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The Microsoft Store is really just the most recent Microsoft online store

This blurb will be in Short Takes today, but I wanted to get it out there because I know I’m going to get 100 emails this morning from people telling me that Microsoft just launched their first online store.

No, they didn’t.

Don't be fooled into thinking that this week's launch of The Microsoft Store is Microsoft's first foray into selling its products via an online storefront. And please, dear God, don't try to tell me that they're somehow copying Apple, because they aren't. Microsoft has, in fact, been selling its products via the Windows Marketplace for several years now. And the only big difference I can see between that site and the new Microsoft Store is that the latter only sells Microsoft software and hardware, while the former also offers third party products. So why all the hoo-hah over Microsoft's new store? Because most of the people who write blogs and news articles in this industry have no understanding of the topic they're covering. Yeah, I said it. Even Microsoft got it wrong: In a posting to the Windows Experience Blog announcing the store, a Microsoft employee described the new storefront as "the first online store where you can purchase Microsoft products straight from the source." Which is curious, because I purchased Microsoft AutoCollage from the Windows Marketplace about two weeks earlier. And for the record, the Terms of Use page on that site notes that Windows Marketplace is a "service that Microsoft provides."

BTW, I believe that Windows Marketplace launched in 2004. Here’s a story about it. Yes, the article says the site will be “maintained” by CNET. But all of the legal disclaimers on the site and trademarks point to Microsoft’s ownership, as noted above. You’d think Microsoft, at least, would try to draw some distinction between Windows Marketplace and

And let’s not forget Microsoft’s other online stores like Xbox Marketplace and Zune Marketplace.

Comments

 

The Microsoft Store is really just the most recent Microsoft online store | MS Tech News said:

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November 14, 2008 8:56 AM
 

systemwolf said:

This is exactly what I thought when I read this on engadget.

BTW The ads on your site are the absolute worst, they are extremely intrusive. I keep coming back anyway though, so I guess it doesn't matter.

November 14, 2008 9:00 AM
 

panache1023 said:

What I don't understand is...Why is the FULL VERSION DOWNLOAD $20 more than the FULL VERSION shipped on DVD, but the UPGRADE versions are the same price whether you get it on DVD or via download?

Full Version

Windows Vista Home Prem SP1 English NA DVD

$239.95

Item: 66I-02387

Version Upgrade

Windows Vista Home Prem SP1 English NA UPG DVD

$129.95

Item: 66I-02388

Full Download Version

Windows Vista Home Prem SP1 English DWNLD (US/UK/DE)

$259.95 / £169.99 / €219.00

Upgrade Download Version

Windows Vista Home Prem SP1 English Upgrade DWNLD (US/UK/DE)

$129.95 / £79.99 / €119.00

November 14, 2008 9:42 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Yep. Not even close to Microsoft's first online software store.

Adding to Paul's list, there was also the online ordering and billing for MSN back in 1995 (when it competed with Compuserve) which expanded to support online sales of all the MSN services. And OneCare has been sold online since it came out in 2006.

(And OT but I didn't catch the end of the topic close in time to dump in this bit of trivia... Hotmail has that name because it was an HTML based email. Hence, HoTMaiL. In the same vein, the premier 3rd party web page editor at the time was HoTMetaL so it was kind of an industry fad.)

November 14, 2008 9:47 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

panache

I'm showing the same price for DVD and download for Full Product.

November 14, 2008 9:53 AM
 

panache1023 said:

Mike Galos,

I just refreshed the page again...here is the link

www.microsoft.com/.../product.aspx

here is what I see, copied and pasted right from the page from the link above.

Order from Microsoft

Full Version

Windows Vista Home Prem SP1 English NA DVD

$239.95

Item: 66I-02387

Version Upgrade

Windows Vista Home Prem SP1 English NA UPG DVD

$129.95

Item: 66I-02388

Full Download Version

Windows Vista Home Prem SP1 English DWNLD (US/UK/DE)

$259.95 / £169.99 / €219.00

Upgrade Download Version

Windows Vista Home Prem SP1 English Upgrade DWNLD (US/UK/DE)

$129.95 / £79.99 / €119.00

Which is sucks because if I do decide to buy it, I don't want to pay $20 more to download it.

November 14, 2008 9:56 AM
 

panache1023 said:

If I actually click the button to actually do the download, the price listed is the same, $239...

either way it wouldn't matter, I made a mistake.  I'd be buying the upgrade version anyway....

So I guess MS just has a typo on that page that I linked to.

November 14, 2008 9:59 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Oh, and mustn't forget the Microsoft's Internet Gaming Zone starting in 1996.

November 14, 2008 10:08 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

@mikegalos: "Yep. Not even close to Microsoft's first online software store."

You mean Microsoft LIED?  ;-)

Waiting for Waethorn to quote Microsoft and then write "LIAR!!!!!"

November 14, 2008 10:08 AM
 

WebGuy3000 said:

Wow.  Take a look at the page panache1023 linked to in Firefox.  It's totally broken (at least on my PC), from the gradients at the top to the formatting all down the page.  Looks fine in IE.  Weird.

November 14, 2008 10:08 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Panache

Could be a typo on the product info page you showed. You should submit it as a bug.

I was looking at the page on the actual store. There it has the correct price.

November 14, 2008 10:10 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

lotsa

Yes, whoever the blogger was who posted it to that blog got it wrong.

I'll wait to see something actually from Microsoft before I say that Microsoft did. Last I checked (a few minutes ago) there wasn't a press release up on www.microsoft.com/presspass about it yet.

November 14, 2008 10:15 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Oh, and Paul already left a comment on that blog pointing out that they're statement was wrong.

So far, people are less concerned with history of online shopping sites than when it will be open in their specific country.

November 14, 2008 10:18 AM
 

DRWAM said:

I'm going OT too as the Gmail web service has a stupid way of displaying replies, which made my reply to a reply send back to my own account, not to the sender of the reply. This does not happen on mobile Gmail. The web display just sucks.

November 14, 2008 10:20 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Webguy

Looks fine in Internet Exlorer 8 Beta 2 running the page in Standards Compliant mode. Maybe Firefox did a non-standard way of interpreting a standard.

November 14, 2008 10:32 AM
 

panache1023 said:

I am using FF3..and the page I linked to looks all messed up.

I opened that same page in IE6...looks normal.

Maybe it's not using standards after all?

November 14, 2008 10:42 AM
 

shark47 said:

Looks fine in Chrome on a Windows PC too.

November 14, 2008 10:42 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Hmm

Looks fine in IE6 (uses old "standards")

Looks fine in IE8 (uses new "standards")

Fails in Firefox.

I'd say that points to Firefox, once again, interpreting the standards in their own way and their supporters declaring that interpretation as "the one true way". (Or it could just be a Firefox bug)

November 14, 2008 10:44 AM
 

panache1023 said:

Or MAAAAAYBE....

FF has code in there like

if (domain_is_microsoft())

{

  RenderLikeGarbage();

}

else

{

  RenderWell();

}

HAHAHA!

November 14, 2008 10:51 AM
 

Ocean said:

A download store.  Cool.

November 14, 2008 11:01 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Panache

Actually, it's probably more tied to the philosophy difference between Microsoft Corporation and the Mozilla Corporation.

When a part of the "standard" is vague, Microsoft has traditionally had the philosophy of "the user doesn't care why it's broken, so pick the interpretation that renders as well as possible". Mozilla has traditionally had the philosophy of "the purity of the standard is the highest goal so pick the interpretation that's a strict as possible and if the page breaks the site owner can fix it"

Both are valid ways of looking and there are good cases to be made for "User Centric" versus "Strict Interpretation".

My problem with the Mozilla Corporation is that they are not exactly strict about their "strict" policy and change interpretations pretty quickly when a site they like wants a change.

For example, I know of one "interpretation issue" that had been filed as a bug with Mozilla since well before Firefox was called Firefox, had been escallated several times over the years and was always shot down with "We're interpreting the standard as strictly as possible". (That Microsoft chose the other interpretation may have been a factor as well). When a well known Linux/Apache site with a reputation of bashing Microsoft escallated that same bug, Mozilla found a way to change their "strict interpretation" philosophy and fixed it in that night's daily build.

November 14, 2008 11:08 AM
 

WebGuy3000 said:

Nah, that whole Product Information Center section:

www.microsoft.com/.../default.aspx

looks screwy in Firefox, Google Chrome, Opera and Safari.  The source code refers to a bunch of css classes that those browsers can't see at all, for some reason.  Oddly, Explorer can.  Not sure why, but it may have to do with the css.aspx pages that are referenced in the head.

Hey, I did not mean  to hijack the thread with a discussion of web browsers.  It's not important.  Please, back to your regularly scheduled comments...

November 14, 2008 11:09 AM
 

panache1023 said:

OK...

Back to the Online Store......

Well, kind of...

Is it worth if for me to pay the $130 and get Vista Home Premium, or do I wait a year (or two, or whatever), and wait for Windows 7 SP1?

November 14, 2008 11:17 AM
 

Lindy said:

Wow its the Microsoft Mikey blog!!!!:)

It works fine in FF 3.04 and Safari 3.2 on my Mac.

No its not the first time MS has sold stuff online.  BUT it is the first time they put most of their stuff on a single easy to use web site.  Sort of like......

http://store.apple.com/us  :)

Wow do people really pay $399 to get Office 2007 with Outlook????  

Good God that's expensive!!

November 14, 2008 11:26 AM
 

beaker said:

why does this company keep changing the names of their products/stores???

November 14, 2008 11:27 AM
 

Lindy said:

"why does this company keep changing the names of their products/stores???"

My single biggest complaint about MS.  

I mean right now you can use your MSN, Passport, Hotmail, Live user name to login to you Hotmail Plus account is you need access.  Which will get you access to your Xbox Live/Zune , Live Mesh, Sky Drive, MSN premium applications as well.

Or you can now go to this new store to buy your Xbox Elite, Premium, Pro, Basic, Arcade console.

Pick up a copy of Vista, basic, home premium, business, enterprise, ultimate in both 32bit and 64bit versions.

Once you have your $400 Acer notebook loaded up with 1 of 10 versions of Vista you can now purchase Office 2007, home/student, standard, professional, small business, or ultimate and then your really cooking with gas.  Of course you will have to go with hosted Exchange to get basic IMAP like functionality since msn/hotmail/live eamail currently only supports POP as a paid service, unless you are grand fathered in, in which case you download some additional tools for Outlook so you can sync some stuff with your msn/hotmail/live calendar....which might or might not be free this week.

Or just wait 8 months and pick up a copy of......

Windows 7 basic

Windows 7 Joe User

Windows 7 Premium (not for home use)

Windows 7 Home Premium

Windows 7 small business

Windows 7 medium business

Windows 7 not so big business

Windows 7 enterprise

Windows 7 non profit basic

Windows 7 non profit small business

Windows 7 non profit not so big business

Windows 7 non profit enterprise

or

Windows 7 Ulitmate

All of which come in 64bit, 32bit and Pentium 4 HT versions for those hyperthreaded lovers out there!!!!

November 14, 2008 11:42 AM
 

shark47 said:

People have a choice? Wow! That's terrible.

November 14, 2008 11:51 AM
 

shark47 said:

roberts... err, lindy,

With names like Vista Business, Vista Enterprise, and Vista Home Premium, how does the average consumer know which of these SKUs is for home use? Very difficult, indeed.

November 14, 2008 12:03 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Yeah. Having choices is a horror.

(Of course, what makes this absurd is that Lindy knows that there are only 4 retail versions of Vista since we've been through that many times before. But, apparently, actually letting consumers choose what they want to buy is so offensive to some people that they bring it up no matter the excuse.)

November 14, 2008 12:04 PM
 

johnpapola said:

Thank god Microsoft is finally doing this for real instead of faking it with third parties.  Windows Marketplace was a horrific nightmare of support finger-pointing and consumer confusion.  I bought the "Full Version" of Vista as a download via my Mac for use on my Mac Pro through Windows Marketplace.  As Paul said, that experience was designed to truly seem like it was a store owned and operated by Microsoft.

The problem?  The download wasn't really a Full Version at all because it required Windows to already be on the system for the installation to proceed.  No clean installation was possible because the download was an executable, not a disc image.  The idea of selling a "Full Version" at a higher price than an "Upgrade" while stripping away the two things that make it a full version (clean installation, and no need for a prior copy of Windows) is shocking to me.  And this is the premiere product.

What followed was 4 hours of acrimonious finger pointing between "Digital River" who ran the store, and Microsoft support (india).  Both said the other was responsible for the content and mechanism of the downloaded products.  Digital River was very frustrated and said they encountered this kind of pass-the-buck support constantly from Microsoft.

I got a nice call from a Microsoft manager and dutifully explained the whole things, as well as my expectation of the ability to generate a disc via a disc image from the download.  He claimed that online software retail was "very new" and didn't know what Disk images were and was amazed to here that they were a standard vehicle for Mac OSX software delivery.

Now, if I were on Windows, maybe I wouldn't have minded as much... though I always preferred clean installs so I probably would have.  And maybe Windows Marketplace wasn't garbage for other stuff... but...

The very fact that "Windows Marketplace" made it impossible to download an online copy of WINDOWS as a new user and followed it up with 4 HOURS of support finger pointing (classic PC world nonsense) was just a spectacular reminder of why I left the platform behind.  Trash.  Pure Trash.

November 14, 2008 12:07 PM
 

Waethorn said:

@lindy:

Thinking (much like IT), is not your forté.  You should leave that to professionals with experience.

November 14, 2008 12:07 PM
 

Lindy said:

Oh lets not forget the  Windows 7 Gears of War 3 and Halo 4 commemorative editions:)

November 14, 2008 12:07 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Shark

And Vista Enterprise isn't even available in the retail channel. It's only sold as part of an enterprise license agreement.

Again, it's that "We'll sell you what you want" versus "We'll tell you what you want" mindset.

November 14, 2008 12:11 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

John,

You really mean you had trouble finding a place to buy Microsoft products? And you live where?

November 14, 2008 12:13 PM
 

Lindy said:

@Waethorn SBS solves everything and home brew desktops from "Canadian Amateur  R-US Computers to Go" makes you what?

A professional Windows Fangirl on the Winsupersite???

I still think you and Mike are the same person.  You have IE7 and IE8 open at the same time on your Vista SE machine, logged in as different users.  I like it when you ask Mike (yourself) for technical advice...nice touch!!!

November 14, 2008 1:16 PM
 

Lindy said:

"And Vista Enterprise isn't even available in the retail channel."  

Shocking Mike, I had no idea???  That means my company has 250,000+ copies sitting unused via our Enterprise agreement.  Who would have thunk it????

November 14, 2008 1:22 PM
 

chuckb84 said:

On Vista versions, we can go back to Paul for the definitive, pre-release word on this. And, oh my lord, just read it,

"Microsoft plans two general Vista edition categories, which map closely to the two that exist today for Windows XP (XP Home Edition, which includes XP Starter, Home, and Media Center Editions, and XP Professional Edition, which includes XP Pro, Pro x64, and Tablet PC editions). Vista will feature two categories: Home and Business. In the Home category, Microsoft will create four product editions: Vista Starter Edition, Vista Home Basic Edition, Vista Home Premium Edition, and Vista Ultimate Edition (previously known as the "Uber" Edition). The Business category will feature three editions: Vista Small Business Edition, Vista Professional Edition, and Vista Enterprise Edition."

He needs a whole article to explain the versions, complete with howlingly funny Microsoft PR flack telling us all about "the goal of the Vista product edition differentiations is to provide a "clear value proposition" to all customer segments". Really reminds me of the famous "If Microsoft did the iPod Packaging" video. These guys can't help it, it is in the corporate DNA.

windowsitpro.com/.../pre-pdc-exclusive-windows-vista-product-editions-revealed.html

November 14, 2008 1:32 PM
 

Waethorn said:

" still think you and Mike are the same person.  You have IE7 and IE8 open at the same time on your Vista SE machine, logged in as different users.  I like it when you ask Mike (yourself) for technical advice...nice touch!!!"

I rest my case.

November 14, 2008 1:34 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Lindy.

Despite what you must think, your company really didn't go to a retail store, walk up to the register and say, "I'd like 250,000 copies of Windows Vista Enterprise. Do you take Visa?" They bought a corporate license. And that license is how they can get Windows Vista Enterprise.

November 14, 2008 1:37 PM
 

Lindy said:

@Waethorn powerful comeback my Canadian brother.  Did you write that one your self:)

November 14, 2008 1:41 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Chuck

Repeating it again just for you (and as yet another time for Lindy who seems to have serious reading comprehension issues)

Windows Vista is sold in 4 (four) retail versions

Two for home users

Windows Vista Home Basic

Windows Vista Home Premium

One is for business users

Windows Vista Business

And then there's a very special one has all the features that are in any of the other three versions all in one

Windows Vista Ultimate

Now, that wasn't so hard, was it?

Next we'll move on to colors and after recess we'll talk about the letters P and S and the number 4.

November 14, 2008 1:43 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

I'm starting to understand why Apple thinks a two button mouse is too complex for their fans.

November 14, 2008 1:46 PM
 

Lindy said:

Mike your killing with this stuff.  I know all about it.  

We probably pay for a 3 year Enterprise agreement, at what cost I have no idea, it depends upon which components we get in that agreement and at the numbers we buy in I am sure there is a hefty discount with our numbers.  We participate in some TAP programs, not Vista obviously , which probably give use further discounts.  I have gone to plenty of MS course over the years from vouchers we get from buying so much stuff.  I have a 3 day IIS7 class coming up in December from those vouchers.

So yes we got Vista as part of that Enterprise agreement.  Its probably a few pieces of paper and a login to download the media if we want it.  If/when we renew it, which I have no idea when that is, we will get Windows 7 as part of it.

MS could have a 5 day course just for licensing options alone.  Get certified in it no less.  Its the same confusion they come up with their product lines.  I know NO ONE that has ever liked the complexity of their licensing.  Its often a joke from MS speakers at various MS events.

November 14, 2008 1:49 PM
 

panache1023 said:

Mike,

It's (uncalled for) comments like this that make people call you arrogant

"I'm starting to understand why Apple thinks a two button mouse is too complex for their fans."

Just asking....If the mighty mouse has NO BUTTONS, yet responds to clicks on the left and on the right AS IF there WERE BUTTONS there....and it works perfectly well....why do there ACTUALLY NEED to be buttons?  

Also, the mighty mouse does actually have buttons on the side...I use them for Expose...just saying

BTW, I have to retract my negative comments about the Mighty Mouse from a while ago...it does work pretty well actually, just my mouse pad sucked and caused the issues I was having...got a new mouse pad and it works well......Personally though, I still like the Logitech or even MS mouses.

November 14, 2008 1:58 PM
 

Lindy said:

Mike your to funny, like Chuck or I care.  I know how many versions there are.  I know what versions a consumer can buy.  My long post was satire buddy.

I personally think there are to many versions, and I have seen many articles on that subject that agree.  

I know MS could technically make one version and allow a consumers/desktop deployment teams pick which components get installed.  Make a fancy once care like gui/wizard for consumers.  They do that now in Vista Server (2008) with "Roles" and "Features"  Or as Waethorn will tell you SBS2008 has some really dumbed down wizards for doing almost everything.

It of course is my opinion nothing more.

November 14, 2008 1:58 PM
 

WebGuy3000 said:

@mikegalos@msn.com: You really should get some new material - Macs have shipped with a 2-button mouse for years.

Anyway, I like the new store.  It's clean, well laid out and there's lots of supporting info available on most pages.  The only thing I found jarring was the different theme on the Entertainment tab.  But I totally understand it.  Black is edgier, and often used  for that sort of content.  It does create a bit of conflict for me since the front page has the entertainment theme (because they're featuring Gears of war, I guess) but you immediately switch to the clean white theme when you go anywhere else.

But those are niggles.  Overall I think it's really well done.

November 14, 2008 1:59 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Lindy

Since you say you know all about it, why do you keep listing Enterprise as a source of confusion for the consumer?

Just trolling?

Trying to make your case by making up "facts" when the real facts don't back you up?

You seem to bring up how confusing 4 choices is all the time and then make up stuff to justify your case and I suspect I'm not the only one wondering why.

November 14, 2008 2:00 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"Lindy who seems to have serious reading comprehension issues"

Ditto.

"Did you write that one your self [sic]"

Keep regurgitating robertsjoe's crap. [sick]

November 14, 2008 2:01 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

WebGuy

Shhhh. Don't let the mac people know. If they figured out they could turn on the second, hidden button, I suspect their heads would explode.

November 14, 2008 2:01 PM
 

Lindy said:

Satire

en.wikipedia.org/.../Satire

I am exaggerating the point.  MS changes their product names so much, and offers to many versions that it causes consumer confusion.

Example you can buy this right now.

join.msn.com/.../overview

Please tell me WTF that is anymore and how it fits into Live, or Hotmail or Mesh?

I have a Xbox 360 I bought in 2006.  At the time it was called a premium.  What is it called today?  A pro?  I know someone that bought the basic, now its called the "Arcade".

I could go on but maybe its just too hard for you to grasp??

November 14, 2008 2:15 PM
 

chuckb84 said:

Mike,

I manage to read fairly well most of the time, although the presbyopia is annoying. Still, I had no trouble reading this,

"community.winsupersite.com/.../what-went-wrong-with-windows-vista.aspx"

Where your dear leader tells you all,

"Joe Wilcox offers up a common-sense look at what wrong in Vista's first year.

10. Too many versions.

Exactly. I was an immediate and vocal critic of Microsoft's decision to bifurcate Vista into far too many product editions. Curiously, Microsoft touts this decision--modeled after what it did with Office 2003--as a success. I think it led to consumer confusion and the (correct) feeling that Microsoft was screwing those who couldn't afford a higher-end version."

Let me simplify it, since that IS a whole paragraph of text, "led to consumer confusion and the (correct) feeling that Microsoft was screwing those who couldn't afford a higher-end version."

So, it isn't about "choice", it is about the usual (Paul would say "bad, old") Microsoft doing what the "bad, old" Microsoft does best: screwing customers. Looks like the bad, old Microsoft is basically the same as the new, good(?) Microsoft.

It's not my opionion, it is Pauls.

November 14, 2008 2:22 PM
 

shark47 said:

I guess simplicity is the reason that Apple went from one version of the iPod to numerous versions and colors when the marketshare increased. didn't they rename iPod Video to iPod classic or something?

November 14, 2008 2:26 PM
 

Lindy said:

Mike/Waethorn from your savior's mouth....

"What's scary here, of course, is how widely Microsoft is expanding the Windows product line. As with its Office family of products, Microsoft is stretching things a bit with this wide number of product editions, and this will lead to consumer and business confusion, which is never a good thing. When the company revealed that they were componentizing Windows Vista in order to make it easier for the company and its PC maker partners to create various product editions on the fly (read a discussion about this topic in my showcase, The Road to Windows Longhorn 2003), few people expected them to take advantage of the situation like this. The sheer number of Windows Vista versions is going to cause massive consumer confusion, and some of these versions will likely be orphaned after they prove to be targeting niche markets. That will lead to further migration confusion when the time to upgrade comes."

www.winsupersite.com/.../winvista_editions.asp

Is that enough justification to make my case?  O

November 14, 2008 2:26 PM
 

shark47 said:

"I have a Xbox 360 I bought in 2006.  At the time it was called a premium.  What is it called today?  A pro?"

No. It's called ... wait for it... Premium. I guess when you're attempting to do a satire, you can ignore the 10 seconds of research part.

November 14, 2008 2:28 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"You really mean you had trouble finding a place to buy Microsoft products? And you live where?"

Typical "mikegalos"...ignoring the specific, detailed and very real problems experienced by a customer, and blaming the user.

And you say Apple fans are arrogant?

November 14, 2008 2:29 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Chuck and Lindy,

Ah. There's the confusion. You see, we Windows types think for ourselves and thus like choices. We don't have a "Dear Leader/Savior" to tell us what to do and what will confuse us?

November 14, 2008 2:31 PM
 

Lindy said:

@shark and 10 seconds more would show you that the premium cant be purchased any more.  MS changed the name to PRO or just Xbox 360.  Arcade was Core.

store.microsoft.com/.../30202

www.gamestop.com/.../Search.aspx

www.bestbuy.com/.../olspage.jsp

en.wikipedia.org/.../Xbox_360  version list for you.

November 14, 2008 2:43 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Wow, Lindy, that's a really nice article that Paul wrote in 2005 about what the rumors were concerning "Longhorn" client versions.

Now, back in reality...

4 Retail Versions

That's less choices than picking the color of an iPod Nano.

Why is that so hard for you?

November 14, 2008 2:45 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Lindy,

Oh, no. I just looked on the Apple page and can't figure out how to buy an Apple PowerBook.

Don't tell me they change the name! That'd be just to hard to follow.

And, if I buy a Mac Book rather than a Mac Book Pro, does that have the cast Aluminum case? Even if it's white? What about the Aluminum one I saw on eBay that's a few years old? It's a Mac Book so it's the same as the current Mac Book, right?

November 14, 2008 2:48 PM
 

gorath said:

Lindy, it's useless, I moaned about too many vista versions here before and Wae and Mike both stepped in waving the flag.

In fact, I was accused of wanting Vista ultimate at home basic prices (which I never said, and never wanted) and also of being an apple fanatic!

Hell I was even asked how I thought OSX was better in this regard, when I only use OSX when I have to - which isn't often. I think I've used a mac about 4 times this year.

I didn't even mention OSX, because it wasn;t relevant to the conversation.

I.R. Gorath, I.R. recording engineer and I am NOT a mac.

I would be tempted to say I'm a PC, but then I'd get lumped in with people like Mike, unfortunately.

November 14, 2008 2:52 PM
 

Lindy said:

Lol Mike, do you think I cant find another 10 articles that speak to consumer confusion around the Vista versions?  All of which pretty much say the same thing as the winsupersite.

You did not answer my question before, I know its hard for you.  How about this one, do you access your msn email from your MSN Web TV or from the MSN premium web browser you pay $124 a year for???

November 14, 2008 2:52 PM
 

DRWAM said:

Guys, my $400 Vista laptop only came with one version. Just wanted to post something:)

November 14, 2008 2:57 PM
 

chuckb84 said:

Mike,

"4 Retail Versions

That's less choices than picking the color of an iPod Nano.

Why is that so hard for you?"

Nice strawman. Of course, even Paul got it right ""led to consumer confusion and the (correct) feeling that Microsoft was screwing those who couldn't afford a higher-end version."

The difference is that no one feels screwed buying a blue or red iPod, because both COST THE SAME. On the contrary,  it is clear to everyone---even Paul---that Microsoft is deliberately screwing its customers with this "versions" of Vista. Of course, it is nothing new, they did the same with XP and with all those versions of Office.

And I think the 4 -retail- versions is an undercount. Six versions reported here.

blogs.pcworld.com/.../001513.html

Of course, as Paul already noted, "The sheer number of Windows Vista versions is going to cause massive consumer confusion, and some of these versions will likely be orphaned after they prove to be targeting niche markets." So perhaps they dropped from six to 4.

And that makes the point. WHY, why, should anyone have to keep track of this twaddle? It is a transparent attempt at phone "product differentiation" to drive people towards higher priced "versions".

November 14, 2008 2:57 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Gee Lindy,

A bunch of people write article quoting each other and that's evidence that what they say is true.

Four Versions of Vista at Retail. That's it. If you and the "computer press" find that confusing, I have deep sympathies.

Now, I access my MSN email from Outlook via POP3 and from Windows Mobile via POP3 and from the web via Hotmail and could access it from quite a few other places including the services you mention or from several others.

You see, flexibility is a good thing. I get to pick the choices that work for me rather than being told "You have one choice. You will use it and like it."

And, if you really want confusion, I've even been known to access it via Hotmail using non-Microsoft products like browsers and mail clients.

Choosing what I want to use and how I want to use it. The Horror. The Horror.

November 14, 2008 3:05 PM
 

Lindy said:

I am talking big picuture.  The 360 is one example.  However your analogy is flawed

Xbox = Powerbook (both are retired and replaced)

Xbox 360 = Macbook

I have no problem with MS adding the elite, it came in another color, added HDMI, bigger HD, basically more Xbox 360 for a higher price.  Adding to the line.  The name and price suggest more and that is what you get.  Most consumers would figure it out, pretty quickly.

I would have no problem with them adding a bigger drive to what was the Premium, since prices come down.  Much like the Macbook gets upgraded to what it is now.  

However to change the name in mid life on the Premium and Core and not changing its ability.......for what reason?  Maybe if it had been out for a long time, maybe.

How about changing the Wii to Wiiiii for the hell of it?  Dont change the ability of the Wii, just change its name.  Just to FRAK with your customers, make them think its a new product with new abilities or not?????  

November 14, 2008 3:05 PM
 

Lindy said:

As a former Microsoft employee do you get a discount on that MSN premium price?

Do they make a IE 7 version of that cartoon MSN browser?

November 14, 2008 3:07 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

ChuckB

The reason your PCWorld article lists 6 versions rather than 4 is that they list 2 that are NOT available to consumers.

They also list

Enterprise (which is only sold through enterprise license agreements and not to consumers at retail)

and Starter (which is sold in developing nations at a subsidy through their governments to get computers to people living in near poverty)

There are 4 Retail versions of Windows Vista. That's it. FOUR.

1) Home Basic

2) Home Premium

3) Business

4) Ultimate

And by having choices, Microsoft offers three lower priced versions than by only selling the Ultimate version that has to have all the options to suit all needs. Product differentiation drops prices.

November 14, 2008 3:10 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

DRWAM

And your $400 laptop could use any of the 4 versions. It's YOUR choice based on YOUR needs.

(Just wanted to mention the $400 Vista laptop again)

November 14, 2008 3:11 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Lindy

Actually, I don't use the MSN browser. I use IE 8 Beta 2 most of the time.

I'm not the target for the MSN browser (if it's even still around).

And since I use Word, I also don't use Works and I also don't use WordPad. But those are better choices for some people so it's great that we all have those choices.

You see, choices means that a person who finds one product suits their needs better can use that product rather than being forced to use a product that's a bad choice for them.

November 14, 2008 3:14 PM
 

Dipsh t Admin said:

Concerning the Premium/Pro flap, I can think of two reasons why they might have done that.  First, the word Premium could be confused with Elite, whereas pro doesn't sound like it is the elite version.  It's basically the same thing as the auto industry, with multiple versions of one car.  It's even worse with my new BMW, which sells many features individually, or includes many different packages making finding a similar equipped car you want to find an impossibility.  Dropping the Premium name also could be taken with the same reason they dropped the Premium ready version of Vista.

FWIW, MS is quite schizophrenic with it comes to naming.  At my company we use what was originally called Navision, but has changed names so many times most still refer to it as it's original name.  The company division has even changed names.  It's confusing.  However, in their defense, when you deal with such a wide ranging product line, you sometimes need to change the names of things so that things don't overlap.

Concerning the Vista versions, I don't see a huge problem, especially for the typical consumer, which will really only see one version, Premium, on a wide variety of devices, including $400 Acer notebooks :)  They should drop Basic though, at least for the US market.  However, let's wait for 7 to see how they partition things.

November 14, 2008 3:20 PM
 

chuckb84 said:

Mike,

Thanks for clarifying the 4 versus 6. In fact, there ARE 6 versions of Vista; you get it down to 4 by adding the word "retail". Why in the world we have such a pricing structure is the exact point of disagreement.

Paul thinks, and I agree, that the multiple versions of Vista "led to consumer confusion and the (correct) feeling that Microsoft was screwing those who couldn't afford a higher-end version."

He is a big advocate of choice, and yet doesn't see this issue in those terms.

Neither do I. It is the usual Microsoft strategy of posting a confusing plethora of "choices" which will tend to drive the insecure consumer towards the "all included" version.

Your counter-examples with iPods and Powerbooks are (1) an attempt to change the subject, (2) extraneous because, as I pointed out, the color of the iPod doesn't change the price, (3) as you've pointed out yourself in other threads, you can't excuse the bad behavior of company A by pointing out examples of the same from Company B.

Earlier I referred to the hilarious video "If Microsoft did the iPod Packaging". It is really the same problem, versions, modifiers, "differentiators", ad nauseum. They just can't help it (I particularly like the "Human Ear Edition"). Of course, a cynic about Microsoft would say that they can't help it because it maximizes profits, and that, of course is what they are there for.

www.youtube.com/watch

November 14, 2008 3:27 PM
 

shark47 said:

Doc raised a point that everyone here ignored. Most people don't buy the hardware and the OS separately. When a consumer buys a computer, it comes with exactly one (1) OS. This is a pretty silly argument that benefits no one. The names might be bad and the distinction between versions might be arbitrary but having 3 retail versions is not confusing unless you're the kind of person who likes to have everything picked out for you. (For lindy's sake, I used the 'generic you' there.)

November 14, 2008 3:31 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Of course, if we really want to talk about schizophrenic naming, just wait to see what the version of Apple's OS X after 10.9 will be.

OS X 10.10?

OS X 11.0?

OS XI 11.0?

OS XI 1.0?

Or what will happen when Ubuntu reaches out a few more versions and they have to come up with an adjective/animal pair that both start with X. (They're up to the "J"s now with Jaunty Jackalope in development).

November 14, 2008 3:34 PM
 

Lindy said:

Mike its time for your meds, and the proxy report will be run in 10min.  Visiting hours are over.

November 14, 2008 3:38 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Chuck

No. I always said retail since the consumer isn't confused by versions they never see.

By you insisting that confused consumers buy the "all inclusive" one, I take it you and all the people you know bought Ultimate? That's surprising since aside from people in the tech industry, I don't know any.

My bringing up the Power Book vs Mac Book vs Mac Book vs Mac Book was, I think, right on target with the discussion of XBox naming.

Now on to your change of subject, the reason Microsoft's packaging is complex is that they have to sell it in general retail stores and have to live with actual legal rules and store rules. BTW: The video is very popular inside Microsoft.

November 14, 2008 3:38 PM
 

Lindy said:

@shark while there were many versions of XP initially is was quite simple.  XP Home and XP Pro.  Most people got it, especially when Home could not join a domain.

Vista Business, Vista Enterprise and Vista Ultimate can join a Domain which would be an indicator to some that Ultimate is a business version, buts its a consumer version that has some business only features.  Unless you are going to tell me Joe User is setting up domains at their houses now???

Or lets look at Home Premium.  It can use a RDC client to get to other Windows boxes that can offer up a RDC connection, XP Pro, Vista Business, Enterprise, Ultimate, server 2000/2003/2008 and SBS versions of those servers.  However it cant be connected to using RDC.  Unless of course you buy Windows Home Server and then the client software adds that ability Home Premium.  Not confusing at all.

I am all for choice all day long.  I am not for having to do a lot of reading just to figure out which version to get, and neither is Joe Consumer.  Chuck said it best, add confusion so they buy Ultimate.

November 14, 2008 3:47 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos: Or maybe IE8 also has support for IE6's pathetic rendering engine Yeah, I think that's it. It has a fallback mode to "crap IE6 stuff". Microsoft sites are well known for being flaky or rendering badly on non-IE browsers. Which look, it's fine since it's their stuff. But don't blame FF since MS is a is culprit it wrecking and not correctly implementing web standards correctly.

I'd say the problem is with IE.

Are you paid by Microsoft for all the trolling you do for them? I think you should. I mean, you either have a fountain of useless MS knowledge, or you're making it up and no one would care to check such "facts" about MS. Either that or Mike is really Paul, just using a non-tarnished brand. A la Vista 2. ;)

November 14, 2008 3:49 PM
 

shark47 said:

gorath,

The problem is when you have to try arguing with the types of lindy. They're stubborn, arrogant, and believe that Jobs' word is the ultimate truth. These are the same people who claim they never buy MS consumer products, yet they have a negative opinion and a list of complaints about each one of them that they repeat in every thread. Why should Microsoft listen to people who will never buy their products anyway either because they don't want to betray Jobs or because they dislike the company. When legitimate users complain about too many Windows versions, it's worth listening to. Not when these people do.

November 14, 2008 3:49 PM
 

DRWAM said:

Isn't it funny that most hardware can support Vista Home preium now, but Video cards will still hold you back from high end games.

November 14, 2008 3:58 PM
 

Lindy said:

"the types of lindy. They're stubborn, arrogant, and believe that Jobs' word is the ultimate truth"

Or the Shark types, jack@$$ from a family of Jack@$$'es so I have read. Defending every single attack on Apple by Paul and hanging on every word of his hero Mike.  So very easy to set off and predictable is as the Sun rising.

For the record I think Steve Jobs is a marketing genius and that is it.  I dont think he has done anything spectacular besides create an image and focus on consumers.  He comes off as odd at best, but then again I have seen him maybe twice in video?

I think Balmer is a complete ignot that is driving MS down the wrong path and he needs to be let go.

I think Gates was/is a true genius period.  Add to that his charity work and he is truly one of a kind.

November 14, 2008 4:02 PM
 

Lindy said:

"but Video cards will still hold you back from high end games."

The main reason console gaming is so much more popular.  Having to constantly upgrade video cards and driver issues has turned man away from PC gaming.

November 14, 2008 4:04 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Lindy

Let's see. I'm the one lucid enough to counter every argument you tossed out and you reply with personal attacks.

Perhaps you have more familiarity with meds and visiting hours than you let on?

November 14, 2008 4:04 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

DRWAM

Games have always been the killer test for what a PC could do even back to the days of barely compatible "IBM Compatibles" when you'd test them with Flight Simulator.

November 14, 2008 4:06 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

RobertsJoe

I assume you're paid by Ocean to come on here and make his posts look good by comparison.

November 14, 2008 4:07 PM
 

johnpapola said:

@Mike,

Talk about being a Hack/Shill apologist for Microsoft!  I don't need to justify why I wanted to purchase via a download, and it should have worked as a real "Full Version"... and tech support should have known WTF they were selling and taken responsibility for it.

When I called Microsoft and they said "we don't really run Windows Marketplace" that was just so unacceptable, it's hard to comprehend.   That it took 4 hours to get to a place where it was clear that NOBODY would take responsibility and BOTH SIDES thought it was a broken system was really outrageous.  At least they were nice and gave me a refund.

But you appear perfectly content to sidestep this very real and honest effort to legitimately buy Windows online and it sucking with "just go buy it at a store".

This is classic Microsoft nonsense.  Doesn't work?  Don't do it!  They put something on the market, have it not work or not robust enough to handle a reasonable range of potential approaches, don't really support it directly, point fingers at third parties for your own failure, and promise to do better next time.

November 14, 2008 4:10 PM
 

shark47 said:

"Or the Shark types, jack@$$ from a family of Jack@$$'es so I have read."

There you go again. The word of a Mac fanatic is the ultimate truth for you. I don't think I belong to your family, though, so the j@ckass reference is incorrect. Hey, isn't it time for your evening prayers at the Jobs temple? Go pray to your deity. J@ck@SS!!

November 14, 2008 4:14 PM
 

Lindy said:

Counter an argument?  I have not once seen you do that on this site.  We are talking about MS naming/version confusion.  

So you side track into OS X version stuff?  

Apple uses numbers they are on 10 now (10.5.5)  Logically it would be 11.  X stands for either the incorporation of NeXt or uniX, I am not sure to be honest nor do I care to look it up its to close to the weekend time.  So we have OS X 10.....11.....12.  Rocket science I know.  Solaris/HP UX/AIX/RedHat/SUSE does the same thing.  So does MS with its server OS.

November 14, 2008 4:18 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

John

Six paragraphs about how one time you got delivered the wrong product on a discontinued web store. Yeah. I'm going to take that as a serious discussion of the new site. It happens. If it happened at an Apple store, based on your history, you'd be apologizing for how you must have been the one who screwed up.

And, my real question was, why did you buy from the old marketplace when you could buy the same product at a much lower price in any brick and mortar store or online site? Since you live in a major city, it's not as though it's hard to find.

Seriously. I've never understood who actually used the old store (or who will use the new one) when Microsoft has a vast distribution channel through all their partners both online and physical.

November 14, 2008 4:21 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Lindy

Actually, the X in OS X stands for TEN and Apple's marketing materials clearly stated that the operating system is to be pronounced OS Ten.

Quoting from support.apple.com/.../TA22541

"The current version of Mac OS is Mac OS X (pronounced "Mac O-S ten"). Earlier versions of Mac OS included Mac OS 9, Mac OS 8, System 7.5, and System 6."

November 14, 2008 4:26 PM
 

shark47 said:

I would still claim that there are several legitimate complaints about Windows and Microsoft, but those are the ones that come from legitimate users, not from the trolls category of lindy, robertsjoe, etc. That would be like the Democratic party taking advice from Sean Hannity. These j@ck@sses do one of two things on this site: whine, when Paul writes something about Apple or criticize Microsoft. And "satire"? You're freaking incoherent as it is, how is someone to know when it's a satire and when it's not?

November 14, 2008 4:33 PM
 

johnpapola said:

@Mike,

Please re-read the post under which these comments are taking place as well as the title.  This issue was very germane to the post.  And I'd have had no significant problem had support not wasted 4 hours of my life back and forth pointing fingers.  That is UNACCEPTABLE.  PERIOD.

But go ahead, keep turning it back toward me.  Don't acknowledge that that was a serious structural problem.  Just justify your apologetics by claiming that I'd do the same with the situation reversed.

No wonder the company has so many issues executing.  No accountability.  ZERO.

November 14, 2008 4:36 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Or, to be specific:

The current version of Mac OS is Mac OS X (pronounced "Mac O-S ten")

Major release 10.5

Update 10.5.5

So, again, the question is what will follow: Mac OS X (pronounced "Mac O-S ten") Major release 10.5?

Mac OS X (pronounced "Mac O-S ten") Major release 10.10?

Mac OS X (pronounced "Mac O-S ten") Major release 11.0?

Mac OS XI (pronounced "Mac O-S eleven") Major release 11.0?

Mac OS XI (pronounced "Mac O-S eleven") Major release 1.0?

November 14, 2008 4:39 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

John

I agree that four hours fixing a screw up on an online store is unacceptable.

And, again, I'm seriously curious why you picked that of all methods to buy a full retail copy of Windows Vista? Unlike the Mac world, there are a LOT of choices for buying Windows.

November 14, 2008 4:41 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

And, of course, the question of what will follow Mac OS X (pronounced "Mac O-S ten") Major release 10.9 is based on the assumption that Apple will not actually release a new full version of the OS prior to release 10.9 (It's not as though they waited for 9.9 before release 10.0 or System 7 release 9 before releasing System 8)

November 14, 2008 4:45 PM
 

subzerohitman721 said:

Back to the original post, since its been dragged off the track, I am glad that MS has created their own store. If it works better than Windows Marketplace, then it would be nice digital outlet for Microsoft products.

However, I do have to agree with johnpapola about the Windows Marketplace. They do give this runaround between Digital River and Microsoft when you come to an issue. I encountered this before and trust me I was not happy about it. Since then I have avoided using the Windows Marketplace.

I think he does have a legit complaint when nobody takes ownership of a customer's issue and nobody steps up to resolve it at the point of sale. You generally get one time to make or break a customer. When you break that confidence, its really hard to get it back.

So yeah, I'm a guy who runs Windows Vista, who has issues with Windows Marketplace. Microsoft needs to step in with its customer service and resolve things quickly. Or if Digital River is point contact of resolution, they need to step up. But leaving customers in limbo is absolutely wrong. Apple does do a slightly better job here.

November 14, 2008 5:07 PM
 

DRWAM said:

That's the beauty of buying a cheap laptop [or desktop for that matter]. It makes left over money for a gaming console. It's just easier for many to buy both.

Are Xbox games less expensive at Marketplace and how is the selection comparable to a retail store?

November 14, 2008 5:26 PM
 

panache1023 said:

Mike Galos,

It seems like you are suggesting that if Apple updates Mac OS X to a POINT 10 release, (ie, 10.10), that they are saying it is 10 and TEN TENTHS....especially when you say things like "It's not as though they waited for 9.9 before release 10.0".

If that is what you are saying...get real....

Just curious....did MS update Windows 5.0 all the way up to 5.9 before they bumped the number to 6.0?

Did they update 6.0 to 6.9 before they decided to call their next version Windows 7?

Again, just curious.

November 14, 2008 6:47 PM
 

Déjà vu: Microsoft opens US online store with software downloads | Microsoft News Tracker said:

Pingback from  Déjà vu: Microsoft opens US online store with software downloads | Microsoft News Tracker

November 14, 2008 6:50 PM
 

chuckb84 said:

Hoo boy. Mike, you do better evasions and change of subject than anyone I've seen posting here. The discussion is poorer for it.

Back on the original topic, we have some 3rd party commentary.

Microsoft Opens Online Store: I'm Not Impressed

Ian Paul, PC World

www.pcworld.com/.../microsoft_opens_online_store_im_not_impressed.html

But, so what, right? Just another icabalist working for PC world....

November 14, 2008 7:03 PM
 

shark47 said:

"Hoo boy. Mike, you do better evasions and change of subject than anyone I've seen posting here. The discussion is poorer for it."

So, does lindy decide the topic of discussion? I didn't think so.

The author of the post that you linked to does not like the store because prices are too high compared to Amazon and some other stores. That's a legitimate complaint. That said, I would agree with the two commentators on that blog:

"Actually if a manufacturer sold a product directly to a consumer for less that recommended retail price, not only would they lose the outside vendors, but would probably find themselves with a lawsuit.

I have not made up my mind whether this is ignorance of retail commerce practices or bias against Microsoft."

The problem is that there are some people who will find fault with MS, not matter what the company does. I don't think the company should listen to these people. Another thing is, if I have a legitimate complaint about Microsoft, there is no way I'm going to discuss it on this blog. It acts as fodder for the iJihadists here and the discussion quickly spirals into a meaningless flame war.

The growth in the number of iJihadists is a dangerous trend because it makes it difficult to have a meaningful  and unbiased discussion about anything Microsoft does, in my opinion.

November 14, 2008 7:25 PM
 

johnpapola said:

@Mike,

I just tried the online approach because I thought it'd be fast and it was priced cheaper.  I'm also generally not a fan of paying to have bits shipped around in trucks when we have the beautiful internet.

That it was a miserable failure compounded by a support nightmare was not what I was hoping for.... but was certainly not a surprise either.

As for your completely bizarre slam:

"Unlike the Mac world, there are a LOT of choices for buying Windows."

What are you even talking about?  You can buy OSX at Apple stores, Best Buys, thousands of independent retailers and of course a fine range of online outlets.  

But unlike the Microsoft world, you don't get a choice of people to point the finger away from themselves for support.  Apple provides the best in the business and takes responsibility for their products and retail experiences.

This whole "choice" argument from Apple-bashers is very tired. Clearly the Apple ecosystem is big enough to underpin a growing userbase that's dramatically happier with their computers than Windows users on average.

November 14, 2008 7:47 PM
 

deepfry said:

Okay way late to the party here but I can't believe someone remembers HoTMetaL! I only say that because I worked for Softquad (makers of aforesaid product) just before they got bought out by Corel...they were great to work for, but their reverse-buyout IPO was pretty messed up - and it happened right as the dot-com bubble was bursting so it was a double-whammy.

Anyways thanks for the trip down memory lane Mike!

November 14, 2008 8:13 PM
 

gorath said:

@Johnpapola Whilst the apple support team is generally helpful, I have witnessed a few nightmare scenarios, where there was much finger pointing going on.

for example, I've now seen several producers buy a turnkey music production system from a certified apple reseller, only to have it arrived completely unconfigured - that is to say, had they bought the individual components themselves, they'd have been in the same situation. all apart from one, who didn't even receive the software disks he should have got.

Or another user, who was sold a turnkey system only to find out that the new OSX version (leopard, at the time) was completely unsupported for some of the pre-set options of his chosen package. That issue was sadly, and uncharacteristically, never resolved.

But, on the whole they are good, but remember that there are horror stories on both sides.

Unfortunately, MS's policy of making the vendor offer support doesn't seem to have sunk in with it's vendors. Many times, they'll refer you to MS themselves, when they should be capable, and responsible for your system directly. However, under those circumstances, it may be unfair (although not entirely illogical) to blame MS, as the terms are there in black and white.

And for what it's worth, I'd like to mention Rain systems and Merging as the perfect example of how client support should be handled. Absolutely no hassle, truly professional, and jaw-droppig turnaround.

I've witnessed a support ticket being issued in the morning, and a replacement system arrive within hours so work could continue. now THAT is customer support.

They have become my absolute gold standard benchmark by which all others are judged.

November 14, 2008 8:18 PM
 

gorath said:

Oh, yeah, about HoTMetaL, an HoTMaiL - That is fascinating!

Learn something everyday :-)

cheers for the heads up on that one, Mike.

November 14, 2008 8:19 PM
 

johnpapola said:

@gorath,

With all due respect, the instances of support headaches you are referring to are entirely and truly third party issues.  VARs that package together components from many manufacturers such as those in our business (entertainment) for content workstations are not an Apple issue or an Apple ecosystem issue.

This isn't an apology or excuse.  It's just a fact.  A shop that claims they're going to build you a complete protools system and doesn't deliver it well is not subject to any Apple guidelines that I'm aware of.  That'd be like blaming Dell or Microsoft for garbage support from The Geek Squad.

Nobody's support is perfect and neither is Apple's.  But their track record with my stuff is essentially flawless for the past 7 years.

What I'm talking about is The Windows Marketplace, which was directly linked from microsoft.com when you clicked "buy windows" and was skinned to look and feel precisely like Microsoft.com.  

November 14, 2008 8:41 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Panache,

Actually, my point was that the mix of X is pronounced 10 but really it isn't version 10 but the point release number is the version but it isn't really the version but really you count the real version number by taking the 10 off and adding one so that 10.0 is the version 1 and 10.5 is version 6 but really they're all version 10 but then version 10.9 will be really OS X 10's 10th release but ...

You get my point. The lack of real versioning already causes confusion (Is 10.5 a point release from 10.4? Is 10.5 a major OS release like going from System 6 to System 7?) but when it gets to 10.10 it'll get insane.

Apple has gotten themselves into a mess by using X/10 as both a brand and a version. (Something that Microsoft will hopefully learn from before we get Windows 7 release 7.6)

November 14, 2008 8:43 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos"Of course, if we really want to talk about schizophrenic naming, just wait to see what the version of Apple's OS X after 10.9 will be.

OS X 10.10?

OS X 11.0?

OS XI 11.0?

OS XI 1.0?"

Don't be so daft. I'm sure it will be something succinct and simple. Not the "Windows Vista for Small Businesses that Work From an Office, Professional Edition" Branding, naming and marketing is something Microsoft does not do well. Not well at all. Whatever it's called there'll be one version for desktops and one for server. That's it. And you keep on harping about the supposed superiority of having so many Vista versions. What is it now? Vista 2? Or soon to be? Windows 7, is it? Don't know. They have such a horrible brand in Vista it's no wonder they are already running away from it. Having so many versions is the INFERIOR option. Everyone knows this. Less is more.

"Yeah. Having choices is a horror."

You are quite a complete and utter apologist. Do some reading on marketing, branding and the like. Most agree, less is more. The whole Vista thing is a complete and total mess. It is, and was since the beginning, a marketing and branding failure. That is why they are moving away from the Vista brand with unlucky 7.

"I'm starting to understand why Apple thinks a two button mouse is too complex for their fans."

And the Microsoft way? Give them 38 buttons. To activate buttons 36, 37 and 38 you need to fire up regedit.exe and hack the registry settings. Simple. That's how Microsoft does things.

Yeah, really! Because that is SO superior. Stupid, yes. Superior, no.

November 14, 2008 8:44 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

For another example of how bad MS is at naming their products. Look at the list of Office versions:

Office Standard 2007

Office Home and Student 2007

Office Mobile

Office Small Business 2007

Office Professional 2007

Office Professional Plus 2007

Office Enterprise 2007

Office Ultimate 2007

Look at Apple's iWork. Yep, that's it. iWork. Just the one. That's reason 1,239,483 why Microsoft is so lame.

Yeah, that is superior. God, you guys, like MS, just don't get it.

November 14, 2008 8:47 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

Yet another example of Microsoft's choice upon choice.

www.microsoft.com/.../editions-overview.aspx

9.. NINE! Editions of Server 2008. OS X Server editions. ONE!

November 14, 2008 8:49 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos: "Apple has gotten themselves into a mess by using X/10 as both a brand and a version. "

You're the only person I've ever read say that. But of course, you're opinion doesn't count. There is no mess. Stop making things up. Are you the ghost writer, or the writer, of Supersite for Windows by any chance? There is no mess. No one thinks there is. Only you. The only mess is with Microsoft's naming. With Vista desktops and servers. Many, many of them.

November 14, 2008 8:55 PM
 

johnpapola said:

@robertsjoe,

"You're the only person I've ever read say that"

I was just about to write the same thing when I scrolled down to see your reply.  Welcome to the wonderful, parallel universe of Mike Galos.  It's a world where Apple is a monopolist with 50% marketshare in music players and 4% share in computers.  A world where the Mac platform is in danger of becoming OS/2 while the WWDC sells out in a week and new developers are flocking to OSX and the iPhone.  A world where Apple no longer does any innovation despite the incredible iPhone, probably the single biggest leap in personal computing this decade.  And yes, a world where Apple's single OS version with striking imagery and big, bold cat names is cause for mass confusion by consumers who instead focus on the numerical naming that is rarely referenced by any of Apple's own marketing.

Each of these points is pulled from Mike's repeated and long standing talking points on this site, in case you thought I was just making all of this up (because it does sound like something made up out of thin air).

November 14, 2008 9:08 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

If you ever wonder why MS is so lame - the new big and boring IBM of computers - look no further than their leader.

au.youtube.com/watch

A company is influenced by its leaders. And as you see with Ballmer, as with Gates before him, the lack of taste and style seeps its way in to every employee in the organization. And that then all goes in to the products they make. And then, of course, it affects the people it attracts. And that's the Microsoft ecosystem you see today. From Paul at his Supersite for all things anti-Apple, to Mike, to all the rest of the fanboys.

November 14, 2008 9:14 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@johnpapola: I'm concerned that Mike has lost the plot. His rants have as much integrity (none) as the blog posts he's defending.

November 14, 2008 9:15 PM
 

TrevinC said:

Hi everyone,

I'm the Lead Program Manager for Microsoft Store.  I could barely get through all the comments.  Wow, talk about a lot of topics being discussed at the same time :)

I just wanted to quickly address the issue over browser compatibility that was raised by quite a few people.

We aren't doing anything nefarious and strove for the best browser compatibility we could to address the majority of our expected user base. In particular, we have targeted compatibility for IE, Firefox and Safari.  

In doing some adhoc testing, we were also pleasantly surprised to find that Google Chrome works really well.  We put some last minute tweaks in to solve some rendering issues that were easy to fix.

As with any software/service release, there are bound to be bugs and we are working to fix them.

Hope this helps clarify any speculation on scheming on our part :)

November 14, 2008 9:18 PM
 

kanwaljit said:

A quick question for for all you Apple Evangelists.. How much does Apple pay you to come and spew out your venom on this blog, particularly since you do not like this website so much? It was not even a post related to Apple, yet lotsamystuff had to come dragging his *ss, acting all big and bad, highjacking the post, and the others have carried on!

No seriously, how much does Apple pay you btw?

And johnpapola, I thought you said you were leaving this site for good, didn't you. We thought you will never return to bless all us ignorants with The Truth? Couldn't stay away? We didn't miss you, btw..

Robertsjoe is a typical typical Apple fanboi/fangirl.. Reminds me of my room mate who actually had a big argument with me when I dared to buy a PC instead of a Mac that he wanted me to do.. At the time, I thought he was just plain Nuts, an exception, but I see here that it is the norm with you Apple'ites.. No where, I really mean no where else have I seen some so passionately mad on, of all things, a computer?????????

Btw, I must tell you that I also use a mac, and really do like it.. I like Windows also..

November 14, 2008 9:59 PM
 

RaaJ said:

Hey @sshat! Microsoft change client OS name every version!

Going from Vista to 7 is not leaving the Vista brand behind. It seems that the iSuckups have started the misinformation campaign at earnest, out of fear that their hard work painting Vista as a black sheep will go for naught when a new version of Windows comes out.

Ergo, the propaganda campaign branding 7 as Vista 2 at every turn. Truly pathetic.

November 14, 2008 10:02 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@kanwaljit: "No seriously, how much does Apple pay you btw?"

Not a cent. Certainly not the case with Paul and Mike. They must get paid truck-loads. You'd have to for someone to be so enthused about such a mediocre company.

November 14, 2008 10:26 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@raaj: You watch as Vista is put in the trash by the time 7 comes out. It is a bad brand. Badly tarnished and has a bad odour about it. And deservedly so, BTW.

November 14, 2008 10:27 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

"Going from Vista to 7 is not leaving the Vista brand behind."

The real shame is that you've all bought in to a dud. Vista 2 (um or is it Windows 7?) is more of the same.

November 14, 2008 10:28 PM
 

tayme said:

Could somebody please count the versions here? Amazon is a Retail outlet, right?

www.amazon.com/.../ref=nb_ss_gw

What is the version number of Windows 7 going to be again?

There are multiple places to buy OS X (Pronounced ten)

www.amazon.com/.../ref=nb_ss_sw_1_4

www.bestbuy.com/.../olspage.jsp;jsessionid=0GYC4HRDKNEV5KC4D3NVAHA

store.apple.com/.../A

I am sure that there are others, as well.

Again...these arguments are stupid...and mikegalos, I hope you are still having fun, because I am as I read your now ignorant rants.

--tayme

November 14, 2008 10:31 PM
 

shark47 said:

@papola:

"This is classic Microsoft nonsense.  Doesn't work?  Don't do it!  They put something on the market, have it not work or not robust enough to handle a reasonable range of potential approaches, don't really support it directly, point fingers at third parties for your own failure, and promise to do better next time."

"No wonder the company has so many issues executing.  No accountability.  ZERO."

Using one incident to draw conclusions about the company is pretty silly, IMHO. You might want to think about it before pointing fingers at mike.

Also, in most cases, it's not mike that changes the topic. It's usually an iJihadist, and their tribe sure is increasing over here.

Again, the presence of these iTrolls means that there is no scope for a meaningful conversation about technology on this site.

Also, I think people need to start ignoring lindy 2, sp1 (aka robertsjoe) and Paul needs to stop posting about Apple for a while, so that he goes away sooner.

:-)

November 14, 2008 11:04 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@tayme: Mike's points are pointless. I bet Apple will give the OS a new name by the time they need to go past 10.9. He's really trying to grasp something that's not there. He's the only cheerleader in that camp. He can't shy away from Microsoft's ridiculous number of Vista editions. The number of Windows Server editions is also a joke.

November 14, 2008 11:07 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@shark47: "Again, the presence of these iTrolls means that there is no scope for a meaningful conversation about technology on this site."

Given the original content (and I use that loosely) of the posts, there is no scope for conversation from the start.

".. and Paul needs to stop posting about Apple for a while, so that he goes away sooner."

I bet this will not be possible. Look at the history of the blog. Over 25% of posts are anti-Apple bashing or about Apple. You only have anything of interest on the blog when it's about Apple (even when it's anti-Apple). Microsoft has no attraction, nothing cool. They are the new IBM. Just look at this factoid: img511.imageshack.us/.../supersiteformicrosoftfatu1.png

November 14, 2008 11:11 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@raaj: "Hey @sshat! Microsoft change client OS name every version!"

Really? Like Windows 95 to Windows 98? To Windows 2000? I don't think so.

November 14, 2008 11:12 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

25 years of the most vile piece of software ever created. Virus, spy-ware ridden piece of blue screens of death. www.edbott.com/weblog  The world is certainly a worse place for it.

November 14, 2008 11:13 PM
 

tayme said:

@robertsjoe - I also get a kick out of the ignorant rants that you post, such as "25 years of the most vile piece of software ever created. Virus, spy-ware ridden piece of blue screens of death. www.edbott.com/weblog  The world is certainly a worse place for it." You and mikegalos are perfect for eachother and should consider joining forces to become the greatest troll under any bridge.

--tayme

November 14, 2008 11:48 PM
 

RaaJ said:

robertsjoe:

Do you even comprehend what you are typing? I doubt it. Let me reiterate it once again.

Microsoft changes the name of every major client OS. Like Windows Vista is being succeeded by Windows 7. Just like Windows XP was succeeded by Windows Vista.

I doubt you already knew that. If your only reason for being on this site is to flamebait Windows enthusiasts, you are doing a wonderful job, so typical of the rabid mob of iSuckups on the net these days. If this is the kind of 'style' and 'class' you keep harping Microsoft lacks, then I am better off for it.

November 14, 2008 11:48 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@tayme: " Virus, spy-ware ridden piece of blue screens of death"

This is completely accurate.

November 14, 2008 11:49 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@raaj: Yeah, because from Windows 95, to Windows 98, to Windows 2000, to Windows XP it's really a big name change. And if you say just major, XP was major, there is no name change. Just XP. Then you got a name change with Vista. And look how badly that worked out.

November 14, 2008 11:51 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Two quick comments:

1) If I have my dates correct, Ed Bott is wrong. The 25th Anniversary of Microsoft announcing Windows 1 is on this coming Thursday.

2) There are 4 retail versions of Windows Vista. I know I've said that multiple times today but somehow it's hard for some people to realize that they either are supposed to be confused by that simple a choice or admit that their iCabal friends and Fearless Leader have been lying to them by telling them how confusing all those Windows choices are and they can't deal with the cognitive dissonance when reality conflicts so strongly with the party line.

(What seems to have confused tayme this time is thinking somehow that he's a System Builder - their versions require you to actually build systems for retail resale and aren't retail products - Waethorn can tell you all about that, I'm sure.)

November 15, 2008 12:47 AM
 

bettieblu said:

Wow its 1:15am where I am walked into my office to shut off my computers before going to bed after some good times with Call of Duty World at War....PS3 edition.  Great game!!!

Anyhow I am simply amazed Mike you are still chomping at the bit ALL DAY LONG, over some trivial crap like how many versions of Vista there are.

I doubt very much some official is going to drop in on this blog and declare someone the winner.  No one cares.  4, 5, 6 the exact number is not important.  The very fact there is a dispute and you KEEP posting there is only 4, proves Paul's point.

"and this will lead to consumer and business confusion, which is never a good thing."

I will write Microsoft and see if they can create a special Xbox Live Achievement for you  "500 points winsupersite blog lifer" :)

Try this on for a few days.  Don't post here until Monday.  It will do you a world of good.  It will, I hope, make you realize how insignificant this blog is.

November 15, 2008 1:22 AM
 

gorath said:

@johnpapola

"What are you even talking about?  You can buy OSX at Apple stores, Best Buys, thousands of independent retailers and of course a fine range of online outlets.  

But unlike the Microsoft world, you don't get a choice of people to point the finger away from themselves for support.  Apple provides the best in the business and takes responsibility for their products and retail experiences."

then

"With all due respect, the instances of support headaches you are referring to are entirely and truly third party issues.  VARs that package together components from many manufacturers such as those in our business (entertainment) for content workstations are not an Apple issue or an Apple ecosystem issue."

Actually, the people responsible for these systems were designated something along the lines of apple-certified resellers, or similar. I can't remember the exact wording. Also, Logic was causing some headaches, which, as you should know, is now an Apple product.

However, my main point was that if you do buy from a third party, and not from apple themselves, you CAN find yourself in a situation where everyone's pointing fingers at each other.

The reseller is blaming apple (wrongly in my opinion), apple is blaming the reseller, and it goes round and round.

However, I will still admit that apple's support is on th whole, very very good. I just wanted to illustrate that things can and do go wrong sometimes.

November 15, 2008 6:20 AM
 

johnpapola said:

"And johnpapola, I thought you said you were leaving this site for good, didn't you. We thought you will never return to bless all us ignorants with The Truth?"

I only entered this thread because I wanted to share that horrible experience with Windows Marketplace.  I hope the Microsoft Store is a dramatic improvement over that.  The perpetual re-download deal looks great.

@Gorath,

You're point is reasonable, but I still contend that there is a big difference between a VAR that's bundling a collection of products from different vendors into a turnkey system and a PC maker like Dell or the Windows Marketplace.

In any event, have a great weekend everyone.

November 15, 2008 7:26 AM
 

DRWAM said:

It does confuse some that there are 32 bit and 64 bit versions of Vista as well. I often get asked about it. I have no problem with 4 versions which are kinda obvious which most people need, but when you throw in the 32 vs 64 bit version, many scratch their head.

November 15, 2008 7:29 AM
 

gorath said:

and the upgrade V full versions, of course.

@ johnpapola. I realise that your experience with the windows marketplace was absolutely crap. I'm not trying to detract from that.

November 15, 2008 7:34 AM
 

johnpapola said:

On an unrelated side-note...

I watched a movie on netflix.com via Silverlight 2 on my mac... and wow.  Awesome.  I'm VERY impressed with Silverlight's video quality and responsiveness.

Microsoft makes plenty of impressive products.  Windows just isn't one of them for me.

November 15, 2008 7:56 AM
 

chuckb84 said:

@Tayme,

"Could somebody please count the versions here? Amazon is a Retail outlet, right?

www.amazon.com/.../ref=nb_ss_gw"

4.

Mike says there are 4, so it must be four! Who are you gonna believe, Mike or your own lying eyes?

November 15, 2008 7:58 AM
 

chuckb84 said:

On the amazon software link for Vista. I havent' had my OS X koolaid yet this AM, so I'm still a fair guy. Here's the similar link for OS X:

www.amazon.com/.../ref=sr_nr_i_1

There are a lot of hits, but only the top 2 say "Leopard" 10.5. The single user version and the family pack.

Just trying to be fair, something all too unusual from the Win-rhetoricians found here.

November 15, 2008 8:01 AM
 

shark47 said:

There's no doubt there are many more Windows versions than OS X versions. Again, that's not a fair comparison to make. Apple DOES NOT need to make too much money from software. It's a hardware company. OS X runs on Apple's hardware. Microsoft is a freaking software company. They make money by selling software. That's the reason for the number of versions, to cover as much of the market as possible. Is it confusing? Probably. I don't like the names and I wish Home Basic would go extinct like some of the Apple trolls here. It does now, however, affect most PC buyers. And having different versions might actually benefit consumers because people buying consumer OSs don't have to pay as much as people buying business OSs.

That's the reason you have so many different Office versions. Why doesn't Microsoft simply sell Office Ultimate to everyone at a higher price? Because most consumers don't care for 80% of the bundled software available in that suite.

Also, Mike's not lying when he says there are four retail versions of Windows. Split those four into upgrade/full versions, 32-bit/64-bit and that's where you have so many results coming up.

November 15, 2008 8:32 AM
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