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Haha.. the flood gates open! I hope MS would bring benefits more tangible to the user than just UI and UX  niceties. Many of these improvements would eventually and inevitably be implemented or improved  by third party apps (which is the beauty of the Windows ecosystem), but things like OS core could only be improved by MS. Hope they will distinguish Win7 from Vista enough to warrant a new upgrade/replacement cycle for most XP or Vista users. Otherwise, I would rather them give out 7 as a complete overhaul of Vista.. aka Vista SE.

There has always been a proud tradition of bringing elements of one OS to another. I've had programs that replicated everything from Windows 95, when I had only Win 3.11, System 7, NEXT, BeOS, XP, Vista, and God knows what else!

Right now I'm already using an Aero theme on my XP machines, and will play with these programs on my Vista box.

Doesn't this amount to "lipstick on a pig"?

Aero Snap is nice and quite useful on my Vista Machine. Especially left and right docking of windows is by far the easiest and most convenient way of placing two windows side by side.

The Aero Shake lookalike, on the other hand, is not well done. Apart from causing a lot of flicker when restoring the minimized windows to their original size, it also has a real flaw: Sometimes, it restores windows aren't really minimized, but instead display an icon in the notification area of the taskbar. Thus, you may end up restoring more windows than you ever minimized.

I hope (and assume) the original Windows 7 feature works better than that.

MS should have used paint.net in Windows Vista II, er, Windows 7.

http://www.getpaint.net/

I rememembered to take the caps off this post. Is there a public beta for  Windows 7 yet? If so, where can we sign up. I really do wish to test it on the cheapo $400 laptop. I came with the 160GB HD partitioned into two volumes, one labled sytem and the other storage I think, but it's at home right now. Those netbooks seem like a hot item, so the ability to run 7 is a very good move by MS. You could probably see a lot of cheapo hardware running 7 next year. IMO, it will sell very well. Free MS Works and you have about all you need for the road.

Ocean..

Paint.net is mighty fine, but normal Windows users don't need that kind of sophistication.

While we are at it, let's go ahead and recommend that Microsoft replace Sound Recorder application with Audacity. Why not?

"Paint.net is mighty fine, but normal Windows users don't need that kind of sophistication."

Good point. If someone wants paint.net, it's a free download. Paint.net may be good but it's extremely daunting for the average joe.

Quick feature request for Windows 7 relating to the Doc's post:

Allow a user (local admin) to move user data files from volume to volume.  Turning off shadow volume copy on app/OS volumes improves performance, and you don't need it on for those ones**.  You really only need it on data volumes.

This is considered a best practise in SBS 2008.  They should make a wizard in Windows 7 on the client side that lets you move user data stores similar to what's offered in SBS (which is extremely easy too).

**Question for Mike:  Does System Restore use VSS (volume shadow service), or a conventional file backup?

"Doesn't this amount to "lipstick on a pig"?"

No, it's lipstick on a pit bull :)

RaaJ

"I hope MS would bring benefits more tangible to the user than just UI and UX  niceties. "

They have but those are not the features easily cloned from seeing a demo or playing with a pre-beta.

They also don't get much discussion since it's the "shiny things" features that get the initial attention.

Take a look, for instance, at Paul's Windows 7 Feature Focus at www.winsupersite.com/.../ff.asp and you'll see lots of items that are more tangible user benefits than just UI/UX changes.

"Paint.net may be good but it's extremely daunting for the average joe."

Windows Live Photo Gallery suffices for most, thanks.

I wonder if Microsoft will allow partners/OEM's to preload Windows Live Wave 3 on systems.  I don't think it's such a good idea to try and sell a system that doesn't have an email client included out of the box.  The rest is all good too though.  Some partners may want to customize with Firefox/Thunderbird, Adobe PS/Premiere Elements, etc., without implementing redundancies due to pre-bundled accessory apps.  It makes it easier on partners, while also alleviating frustrations on the user due to overlapping software functionality in the software load-out.

Vista uses VSS for system restore.  I would imagine Windows 7 is exactly the same way.

Waethorn

I'm not sure. I've never turned VSS off. I suspect it could be testing in a VM to find out.

"it's lipstick on a pit bull"

http://tinyurl.com/5r3uzx

That's all I have to say about that.

In Windows Vista, System Restore features an improved interface and is based on Shadow Copy technology. In prior Windows versions, it was based on a file filter that watched changes for a certain set of file extensions, and then copied files before they were overwritten.[2] The advantage of using Shadow Copy is that block-level changes in files located in any directory on the volume can be monitored and backed up regardless of their location. [3]

I turned off VSS and it broke system restore.

....and SBS doesn't have System Restore, so it makes sense to recommend it for that.  I didn't know how Windows client does it though.

Still, having the user data move wizard that SBS has would be extremely handy.

shark47

"Doesn't this amount to "lipstick on a pig"? "

Actually, to make the analogy work, it's more like taking a supermodel who just woke up, is having her first cup of coffee and has no makeup on and getting her prepped for the runway.

To follow your analogy, the basic bone structure and genetics of Windows 7 is already there in Windows Vista. After two years of being told that all that matters is makeup and hair styling, Microsoft is putting Vista through a few hours with the stylists and sending her out on the catwalk as Windows 7.

Lots of underestimating the consumer.

Don't you guys criticize Apple for that?

There we go again. It's Ocean again. No surprise there.

Ocean

Actually, if anything, Microsoft tends to overestimate the consumer and think they'll see benefits to underlying architecture without changes to the shiny things rather than Apple that just changes to color of the lipstick every year or two and sells that as innovation.

Ocean.. can't quit trolling, can you? You could have suggested that they included Paint.net, and left it at that. But you had to throw in a flamebait calling Windows Seven as Vista II. Tsk. Tsk.

What is the limit to which you could elevate the sophistication of the bundled applications? Your question does not apply to the criticism of Apple because unlike Apple, Microsoft does not lock in the kind of applications that can be built for Windows (as far as it pertains to the user.)

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Ocean probably doesn't want me to extend the "supermodel without makeup" analogy because comparing OS X to Joan Rivers would be both accurate and painful.

"But you had to throw in a flamebait calling Windows Seven as Vista II. Tsk. Tsk."

Ocean didn't say that. But InfoWorld practically does:

"Overall, Microsoft's pitch was quite compelling, and the PDC crowd was practically salivating at the chance to play with Microsoft's latest and greatest.

"But after the stage props came down, and after the projectors finally went cold, attendees were left with a pre-beta copy of something that looked less like a new OS than the repackaging of an old one.

"As I reported on my Enterprise Desktop blog, the more I dug into Windows 7, the more I saw an OS that looked and felt like a slightly tweaked version of Windows Vista.

"From a raw throughput perspective, Windows 7 promises to perform as poorly as its predecessor. "Pre-beta" notwithstanding, the reality is that any hope for closing of the performance gap with Windows XP is unlikely to materialize in Windows 7.

"Overall, the changes are mostly superficial. Even the new Task Bar is simply a twist on the existing Explorer UI model, not to mention a blatant rip-off of the Mac OS X dock.

"So where does this leave us? For starters, we can now say with some certainty that Windows 7 is in fact just a repackaging of Windows Vista -- an "R2" release, to use Microsoft's nomenclature on the Windows Server side of the house.

"One thing's for sure: Microsoft's once unassailable dominance of the enterprise desktop is wobbling on a precipice. Windows Vista has permanently eroded the company's reputation among IT decision makers, and from what we've seen of Windows 7 so far, Microsoft still does not "get IT.""

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Lotsa

Yeah. Lotsa credibility there. These are, after all, the same people who spent last year in a major media campaign including podcast and web advertising to capture the groundswell of people who wanted to "Save XP"

The end result was their reputation became a joke and they got a small list of Linux and Mac users representing 0.0075% of of the market.

>>if anything, Microsoft tends to overestimate the consumer and think they'll see benefits to underlying architecture without changes to the shiny things<<

So why not give them more powerful software?

Tsk, tsk to the folks who would rather talk about people than about technology.  This is a technology site.

Those asshats at Info World that wrote that quip have to be the most idiotic pandering sell-outs ever. When Apple copies features from other pre-existing technologies but adds improvements, they hail it as 'innovation'. When Microsoft does the same, by improving greatly on the dock functionality of OS X, they are labeled 'rip-off artists'.

Stop peddling that InfoWorld BS here, if you have any intelligence to parse BS propaganda from genuine criticism.

@Mike "wanted to "Save XP"

And they did!  You can still OEM until June of 2009!  I know lots of small companies that WONT touch Vista, and pay Dell $99 per new PC to still get XP.

How many times has the death of XP been pushed back??

I work in IT at a large corporation, 250K + and have friends lots of friends in the corporate world in IT jobs and I dont know ONE of them that says their corporations are moving to Vista.  I think NPD reported that only 4% of Fortune 1000 has moved to Vista.

XP still by a HUGE margin owns the desktop OS in the US or World.

All that said eventually you will have to make the move and for lager corporations the only choice will be Windows 7 if they want AD and all it brings.  Smaller companies might just stick with XP until 2014 or possibly look at OS X or Linux.

Ocean

"So why not give them more powerful software?"

Huh?

The same Windows OS family that runs on your UMPC also runs on huge multiprocessor servers and runs on the 23rd most powerful supercomputer in the world (NCSA's "Abe" supercomputer with 9,600 cores and running over 68 trillion floating point operations per second on the industry standard tests)

Lindy

Windows ALWAYS has a long lifespan of support. I know being a Mac fan that's an alien concept for you where you're expected to upgrade for $129 every time Apple wants a cash infusion from their fans and where supporting 3 year old hardware is considered a favor. (The PowerMac G5 stopped shipping in August 2006 - think SnowLeopard will support it? How about 10.7?)

Remember that Windows for Workgroups 3.11 was finally dropped from the supported list (in that case limited embedded use) less than 2 weeks ago.

"And they did!  You can still OEM until June of 2009!  I know lots of small companies that WONT touch Vista, and pay Dell $99 per new PC to still get XP."

Yeah, sure they did, Lindy. Sure they did.

community.winsupersite.com/.../infoworld-declares-mission-accomplished-in-save-xp-campaign.aspx

Of course, you guys would probably believe Infoworld more than Thurrott, especially because the content on the site is more to your liking.

"Stop peddling that InfoWorld BS here, if you have any intelligence to parse BS propaganda from genuine criticism."

That's not the only site they peddle BS from. It's from any site that supports their agenda. Ocean has once again successfully hijacked this thread. Way to go, trollalot!

"Ocean didn't say that. But InfoWorld practically does"

InfoWorld is just jealous because their reporters were some that didn't get a look at the preloaded Windows 7 laptops that were available in the press room at PDC.  Joe Wilcox was apparently one (he writes for "eWeak", which is part of the same network as InfoWorld).

"So why not give them more powerful software?"

Ya, why not just give them a copy of Photoshop while you're at it.

"for lager corporations the only choice will be Windows 7 if they want AD and all it brings."

WTF does that mean?

Windows Server 2008 includes Active Directory support.  Windows Vista Business/Enterprise/Ultimate will join a domain.

What a stupid comment.

"Smaller companies might just stick with XP until 2014 or possibly look at OS X or Linux."

Nope, that one takes the cake.

@RaaJ

InfoWorld is just representative of the S.S. Titanic that was known as the tech media.

I expect them to disappear, along with PC World, and others in the next 4 years. All of them have replaced honest journalism with pandering, and Gizmodo level "reporting", hoping to look "hip" and somehow win the love of non-Windows users.

Lol Mike you just cant admit that Microsoft has postponed the end of XP sales, because of the poor reception of Vista in the Corporate world.  Your simple minded brain cant register that fact, so you in turn try to label me and bash Apple???  You are so predictable its pathetic.

I know all about Microsoft and its OS life cycles.  Windows 2000 will loose all support in 2010.  Its usually 10 years but at times they extend it, like NT 4.0 was extended, so was Exchange 5.5.  I saw massive upgrades to Windows 2003/Exchange 2003 because of so many organizations never moved to AD and 2000.  I remember when I was at HP's Exchange 2003 Academy training, that head of MS Exchange group told us that only 40% of NT 4.0 domain users migrated to Active Directory and of that only 25% moved to Exchange 2000.  MS had to KILL NT 4.0 and Exchange 5.5 to get people to move off it.

That said that is support only, not sales.  XP was supposed to be cut off as in you cant buy it any where, Dell, HP and others were supposed to stop selling it.  They all, including Info World moaned and wined so much that Microsoft has changed the date a few times, more than I can even keep track of now.  The last I read is its June or July of 2009.  If Paul is right about Windows 7 shipping in June, there might be 30 days where you can still get XP and Windows 7 is shipping!

As far as Apple cutting off the PowerMac G5, I hope they do and fully expect Snow Leopard to be Intel only.

Huh. So now I know Infoworld is part of the iCabal. It's funny, some time back (PowePC days) the Mac people I knew called it IntelWorld, and they never had a nice thing to say about Apple. Some of this may be in the eye of the beholder, then and now.

BTW, I guess we can add Tom Friedman as an icabalist. Read the last paragraph :)

www.nytimes.com/.../12friedman.html

Most of us average users couldn't care less that the next OS is just an improved version or brand new under the hood. We just want it to work. Perhaps an improved version is probably better for us. This goes for both MS and Apple.

Still if MS can still make money on something they created several years ago, bravo! If people are crazy enough to upgrade Mac OS each time a new OS rolls out, bravo for Apple. Us less geeky people won't upgrade. It's those geeks and fanboys that think that they need the latest, greatest. Fortunately for both camps, the economy will probably improve for the next round of upgrades.

Lindy

If you know all about Windows life cycles, then why are you posting such silly stuff? (For example, you probably know that downgrade rights has been a part of Windows licensing for many, many years now)

You kind of have two choices:

1) You really don't have a clue about Windows lifecycles

2) You're just trolling

btw: I agree that Apple is likely to stop supporting G5 based Macintosh computers when Snow Leopard ships. The difference is that I think its pathetic that a company would sell a customer a computer in August 2006 and less than 3 years later say it's obsolete and should be thrown out.

Seriously, buy a "state of the art" Mac Pro at a huge premium with OS X 10.4 and when 10.6 comes out 3 years later you're expected to toss it?

I guess some people will do anything to make sure their pig has the latest colored lipstick.

"or lager corporations the only choice will be Windows 7 if they want AD and all it brings"

In a large corporation its not the desktop OS(Windows) that keeps them buying Windows desktop OS'es.  Its the combination of Active Directory and all that it brings and the desktop OS that fully works with AD.  The vast management of thousands of desktop computers is very complex and AD makes that job possible.  Apple or Linux has nothing that can touch that.  So a large corporation has to choose Windows unless they want to have a management nightmare trying to manage thousands of OS X boxes or Linux boxes.  Sure there are tools to do help with that, but nothing like AD, SCCM, WSUS, and other tools from MS.  Add in the fact that MS keeps making the tools better in the new versions.  Example there were lots of GPO's in Windows XP/2003 server that would not work for Windows 2000, simple stuff like pushing out DNS suffixes to all clients, provided you had a 2003 domain and XP clients.  MS could have easily patched 2000 to do that but they want your upgrade money, or you Software Insurance money.  The same goes for 2008/Vista.  There is no adminpack.msi that will support 2008 servers.  I need to first install Vista and then download RSAT to manage 2008 servers.  MS could make RSAT work on XP.

Now in a small company with 10 computers they could go either way and I have seen it.  They might choose SBS, or just a peer to peer mess.  I have seen a cosmetic surgery office with 15 computers and a server......all OS X.  Up front cost for small companies is usually more important.  They will run XP until its not possible anymore....2014.

I am sorry reality does not fit into your pro-MS SBS, small time Canadian computer store world.

chuck

No, Infoworld used to be a very serious magazine - one of the best resources in the tech world. Then they started having to compete with PCWeek and got their clocks cleaned when Sam Whitmore became Editor i Chief of PCWeek and ZiffDavis started owning the PC trade press.

Later Infoworld learned that they could sell ads based on being controversial and became the voice of the ABM (Anybody But Microsoft) consortium and started being the big backers for "OS/2 will kill Windows" articles (and sold lots of ads to IBM).

When that failed, they just started getting really desperate for readership/hits and gradually became a pretty low grade tabloid.

It's really been pretty sad to watch.

"BTW, I guess we can add Tom Friedman as an icabalist. Read the last paragraph :)

www.nytimes.com/.../12friedman.html"

Well, he likes Apple for its innovation and probably uses a Mac. That's his personal choice unless he goes to Windows sites and tries to get people to switch by trolling. If you want to know what an iCabalist does, think Quixtar (Amway).

DRWAM, What is that $400 laptop you keep mentioning again? may I have some details please?

Well Mike how many times did MS change the end date for Windows 2000 in terms of how long Dell could sell it on a new PC???  Put on your detective hat and let us know.

Is "troll" the best you got for me?  

Downgrade rights are different from what Dell is doing.  Downgrade rights let you buy a CAL or PC with the current OS and then internally replace it with the OLD OS.  With XP/2000 that was quite common.  The key difference is that you COULD NOT buy 2000 anymore but you could legally load it in-house.  You can buy XP today.

What Apple and MS are doing cant really be compared.  First MS does not make hardware.  Second the makers of computers that run Windows are not switching from PPC to X86 or whatever.  The Snow Leopard move is primarily to dump PPC code.  Since Apple controls the OS and the hardware, and all major 3rd party apps have now switched to universal code this is a good move.  Those G5 users will be able to run OS X 10.5.6, .7, .8, .9 or whatever Leopard goes up to for sometime into the future.  Its not like Apple has some kind of kill switch that will shut it off and your G5 will turn off.  Tiger is still patched today!  So your point is a joke.

I wish MS would follow Apple.  Ship a single 64bit version of Windows 7 and security patch XP/Vista for a period of time.

Lindy

So your view of Apple customers is that they can either throw out their old computers and buy a new Macintosh every few years or be stuck with an unsupported OS and no apps. So, what IS the support lifespan for OS X releases? 10 years (like Microsoft)? Even longer than that if there's sufficient interest (like you bash Microsoft for)?

Let's compare:

Microsoft released Windows XP in 2001 and did a major, free service pack (XP SP3) for it 7 years later.

Apple released OS X 10.1 in 2001 and issued their last free service pack for it 7 MONTHS later.

Apple release OS X 10.4 in 2005 (which these people who trusted Apple got when they bought their expensive PowerMac G5 boxes in 2006) and issued their last  free service pack for it in 2007.

Yeah. That's the model to emulate.

Acer - Aspire Laptop with Intel® Pentium® Dual-Core Processor T3200

Model: AS5735-4774 | SKU: 9101928

www.bestbuy.com/.../olspage.jsp

It's back up to $500, as it dropped to $400 again last week. It will drop again, but there are other laptops and Black Friday is almost here. Also, dealnews.com is a place that I find some great prices. Still my Acer ran fine with 2GB RAM, and I don't see a lot a performance difference when I found 4GB for $23 after rebate at Fry's, just as Waethorn predicted. For $23, I will never have any doubts. As I said [I think], I watched a DVD while playing an on line Webkinz game, then a Nick.com Wubbzy game. There wasn't even a hickup. It includes Vista SP1 and MS Works. It will go back to $400 soon, I'm sure.

Mike why not just answer my questions?  I answer yours.

www.dell.com/.../winxp_inspndt

Please show me where Dell or anyone did the same thing in that link with Windows 2000.

In case you dont want to open the link let me give you the pertinent information.

"you spoke we listened"  as in yeah we here you, you dont want Vista.

"When you buy a Dell PC system configured with the Windows Vista®  BONUS, your PC will come loaded with Windows XP®  Professional pre-installed. With the BONUS option, you can transition to Windows Vista when you’re ready. Your BONUS Kit will include Windows XP Professional back-up CD which will allow you to re-install or transition back to XP from Vista if necessary plus Windows Vista Business or Ultimate installation DVD"

That did not happen with Windows 2000 or Windows 95 or 98 or ME.

Lets do compare.

MS screwed up and took forever to release Vista.  They released a version that was quite different from the demos they showed to the world in 2003.  www.youtube.com/watch

XP is here 7 years later because of failure to deliver and failure of consumers to except the replacement.

A G5 can run Leopard.  Leopard wont be replaced until fall 2009.  So if you were crazy enough to buy a G5 in August of 2006 (knowing from late 2005 that Apple was dumping PPC) then you will have had your G5 for three years at that point.  Apple will continue to support Leopard, its last OS with PPC code, for 2-3 years with security updates.  Software vendors will probably ship universal versions of their apps for that long as well, probably longer.  So if you bought a G5 in 8/06 it will be 6 years old before Apple wont support it anymore at all?  Will it stop running?  Not unless it has a hardware problem.  I think 6 years is a very long time for a PC of any kind.  I have never had one for more than 3-4 max.

It's so much fun to watch the WinJihadists shoot the messenger...in this case, InfoWorld.

@DRWAM - Ahhh...I was needing to hear more about that laptop. My sister is enjoying her's as well.

@mikegalos - If you are not a Mac owner or a person that uses, supports, or develops for OS X, why do you care so much? The same can be said for all of the aggressive Apple fans that love to bash MS. You are as one sided and single minded about this "OS War" as any of those people that you seem to enjoy being arrogant to.

--tayme

So, let's summarize the Apple model that Lindy thinks would be a better choice for the 95% of the world that uses Windows. I'm going to take him at his word that he really thinks this is a better model and isn't just saying "I want life for Windows people to suck as much as it does for Mac users"

One version of the OS - If there are features you don't need, tough, you get to pay for them no matter what.

Only 64-bit releases - if you have a 32-bit processor, tough, buy a new computer

No support for older hardware - If your computer wasn't state of the art 3 years ago, tough, buy a new computer.

And that's supposed to be better for us than a long support cycle, backward compatibility for both hardware and software and the ability to only buy what we need.

Sometimes I wonder if a requirement for being a Mac fan is that you also like hanging around people in black leather hoods and whips. There really is a strong masochism streak deep in there.

tayme

I hate seing lies trumpeted as fact. I hate seeing users get screwed by vendors who lie to them. I hate seeing technology downplayed as less important than fashion.

So, why do you care so much?

@mikegalos - I think it has been pretty obvious that I feel that the OS war is completely stupid on both sides. I use and support a variety of Operating Systems on a daily basis, both as a career and a hobby. If people want to spend their money on what they prefer, it is nobody elses business. If they see or perceive value, good for them...regardless of what OS or hardware or color the case is. how is it harming anybody else? Unless you want to live in a socialist or communist society, personal choice and personal responsibility are just that...PERSONAL!

--tayme

That said, I guess its your personal choice to be arrogant to people on the internet that do not agree with your point of view and refuse to directly answer a question that does not favor your point of view. Have fun with it!

--tayme

tayme

And, as I've said, I have no problem with people using whatever they want. I DO have a problem with people and companies lying to advance their products both from a personal ethical point of view but even more from the view that when people lie and bash a competitor's product they damage the entire industry and lower the bar for what people expect.

Nope could not answer my Windows 2000 question.  I knew you could not.

Lol the Mac Fan.  Its clear that I live and work in the both the Mac and Windows world.  It is also clear that you have Bill Gates mug tattooed to your ***.

Intel started shipping 64bit Pentium chips in 2005.  AMD started shipping 64bit Athlon CPU's in 2003.  Ship Windows 7 single version 64bit only in 2009/2010.  Continue to support XP/Vista for some time to come for those who have a CPU that is older than 5 + years.  Using MS average support plan Vista will be supported until 2017.  I think would be long enough for 32 bit CPU owners.  No one is not supported.

Answer me this question, was one consumer Vista PC even sold with a 32 bit CPU?  Even Celerons have been 64 bit for a few years at least.

Does Dell, HP, Acer, Toshiba, Apple sell any computers that are not 64bit?  I guess a netbook, not sure what a atom CPU is, to lazy to look it up.

DRWAM did your $400 Vista dream machine come with a 32 bit CPU?

Does anyone think a 5 year old CPU will run Windows 7 well??  I would not run Vista/Widows 7 on any CPU that did not have at least a dual core.

@mikegalos - Come on...if you are still trying to convince people that MS is above lying...then I want some of what you are smoking. I'm sorry, but all companies lie or "stretch the truth" to come across as better than the competition. Heck, we just finished up a campaign that was laced throughout with lies on both sides.

Before you ask me to post a list of MS's lies, I still have yet to see you post a list of blatant lies by Apple. I know you don't like thier advertising style, but get over it...it isn't that different than Obama's or McCain's debates or even the Coke vs. Pepsi advertising.

--tayme

Mike,

There's nothing you can do about it. Apple has a huge advantage that the press supports it. Nothing anyone does or says will have any impact on the company. Conversely, nothing the company says or does will negatively impact the way people look at the company. The obnoxious fans are something everyone will have to learn to deal with because as the company grows, so will their number.

tayme

If you find a place where I lied on here, let me know. I'll correct that and apologize.

Now, please hold the Apple fans to the same level.

And the same goes for companies. When "Microsoft lies, too" came up before, the only example was a web page with an incorrect photo that was pulled after a few hours when the error was caught.

Now, are you really saying that's the equivalent of the lies told by Apple?

If so, justify that view - I can't see it and I'm curious how you do.

If not, justify stating that they are equivalent.

Lindy,

I didn't bother with the Windows 2000 question because it was silly and vague and not particularly relevant or interesting to the discussion. Do you really care about Windows 2000 licensing terms?

Again, I'd point out that you're advocating that Microsoft give up providing a long support cycle, backward compatibility for both hardware and software and the ability for users to only buy what we need. And, instead do the insanely bad for the user Apple model.

Yep. Whips and hoods time.

Well Mike I can stick on topic.  I responded your comment about Infoworld and XP....

"These are, after all, the same people who spent last year in a major media campaign including podcast and web advertising to capture the groundswell of people who wanted to "Save XP""

I said that they did help save XP.  That is not a lie, its FACT that XP has been extended, as in you can still buy it, because of Inforworld, Dell, HP and others.  MS has changed the date a few times.  MS has not done this with other desktop OS'es.  The overall reason for this is lack of Vista adoption by corporations, not because of consumers, consumers basically only have once choice.  I was not talking about Apple until you took this whole thing down your logic path, you cant answer my question so you attack Apple??? Some may call that a strawman:)

Honestly I dont care about Windows 2000 or its licensing at this point, save for the fact I have a few Windows 2000/SQL 2000 clusters I must maintain until March, then buhhhhh bye.

@mikegalos - Not sure where you see that I said that you lied. I can't find that. What I did say is that you refuse to answer any questions directly. You are doing the same to Lindy's questions. You answer a question with one of your own.

Answer the question that I pose here directly - Do you feel that MS has never lied to consumers? I say they have. I also say that Apple has. Oh well...remember the old saying "caveat emptor"? It still applies...universally! In my book, a lie is a lie.

I am not going to get into a "you prove it/I prove it" battle with you. I remember trying that with you once outside of this forum, along with johnpapola regarding innovation. You try to put so many rules around it, just to skew the results in your favor.

--tayme

Lindy, the $400 Acer specs show it supports Vista 64 bit, but it shipped with the 32 bit version. As above, it is Intel® Pentium® Dual-Core Processor T3200.

I may be a little lost here, but my 1999 G4 Tower has an upgraded CPU [from a 450 MHz G4 to a 1.3GHz G4] and runs Leopard fine. Without the upgrade, I would not have been able to install Leopard without a hack, and I am not sure how the performance would be anyway. And yes, I use one of my 3 Office 2004 licences on it, that I got for $50 after rebate from MS, with a free upgrade to Office 2008. I have not installed Office 2008 as 2004 serves me well, so I'm saving the licenses. MS sent the wrong version, then apologized and sent the other version, told me to keep both, and refunded my $10 shipping in a 10 minute phone call with less than 4 minutes wait time on hold. I was almost as happy as only spending $400 on a laptop. [That my kids love].

See ya gang. I'm off to my Physicians IT Council meeting for a new demo. It may be a long one.

DRWAM I was being sarcastic, I knew your CPU is a dual core 64bit CPU.  It has that "Pentium" name because Intel cut the cache size of a core 2 duo CPU, nipped the VT ability, to save money and gave it a new name.  Why they brought back the Pentium has perplexed me, but oh well AMD is teetering on death so Intel can do whatever they like at this point.

Stick with Office 2004 its faster than 2008.  Word 2008 on my Intel Macbook 2.2ghz Santa Rosa Core 2 with 4gigs of RAM takes 20 seconds to launch.  2004 took about 3-4 using emulation.  The again Word 2007 loads about twice as slow as Word 2003 on my work PC.  Good times!!!

tayme

Your sense of equivalence is the same as saying that the cashier who accidently miscounted your change and shorted you 3 cents and then apologized for the error and returned the money is the same as the mugger who steals your wallet at gunpoint. And your conclusion is that all people are thieves and should be treated as such.

It is precisely that attitute that motivates my being on here. You're stating that if one company lies then they all lie and we should assume that anything we're being told is a lie.

When it came up before, the ONLY "lie" that Microsoft was actually accused of was that for a few hours, several years ago, they had a stock photo on a page with a testimonial rather than the picture of the actual person who gave the testimonial. And when it was discovered the picture was pulled and an apology was issued.

That's the basis for your attitude of "they all lie so why should we call out any of them for lying. And that leads to people expecting less, punishing those who don't lie and, in the end, reward the dishonest because their lies are better than the truth being offered by those who are honest.

As for not getting into a "you prove it/I prove it battle", if you don't want to back up your charges, then don't make charges.

If you DO insist on making charges, you have an obligation to back them up. Period.

OH the Drama!!!!!!!!!!  :)  LIARS!!!!!!!:)

Peace out I got life to attend to.

@mike:  ;)

trunks.fireball20xl.com/.../096.jpg

Also:

podcast.cbc.ca/.../20081105_mcclellan.mp4

@mikegalos - You are hopeless. It is always the extreme with you...much like my daughter was when she was in preschool. I did not say or infer that an honest mistake is the same thing as a mugging at gunpoint. now, if the cashier was to purposely shortchange each customer by a specific amount that added up to them walking away at the end of a shift with hundreds of dollars that belongs to the store in which they work, then yes...I believe that would be a fair comparison.

And I am most certainly have never stated that "if one company lies then they all lie and we should assume that anything we're being told is a lie."

Isn't it you that was telling people a while back to quit putting words in your mouth. Take your own advice there, buddy.

I get the feeling that your arrogance would lead you to respond to the statement “The sky is blue”

with

“Well, the atmospheric conditions that combine in a prism of light block out certain spectra of light so that the net effect on your optical nerve is actually that which is not blocked out by the other colors, therefore, the sky isn’t actually blue, but a combination of light refraction that enters your iris as blue.  However, along the International Date Line, in Typhoon season, keeping in mind that storms in the Pacific are Typhoons while those in the Atlantic are Hurricanes, light refraction through the eye of the storm will appear blue while the walls are gray, therefore, the sky is not always blue.”

Like I said before, have fun with it.

--tayme

tayme

Please reconcile:

"And I am most certainly have never stated that "if one company lies then they all lie and we should assume that anything we're being told is a lie." "

with

"Answer the question that I pose here directly - Do you feel that MS has never lied to consumers? I say they have. I also say that Apple has. Oh well...remember the old saying "caveat emptor"? It still applies...universally! In my book, a lie is a lie."

Waethorn,

You're right. That is quick and easy.

>>The same Windows OS family that runs on your UMPC also runs on huge multiprocessor servers and runs on the 23rd most powerful supercomputer in the world (NCSA's "Abe" supercomputer with 9,600 cores and running over 68 trillion floating point operations per second on the industry standard tests)<<

But they give the users a second rate paint program?

LOL

@mikegalos: "Apple that just changes to color of the lipstick every year or two and sells that as innovation."

Why does MS then copy all this lipstick of which you speak? Because they don't know how to do it.

The analogy is more like, Vista 2 (Windows 7), is like an 80 whore with heavy make-up. Has looked like that for years and still does.

@raaj: "Ocean.. can't quit trolling, can you? You could have suggested that they included Paint.net, and left it at that. But you had to throw in a flamebait calling Windows Seven as Vista II. Tsk. Tsk."

Why don't you say the same thing about Paul? When posting about Office not crashing he trolled his own blog with a comment about iTunes at the end. Completely childish, immature and unnecessary for. Then again, it is the norm for the Supersite for Windows to be about Apple bashing. Not much else. So when you whine about flame-baiting, call out Paul for doing the same thing. Why don't you? Or are you a hypocrite?

@mikegalos: "when that failed, they just started getting really desperate for readership/hits and gradually became a pretty low grade tabloid."

You're describing this blog. Like Infoworld's competitors, there are plenty of serious, reliable and trustworthy sites for Windows news.

"So your view of Apple customers is that they can either throw out their old computers and buy a new Macintosh every few years or be stuck with an unsupported OS and no apps."

As opposed to supporting 80's software with 90's hardware. Stuck in a rut with an OS that's a messy ball of spaghetti? One that only innovates when Apple and others do something. Take 6 years to come out with a clone of others' work. Is that what you mean?

Xp SP3? Oh yeah, roll out all your security fixes for a virus prone OS and you call it a major release? Come on.

Windows is nothing more than the McDonald's of the OS world. Just because it has such heavy market share and people consume it, does not mean it's any good. An in Windows' case, including Vista 2, it's certainly the case.

Windows users are like flies. They eat ***. 30 trillion other flies can't be wrong. Right?

"was one consumer Vista PC even sold with a 32 bit CPU?"

VIA is still around.  There are many systems shipping with those.  UMPC's have them in abundance too.  There are still many applications that companies use that don't run properly under WOW64 for technical reasons.  Some companies DO see the value in upgrading OS's due to increased security, and easier deployment and management though, and Microsoft doesn't want to give up on those customers, even if their 3rd-party software vendor has.

"Why they brought back the Pentium has perplexed me"

We had this discussion at the Intel Channel Conference.  The reason is because people recognize the name.  More people worldwide know the name "Pentium" than they do even "Intel".  People are confused by the Core 2 Duo name though - what is the dual core part: the "2" or the "duo"?  People will also call them "Core Dual" and such.  It's a joke really.  Nehalem's are called Core i7 for simplicity reasons.  So far, they are all quad-core with Hyperthreading.

BTW:  Anybody looking to build a kicka$$ system now on a budget should be looking at the low-cost Core i7 920 chip with the standard Intel DX58SO motherboard.  The motherboard is expensive because it's in the Extreme series, but it offers SLI, CrossfireX, and lots of other goodies.  The best part is the 920 processor is less than $400 and it beats out all previous Core 2 Extreme processors.  Even it has Hyperthreading too, and being quad-core, that's 8 simultaneous threads people!

Definitely something to watch for.

Oh yes, and it plays Doom too.  ;)

Waethorn

The Core i7 series looks really impressive. The pricing, though, does seem bizarre. I can understand charging insane prices for the 965 Extreme but the difference between the 920 and the 940 seems excessive.

What am I missing?

OK...Here is a HUUUUGE MS lie...now Mike Galos...tell me how this does NOT say what it clearly says

www.microsoft.com/.../25thanniversary.mspx

Let me copy and paste for those who do not want to go to the site...

"Delivering innovation for over 25 years

Microsoft Hardware was formed in 1982 to develop a device that would help people use the company’s new word processing program.

The device was a mouse and the application was called Word, laying the foundation for a future of delivering hardware that helps people better and more easily use software.

In the quarter century since, Microsoft Hardware has continually raised the bar, designing revolutionary peripherals that deliver groundbreaking performance, comfort and design.

From the original "green-eyed mouse" to groundbreaking products like the LifeCam NX-6000 and Wireless Entertainment Desktop 8000, Microsoft Hardware has delivered exceptional mice, keyboards, communication products, and gaming gear that has changed the way the world works, plays, and connects. "

Does this not say MS Hardware has been innovating for 25 years...they were set out to develop a new piece of hardware to help them use their new word processing program...The device was a "mouse" and the program was Word.  The mouse was patented in 1970 according to this link.

inventors.about.com/.../aa081898.htm

If you take ANYTHING AWAY FROM THIS OTHER THAN MS is using words and phrases in such a way as to make people believe that they invented the mouse for use with Word, then in no way can you say Apple's commercials CLAIM that MS is using it's FULL BUDGET to advertise Vista instead of "fixing it's problems".

gents, this IT stuff is boring. I don't know how you all do it! The food sucks too. IT guys have laptops and all the doctors have winmo smartphones.

panache

Thanks for the reminder of the innovations that Microsoft Hardware has done over now 26 years.

Now, show where it even begins to say that Microsoft invented the mouse?

this place looks like an HP showroom.

Oh, and the mouse may have been first patented in 1970 but was created in 1964. (As the article got right even if your post didn't)

And, as will probably shock Apple users, it wasn't invented by Apple or even Xerox but was invented by Doug Engelbart at the "Aug" at Stanford where he was working on using computers to augment the human mind.

For those interested, I'd recommend reading "What the Dormouse Said" for an interesting history of how the counterculture of the mid to late 1960s drove the personal computing revolution of the 1970s through today.

Oh, probably should give a reference on the book

What the Dormouse Said: How the Sixties Counterculture Shaped the Personal Computer Industry

Author: John Markoff

Publisher: Penguin (Non-Classics) (February 28, 2006)

ISBN-10: 0143036769

ISBN-13: 978-0143036760

www.amazon.com/.../ref=pd_bbs_sr_1

cheers for the laptop info, DRWAM. I doubt I'll get it anywhere near that cheap here in the UK, but it should serve me as an useful benchmark at least.

good luck and happy hunting. This acer has a good balanced hardware platform which I would use as a bottom for specs. Like tayme, I am impressed at what it can handle.

Doc

Mike, you are truly unbelievable.

1)  What did my post get wrong regarding when the mouse was patented?  I never mentioned when it was first created, only when it was patented.

2)  True, the post never said MS *invented* the mouse...the exact same way the Apple commercial with the "PC" counting the money never said that was MS's full budget for Vista, yet that was what you and all the other NBMers insisted it was saying.  The article said MS hardware was tasked to "develop a device that would help people use the company's new word processing program"....it would be easy for someone with your intelligence to come away with the impression they are claiming to have invented the mouse for use with Word...it's your BIAS towards MS that let's you see clearly that is not what is actually being said.

My point has been proven, thank you.

panache

Again, thanks for giving credit to Microsoft Hardware.

Should you ever find an example of Microsoft lying (rather than you having no reading skills) let us know.

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Mike,

Examples of Microsoft's lies? Well, how about Vista sales numbers? Computers downgraded to XP account as Vista sales. Liars.

Talking about Vista, there's probably no other product release that's more dishonest. First they shout about their new groundbreaking features, then unplug them one by one, yet keep the notion that the release is revolutionary. And Apple marketing is supposed to be deceitful?

Ultimate extras? What about that is not lying?

Mum

Got an actual lie somewhere in that list of things you don't like?

Tomorrow's News Today (at least on the West Coast, Today's News Today on the East Coast and several other time zones...)

http://www.Liveslde.net is reporting that Windows Live Wave 3 is being rolled out complete with the addition of Profile, People, Photos and Home. There are also size increases for SkyDrive and Hotmail, POP3 for Hotmail and 50 partners signed up to do feeds for their new WhatsNew feed.

@mikegalos - that is easy to reconcile...there are a couple of key words. They are "stated" and "all". First off, I have NEVER "stated" what you said that I stated. That makes you a liar, or as your buddy waethorn would say "LIAR!!!". Secondly, I only mentioned 2 companies in the question that I posed.

Again, have fun mike...because I certainly am!

--tayme

"Got an actual lie somewhere in that list of things you don't like?"

So, what, in your opinion, in Apple's marketing are the actual lies so we can decide whether they are in fact lies or just stuff you don't like?

The most accurate comment in the InfoWorld article is this "Windows 7 is in fact just a repackaging of Windows Vista"

Everyone knows that. It is Vista 2. Nothing more, nothing less. Windows 7 being touted as having all of Vista's flaws fixed are living in a dream world and just building it up because they are living with a pig.

:( I'll stick to the blog posts. the comments used to be interesting. Now they just degenerate into a mud flinging match on all sides. Pity really.

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