WinInfo Daily News   |   Windows IT Pro
in

SuperSite Blog

$500 million in advertising??? Did I use the Jump the Shark joke already?

Let’s recap.

Apple has spent the last 2+ years mocking Windows Vista in advertising. God knows what they’ve spent on these ads over this time, but whatever.

Microsoft, to their detriment, failed to respond to these ads for almost two years. They did, however, spend this time improving Vista, most notably with Service Pack 1 (SP1) and the many other updates that shipped before and since. It’s worth noting, too, that the biggest problems with Vista were caused by third parties in the Windows ecosystem, but whatever.

This year, finally, Microsoft decided to respond to Apple’s ads—many of which made untrue claims, by the way—with their own series of ads. These include The Mohave Experiments ads, the Gates/Seinfeld series, and, of course, the excellent I’m A PC ads, which celebrate the diversity of the one billion plus PC users worldwide and what they accomplish every day with Windows. These latter ads, especially, make the Apple “I’m a Mac, I’m a PC” ads look arrogant and out of touch. Because they are.

Apple responded, as only they can, with more “I’m a Mac, I’m a PC” ads. (Hey, stick to what you know.) These included some ads that focused, inexplicably, on Microsoft’s advertising campaigns and how the software giant should have spent that money—$300 million, supposedly, though Microsoft has never confirmed that number—on “fixing Vista” instead of advertising. As noted above, Microsoft had “fixed” Vista a long long time before the ads appeared. And as I noted at the time, too, maybe Apple itself should have fixed its own incredibly buggy recent products—MobileMe, iPhone/iPhone 3G, and Leopard among them—instead of hypocritically and falsely calling out a competitor. (The Apple Way, incidentally, is ship first, ask questions later. Apple customers are all beta testers. It’s the reverse of how tech products are typically developed.)

Well, guess what?

Apple spent $486 million on advertising last year, $467 million the year before, and $338 million in 2006.

Ahahahaha.

Here’s the thing. Microsoft and Apple both spend a ton of money on advertising. They’re both big companies with big reach. Of course, Microsoft has more reach globally while Apple plays mostly in the US and other rich nations, which actually puts the numbers in even better perspective. But if the notion of Apple actually producing insider ads—in which it rags on a competitor for, get this, advertising—ads that, by the way, the typical consumers who seem them won’t even get—didn’t rile you at the time, they should now that we know how much it spent.

BTW, Microsoft spent $959.5 million in advertising last year. But then they’re considerably bigger than Apple, compete in far more product segments, and are in far more markets worldwide. So that makes sense. And let’s be clear: That budget is for all of the company’s many products but didn’t include any Windows advertising at all. If Microsoft did spend $300 million on advertising Windows this year, that was a first. And it must have spent about, what?, $17 to $19 (not a typo, just a joke) advertising Windows Mobile and Zune combined in the past year. Those are the only two other Microsoft products that compete with Apple products.

So. Apple spent more on ads over the past three years at least than Microsoft did on its competitive products. And it was Apple, not Microsoft, that then released ads mocking the other company … for spending money advertising.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Thanks to the many people who wrote in about this.

Published Nov 22 2008, 11:00 AM by pthurrott
Filed under: ,

Comments

 

tayme said:

Amazing...companies that have advertising budgets. Truly spectacular news. Thanks Paul...Oh, and speaking of advertising, this should generate a ton of hits for your site over the weekend. mikegalos and robertsjoe will make sure of that for you...nice job!!!

--tayme

November 22, 2008 9:08 AM
 

Delmont said:

I am just glad whenever the actual truth is reported on Apple.

Again, I use both Windows and a Mac. But I'm sick of the Apple lies.  The continual Apple lies just keeps making it harder for me to support Apple.  I will keep using a Mac. But to keep supporting the company...very tough.

November 22, 2008 9:16 AM
 

Delmont said:

Tayme:

Does it come natural for you to always apologize for Apple?

November 22, 2008 9:17 AM
 

tayme said:

@Delmont - I don't see an apology for any company. You might be surprised, but I am not an Apple fanboy. In fact, I prefer MS products. Go back and read this site and Wininfo and you will figure it out. It is mikegalos and robertsjoe and those types of blinder wearing fanatics that I try to egg on here. They just don't get it. If you are saying that because I push mikegalos buttons, then you must be as single visioned as him.

--tayme

November 22, 2008 9:25 AM
 

jcstene said:

With all due respect, Paul, I think you missed the point entirely.  Apple was not mocking Microsoft for how much (total) money they spent on advertising, the point of the ad was Apple pointing their finger at Microsoft for spending money on advertising Vista rather than spending money on fixing the problems with Vista, which is in IMO, an entirely different message than the one your referring to.

November 22, 2008 9:32 AM
 

shark47 said:

Yes, Paul, Microsoft had all of $300 mn. in the bank that they decided to spend on advertising. How will they fund their R&D program now?

November 22, 2008 9:54 AM
 

kalewallace said:

The thing is: most people who see these ads are glued to their TV during some ridiculous NBC primetime programming. These people don't know any different than to see how 'cool' having a mac or iPod really is. Last time I checked, these ads have been pretty popular and effective. I reprimand people on a constant basis that say Vista is horrible and they can't wait to buy a mac.

I think Microsoft needs to step above the mudslinging and get back to relating to the customer. This is something that Apple has failed to do as of late (app store clusterf*ck). Getting personal with the customer and showing exactly what all your products/services can do is the only way to go in my book. Don't stoop to the level of Apple, Microsoft. You're much to good for that.

November 22, 2008 10:30 AM
 

nutts said:

I guess it's a slow news day Paul, and you needed some traffic viewing your hideous ads.

Thank you jcstene for pointing out where Paul went wrong in completely missing the point, so at least I don't have to.

November 22, 2008 10:37 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

You can tell what a company values by where they spend their money. The problem isn't so much the raw amount spent on advertising, it's more a matter of how they split the pie since that tells us what they value rather than just how deep their pockets are (and both of these companies have very deep pockets)

Let's look at the amount of money each company has after operational expenses to spend on income versus R&D versus advertising and see how they allocate that money.

R&D

Microsoft puts 31.7% into R&D, Apple puts 15.2%

Advertising

Microsoft puts 5.9% into Ads, Apple puts 9.1%

Income

So, basically, when both companies decide where to spend their profits, Microsoft puts twice as much as Apple into R&D and Apple puts twice as much as Microsoft into Advertising

Source data from Robert McLaws at Windows Now

www.windows-now.com/.../apple-should-count-its-own-beans-first.aspx

November 22, 2008 10:52 AM
 

lehenbauer said:

The Apple ads... helped to generate billions in profits for Apple.  Seeing Paul wax apoplectic?  Priceless.

November 22, 2008 10:57 AM
 

RunTimeError said:

Come on Paul. I'm pretty sure Apple doesn't spend their entire advertising budget on just the I'm A Mac/PC ads. There are also the iPod and iPhone ads to consider.

In comparison, MS is spending 300 million of their 959 million (read: nearly one third of their budget last year) on a single product.

You're just as good as "twisting facts" as the ad guys at Apple are.

November 22, 2008 10:58 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Or, in really simple terms (using the same data as I used in the previous post)

Apple's Ad budget is 60% as big as their R&D budget

Microsoft's Ad budget is 19% as big as their R&D budget

or

Apple's R&D budget is less than double their Ad budget

Microsoft's R&D budget is over five times their Ad budget

November 22, 2008 10:59 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

btw: It could just be they've stopped targeting my demographic but has anyone noticed a pleasant lack of "I'm a Mac" ads lately? Its almost as if Apple got their two "Microsoft is spending money on advertising" ironyfests out there, saw that the polling numbers, realized that the joke was on Apple and cancelled their November ad buys.

I also notice that ads for new laptops now all seem to have a Windows logo tag at the end similar to the old "Intel inside chime" so I'd guess Microsoft is spending some money on comarketing with PC vendors.

November 22, 2008 11:04 AM
 

lehenbauer said:

@Mikegalos: You assume the companies get the same R&D value per dollar spent on R&D (and advertising, for that matter.)  Few would disagree that Apple's advertising has been more effective than Microsoft's in the last few years.  Certainly it's *possible* that Apple's R&D could be more effective as well.

Said another way, you could put 100% of your income into R&D and produce nothing if your R&D processes are ineffective.

November 22, 2008 11:06 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

lehenbauer

I just posted the numbers. There are lots of ways to draw conclusions that aren't based on actual data.

For exampe, I could say that Microsoft's advertising and R&D mix have given them 96% of the global market to Apple's 3.5% and conclude that Microsoft's advertising is clearly more effective since they don't spend 27x as much as Apple but get a 27x greater return. I could draw the conclusion that Apple's advertising program is effective at keeping their existing base amused but terrible at driving sales.

Now, I'm not saying that's necessarily true. It IS, however, as valid an interpretation as the one you posted as a "few would disagree" factoid.

Either way, though, the facts are:

Apple spends a higher percentage of their cash on advertising

Microsoft spends a higher percentage of their cash on R&D

November 22, 2008 11:21 AM
 

DRWAM said:

Actually, MS doesn't really need to advertise Vista as much since other companies sell their product in their computers, such as Dell, Acer, HP,etc..So I'm not impressed, although a 300 million dollar new campaign is in addition to prior money spent within the 1 Billion dollar budget. On the other hand, Apple needs to market as they have no computer company [except Psystar :)] to sell the OS. Apple is their own hardware company. The ads aren't fair, but they are satire and sarcasm, and don't seem to be hurting Microsoft even a little. I have seen worse ads by MS partners [recently, HP] to sell AV software and malware protection, by stating that Vista systems are getting attacked in and infesting and 'taking over your entire infrastructure' of the entire company in a few minutes, in less than the time to call IT support. These were on TV and the radio.

 Apple is laughing all the way to the bank, and MS is still spending more on something that costs much less to manufacture [Vista vs Apple computers]. But Mike, there are plenty of Apple commercials on the SciFi channel, but A real nice Vista commercial  [a better Mojave one than the first ones] was on as well as Nice Zune commercials.

November 22, 2008 11:40 AM
 

clindhartsen said:

Awhile back, probably a few months, it seemed like there was a Zune ad between every program on [adult-swim] (Cartoon Network late night). Rather cool, shirting movement over records exchanging hands or something, mentioning the Zune Pass for 15 bucks a month. Still, the Apple ads don't seem as plentiful lately, though maybe that's my lack of TV watching as of late.

Truly though, have we seen more out of Microsoft Research than many may think, and for that matter, have they actually contributed more to the computing world than Apple? If anyone has any examples to list, I'd love to see them (and to note, I am not against MS if that's how the way I phrased it sounds)

November 22, 2008 11:51 AM
 

DRWAM said:

I guess another  bottom line is that if Microsoft stopped advertising Vista, they would still sell millions of licenses to Dell, Acer, HP and others. If Apple stopped advertising Macs or leopard, they would close shop as they would not be selling them anymore, or at least to any degree as they see now. So this post is a little unfounded. No Macs ads, no money. No Vista ads, big money.

Dang, I just remembered a little about the SciFi ad the showed 'mojaveexperiment' at the end. It showed some charity stuff that Vista was involved, but I can't remember specifics. Then A Dell and HP ad showed the hardware and Vista software's ability, one with Fergie, and the other with another celeb. But MS didn't need to pay a dime for them obviously. So Obviously, there are billions of dollars advertising Vista by other companies. Duh! But at least they show what the hardware and software can do.

November 22, 2008 11:53 AM
 

DRWAM said:

Clind, I see an iPhone ad on almost every channel I surf, a few each hour sometimes. You would think that showing the abilities of the iPhone proved a great method for driving sales. So why don't they do it Leopard, iMacs,MacBooks, etc...

Also, MS Live stuff,which is free, has some wonderful offerings. And now Mesh for Leopard! Exchange support for iPhone. MS sounds like a good partner for Apple, and I almost forgot Office in that respect.

November 22, 2008 12:00 PM
 

DRWAM said:

OK gents, I have been posting in between sets while lifting, but I'm done now. So be nice while I'm gone.

PS

Our grade school uses XP on most machines, but they still have the COA sticker for Windows 98 on all the boxes!!!! I guess if they can't afford new computers, they couldn't afford Vista upgrades, which probably could not be installed on the ancient computers. All the ads in the world most likely wouldn't get them to buy a Vista PC or a Mac. Sales are gonna get tight out there now.

Peace,

Doc

November 22, 2008 12:09 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

DRWAM

Actually, if you see a Windows logo at the end of a Dell or HP ad then Microsoft did spend money on the ad. The hardware company paid most of it but the Microsoft bit at the end wasn't done for free. It's like when you see a newspaper ad from a local camera shop featuring the latest Nikon. While the shop paid for the ad, Nikon wrote the shop a check in exchange for featuring their product and probably provided the artwork.

The best example was intel paying for inclusion of the 4-note Intel Inside chime. They didn't pay that much to get it added to all those ads and that little 4-note tune is one of the most recognized songs in the world (according to an Advertising Age article I saw a few years ago)

btw: I've been watching SciFi as well and while I've seen a few Apple ads, I haven't been seeing Macintosh ads like "Bake Sale" or "Bean Counter" in a while or any ads on the new laptops. Most of the "Apple" ads I have seen have actually been AT&T ads for the iPhone. Come to think of it, while I've seen some iPod Touch ads, I also haven't seen any of the nano ads in a while, either.

On the other hand, I've seen a bunch of the new MojaveExperiment ads from the tour and a bunch of the new "I'm a PC" ads featuring people's home video.

November 22, 2008 12:14 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

clindhartsen

The thing about Microsoft Research is that when their stuff shows up in a product you generally don't know about it. While some are visible (like Surface or ClearType or the disk system in Windows Home Server or Photosynth), most of them are improved algorithms that show up in things like HPC Server or SQL Server or the caching in Vista or the enhancements to Live Photo.

And, of course, a lot of them end up in competitor's products as well since MSR's mission is to publish academic papers and getting code into Microsoft products is only a secondary part of how the researchers are evaluated. (In fact, getting some of the researchers to talk to product groups is a tricky task that takes a fair amount of finesse since that isn't their mandate and they'd rather be in the lab)

November 22, 2008 12:20 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

DRWAM

"OK gents, I have been posting in between sets while lifting, but I'm done now. So be nice while I'm gone."

What? Leaving without a single mention of the $400 Vista laptop?

Doc, are you feeling OK?

November 22, 2008 12:22 PM
 

whiplash55 said:

Love them or hate them (as I do) the Apple commercials have been effective even if they generally exaggerate or outright lie. Microsoft wasted 2 years by not responding and now the Vista name is poison.

Microsoft needs to deliver and they need their partners to offer products that deliver a decent computing platform. A low end laptop with integrated graphics, 1 gig of ram, old drivers, and a load of crapware isn't going to cut it. People get the computer home and when it runs like crap they blame Vista.

November 22, 2008 12:26 PM
 

chuckb84 said:

When you want to change the subject from numbers you don't like, use percentages. You can do ANYTHING that way. Look at the raw numbers: Microsoft spends over twice as much on advertising as Apple. Normalizing that to the size of the company, the markets they're in, the products they sell, what's bundled and what isn't, captive or non-captive audiences, etc, isn't going to change that.

Microsoft spend $1B on ads and Apple spends under $0.5B.

So, Apple got it right in their ads. And, fellows, it has been obvious all along that the Apple ads are using those apparently-too-sophisticated techniques of irony and sarcasm to make a marketing point. This is also sometimes called "humor". Try it sometime, you might like it.

What frosts Paul and Mike is that the Apple ads are EFFECTIVE, and the late and lame rejoinders from Microsoft have been ineffective. (For example, there was an obvious attempt at humor in the Microsoft ads; it just didn't work.)

And, for the nth time, don't get your panties too much in a twist: Microsoft still outsells Apple in desktop OS by 30:1 :).

This is as much faux outrage as all that twaddle over the "lipstick on a pig" during the late, unlamented presidential campaign.

November 22, 2008 12:30 PM
 

Lindy said:

I dont get it?  Why is it a big deal?  Apple had 25 billion in sales last year, 2007 and is project to hit 40 billion for 2008 and spending 500 million on advertising is bad somehow?  Microsoft had 55 billion in sales last year probably will make 65 this year, and so they spent 1 billion on advertising.  A giant so what!  How is that "jumping the shark" whatever the hell that means anyhow.

The only reason this is a topic at all was because news was made when someone at Microsoft said they were going to finally respond to Apple and then it leaked out that they were adding an extra 300 million for this cause and going with a new add agency for this effort.  It was blog about all over the place.  Many thought it was to repair Vista's over all negative image, right or wrong.

"It’s worth noting, too, that the biggest problems with Vista were caused by third parties in the Windows ecosystem, but whatever."

I would agree with you Paul, that some of the problems were caused by third party vendors but NOT the biggest problems.  Vista changed so much over time, got delayed many times to the point that those vendors just said "whatever ship it then we will support it".  One only has to read this article which is full of Microsoft management emails, so facts not speculation, to know that even Microsoft dropped the ball and was to blame for at least 50% of the problems.

seattlepi.nwsource.com/.../352993_msftvista28.html

Microsoft will pay a price for those emails.

As far as Apple adds, sure I think they are using hype about Windows/Vista PC problems and playing off that.  Often its not totally true, but when is advertising totally truthful?  I have seen way more iPhone, iTouch, Nano and the Macbook Air adds, than I have of those PC vs Mac adds.  So out of the 5 types I have seen, only one attacks Microsoft and the other 4 are showing off their product line.  Funny Mike and the MS gang here would have you believe that Apple never shows off their products only bashes MS products.

I personally think those PC vs Mac adds are lame, but I can see that they have been very effective as I recently read that of the massive Mac sale growth something like 50% of that is from switchers.  Those adds are quick, and drive home a point.  Compare that to the Jerry and Bill adds????  The I am PC adds are really good by the way they need to keep hammering away at them.

I have read you say many times that MS makes most of its money off of corporations through Windows Server, Windows XP/Vista, and Offices sales.  I agree.  However in those areas they almost dont even have to advertise, corporations are so locked in that many stick with it because A it works well and B to change to something else would be very costly.

Mike you logic once again tries to twist this down another path, R&D.  Does Microsoft have more products than Apple?  Is Microsoft in more areas of the computer/IT world?  Answer is way more, so it would make sense that Microsoft must spend more on R&D.  Microsoft if waging battles across the board.  Sever OS against the UNIX/Linux world. SQL against Oracle, Exchange against Lotus and Novell, Xbox against Sony and Nintendo, Zune against Apple, and consumer desktop against Apple.  In some cases their competitors cant stand them and take it to them anytime they can, example Oracle.  So MS should/has to spend way more on R&D.

November 22, 2008 12:34 PM
 

dovella said:

November 22, 2008 12:38 PM
 

dovella said:

November 22, 2008 12:42 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Actually, you measure how effective an ad is by how it drives sales. With the huge amount Apple spends on advertising and the tiny increase in market share they've gotten, they could probably have given away a few million Mac Minis for the same money and gotten a better return on their investment.

What the Apple fans fail to realize is that while the "Get a Mac" ads amused you, they didn't improve Mac sales enough to justify their expense. While it's possible the negative tone drove down the entire industry (just like negative political ads drive down voter turnout for all parties) that's only an effective tactic if you are the leader and figure you'll survive lower sales better than your competitors.

Using a political campaign analogy, Apple's done the equivalent of taking their campaign war chest and spending more of it on TV spots than their opponent while their opponent spent more on research and policy plans and local offices and local canvassing. And then Apple used most of that TV time on negative attack ads that were effectively, "Vote for Apple - all computers suck but we suck less" which is hardly a way to get those undecided types to invest. You don't get voters to the polls (or people to the stores) by denegrating government (or the computer industry)

Basically, "Get a Mac" did a great job of "firing up the base" but did nothing to get the undecideds to the polls which is fine if you like the status quo but not so good when you've got a 3rd party size base.

November 22, 2008 12:43 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

" Funny Mike and the MS gang here would have you believe that Apple never shows off their products only bashes MS products."

That's what makes Paul the Rush Limbaugh of the tech world. He spews stuff like this, his nodding sycophants suck it up, and it becomes accepted as "known truth". It's brilliant, but it's all a lie. Apple spent a fortune on non-Mac advertising for the iPhone and iPod, but since they don't break that out, Paul just makes a blanket statement about their total budget and spins it like a top.

Then he dismisses the amount Microsoft spends on Zune advertising as insignificant when clearly it's not...there was a time when you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting a Zune ad.

Then there's this: Statements like, "Microsoft spent $959.5 million in advertising last year...That budget is for all of the company’s many products but didn’t include any Windows advertising at all." Give me a break. Microsoft didn't spend ANY advertising dollars on Windows? None? Nada? Zip?  

Then either Paul is lying or "mikegalos" is (to quote his buddy "Waethorn") a "LIAR!!!" when he says, "Actually, if you see a Windows logo at the end of a Dell or HP ad then Microsoft did spend money on the ad. The hardware company paid most of it but the Microsoft bit at the end wasn't done for free."

Paul's fake outrage would be laughable if his fanbois didn't take it so seriously.

November 22, 2008 12:55 PM
 

BrightrevCarl said:

That's a lot of consternation in substitute for a sense of humor.  I'm primarily a Windows guy and I think the Apple ads are clever, funny and not a big deal.

November 22, 2008 12:55 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"Actually, you measure how effective an ad is by how it drives sales."

That's only one metric, "mikegalos". Come on, you know better.

November 22, 2008 12:58 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Lindy,

The reason I went with "how does each company spend their money" rather than "how much money does each compay spend" was precisely to avoid making the comparison unfair in favor of Microsoft.

R&D is how you invest in the future and Apple spends a tiny percent of their cash on that (and a tinier real dollar value but I didn't bring that up since that would be an unfair comparison that would make Apple look worse)

Advertising is NOT geared toward the future, it's strictly about the present.

That might explain why OS X is having a refresh rather than new features despite being mostly stagnant for the better part of a decade, why there's been no new iMac or Mac Pro or Mac Mini in years, why there's no Apple Cloud despite years of trying with .Mac and now with Mobile Me, why iTunes crashes computers rather than being well tested, why iPod's big change this year was to add new colors and unfortunately the list goes on and on.

Fixing this would take investing in the future and Apple's allocation of resources shows that they would rather amuse their fans with ineffective attack ads than drive the industry forward.

As I've said many times, I find it very sad that the company that did Lisa and LaserWriter now thinks "nano-chromatic" is innovation and perhaps even more sad that their base is so complacent that they applaud this disgrace rather than burn Steve Jobs in effigy for what's happened to a once world-changing company.

November 22, 2008 1:00 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"I'm primarily a Windows guy and I think the Apple ads are clever, funny and not a big deal."

Ah, but you don't make your living running a Windows website, writing books about Windows, producing Windows-related podcasts and writing for Windows-centric blogs and publications. You can imagine that, if you did, you might take a contrariwise view simply as a matter of survival.

November 22, 2008 1:04 PM
 

Lindy said:

"What the Apple fans fail to realize is that while the "Get a Mac" ads amused you, they didn't improve Mac sales enough to justify their expense."

Mike do you really believe that?  Honestly I will try not dig on you here, but for the last two years Mac sales are way, way up quarter over quarter.  Those numbers are real.  Sure world wide market share is only up a tiny bit, but since the add campaign started us sales are up.  Even in this god awful economy you have this...

www.appleinsider.com/.../apple_flirting_with_another_record_quarter_for_mac_sales.html

In the US Apple notebooks have risen to number 4 now?

So you seriously think that add campaign has not contributed to Mac sales growth?

November 22, 2008 1:07 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Lindy

Yes. Mac sales are up but not enough to justify the money spent on the ads.

For the money Apple spent, they could have given out a couple of million Mac Minis for free and gotten a bump just about as big for the money spent (based on costing the Mac Minis at true manufacturing cost and giving them to existing Windows 9x users willing to give up their 6 year old PCs for a new Mac Mini).

When the return on investment for the ads is roughly the same as giving people your product for free, I'd say that's a pretty ineffective ad campaign.

November 22, 2008 1:15 PM
 

Lindy said:

Current iMac is 1 year old as of August.  It has however gotten CPU/GPU refresh.  My wifes has a .45nm CPU with the 2008 refresh.  The Mac Pro has the latest Xeon CPU's as of a few weeks ago, which is got in Jan of 08, and probably will get the i7's or whatever they are called in Jan.

The mini is finally rumored to be updated in Jan as well, there is some email from an Apple exec floating around saying please be patient its coming soon, it could be fake.  The mini is way over do.

November 22, 2008 1:17 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Lindy

Changing the color of the case really doesn't make it new. At least not in the sense that it drives sales more than as a fashion accessory.

November 22, 2008 1:20 PM
 

Lindy said:

Ok so how far do they have to be up to justify it???

www.macobserver.com/.../05.3.shtml

apple20.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/.../analyst-apples-us-consumer-market-share-now-21-percent

www.osnews.com/.../19676

www.tgdaily.com/.../98

Those are some fantastic numbers even in a good economy.  In this economy its beyond fantastic.  They are effectively double the rest of the market.

They spent 500 million on all advertising this year and are projeted to pull in 40 billion in sales.  That ration does not look to bad to me.

I would be if you could guarantee HP or Dell, double growth rate if they spent 500 million in advertising they would not even blink an eye.  Of course 500 million is not all for just Macs.  Like I have said I have seen way more iPhone adds, to the point of being to much lately.

November 22, 2008 1:23 PM
 

Lindy said:

Come on Mike, they have faster CPU/GPU, that runs cooler and uses less power.  They have wireless N, bluetooth, and gige, it was more than just a color change.

If the mini gets an update, it will basically be the new Macbook parts in small box.  Hopefully it will be easy to open up and upgrade the RAM/HD.

November 22, 2008 1:28 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Come on Lindy, those are tweaks and not a new model. HP and Dell do revisions like that every month on their existing models.

Now, I do expect that Apple will upgrade their all-in-one and desktop lines with Intel Core i7 versions in the Spring to coincide with Snow Leopard so Apple can talk about 8-thread processing in the iMac and 16-thread in the Mac Pro but it's been a LONG time since we've seen any real investment in either of those lines.

What is surprising is that with the Core i7 already out and selling on the PC side now in time for the holiday shopping season, Apple chose to try to sell Core 2 for another year.

Either there's something in Leopard that gives really bad scores on Core i7 or Apple doesn't want their laptops that much slower than their all-in-one since there isn't a mobile Core i7 yet.

November 22, 2008 1:39 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Lindy,

Odds are that despite the rumors, the Mac Mini is dead. And I can't see why you'd think that Steve Jobs would allow for an easy open case and user upgradable RAM and HD when that's completely against everything he's every stood for. (Think original Mac, his fight against the "open Mac" Macintosh II that cost him his job, the difficulty in user replacable components in iMacs or Mac laptops)

If the Mac Mini does survive, and I doubt that, there's very little chance of it being anything other than a sealed box.

November 22, 2008 1:42 PM
 

chuckb84 said:

"What the Apple fans fail to realize is that while the "Get a Mac" ads amused you, they didn't improve Mac sales enough to justify their expense."

Mike, with all respect, I'm pretty sure that Apple judges the effectiveness of their ads very carefully, much better than your off the cuff opinion. They'll quit running the ads---as Microsoft quickly pulled the inscrutable and ineffective Seinfeld/Gates road show---as soon as the ads stop working.

November 22, 2008 2:04 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

chuck

I agree. And that's why I was noting that I haven't seen "Bean Counter" or "Bake Sale" in a while nor any new "Get a Mac" ads.

I suspect that "I'm a PC" effectively killed "Get a Mac" and that "Bean Counter" and "Bake Sale" tested out so badly with the public that even Apple recognized that they were making them look both mean spirited and whiny.

November 22, 2008 2:17 PM
 

chipwinter said:

No matter who's spending what, it looks like this spending by Apple is working. In fact, it looks like Apple could actually outearn Microsoft beginning with the Christmas quarter next year (2009).

Using analyst Andy Zaky's guidance for Apple, and Microsoft's guidance from it's last conference call ($17.8 billion), we find that Apple's earnings for this upcoming Christmas quarter might be 86.8% of Microsoft's.

And here's a look at how this percentage has changed in the past five Chrismas quarters:

Apple's Revenue as Percentage of Microsoft's

2004: 32.2%

2005: 48.7%

2006: 56.8%

2007: 59.1%

2008: 86.8%

I hope Microsoft's advertising has an answer for this ...

November 22, 2008 2:19 PM
 

DRWAM said:

When I see a 'Get A Mac' commercial, I just don't see how it would inspire any one to buy, unlike that Fergie commercial for HP, showing everything that she does with Vista. She's hot and the ad is informative. Having friends tell me that they have not experienced any of the [alleged] Vista problems, shows that they bought it even with the FUD. Therefore, the Mac ads did not convince them to Get A Mac. [They admit to seeing them too]. Interestingly, most of the FUD came from non-Apple sources, so they say. Warnings from other PC [XP I suppose] sources.

I actually don't think that MS needs to advertise at all, but the tiny amount [300 MIL ain't nothin' to them] is also good for image as well as showing good will [I think a recent ad was about supporting or donating to education]. Maybe they need a Mac user to appear amazed that his $400 Vista laptop can do so much. [Is that better Mike?] Every man has his price, and comparatively speaking, I'm a cheap whore.

The old Mac ads actually showed people making DVD's and stuff. I would bring them back.

November 22, 2008 2:48 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

chip

GM had Billions of dollars in gross sales, too.

For ever dollar Apple takes in, they keep less than 22 cents

For ever dollar Microsoft takes in, they keep 44 cents

So, if Apple managed to sell as much as Microsoft they'd still only have half the actual income to spend on cash reserves, shareholder return, R&D and advertising

And even that's with Apple eating the seed corn to make that return on investment look better in the short run.

Of every dollar Apple takes in, they spend 3.3 cents on R&D.

Of every dollar Microsoft takes in, they spend 13.9 cents on R&D.

As I said, even GM has billions in gross sales...

November 22, 2008 2:50 PM
 

johnpapola said:

Oh the hypocrisy!  Paul, the energy you expend in umbrage taking about Apple's advertising is truly insane.  I'm not saying that Apple's spot about ad spending isn't hypocritical.  It clearly is. On the flip side, the perception out there is that Vista is broken and Leopard is solid, so that spot still resonates.

That it clearly personally bothers you a great deal, I find that hilarious.  Then again, you may be one of the few people not officially on Microsoft's payroll (as far as we know) that has universally praised The Mojave Experiment, The Seinfeld Fiasco campaign and this brand-eliminating "I'm A PC" campaign.  The very idea that Apple has "Jumped the Shark" is so ludicrous it's downright bizarre.

Did you even stop for a second to consider that, for the past two years, Apple has been in the process of launching the iPhone?  That this is a brand new business for them in a very competitive environment?  That you might just need to advertise like crazy if you want to be successful in such a venture? .

And would you look at that!  The iPhone is a skyrocket success, surpassing RIM to become the #1 smartphone last quarter in just 15 months.  I'd call that a worthwhile and effective use of all resources especially advertising.

Oh, and let's review the actual broader numbers here for a minute:

Apple Annual revenue:  

2005: 13.9 Billion

2006: 19.3 Billion

2007:  24 Billion

2008:  32 Billion

And these are GAAP numbers.  Counting the iphone revenue in the quarter that they sold would push up 2008 by something north of 5 Billion MORE.    I believe that Mac unit sales mirror this revenue rise.  So... Jumped the shark?  JUMPED THE SHARK?  Only in your dreams, Paul.

Oh... and we don't know the breakdown of Get-a-mac vs iPhone ad spends.  Apple may have only spent $150 million on Mac advertising.  Never mind the fact that you're ignoring print and other media buys.

Apple is using targeted, effective messaging in their ads.  That these ads are effective is indisputable, which is why Microsoft has responded directly to them (a big strategic mistake).  That Microsoft is so utterly inept at branding is what you Redmond shills should really be spending your energy on.  Then again, clearly you and Mike have no clue what advertising or business in general really involves.

"Yes. Mac sales are up but not enough to justify the money spent on the ads.  For the money Apple spent, they could have given out a couple of million Mac Minis for free and gotten a bump just about as big for the money spent" - Mike Galos.

First of all, the numbers above make everything that comes from you about Apple a joke, Mike.  A total joke.  But I gotta love your business model.  Instead of maximizing your profit while driving awareness, just give your product away for free in pursuit of "market share" as if that has any inherent value at all (it doesn't).  I guess this is in line with your generally socialist outlooks, Mike.  I realize that price dumping has been a staple strategy for Microsoft for decades, but it is a strategy dependent on a monopoly income source.  Don't expect a call from Forbes look for new business analysis, Mike.

Here's a little mental experiment.  Imagine a campaign by GM where John Hodgeman plays a Toyota and and Justin Long plays a Chevy.  Let's assume the comic timing and production is the same as the Apple ads. Now, imagine a spot where Chevy mocks Toyota for having terrible construction quality and poor resale value.  Again, imagine it was done in funny, clever way.  Would that ad work?  Of course not.  

Ads don't resonate unless their message rings true.  Apple's ads work because there are plenty of people having trouble with Vista out there.  For those people, the "I'm a PC" ads fail.  Well, the I'm a PC ads fail in general in everything but production value, but I digress.

ps: Mike, you're really living in another dimension.  Seriously.

November 22, 2008 3:06 PM
 

johnpapola said:

"I can't see why you'd think that Steve Jobs would allow for an easy open case and user upgradable RAM and HD when that's completely against everything he's every stood for."

Um... except that both the Macbook, Macbook Pro, iMac and Mac Pro all allow precisely that.  So, again, what planet are you on?

November 22, 2008 3:08 PM
 

Lindy said:

Here is the Mini rumor...

www.appleinsider.com/.../apple_tells_mac_mini_fan_to_hang_in_there.html

Its demise has been long rumored.  Only time will tell.  If its going to be upgraded I would bet in would be in Jan at the Apple event.  Also I bet the Mac Pro will get the new i7.

All Macs use notebook CPU's, except for the Mac Pro, so that is probably why no iMac with i7 right now.

The ram and HD in are consumer upgradable in the Macbook and Macbook Pro, have been for a while.  The iMac is the same for RAM, the ram slot for the iMac is at the bottom of the screen, tilt up, one screw and pull out.

November 22, 2008 3:08 PM
 

SacredCow said:

MS is not responsible with their money, you'd have to be an idiot who drinks cough syrup daily to believe that.

If they were responsible, they wouldn't have cut corners when testing the XBOX 360, a cut that ended up costing them billions in the long run and millions of people multiple consoles.

They're now having to spends an assload to basically "restart" the 360, with a new UI, and new ad campaign, along with a lower price point that probably killed whatever tiny profit margins were there before.

Good thing I use AdBlock so I can't give Paul revenue, he must be desperate with a non-news story like this.

November 22, 2008 3:12 PM
 

Lindy said:

I will say that Fergie commercial is well done, and she is smokin hot.  However that is  HP commercial more than anything, you dont see the Windows mentioned until the last second.  There is a glimpse, half second of WMP, with stuff flying out of it, but only a geek would know that from the small play button at the bottom.  The rest is her, and colors flying around in the air.

Also anything she does there can be done on a Mac, and right or wrong artistic people are usually thought to be Mac user.  Stereotype of sorts.

November 22, 2008 3:14 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

John

Once again, and directed at you specifically, I find it very sad that the company that did Lisa and LaserWriter now thinks "nano-chromatic" is innovation and perhaps even more sad that their base is so complacent that they applaud this disgrace rather than burn Steve Jobs in effigy for what's happened to a once world-changing company.

November 22, 2008 3:56 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

"They did, however, spend this time improving Vista, most notably with Service Pack 1 (SP1) and the many other updates that shipped before and since."

Windows services packs are not much more than a bundle of the large number of security updates required to keep the OS remotely secure.

"It’s worth noting, too, that the biggest problems with Vista were caused by third parties in the Windows ecosystem, but whatever."

Whatever is right. Passing the buck again for a mediocre OS. Don't blame third parties for a bad OS. People waited six long years and expected more. What they got was more of the same with a new coat of pain. Vista 2 will be more of the same still. Vista sucks is not because of others. It's because of its creator, Microsoft. Plain and simple. But, whatever.

"These include The Mohave Experiments ads" - a failure.

"the Gates/Seinfeld series" - a cancelled failure.

"and, of course, the excellent I’m A PC ads" - another failure. Excellent? There's no accounting for taste, is there? The "I'm a <strike>Dork</strike> PC" ads were not excellent. They simply copied the line from Apple. Again, unoriginal. I'll give the Seinfeld ads that token. They were original. Yet made no sense and hence they were cancelled.

"As noted above, Microsoft had “fixed” Vista a long long time before the ads appeared." This could be argued. Vista by being Vista, in many people's eyes, in inherently flawed - even today.

"Ahahahaha" What are you 12?

Why not stick with things Windows? Or change the name of the blog. Your obsession with Apple bashing is extraordinary. The thing is, Apple tells the truth in their ads. It shows up Microsoft for being who they are - a convicted monopolist. A leopard (pun intended) never changes its spots. The core is the same.

In the end, with all your whining Microsoft is still the new IBM. Big and boring. And no matter how hard you fanboys try, that will never change.

November 22, 2008 4:06 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos: "It could just be they've stopped targeting my demographic but has anyone noticed a pleasant lack of "I'm a Mac" ads lately? Its almost as if Apple got their two "Microsoft is spending money on advertising" ironyfests out there, saw that the polling numbers, realized that the joke was on Apple and cancelled their November ad buys"

Wishful thinking. They keep on coming regularly like they always have. There is no way that anything that Microsoft has done will change Apples (or anyone else's) perception of Microsoft. There have been recent ads released. You wish.

November 22, 2008 4:14 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos: "For exampe, I could say that Microsoft's advertising and R&D mix have given them 96% of the global market"

Don't forget that it helped them to be monopolist. Convicted as such too. That helped... lots.

November 22, 2008 4:14 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos: "Yes. Mac sales are up but not enough to justify the money spent on the ads."

It also helps to clear up all the FUD that Microsoft generates about their stuff. It's also to let people know that there is stuff that is a lot better out there. That the McDonald's of the tech industry is not the best meal you can have. That Apple is a much better dining experience. That people don't have to eat the crud that Microsoft has been serving for decades. That's why the dollars are spent.

November 22, 2008 4:14 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@lotsamystuff: "That's what makes Paul the Rush Limbaugh of the tech world."

Ahahahaha. This made me LOL. It's funny cause it's true.

The facts speak for themselves.

img511.imageshack.us/.../supersiteformicrosoftfatu1.png

November 22, 2008 4:15 PM
 

johnpapola said:

@Mike,

The iPhone is changing the entire face of mobile computing, so I don't know what more you could expect from Apple.  Seriously. They've delivered a completely new computing platform and in less than two years become a dominant player with a rich ecosystem of third party developers.  The iPhone is enormously innovative and enormously influential.  And again, they did the same with music, single-handedly revolutionizing the business.  

And they're clearly working hard on advancing the desktop in areas like multi-threading and GPGPU processing that are still in need of major advancement with Open CL and the coming updates in Snow Leopard.  I believe Open CL just finalized in record time.  Never mind that Apple beat Microsoft to market with many of the technologies that made Vista an improvement over XP.

They're also continuing to do very innovative work in creative professional software at unbelievable prices relative to the competition.

Perhaps you'd prefer it if they spun their wheels in unprofitable ventures across every aspect of tech like Microsoft does (gaming, mobiles, search).  Instead, they've been busy launch two completely new and wildly successful businesses (music and mobiles) while continuing to grow their computer business in the double digits.

But everyone here knows what you're about, Mike.  Innovation only counts if you deem it innovation...  which means it only counts if Microsoft is doing it.  That you choose to ignore these things and focus on marketing like "nano-chromatic" is because you're not intellectually honest.

This whole routine about Apple having contributed nothing since the Lisa or the laserwriter is just pure, grade A, bull$hit.  Just like your contention that Apple had monopoly power in the computer space (now rejected officially by the courts for it's obviousness).

I'm trying to be respectful here, but your positions don't really warrant it.  I'm only wasting my time on writing this (despite knowing you're incapable of recognizing it) because I'm sick and sitting on the couch, bored, and tired or reading about the economy.

God bless.

November 22, 2008 4:26 PM
 

tayme said:

@robertsjoe - You are truly obsessed with Apple, aren't you? It is amazing to watch. If you have never read about our old friend bonch, you should look him up. You'd get along with him. Thanks for the entertainment!!!

--tayme

November 22, 2008 4:26 PM
 

johnpapola said:

@robertsjoe,

Microsoft does deserve enormous credit for dramatically improving security.  They are an effective firm when they have competition, as we've seen with IE, Silverlight, Xbox as well as Windows Server.  But like most companies, the absence of competition inevitably leads to decay.

Of course, none of that explains why Windows Mobile sucks.

November 22, 2008 4:31 PM
 

tayme said:

Remember, one of mikegaos' many claimed career stops was as an evangelist for Microsoft. Mike is the Jerry Falwell of this site...and robertsjoe is like the Jim Baker. They both think that their version of the truth is the only correct version, and in most cases, they are both wrong.

--tayme

November 22, 2008 4:36 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@tayme: Are you saying that this is a Republican blog for Microsoft? Channelling *** Cheney?

November 22, 2008 4:53 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@johnpapola: "Microsoft does deserve enormous credit for dramatically improving security. "

I don't disagree that they do some good things, I am not completely oblivious to that. But they are given credit (by this blog and others on here) for things that they don't deserve credit for. Plus there's a lot of anti-Apple FUD generated on the Supersite for WINDOWS blog and by the likes of mikegalos and others. Unfair and biased, that seems to be some people's motto.

"Of course, none of that explains why Windows Mobile sucks."

Because there was no one before to show them how to do it? ;)

November 22, 2008 4:53 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@tayme: "You are truly obsessed with Apple, aren't you? It is amazing to watch."

If so, it's exactly the same thing that can be said about Paul and the Microsoft fanboys on this site.

bonch?!

November 22, 2008 4:54 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

"Remember, one of mikegaos' many claimed career stops was as an evangelist for Microsoft."

Something started by Guy at Apple. Copied that too mike?

November 22, 2008 4:55 PM
 

DRWAM said:

It's funny how you seem to be more aware of these ads after this discussion. I just drove back from McD's and heard " Get KYW news on your iPhone" and the Target ad on our table has a Zune ad on the back cover. I still want to bite Fergie's butt.

November 22, 2008 5:05 PM
 

subzerohitman721 said:

This whole squabble about the advertising doesn't surprise me one bit. Any good corporation would spend a good chunk of change on a good marketing department and effective advertisement. However, the only thing I dislike about the Apple ads are this:

1.) Deceptive and spreading stereotypes.

2.) Tells me nothing about the product.

I got more out of the Fergie HP commercial about the functions of their computers than any Mac "Switcher" ad. That explains why my dad is running an HP. He could identify with the commercials and the reasonable price.

Microsoft has done a damn good job with beefing up security. Right now as I have stated the facts over and over, Apple has a serious security issues. Its systemic of their lack of beta programs and accountability with consumers. If they had an open process subject to honest scrutiny by the press, Apple would be more criticized than praised. They do make good products. Its just the arrogant "Culture of Smug" that we get from rabid Mac fans and the press thats a real turn off.

Its guys like Lindy, bettleblu, Ocean, and RobertsJoe that really turn me away from Apple. Nor do I want to be associated with that kind of rabid fans.  At the same token mikegalos doesn't do anything to polish the image of Microsoft users at all. I think both instigate things when there's nothing to really instigate.

Vista outsells Leopard 30 to 1. How effective is the advertising when you're losing by that margin? To me that says it and is ultimately the bottom line. 2009 will be the 16th year for Windows dominance of the marketplace after anti-trust, court rulings, Mac Commercials, and the rise of rabid fans. At the same time, Apple isn't hurting one bit. The more things supposedly change, the more they stay the same.

Peace.

November 22, 2008 5:08 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@subzerohitman721: "I think both instigate things when there's nothing to really instigate."

In this case it was all instigated by yet another flame-bait anti-Apple rant on this blog.

November 22, 2008 5:11 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

The point of the Apple ads is that Microsoft spent all that money on ads telling you about Vista, it's that they should be spending it in fixing Vista's problems.

November 22, 2008 5:20 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

BTW, Microsoft did not spend $959.5 million on advertising. They spent $1.2b. Big difference. Bet the post is not updated to be made "factoid" like.

www.sec.gov/.../d10k.htm

November 22, 2008 5:23 PM
 

subzerohitman721 said:

@robertsjoe

In this case it was all instigated by yet another flame-bait anti-Apple rant on this blog.

My Take:

Yet I've yet to hear you compliment Microsoft for one thing. From you we always hear, "Microsoft sucks and the users have no style, blah blah blah." Dude, seriously. Apple has many reasons to be criticized and you're "Apple can do no wrong" holier than thou is getting old. How do those iPhones work so well? Its because they're using Microsoft Exchange. No exchange, no iPhone. Its as simple as that. Great product but it has Microsoft products being implemented in its functions.

You're just as bad as MikeGalos, if not more insidious. I think chuckb84 said on the previous entry was right about getting a life being so appropriate on this blog.

November 22, 2008 5:24 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

" And let’s be clear: That budget is for all of the company’s many products but didn’t include any Windows advertising at all"

And let's be clear: The budget from Apple of $486 was for all of the company’s many products but didn’t include any OS X advertising at all. Why not mention that? There are many ads that are for the iPhone. Tonnes of TV and print and online ads for the iPhone. Nothing to do with OS X. You were talking about Vista right? So the iPhone would have nothing to do with it. Why not mention that $486 is not what was spent on just OS X ads? No, of course not.

November 22, 2008 5:27 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@subzerohitman721: "yet I've yet to hear you compliment Microsoft for one thing."

There is so much that's incorrect and FUD around that there's no time to compliment MS.

Things I like about what MS has done?

- VisualStudio. Great dev environment. Lots of great work there.

- SQL Server. Great database. Enjoy working with it. Great free version too.

- .NET. Incredible work done by Anders and the team. C# is a great language. Got the bad taste of VB out of people's mouths and offered something better than it and less of a hairball than C++.

No, I'm not about just bagging MS. I'm about stopping FUD and anti-Apple posts for the sake of it. Factoids, people! Factoids! (BTW, if you didn't know, that's a reference to a collection of posts that started with "Factoid:".

Microsoft does some very good work.

November 22, 2008 5:33 PM
 

DRWAM said:

Great ad for Dell Inspiron 530 in this weekend's Parade mag

'A PC THAT FITS YOUR NEEDS AND YOUR BUDGET'

'Plays and creates CD's and DVD's.'

Has Vista Basic and only for $349.

And subster. I'll be the first to admit that without Exchange, I would not on the iPhone.

November 22, 2008 5:36 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

The $959.5 million figure still has not been updated to $1.2b. Come on night watchmen, get the facts right.

November 22, 2008 5:42 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

Correction, where I said:

"And let's be clear: The budget from Apple of $486 was for all of the company’s many products but didn’t include any OS X advertising at all."

I meant: The budget from Apple of $486 was for all of the company’s many products and not JUST for OS X. Including iPhone, iPods, etc.

November 22, 2008 6:08 PM
 

chipwinter said:

robertsjoe:

Dont' hold your breath waiting for Paul to correct things.

About two weeks ago he went on a tirade about how Apple rejected an App from their App store and then said it was such a disgusting move, he felt like he had to shower.

The real story was that the App was never submitted to Apple, thus never rejected.

Never any mention of that here.

November 22, 2008 6:34 PM
 

johnpapola said:

@Subzero:

"Vista outsells Leopard 30 to 1. How effective is the advertising when you're losing by that margin?"

"Losing" at what?  The game of business is one of product design, customer satisfaction, growth and profit.  Market Share is utterly irrelevant once your platform has a large enough userbase to incentivize third party support.  As Steve Jobs said long ago, Microsoft doesn't need to fail for Apple to succeed.

This fixation on Mac market share as a valuable metric is for suckers (and hack/shills like Paul).

Let's also not forget that Apple's direct competitors really are the hardware makers.  This is why the advertising says "I'm a Mac... and I'm a PC." This is why Hodgeman refers to Vista as something not of himself but put upon him.

Now, again for everyone, the reason Apple is using this advertising approach is that the computer market is saturated.  In order to grow their base, Apple needs to convert Windows users as well as bring in first time computer buyers and repeat buyers.  The spots are pure awareness.  Get the simple notion "Mac are better than PCs" in people's heads and soften them up for their next swing past an Apple store.  If you've had a problem with Vista that an ad touches on, you may just have your interest piqued.

The Apple stores remain the key to Apple's growth because demonstrating the power of a computing platform like OSX is only effective in person.  No :30 spot is going to get across the technical merits.

Now, as for this idea that anyone choosing their computer based on the personality of online fanboys... I'm sorry for you if you do.  That's a pathetic, infantile reason to pick your computer.  There's clearly jerks shilling for both sides.  Pick what works for you.

November 22, 2008 6:41 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@chipwinter: "Dont' hold your breath waiting for Paul to correct things.

About two weeks ago he went on a tirade about how Apple rejected an App from their App store and then said it was such a disgusting move, he felt like he had to shower."

That is so annoying. When people spread such FUD then don't have the decency to make corrections.

November 22, 2008 6:51 PM
 

johnpapola said:

@Chipwinter,

You're dead right.  Paul went nuts about the Opera Mobile "denial" that never happened.  Meanwhile, John Gruber got the real story and followed through.  But Gruber has integrity and Paul has none. Not when it comes to Apple.

Paul has fully devolved into a sad, bitter hack and a complete shill for Microsoft.  He has the journalistic integrity of Rob Enderle, who posted glowing praise for a Dell music service/device for which he was a consultant while never mentioning his role in the articles.  That Dell initiative died without ever seeing the light of day, btw.

Of course Paul won't alter this post with real information (or look it up in the first place).  Let's not forget that Paul spent YEARS talking about how the Mac market was "ending" and that playsforsure was destined to marginalize the iPod + iTunes.

Paul is a part of Microsoft's marketing arm. This site might as well be an employee blog.

November 22, 2008 6:52 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

This is amusing. The Apple brigade are now battling each other to prove who is the most rabid.

Although my favorite is the person who works for a television network saying how market share doesn't matter. Of course, with his network's Nielsen ratings running less than 1 and share to match, I'd imagine he says that to himself every day...

But, then, he also insists on telling us about iPhone's share at every opportunity... Curious.

November 22, 2008 7:25 PM
 

bettieblu said:

"Vista outsells Leopard 30 to 1. How effective is the advertising when you're losing by that margin?"

Dont go into marketing, or business for that matter.  

If Vista sales pickup because of the I am PC adds, then they were effective.  

We know Mac sales have gone up dramatically since the "I am Mac" adds so we know it was very effective.  

Pretty much marketing 101.  You don't have to like the adds from either side to objectively say that they were effective or not.

Vista honestly does not compete with Leopard.  It competes with XP.  If Microsoft got every OS X user to convert to Vista, yet only 10% of the corporate world, then they have failed.  I say that because the corporate world is where MS makes most of its money.

As of July of 2008 only 8.8% of corporations have moved to Vista according to Forrester.  Will they hit 20% before Windows 7?

November 22, 2008 7:34 PM
 

techboy2000 said:

I think the "I'm a PC" ads are pathetic.  Continually showing the sloppy and uncool unwashed masses is a big turn off.  I couldn't believe they would show a middle aged man in a tank top saying "I'm a PC".  Seeing Microsoft create unfunny, unentertaining, and unappealing advertisements makes me angry.

November 22, 2008 7:40 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

"Remember, one of mikegaos' many claimed career stops was as an evangelist for Microsoft."

Something started by Guy at Apple. Copied that too mike? "

Absolutely. And Guy Kawasaki is an absolutely fantastic person and a totally class act who while being a fierce competitor is always an honest and honerable one. It's a shame that since he left Apple almost 20 years ago they've stopped evangelizing and switched to lying about competitors to preserve the image of the innovative underdog with a better way that he created in the 1980s.

I still collect used copies of The Macintosh Way to give out to people at Microsoft as THE must read book on evangelism. I just finished re-reading it for at least the tenth time last month.

Below is a case in point about Guy as a class act that I blogged about back in June 2006 (the copy on the link has better formatting and links if you feel like bothering but the text is below):

mikegalos.spaces.live.com/.../cns!D67AAFB9181617CF!253.entry

---------------------------

The Story is Out

A little while after Word 2007 Beta 2 shipped to the general public Guy Kawasaki posted that he was looking for a program that would let him do WYSIWYG editing for his blog and even stated that he’d be willing to use a Windows PC. Now, that may not sound like much but remember that Guy was the original Macintosh Product Evangelist for Apple and is a legend in the Mac community. Not being about to resist, I sent Guy a note that the new Beta version of Word had exactly that feature. We bounced some mail back and forth for a while going over the features and UI for blogging and I didn’t think much more about it.

Last weekend I woke up with mail from Guy in my Inbox. He’d gotten Word 2007 beta installed and running and wanted to know what he had to do to set up the blogging for his host. After a few more emails back and forth, Guy was blogging with a Microsoft Windows product.

Now, as a courtesy, I didn’t mention this publicly until now because it wasn’t the right thing to do. Guy has been fair in his evangelism and is a class act all the way around and didn’t need to catch heat from the less rational side of the Mac world for the sin of using a PC product.

Today, that embargo was lifted as Guy added a blurb about Word 2007 beta’s blogging feature in his blog and while he’s now blogging with two Mac applications he still put in a plug for Word. As I said, class act. And now that he’s gone public I feel like I can, too.

P.S. If you haven’t read The Macintosh Way that Guy wrote about product evangelism , go, find a good used book store (like, say, Powell’s in Portland, OR) and track down a copy now. I’ll wait. It’s a must read and must re-read that I go through at least once every three years and I’ve got a hardback copy now so that I don’t wear it out.

November 22, 2008 7:48 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Since Paul's blogging software truncates the links: here's a tinyurl link to the same post about Guy and Word: http://tinyurl.com/6fx65r

November 22, 2008 7:57 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@johnpapola: "Paul went nuts about the Opera Mobile "denial" that never happened.  Meanwhile, John Gruber got the real story and followed through."

Completely agree. There's a big difference between a tabloid Microsoft fanboy blogger and someone with integrity of John.

November 22, 2008 8:17 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos: What? Aren't you going to correct Paul on his incorrect figure on what MS spend on sales and marketing? Of course not, it's not shilling.  You guys aren't about facts. It's about being MS shills.

November 22, 2008 8:18 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos: " they've stopped evangelizing and switched to lying about competitors"

Apple has not lied. Unlike MSFT.

November 22, 2008 8:18 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@techboy2000: "Continually showing the sloppy and uncool unwashed masses is a big turn off."

If you want to show real Windows users, you'll get just that.

November 22, 2008 8:18 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@bettieblu: "If Vista sales pickup because of the I am PC adds, then they were effective."

Sales and marketing for Windows is really something they don't need to do. So many millions of people are paying the Microsoft tax that there's no real alternative. So many companies, governments and the like have made the mistake of choosing Windows, it's too expensive now to get out. The Microsoft tax.

"Vista honestly does not compete with Leopard.  It competes with XP."

You're kidding right? Vista is competing with OS 9. OS X is far ahead of any competition.

November 22, 2008 8:20 PM
 

johnpapola said:

@Mike,

Good to see you at least own up to your active Microsoft evangelism.

"my favorite is the person who works for a television network saying how market share doesn't matter."

More blatant intellectual dishonest at work from Mr. Galos.  Obviously, an advertising-based business like TV has market share as a big role.  If you're pepsi and you're looking to get Mountain Dew ads in front of the biggest percentage of eyeballs possible, ratings (which is a share metric) matters.

We don't sell widgets, Mike.  We sell access to eyeballs.  Brand plays a vital role in our business too, since demographics are driven by content and brand and advertisers are interested in particular demographics.  Don't you worry, though.  Spike is doing just fine even with our modest ratings thanks to a very targeted brand.  

In computers, on the other hand, market share only matters in individual segments because it determines the third party support. So Apple's mac share in the consumer space is large enough for a vibrant consumer product ecosystem.  Same with education content creation, life sciences, etc.

Overall share is meaningless and pursuing it at the expense of profit is a terrible business (it's what got Dell in so much trouble that Michael had to come back).  Apple's growth means that their pricing looks fine.  It's unknown whether lowering their prices would dramatically increase their volume enough to counter lost revenue.  Maybe it would.  Maybe it wouldn't.

As for my reference to the success of the iPhone, I was merely pointing to that because it is objectively amazing.  Even more impressive than the market share, though, is the customer satisfaction.  All of the empirical evidence tells us that the iPhone is a huge success on all fronts.  It's clearly and obviously a solution for more that people "interested in getting drinks with their friends after a day of shopping" which you proclaimed as the only audience for the iphone.

November 22, 2008 8:26 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

More proof of just how MS goes about getting things wrong: www.techflash.com/Enderle_Microsoft_Ballmer_conflicting_reality34812539.html

November 22, 2008 8:36 PM
 

Mum said:

Mac advertising is nearly non-existant on global scale.

Vista was the biggest beta program anyone ever put out claiming it's a finished product. There are signs it'll never really get fixed.

And M. Galos: still struggling to get the difference between 'innovation' and 'invention'? Which changes the world? Which really matters to consumers? And which R&D is aimed to generate?

November 22, 2008 8:38 PM
 

SPiotr said:

Some "factoids" for the US-centric amongst you.

The "Get a Mac" TV campaign that bothers some of you so much only appeared in a handful of countries outside of North America. In the UK the campaign was web and posters only)

If you want a snapshot of Apple's TV presence in the UK, this year, then here it is..... Some MacBook Air ads at the start of the year. (not many). iPod ads all year round but more around the launch of new products and the holidays. Some iPhone  ads early in the year and many many more after the launch of the 3G. There also seems to be a new iPod Touch campaign.

I don't know how that product mix compares with what you guys are seeing in the US (on TV) but I think it's safe to assume that, out of the $950 million that Apple has spent on advertising in the last two years .... a pretty large chunk was spent on NON-GetaMac ads.

For those who suggest that that campaign is 'preaching to the converted' I suggest you take another look at Microsoft's "I'm a PC" ads. The basic premise is that 95% of people use a PC! (In fairness, they do it pretty well and it's a pretty tough sell)

In the last 3 years, Apple has gone from selling 4.7 million Macs to 10 million. That is THREE TIMES the growth of the PC.

With US PC growth being virtually nonexistent in the same three years... Apple's increased sales represent an even better gain.

The GetaMac ads do not work in isolation so it's no point claiming that they are solely responsible for the increase in Mac sales. However to claim that the opposite is true is a complete falsehood. Incessantly repeating it (particularly without any evidence) does not make it true.

PS. Great idea on how to save your advertising budget Mike.

Just give your product away for free! Wish I had thought of that.

------

November 22, 2008 8:41 PM
 

johnpapola said:

On a side note,

Gruber just linked to an interesting exchange between Rob Enderle and the top brass at Microsoft about the utter stupidity of the multiple SKUs for Vista.  For once, I agree with this guy.  Amazing that the numbskulls at Microsoft clearly got this from all sides and still proceeded with this scheme for confusing consumers in an effort to raise the ASP.  

www.techflash.com/Enderle_Microsoft_Ballmer_conflicting_reality34812539.html

November 22, 2008 8:43 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

"Amazing that the numbskulls at Microsoft clearly got this from all sides and still proceeded with this scheme for confusing consumers in an effort to raise the ASP."

And people like Mike preach the mistake. Claiming that it's actually good. I guess if your master feeds you ***, you eat it.

November 22, 2008 8:45 PM
 

johnpapola said:

Sorry for the double post about something off-topic.

November 22, 2008 8:46 PM
 

tayme said:

Ka-ching!!! Penton Media and Paul Thurrott would like to thank you all for making this a profitable Saturday.

--tayme

November 22, 2008 8:47 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@tayme: "Ka-ching!!! Penton Media and Paul Thurrott would like to thank you all for making this a profitable Saturday."

Profitable, maybe. Credible? Not so much.

November 22, 2008 8:49 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

"Ka-ching!!! Penton Media and Paul Thurrott would like to thank you all for making this a profitable Saturday."

The funny thing is, I think that's why there's such a high number of flame-bait anti-Apple rants. To pay the bills.

November 22, 2008 9:05 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

"The "Get a Mac" TV campaign that bothers some of you so much only appeared in a handful of countries outside of North America. In the UK the campaign was web and posters only)"

Nope. See en.wikipedia.org/.../Get_a_mac for 7 UK specific TV spots and 8 US spots that were modified for the UK TV market as well as the change in casting from Long and Hodgeman to Robert Webb and David Mitchell respecively for the UK ads.

Of course, since the Guardian's review of the ads was:

"Mitchell plays a repressed, neurotic underdog, and Webb plays a selfish, self-regarding poseur" ... "So when you see the ads, you think, 'PCs are a bit rubbish yet ultimately lovable, whereas Macs are just smug, preening tossers.'"

perhaps it's not surprising that they don't get much play anymore.

November 22, 2008 9:09 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos: Yeah, PCs are rubbish. He got that right.

November 22, 2008 9:15 PM
 

tayme said:

@robertsjoe - You do realize that PC is an acronym for Personal Computer and a Macintosh is a personal computer that runs OS X? Are you saying that Macs are rubbish? Seems to me, that you are.

--tayme

November 22, 2008 9:27 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

OT but offered as a courtesy for the Mac users who seem to spend their evenings on Windows Supersite and may have missed it...

Mac OS X targeted by Trojan and backdoor tool

news.zdnet.com/2424-9595_22-251586.html

You might want to be careful surfing some other less G-rated sites if you are among those arrogant enough to not use an anti-virus.

November 22, 2008 9:32 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

tayme

No, robertsjoe is saying that Windows is lovable and Macs are smug, preening tossers.

November 22, 2008 9:34 PM
 

tayme said:

I would disagree with both mikegalos and robertsjoe. Computers are tools to get specific jobs or tasks done. Choose what works best for you.

I do agree though, that there are smug, preening tossers that use OS X and Windows...1 of each type that are regular posters here on Paul's site.

--tayme

November 22, 2008 9:40 PM
 

johnpapola said:

@Mike,

Come back to us with a link to an actual virus that doesn't rely on social engineering and the user actively running it to work in OSX.  Even better, come back to us when one of these things delivers a massive, widespread attack akin to any of the devastating Windows virus assaults like Melissa or whatever.

Just more of the same Mac bashing from Mr. Microsoft Evangelist.

November 22, 2008 9:45 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@tayme: @robertsjoe - "You do realize that PC is an acronym for Personal Computer and a Macintosh is a personal computer that runs OS X? Are you saying that Macs are rubbish? Seems to me, that you are."

I know that very well. But these days PC is used to solely describe what was originally the IBM PC line of computers. Nice try, but you don't get any points for this. So the dweebs in Microsoft's commercials are actually Mac users, right? When they say "I'm a <strike>Dork</strike> PC"? Don't think so. Yeah, PCs are rubbish.

November 22, 2008 10:07 PM
 

Dew Drop – Weekend Edition – November 22-23, 2008 | Alvin Ashcraft's Morning Dew said:

Pingback from  Dew Drop &ndash; Weekend Edition &ndash; November 22-23, 2008 | Alvin Ashcraft's Morning Dew

November 22, 2008 10:07 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos: "No, robertsjoe is saying that Windows is lovable and Macs are smug, preening tossers."

Always changing what others are saying and lying in between. No, PC are rubbish. Windows users lovable? There are lots of words to describe PC users. Lovable is not one of them. au.youtube.com/watch

November 22, 2008 10:08 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos: @johnpapola: "Come back to us with a link to an actual virus that doesn't rely on social engineering and the user actively running it to work in OSX."

Exactly! I don't think PC users actually know the difference between a virus, worm, trojans or backboors. You think they would given that every time someone installs Windows (including Vista 2), the first thing that is recommended you do is install something anti-virus, spyware and the like software to protect your OS that's full of holes. On OS X, you don't need to do that at all. See? Life is better away from Windows.

November 22, 2008 10:08 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

Not only does Microsoft lie, but so do their bloggers "BTW, Microsoft spent $959.5 million in advertising last year."

It's $1.2b!

November 22, 2008 10:09 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos: Here is only a partial list of the viruses, trojans et al found recently for Vista. Yeah, secure OS! NOT!

generic pws.y!badb4c88 11/20/2008

FakeAlert-BF.dr 11/14/2008

QHosts-113 11/13/2008

Rscan 11/10/08

W32/Sdbot.worm!797C016E 11/07/08

PHP/WPTrojan.b 11/07/08

Generic PUP.x!37B20B0B 11/06/08

PWS-Mmorpg.gen!4F4835C5 11/06/08

Generic Downloader.x!77429105 11/06/08

Generic Downloader.x!484A4BCD 11/06/08

Generic Downloader.x!60143127 11/06/08

Generic Downloader.x!97495AE7 11/06/08

FakeAlert-AB.dldr.gen.b!C39E1DE9 11/06/08

FakeAlert-AB.dldr.gen.b!235FE737 11/06/08

Generic Downloader.x!DFCBAE17 11/06/08

Generic BackDoor!B82C9FBE 11/06/08

PWS-Mmorpg.gen!22A867D0 11/06/08

Generic Downloader.x!34729A65 11/06/08

FakeAlert-AB.dldr.gen.b!FB22286F 11/06/08

Generic.dx!538FC9E0 11/06/08

Generic.dx!6B498239 11/06/08

PWS-Mmorpg.gen!F3D2FD30 11/06/08

PWCrack-Winspy!16A6EC7B 11/06/08

FakeAlert-AB.dldr.gen.b!620F132D 11/06/08

Generic Downloader.x!2CB26608 11/06/08

Generic Downloader.x!F01058D7 11/06/08

PWS-Mmorpg.gen!DC838375 11/06/08

Generic Downloader.x!6F3F8CF0 11/06/08

Generic.dx!A5974192 11/06/08

PWS-Mmorpg.gen!24C50506 11/06/08

November 22, 2008 10:23 PM
 

SPiotr said:

@mikegalos

Neither your wikki link or Guardian "review" mentions anything about a TV campaign. I never saw them on the box and I can only find references to the web ads.

Please feel free to waste your time trying to find more of the same "facts" and "reviews" ... 'cos you are really building a very convincing rebuttal. :)

November 22, 2008 10:26 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

SPiotr

Perhaps you should read the wikipedia article again.

November 22, 2008 10:41 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

john

"Come back to us with a link to an actual virus that doesn't rely on social engineering and the user actively running it to work in OSX."

I will if you'll do the same and only talk about actual viruses that don't rely on social engineering and the user actively running them to work in Windows Vista.

But, hey, you just keep on running with no anti-virus because Mac users are magically made impervious to social engineering except for reality distortion fields.

November 22, 2008 10:44 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos, @spiotr: I know for a fact that the Get A Mac TV ads were shown outside of the US, and outside of the UK too.

November 22, 2008 10:47 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos: "But, hey, you just keep on running with no anti-virus because Mac users are magically made impervious to social engineering except for reality distortion fields."

Even anti-virus software on Vista does not protect you from social engineering tricks. Not new ones. That is the trick isn't it? The anti-virus software does not know about new attacks, and social engineering techniques are even harder to prevent against. Sure, there are techniques to try and find them, but it's extremely hard. That is why social engineering is so effective.

Mike, the thing is that Mac users are also more intelligent than your average Windows user. Hence it's a two pronged attack against viruses. One, the OS is more secure. Two, the users are smarter.

November 22, 2008 10:50 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

I like Mike. Like Paul he's his own echo chamber. Loves the sound of their own posts coming back to them. Say anything, and it'll be ignored to sprout more FUD.

November 22, 2008 10:51 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

"Mac users are also more intelligent than your average Windows user."

Smug, preening tosser does come to mind, doesn't it.

November 22, 2008 10:59 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos: "Smug, preening tosser does come to mind, doesn't it."

I think it's time you did a virus definition update isn't it? Those things are updated daily on Windows, right?

November 22, 2008 11:04 PM
 

SPiotr said:

There was a UK specific "campaign". Consisting of "advertisements". That were "recast" and "altered" and "re-shot".

The ads were not aired on UK broadcast television.

"Perhaps you should read the wikipedia article again."

Perhaps you refrain from sending people on wild, irrelevant goose chases.

November 22, 2008 11:20 PM
 

Dipsh t Admin said:

I know I shouldn't feed the troll, but whatever.  robertsjoe, this list of viruses you listed is very deceiving , and just because it is new does not mean that it affects Vista.  Take a look at the descriptions.  Most of those don't self replicate and require the user to do something to get infected.  As we know from the immutable laws of computer security, if you run something, it will have the same privs as the logged in user. That will go for any OS.  Market share determines where the malware writers spend their time.  Remember that malware is all done for profit these days, not for fun.  As the Mac continues to become more popular, these types of attacks will increase.  To assume that Mac users are somehow magically smarter is amazingly naive.   In fact, since they have been "taught" that the Mac is more secure in the said TV ads, the average Mac user is actually more at risk to social networking attacks.  Which involve phishing I might add.  Of course using a browser with a phishing filter helps, so use Firefox or IE.

Given hat these require user intervention, running Vista and IE in protected mode will actually give you some of the best protection out there.  It has increasingly been shown that other third party software is being exploited since the OS has been locked down so well.  Adobe and Apple, I'm looking at you.

November 22, 2008 11:22 PM
 

Dipsh t Admin said:

"Even better, come back to us when one of these things delivers a massive, widespread attack akin to any of the devastating Windows virus assaults like Melissa or whatever."

Certainly, before the Trustworthy Computing initiative, such an attack was quite easy because it was self replicating against an OS that were widely known to be secure.  It wasn't until XP SP2 that many of those holes had been closed.  Now the primary infection vector is human.

November 22, 2008 11:27 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@Dipsh t Admin: "Most of those don't self replicate and require the user to do something to get infected."

I understand that. But that is exactly what the type of security alert that @mikegalos pointed to is. The user has to do something. Yet that doesn't stop him from spreading FUD. He of course will not point to the number of such warning for Windows, since he's a fanatic. So I agree and understand what it is. It's Mike who is using such a single example to spread his MSFT sponsored FUD.

November 22, 2008 11:30 PM
 

SPiotr said:

@robertsjoe

"I know for a fact that the Get A Mac TV ads were shown outside of the US, and outside of the UK too."

Robertjoe, The UK campaign didn't run on TV. Everywhere else, probably, just not on TV. It's really not that important, apart from the fact that TV costs more than other media. Mike is making a big deal about it  (even though he is wrong), so he can safely ignore the main point .... which is.... perennial iPod advertising coupled with two massive iPhone launches take up a significant chunk of Apple's ad budget.

November 22, 2008 11:43 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@spiotr: "Robertjoe, The UK campaign didn't run on TV. Everywhere else, probably, just not on TV. "

No worries, I believe you. I was just saying that they did, for sure, run outside the US on TV.

And yeah, Paul and MIke (as they normally tend to do) conveniently avoid mentioning that Apple's ad budget is not just for OS X, that there's lots of money going to things like the iPhone and iPod. Not that they would say that or correct their comments or posts, it's not their style. Yet they break down Microsoft's $1.2b ad costs to make sure they say, hey not all of that was on Vista. Hypocrite, anyone?

November 22, 2008 11:49 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

robertsjoe

Nope. You're making it up again.

So, do you really expect people to take you seriously when all you add to the conversation is personal attacks based on things demonsterably not true?

November 23, 2008 12:21 AM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos: Making what up? Microsoft spent $1.2b on advertising, not the figure made up of $959.5 and re-blogged here by Paul.

Look at the 10K www.sec.gov/.../d10k.htm

As for the viruses, many more reported for Windows. Why not mention those? That is why you can't afford to run without anti-virus software (if you did it'd be like putting a gun to your hard drive). Where as OS Xers can and do run without it just fine.

November 23, 2008 12:27 AM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos: I'm making it up and things that are not true? I don't think you know what you're saying. You love getting your info from Wikipedia. Have a look here and learn something en.wikipedia.org/.../Fact

November 23, 2008 12:28 AM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos: Come on <strike>Paul</strike> Mike, you love spreading FUD and not backing it up. Admit that, please. For the sake of the blogosphere's sanity. Like the bollocks about how 23 versions of Vista is better for everyone. Everyone but you, Microsoft and their fanboys believe that. The rest of the world knows that more is less.

November 23, 2008 12:30 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

robertsjoe math

4 = 23

Yep, Mac people sure are the smart ones

November 23, 2008 12:35 AM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos: "So, do you really expect people to take you seriously when all you add to the conversation is personal attacks based on things demonsterably not true?"

Is your memory failing? You cry that I add personal attacks to the conversation, this from someone that, prior to me saying what you responded to, called me a "smug, preening tosser". Cry me a river. You're also partial to the personal attacks.

November 23, 2008 12:56 AM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos: Forgot the smiley there to help you decipher sarcasm. *rolls eyes*

4 is too many. They got that wrong. Everyone else besides you, Microsoft and the rest of the rabid fanboys agrees it's wrong.

November 23, 2008 12:57 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

The consensus here was that optimal was 3 versions so 4 is hardly worth much fuss. And, odd, it's only the supposedly smarter Mac people who have trouble figuring out 4 choices and need someone to tell them what they want.

November 23, 2008 2:08 AM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos: You and Microsoft don't get it, do you? 4 and 3 is too many.

In the following list, there aren't 32 different products, it's just 4. As you can plainly see, Microsoft and you don't get it. Only Microsoft can confuse things by splitting 4 products in to 32!!! Totally stupid.

Windows Vista I - Basic

Windows Vista I - Home Premium

Windows Vista I - Business

Windows Vista I - Ultimate

Windows Vista I - Starter

Windows Home Server

Windows Media Center

Windows Vista I - Enterprise

Office Basic 2007

Office Enterprise 2007

Office Home and Student 2007

Office Professional 2007

Office Professional Plus 2007

Office Small Business 2007

Office Standard 2007

Office Ultimate 2007

SQL Sever Enterprise

SQL Sever Standard

SQL Sever Workgroup

SQL Sever Web

SQL Sever Developer

SQL Sever Express

SQL Sever Compact

Windows Server 2008 Datacenter

Windows Server 2008 Enterprise

Windows Server 2008 Standard

Windows Web Server 2008

Windows HPC Server 2008

Windows Server 2008 for Itanium-Based Systems

Windows Server 2008 Datacenter without Hyper-V.

Windows Server 2008 Enterprise without Hyper-V.

Windows Server 2008 Standard without Hyper-V.

November 23, 2008 2:28 AM
 

ccambell said:

Shheeeeessh  Microsoft Research.... what an oxymoron.

November 23, 2008 2:54 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"And, odd, it's only the supposedly smarter Mac people who have trouble figuring out 4 choices and need someone to tell them what they want."

A fisherman can only yank the pole* if you take the bait, Mike. You should have stopped after the first sentence.

* Insert Waethorn joke here. :-O

November 23, 2008 7:21 AM
 

johnpapola said:

"I will if you'll do the same and only talk about actual viruses that don't rely on social engineering and the user actively running them to work in Windows Vista."

Yet another dishonest dodge.  What Windows viruses have I talked about?  Oh, right, none.  I praised the Vista security improvements.  But when your entire mode of discussion in arguing with a strawman, it's easy to ignore what people are and aren't saying.

Is it just me, or have you truly descended into pure fanboy hackery?  You are utterly closed to any idea that isn't already in your head.  I wouldn't be surprised if you still feel Apple has monopoly power in your fictitious "mac market", even thought the courts have rejected that idea on the very grounds I have constantly argued against you using.

And you continue to blather about how Apple hasn't innovated since the Laserwriter.  Give me a break, man.  No sane person thinks that statement is honest or reasonable.  Nobody.

Face it mike, even the Windows advocates here think you're a fanboy hack that hurts their image and pollutes the threads with nonsense. It's time to act your age, man.  This single-minded behavior is toddler-level.

November 23, 2008 7:30 AM
 

shark47 said:

"They both think that their version of the truth is the only correct version, and in most cases, they are both wrong."

With all due respect, everyone here thinks their version of the truth is correct. I would say that if mike stays mum on topics such as Apple innovation and iPhone related topics, he's actually right more often than not. On the other hand, robertsjoe is a troll. Look at how many times the topic of discussion has changed because of him today. What started as a discussion about Apple's "deceptive" advertising quickly went downhill and into another Vista bashing session. Not surprisingly, the intelligence of Windows users was also questioned. There was the obvious discussion about PC viruses and, of course, on the number of Vista SKUs.

Please go back and look at each one of robertsjoe's posts and you'll see what I'm talking about. The fact that the topic of discussion changes so easily means that you guys are doing an effective job of feeding the troll. Keep it up.

November 23, 2008 8:46 AM
 

Dubious advertising tactics « Technoagita said:

Pingback from  Dubious advertising tactics &laquo; Technoagita

November 23, 2008 12:45 PM
 

Untitled 1 said:

Pingback from  Untitled 1

November 23, 2008 12:45 PM
 

The Jackass Continues: Paul Thurrott | Phil Nelson Writes Here said:

Pingback from  The Jackass Continues: Paul Thurrott | Phil Nelson Writes Here

November 23, 2008 1:03 PM
 

$500 million in advertising??? Did I use the Jump the Shark joke … said:

Pingback from  $500 million in advertising??? Did I use the Jump the Shark joke &#8230;

November 23, 2008 3:17 PM
 

Najlepsze Programy, Recenzje, Informacje. » Blog Archive » $500 million in advertising??? Did I use the Jump the Shark joke … said:

Pingback from  Najlepsze Programy, Recenzje, Informacje.  &raquo; Blog Archive   &raquo; $500 million in advertising??? Did I use the Jump the Shark joke &#8230;

November 23, 2008 3:20 PM
 

» dumbest microtard article… ever i drank the kool-aid: clutching my dixie cup of apple goodness said:

Pingback from  &raquo; dumbest microtard article&#8230; ever i drank the kool-aid: clutching my dixie cup of apple goodness

November 23, 2008 3:21 PM
 

Plus One for the Clever Hyperlink, Minus Several Million for Intelligence | curtis schweitzer (dot) net said:

Pingback from  Plus One for the Clever Hyperlink, Minus Several Million for Intelligence | curtis schweitzer (dot) net

November 24, 2008 2:07 AM
 

News Roundup for November the 24th said:

Pingback from  News Roundup for November the 24th

November 24, 2008 4:19 AM
 

Unsorted | Bashing | macfidelity said:

Pingback from  Unsorted | Bashing | macfidelity

November 24, 2008 10:23 AM
 

From Thurrott-speak to Logic and Reason | FarukAt.e?? said:

Pingback from  From Thurrott-speak to Logic and Reason | FarukAt.e??

November 24, 2008 11:48 AM
 

what is beta software | AMD.com said:

Pingback from  what is beta software  | AMD.com

November 29, 2008 11:50 AM
 

» speaking of frigtards i drank the kool-aid: clutching my dixie cup of apple goodness said:

Pingback from  &raquo; speaking of frigtards i drank the kool-aid: clutching my dixie cup of apple goodness

November 29, 2008 4:58 PM
 

toshiba satellite pro A200 laptop review(pros&cons) pt1of2 said:

Pingback from  toshiba satellite pro A200 laptop review(pros&amp;cons) pt1of2

December 4, 2008 6:18 AM
 

$500 million in advertising??? Did I use the Jump the Shark joke … · TV SeRiES said:

Pingback from  $500 million in advertising??? Did I use the Jump the Shark joke &#8230; &middot; TV SeRiES

December 28, 2008 6:53 AM
 

Wooden Model Ships said:

She was a woman in her sixties who had big blonde hair and would sing“ Good Ship Lollipop” and these sort of naughty songs, like“ I’ m Your Mailman” - I’ ll lift your knockers and ring your bell and you’ ll think I am swell, I’ m your mailman! I can come

March 28, 2009 12:07 AM
 

Websites tagged "jumptheshark" on Postsaver said:

Pingback from  Websites tagged "jumptheshark" on Postsaver

August 26, 2009 4:02 AM
Acceptable Use Policy

About pthurrott

Paul Thurrott is the guy behind the SuperSite for Windows. Way behind. :)
SPONSORED LINKS FEATURED LINKS

Calculate your savings nowSee how SAN is 57% cheaper than DAS over three years Free CDs Offer Fundamental Content for IT ProsAre you up to speed on the latest technologies and solutions? Don't miss out on your chance to get up to speed quickly on fundamental, in-depth information on some of the hottest topics in our library of content. Let Your Users Reset Their Own Passwords: Free Download Try a 30 day free trial of Desktop Authority Password Self-Service – it provides an easy-to-use, robust system for allowing users to reset their own forgotten passwords or locked accounts. Exchange Server 2010: Deploying Unified Communications - Virtual conferenceDecember 1, 2009 - Free Registration. Build your Unified Communications future on a strong Exchange Server 2010 foundation. Get Windows IT Pro & Mark Minasi’s Favorite Power Tools GuideOrder Windows IT Pro now and get "More of Mark Minasi's Favorite Power Tools"--a in-depth guide to the most useful Windows commands --FREE with your paid order! Subscribe today, and save 58% off the cover price! Migration, Virtualization, Availability, and Desktop ManagementRealize the importance of a workload optimization strategy...it can affect your bottom line! Deep Dive into VMware vSphere, eLearning SeriesJoin John Savill to explore the major functionality capabilities of the vSphere virtualization platform, including identification of the changes from ESX 3.5.
Windows IT Pro |  Subscribe |  Register |  FAQ for Windows |  Media Kit |  WinInfo News |  Europe Edition |  About Us |  Contact Us/Customer Service |  Affiliates/Licensing
SQL Server Magazine |  Office & SharePoint Pro |  WinDevPro |  asp.netPRO |  IT Library |  Technology Resource Directory |  ITTV |  IT Job Hound

© 2009 Penton Media, Inc.     Terms of Use | Privacy Statement | Reprints and Licensing