SuperSite Blog

OK. That's just creepy.

Bizarro world continues, but Mike has joined.

"as bad as putting a Coke machine in an elementary school".

and it's "just creepy".

Guys, it might be fun for the kids. Just fun and perhaps even a wee bit educational. Lord knows the schools already do lots of worse things for field trips. I don't think it will be -extremely- useful, but "creepy".

Guys, you need to get out more.

Were you saving this?  It was all over the 'blogosphere' a while ago.

Methinks you'd rather talk about anything other than the stellar results Apple posted yesterday.   Why don't you engage your readers in a discussion of *that* ?

Yeah, um, when I was a kid?  We went on a field trip to a dairy?  And I've been drinking milk to this day.

Maybe you'd like it more if people could go on field trips to the <a href="www.theonion.com/.../thousands_wait_overnight_at">Microsoft stores</a>.

yes Paul, but this happens in all different kind of fields, here in England a restaurant chain, Pizza Express, has kids mornings in which primary school classes go in to spend the morning in the restaurant they gat to make pizzas, cakes, they get free pizza, free drinks and few gadget from the restaurant chain. Is not just apple that is "disgusting" is the corporate mindset.

It's no wonder Paul writes about Apple, we probably bring him more ad revenue than every other blog topic combined.

Hey Paul if you want, Fox News is hiring hacks.

I don't think it's creppy, just very, very strange.

Most school trips I went on took us somewhere were we got to see how something was made. Is the purpose of this trip to turn kids into consumers?

Guess that where all the future geniuses will come from.

>Most school trips I went on took us somewhere were we got to see how something was made.<

What they do:

>>a big-screen presentation of work that the students have already done in class (Keynote/PowerPoint, movies & more) or hands-on creation sessions that allow the kids to make new projects in the store.<<

***Again...why all negative posts about Apple when they just had spectacular news yesterday?***  

Ask yourself that.

Apple isn't wrong for offering this, but I'd be mighty upset if my school board decided to spend money and waste educational time on such a field trip.

"Ask yourself that."

OK, I did.  What am I supposed to do now?

You know, if you don't like the content, you don't have to keep coming back.  Simple as that.

Well perhaps they should go to MS Stores, oh they don't have any. Shame.

Apple has long been associated with education, this is just an extension.

I suppose the schools could take kids to PC World etc to play with Vista and learn how anti-virus software works. You might want to pump them with Prozac though, the ambience is a bit depressing.

>I suppose the schools could take kids to PC World etc to play with Vista and learn how anti-virus software works.<

This is like awesome in 10 or 11 different ways.

I don't think that this is any more of a problem than Microsoft offering discounted software to students, teachers, and educational institutions. It is just a marketing ploy....nothing creepy about it, mikegalos. But, since you are or were an evangelist, I guess that is like a televangelist calling the old rock group KISS creepy...because it is an acronym for Knights in Satan's Service. Baseless cause for spreading FUD, which is what you have done, Mike, by calling it creepy.

--tayme

But at least at the food store they would learn how to make a pizza, which if they pay attention would allow them to go home and make pizzas and maybe help feed someone - what educational benefit is there to going to a computer store?

I agree with those that say fine for them offering it, it's just crazy that anyone would actually take them up on the offer....

tayme

There's a big difference between taking 7 year olds to a museum to see art or fossils as a school activity and taking them to a retail store for a morning of sales pitches.

I'd hope you actually know that and are just being fanatically devoted to the Apple brand. The alternative that corporate sales pitches are acceptable as elementary school education is just too depressing to contemplate.

somebody have the pills please ???

I guess they don't brainwash the kids in the Applestore, rather do some educational games I guess. There's nothing indecent or immoral in going to an Applestore !

....and THAT'S why the american education system sucks.

>a  morning of sales pitches<

Somebody failed to read the website.

@mikegalos - I believe that it is obvious that I am not fanatically devoted to the Apple brand...Just as obvious as it is that you seem to be fanatically devoted to the Microsoft brand...furthered by your current or former title as an evangelist.

Much like an earlier post...when I was a kid, schools went on field trips to many commercial places...Based on my daughter's experience...they still do. This is no more "creepy" than that. Now, do I think that they should be wasting dollars on that...not at all...but it is not "creepy" in any way.

--tayme

Why Paul might be just a touch biased:

www.winsupersite.com/.../winsecrets_sp1_29books.jpg

ocean

Actually, I DID read the website. And what I saw was precisely a series of hands-on demos designed to get the kids to whine at their parents to buy them a Mac. A multi-hour long commercial aimed at children.

You really think that's valid education for elementary school students?

Really?

tayme

When you were a kid your school took you to retail stores for a few hours of sales demonstrations? What hell-hole of a school district did you suffer through?

...guys. but even if they do convince few children/parents to buy some Macs...what's wrong with that??? at the end we're all going to win, Apple increases their market penetration, Microsoft will  have to work their butt off to keep ahead of them and the consumer, by result, gets more choice and better products...those children will be grown up at one point and will be able to make their mind up, based on what they need a pc for, on which platform to invest.

On  serious note, I think what Apple is doing is no better or worse than any other capitalist pig company  However,

I read in a newspaper today that a member of parliament was complaining that some primary school kids are being left behind because they don't have access to a PC.

Now if I were running the government I would help the children's future by ripping out all the computers in primary schools and not buying any more. Make them a computer free zone. Kids will have plenty of time to learn about computers when they get into their teens. When they are young they should be doing proper playing and proper learning through the teacher and other kids, not at a keyboard.

Guaranteed, this new generation of kids wouldn't have half the social and health problems that the current generation have if this were implemented and we would save a ton of money to boot. We would also be encouraging the kind of creativity that enriches the world rather than just making it faster and more efficient.

Rant over.

You people need help in a REALLY BAD way if you think this is creepy.  

So elementary kids go to a computer store and are shown how they can be creative with a computer and that is creepy????????  Apple use to own the schools for years and upon years.  My high school, way back in the day was loaded with Apple IIe computers.

Do you really think its a sales pitch?  25 or so kids would be going NUTS 2 min into a sales pitch.  I know I have 3 elementary kids.

Maybe they should go to the local MS office and play some Saints Row 2 or Halo 3 on the 360's they have in the conference room, that is until they RROD  and they have to leave.

Paul you SERIOUSLY need help brother in the WORST kind of way.  Dam what a freak show this site has turned into!!  It was amusing at first but its getting "creepy".  I once heard someone say "better living through chemicals" when talking about depression medication, maybe its time to get some?

Unbelievable.

Simply un-freakin-believable.

The Apple-fans in residence really do seem to think that schools should send elementary school students to a retail stores for hands-on product demos as a valid part of a good education.

This explains so much about the "knowledge and competence are bad" theme that's become so pervasive in society over the last few decades and justified considering George W. Bush and Sarah Palin as acceptable leaders.

Just unbelievable.

The Apple-fans in residence really do seem to think that schools should send elementary school students to a retail stores for hands-on product demos as a valid part of a good education."

You sir are simply a moron.  Did anyone say "schools should send" or that we think it would be a "hands-on product demo".  NO we did not.  The broad brush BS does not float Mikey, no one said any of that.

I think is OK, nothing special, something for them to experience, like going to the fire department or train museum, or a fish hatchery or a company that makes bread.  Just things to see and experience.  A 1/2 hour trip to play with computers is NOT and Education.

Yeah unbelievable.

"A 1/2 hour trip to play with computers is NOT and [sic] Education [sic]."

So school time for "NOT an Education", eh?

....and americans wonder where their tax dollars....

Next up - bring your kid to the toy department of Walmart day.

Yeah that 1 hour trip to the Apple Store to play with computers, education games, take pictures whatever is cutting so much out of the school year.

My kids get 4 or 5 short field trips a year....about a days worth total, maybe.  They went to a local news station, talked to the weather gal and such and were bored out of their heads.  I can guarantee if we had given them the choice to go play with computers for an hour they would have chosen it.

Yeah Creeeeeeeeepy.  You ladies still sleep with a night light on?

Careful Waethorn

Apparently thinking that kids should get an education in school rather than an hour long commercial for a retail product that their parents can buy them proves that you "need help in a REALLY BAD way" and should be taking psychoactive medication.

(Or maybe it's the lack of psychoactives that makes some of us think schools are supposed to do education)

So? It's like a computer lab for those poor schools who don't have one. I think it's a good thing. Besides, how is this any different from having PCs at school? Should computers, then not be used in school, in your opinion? Second of all, they're not forcing it on schools, nor paying them. It's completely voluntary...

"It's completely voluntary..."

So is giving up your personal privacy to Google.  It's completely voluntary for you to use Google.  They're just using you in return though.

LOL The microsoft Mikey logic twist.  If you cant answer the direct point, spin/slant it baby!

If you really think a free 1 hour field trip to play with computer in a creative way is "CREEPY" yes you NEED help.  Mike you already needed help, so you just need more now.

"maybe it's the lack of psychoactives that makes some of us think schools are supposed to do education"

Welcome to the Ritalin generation.

Mike likes to make up phrases that he thinks we ought to have said such that he can then let loose on them.

It's one hour for freaks sake and it is probably more educational than much of what makes up the syllabus in many schools these days. Come to think of it though it probably does come under religious education.

I bet if it was to a Microsoft store we wouldn't hear a word from you. Fanboy.

Then again, a Microsoft store would be a slum.

Why not try and post some original content on here? 95% of posts are re-blogs of others' work. Some unbiased commentary too would be a welcome change. And maybe try and tip the balance to more Microsoft and Windows related stuff (align more with the title of the re-blog) than it currently is? I guess not when Microsoft is your master.

A field trip to a computer manufacturing facility is educational. A field trip to a computer retail store is not.

robertsjoe,

Or you can just stop reading. Unless, of course, Paul has tied you to a chair in his basement and has forced you to read his blog and comment on it? Or is this part of your job? Commenting on anti-Apple articles and trying to destroy the credibility of the author? The anonymity doesn't help, does it?

Wow. A field trip to experience the Reality Distortion Field first hand. I thought RDF was fleeting. From the comments of some people here, apparently it's not.

Hehe, I remember my school ussed to take the kids to Alton Towers (a large british theme park) at the end of each school year, basically as a treat.

However, They still sent the same boilerplate consent letter to parents...

"Dear Mr/Mrs whatever, the school is planning an educational visit to Alton Towers on such and such date"

Lol, educational visit to a theme park! We get to learn how bad it feels to ride a rollercoaster after stuffing our faces stupid with sweets (candy)!

@shark47: "Commenting on anti-Apple articles and trying to destroy the credibility of the author?"

Now you're being melodramatic. Commenting on anti-Apple posts is not OK, but writing anti-Apple posts (like this blog) is? All I said was that I bet if Microsoft did the same thing we wouldn't hear a sound out of WinSuperSite.

Because you don't bother to read them, "robertsjoe".

Paul has criticized Microsoft on numerous occasions either on his blog or on the TWIT site. Some of the criticism was uncalled for too. So don't give me this "Paul only writes anti-Apple posts" arguments because those are the only ones that you read. He has been extremely critical of the XBox group, the Windows Mobile group, and even the Windows group at times.

No it is not a good thing to take kids to a store for this. There is no educational value and Im sure the point would have been to just introduce a brand to them more than anything else.

That would be the same if it was Best Buy or the GAP.

Gee Paul,

Where your outrage at MS

Gee MS has been doing this for years.

blogs.msdn.com/.../campus-connection.aspx

Or why go to MS when MS can come to you!!

tabletpceducation.blogspot.com/.../microsoft-tablet-pc-school-bus-tour.html

FYI Paul, Pull your f-ing head out.  Virtually every business offers these kinds of things.  My kid as a kindergartner visited a Trader Joe's.  I visited Disneyland on several occasions, they actually have a pretty neat tour on the runnings and technology of Disney.  Oh yeah, and then they turn you loose in the Park.  In elementary school we toured a McDonalds, in Cub Scouts we toured a Pizza Hut, and in Auto Shop in HS we toured a GM dealership.  

Really Paul,  The only thing sad about Apple's program is your outrage.

@shark47: "Paul has criticized Microsoft on numerous occasions either on his blog or on the TWIT site. Some of the criticism was uncalled for too. So don't give me this "Paul only writes anti-Apple posts" arguments because those are the only ones that you read."

Oh please. He may take a dig at MS now and then. But look at it without your MSFT colored glasses for a minute. I'm sure if someone did a count of anti-Apple vs anti-MSFT posts you'd see the scales heavily leaning to anti-Apple. The amusing thing is that the MS guys here are so blind.

Paul, you think this is bad? I've seen a 5 year old with a cell phone and a 7 year old with a myspace account. So this is nothing. Ever thought that this could be educational? Edcuational games. Beats going to mcdonalds and eating that crap.

I dont get why you bash apple so much, if you "hate" them so much why do you cover apple news in the first place?

Do you go to the apple site and search for silly mistakes?

Paul, get off your ass, stop being a geek and spend time with your wife and kids. By you not spending time, and bashing apple, I find that

"discussing"

@chris1990 oh dont say McNasty is "crap" because Shark and Mike take their Zunes there and eat the good food and Zune out.

@Joe Dokes nice find, doubtful Mike and the others blasting this as some kind of brain washing gig, even have kids.  Kids go to all kinds of places like a few have mentioned, and usually all of them have some kind of educational factor to them.   My sons scout den just went to a grocery store and learned all about how fresh produce comes in and is prepared, facts and figures about how much per day, per week etc.

If it was a bath house I could see the "creepy" factor, short of that Paul treats Steve Jobs and Apple like he is a jilted lover.  If anything is "creep" its his obsession.

My class actually went to the Coke factory on a field trip when I was about 7.

And let me tell you, I've been enjoying 20 years of delicious coke flavour ever since. Life goes better with Coke.

Corporate brain-washing aside, yes it's creepy, but just about all corporations market to kids. My First Sony, anyone?

Name a large corporation and they're doing their best to claw out the brains of our little ones and replace them with a collection of slogans and "opinions" for the to live their life with.

Fortunately, the younger they attempt to get the kids, the more likely, and the earlier they see marketing for what it is: Bull-poop.

Kids of today are screwed. (see bellow) they are getting worse and worse. i graduated High school back in June, (class of 2008) and from my 4 years of school year, 3 dealing with the freshmen, I have to say the 2005-2006 freshmen were the best. Fact I have a few class of 2009 friends.

My senior year (last year) was great expect the freshmen. All they did was wine, moan and complain. Show off their ipods and zunes.

Being a full blown 90s kid was great, We were nothing like the kids of today, and wernt like the kids of tomorow.

So could this help kids, may be, but what kids really need is some good old fashion 90s educational stuff. Some of you older people may disagree but come on, the days of 10,000,000 page books and woman in gray dresses, red lipstick and gray hair with glasses are long over. The internet is today. Most of my time in the school libary in the late 90s was in the computer lab, around the time of the internet boom.

@ Lindy

I work there, and I grew up on them, (Not "grew up" on them, i mean I never ate at another fast food place during my childhood besides Taco Bell and subway. Mcds, Taco Bell and Subway were the only ones i ever went to) so I do prefer them no matter what, (Employee discount too) the only thing si- or what paul will say Discussing.

Zunes? Please, I see more people bring in laptops at my work then crappy zunes. and who the hell are Shark and Mike

@mikegalos - If you are including me in your irrational rant about the "Apple - fans in residence" feeling that it is a valid part of a good education then you need to retract your statements along with your idiotic question "What hell-hole of a school district did you suffer through?" because you obviously know absolutely nothing about what I think or where I went to school.

Also, your comment, "This explains so much about the "knowledge and competence are bad" theme that's become so pervasive in society over the last few decades and justified considering George W. Bush and Sarah Palin as acceptable leaders." is way off base, dude. You know that the teachers union that supports the dumbing down of our children have been supporting the most liberal democrats in the house, senate, and executive branch of the government for decades, right? Remember, 1+1 only equals 2...3 is not "good enough" nor does it deserve any credit for the "effort". A personal example of this kind of crap was when my daughter was in 5th grade and brough home her math homework during the first week of school. There was a word problem to solve in the assignment from the text book that was in Spanish. She did not know Spanish at that point in her life and asked me for help. I told her to take it back to school and have the Math teacher translate it for her, then she could do the problem. There was absolutely no reason to have that problem in Spanish in Math class. None, what-so-ever! This is what the NEA feels necessary to do...graduating illiterate kids from high school is not right. And don't give me any crap about "No Child Left Behind" being a Republican Act....we all know who wrote it...the drunk from Massachusetts and the idiot from California.

GET OVER YOURSELF, MAN!!!

--tayme

"Sorry, but that’s disgusting, and just about as bad as putting a Coke machine in an elementary school. Shame on them for this."

"OK. That's just creepy."

Seriously Paul and Mike, what is your problem with Apple doing this? You obviously think it's ok for pretty much everyone else, including Microsoft, to do this kind of stuff. At least Apple are being transparent. You certainly know where they're getting at when they offer a field trip to a store: it's a place where you sell stuff, you know.

Teaching kids they can do cool stuff with a computer is great.

Sure, I hate the "it is only good if it is open source" and the "it is only good if it is Apple" crowds, but just getting some kids to appreciate computers for more then just Facebook/MySpace/YouTube is a good thing.

Too many of my peers are unaware of how to do anything really productive with a computer, let alone with the mechanics of how one works. At very least they need to learn they can create or even at very, very least, game, on their computers.

The first computer I used was an old Apple computer of some sort in Kindergarten way back in the mid-nineties. My interest in computers snowballed over time, and here I am.

So while I don't think this is quite the Coke machine you make it out to be due to my early experience with computers being helpful to me, I understand the branding issues and targeting that goes on there. If you don't like corporations writing the curriculum for your children, put more funding into schools, or of course, homeschool. The teachers have little resources, and when they have nowhere else to turn, the corporations are right behind them to pick up the slack, and of course, brand their brands into the minds of the youth.

Is it evil? Is it wrong?

In my opinion, less so with a computer company; I've read what the food companies do to target kids, with "science curriculum" being "slotted spoon tests" between spaghetti sauces (being no more then thinly disguised marketing). Hyping computers to kids doesn't seem as bad in comparison.

I did check out the link you gave to the fieldtrip page, and the thing that got me most was the limit on class size was 25 students. I can't remember a class in grade school that small. But meh, it is a small detail amongst the arguments of those attacking and defending Apple over another small detail.

Actually I agree with the initial sentiment of "creepy".

If I had kids and they were at school, and the school took them on a trip to an apple store, I'd be really pissed off.

There is enough advertising blasted at kids these days without them being subjected to mandatory trips round shops.

@ mdsharpe

Really? Even if it was educational? What if they took them to a macdonalds? You rather see your kids get fat and die from hear desease? You want them to be bored. Some parrent you are.

A trip to the apple store doesnt mean they go all over and play games and get on wired websites. You were to damn lazzy to read the entire point.what are you 65?

Computers are the feature, and as paul said "get them while they are young" meaning, dont wait till someone like  you tells them when or when not they can use a computer to do 95% of school work that is down today.

@ mdsharpe

Really? Even if it was educational? What if they took them to a macdonalds? You rather see your kids get fat and die from hear desease? You want them to be bored. Some parrent you are.

A trip to the apple store doesnt mean they go all over and play games and get on wired websites. You were to damn lazzy to read the entire point.what are you 65?

Computers are the feature, and as paul said "get them while they are young" meaning, dont wait till someone like  you tells them when or when not they can use a computer to do 95% of school work that is down today.

Also branding is a part of life. the kids will eventery be exposded to branding.

get used to it people. this is lifem, dont like it, theres the door, dont let it hit you on the way out

"@chris1990 oh dont say McNasty is "crap" because Shark and Mike take their Zunes there and eat the good food and Zune out."

No. I don't. I actually travel with my iPod Touch these days. Go figure. The Zune is and has always been for my car.

Regarding McDonalds, I don't eat there and don't much care for it. What I have a problem with is people who think Starbucks food is healthier just because Starbucks is cooler and has a partnership with Apple (or had one,  I don't know). Starbucks is full of unhealthy options. Maybe, the only things that won't cause a heart attack or a stroke when consumed on a regular basis there are regular coffee and a cappuccino made with skim milk. Anyway, the Starbucks cappuccino tastes like crap.

So, "Lindy", you're wrong on both counts, just like you've been wrong on several other occasions. I guess the only discussion worth having with you guys and where you guys are able to contribute is where to stick that free Apple stickers that you get when you purchase their products.

I don't like to advertise for any company unless I get paid for it (which I don't and probably never will), so, in case, someone doesn't have enough Apple logos on their windshield, I can actually mail a couple more to them. Jaguar, anyone?

Do you have to compare everything to the worst available option to justify it? Case in point - this field trip could have been compared to a field trip to the museum, which is truly educational. But, no - you want to talk about a field trip to McDonalds. Why not make it worse? Field trip to a coke dealer? Field trip to a bar? See, a field trip to Apple is better than all of that.

.Chris1990:

I wouldn't trust anyone who so brutally mashed together the badly spelt words you have when they are talking about education. I think it may be so bad as to qualify for some sort of Supersite prize.

"Eventary". Classic.

"Hehe, I remember my school ussed to take the kids to Alton Towers (a large british theme park) at the end of each school year, basically as a treat."

I went to a theme park in high school too.  Of course, it was for a MUSIC COMPETITION.  Schools in neighbouring districts competed too.  It took up most of the morning, and we were only there until 4, so it's not like we had much time to ride the rides.  Luckily it was early in the year on a weekday, so there were next to no lineups at the rides.  It wasn't free either.  We still had to pay ~1/2 of the general admission price (about $19 at the time).  It was just a good place to do it though, because it was (and still is) one of the biggest (and cheapest) outdoor amphitheatres to rent.  Groups can rent it for practically nothing, but scheduling has to be done no less than 6 months ahead of time because of demand.  Students pay half price on gen admission, and most of that goes to the rental fee of the amphitheatre, so it's a pretty good deal for most schools.

Re: McRaunchy's

If I lived on the east coast, I'd eat McLobster every day it was in season.  And it IS real lobster meat if you're wondering - that's why it's only available on the east coast.  If it were fake lobster meat, they wouldn't be able to carry it exclusively in the east because fake lobster meat is made from Alaskan Pollock (a fish) - and you can't catch it in the east.  The McLobster uses the same kind of roll that the Toasted Deli Sandwiches used to be on.

If I go there (which isn't often, mind you), I usually get one of their new premium sandwiches on the chiabatta buns.  Their angus burger is pretty good.  They used to have the toasted deli sandwiches, but they've pulled them or modified them.  They still have the Turkey BLT, but it's now on a chiabatta, as is the Crispy/Grilled Chicken sandwich.  They actually use REAL tomatos now too.  It used to be (only a few years ago), if you asked for tomato on a sandwich, they'd just put ketchup on it.

After several times when I'd order a sandwich at Tim Horton's, and got rotten lettuce or green tomatos with stems in them (I still eat their donuts/muffins/Timbits/coffee though), I've decided that I'd rather eat at McDonalds.

The only issue I have is that they took balsamic vinaigrette off the choice of salad dressings.  The Greek is pretty good, but has an awful lot of pepper in it though.

My kids went to a Mexican restaurant in 2nd grade with the school, watched the food get prepared and ate the food, They are going to a pumkin patch with the school today, and these places charge a bundle and they have small retail stores and the kids walk through them too. The school had Rita's water ice at most events for free, and the owners hand out coupons.

MY 3rd grader has an after school computer club that I pay and it's all Windows. This does give Windows an unfair advantage in sales. But parents buy the computers, although the kids can certainly ask for a specific OS. But I do have some reservation about an Apple store trip. It just seems like a trip to any retail store to me, unless it demos the OS and apps and nothing else. Walking through the store just serves no purpose to their education and I would rather them be in the classroom. Apple has the right to offer anything the want, and none of us know what actually happens there, so to judge on face value could easily be wrong. I think that the school district would only consider a trip if it had educational value and would be wrong to send the kids if it it did not. But it would be the schools wrong act, not Apple, since all the above events had more retail than education and the school sponsored them.

@DRWAM what exactly do you think they would be doing there?  Reading the site and I see...

"Take your students on a Field Trip to an Apple Store for an unforgettable learning experience. On their Field Trip, students can create something amazing right on the spot. Or they can bring in a project they’ve already created and turn our store into a theater, sharing their achievements with parents, teachers, and friends. No matter which option you choose, everyone will have a great time."

and....

"Create amazing projects.

Your students can use the Mac computers in our store to create photo albums in iPhoto, edit video in iMovie, build websites in iWeb, make Keynote presentations, or even compose their own songs in GarageBand."

and a shout out to Windows users here....

"Showcase their work.

If your students have already created amazing projects on Macs or PCs in school or at home, they can share them with others in our store and get the recognition they deserve for their talented work."

My kids, both my twins in second grade and one in pre-school went to a pumpkin patch this year, I went along as well.  They ran around in a corn maze, on hay bails shaped into a castle, got a free pumpkin, looked at some farm animals, stepped in goat shat and fed a few goats.  Oh and got a carmel apple and this is a private school I pay for.

shark, it's like the same people that think that Panera Bread is healthy.  It has a cool image, but check the nutrition facts.  That McDonalds may be better for you!

Like I said before.  This is not unusual for a corporate entity to promote this.  Do I think there is educational value in this?  Some, but very little.  Seeing the manufacturing process, or the coding process, or, even the marketing process?  Yeah, that has real value.  Touring a car dealership or a pizza place, like mentioned by someone else, has more value because it shows you the inner workings of these places.  Going to a store, which they could go to anyway, is a little bit above what I want to see my kid do or have my school district spend money on.  

Once again, my contention with this is not that Apple is doing it, but I'd be angry at my school district if they tried it.

And Chris1990, what the H are you talking about?  I can barely understand you.  Just graduated?  Go back in, I think they made a mistake.

Ok MikeGalos, you hypocrite, let's hear you call MS creepy

blogs.msdn.com/.../campus-connection.aspx

tabletpceducation.blogspot.com/.../microsoft-tablet-pc-school-bus-tour.html

Meanwhile, you ALL need to figure out what is "creepy" and what is "objectionable"...you find a school trip to be "objectionable".

The guy who stalks girls, or the child molester that watches kids on the playground....*THAT* is "creepy".

Ok now, hypocrite MikeGalos...is MS creepy?  Follow the links above and lets us all know!

Like I said before: You're off the rails, Paul.

This kind of fake outrage is the best you can do?

Sad.

GREAT links, "panache". Hypocrisy, thy name is Thurrott.

That's a good point made by a few that Apple's offer isn't necesarilly (spelling? I never paid that much attenshun :) ) a bad thing, although it appears to offer little in terms of education value - and that the school board ultimately decides to take the kids or not.

I still think it's kind of strange though.

Actually Lindy, reading the promo makes me want to send my wife!

The computer club that my 8 yr old attends for an hour each week after school use XP, not even Vista! I mean, if you're going to teach, use the latest tools for crying out loud.

Lindy, you been here a while, but if you don't know, I have 7 yr old twins. They less than 11 months younger than my 8 yr old. I almost threw away all my vitamins when we found out we were having twins, and decided it was time to stop following the extreme Catholic tradition if you know what I mean. At my age, having more kids would kill me.

panache

Do you even bother reading the articles you post?

The first is a program going to Universities to train teachers about new programming techniques not about taking 3rd graders to a retail store.

The second is somebody's personal blog wishing there was an school program about tablet PCs

Now, care to apologize for posting deceptive links?

How about finally telling all of us about the Mac that's equivalent to the Dell I posted in reply to your FUD comment?  You'll probably say a $2700 Mac Pro IS equivalent to a $609 Dell and not much more expensivs since you think updating computer science professors about new programming techniques is equivalent to giving sales demos to 8 year olds.

Lol My twins (boy/girl) are 7, the little one is 4.  We are as about as Catholic as you can get.  They go to our parish school, which has all Windows XP on 1 year old Dells no less.  The school did not want Vista after the parish office had tried it on a few machines.  I helped set up the school environment which is a a simple AD domain with about 150 PC's on the network.

Mikey I will take your Dell/Mac Pro challange.  Your argument is typical PC fanboy BS.

Configure like for like, not some inspiron cheap desktop.  The Dell equal to the Mac Pro is this...

configure.us.dell.com/.../config.aspx

vs

store.apple.com/.../mac_pro

Workstation to Workstation comparison.  Not workstation to cheap *** PC.  Spec out dual 2.8ghz quad cores on that Dell.....its more expensive.

Lindy,

Perhaps you didn't bother reading the original post (but you did post in the thread, so maybe you just wanted to change the actual question)

Here's the actual post:

----------------------

Since Panache asked, I just configured a system at Dell. Apple fans, please tell me how much an equivalent Macintosh desktop would cost since you keep saying there's little to no price difference.

Intel Core 2 Duo 2.53GHz

Windows Vista Premium SP1

No Monitor

2GB RAM

500GM SATA drive

16x DVD+/-RW drive

ATI Radeon HD 3450 with HDMI

16-in-1 Media Card Reader

10/1000 Ethernet

2 IEEE 1394 ports (1 front/1 back)

6 USB 2.0 ports (2 front/4 back)

Empty card slots for expansion

Empty drive bays for expansion

The Dell costs $609 as described.

(And don't bother telling me why I don't need the features that Apple doesn't want me to have. If they want my business, I expect a computer company to sell me what I want and not insist that I only want what they choose to sell)

Needless to say I prefer a Windows vendor with a motto of "We'll sell you what you need" rather than Apple's mantra of "We'll tell you what you need"

Apple has received great publicity from this.  I'm sure they're thankful

Nope did not ready it.  My time on this site is spotty at best, I can miss weeks at a time.

Clearly Apple has no equivalent to that PC.  There are holes in their offering, and I can only guess they perceive not enough demand.  

The iMac would be the only thing close but its way more expensive but comes with a built in LCD

Well, Lindy, playing by the same rules that get thrown out by Apple fans (such as the one you tried to substitute) there is an Apple equivalent. I don't see "there's a hole in their offerings probably because there's no demand" excuse accepted when it's a comparison against one of the few Apple configurations. The rule used is pick the closest and add components until you meet the exact match.

So, using the same rules, there IS an Apple that meets these needs. It's a base Macintosh Pro with an upgraded hard drive and a 3rd party media card reader. I price it at something like $2,700.

It does mean I have to buy some things I don't need. but that's true of every comparison of systems and there is nothing in the system I specified that's in the least bit unusual (except maybe IEEE 1394 but that's in both systems so it doesn't matter). This is not an obscure, low demand computer with exotic requirements. It's a totally generic mainstream desktop system. This is pretty much what every home user buys. And to get those basic needs met, I've got to spend over 4 times as much...

Just as an FYI to be thorough, if I went with the much more expensive iMac I'd have to give up:

The ability to choose or update my monitor

An HDMI video port

16-in-1 Media Card Reader

Half of the 6 USB 2.0 ports I wanted

Empty card slots for expansion

Empty drive bays for expansion

Upgradable video (which people DO upgrade a fair amount)

Ability to install more than 4GB RAM

And even after giving up those options and my ability to choose what I want in my computer, I end up paying well over double the price.

And if the answer is, why not go with a laptop, there are NO Apple choices including the latest Mac Book Pro that offer me a reasonable hard drive size to be considered a "desktop replacement" even at the insanely high prices at the top of the line MBP.

And if the answer is, why not go with a Mac Mini, there are no configurations that even come close to modern desktop specs.

What Paul has become regarding Apple is truly sad, though not unpredictable.  Paul is a bomb thrower, a hypocritical and an intellectual coward.  

He rails against manufactured non-issues like this post and his phony "FUD" of the previous bash-fest.  He hypocritically attacks other writers for their alleged biases while ignoring his own and blatantly coloring everything he does in transparent self-interest (like promoting a book about "Vista Secrets" while bashing Apple).  He uses bigoted generalization like "iCabal" in ludicrously broad ways to erect pathetic strawman arguments.

And worst of all, he throws these bombs, doesn't have the guts to enter the discussion on "his" site and then arbitrarily shuts down the comments.

That's just cowardice.  Paul has become more and more bitter and petulant with each passing quarter of Apple success.  Each quarter that they're expensive computers grow at double digit rates, Paul doubles down on bile.

At least Mike Galos and Waethorn are in the fray.  I disagree with them pretty much across the board, but they at least have the guts to engage.  Paul does not.  I didn't always think of him this way.  But he's brought this conclusion on himself with his writing and his moderation of this blog.  

Paul has become a bitter partisan hack that sustains himself entirely on the corporate teet of Microsoft.  That his attacks on Apple amount to an extension of Microsoft's own campaign is very telling from his critical-thinking free endorsement of ever ad MS has run, to his parroting of the "Apple Tax" straight from MS marketing talking points to his willful ignorance of Microsoft's deeply dishonest "Apple Tax" comparison chart.

And now, as Apple crosses the 10 million in 2008 threshold for the iphone a full quarter early, we get zero introspection.  What we get instead of bizarre lines of attack on Apple.

ps. as for the "content" of this article, whatever.  Is it bad for a school trip to be hosted at a retail outlet?  Maybe, maybe not.  I doubt Paul was up in arms when Microsoft fulfilled anti-trust punishment with vouchers for more Microsoft products in schools.  I believe that's called "price dumping" but I'm sure Paul considered it "charity".

His over-the-top reaction to this is hilarious, though.  

Mike are a full on tool.

There is no comparison simple as that.  Comparing the MacPro is far off base, can you stick a second CPU in that Dell, or 32gigs or RAM?

If you are going to compare a iMac with a Dell then pick the XPS 1.

configure.us.dell.com/.../config.aspx

vs

store.apple.com/.../A

The Dell is cheaper by $125 and even then the specs are exact but as close as you can get.

You know what Mike, I don't think Apple is the right choice for you.

Flip it round. What equivalent does Dell have for the Mac Pro. None. Because it doesn't have the quality of industrial design. You may (would) say I don't care about the case I just want a freakin' computer but that is irrelevant using your style of argument. We can all create scenarios where one has a gap that the others don't. If it must be able to run OS X and Windows then you can only, legally, by Apple.

In this world of ever increasing complexity it can actually be a benefit to have fewer choices.

Lindy

Gee, I guess you don't like a fair comparison with a real world top selling computer so the only way you're willing to play is to change the rules. And then make personal attacks when you can't win.

I think my point was made pretty clearly by both the comparisons and your responses.

Scooby

When the "gap" is the major main stream computer configuration that's hardly just a gap, that's a gaping chasm.

The reality is that the range of Macs is tiny, badly out of date and skips the whole market segment that most people actually buy (The mid-range desktop)

The answer of "Don't buy what you need, buy what Apple wants to sell you" really doesn't wash with anyone who didn't start out saying they'd only buy a Mac and is looking for excuses to justify their purchase even when it doesn't fit their actual needs.

What's really funny is that Mike's and Lindy's argument about machine comparisson are the same, albeit from opposite sides!

oh mike galos, you are a funny guy.  Copied and Pasted from the MS link I posted

"Field Trip!

The Microsoft Campus Connection Tour might just make an interesting field trip for some students. These events are taking place all over the country at various college campuses. There are presentations on Windows Vista and Office 12, tools for Information Technology professional and an introduction to developing interactive web applications using the latest verion of Visual Studio. And of course there are prizes being given away. "

Office 12 and Widnows Vista.  Doesn't sound like new programming techniques to me...oh and about visual studio, it's AN INTRODUCTION....also, they give away prizes!  

The POINT was that it's not "CREEPY" like a perverted stalker or something.

Oh, and here is a TRUE, ROUGHLY EQUIVALENT Dell vs iMac

iMac 20"  (1,499.00)

2.66GHz Intel Core 2 Duo

2 GB 800MHZ SDRAM

320GB SATA Drive

ATI Radeon HD 2600 PRO with 256MB

Dell XPS One (1,199.00)

E6550 (2.33 GHZ)

2GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz

ATI Mobility Radeon HD 2400 Video Card

320GB SATA

I don't need to have all that crapware installed when I get the iMac either, and no need (yet) for anti-virus software.  The DELL gave me virtually NO OPTIONS to upgrade the RAM, the Processor (both are upgradeable on the iMac)...so you're telling me, that a $300 price difference, but with a fast processor, and faster RAM, and a better video card, is a HUGE price difference?!  HARDLY!

Not to mention, if I already have a Windows License, the iMac can run that too....sounds like a much better deal to me...

Mike, you are a liar and a hypocrite, sorry to say it.

(PS..you want to upgrade your Windows box to more than 4GB, well, actually 3GB, you better get win64...yes yes, we all know that the Leopard kernel doesn't run in 64 bit mode, but all the applications still have 64-bit address space access, not to mention the far superior LP64 model instead of LLP64.  In addition Snow Leopard will be fully 64, and all users will be using it instead of a splintered code base of some using 32, and some using 64).

Now...back to my job developing software on Windows using Visual Studio (which rocks, for the most part!)

gorath

Actually they're pretty much opposite.

I'm saying if you spec out what you need in a computer, you'll almost always find a much less expensive solution that more precisely fits those needs in a Windows computer.

Lindy's argument basically says, start out with the Mac you want and if you want to justify the expense, you can probably find a Windows PC that's as expensive.

One argument is based on identifying needs first and picking the matching computer, the other's on picking the computer first.

(oh, and I don't call Lindy "a full on tool" or say his arguments are "typical PC fanboy BS" or say his choices are "cheap ***")

Lindy,

Mike doesn't understand what a fair comparison is.  He takes a machine that is nothing at all like an iMac, and compares it to an iMac...then says, "What are you going to do, compare it to Mac Pro (the model mainly used for servers are very high end processing)."

He's truly pathetic.  Then he goes on to say that he DID make a fair comparison, and that you just can't accept it, and that YOU are the one changing the rules!  LOL.

You know what the best part is?  The whole POINT of the XPS1 is to compete with Apple!  They never would have made an all in one model if they didn't see the success Apple was having with theirs.

And THEN Mike goes on to say about not targeting the "mid range desktop"...but what he fails to accept is that people buying Macs aren't looking for the Mid Range desktop....

He's truly a pathetic man, who can't accept that what he feels and thinks is NOT always the case.

Gee panache

You said go to Dell and we'd find that Macs aren't much more expensive. I did. They are. (Oh, and the system I spec'd out at $609 was using Windows Vista 64-bit and supports 8GB of RAM on that motherboard.)

As for the other, try reading the whole article and not just select paragraphs and treating your "It doesn't sound like..." opinions on partial content as though they're part of the program.

Gap, chasm, schmasm. Apple have decided to design and market their products a particular way and that is for the medium to high end both in consumer and business segments. It seems to be pretty profitable and that's what they are in business for.

I have issues with their range at the moment that has postponed my buying for now and would love a midrange, headless desktop. However I am sure that my requirements aren't so unflinchingly specific that there isn't a suitable option in the future. The first thing that SJ (PBUH) did when he came back was to narrow the range because there was a real inventory problem with a mish-mash of models. That was the time of the billion dollar quarterly loss, how times have changed.

PCs obviously have an advantage because lots of companies make their own models, for a single company to try and match that would be suicidal. They do what they do best and stick to it. Choice is over-rated when it is applied to a commodity item such as a generic PC.

LOL..Mike Galos logic at it again!

"I'm saying if you spec out what you need in a computer, you'll almost always find a much less expensive solution that more precisely fits those needs in a Windows computer."

Apply that to ANYTHING...i need a car that gets me from A to B with reasonable acceleration...does Nissan make one?  Toyota?  Chevrolet?

Pick the Cheapest one that fits your BARE BONES requirements..

That is Mike Galos logic in a nutshell...if it does the trick.....right?

LOL

Sorry to rain their Panache, but I am looking for a mid-range, headless desktop Mac . It's the biggest problem I have with the Apple range at the moment. I currently have an iMac which I really like and works well but I will not upgrade to a machine with a glossy screen.

I suspect many others would like that gap to be filled also. MG is right that their  is a gap there, where I disagree is that I don't believe Apple has any requirement to meet that need if it doesn't fit their business strategy. It's just TS for me.

When I build my high end Windows machine (probably won't be for a few more years), I'll let you know the cost.

Then again, I'll be using all the highest end gear...fastest RAM, fastest HD, etc.

I think my point's being made pretty well.

If Apple doesn't make it you don't want it.

If you want something that Apple doesn't make, change your mind.

First pick the Apple you want and then stop comparing

Choice is bad. Buy what Apple tells you.

And this is from people saying competition is good when they explain why people need OS X.

Mike, I want  a brand new 20", Vista laptop that fits in my pocket and costs $10. Where can I buy it? Clearly it must exist because I have decided that is what I want!!

Ok Mike I will use your logic.  I DON'T Vista.  I think its a horrendous pile of hot steamy shat.

So no Dell will be good for me, unless I want to pay $99 for XP to be installed or go with Ubuntu.  No if Dell got Apple to allow them to install OS X, I might go for it.  Then again I have Zero need for a desktop computer.

@scoobyclub I would maker sure you get the 20" Vista laptop that has a battery life of 4 hours.....and fits in your pocket:)

scooby

"MG is right that their  is a gap there, where I disagree is that I don't believe Apple has any requirement to meet that need if it doesn't fit their business strategy."

Nope. I don't feel Apple has any obligation to fill that gap. That's their business decision. I just don't pretend that the gap isn't there or that it isn't a huge segment of the market that Apple is choosing to ignore or excuse that business decision by saying people don't need what Apple chose not to make.

Excusing that business decision by saying that nobody buys desktops or that all-in-one computers are the best choice or that laptops are the only thing people are really buying these days (all of which have been said on this board at various times to justify that gap) is, however, intellectually dishonest.

scooby

If somebody finds a way to meet your need for a 20" laptop that fits in your pocket and costs $10 then get it. If it's Apple. Great. If it's somebody else. Great.

What I'm saying is figure out the needs first, then find out who best meets those needs.

Lindy

If you decide that your only decision point is that your computer runs OS X then you only have one choice in vendor. At which point, the fact that you have vastly limited choices is the cost of meeting your need. But don't pretend that choice wasn't a wildly expensive one.

How the hell is it dishonest?

I see desktop computers targeted at corporate business cubes, gamers and serious CAD/3-D modeling type workstation users.  Step out of those requirements then the popularity of Desktop computers drops drastically.  

Notebooks have been out selling Desktops since what 2003?

The question is does Apple see for their consumer oriented market enough of a need to justify the cost of designing and supporting it?  I say no, the iMac fills that need for them and if you read the rumors the Mac Mini is going to be dropped soon because is sales are not good.

If someone is seriously considering switching to a Mac, that the lack of a mid range desktop is NOT even being considered among the things they are considering.

Microsoft is about choice?

I'm not sure if Apple doesn't want to make that line because people should buy what they say they should buy, but actually they don't want to enter the low end market with very low profit margins. I think that they should. Yes it's true that a Xeon WS from Dell or HP is much more expensive, and the comparable all-in one from Dell is about the same price [I actually think the low end Dell with a 320GB HD but 2.33GHz CPU is the same as the iMac with a 2.4 GHz CPU and 250GB HD], but the MBP cost a lot more than the equiv. PC. Mike's point as that people may want to choose a less costly system that will fulfill most or all of their needs. He can even use a Mac user, me as an example with my $400 Acer laptop. I can afford to buy much more, but did not need a  more costly Apple laptop. Also, many low end expandable computer can easily fill the needs of the home or business buyer. Subzero mentioned a while back that Psystar made an more affordable Mac, and obviously made money, so why can't Apple? It's because they choose to be in a high margin market. Let's face it, the Mac Mini is really,really low end. While i have never test driven one, I suppose that it too can fulfill many consumer needs, but it is less expandable than similar priced, more powerful Windows PC's. I'm afraid we Mackies can't really win that argument. [Mike, I slipped in that 4400 laptop reference again. I am trying to perpetually annoy everyone with it].

I have a black Macbook that is my primary personal computer.  I have a T61 for work as well, that I only use for Work.  I can use my Macbook for work if I want to deal with Citrix.

I wanted a small notebook, 14inch or smaller but preferably a 13.3 inch which I consider perfect for me.  I dont play games on a PC so the video card that used the least power/heat was the best for me.  When I was shopping it came down to Dell, Sony and Apple.  In the 13.3 inch market area the Macbook was slightly more expensive than the Dell XPS 1330 and way cheaper than the Sony.  The Macbook with the ability to run any OS won.

@mikegalos - You have still failed to answer these 3 simple questions...I truly am curious as to the answers.

1.  Please let us know your objections to others' use of a non-Microsoft OS to complete the work that they chose to do, using the tools that they choose to use.

2.  If a person chooses to spend their own money to buy what they prefer, what business is it of yours?

3.  Please explain why you spend 16 hours a day on Paul's blog fighting a battle that you have no stake in.

Oh, and does anybody know....is Pystar still selling PC's with OS X installed?  I can't tell by their website. I think that they were in a legal battle with Apple over it at one point.

--tayme

DRWAM,

Your references to your cheapo $400 Acer laptop that runs Vista perfectly is not annoying....what's annoying is that you keep pointing it out to Mike Galos...LOL!

Everyone knows to look for your reference to the $400 laptop.  In fact, if you didn't mention the $400 laptop, it just wouldn't be a post from DRWAM!  LOL!

There, I mentioned it three times for you!  ;)

Also.....one thing...this is American man!  If company A wants to sell widget X for $1000, and company B wants to sell the EXACT SAME widget for $1500, they can.  They get to set the prices they want to charge...in fact, they should charge the most the can that willing are people to pay, and not a penny more.  However, clearly Apple does not sell the same Widget....

Just because Mike Galos doesn't like the fact that Apple is making money hand over fist doesn't mean Apple should lower their prices, or target the cheapo market (where Mike Galos likes to swim).

This still way off point...the point in all this is that taking kids on a field trip to an Apple store is not "CREEPY"......if someone wants to call it "stupid", "foolish", "pointless", etc...whatever...but it's not "CREEPY".

Lindy

Nope. In general sales, desktops outsell laptops.

What may have confused you is that in 2005 (not 2003), US RETAIL notebook sales beat desktops for the first time by 50.9% to 49.1%. That, of course, is only true because it ignores the entire online "build and customize" channel where desktops dominate as well as the business channel.

Again, if Apple decides they don't want to compete in the mainstream market is fine. Pretending the market doesn't exist because Apple isn't in it is not.

Dude

"Microsoft is about choice?"

Compared with Apple? Absolutely.

Tayme,

The questions you are asking is probably the same answer you would find if you asked a relgious jew to convert to christianty, or Islam...or a religious muslim to convert to judaism or christianity...or a religious christian to convert to judaism or islam...or...etc etc.

What's the answer?  Probably something like, "No, because they are all wrong, and I'm right"

DRWAM

You got a good laptop for $400?

Tell us more!

:-)

tayme

To, once again, answer your cute attempts at questions...

1.  Please let us know your objections to others' use of a non-Microsoft OS to complete the work that they chose to do, using the tools that they choose to use.

I don't. I object to people lying about other products. If you want to use CP/M on an 8080 that's fine with me. Just don't lie about other products.

2.  If a person chooses to spend their own money to buy what they prefer, what business is it of yours?

Again, I don't care what they spend their money on. If you want to spend $4K on a desktop that's fine with me. But don't tell me that a $609 Dell or DRWAM's $400 laptop is, to quote this board, "a piece of shat" or "cheap ***" because it isn't your choice. If you have real reasons, fine, state those and be willing to factually defend them if they're questioned.

3.  Please explain why you spend 16 hours a day on Paul's blog fighting a battle that you have no stake in.

Everyone needs a hobby. And correcting lies and "everybody knows" bull is one I like to do when I'm waiting for repies on more serious email and listening to podcasts. (and, no, I don't spend 16 hours a day here so your premises were wrong 3 times out of 3. Kind of like watching a Mac ad.)

I'm just happy to be annoying to someone, otherwise, I feel left out here.

Actually, I don't quite fit in this community as my IT responsibilities are very limited, but my interest is high, and I use products from many companies. As I've stated before, I'm not loyal to any one company, but expect them to be loyal to me. After all, it was my money that bought their product, so I expect adequate support.