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Wow! They had the money to work on improving Vista despite spending $300mn on advertising?

Come on Shark!  That wasn't the point...it wasn't that MS was spending ALL their money on fixing Vista...it was just a <insert your favorite adjective here> way of saying..

"instead of spending 300M on advertising, why dont' you spend 100M, and put that other 200 towards Fixing Vista (on top of whatever else you are spending"..

or something like that.....please...MS's coffers are virtually full, and will probably never be depleted.

Shark

Impossible. That would mean Apple (gasp) lied to all of us!

Notice this comment "...and are written using public APIs."

I'm not one that suggests people use non-public APIs, but this *could* signify that there *MAY* be code out there that will no longer work....

In my opinion though, code that uses non-public APIs should fail....that's the price you pay.

A company as large as Microsoft can do many things at the same time, like advertising, product development, and R&D

It's almost a crime that this has to be stated to adults, but alas the interweb isnt known for being the domain of adults. At least not anymore.

panache

There are always companies that find tricks to do something that don't involve actual published APIs.

What Mike Nash is saying is that Microsoft maintained full backward compatibility with all the published APIs. Which is a big deal.

panache

On the lying. Go look at the ads again. Apple is saying pretty clearly that Microsoft pulled their Vista R&D budget and spent it on advertising.

And that, of course, is a blatant lie that gets excused by Apple fans because they like the lie better than the truth.

"Adds Windows Connect Now (WCN) to simplify Wi-Fi Configuration."

Oh so it will be as easy as OS X now, good stuff.

Gents, is this problem fixed by auto updates on my home computers because both the hospital IT and my Office IT people sent this out:

URGENT IT ALERT

Security Alert

Through our partner relationship with Microsoft we have received the following Critical Security Update Alert:

Microsoft has released a critical security patch that needs to be applied to every workstation and server within Virtua to protect us from a potential worm. Due to this extreme risk, we will be pushing this patch today between the times of 2 PM – 5 PM. All workstations will be forced to reboot after the patch is installed. Once the patch is installed you will be given a 5 minute warning message before your PC reboots. Please be sure to save your work prior to the reboot. You may experience intermittent application issues while the servers are being patched.

You should also consider addressing your office and home computers since they share this vulnerablility.

The additions Mr Nash points to in SP2 seem useful and timely (that is, better than being held for Win 7).  Go! Microsoft.

As to ads.  I start from the assumption that all ads (in all media) are lies. If they are entertaining enough, I may watch/listen/read instead of ignore (eg Budweiser frogs [I dislike beer and don't consume it]).

That said, Apple is managing to push the lie meter way farther than even I want to put up with (but nonetheless the ads are amusing, and I've become a Hodgman fan because of the series, whose end point OUGHT to have been two or more ads ago [before Accountant]).

DRWAM

That's the update that came out yesterday that's the fix for the buffer overflow error in the RPC parser in the Server Service.

If you have Windows Update checking daily it should already be installed by now.

If you have Windows Update turned off, you should run it to get the fix.

If your PC is managed by a VAR or other partner then they'll send you mail like this when they're ready to push it out.

It's a critical issue in older versions of Windows and less of an issue (but still install it) on Vista and WS2K8

Lindy,

It's already as simple as OS X (I had a Mac fan challenge me about that a couple of months ago and the biggest difference was a clickMenu then clickItem on Windows versus a clickMenu then slideToItem then releaseButton in one menu on OS X. (Which he insisted was a huge difference in ease of use to avoid admitting he was wrong)

Mike Galos.

I agree with you 100% regarding keeping the compatibility with published APIs.  And I agree that developers will always misbehave and use unpublished APIs...but if the code does break because of it, the responsibility is squarely on their shoulders, and not Microsoft's

I have seen the Apple budget commercial.  I am pretty sure that nowhere does it say that it is 100% of their budget.  If you are inferring that, maybe it is a reasonable conclusion, but one that you are jumping to on your own.  I have (misguided) faith in (most) people that they wouldn't be foolish enough to conclude that MS would spend their *FULL* budget on fixing Vista's "problems", whether real or perceived.

Apple did really good ads back in the 90s. My favorite being the one where the dad was trying to get a CD-Rom for his son to work on a PC, and finding that he had to jump through all types of hoops to get it going. The son got bored and went next door because they had a Mac which was already set up for that. It was accurate and not insulting.

Today it seems like Apple cant do an ad without streaching the truth or just flat out lying, and they all come across as arrogant. What happened to the ads from the early part of this decade for the 1st gen iPod or the gumdrop imacs? Go back to those!

johnbaxter

I'd say that typical ads are assumed to be putting the best face on the truth and are deceptive unless you pay attention. They can spin and imply but stop short of actually lying about things that are actually factual. (as opposed to opinions like "tastes great" for a product that I'd say tastes like shredded cardboard box)

Where the Apple ads go beyond this is that they actually lie.

That's not going right up to the line, that's going over it.

Johnbaxter,

I agree...those Apple ads are definitely starting to get annoying....you know which one I can't stand?  That idiotic one where Hodgeman hid in the pizza box......I just thought it was stupid.

As a general rule, anyone who is putting this much analysis and complaints into an ad for a computer needs to focus their energies on something more productive.

Thank Mike. they never told us what we should do. All that we got was the message that I posted. I blocked IE 7 installation on XP because of our problem with 3rd party software compatibility at work, but turned on auto updates as you suggested a while ago. This shows that you were correct. My two Vista computers [including my $400 Vista laptop] have auto updates turned on.

lindy it will be better than OSX... always

Mike Galos.

While I agree setting up your network on Windows (at least XP, i've never used Vista) is pretty easy, I did find it easier on the Mac.

And it wasn't a matter of clicking once and dragging once or whatever, it was a matter of figuring out where I needed to go to actually set it up....

Let's put it this way.....if someone had NEVER once before used either XP or Leopard, but knew what their network password was, they would probably be up and running on their Mac within 2 minutes, as opposed to maybe 2 minutes and 35 seconds on XP.

That's just been my experience....maybe I'm biased since I've been using Windows for so long and pretty much know exactly where to go.....but whatever.

Panache, I agree with you on the whole, that non-public APIs are a bad idea, however, some bleeding edge software bypasses the known APIs and hooks in order to implement often intruiging new features previously thought as impossible.

Is it their responsibility if a later update breaks compatability, sure it is. Should they have avoided doing so in the first place? Not necessarily.

Mike,

"On the lying. Go look at the ads again. Apple is saying pretty clearly that Microsoft pulled their Vista R&D budget and spent it on advertising.

And that, of course, is a blatant lie that gets excused by Apple fans because they like the lie better than the truth."

Sigh. Getting this upset over a commercial made by two COMEDIANS is like excoriating the TV show MASH because it isn't a literal and accurate depiction of the Army. (I'm now staying away from Sarah Palin/Tina Fey analogies :) )

Like I said before, Apple could not humorously exploit the negative stereotype of Vista if the perception wasn't already widespread.

panache

For some reason tied to some Mac fan sites he was insisting that I was lying because "everybody knows" that Vista has painfully hard to use wireless and Apple's is easy.

I literally went through it keystroke by keystroke and mouseclick by mouseclick with him and it was so close to identical as to be silly. And we even went through several scenarios.

He, of course, hadn't used a wireless LAN on Windows since pre-SP1 XP but was sure he was right. I, on the other hand, had just set up a Mac Book on the Microsoft corporate WiFi that week.

Even though I think the wireless thing has been done pretty well and is now pretty quick too, any improvement is welcome.

What most Mac users don't realize is that some of these things are again about what you're used to. I'm so used to PCs that moving from XP to Vista was very easy. Using OS X is a challenge for me because everything seems to be different. This is not a criticism of OS X. Hardly.

Regarding the Tina Fey/Palin reference. SNL is known for parodies. MASH was a TV show. Ads are different. There's a reason people reacted against McCain's celebrity ads or the Moses ads.

Apple is not exploiting a stereotype. Apple has spent millions of dollars to create this stereotype. The mainstream media plays along.

Chuck

"Like I said before, Apple could not humorously exploit the negative stereotype of Vista if the perception wasn't already widespread."

And that's flat out not true.

You can start a negative rumor campaign and destroy a person's reputatio without the perception being true or even something the person had any experience with.

As an example, how about if I spend say a million dollars paying people to say that you are a clueless bozo on every message board they can find? How much do you want to bet that by the third or fourth time they see a message about you they'll consider the first couple to be the "already widespread" stereotype. If you like, I'll have them say it as a joke about you being a clueless bozo and then defaming your character will be OK by your rules since it's comedy.

Working with political groups I've seen examples of anti-Semitism in towns where nobody is Jewish and racism in towns so ethnically uniform you wonder if they'd freak out at a person with a good tan. Are you saying they're getting their bigotry based on an existing perception?

But, hey, it's only a joke.

Gorath,

I see your point.  And, as you said, if the API is updated and breaks the code, then it is the developers responsibility to fix it.

This brings up a different point....I read somewhere a while ago (I don't remember when or where), that years ago, when Windows (95) was first taking off, that programs that used to work, were no longer working.  In fact, it was lousy code that was probably working by accident, that was no longer working (for example, freeing memory and then de-referencing the freed pointers)...

Microsoft went ahead and accounted for this, and made changes deep in the OS (if running_app == "simcity.exe" type of thing), and made it work.  Now, this helped the stability of the apps and made all the users happy because their programs ran.

In my opinion, this was a mistake.  MS should have let it crash, and said to the developers of the apps "You are doing something invalid, fix it"

Now, if they ever stop doing that (hacking up their OS) a lot of things that worked (but shouldn't have) will stop working (rightfully so) and MS will look bad, not the developer of the app.

Umm on OS X, if I take my Macbook to location that I have never been and it has wireless......

1. As soon as I get to my desktop (much faster than Vista) I get a popup in the middle of the screen that lists the access points it sees.  (with locks on the side if they are protected)

2. I choose which one I want, and click on the connect button....done.  (If it has a password I enter and then I am done.)

No screen dimming, private/public choice stuff after I have chosen the access point/password.

Wireless connection problems was another problem that Vista had early on "connected with limited access" was painful problem for many when it first launched.  

www.google.com/search

OBVIOUSLY there was a problem or perception of a problem with Joe User, hence the new feature.

panache

Actually the way it workd (and it was in Windows 95) was that there were a series of compatibility tweaks in the OS that could emulate things that were done differently in earlier versions or could correct common errors (Like checking for only the number after the decimal in an OS version to see if it was newer).

There was a section in the Win.INI file called [AppCompat] (I think) that contained lists of programs and versions and a list of flags that told Windows which compatibility settings to use for that version of that application.

Microsoft has long held the belief that customers shouldn't be punished for the application vendor's sloppy code and where they can, they do workarounds that fix things for the user.

You still see this today with the really amazingly flexible compatibility settings that you can do in Windows Vista to tweak how an application runs so that legacy apps can work even if they haven't been updated in a decade or so. If you right click on an application and select properties there's a Compatibility tab where you can tweak things to get old apps to run cleanly.

Lindy

Umm on WIndows Vista, if I take my laptop from my choice of vendors to location that I have never been and it has wireless......

1. As soon as it detects a new wireless connection I get a popup in the notification area of the screen that lists the access points it sees and whether they're locked.

2. I choose which one I want, and click on the connect button....done.  (If it has a password I enter and then I am done.)

If I have network security settings enabled and I'm not an administrator (and, not being an idiot, I don't run as an administrator when I don't need to) I confirm that I'm doing a security risk operation and have the option of telling the system to give greater access or to remember the network so I can connect automatically.

So, are you running as an administrator or does Apple just give full network access control rights to plain users? (If the former, you need a course on security, if the latter, Apple does)

I went to the first link in my post, which had MS knowledge base article link for a hotfix and it applies to the following versions....

• Windows Vista Ultimate

• Windows Vista Starter

• Windows Vista Home Premium

• Windows Vista Home Basic

• Windows Vista Enterprise

• Windows Vista Business 64-bit Edition

• Windows Vista Business

• Windows Vista Ultimate 64-bit Edition

• Windows Vista Home Premium 64-bit Edition

• Windows Vista Home Basic 64-bit Edition

• Windows Vista Enterprise 64-bit Edition

Dam that is flat out crazy, even more so when you see it listed out:)

Lindy

Yeah. Giving consumers what they want rather than telling them what they want. That's flat out crazy.

BTW: Are you taking over for ocean in the "let's post off topic subjects" role?

@mikegalos: Come on, Microsoft have lied also. Why don't you mention that?

As for Vista SP2, it looks like they are still busy fixing Vista's problems. But didn't Paul say that Vista's problems were fixed six months ago with SP1? Hardly.

robertsjoe

If you ever actually contribute something here I'll bother responding to your trolling.

But I suspect that'll be a long wait.

@mikegalos: The Microsoft apologist role goes a bit far when you try and somehow make the ridiculous numbers of Vista versions out there seem OK. It's not. It's a dumb, dumb move from MS. OS X has two versions. OS X and OS X Server. Trust MSFT to make the easy difficult.

@mikegalos: You keep ignoring the fact that Microsoft have lied in one of their ads. Don't keep going on about Apple without acknowledging that MSFT have also lied in an ad.

@mikegalos: You know I have contributed. I debunked the urban legend that Apple employees aren't allowed to blog. So it's not all as bad as you make it out to be. :)

I am just trying to reach half of your posts before the end of the day.  I have other stuff to do.  You should try it.

As I've said before, Microsoft COULD issue only Windows Vista Ultimate but that would mean that people would have to buy things they have no use for. Somehow, when Apple does that, their fans think that's a good idea...

It's that same old difference:

Microsoft sells you what you want

Apple tells you what you want

robertsjoe

You're right. I'd forgotten that was you that did the Apple blogging post.

So, what ad is it that you claim Microsoft lied in?

"Microsoft sells you what you want

Apple tells you what you want"

You'll excuse any mistake MSFT make. Microsoft doesn't know what the customer wants. All they know how to do is confuse them with many versions of a product. Always have done that. Microsoft gives you EVERYTHING in the OS. Not extortion whereby they offer what are essentially crippled versions of their OS. Apple gives everything to the desktop user in their ONE desktop OS. The same for server users.

@mikegalos: news.cnet.com/2100-1001-961994.html

Of course I'm sure you won't see this a lying. But really, it's a lie.

robertsjoe

Let's see if you think it's the same

The Microsoft piece you cite was:

* One page on the Microsoft web site and not a multimillion dollar multi-year tv ad campaign

* Pulled after less than a week when the use of a stock photo rather than the actual person was discovered

* Had text that was accurate (only the photo wasn't)

* Microsoft apologized for the page even though it was a screw up by the contracted ad agency

You really think that one use of a stock photo instead of a photo of the actual person in a web page with accurate content that existed for a few days is the equivalent of an massive multi-year ad campaign based on lying about a competitor's product?

robertsjoe

If you want everything it's hardly extortion to buy the full featured product (Windows Vista Ultimate)

If you don't want everything and Home Premium or Business meets your needs better, you have the option of buying a version with less features for less money.

It seems like you think that people should have no choice but to buy Vista Ultimate and Microsoft is evil for offering them a less expensive option without features they don't want anyway.

By the same token, we should lobby Apple to get rid of all those crippled products like the Mac Book (People should all have to buy the Mac Book Pro fully loaded) and what's with having 3 desktop lines. Kill the Mini and the iMac. Just sell a full 8-core Mac Pro. And only with the 30" display. Less confusion that way.

Hey Paul... I think you mean Q2 of 2009 not 2008 in the screenshot article.

@mikegalos: OK, so it's not lying. You MSFT fanboys are to blind. Why not change the photo on your driver's license or some other ID. See if the authorities think it's deceitful, lying? Microsoft are liars and thieves.

@mikegalos All the Vista versions is bad marketing. It's a bad idea. It's confusing.

Let's see

Microsoft ad agency screwed up and posted a wrong picture on one page of their website which Microsoft apologized for and pulled after it had been up for less than a week in October 2002.

robertsjoe's response:  "Microsoft are liars and thieves."

But Apple lying about their competitor for years on end in a multi-million dollar and multi-year ad campaign is fine.

And some people still wonder why Mac fans have a reputation for being hypocritical and irrational.

@robertsjoe All the Macintosh versions is bad marketing. It's a bad idea. It's confusing.

Mike you should just post "Last word I win".  

You seriously need to do something else with your time.

Vista having to many versions is seen universally as a bad move.  Even Pro Microsoft tech writers admit this.  Leopard at $129 or whatever with all of the features the OS can deliver and being the only version is clearly a better value.  

Microsoft should only sell Ultimate for $150 and have a wizard ask you which features you want upon install.  It can be done since Windows 2008 comes stripped down out of the box and you can even add "Desktop experience" to 2008 which gives you Aero, Media player etc.  It would make corporate desktop administrators happy as well, because the could deploy a stripped down version of Vista via WDS.

I am sure you will now tell me how I am wrong.  Have a nice evening and try to get off this site a few hours a day.

Mike, seriously, the amount of versions they offered of Vista, even though in the 'real world', there's only 3, is still too much.

There was nothing wrong with a professional version, and a home version.

Hell, you know what, a single client version of windows would be fine even.

bettieblu

First off, what's Windows 2008?

Gee, all the Mac people want Microsoft to sell full package Vista for the price of Apple's nearly annual point release upgrade.

Actually, I'd like to see Apple unbundle their applications to promote 3rd party development. And, yes, I include bundling iTunes and locking iPod to iTunes. Next they should admit they include the cost of the OS in with the hardware since you can't buy either one separately. Then they should charge a reasonable upgrade price for major releases (say, $120 for 10.x to 11.0 - about the same as Microsoft charges to update a consumer desktop OS) and give the minor point releases (like 10.4 to 10.5) away for free download like Microsoft does with things like SP1 and upgraded utilities.

So, does that work for you?

gorath

As you said, there are really only 3 versions of Vista for consumers and really even that's pretty much not true once you realize that 2 of the 3 are specialty products not meant for the general consumer.

Vista Home Basic is really only supposed to go on old legacy hardware and minimal PCs like the ones that use XP now (after all, even Doc's $400 laptop can run Premium)

Vista Home Premium is the mainstream consumer version of Vista. Probably 95% of users should have this as their version.

Vista Ultimate is meant for the limited number of professionals who work in the computer industry and need everything that's available in both the home and corporate versions as developers they can test features no matter who they target for their own product or as IT pros they can work with server admin tools from home.

The Mac equivalents are:

Home Basic - Buy a new computer from Apple.

Home Premium - OS X

Ultimate - No comparable product since Apple doesn't even begin to support corporate needs

Sorry mike, that's bullcrap.

Plenty of budget machines are being sold with home basic. Home premium is fine for the most art, but Ultimate gives you....

Full PC backup

Support for dynamic RAID arrays

Full user account security controls

Bitlocker.

These are features that should be in EVERY vista install.

Seriously, Ultimate should have been the only version out there, as it can easily be turned into any of the others if neccesarry.

Also, while we're on the subject, what's with the arbitrary RAM limitation in home premium?

"Mike, seriously, the amount of versions they offered of Vista, even though in the 'real world', there's only 3, is still too much."

And I would agree with that. The old saying goes, "keep it simple, stupid." Even though most consumers will install Home Premium, it still looks confusing. They should have Windows 7 Home, Windows 7 Business, and Windows 7 Ultimate as the three OEM versions.

Who has honestly used the new WiFi Protected Setup in Vista?  Any time I set up someones home router, I use it, as I don't have to log into the router firmware to set it up.  I can see it being very easy for beginners because you set up the router in Windows - even wireless security - instead of typing in the IP address into a browser.  Asking a customer to do that over the phone is a nightmare.  What Microsoft did was standardized the setup in Windows.  It's brilliant.  It works with any router supporting WPS too.  It's a much easier support option than trying to learn every single brand of web-based firmware or setup CD.  Highly recommended.

Now that I think about it, the problem isn't that there are too many versions of Windows Vista, it's that they made all the names too appealing to the general public and OEMs. The confusion would have been eliminated by naming the existing three versions:

Windows Vista for Old Computers

Windows Vista

Windows Vista for Professional Geeks

I know I'd buy "Geek Edition"

gorath

You're not arguing for less versions, you just want a different feature mix. Well, actually, I think you just want Vista Ultimate for the price of Vista Home Premium...

Having said that, having one version of Windows is stupid. The one size fits all approach may work on the Mac side. It definitely will not work on the PC side. What will a business PC do with MEdia Center? Why does a home PC need Bitlocker or IIS?

Apple can sell software for less because they make a lot of money from hardware sales. Microsoft is a software company, primarily. It's just not the same. Moreover, Apple caters to one market. People who want white computers with OS X installed. Microsoft caters to at least two distinct markets.

"Now that I think about it, the problem isn't that there are too many versions of Windows Vista, it's that they made all the names too appealing to the general public and OEMs. "

I think you're right. At least, I agree with you on that.

Wae

I haven't used it yet but most of the Windows Rally stuff is very cool.

"Plenty of budget machines are being sold with home basic."

Untrue.

blogs.zdnet.com/Bott

Anyway, Ed Bott has a good take on the number of Windows versions.

blogs.zdnet.com/Bott

@gorath:

"full PC backup"

Home users are more likely to get viruses (9/10 times because of their own ignorance or stupidity).  Full backup is a mistake.

"dynamic RAID"

Compared to what?  How many home users use RAID after all?!  Go ahead and prove it - I build computers for a living.  Besides that, the few customers that have will have used Intel Matrix Storage on systems I've built (and that's not very many, mind you).

Show me an iMac that you can do RAID on anyway...they only support single hard drives!

"full user account security controls"

??!

You mean UAC?  Sorry to say but that's the same.  You mean domain-join?  Show me a home user with a server running as an Active Directory Domain Controller and we'll talk.

"bitlocker"

Again, show me a home user that needs full-drive encryption and we'll talk.  Does OS X even support hardware-assisted full-drive encryption?  I think not.  MacBooks don't ship with TPM chips after all.

I think 3 versions are good enough. Most home users don't need features like BitLocker and Dynamic Raid or IIS. Business users would definitely not want Windows Media Center. I agree with Ed Bott that Microsoft could probably have done a better job of drawing the lines and with Mike that Microsoft could have come up with a better set of names.

@sharky:

Let's not forget that stuff like the kernel, Apache, and lots of stuff I'm forgetting, doesn't cost Apple a cent in R&D....

Holy crap, no need to get your knickers in a twist people. I mean seriously "show me an imac that can do that"? why? I'm not even a mac user, who bought macs into this?

People regularly ask me advice about PCs (I haven't got the time or inclination to custom build people's PCs for them anymore), so I show them what's available, show them how I use what I have and so on.

Invariably, we'll settle on a decent mid-range model that would suit their needs perfectly.

Unfortunately, when they actually go ahead and purchase something, they get drawn towards cheap crap, and end up with a paperweight with vista home basic on it. I've seen this, ooh, around 20 or so times by now. Anyway, point is, people ARE buying home basic, intentionally or not.

"dynamic RAID" ok, what I meant is the facility to create "soft"RAID right from windows dynamic volumes.

Apart from those duped into buying super-cheap PCs, I also know a lot of folk using RAID. Mostly (well, almost exclusively) gamers, video editors, and geek enthusiasts.

Right now, you can't use the windows drive management to create RAID, like you could in XP prof., that virtually all these particular users were used to, unless you've got Vista ultimate.

My reasonings for the other two is a bit more tenuos

I honestly believe that full PC backup should be included in the core OS, and not in a "top-end" version. I don;t understand why we have a glorified NTbackup, AND the full system backup.

As for the bitlocker features? Again, I just don't see why any feature should be dropped - If we don't use a feature, we don't use it.

By your rationalisation, MS should ship several versions of word, with, for example, graphics toolbar, table toolbar, paper size selection (who uses anything except A4?) taken out of it, just to "please" it's userbase. That's crap.

Me, I'm not as opposed to Vista Home Basic as some.  I see it as the logical successor to XP on low-powered Netbooks and Nettops.  It's the Windows-Alternative-Alternative.  Vista without the extra media features such as DVD support and Media Center - 2 totally unnecessary components on systems designed for internet services and lacking optical drives.  Load up Windows Live, and you've got a nice Windows computer that gives you a more modern, more secure platform for web services than XP.  Aero in Vista Home Premium is just gravy, but small UMPC-style devices still can't do it.

Oh yeah, sorry, the user account I mentioned was the local security policy - or whatever the hell it's called - snapin. (hey, english ain't my first language, so sue me.)

Why isn't that in home premium?

gorath, the OS X portion of my post was not aimed at you. It was aimed at people who say Windows should have one version because there's one version of OS X. Anyway, read Ed Bott's post that I linked to and you'll see why three versions are required.

Waethorn and shark, seriosu question, what's wrong with using the "n" version for netbooks and the like and ditching home basic?

At least I think that's what it's called, the version for developing markets and countries is how it used to be marketed.

and shark, the OSX retort wasn't aimed at you, it was for Waethorn, who completely flipped his lid, and assumed I was an i-hole back then.

"By your rationalisation, MS should ship several versions of word, with, for example, graphics toolbar, table toolbar, paper size selection (who uses anything except A4?) taken out of it, just to "please" it's userbase. That's crap."

Maybe, but they ship different versions of Office, you know? Not everyone can afford Office Ultimate and not everyone needs all the software that it comes with. In fact, they even have a version of Office for people that like white computers with a lighted fruity logo and OS X installed.

"Waethorn and shark, seriosu question, what's wrong with using the "n" version for netbooks and the like and ditching home basic?"

I don't like their naming convention anyway. Microsoft has the habit of coming up with the worst possible names. Windows 7 is a good start. I hope they continue this simplicity with the product versions, instead of something like Windows 7 Home Basic Netbooks. Something tells me they won't.

gorath

The "n" versions are not the developing market versions, they're the "exactly the same except without Media Player" versions that were created at the "request" of the EU so that people would have the option of a version of Windows that wouldn't make them suffer with owning a Microsoft media player.

The version I suspect you're thinking of is Windows Vista Starter which is only sold in certain developing countries. It has restrictions that would probably really chafe somebody who was used to a full modern OS. For example, a limit of three open applications (that have a UI) and limits on networking, maximum disk size, maximum processor speed and maximum RAM. In exchange for those limitations it's sold for very, very little as a way to get PCs into developing nations usually in concert with their governments subsidizing the hardware and providing education programs.

shark47

"In fact, they even have a version of Office for people that like white computers with a lighted fruity logo and OS X installed."

Nonsense.

It's not a version of Office specific to people that like white computers with a lighted fruity logos running OS X. It's also good for people that like aluminum computers with lighted fruity logos running OS X.

"Ed Bott's post that I linked to and you'll see why three versions are required"

Technically that is total BS.  Windows 2008 is Vista.  In Windows 2008, or Windows Server 2008 if Mike wants to be picky, it installs bare bones.  You have no real features, until you add them.  You add them by adding "Roles" and "Features".  Believe it or not one of those "Features" is called "Desktop Experience" and turning it on gives you Aero, Sidebar, Media Center, Photo Gallery...etc.  This is intended for Terminal Server users but its just the consumer stuff in Vista.

www.tech-recipes.com/.../windows_server_2008_install_desktop_experience_vista_theme

The point is, Vista could have one version and a business or user could choose not to have all that stuff if they wanted to.  In a corporate environment you would just deploy it with out whatever you decided you did not need, and if you are even a half ass admin your users wont be able to do anything about it.

Lots of people have complained about the fact that there are so many versions and the confusion it causes.  I have seen small businesses that tried to save a buck by buying a "$400" acer only to realize the could not join the domain they paid someone to setup.

The only argument there is is Microsoft loosing either dominance by forcing higher prices on PC vendors with Ultimate only or taking the hit them selves and loosing some revenue.  Its like Microsoft licensing totally over complicated.  

I just cant see to many people complaining if they had 1 version that had all of the features that you could turn on or off if you have permission to do so.  KISS always works.

Again, READ Ed Bott's post, please. READ it. It's obvious from your rant that you haven't. By the way, how many Joe plumbers buy Windows Server 2008?

bettieblu

Actually, your whole post is what is "total BS"

Windows Server 2008 is NOT the same as Windows Vista. Microsoft giving users a price break on features they don't need isn't a conspiracy. And somebody owning a company that runs a Domain Server ought to have somebody on staff supporting such a complex managed environment so I don't buy your charming anecdote. I suppose next you'll say they also buy whatever ink cartridge is cheapest and expect it to fit in their printer.

Oh, and it's "losing" not "loosing". They're different words and mean different things.

And if KISS works so well, why didn't you jump right in supporting my suggestion that Apple get rid of those confusing hardware choices by killing the Mac Mini and iMac so they'd only have one desktop (8 core Mac Pro with 30" Cinema Display) and killing the Mac Book and Mac Book Air so they'd only have one laptop (Mac Book Pro with all the option). Sure would stop all that confusion you seem to have.

I read it.  He states there are two real reasons.  

1.  Price for PC vendors with a list of what he guesses they are paying for different version of Vista now.  His theory is that the price for one version would be $90 more than the lowest version, driving the cost of that $400 Acer everyone loves up to $490.

I think if MS had one version they would save a bundle on all of the work, records, packaging, support etc that come with having so many versions.

2. How to separate consumer and business features.  That is what I explained, with my Windows 2008 points.

Maybe you should READ my post again.  I am not suggesting anyone buy Windows Server 2008 I am saying that Vista and 2008 server are same OS/Kernel and Microsoft has shown via 2008 that its possible to start with a stripped down version (Home Basic) and add features until you get the full deal (Ultimate) all in one package.  Not only is it doable, but they give you some serious fine grain control over it.

Perhaps its above you technical pay grade and you just don't get it.

bettieblu

You seriously think that "all of the work, records, packaging, support etc that come with having so many versions" of Vista would allow Microsoft to sell them all for the price of Home Basic?

And you're telling other people that anything is above their technical pay grade?

That's really funny.

"Microsoft ad agency screwed up and posted a wrong picture on one page of their website which Microsoft apologized for and pulled after it had been up for less than a week in October 2002."

Posted the wrong picture? What sort of an excuse is that? They are supposedly telling the real life story of a happy switcher from Mac to PC (they don't exist BTW), and they "posted a wrong picture". Do you actually believe that? They got a stock photo of some stranger and used that. That's lying. That's deception. That's Microsoft.

Holy cow! It's now official. Microsoft fanboys are the worst, most annoying, most blind of all groups of fanboys.

"2. How to separate consumer and business features.  That is what I explained, with my Windows 2008 points."

Yes, and it proves that you don't get it. A componentized  OS is where Windows is headed anyway, but being a software company, they cannot afford to charge only $20 for the base OS  and provide everything as a free add-on. Again, Apple is a hardware company and can even afford to sell its OS for nothing because they make the money on the hardware anyway. Microsoft can not. Is that too difficult for you to understand or are you simply playing dumb? Let me repeat it: Apple is a hardware company. Microsoft is not.

So, Microsoft will have to end up charging for each software component, but because most consumers don't pay separately for the OS and it comes preinstalled on the PC, people will complain. And you guys (yes, the Mac guys) will make a big deal about how Microsoft doesn't treat its customers well and so on...

Perhaps stupidity is above my pay grade.

"Holy cow! It's now official. Microsoft fanboys are the worst, most annoying, most blind of all groups of fanboys."

Official? What are you, an Apple PR guy?

From Ed Bott's article:

"Currently, Microsoft has a tiered pricing system for Windows. For OEM copies sold with a new PC (and remember, that’s how 9 out of 10 copies are sold), that price is buried in the cost of the system and isn’t broken out. But for the sake of argument, here are my best estimates of how much each Windows Vista edition adds to the cost of a new PC:

Home Basic $20

Home Premium $60

Business $130

Ultimate $190

Microsoft brings in a steady stream of revenue from this current mix, revenue that is the biggest part of its bottom line. If you were to replace those four editions with a single edition for a single price, my back-of-the-envelope calculation says the new price would have to be in the neighborhood of $90. That would add $70 to the cost of entry-level PCs, many of which are currently being sold to budget -conscious businesses with Vista Home Basic. For a $400 bare-bones PC, that’s a 17.5% price increase. Yikes!

The good news is that this pricing scheme would mean a price reduction for those currently choosing Vista Business and XP Pro. In other words, big business would pay less. As far as I’m concerned, anyone who calls for a single edition of Windows is advocating reverse socialism, a transfer of costs to consumers and small businesses from large corporations. I vote no on that proposal."

I'm not the one calling you a socialist here, bettie. Don't shoot the messenger.

@shark47: "Official? What are you, an Apple PR guy?"

Did you ask the same thing of Paul when he titled a post "It's official: Apple jumps the shark" Did you ask, "What are you Paul, a Microsoft PR guy?" (which he essentially is) No, of course not. Your an MS fanboy like he is. Be fair about things when you comment.

Oh Mike you kill me.  Open a command prompt on Vista SP1 and then on Windows SERVER 2008, what version do you see?  Let me just cut to the chase for you, 6.0.6001  Effing amazing they are the same!!  Vista Pre SP1 was 6000 or as I like to refer to it Windows 2008 RC2.

So yes genius they are the same.  Microsoft has been doing that since NT.  2008 can load every feature of Vista, and Vista could if Microsoft allowed it to be, bolt on the same stuff that 2008 does like DHCP, DNS, DFS etc.  Just look at the reliability monitor, the control panel, the icons etc its all the same.  You can subscribe to/forward event logs of another computer with what two operating systems made by MS, Vista and 2008.

Maybe its above your technical pay grade???

I did not say the could sell it for the same price.  I repeated what Bott said, IT WOULD COST $90 more.

Would having one version save Microsft money?  With out a doubt.  It would save all of their vendors as well.  Having all of those Vista skews that have to be tracked in a database at MS, Dell, HP, Acer, Toshiba, Bestbuy, CompUSA, Office Max and on and on and on.  Go to Dell or any other hardware site to download a driver, and someone at those places has to break up the Versions and track them.  Packaging, DVD's, boxes, documentation, knowledge base articles, testing new software and hardware, web sites that explain the version differences, sales material....all of it could be vastly reduced with one version.  Would it save enough money to make up for the higher price of the single OS?  Probably not.  Then again maybe you just pass that cost along to your vendors, or meet them halfway since one version makes their life easier in many ways.

Thats not even mentioning that all versions of Vista probably have the same bits, just they are crippled in various ways if the are not the ultimate version.  Which means that MS has turned off features and has given you no choice to turn them on unless you pay for them, so again it can technically be done.

To your comment about someone owning a Domain, please I worked for a firm that specialized in SBS2000/2003 that supported small companies for 4 years.  A law firm would drop 10k on just hours of implementation of a SBS2003 server and 10 clients, plus the cost of a new server from Dell and MS software.  Then latter on want a notebook or new PC and then you quote them through their Dell account and they dont like the price.  Next thing you know they are calling you up to setup a PC they just bought the night before at Bestbuy that has XP home or Vista Premium on it, all proud they got it cheaper than the quote you gave them, only to be told they need to upgrade the OS because we cant join it to the domain.  These are not large corporations where IT actually has a say on what goes on.  You give them advice and often it goes in one ear and out the other.  They learn fast after a few times.

Honestly Mike I admire you.  Most everyone that posts here cant stand your arrogant, pompous, know it all ass and yet you keep coming back for more.  If you have a wife, either your are the most PW guy on the planet, or your wife is being considered for saint hood by the Pope as I type.

Shark....I am not going to even waste my time.

"I'm not the one calling you a socialist here, bettie. Don't shoot the messenger."

Ok jackass I wont shoot the messenger:)

@robertsjoe - "Holy cow! It's now official. Microsoft fanboys are the worst, most annoying, most blind of all groups of fanboys."

Actually, you are wrong...the extremists on both sides are equally annoying. You with your incessant whining about something that you admit you don't like. Lindy and Ocean with the equally annoying random posts about little snippets that they seem to think shine a bad light on Microsoft.

@mikegalos - if you'd like a couple of examples of your arrogance see above, where you type;

"First off, what's Windows 2008?" - I am pretty sure you know what the poster was talking about.

"Oh, and it's "losing" not "loosing". They're different words and mean different things." - Its a typo...but again, I think that you knew that. In fact, you had your own here - "...killing the Mac Book and Mac Book Air so they'd only have one laptop (Mac Book Pro with all the option)." Look for the missing s.

Oh, and just because I know that you insist on it...please source the following information or retract it - "Microsoft ad agency screwed up and posted a wrong picture on one page of their website which Microsoft apologized for and pulled after it had been up for less than a week in October 2002."

Hell, I think that DRWAM and I are the only ones that add any balance to these discussions...because neither of us is blinded by an illogical passion for an operating system. We use what we like and what gets the job done for the task at hand. It just happens that we find uses for or enjoy parts of both Windows and OS X.

Its Friday night and I just got done monitoring a deployment...vacation time starts now. Don't get too out of hand over the next week...Doc, just keep reminding them of that cheap Acer you bought and subsequently caused me to recommend to my sister and your Mac Pro and iPhone. It sounds like you enjoy them all!

--tayme

"Your an MS fanboy like he is."

What the heck does that even mean? Do I own something called "an MS fanboy like he is"? No, actually, I don't.

BTW, no I didn't ask Paul. Paul probably has a tad bit more credibility than an anonymous poster on a blog site, don't you think? Moreover, when you make an assertion like that and add the word "official" to it, you probably need to provide some kind of proof to back it up. "I said so" is not proof.

"Shark....I am not going to even waste my time..."

is another way of saying, I don't have anything... BS all you want, bettie. You're just another arrogant and pompous Mac fanatic who thinks he has answers to everything. Your arrogance does not hide your lack of knowledge. Idiot.

"Ok jackass I wont shoot the messenger:)"

Fair enough, ***. :-)

"Fair enough, ***. :-)"

That was A$$h0le, in case you didn't get it. Note the smiley. It was a joke. Just like the Mac ads.

On topic or whatever the topic of discussion is:

It makes more sense for MS to separate the consumer and business OSs, because the needs are totally different. In fact, I don't think businesses even need Aero glass effects.  Ed Bott explains clearly (in a very non-snarky manner) why a$90 OS would amount to socialism. I do agree with Bott that the demarcation was not done well in Vista and appears arbitrary. Also, I think the naming convention was atrocious.

tayme, you're probably right. I probably wouldn't be commenting here otherwise and definitely wouldn't waste a Friday night trying to reason with fanatics. I probably should ignore remarks from people like bettie, robert, lindy, ocean, and drylight, among others. There are users like john, who are at least usually more reasonable.

The problem with arguing with fanatics is that because they refuse to cede ground, you too hate to concede points to them. So, instead of being a discussion, it's more of a shout fest, where each side tries to out yell the other. (Think Hannity vs. Olbermann.)

I'm usually more reasonable and have purchased Apple's products in the past (even an iPod Touch recently, that I like). :-) I do realize that people like bettie and robertsjoe won't see reason and should probably stop trying to forece them to do so. It only makes me stoop to their level.

"BTW, no I didn't ask Paul. Paul probably has a tad bit more credibility than an anonymous poster on a blog site, don't you think"

Paul saying that "It's Official, Apple has jumped the shark" is no more credible than me saying something else is official. His statement is baseless and immeasurable.

@shark47: See reason? The Windows fanboys commenting here and in other blogs are the most unreasonable and unrealistic around. Blinded by the Borg.

Sorry, last post for the day. :-)

Mike has more knowledge than all of these jokers put together. I think it's the same problem where you want to respond to each and every anti-MS comment made by some rabid fanatics here. You too should probably try and ignore some of them. As Mark Twain once said  -- or maybe it was a saying in Texas -- "Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

Just a suggestion. No offense meant.

Tayme

"Oh, and just because I know that you insist on it...please source the following information or retract it - "Microsoft ad agency screwed up and posted a wrong picture on one page of their website which Microsoft apologized for and pulled after it had been up for less than a week in October 2002.""

The source is the CNet article link that robertsjoe posted as proof that "Microsoft are liars and thieves."

Guess you didn't follow the link and just jumped to the assumption that the MS Fanboy was lying.

And, apparently, you think an accurate quote with an incorrect picture on a website for a few days six years ago and pulled when the error was known and apologized for when the error was known is a worse failing than a multi-year, multimillion dollar smear campaign, too, since I don't see you objecting to the charge that "Microsoft are liars and thieves" as a characterization for the screw up...

@mikegalos: It was not a an error or mistake. It was on purpose. You don't put someone's supposed true switcher story and put someone else's photo on there. It's deceitful. There's no excuse for it. They pulled it because they got caught out. The same thing happened when they stole an Apple icon and used it on one of their websites. They pulled it when they got caught. Thing's like that are not honest mistakes, or errors. It's stealing.

actually robertsjoe (or whatever your real name is since you insist that public statements carry the same weight as a driver's license and I doubt your license says robertsjoe), using stock images with testimonials is not only not stealing it's also common practice in advertising. My parents, for example, did some modeling for a photographer who wanted stock footage with keywords music and couple and senior for his book. Their picture was used in an ad over someone elses endoresment for some product.

Just thought I'd correct your accusation that a crime had been committed.

Now, libel, such as saying your competitor stopped doing maintenance work on an ongoing commercial product when they'd done noting of the sort (see the topic of this thread) is an actual crime. Whether Apple is guilty is a matter for the courts should Microsoft feel it's worth pressing charges.

See the difference. One is a violation of the law, the other is somebody you hate doing something you don't like making you angry. And, contrary to your apparent view, your likes and dislikes do not contstitute the law in any jurisdiction I'm aware of.

Oh, and whether it was a mistake or intentional is something you'd only know if you were on the team at the ad agency that screwed up. Were you?

I have to wish that SP2 *really* fixes Vista color management this time. I'd love my clients (whose computers I do a lot of my work on) to be able to finally migrate to Vista from XP on their Windows boxes.

"I am pretty sure you know what the poster was talking about."

It's always the greatest (as in the most idiotic) tactic to use: when you're proven wrong in a discussion, pretend you're stupid. After a while you can stop pretending and it still works.

"Mike has more knowledge than all of these jokers put together."

You might be right. It just doesn't really come through in his posts. Reading these blog comments I can't find another poster who's wrong or twists the truth as often as Mike. Maybe he just says what you want to hear? I have to admit he's great at Googling, though :)

As I wrote yesterday, he's yet to admit Apple has ever produced anything good or that Microsoft has ever produced anything bad. I have to assume his religion forbids it.

A couple of points here.

I believe the SP2 has a nice start and it will be interesting to see what happens when we get to the RTM version. Like all operating systems, whether it be Apple or Microsoft, the OSes are works in progress that are constantly evolving.

I've been watching this tit for tat over Vista and its various version. To some degree, I kind of agree that with Vista, Microsoft went overboard with the multiple SKUs. That I will not defend. However, one thing I've really noticed about some consumers, is that many don't bother to do research and homework before making computer purchases. Instead of blaming Microsoft for connecting to certain work domains, how about taking some personal responsibilty as a consumer? The information on every OS has been published for awhile now. Instead of just walking into a store blindly, take a few mintues to educate yourself on the pros and cons of what you're about to buy? I've noticed the best consumers are the ones who up their IQ on the products before they walk in the store. There are so many ways to do this. People research before they buy cars. The same goes buying a home.

Whether you walk into Fry's or the Apple Store, a lot of those guys don't know jack. Apple Store guys constantly and unfairly blame Windows for somethings that are vendor driver issues. Its becoming a tired and irrelevant argument. Fry's people are just as clueless but on occassion I've run into someone who knows a thing or two. However, since most sales persons are intelligently educated enough on their products, its really up to the consumer to make wise decisions.

I also disagree with simplifying Windows down to two versions. Both Microsoft and Apple go out of their way to cater to the average user. The problem becomes that how do you really define average? Its like trying to define normal. One person's normal setup might be the next guys abnormal setup. Yes, there are plenty of studies about what the average user does. I believe its the diversity of setup that is one of Window's key strength. The Server Versions are now pretty much their own exclusive lines. However, I do think it does need to be simplified to a Consumer, Business, and a Superset of both lines. 3 simple SKU's. You could go Home, Professional, Ultimate. Within the 3 SKU frame work, you could activate features such as Windows Media Center, Internet Explorer, Windows Media Player, etc.

Since we are talking about a Service Pack, which also deals with vulnerabilities and bug fixes, I noticed a rather interesting fact from Secunia.com. For just this year in 2008, OS-X has 794 vulnerabilties. Windows Vista in 2008 has had only 71. Yet we have all these people claiming quite dubiously that OS-X is a superior operating system, yet the facts seem to indicate that it has the most problems? I ran across it today, as I frequently check with Secunia to the the state of the OS. Also, Secunia is reporting for 2008, 46 Vista Advisories compared with 124 for OS-X.

There's no dout that Apple really does some great things. OS-X has some tremendous strengths. I would be quite comfortable using one. If I didn't have to take a loan out, I'd would definitely purchase one. We honestly know about the real and genuine issues with Vista and XP. But seriously, this cannot be understated. Tiger and Leopard are looking like XP and 2000 a few years ago. Tiger and Leopard being patch at a more frequent rate, for some really fundamental problems that have never been tolerated on the Microsoft side. Yet Apple still has a culture of quiet, no beta programs, and a disturbing base that makes me question their humanity or their values. I really do love a lot of the services and products that come out of Culpertino. I've been using a lot of the software, computers, and consumer products for awhile now. I just want them to admit their base needs a reality check, many of the products need a restart from scratch, and that they need to be more forthcoming.

Other than that, I have tremendous respect and love for Apple. Maybe this economic downturn will force them to make a consumer line favorable to the working class. Probably not, but a guy can always dream.

@mikelags: I did not say that the stock photo was stealing. Microsoft stole an icone from Apple and used it on one of their website talking about Vista Business Edition. When they got caught, they replaced it. That's stealing.

If you think putting up an ad portraying someone as a real user, telling their real switcher story,  but using someone else's photo is OK, then we have different sets of morals and standards. It's deceitful. You're saying this person is saying this, and don't forget that they are saying that what she is saying is real, yet use someone else's photo? Not OK with me.

Ok, let's take a breather for a sec, shall we?...

If a company came up with a UMPC-style handheld device with a slider keyboard, a 1024x600 screen (no touchscreen becuz it's added expense), a trackpointer/pad or some other pointing device, and a copy of Vista Home Basic (and Windows Live) on it, I would buy it in a second.  Obviously such a device would be made for a cheaper market because R&D as well as licensing costs for Vista HB would help to drastically reduce building costs.  I wouldn't care if it "looked cheap and plastic'y" cuz you know what? - It's a fully capable computer, not a "mobile platform" with different software.  I sometimes look at the simplicity of devices like the Palm Z series and wonder why a company can't come up with a UMPC like that, to enter the low-cost consumer mass-market.  Heck, put a cheap Atom in there and you could run FULL Office on the thing, and load any browser you damn well wanted....Media?  No problem.  Load any codec you want - it's Windows Vista after all.

And guess what - there is no special development tracks that software writers need to take.  (If the iPhone actually used "OS X" as we know it, why can't developers just recompile their desktop apps - it turns out it isn't, so they can't)

That would be my dream handheld computer.

Phone support is just icing after that.

Good morning! Yep I love all my tech toys, except my Palm stuff. Palm stuff is definitely unreliable with constant need of reset.

I was able to use the Pro Tower with work because of Leopard and Vista. This site encouraged me to use it and not fear it. Mike really inspired me to fully use Exchange, which led to interest in the iPhone [purchased as a present by my wife], and Exchange related stuff as well as Windows Live, which has some really useful stuff. I think that I saw only one Live ad...I think. MS should promote it more, even if some stuff is beta, since I remember some phone company ad showing tablets and stuff that never emerged or did so years later. Tom Selleck narrated them. Live has great features.

Either way, there is balance in both platforms, especially with Office and Exchange. Lastly, I truly like Entourage and Outlook. One program with many needed features is very useful.

Pingback from  Dew Drop - October 25, 2008 | Alvin Ashcraft's Morning Dew

@mikegalos - One last post before getting on a plan for vacation...Sorry, you were right...I didn't read the entire article from the cnet site this time. You are right, the part about the ad agency using a stock photo is in there. It is in hte paragraph that starts out - "Although the ad appears to be from a "real person," similar to the Apple campaign, Microsoft said it commissioned the posting from a freelance writer who was paid for her work, although the company claims her experience was genuine."  As far as it being an accurate quote, again, you are right. But it is an accurate quote from a paid for comment. Maybe not an outright lie...but it must be taken with a grain of salt. I am of the belief that nearly all companies lie or at least twist the truth or pay someone to tout the benefits of their products in their adverts to get the sale. I don't like that Apple refuses to discuss their OS in their ads, but instead talk about the competition.

Your arrogance still remains....and I am guessing it always will. You simply refuse to admit that a person can find a reason to use any OS other than Windows...and regardless of your intelligence, this is something that makes you come across as a narrow minded MS fanboy that is ignorant in many ways not related to Microsoft. You know the old saying, "Book smart, but people stupid", that's you in a nutshell.

--tayme

Oh, man...I hope I am typing this before mikegalos sees that I made a typo in my post above...It is time to get on a plane for vacation....not a plan. I did the planning part over the last couple of months. I hope I didn't confuse you too much there, mikegalos!

--tayme

tayme, my mother is here for a few days and just mentioned [a few minutes ago] about a report that many 'green' products are really not eco-safe or green at all. And how many times did you read 'New', 'Improved', or 'New and Improved' and it wasn't. I compared ingredients of an old bottle of cleaner to the new improved bottle and they were exactly the same. I guess they meant the bottle itself, not the contents.

If you look at all the safety features that auto maker count, they will include things like each door lock and stuff like that too. Th new Saturn Vue has 126 safety features or 126 new safety features, but wouldn't have any room for passengers if they didn't count each airbag or similar obvious nonsense. For the record, I quickly reviewed a list but cannot remember the exact feature, so I'm using my examples, which may be an extreme, but certainly in the same realm.

"Maybe he just says what you want to hear?"

Well, I don't agree with him on everything - especially Apple and innovation and I've pointed it out in the past too. See, I like some of Apple's products. I just don't like this idea of picking on MS to sell products, especially when much of it is based on FUD. I agree with Paul that the ads have gone too far.  

Regarding the MS ad, why is that even relevant? That was six years ago. Six years ago. Why is that being used as justification for Apple's ads?  In any case, there's a huge difference - Microsoft was publicly criticized for those ads and the company apologized. See? Most Mac fanatics see the world as black and white. It's the good Apple vs. the evil Microsoft. "But Microsoft is evil" is a used as justification for any of Apple's eggheaded moves. Note this the next time Apple does something stupid. Someone will bring up something Microsoft did twenty years ago.

"They did it too" is the worst possible defense that you can come up with. Try using it with a cop the next time you're speeding.

Also, nice post there, subzero!

Doc, you wrote an entire post without mentioning the $400 laptop? Wow!! ;)

tayme

A couple of things before you go on vacation...

If you read back, you'll find I never say people don't have reasons for using Apple products. They have benefits that are the best choice in some cases. But I don't think they're divinely inspired perfection that should be treated as religious icons.

Apple the company, on the other hand, has been acting like they actually deserve to be on that pedestal and treat their user and developers horribly and that I consider valid for criticism.

In fact, if anything, I hold Apple to the level they deserve. For a time, they were the industry leaders in innovation. It's been a long time and I hold them to one of two behaviors: Start innovating and driving the industry forward as they used to in the 1980s or stop acting as though they're the same company that did Lisa, Macintosh and Laserwriter. I'd prefer the former but I'll sadly accept the latter. Right now, they're a mediocre has been that acts as though they're ready for their close up.

As for the spelling error, I almost never criticize typos. I do only in the few cases where a word is commonly used in place of another. An example is using loose for lose. It's a pet peeve and a personal flaw but I don't do it that often so I'll live with it.

DRWAM

On the NEW & IMPROVED cleaner, maybe the part that was actually new and improved was their manufacturing technology that lets them go an extra day between cleaning the bottle molds. And, for some bizarre reason, they think you, as a customer, would care about their internal manufacturing process rather than whether it cleaned better.

You know, kind of like proudly telling the world for twenty minutes at a press conference that you've stopped using stampings and switched to milled aluminum castings to fix a flexing problem that nobody thought was an issue.

Yep, I hear ya. Look at this:

www.smarthome.com/slcsolution66.html

If every home in America replaced just one incandescent light bulb with an ENERGY STAR qualified CFL, in one year it would save enough energy to light more than 3 million homes. That would prevent the release of greenhouse gas emissions equal to that of about 800,000 cars.  Saving electricity reduces CO2 emissions, sulfur oxide and high-level nuclear waste.

"Right now, they're a mediocre has been that acts as though they're ready for their close up."

That's weird. Don't you really see anything innovative about iPhone? To me, iPhone represents what the word innovation means. The future of computing moving more and more into our pockets now for the first time really seems viable.

And since we're talking about words, let's make clear what innovation is: it's taking an existing idea or a technology and applying it in an original, successful way. iPhone, with all its flaws, really fits this bill - no new features, just new ways to make use of them.

subzero

"However, I do think it does need to be simplified to a Consumer, Business, and a Superset of both lines. 3 simple SKU's. You could go Home, Professional, Ultimate."

Which is why I really have a problem with people acting as though there were dozens of SKUs.

You suggest there be 3 SKUs. Let's name the Business one "Business" rather than "Professional" since that name might confuse people since XP Professional was a home SKU and not a business SKU.

That leave us with Home, Business and Ultimate as your ideal.

Right now at US Retail Microsoft has: Home (basic), Home (premium), Business and Ultimate.

That's 4 rather than 3. And the only difference between what has been shipped for over two years now and what you propose as the ideal is dropping Home Basic from the line.

That's it. One SKU dropped is the difference between what you say is ideal (and I'd tend to agree) and what you said was Microsoft going overboard and that you couldn't defend.

To be fair, there are other SKUs that come up in conversation that shouldn't even be an issue since they aren't something that a consumer should even care about. Let's look...

Windows Vista Starter - only sold in the developing world and not at retail

Windows Vista Enterprise - only sold through the direct sales channel as part of a corporate licensing agreement

Windows Vista "(n)" editions - only offered (and rarely sold) in the EU nations as part of anti-trust compliance

OEM editions - shouldn't be offered at retail to anyone but an actual system builder and identical in features to the equivalent retail versions.

Mum

We're talking about computers in this thread. Not iPods or iPhones or mouse pads.

Do you really think that Macintosh 2008 reflects the same company and innovation as Macintosh 1984 or Lisa or Laserwriter?

Mike,

First, on the 11 listed Vista versions. It's just crazy to have that many. Even PAUL has said that.

Second, on this bitable

"Working with political groups I've seen examples of anti-Semitism in towns where nobody is Jewish and racism in towns so ethnically uniform you wonder if they'd freak out at a person with a good tan. Are you saying they're getting their bigotry based on an existing perception?"

You're getting pretty close to the "Nazi limit" of usenet discussions. See Godkins law: en.wikipedia.org/.../Godwins_law. Going so far down that road is a sure sign that you need to lighten up a bit.

Finally, on this part,

"As an example, how about if I spend say a million dollars paying people to say that you are a clueless bozo on every message board they can find? How much do you want to bet that by the third or fourth time they see a message about you they'll consider the first couple to be the "already widespread" stereotype. If you like, I'll have them say it as a joke about you being a clueless bozo and then defaming your character will be OK by your rules since it's comedy."

Feel free. I'm sure you'll find a couple of fellow travelers here who'll go along with the "clueless bozo" part :) . On some things, I definitely AM a clueless bozo, but I try to make no pretensions in those areas.

However, in spite of trying this gambit to get a sharp response from me, you know it's a phony argument, because what you will NOT find are dozens or hundreds of independent commentators who  all separately and without collusion write that I'm a clueless bozo.

However, you will find that independent commentary about Vista. There are hundreds, possibly thousands of such references on the internet. You want to deny that reality and blame it all on Apple. That's nonsense.

In trying to avoid being a clueless bozo, let me make it clear that I don't know if the perception of Vista is correct or not. No idea. That the percpetion exists, is widespread and wasn't caused by Apple is obvious to everyone except you.

chuck

Actually, if you read my post, I said that calling you a clueless bozo was an example of an unfair characterization used to defame you. Quite clearly I was saying that it was NOT true. Which is my point.

And, note that in your post you never disagreed with my point. You don't need an "already widespred" stereotype to base defamation. You can create it out of nothing and people will believe it even with no existing knowledge or prejudice.

I think consumers are smart enough to pick a needed Vista version, so there are not too many. Also, what ever is pre-installed at their price point is what they will get any way, and probably not even care that there are several SKU's. For a business, the hardware and software will be scrutinized by a knowledgeable person who will fulfill the needs of the company and staff. I am reasonably sure that they won't get confused. Offering a less expensive version also helps consumer wallets [as well as giving 3 licenses when purchasing as they do with some versions of Office]. I personally have not heard of any one confused by the choices of Vista, although it's anecdotal.

chuckb

"First, on the 11 listed Vista versions. It's just crazy to have that many. "

And, in reality, there are only 4 retail versions of Vista. Not 11. Four.

Windows Vista Home Basic

Windows Vista Home Premium

Windows Vista Business

Windows Vista Ultimate

Mike,

On Vista versions, however YOU choose to count, 11 were listed. You also ignored the point that Paul has also said that the number of versions (however you want to count them) is too many. It's confusing, and I don't understand why MS does it. I suspect it is to get people to pay more, but I really don't know. The strategy makes no sense to me.

On this, "In fact, if anything, I hold Apple to the level they deserve. For a time, they were the industry leaders in innovation. It's been a long time and I hold them to one of two behaviors: Start innovating and driving the industry forward as they used to in the 1980s or stop acting as though they're the same company that did Lisa, Macintosh and Laserwriter. I'd prefer the former but I'll sadly accept the latter. Right now, they're a mediocre has been that acts as though they're ready for their close up."

You ignore the iPhone, which is a transformative device. That's obvious, everyone in the world is rushing out copies as fast as they can. Your disclaimer "We're talking about computers in this thread. Not iPods or iPhones or mouse pads." In what sense is the iPhone NOT a computer? The fact that it is a "phone" is almost incidental.

Again, even PAUL has acknowledged the iPhone as a transformative device. I think you're even more a one man band than usual if you want to disregard the iPhone as evidence of Apple's innovation.

In the desktop/laptop/server area, I don't think anyone with sense will disagree that is a pretty mature area. Neither Apple or Microsoft are innovating there at the pace of the mid-1980s. But Apple has defined and owns the portable music biz, and is now redefining "phones" as general purpose portable computing devices. Those are both real innovations, now worth billions a year.

Doc, I think they could have done a better job with the naming, though. Windows Vista Home Basic could have been Windows Vista Base or something. Vista Home Premium could have been Vista Home. Vista Business and Vista Ultimate are fine.

Windows Vista Starter is not even available in the US. Windows Vista N versions aren't either. Vista Enterprise is not for the average Joe anyway.

See, when XP was introduced, XP Home was a true subset of XP Professional. LAter, Microsoft introduced the Tablet PC version and XP MCE. I think Tablet PC was based on Professional, while MCE was based on XP Home. So, technically, XP was a lot more confusing than Vista, especially towards the end of its lifecycle. With Vista they tried to simplify SKUs.  Paul's right that some of the lines between versions were drawn arbitrarily.

I think Mike's right here, but of course, people refuse to listen to him. This is just another M$ fanboy talking according to them.

Shark

No question that the Windows XP versions were MUCH more confusing than Windows Vista. There was good reason for simplifying the number of versions in Vista.

Compared with Vista's four retail versions you had the following with XP some of which were available at retail and some only through OEM. The (n), (k) and (nk) versions were the "take out a feature to make the regulators happy" versions so they really don't matter since nobody bought them.

Windows XP Home

Windows XP Home (n)

Windows XP Home (k)

Windows XP Home (kn)

Windows XP Professional

Windows XP Professional (n)

Windows XP Professional (k)

Windows XP Professional (kn)

Windows XP Starter Edition

Windows XP Media Center Edition

Windows XP Media Center Edition 2003

Windows XP Media Center Edition 2004

Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005

Windows XP Tablet PC Edition

Windows XP Tablet PC Edition 2005

Windows XP 64-bit Edition for Itanium systems, Version 2002

Windows XP 64-bit Editionfor Itanium systems, Version 2003

Windows XP Professional x64 Edition

Strangely, no one complains about having too many Office SKUs.

Anyway, since most people didn't bother to read Ed Bott's article, here's a summary of his argument. If MS decides to go with one Windows version for everyone, first of all, it would have features like MEdiac Center that businesses don't care for and features like BitLocker that the average Joe won't care. Let's assume that you can pick and choose features to add when you buy a new, say, Dell --even though that would add another level of complexity for consumers, which they probably won't appreciate-- there's another problem, Microsoft can't afford to charge OEMs just $20 for the install, so let's say they charge a flat $90 instead. Businesses will either end up paying less or won't be affected. Home users will pay more for a PC (because OS costs are transferred to the consumer) and so will small businesses that choose the cheapest versions of Windows. Guess who will be the first to accues Microsoft of fleecing end users ... yup, the very same Mac users who probably wouldn't buy a PC anyway and who call for one version of Windows now.

Three versions, Windows 7 Home, Windows 7 Business, and Windows 7 Ultimate are good enough. Maybe the Home Basic version should be renamed Windows 7 Core or something.

shark

"Guess who will be the first to accues Microsoft of fleecing end users ... yup, the very same Mac users who probably wouldn't buy a PC anyway and who call for one version of Windows now. "

While they might not buy a PC anyway, they might very well want to buy a copy of Vista to run on their beloved Macs which, I suspect, is why their arguments eventually drift to dropping the price of Full Package Product Vista Ultimate rather than what features should be in Home Basic versus Home Premium.

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