Since this post is obviously biased, I treated it as just another rant.

Oh, and Nickelgreen: there is also 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't. Give me a break.

I am starting to believe that Apple users are fueling this campaign.  I've never met a more self-righteous group.  

Although many of tech's luminaries preach the gospel of Apple even better than Steve.  You'd think all of these folks would push open non-proprietary systems.  I find it all quite puzzling.

Arosania

I have seen almost EVERY single computer woe those ads depict, in average Joe's Mac. And quite a few of them more often than on the average Joe's Windows Vista PC and quite a few others that don't show up in ads.

So, what was your point?

Techntools said:

>> I've never met a more self-righteous group.<<

Have you checked the regulars here?

Mike,

12% unemployment locally and 10% state wide average....no, that is not a fairy tale I think any person wants to live.

Funny I remember the GOP forcing a govt. shut down to get ol Billy to reign in spending and deal logically with the budget.

We all know ol Billy didn't have a war to fight and budget during his tenure either.  Oh that's right, he was too busy getting his you know what sucked instead of going after Bid Laden and those attacking us.  Hmm...how many times was the WTC attacked during Clinton's tenure? How many US Embassies were bombed during his tenure, I also believe the USS Cole was attacked during his tenure.  What was Bill's response to all this? Bomb a pill factory.

How many times have we been attacked since 9/11? I think the answer is: ZERO

I think it is quite easy to sit out there next door to Redmond with your multi-multi billion dollar Microsoft and all of her suppliers/vendors to keep pumping up your economy and job market. But maybe if you come back to the real world, the rest of the USA...you'll see we all don't have a Microsoft sitting next door to us to keep our economy's propped up.

What is your unemployment out there Mike by the way? I'm curious. 5%? 4%? 6%? Tell me, how many thousands of people are losing their jobs, homes and health care in your neighborhood in the past 12 months? Heck Mike even our hospitals are doing poorly here in MI due to the economy. That reminds me another little bill the Dems and the Gov pushed thru 3 years ago: more regulations on the health care industry. Yes yes by all means lets just regulate ourselves to death and keep on raising taxes. Yes, Yes, cause we all know we can tax ourselves in prosperity!

Delmont

Actually, the GOP (under Newt Gingrich) shut down the government when Clinton refused to sign their pork-laden budget.

The facts are the facts. The GOP in power means big government. The Democrats in power mean small government. The speeches from the GOP have lied about it so often that nobody bothers to look up the data.

Feel free to look it up. I'm pretty sure you won't believe it otherwise and I know that if you DO bother you'll see who has been lying to you.

Mike:

That everybody is suddenly making out a VERY big fuss about ads that have been EXACTLY that way since '84, so Apple lies but NOW its a big deal?

Mac OS is not the perfect thing Apple makes it to be, but fact over fact, Vista is not much better either.

For me is not much of a burden. I just make them work. Its what I do, but I'm not average Joe.

If I say Apple lies, I have to say Microsoft lies too.

Arosania

Back it up. Show us where Microsoft  ads lied about Macintosh or retract it.

Election season sucks.  Even this little site is becoming a forum for the pitter patter of partisan politics.  Jesus people.  If you're gonna talk about what's going on the world, at least touch on what REALLY matters... the federal reserve and the perils of a now failed Keynesian economic experiment.  Parroting campaign talking points is an exercise in shutting your brain off.  Wanna expand you mind?  Try picking up The Black Swan.  

Or perhaps more fitting for our current situation, "The Forgotten Man".  It's a great example of how FDR screwed our country, caused a stock market crash and recession to become a deep depression and somehow managed to come out smelling like a rose in the history books.  Seriously, that authoritarian socialist anti-semite really damaged our union.  Just google Schechter Poultry Corp. v. United States.

Price and wage fixing nearly ended America, people.  Anyone talking about propping up prices, be it McCain with this mortgage bailout plan or Obama with his Farm Bill fascism, hasn't learned a damn thing from the depression.  Keynes was wrong.  We're paying the price now.

We need less partisan hackery and more study in economics.

There.  I've said my piece.

I think both party's have flaws, and are driven by greed and the hunger for power. Oh well, back to my burgers. It''s 53 out and I'm using the grill. Heck, it could be snowing and I'll grill.

Chow, baby!

You appleanians simply cry out louder. This doesn't make what you're saying true. And, in fact, it isn't. You lost the link with reality, and the appreciation for these objectively untrue an libelous ads, demonstrates.

These are getting simply boring and dangerous (for yourselves).

I'm tired of posting links who demonstrates you, little Alices, live in wonderland, it's like beating about the bush. Go on behave childishly like this. But when you'll decide to get back on earth from the Nexus, just let us know...

John

The 28 year experiment in Reaganomics and self-regulation of industry and commerce has paid off in spades. The GINI is now looking like we're a banana republic, infrastructure has collapsed, safety of the food supply is critically bad and corporate theft has crippled both the financial and manufacturing sectors of the economy possibly beyond repair. But, the top 1/2 of 1% is living better than they ever did with socialization of risk and deregulation of profit.

Tell you what, let's agree to go back to 1956 and the Eisenhower Republican model that gave a huge middle class, a vastly stronger and more resiliant economy and seems to be the "ideal" for even the most conservative.

Of course, that means a minimum wage of 20% of the median household income, executive pay at only single digit multipliers over average workers, a 90% tax bracket for the richest of the rich and 80% of workers unionized.

Do that, and we go back to an achievable American Dream. Keep optimizing the economy to minimize risks for the top 1/2 of 1% and we'll end up looking like Nicaragua under the Somoza family.

Mike:

I never said Microsoft lie about the Macintosh. I said Microsoft lies about Vista being the (next) great big thing. One example? "Improved" networking experience.

I'm out for the day (wife's birthday)...

See ya.

Vista has a new and vastly improved networking stack. That's factual.

Thanks for playing.

@mikegalos.

Honestly. No trickery intended. I am just fed up with all the rhetoric and vitriol I read on these pages (and others). As someone who occasionally steps in with a fact or two that people may have missed, I try to be fair but it's difficult when everyone is simply branded with the Cabal stick or worse a liar. My list was an honest yet sarcastic summary of some of the views on this forum.

I can sympathise with Microsoft. I really can. Vista wasn't right straight out of the box. They get a ton of bad press. The fixes took too long. They get more bad press. Apple's ads take their pound of flesh. The Vista brand is irreversibly tarnished.

So as I said, it's so much simpler to just give up..... and blame everything on Apple.

More than ever, I'm a PC - and I *don't* sell fish! ;-)

Mary

Vista had less fixes than OS X. So, why aren't you suggesting that you're just taking the simple route and giving up by blaming everything on Microsoft.

I prefer working from facts. Even when that isn't easy.

aemarques

I'm a PC and I used to save fish

(I was a Washington state commissioner involved in salmon recovery work)

@Mike, I thought I would never say this, but your replies to Delmont, shutting him down with GDP FACTS, are pure genius.

Delmont you and other republicans that tout Aires and Acorn are truly sad.  NO ONE except for the right wing, neo con, OMG a Black man might become president and we cant have that friends of your, really care.  NO ONE.  They see right through the desperate attempts by you are your buddies to link Obama to stuff that is not connected and not important at all.

Why Obama or someone close to him does not bring up the Keating 5 every single day, 5 times a day blows me away.  I mean get every single news outlet minus Fox to bring it up every day, 5 times a day and on every stump speech until the election.  You know our last BIG financial screw up in this country, you know like our current one, and McCain was neck deep in it?  Why they wont make this link with McCain blows me away.  It would be so easy, and McCain could not say he was 8 years old when it went down.

Oh, here we go. The supporters of the "Evil Empire", convicted monopolists, crying wolf.

"average price [of a Mac was already] more than twice as high as computers based on Microsoft’s Windows operating system."

Based on Windows OS is a cheaper, nastier option. You get what you pay for. You pay for a cheap laptop with Windows on it, you get a cheat laptop with a cheap and nasty OS. I find it amusing how Windows guys will cling to anything. What, Apple should stop making stylish laptops because of the current economic climate? Are BMW, Rolls Royce, Rolex and other going to stop making stylish, gorgeous things and start making cheap products because of the economic climate? Get real.

Face facts, the ads are accurate. Especially the "V Word". Vista is a tarnished brand which will be dropped with Windows' next release. Vista is a toxic name out there. People associate it with an inferior product (which is correct, mind you).

The beauty of the Get A Mac ads is that Microsoft can't retort with something similar. Why? Because they have the inferior product.

Calling Apple "schoolyard bullies" is a joke. The biggest bully in the school yard is now crying? Again, don't forget that Microsoft is a convicted monopolist. Convicted bully.

Um...alright then!

I like Palin's "ideals".

I especially like when they jiggle up and down!

....oh, and cake.  I like cake, too.

(....and I like cake on Sarah Palin.  MRRAWR!)   :)P

robertsjoe

Give it up. You can call a Pinto a Rolls Royce but that doesn't make it one even if they charge the same price.

Apple's product line right now is like Cadillac in the 1980s. They added extra chrome and velour seats to a Chevy, charged 80% more and lived off their fans thinking they were getting something better because "It's a Cadillac" while Toyota ate their lunch.

.

(In Cadillac's defense, they did a magnificent turn around in the last decade and now are a serious force in the luxury market with good reason)

Lindy

The real item that doesn't get much press is that John McCain was the keynote speaker at an ACORN event in Miami in 2006 supporting Senator Kennedy's immigration plan.

@mikegalos: Give what up? Come on, give up the usual line about the price of Apple laptops. If people are too cheap to buy them, then fine. I just with they'd shut up about it. It's really just people towing Microsoft's line about the "Apple tax". It's so lame and pathetic when Microsoft executives throw it around. But it doesn't mean Microsoft product users have to lower themselves to their level.

robertsjoe

Expensive =/= better

You get what you pay for isn't always true. Often you get less.

Whatever to you libs.

Democrats are chuck full of morals.  Name me one election they don't try their hardest to out right steal.

Is McCain my first choice for the Oval Office? NO.

Keating 5: out of 5 Senators, only one GOP. And McCain cleared of impropriety but criticized for poor judgment.

ACORN is a notorious organization pure and simple. What's next you all going to defend Moveon.org?

Anyways, you libs have your fun. Cause it looks like for $600million-$700mil you're buying yourselves into the White House.

Oh and for big govt. Hmm...I think of FDR, LBJ and Carter and Dukakias.

I'm done with this thread. You left coast, San Fransisco Pelosi groupies have your fun and just vote in more socialism into America and before you know it, we're just like Canada and Sweeden.

And I'm so glad people are replying specifically to my specific comments...naw libs can't do that they just detract and throw bombs from the weeds.

But hey, you libs will have the next four years to show us how we can tax and spend our way into prosperity. Nancy and Harry are waiting. Oh wait, in the 2 years Nancy and Harry have been in charge, what major legislation have they actually created/sponsered/passed?

The Democrats are criticizing George Bush, John McCain and the Republican party for this mess but they are doing nothing to fix it. They talk about failed policies but the only thing the Democrats have offered came from Democratic Senator Harry Reid who said; “no one knows what to do.”

One last thing, why is it that the enemies of America hate President Bush, don't want McCain to be President yet favor Obama?

@Mike,

Sorry.  No mention of monetary policy during a rant about the cause-and-effect of government action on economic conditions = FAIL.  Bush isn't a conservative, though.  Bill Clinton was more of a conservative on economics than Bush.  That's why Greenspan called Clinton one of the "best Republican presidents we've had in a while".

I just love hearing someone who's defending one of the biggest beneficiaries of a low-regulation marketplace bashing those of us that are skeptical of the efficacy of government action.  Give me a break.  Regulatory capture is real.  Government action demonstrably does more harm then good.  This crisis may very well have never happened if the Fed hadn't used their open market operations to keep interest rates below their natural market level given the demand for lending.

But hey, let's give wage and price fixing another go, right?  Destroying crops during a food shortage worked out so well in the 1930s.  Better yet, let's just turn them into a fuel that nobody can buy!  That's the ticket!  Tax payer funded!  $5 cheerios so that a certain candidate can win Iowa.  Wonderful.  

Oh, those great bastions of the progressive era, Social Security and Medicare sure do look sustainable, don't they?  Neither McCain nor Obama is on track or talking about the real problems we face.  Anyone who is honest or informed must admit that. So can we please just drop the political partisan BS and get back to the tech partisan BS.

Oh... and Vista may have an improved networking stack... but I'd love to know why it's ability COPY FILES is apparently so poor that Paul himself recommends third party utilities.  In the era of digital media, dog-slow file copying is a mortal sin.

@mikegalos: I agree with you there. But always just throwing up the "oh but they are more expensive".. that's nothing. There's no real comparison other than price. All I'm saying is that that is not what it should be based on.

"One last thing, why is it that the enemies of America hate President Bush, don't want McCain to be President yet favor Obama?"

Because the only one declaring loyal Americans as "enemies of America" for disagreeing with them are the GOP.

(See Palin's "Pro-America" pockets, Michele Bachmann's "Anti-America" Congressmen and Senators or Nancy Pfotenhauer's Virginia and "Real Virginia" comments - or just watch Keith Olbermann's "Special Comment" tonight)

robertsjoe

You were the one saying "you get what you pay for" and describing Windows PCs as "cheap and nasty" so you're the one making those comments.

John,

If you say something is "demonstrably true" the demonstrate it.

I gave neutral sourced numbers. Feel free to do the same.

Oh, and "Bush isn't a Conservative" is what Conservatives say in 2008 even though they supported him in 2000 and 2004.

Finding a conservative who admits they backed Bush is about as hard right now as finding a Republican in 1974 who admitted supporting Nixon two years earlier.

"change the title to Whinesupersite"

I agree. This blog seems to attract lot of iWhiners. Waaaaaaaaaah. Mommy, Paul's criticizing Apple again.

@mike

Turning comments round doesn't always work Mike!

"Vista had less fixes than OS X. So, why aren't you suggesting that you're just taking the simple route and giving up by blaming everything on Microsoft."

Because if there is anything wrong with the Mac OS or the way Apple executes it's business then I blame ..... Apple.

Delmont, give it up. This is not an argument that you will win. Not because you're wrong, but because you're outnumbered. The only issue that evokes stronger reactions than Apple v. Microsoft these days is Blue v. Red. Thankfully, it'll all be over in 30 days and a year from now, we can go back to mocking our leaders and talking about what a poor choice it was to pick an inexperienced person.

I backed Bush and still back Bush.

Keith Olbermann? Might as well watch Michael Moore and throw up my dinner.

Did I mention I run Vista Enterprise on a 3.5year old Dell Dimension and it runs GREAT?

Now I have to get back to ordering a part for my Jag XJ8

MaryW

Really? I don't recall you blaming Apple for much of anything...

@shark47: you're right. Change the title of this blog. The last thing it covers are things Microsoft. It's an anti-Apple blog by a Microsoft fanboy. Essentially it's a paid Microsoft advertisement.

I've said this before and I'll repeat it now. Apple is the Kevin Trudeau of tech advertising. Karl Rove could learn a lesson or two from them. They get a free pass because the press treats them like the little kid that's taking on the school bully that is Microsoft. It's the same reason Kevin Trudeau's books sell - because he takes on the FDA and the drug industry. The media does do fact checks when it comes to Trudeau, because he's not cool enough.

Hey!

Next I'll learn a bunch of you people are not Ted Nugent fans.

Delmont

I'll give you credit for not rewriting history on supporting Bush.

I'll equally state that while I oppose Bush and his people in 2008 when it is popular, I opposed them in 2000, 2004 and also in mid-September 2001 when it was considered dangerous and close to treasonous to say anything negative about them.

Of course, by the current meme, that still makes me un-American.

robertsjoe

Really. I guess all that Windows Mobile bashing was secretly anti-Apple and all the criticism of Hotmail compared to GMail was Microsoft fanboyism and Paul's preference for the much unloved AppleTV is just his way of picking on Apple just like his criticism of Windows Media Center is a subtle way of saying it's good.

Delmont

Ted who?

Mike. Really, what is the matter with you? You just wont let this go!

"I don't recall you blaming Apple for much of anything... "

Guess what? Nobody ever asked me!

There's plenty times that Apple screw up. I don't go hunting around for some other scapegoat or international press conspiracy. I don't inflate their successes neither do I deny the successes of their competitors.

MaryW

Go back and read your old posts...

I'll stick with my assessment. Feel free to prove me wrong. If so, I'll retract.

Damn Paul, you can stir up the natives! No but really, yes Apple ads do step over the boundaries, and propably should be held accountable.

What I cant fathom, as mentioned above, Why Trade blogs use so much of this drivil as fact? Do they realize how stupid they look? I confronted Adrian on this in that topic about these ads, got nothing but a "Thanks for taking the time ...

... to make that enlightening comment"  This guy is an idiot.

But realistically I am just the average very enthused user of Pc tech. Never touched a puter until 5 years ago. Could have went Apple. Truly liked the "build" of some of their products. Then the forum searches, on their own boards mind you, and the arrogance and disdain of just the core users. My God what a bunch of primadonnas. Then start looking through Apples own discusion threads. Put downs, jeers and antagonistic for a users problems. Then there are the threads that just disappear. Nope will not buy Apple.

Personally I see a mirrored image of Apple today and Apple of the 80's, just right before Jobs was released from his managerial duties.  Slowing in the innovations. Rehash of the same tired products. 1 or 2 legit hits that start getting long in the tooth. And then there is the general if your not with us youre against us bravada that comes out of the core of the business.

Really most users dont care about all this. Just give me a PC that I can use. PC do this. Apple doesnt, just too much baggage.

Needless to say

Gee mike you ask for some MS lies here are just a few.

How about MS allowing all those vista capable stickers to be plastered on computer that could only run a stripped down neutered version of Windows?

Personally, I'd call that a Lie.

How about the lie they built into early versions of windows which put an incompatibility error when it would actually run fine, thus encouraging a user to spend money on MS DOS?  

Personally, I'd call that a Lie.

Gee how about the various lies that MS told about linux over the years?

Here's just one for example:

news.zdnet.co.uk/.../0,1000000121,2101042,00.htm

How about the big lie, telling potential customers that Vista was really the next version of Windows, is that not a lie?  I mean really isn't the whole mojave experiment just one big lie?

How about in 2002 when microsoft tried to duplicate Apple Switcher ads and used quotes from people in marketing and tried to pass it off as real users?

Personally, I'd call that a lie.

The reality is that Vista was released too soon, the reality is that after TWO years it is a lot like a lot of MS products that is pretty good and pretty reliable.  But the reality is that unlike in previous versions windows people now had a legitimate choice, as a result customers who had a nightmare experience with Vista, could look to their mac buddies and see them happily using the computer.

Further, most and I would argue, the vast majority of mac users are extremely happy with their macs.  Thus, as Softies struggled with Vista, Mac users were Happy.  

As for your comment about how the network stack in Vista is superior than in XP, this may be true, but I've also read that many people had networking issues, so while the underlying technology might be better, the implementation was not so good.  Further, the major problem with file copying in which, the length of time was onerous, while not technically a "networking issue" most non technical users would consider it a failure.

What both you and Paul have failed to realize is that people are expecting a better end to end user experience.  Simply put the Mac provides that, and further, no one (ie 95%) cares about replacing a video card. So you can complain about how you have to pay 2K to get a mac that has a card slot, but most people will never put a new card into their computer.  You may complain that mac have problems, but the reality is overall satisfaction of Mac users is higher?  You may complain that Mac hardware is inferior, but the overall ratings of consumer report says that Mac hardware is more reliable.  You may complain that EVERY version of windows has run slower on the same hardware as the version before, but the rules have changed.  

Simply put consumers expect more, and MS flat out failed to deliver with Vista in January of 2006 and no amount of complaining will fix this broken brand.

Regards

Joe Dokes

Poor Paul.  It's like Apple designed these ads in a way to get under Paul's skin (of course they didn't - because they don't give a rat's you know what about Paul or the other winzealot haters that take offense at apple - oh my gosh - asserting they make a better product in their marketing.

I know, isn't it shocking?  Company A says it's product is better/cheaper/will get you laid more that Company B's product.  Just terrible I tell you!!!

The ads raise a completely valid question - why is MS advertising about nonsense (Seinfeld) or fuzzy/scary conformity ("everyone" uses windows) instead of putting that money into fixing the many less than desirable aspects of its products.

Answer me this, Paul (or other winzealot) - why not put the $300 million into getting rid of the registry?  Or making vista less of a resource pig?

Seriously , what point do the MS ads have?  At least Apple and its ads -- regardless of how literally true they are -- have the positive, consumer-friendly effect of increasing competition and pressure on MS.

Also, I note Paul takes no issue with the truth of new apple ad number 2 (the one where apple points out that the name vista is not being used.  100 percent true.

Paul, you've obviously struck a nerve here. People get irritated whenever you say something against Apple. No amount of explaining will change that. Apple can do no wrong. Even if they do, there's always a justification that they're not "convicted monopolists". These are the same jokers who toe the company line that don't realize that just because MS spent $300 mn on advertising, doesn't mean they're not working on improving software. So, after years of referring to them as "M$" and accusing them of making too much money, they're actually implying the opposite now?  Anyway, I don't know how many of these jokers asked you for the book. Maybe you should send one to them just to shut them up. You might want to ship it to the Apple store closest to their homes. They've probably set that as their Home location in their GPS.

"Anyways, you libs have your fun. Cause it looks like for $600million-$700mil you're buying yourselves into the White House.

Oh and for big govt. Hmm...I think of FDR, LBJ and Carter and Dukakias.

I'm done with this thread. You left coast, San Fransisco Pelosi groupies have your fun and just vote in more socialism into America and before you know it, we're just like Canada and Sweeden."

Um actually what the Dem's are trying to create is a mixture of communism and capitalism, which are really close systems.

Socialism is extremely different because it doesn't call for government action.

Oh yes, to you Apple fanatics, I know some of you are not I applaud you, know why paul does this kind of thing,

17 comments on the Xbox 360 HDD

over 180 comments on ad's released by Apple and how Paul hates them.

Seriously if this was about Windows we have what 10 posters, and 10 comments per article, but one anti-apple ad and we get over 100 comments easily.

Cnet and other tech sites have it wrong, want to generate traffic, don't bash Microsoft, bash Apple.

Crash Pad,

I don't know what boards you were reading two years ago, but it sure wasn't the same ones I've read.  If you believe people like Waethorn, Mike, and Cejar, you'd think that all Mac people goose stepped around like a bunch of drones.

In my experience, I've seen just as many Windows Morons like Waethorn, who claim that every mac he's ever seen instantly kernel panics at the mere approach of a Windows enthusiast like himself.  

I can't count the number of times, I've pulled out either my old ibook or Macbook Pro and faced open hostility from a Windows user who asked why the f am I using a "Toy?"  Yet, I keep hearing how it's the Mac Users that are arrogant.  

I can't count the number of times, I've been told that a Mac is three times as expensive, when the reality is a 10-20% premium.  I remember buying my iMac G5 at the same time a friend bought a Dell desktop, guess what, he paid a hundred dollars less than I did, and no he didn't get "twice the machine."  As a matter of fact my wife still uses the G5 EVERY DAY while my friend just bought a new Dell, I'll probably get another year out of my mac. Explain to me again how he got the superior deal.

I can't count the number of times, I've heard out and out lies about the Mac.  The lie typically starts with you can't do _______ on a Mac.  I then open the application and show how I can do exactly that.  They look in disbelief and say, "Well, I always heard..."

So go over to Apple insider or macrumors and check out the boards, you will find a lively discussion on virtually every topic, and guess what, there are frequent and disagreements, dare I say even disagreements about what what apple is doing.

Far from the goose stepping that Waethorn and Mike would have you believe.

Regards

Joe Dokes

Delmont,

Don't agree with you on politics :), but you're right on the irrelevance of politics to this discussion.

I mentioned Governor Palin only to make the point that Tina Fey isn't "libeling" Palin by doing humorous skits, and that Paul's contention that the Apple ads are "libelous" is laugh-out-loud funny. FWIW, I've also heard some pretty good Obama jokes.

It's off topic, but BOTH our presidential candidates were funny and at their civil best at the Alfred E. Smith memorial dinner. I liked both, but in this case, McCain was clearly better. Worth watching.

www.youtube.com/watch

www.youtube.com/watch

McCain spoke first, so watch that one first. I recommend everyone go watch both videos and note the civility and good humor displayed by both gentlemen. Then come back and do the same here.

On the topic at hand, Microsoft has been duped into playing Apple's game. It has nothing to do with technical details, but they've been outmaneuvered, and that's clear to everyone:

www.businessweek.com/.../has_apple_succe.html

"Has Apple Successfully Lured Microsoft Into an Ad War?"

"One has to wonder whether Microsoft has played into Apple’s hands on this one"

Personally, I think Paul's rage and anger stem from the Red Sox exclusion from the World Series.  Sorry buddy, maybe next year.  However, I do enjoy when he posts his opinion related to everything Apple just to watch the silly onslaught that ensues - it's pretty entertaining.

As for the new Apple ads...I don't really get what the big deal is.  I thought they got old, dull, and irrelevant a long time ago.  I've accepted the fact that I'll have to suffer through a new I'm a PC/I'm a Mac commercial following any significant Microsoft announcement/update/product release/strategic move.

Joe

Fascinating. I asked where Microsoft's ads lied about Macintosh and you gave us absolutely no examples but went on a long diatribe about every random anti-Microsoft rumor you'd heard and chose to believe.

The most amusing example to me was where you said: "How about the lie they built into early versions of windows which put an incompatibility error when it would actually run fine, thus encouraging a user to spend money on MS DOS?"

You're right. That IS a lie. It was a lie told about Microsoft.

What actually happened (and I was in Microsoft doing work with the Windows group at the time) was that Microsoft did a limited technical beta of an unreleased version of Windows (I think it was 3.1 but I'm not 100% sure). The limited release went to a few dozen companies. In the sign up it clearly said that it was ONLY to be tested on a limited number of versions of MS-DOS and no clones because they wanted to find bugs in the new version of Windows first without having to work out whether the bugs were in Windows or old MS-DOS versions or in DOS clones having compatibility problems and a later test pass would be done for compatibility testing with once the basic Windows bugs were isolated and fixed. It also said that to make sure that bugs filed in that test were only on those specific versions of MS-DOS, it would check versions.

That's it.

A pretty reasonable testing methodology that got lied about to the industry press by Microsoft's competitors and repeated by press people who decided it was too juicy a story to actually check out.

And almost 20 years later you still believed that lie and repeated it.

Oh, and you do know that Apple has a routine in OS X that causes a kernel panic (Apple's BSOD) if it detects that it's running on non-Apple hardware...

DRWAM was the closest to the truth of anybody today...I would say it more like this.

The Apple ads are working. They got all of you MS supporters up in arms.

The Microsoft ads are working. They got all of you Apple supporters up in arms.

Paul's blog is working...he was able to generate around 200 comments in near record time for his site and huge numbers of hits, translating to huge dollars for Penton and their advertisers.

All of the above are laughing at all of us...as they say, all the way to the bank.

Regardless of the outcome, I will be gld when this election is over. The bitter partisanship has turned a once great country to something that I am not proud of.

--tayme

@mikegalos

"Go back and read your old posts... Feel free to prove me wrong"

I will do no such bloody thing. You display your arrogance by even asking me! I don't have to confirm something in writing (especially on this Blog!) for it to be true.

"I'll stick with my assessment."

Of course you will. You always do.

@MaryW - Mike cannot say that he is wrong. It is pathetic...It still reminds me of Fonzie trying to say he was sorry on those old Happy Days shows!!!

--tayme

Mike:

Don't try to soft-talk me on the "networking stack", or your so-called "facts".

Also, I'm not "playing". Not your silly game, anyway.

It wouldn't matter if I told you about the issues I had or how I resolved them, because you would be too busy sugar-coating my words and making up your "infinite wisdom" remarks.

Thanks for nothing.

;-)

Oh, and a little more detail on the "Windows Lie" from the early 1990s...

First, many of the reputable industry press DID issue retractions of the story and had run it in their gossip columns (Spencer the Katt in PC-Week and Cringely in Infoworld) and not as news stories. The guy who was editor-in-chief of PC-Week at the time is an old friend and I don't want him annoyed at me for not being thorough.

Secondly, notice how the story has changed over the years. It started as a rumor mill story that a limited beta version of Windows wouldn't install on cloned copies of MS-DOS and evolved into the bizarre story that Microsoft shipped a retail version of Windows that would intentionally run unreliably on clones of MS-DOS so that people would be forced to buy MS-DOS. (Which, if you think of it, would have been idiotic since people would have assumed it was Windows that was buggy). Notice how the accusation of malice got worse over the years even after the truth came out.

Gee tayme, you're so right, I offered to retract my statement if it's shown to be in error. That's pretty unreasonable.

@Tayme,

If it makes you feel any better, the race between Adams and Jefferson was more overtly libelous and vicious than anything being said today.  America is still worthy of our pride even with it's warts.  Now Jersey on the other hand... ;)

@Mike,

Farm subsidies (and industrial subsidies in general) are demonstrably negative for the very industries they are intended to help.  Farm subs in particular are evil.  They artificially raise prices which acts as a tax on the poor and working class.  They inhibit the markets in developing nations whose governments don't subsidize.  They've had no demonstrable positive impact on the sustainability of either small farms or the towns that used to be built on them.  Because of regulatory capture, the subsidies are not only abused but generally end up in the pockets of weather corporate farmers who don't "need the help" and can afford the legal teams necessary to understand our pathetic, corrupt congress' biblically-long legislation.

Oh, and they aren't necessary.  The majority of our foods and produce aren't subsidized, yet we have plenty of broccoli and apples to go around.  New Zealand abandoned them to no ill effect.  None.

www.cato.org/pub_display.php

The Farm bill was $300 Billion in unnecessary deficit spending doing absolutely nothing good.  Nothing.  But it has contributed to massive food inflation which has hurt every working American.  Check the voting record on that one.  Check the path of the primaries.  I'm no huge fan of McCain, but he was on the right side of this crucial issue, and skipped Iowa as a result.  Obama was on the wrong side, and enjoyed the fruits of that corrupt vote with his crucial win in corn country.

Now if you want to discount the importance of food supply policy... well, just show me a human that can live without it and I'll concede the point.

john

I actually know something about the Farm Bill and the subsidies (I used to own a farm)

There are two factors you aren't considering.

1) Most of the farm subsidy money goes to the agriculture mega-corps such as Archer Daniels Midland and very little goes to actual farmers.

2) The last big farm bill had a huge jump in its funding despite having no increase in actual program budgets. Suspicion is that certain black project budgets were hidden in a few key projects that were awarded to friendly corporations on the condition that they'd channel the money to "consulting firms" in Langley, VA and a few other beltway towns. I certainly can't confirm it but I did see the huge budget increase without an actual increase in awards and it was either massive black funds laundering or massive bribery.

@jp - You are right...but, it is much more widespread now...it has moved from the candidates using libel and slander to win hte election, to everyday people basing their lives and opinions on it. But, whatever...like I said, I'll be glad when this election is over.

Regarding farm subsidies, I couldn't agree more. I live in corn country, and I see it daily. Trying to play with supply and demand is not good for anybody. It is like OPEC cutting oil production...because the prices are too "low" for them.

--tayme

Mike:

Former Microsoft Employee, Marketing expert, Political analyst, Used to own a farm...

Is there anything you have not done? (And I ask that with a great deal of respect, meaning I'm seriously asking)...

@mikegalos - IT sounds to me like you are a jack of all trades...I have to wonder if you are a master of any?!?

;-p

--tayme

@arosania - Please....don't feed him...his arrogance is large enough.

--tayme

arosania

There's LOTS I haven't done. Yet.

tayme:

right, right...

:-D

tayme

Master of some. Jack of others. Silent but learning the rest.

Seems the best way to be.

@Mike,

And so we agree, it would seem.  I do recognize how little goes to small farms as well as how much bizarre corrupt pork is embedded in every bill.  When laws are 500 pages, nobody reads them.  When the rule books they create are equally long, nobody but moneyed lawyers can decipher them.

It's inherent in the nature of government to incrementally consume and expand with no check or balance.  Look at the mission creep in the government agencies, the FCC being just one of many.  That agency is nothing more than a tool used by big corporations to try and gain advantage over their competitors for monopoly maintenance.  Hence the ever-rising cost of our cable bills despite the ever shrinking cost of telecom gear.

Government subsidy and regulation are demonstrably a negative in most areas.  I'm not an anarchist and markets need rules to function and prevent gaming and collusion, but government subsidies and central planning or price/wage controls are an absolute failure worldwide.

Anyone excited about a larger role for government overall is living in a fantasy land (or a university).  No mechanism on earth has been demonstrated to more effectively distribute finite resources or discover prices and drive those prices down than free markets.  

Next up, the role of government in the disfunction of the airline and american auto industries!  Stay tuned!

@Mike,

You NEED to read The Black Swan.  Seriously.  You should go buy that book or audible right now.

Let's see Mike,

Vista Capable, this was a marketing tool, you may not consider the sticker to be an ad but I do, why because the sticker helped sell millions of boxes during the holiday season in 2006.  Now you may say it's not a lie, but I think its is quite clear that MS misled customers.

How about this specific lie MS told about linux.  In their ironically named "Get the Facts" ad campaign, so factually wrong that the ads had to be pulled in the UK.  

www.linux.com/.../45925

As for the Dr-Dos issue it was a little more than a testing methodology.  There were high level discussion at MS that even involved Gates in which MS was trying to use incompatibilities, now you are correct that these messages were never used in a final product, but that still doesn't change the fact that MS, had serious discussions about using lies to further its sales.

Further, I like how you get the little dig about Apple software and kernel panics as though MS would or does tolerate people using their software in ways not supported by the end user agreement.

Regards

Joe Dokes

John

Where we disagree is on the role of government. I've seen government do wonderful things. Things that were in the best interests of the nation but that didn't offer enough profit for "the private sector" to do it. Things that put the needs of the country above the needs of profit margins and shareholder ROI. Things that require patriotism rather than greed.These have been lacking over the last 28 years and hopefully we'll see a return to them. Those who govern with the philosophy of "government is the problem" tend to make that self-fulfilling and we need them out of the sacred duty that they hold in obvious contempt.

We DO agree on the changes in House procedure that allow for bills to be submitted in the middle of the night and passed without reading that morning or that moved the majority of bills in the Senate to be voted on under the "emergency legislation" provision that allows voting without time for debate or review. And I condemn both Tom DeLay and the rest of his crew for changing the procedures to block discussion and force partisan votes. Hopefully both parties will agree to undo that damage.

joe

Nope. You're repeating gossip stories again. I was there for the Windows doesn't run on clone DOS era. You weren't.

Again, you were asked about Microsoft ads that were lying about Macintosh and again you repeat rumors and gossip even after being told what really happened by someone there.

btw: For those who both like "I'm a PC" actor John Hodgeman and openly liberal TV analyst Rachel Maddow, Hodgeman was on her show tonight.

His post-show comment, "Rachel Maddow is too smart. She is like an unstoppable smart machine."

Personally, I have respect for both of them but wish Hodgeman would find respectable work. :-)

Government is an institution of flawed human being acting on unique self interest, just like every other human institution be it a corporation or a church or a union.

At issue is the mechanisms that provide a check and balance on the institution's action and whether those mechanisms lead to optimization of their resources vs calcification and entropy and waste.

I believe that government (and particularly federal government) agencies lack the basic accountability that only competition can bring.  I believe that the government "investment" inevitably becomes a distortion because the incentives are not in place continually check the performance of said investment.  The only mechanism that's been demonstrated to succeed at that and survive changes in leadership is the free market.

If our government agencies were a business, nearly all would have failed and gone under a long time ago.  But because government enforces its monopoly with guns, it stands alone.

The problem is that government action is performed by faceless agencies that are created and then rarely get held to account.  In theory our vote is the check and balance, but it's an inadequate one in the face of immense and complex bureaucracy.  Just try to show my how my vote can change the course of FCC policy against a tide of corporate lobbyists.  Not gonna happen.  It'd be better for the FCC to have it's powers stripped and have Verizon and Comcast compete for our dollars on price and service.

Do some people benefit from government action?  Of course!  Have you doubtlessly seen this benefit?  I'm sure.  Are these anecdotes "proof" that "government works"?  Nope.  There are too many examples of mal-investment and misallocation for me to be swayed by anecdote of some project that "never would have happened in a for-profit enterprise".

Let's imagine a grants system for alternative energy.  You've got 15 billion a year to dole out in government money.  Who's gonna get it?  In what amounts?  How will you determine it?  What saintly person will be put in charge of this process?

We've seen this play out before.  Ethanol.  Of all the alternative energy options to put resources behind, corn-based Ethanol is the WORST.  Yet that's exactly what congress and the president did.  Why?  Because of the perverse incentives of government.  The result?  Horrible unintended consequences and certainly massive opportunity costs.

Nature has given us the blueprint.  It's called evolution.  It's messy.  It's inefficient.  It's unpredictable.  But it's the best mechanism for the creation of strong, resilient systems.  REAL economics is bottom-up, NOT top-down.  Government action is ALWAYS top-down.

btw... sorry for continuing the thread hijack.  I can't help but find economics more interesting at this point than nonsensical hemming and hawing over corporate advertising.  Call me crazy.

Lastly... mine is not a belief in "free markets" in the abstract.  It's a belief in people.  I believe that people find solutions to their own problems. Economics is a social science and bears no relationship to physics despite many economists desires for it to be so.  People act on an individual basis with a complex set of incentives.  The idea that a central authority could craft any policy to effectively regulate and adapt to these incentives in the absence of competitive pressure and the possibility of failure keeping them honest is ludicrous to me.

Mike,

You don't think that the "Vista Capable" was part of Microsoft's marketing?

You don't think that the "Get the facts" campaign was part of Microsoft's marketing?

So do you think that the story I linked to in which MS had to PULL its "Get the Facts" ads in the UK, was fiction?

You sir, have been drinking way too much f-ing MS koolaid.  

Regards

Joe

Joe

The question was whether Microsoft's ads have lied about Apple.

None of those are Microsoft ads about Apple.

You've been trying to change the subject for multiple messages. Do you really think my attention span is so low that I'll forget what we were talking about?

Again, the claim was that Microsoft's ads lie about Apple, too. I disputed that claim and asked for examples of Microsoft ads lying about Apple. I'm still waiting for either an example of a Microsoft ad lying about Apple or a retraction.

I suspect, as usual when I ask Apple fans to back up their anti-Microsoft claims, I'll get neither.

Mike,

Oh yea, that little thing about DR-Dos, I did a little follow up reading.

This from the LA Times,

Gates asked in an ensuing e-mail if there wasn’t a way to make an application “run with MS-DOS and not run DR-DOS.” A Microsoft executive responded that there wasn’t.

Nevertheless, according to another e-mail, Gates ordered Microsoft’s programmers to make it appear as if the company’s software was incompatible with DR-DOS by displaying an error message whenever a user had a machine with DR-DOS running on it.

Jeremy Butler, then head of Microsoft’s international sales, noted in 1989 that “it only takes a couple of reports about non-compatibility to give the kiss of death to a PC.”

The warning sign was used in a variety of Microsoft programs, but the most famous case was when Microsoft embedded the warning in a beta, or preview copy, of Windows 3.1.

“Heh, heh, heh … my proposal is to have bambi [a part of Windows 3.1] refuse to run on this alien OS. Comments?” said Phil Barrett, a Microsoft executive, in an e-mail.

Microsoft points out that the warning was removed in the final product and argues it is therefore a moot point.

But Caldera’s document points out the extremes Microsoft went to to undercut public confidence in DR-DOS. Not only did it send out 15,000 beta copies embedded with the false warnings to analysts, reporters and other opinion leaders in the technology world, but it also set out to deliberately mislead reporters about the problems.

Microsoft executive Brad Chase is quoted in an e-mail commenting on the error message: “I think it’s totally rude, reinforces the image that users have of us as the evil ones, etc.”

But the campaign went on. Brad Silverberg, a senior Microsoft executive, is quoted in a 1991 e-mail as saying: “We are engaged in a FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) campaign to let the press know about some of the bugs. We’ll provide info a few bugs at a time to stretch it out.”

Yes, Mike you may have been some Microserf in the 80s but that doesn't make you privy to all the business tactics used by MS.  

And from my reading 15,000 copies of a piece of software is a little more than "a few dozen companies"  I especially like the quote form Brad Silverberg a senior MS executive

"We are engaged in a FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) campaign to let the press know about some of the bugs. We’ll provide info a few bugs at a time to stretch it out.”

So yes, MS did pull the bogus bug window prior to the final release of Windows 3.1 but by then the damage was done, the rumor was Dr-Dos wouldn't run all the applications.

This is MS, this is their modus opperandi, to sow the seeds in an underhanded way to have to keep from truly competing.  

How about the FUD about using Open source?

How about their backing of SCO in their BS case against linux?

Regards

Joe Dokes

So mike,

Do you admit that MS is a frequent liar about everything but Apple?

Regards

Joe Dokes

Joe

I was there. I have no idea who wrote that article you're quoting from not the context of the statements (what are 3rd hand reports or "an unnamed source stated" kinds of things)

And, back then, Microsoft was small enough that you didn't have secret executive cabals doing evil things. You have Bill in building 6 and Brad in building 1. And I was hearing about it at the same time it was happening.

Sorry you can't get me to change the subject...

So, again, (and again and again) do you have an example of a Microsoft ad lying about Apple?

So, summing it up again...

The stench of desparation coming off these latest two attack ads is pretty pathetic. What a sad end for a company that used to be known for innovation.

Mike:

Stop cutting and pasting that ridiculous statement. If not, then at least  s/desparation/desperation/ .  I see how you might use it for rhetorical purposes but it is a statement from the Blowhard School.

Out in the real world :-

gawker.com/.../outrage-apple-continues-to-mock-microsoft

"Apple's only problem: the people who buy PCs, such as myself, don't even know what this "Vista" thing is."

www.adrants.com/.../apple-pokes-fun-at-vistas-300-million.php

"While $300 million is certainly a lot of money, it is, no doubt, far less than what Microsoft spends on the development of Vista. Still, the commercial is timely and continues to effectively poke holes in the, rightly or wrongly, tarnished Vista."

featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/.../apples-new-ad-h.html

"The 30-second spot, which first aired Sunday, is an edgier-than-usual entry into a fun, but always pointed, campaign that a political operative might appreciate." and "A recent survey from Gartner, a tech researcher, found that 61 percent of respondents are thinking about skipping Vista. "

I never forget that Apple is still the A/V club fighting against the football jocks so until Apple grow in size I don't mind if the jocks go crying home to Mommy.

ps Could you point out where Apple have lied about MS eg some indefensible statement from Apple that could not be described as satire, hyperbole, parody or poking fun.

As soon as I saw this (I think on CNET) I thought "Paul Thurrott is going to drop his bundle over this".

Not that I disagree. And TechCrunch sees it similarly too. And a few other people might see things differently than apple apparently do.

I mean, did no one ring the "irony" alarm when they came up with the idea of advertising that the other guy advertises too much?

Did no one ring the "hypocrisy" alarm over all the stuff Paul pointed out? (ie. Their much larger advertising budget than MS and their many broken applications and services?).

I'm not sure Apple just jumped the shark, but their ad campaign may have.

Mary - "I will do no such bloody thing. You display your arrogance by even asking me! I don't have to confirm something in writing (especially on this Blog!) for it to be true."

So Marry - what are you doing in this blog ? By the way Mike Galos is not "Arrogant"  on the contrary he is level headed and  he has been factual through out this discussion. He has also offered to recant his statement - bring the proof!

225 comments. Is this a record?

Outstanding work people. Outstanding work.

Very Interesting! At almost 225 comments no one has come back with an answer to Mike Galos question

"So, again, (and again and again) do you have an example of a Microsoft ad lying about Apple?"

I wonder why no one has answered MIke Galos his question.

discussions.apple.com/forum.jspa

"So, again, (and again and again) do you have an example of a Microsoft ad lying about Apple?"

"I wonder why no one has answered MIke Galos his question."

That is because NEITHER company has lied about the other. Mike's straw man argument needs put out of its misery.

As an aside can one libel a company?

"for the purposes of injuring the reputation and good name of such person."  Does MS have a reputation and good name to injure? It's like a streetwalker suing after being called a woman of ill repute by another co-worker.

@mikegalos

"Fascinating. I asked where Microsoft's ads lied about Macintosh and you gave us absolutely no examples but went on a long diatribe about every random anti-Microsoft rumor you'd heard and chose to believe."

Firsty, Apple has not lied about Microsoft. They are correct in what they are saying. Vista is a tarnished brand and will never recover. All other ads are also true.

So asking for examples where Microsoft lied about Apple is irrelevant, Since the reverse has not occurred.

But who has proved that Apple has lied in an ad either. No-one has and no-one here will. Same for Microsoft

Over here we have a phrase "economic with the actuality" and is what I was doing with Mike's quotes. I wasn't lying in those quotes but I wasn't forthcoming with the whole truth either. Just as when he said I was as honest as Apple he was implying I was dishonest when what I wrote was factually correct.

So unless your both the budget holder for Marketing AND the budget holder for Vista fixes you don't know. Simple as.

The ad was funny and plays on the public perception, whether it is a lie is moot. The biggest problem with MS adverts is that, for the most part they meander, and don't attempt to land a clean punch. They need to learn how less is sometimes more.

@mikegalos

"Oh, and you do know that Apple has a routine in OS X that causes a kernel panic (Apple's BSOD) if it detects that it's running on non-Apple hardware..."

OS X is does not support anything other than Apple hardware. So what;s your point? You think Apple wants their superior OS running on inferior (and cheap) hardware? LIke the *** that Windows (Vista) is? Then you end up with crap hardware makers putting your OS with a boat load of crap-ware.. yes, the Windows world.

"The question was whether Microsoft's ads have lied about Apple.

None of those are Microsoft ads about Apple."

That's because Microsoft have inferior products. So they don't have the ammunition to place strong ads about Apple. All they can do is have lame ads like the recent "I'm a PC" and Seinfeld ads.

@mikegalos

SInce you insist, here is Microsoft lying: news.cnet.com/2100-1001-961994.html

Clearly lying and deceitful.

And here's an example of Microsoft stealing: daringfireball.net/.../microsoft_workgroup_manager_icon

Yep, because Microsoft is a poor helpless little innocent flower. Come on!

"That's because Microsoft have inferior products. So they don't have the ammunition to place strong ads about Apple. All they can do is have lame ads like the recent "I'm a PC" and Seinfeld ads."

That is really one of the most asinine arguments I've heard yet from Apple wingnuts.

Apple doesn't even mention the term OSX, does that mean they are too embarrassed by their own OS?

"And here's an example of Microsoft stealing: daringfireball.net/.../microsoft_workgroup_manager_icon"

IS THIS SERIOUS?^^^

I dont know what's worse, the blog posting that actually made such a stupid claim, or you actually taking it seriously.

WHAT TRIPE!

@master3: are you in denial? They stole that icon. Plain and simple. Then when they got caught they removed it.

@master3: you must be in denial. I was able to catch Microsoft in the act by seeing that page of theirs at the time using the Apple icon. I don't know what you don't understand or believe about that.

Wow, I wake up and see over two hundred posts! I saw said ad on TV. My wife [who has never used a Mac] laughed. I asked her if she believed it and she said 'No', because it's a 'satire' that could be based on truth or not, but a satire. however, the 'Apple tax' statement from MS is totally wrong. If the buying strategy was the norm, I should know at least one Mac user that did something close to it, but I know of no one. This kind of news [Apple Tax] can devastate sales, but the Mac ads, after a 3 year run, haven't hurt MS one bit. And the Apple Tax statement has absolutely no basis of truth, but is a plain old BS, a list of as many updates as they can find for a Mac and as little as possible for Windows.

BTW, I can reme,ber some from MS stating that the iPhone was the most expesive phone in the world, when it was not as well. Or Bill stating that Mac are 'getting broken into every day', when confronted with Windows security issues.

I'm not stating that Apple's satirical Ads are proper, but the behavior that hurts business more s that of MS, since Apple's ads don't seem hurt MS at all, as stated above by net revenue in two weeks = Apple's annual net, whcih is what someone stated above.

Still, Apple laptops are overpriced, especially the MBP. You really must have a need for Leopard or be a Mac lover to buy it.

"Apple doesn't even mention the term OSX, does that mean they are too embarrassed by their own OS?"

What?! When the ads mention "Mac" it means OS X. The thing is, if your product is inferior, you'd be pretty lame to mention it in your ads. Hence why Microsoft does not fire back a direct shot at Apple. Which is surprising, since Microsoft is lame.

@drwam: "BTW, I can reme,ber some from MS stating that the iPhone was the most expesive phone in the world, when it was not as well."

I remember that as well. You looked at him saying that and couldn't believe it. Well, I guess the guy's so out of touch.

The difference, doc, is that statements and PRs are read by a handful of people. Ads, on the other hand, have a much larger audience.

BTW, a valid Apple ad would be, "Please buy a Mac because our software SUCKS on PCs."

Next up on WTN:  The "L" Word, starring Steve Jobs.

"Bill stating that Mac are 'getting broken into every day', when confronted with Windows security issues."

You should try and dispute that with a buddy of mine - he works for one of the country's (mine, of course) biggest IT security firms.

Currently they've amassed in the neighbourhood of 70 remote-code security exploits for OS X that haven't been fixed since day-one.  Apple is aware of all of them, too.

"the Apple Tax statement has absolutely no basis of truth"

"Apple laptops are overpriced, especially the MBP"

You just proved his point.

"a valid Apple ad would be, "Please buy a Mac because our software SUCKS on PCs.""

No, a valid Apple ad would be: "Please buy a Mac, then buy our next software release next year, and then the year after that, and then....oops, then you have to buy a new Mac again!"

A valid iPod ad would be:  "Buy the iPod xG, then buy next year's model, and every model after that or else Steve will eat this basket of puppies."  :P

"What?! When the ads mention "Mac" it means OS X. The thing is, if your product is inferior, you'd be pretty lame to mention it in your ads. Hence why Microsoft does not fire back a direct shot at Apple. Which is surprising, since Microsoft is lame."

Again more anise BS.

OSX = operating system

Mac = Macintosh = Computer

How many times have you seen OSX mentioned? How many times have you've seen it being used in their ad? Seeing that they dont, I guess its safe to say that OSX is lame.

And yes i read your "brilliant" expose of the corporate conspiracy at MS to "steal" Apple's precious icon. And it still read as a person with no life catching a lazy webpage hack designer at Microsoft. Or our we to expect Balmer to be frogged marched into federal prison for that?

"What a sad end for a company that used to be known for innovation."  Once again we hear that Apple's "end" is near!!!

www.appleinsider.com/.../last_minute_estimates_have_apple_selling_2_8m_macs_in_sept_q.html

Oh um Master, those 2.8 million Macs Apple sold came with OS X pre-installed, weird how that works.  

Chuckb84: Your 9:07pm comment:  Appreciate your comment there. Thanks.

Mike Galos: I've been a looooong time reader of Spencer Katt!!

Shark: I can't give it up. Cause when you know that people are saying untruths you have to stand up. Look at Mike G. and his fight against the Apple crazies here :-)

By the way, I've decided next month I'm purchasing the new style Macbook. Hmm...should I put the little Apple logo sicker on the back window of my Jag XJ? Maybe right next to my "FUND SDI" sticker...and that is next to my "Membership Ted Nugent Hunt Club"  sticker.

Who was it in this thread that did not understand my reference to liberals and San Fransisco? Who doesn't make that connection?  I'll give you a hint: history of SF, Nancy Pelosi is the Rep. Code Pink is founded there...and Michael Moore should be Mayor there, the city council voted to have the Marines kicked out of the city, oh and I believe the City Council once voted to give Gorbachev a medal for ending the Cold War. So see there is the history of SF being a liberal/commie area.

By the way my favorite Presidents are Calvin Coolidge, Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush. There I said and I'm proud to say it!

By the way Mike G. : Even though you're apparently a screaming liberal I still believe you're a "Good American" :-)

Stickers on a Jag?  That has to be against some law?

"This crisis may very well have never happened if the Fed hadn't used their open market operations to keep interest rates below their natural market level given the demand for lending."

I don't agree with you very much John, but I got to hand it to you, you have summarized one of the core problems that existed.  Rather than let the economy air out it's dirty laundry with a correction years ago, the rates were kept low to stimulate growth.  However, you can only stimulate so much, like what we had here last week(s).  Which is the way he wants it.  Well, he get's it.  I don't like it anymore than you John.  ;)  Anywho, look at Japan.  They have interest rates so low that they can no longer stimulate.

Back on topic, I can't see why Apple would attack the ads.  Really, doesn't make sense.  If you want to talk about marketing money not well spent, well this type of ad is more of a wink and a handshake to the most ardent fans of the company.  It will fall on generally deaf ears with a topic that is so obscure.  Was it childish?  I don't know, but they could direct their resources in another direction.  However, the ads are fair game generally.  Don't hate the players, hate the game.

Mike:

"So, summing it up again...

The stench of desparation coming off these latest two attack ads is pretty pathetic. What a sad end for a company that used to be known for innovation."

Oh... now I got it... You are talking about the Gates/Seinfeld ads... Damn! it took me about 4 reposts and a spelling checker to find out...

This ad is funnier anyway:

www.youtube.com/watch

"I put the little Apple logo sicker on the back window of my Jag XJ?"

Maybe you should put it beside that "I asphyxiate babies with my exhaust" bumper sticker.

Dip:

Well said, man...

You are absolutely right. I wish the game would change :-(

Cheers,

Lindy:  hahahaahahah   I was only joking about stickers.

Hey Mike G.: are you in this mess of long haired hippies: www.cnn.com/video

Saw this article this morning from the Drudgereport: www.guardian.co.uk/.../banking-useconomy   which ( and Mike G. should love this ) by the way the Drudgereport.com is my homepage.

Waethorn,

I don't understand your comment. By the way I work in the medical industry, specifically at a large hospital and I think you'd be surprised at the number of doctors that drive Jags.

"I put the little Apple logo sicker on the back window of my Jag XJ?"

Maybe you should put it beside that "I asphyxiate babies with my exhaust" bumper sticker."

Lol!

Or next to the one that says "What do you get for 1 trillion dollars, 4000+ American lives and countless innocent iraqi civilian lives?......nothing"

"By the way I work in the medical industry, specifically at a large hospital and I think you'd be surprised at the number of doctors that drive Jags."

Right, because Bush stands to make money on an invested interest in the declining bank market (quite literally, since the government will own a good percentage of stake in the banks), socializing it makes sense.  But socialized medicine won't make any money, so it's not good enough for him, and hence "evil".  Evil indeed, Mr. Bush.  Evil indeed.  

By the way, Del:  After which round of golf will you and Mr. Bush find those terrorists???

Just makes me glad to live where I do.

"How many times have you seen OSX [sic] mentioned? How many times have you've [sic] seen it being used in their ad? Seeing that they dont [sic], I guess its safe to say that OSX [sic] is lame."

Ten seconds of research shows me that you haven't really seen the ads. Here are a few that specifically mention OS X:

Podium - PC, in the style of a political candidate, is standing at a podium making declarations about Windows Vista, urging those who are having compatibility problems with existing hardware to simply replace them and to ignore the new features of Mac OS X Leopard - however, he privately admits to Mac that he himself has downgraded to Windows XP three weeks ago. His key slogan is "It's not about what Vista can do for you, it's what you can buy for Vista."

Touché – Right after PC introduces himself, the Mac character replies, "And I'm a PC too". Mac explains to the confused PC that he can run both Mac OS X and Microsoft Windows, calling himself "the only computer you'll ever need." PC mutters, "Oh...touché." The Mac character, referring to the rules of fencing, explains that one only says "touché" after he or she makes a point and someone else makes a counterpoint, but the PC character continues to misuse the word.

Trust Mac – PC, in an attempt to hide from spyware, is wearing a trench coat with dark glasses and a false mustache. PC offers Mac a disguise, but Mac declines, saying he doesn't have to worry about the normal PC spyware and viruses with Mac OS X.

Web Campaign:  Emergency Refresh - A banner ad on the top of the page reads, "Vista... one of the biggest blunders in technology?" -CNET.com. Off to the side, PC sees the banner and realizes its another bad review of Vista and decides to do an emergency refresh. He walks over and opens a compartment door that says "Emergency Banner Refresh." PC flips the switch, and the banner is replaced by another banner that reads, "It's time for a Vista do-over" - PC Magazine. PC, frustrated about this review, flips the switch again. The banner is replaced by another that reads, "Mac OS X Leopard: A Perfect 10" - InfoWorld. PC sees this positive review and is relieved until he realizes it's about Leopard. PC angrily flips the switch again to end the ad.

Keynote Video: MacWorld Expo 2008 - PC and Mac stand under a "Happy New Year" sign, and PC talks about what a terrible year 2007 has been for him, referring to Windows Vista as a failure while Apple Inc. experienced success with Mac OS X Leopard, iPod Touch, and iPhone. Despite this, PC says he is optimistic for the future, claiming it to be "The Year of the PC". When asked what his plans are for 2008, PC states he is "just going to copy everything [Mac] did in 2007."

Waethorn: Nice to see you're still proudly living up to the moniker in your avatar.

@Lindy

Finally we agree on something.  Ask Bush how many/much hookers and coke that buys him.

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