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A great Google article, the difference between 'easy' and 'simple,' and why this is a problem for Windows 7

The New York Times' David Carr wrote something that made me really sit up and take notice this morning, and for so many reasons that it's actually kind of hard to explain.

First, the basic premise of his article, which I agree with totally, is that Google's Web applications have taken hold with a certain audience because they're so simple:

Not long ago, someone invited me out to the Googleplex, the nickname for Google’s headquarters in Mountain View, Calif.

The fact is, I already live there. And it’s starting to worry me.

My increasingly exclusive relationship with Google started with search, of course, when I switched from Yahoo years ago. Eventually I accepted an invitation to Gmail, with its oodles of storage and very granular search function, and it has oddly become my default database — deep, rich and personal … I added the company’s calendar because I needed one I could share both inside and outside of work. And then the calendar and e-mail started talking to each other — and to me, I guess — by asking whether I wanted to schedule an event that was mentioned in an incoming message. Although it sort of creeped me out, the answer was yes, which it almost always is when it comes to Google.

[And so on. You get the idea.]

“The most powerful form of advertising is to be exceptional,” said Ranjit Mathoda, an investor and technologist who blogs at Mathoda.com. “Google has created an ecosystem that perpetuates itself by being useful.”

With Google, it is always simple, and any engineer will tell you that simple is hard.

If Google owns me, it’s probably because I am in favor of what works.

OK. This is all very obvious, right? Google’s Web applications are simple—they are—and a certain audience out there really appreciates that. One might argue that this approach—simplicity instead of an over-abundance of functionality—is also a big part of what is driving Apple’s successes right now. Many people prefer things that just work, even if the span of what’s possible is less vast than with competing solutions. Windows, by comparison, is arguably a bit much. It does more (yes, I know people with argue with that, but this isn’t really the point of this post) but does so with a more unwieldy interface.

So.

Since this is Google we’re talking about and Microsoft is about 3/5 of the way through releasing its Windows Live Wave 3 services and applications, it’s hard not to draw some parallels here. After all, Microsoft is in the midst of doing what Microsoft does: It’s releasing a massive platform. There are an unprecedented number of new and updated services (see my preview). And there is an entire suite of new and improved applications (see my preview). And they work in concert with each other in ways that are both exciting and, well, complicated. Not simple.

With that in mind, witness this bit from the aforementioned article:

Mr. Huber countered that I am free to come and go as I wish.

“The nice thing is that we don’t force you to use only our stuff,” he said. “It is not tied tightly together, and the content is all easily exportable. If you feel like we are letting you down, or you don’t like our products or we are failing to innovate, you can pick up and go where you want.”

Microsoft’s online stuff is very much tightly tied together. And while the company gets some props for making Windows Live interoperate with a huge range of third party services, you can’t help but notice that Microsoft can’t help being Microsoft. They didn’t just randomly add Flickr support to Windows Live Photo Gallery one day and Blogger support to Windows Live Writer three days later like Google might have done, noting it only in a blog posting. No, they are releasing a massive and complex platform that will bewilder users. Heck, it bewilders people like me who are pretty well involved in this industry. That’s what Microsoft does. And it’s not necessarily the right approach.

But that’s not all that this triggered.

I want to talk about Windows 7 a bit. I’ve been examining a number of builds of Microsoft’s next operating system for a while now, and I have to say, for all the goodness that’s happening there, there is something wrong, and it’s been stuck in the back of my mind. I haven’t really been able to enunciate what that problem is because I hadn’t really identified it yet. Until this morning.

Reading Mr. Carr’s article, it occurred to me that the problem with Windows 7 is the same thing that’s the problem with Mac OS X. That is, Microsoft is confusing “easy” with “simple.”

For example, Mac users have claimed for years that Mac OS X is “easy to use,” when in fact it is anything but. Mac OS X is simple. As noted above, simple is hard [to engineer]. And we should all give Apple credit for that. But simple is not the same as easy. One basic example: The Mac OS X desktop is a barren place with no obvious starting point. And the people who feel that it is easy are fooled because they are simply used to it. Things that are familiar seem easy. But they’re not necessarily easy to those who are unfamiliar with that thing or, in the case of potential Switchers, are familiar with something else. The Mac OS X desktop is simple. But it is not easy.

By contrast, the Windows desktop is easy in that it provides an obvious starting point (a Start button) and because Microsoft and its PC maker partners go a bit over the top presenting information to the user on first boot. Critics will argue that this also makes Windows convoluted. And they’re right, as it turns out. It’s hard to get the right mix of simple and easy. Apple errs to much on the side of simple, in my opinion. But Microsoft errs somewhere else: They overwhelm the user with functionality in a bid to make sure it works for everyone. All too often, the result is something that works for very few people.

OK, that’s Windows today. But what about Windows 7? As I and others have written, Windows 7 is all about a complete reexamination of the Windows OS. Microsoft has probed into every visible and invisible corner of the system and tweaked virtually everything. The result is, condescendingly, “Vista done right” or, in my mind, simply a very finely tuned tool. As a friend noted via IM the other day, [I’m paraphrasing here], it’s pretty clear that what we’ve seen so far in Windows 7 is it. There’s nothing more coming. And I don’t know whether to be excited by that or freaked.

The problem with Windows 7 is that Microsoft is copying the Mac, again. No, they’ll never really make Windows as simple as Mac OS X, though by God they’re going to try. And the reason they won’t is because you can’t simply erase decades of piling on functionality on top of functionality. Windows will always be a Swiss Army knife. You can’t escape your heritage.

Windows 7 copies Mac OS X in ways that are bad. I will give one specific example here, but save the rest for a more formal article: The new taskbar copies Mac OS X’s terrible Dock by allowing you to mix and match shortcuts (to applications and windows that are not running) and buttons that represent applications and windows that are running. Those running apps and windows can be visible or hidden, and there are subtle changes to the taskbar buttons to note that. You can drag and drop these buttons into any order you want. Looking at my taskbar right now, I see these types of buttons in this order: Shortcut (not running), Shortcut (not running), Shortcut (running), Shortcut (not running), Shortcut (running), Shortcut (running), Shortcut (running), Shortcut (running), Shortcut (running). It’s a mess. It is simple, I guess. But it is not easy to use.

But the Windows 7 taskbar isn’t just a mess because of this one thing. No, the Windows 7 taskbar is a mess because the way it works is not discoverable (i.e. it is simple but not easy). You can do awkward and undiscoverable things like click and drag upward on a button for an active window: This displays the Jump List, a key new feature of Windows 7. What the heck is that? Who would ever do that, other than by mistake? Is that really how we expose new functionality in Windows 7? Yes. Yes, it is. (You can also display a button Jump List by right-clicking, another unnatural action for taskbar buttons, though that one is arguably more easily learned because we do do that elsewhere in Windows.)

Another weirdness. When an application shortcut is “pinned” to the taskbar, it disappears from the Start Menu Most Recently Used (MRU) list. (That’s the list of shortcuts on the left side of the Vista and 7 Start Menu.) So if you already have, say, Firefox running, and you want to open a new Firefox window, doing so from the shell is now very difficult. Too difficult, I’d argue: Simple, but not easy. In Windows Vista, I can simply open the Start Menu and click Firefox, which is the very first icon in the menu. (Or, better still, I can tap WINKEY + DOWN ARROW + ENTER, something I’m very used to doing because I am familiar with Windows.) In Windows 7, Firefox doesn’t appear in the Start Menu because I’ve pinned it to the taskbar. So … how do I open a new Firefox window?

Well, I could use Firefox of course. But how do I do it from the shell? Here’s how: I have to somehow make the existing Firefox button’s Jump List appear and then choose “Mozilla Firefox” from the list. This is bad form for many, many reasons:

1. It’s not discoverable. Where did the Firefox shortcut I’m used to go? There is new functionality—pin to taskbar—but it kills old functionality. In Windows Vista, adding a shortcut to Quick Launch didn’t remove it from the Start Menu.

2. It can and will change. Right now, Mozilla isn’t modifying the Firefox Jump List, so this app gets the default list. But Mozilla will change it in the future. And then the way to open a new window will be different for every application. So much for muscle memory. And I can prove it: In Firefox today, the “Mozilla Firefox” choice is the bottom one on the list. But in IE 8, where Microsoft has in fact modified the jump list, the “Internet Explorer” link, which opens a new window is—guess where … go ahead, guess—that’s right, it’s the top item in the list. Way to go, Microsoft. There’s nothing like inconsistency.

3. When you mouse-over the Firefox button in the taskbar, a preview of existing Firefox windows appears, and you can close individual windows by clicking a little red X next to each. So it’s actually easier to close an existing window now than open a new one because the chance of a user mousing over something is more likely than right-clicking or, heaven forbid, clicking and dragging up.

Now, I could in fact launch Firefox from the Start Menu. But doing so is also convoluted because it’s not in the MRU. So I would have to open All Programs and manually navigate the folder where the icon is located. Simple? I guess. Easy? No.

I will try to flesh this concept out. But here’s my biggest fear: Folks, Windows 7 is in the can. It’s done. There are no major changes coming and Microsoft will ship this much more quickly than many realize. And that’s another way in which Windows 7 is like Mac OS X: This new functionality was implemented without any formal testing at all. Are we really to believe that the company will alter this and other functionality dramatically after the one and only public beta is released in early 2009? I just don’t see it happening.

What Microsoft has done in Windows 7 is mostly good, mostly very, very good. But Microsoft, I feel, is confusing simple with easy in this release. They’re trying to make Windows more like the Mac. And while that may or many not be an improvement over the current convoluted UI model, it’s not the same as making Windows easy.

It’s not the same at all.

Comments

 

Master3 said:

I prefer Windows easy because it gives me the option to get complicated later as my ability to handle those things become easier, rather than Google simple that has everything there is out front, and no other higher functions to take advantage of as I see fit.

November 24, 2008 8:32 AM
 

shark47 said:

Paul, I think you've missed the point here. It's not simple vs. easy. It's mature application vs. new application. Most of Google's applications are new and most new applications are easy because the developers can pick and choose features that most people will use and cull out the rest. The iPod was easy to use when it launched. Firefox was easy. Most of Google's products are too. And I would add the Zune to this list.

Over time, people demand new features and with every new software release, the feature list increases and users continue to evolve with the product. For long time users, it's like going from a 100 level course to a 300 level course in 5-6 years and most people can manage it. At some point, however, the UI becomes too confusing for new users and so the company has to re-evaluate it. They cannot remove any of the existing features for the fear of annoying some users. So they have to work with the existing features in an attempt to make the UI as intuitive as possible. That's what the ribbon menu, the NXE, and the taskbar refresh were all about. If Microsoft had the freedom to redo Office, I'm pretty sure they would've taken a different route.

November 24, 2008 8:35 AM
 

pthurrott said:

shark... I do agree with what you say, and I have written about how iTunes and the iPod started off simple and easy, but have only gotten more complex over time. (Now they're easy only if you've been using them all along or have gotten used to how it works.) But this is a side point, I guess.

Apple started over with Mac OS X from a technical angle, but they kept the same desktop metaphor. Microsoft is taking the Vista desktop and making it ... well, simpler. But its just hiding things, not making them truly simpler. One of the other issues I'll discuss eventually is the new system tray, which hides icons by default. Hey, it's cleaner. But now all this stuff is running that people don't know about, and Microsoft has removed the one tool (System Explorer in Defender) that could get rid of them. Argh.

This is a complex issue, it really is. But this is all part of it.

November 24, 2008 8:55 AM
 

shark47 said:

I know you like GMail, Paul, but that's actually a good example of a confusing Google product. There is just so much information on that one screen. Also, have you looked at the Settings? This is one product that I would say needs an overhaul soon. Windows Live Mail, with that new refresh looks like a breath of fresh air compared to GMail.

Regarding inconsistencies in Windows 7, it's just not acceptable. Microsoft needs to fix them by the time the beta is out. Hopefully, you've pointed it out to them and hopefully they'll take care of it.

November 24, 2008 8:56 AM
 

nutts said:

Nicely balanced article that; a good read.

Still not sure why you're still not sold on the 'dock' task bar though, with mixing open and not-open applications. After all why should the user care whether an application is already open or not, they just see icons for applications and click them. They shouldn't need to care, and if they do care there is a subtle indication of the difference, which is enough in my opinion.

For example, lets take the case of a user wanting to open an application not directly visible on the desktop.

With the new Task Bar (or existing OSX Dock):

1. Think about application I want to use

2. Find icon for application in the Task Bar

3. Click it

With the existing Vista task bar:

1. Think about application I want to use

2. Look at the task bar to see if it's already open

3. If it's not, click the Start button

4. Find the application in the menus

5. Click it

Surely just that one use case explains why the new Task Bar (Dock) is both Easy *and* Simple.

Note: I'm assuming in this use case that all required applications have been placed in the Task Bar/Dock in advance (as will most probably be the natural case over time). The process to get application icons onto the Task Bar/Dock in the first place is a whole other story.

November 24, 2008 8:57 AM
 

Xtreem0 said:

Only real thing i would argue is that you are always able to change the taskbar to be the same as it was with windows vista. Just some people would not know how to do that.

November 24, 2008 8:57 AM
 

shark47 said:

Paul, fair enough. Although, I would say that simple or easy, by themselves are easy. It's achieving the right balance of simple and easy that's hard. :-)

November 24, 2008 9:34 AM
 

kalewallace said:

Let's not forget the ever-easy application "stack" in Leopard that leaves you searching for an application for 10 min.

I'm not a big fan of the new 7 taskbar either.  Windows needs a kick in the pants and I don't think a little spit-shine here and there is exactly what I was expecting...

November 24, 2008 9:45 AM
 

MrDiSante said:

Nutts: in a perfect world where every computer has unlimited resources it wouldn't matter. In the real world, it matters greatly: RAM, processing power, harddrive access, network bandwidth and just about everything else is limited.

Yes, RAM is cheap, yes processors are more powerful than ever, but they are still limited. I run what I consider to be a very stream-lined system, nevertheless my machine boots at 800 MB of RAM usage and hit over 1400 in the average session. Most of my friends and family run into situations where 2 and even 3 gigabytes isn't enough.

You've also got to take into account the fact that not everyone realizes that there's no reason to be using a 4-year-old computer: a lot of people are still running pre-Core 2 era machines with under 2 GB of RAM . Also, it's important to note that many manufacturers still find an excuse to ship computers with less than 2 GB of RAM (Apple's iMac and Mac Mini among those).

Finally, most programs written today are very poor citizens: programs which should idle in the background end up consuming obscene amounts of resources. They thrash the HDD for no reason whatsoever, eat CPU cycles when not doing anything, provide pop-ups and all sorts of crap like that.

While it would be nice to live in a world where every program is written with the user in mind and everyone has a nice, modern computer, that world is not and probably will never be a reality. As such, we computer users are left with no choice but to use task management systems such as the current taskbar, which may not look as good, but are far more efficient at reminding the user to close the programs they're not using and to keep the number of programs at least somewhat reasonable.

November 24, 2008 9:54 AM
 

aemarques said:

I know what you mean, but the same can be said of Office: it tries to be everything to everyone. However, in the last iteraction (Office 2007), MS has managed to make it both simpler and easier. Probably the same can be made in WIndows 7, I don't know.

About Google aplications. Yes, the search is still both easy and simple, but I don't know about the rest... Right now, Hotmail is actually better than Google Mail; and many other stuff is just fun to use - but then again, "just" fun.

One case is Picasa (that was NOT a Google original app): it is so good that even my wife can use it without asking me for help. It is 100% of what is needed for something very specific, i.e., to "light edit" photos and send it to your printer. But can't do much more...

Regarding Chrome, It did not pass my "wife test" at all!

Anyway, I agree with you, but between "simple" and "easy", I still prefer "easy" even when it is not that "simple"... :-)

November 24, 2008 9:56 AM
 

Ocean said:

It's funny watching the Winjihadists get disappointed by their idol....

Great article Paul.

Now tell us something about this Kumo name MS is thinking about using for Live Search?  I think it could be a good idea.

And also tell us how MS is feeling now about the much ballyhooed advertising dollars it spent (someone should be fired).

November 24, 2008 10:16 AM
 

RobertC said:

Paul I seem to recall you gushing over Windows 7 not so long ago - now the new taskbar is public enemy no. 1? lol

November 24, 2008 10:18 AM
 

DRWAM said:

Agreed that the wife test is a good metric for simplicity. While Office 2007 got more confusing with more icons and less text, I still prefer it and my 7 yr olds are learning very quikly.

Gmail on the iPhone ain't bad, but on my computer is stinky. I have told before how I replied to a reply from my original email, only to have it reply back to my own account, listed under the first reply so it was not shown as a new email on the computer. I finally noticed the new email on my iphone, and realized that it sent the reply back to my own gmail account. Very aggravating.

November 24, 2008 10:22 AM
 

shark47 said:

This is the problem that I was talking about the other day. There is no way one can have a meaningful discussion with trolls like Ocean and robertsjoe lurking in the shadows. The WinJihadist remarks was uncalled for and totally unnecessary. And Ocean continues to use the same tactics - start with a sentence on the topic and then attempt to hijack the thread.

November 24, 2008 10:24 AM
 

Master3 said:

@Ocean

You are obviously trying to derail, and nose-dive this thread, so just knock it off.

And for crying out loud can everyone else avoid doing this too?

November 24, 2008 10:27 AM
 

gorath said:

I've got to agree with nutts about the shortcut/program thing. Do we really need to care if it's running or not?

As for the launching a new window instance, that seems very annoying to me, and they really should have considered a better way of doing it.

BUT

no-one I know as of right now has the actual W7 taskbar, just a lookalike, basically.

I'm doubtful, but it could well change by release, or beta.

November 24, 2008 10:29 AM
 

Dipsh t Admin said:

"It's funny watching the Winjihadists get disappointed by their idol"

What are you talking about?  I see a very rational discussion going on here, with good points being brought up.  It has actually been quite civilized and productive.  Of course Mike and robertsjoe haven't shown up, so that may change.

November 24, 2008 10:31 AM
 

Ocean said:

I thought the article was great.  How is that derailing?  Because I don't go along with the Winfanboy notion that Paul shouldn't criticize MS?

Paul isn't saying anything that Jon Gruber hasn't said a million times before:  >>a massive and complex platform that will bewilder users<<

Paul is a bit bewildered by it all.  So is Ed Bott, and Mary Jo Foley.

What are we to make of that?  That the commenters here are smarter than those three?  No way...where is your column and successful blog?

Good article Mr. Thurrott.

November 24, 2008 10:34 AM
 

Ocean said:

>>What are you talking about?<<

This:

>Paul, I think you've missed the point here.<

November 24, 2008 10:38 AM
 

Master3 said:

"Because I don't go along with the Winfanboy notion that Paul shouldn't criticize MS?"

Using terms like: Winfanboy, Winjihadist . And then pressing an irrational conclusion that Windows users think  "that Paul shouldn't criticize MS". Nothing but flame bait.

Dipsh t Admin is right that there is a good back and forth that is going on, and it seriously doesn't need lame attempts to try to bring it down into a flame cluster freak.

November 24, 2008 10:40 AM
 

tayme said:

With the mixture of running and non-running icons on the 7 Taskbar, my question is, how will I open a new instance of a running application? There are times that I want to have seperate instances running. On OS X, if I click the icon for an app that is already running, it just brings the running instance to the front. Hopefully, MS will make it easy to open another instance. I also hope that MS does not do with 7 what OS X does...when you close the application window with the red X or the whatever, it does not actually shut down the app...it just closes the current window...leaving the app open in the backround.

--tayme

November 24, 2008 10:46 AM
 

bettieblu said:

At work we have had way more complaints about Office 2007 than we do praise.  It comes down to "who moved my cheese".  Users are frustrated at first not knowing how to do things they have done for years the same way and have a hard time finding it.  Will they get used to it, sure.  Some on older machines complain about the speed, like scrolling through a word doc, or opening Outlook, both of which are slower vs 2003 versions.

The best example I like to use when it comes to "simple" Leopard vs Vista is Time Machine for Joe User.  Time Machine is the most user friendly, stupid proof backup application I have seen.  Compare it to Volume Shadow copy and its night and day for Joe User.

When I think about a meeting at Apple when they were designing Time Machine, I imagine them very focused on the user and making it easy. Omitting features that they thought would not be used very much or would be to complex for the average user.

When I think about the same thing at Microsoft, I imagine them touting all of things the app can do, and how its better, more capable, has more features or whatever compared to the competition, and how they think the average user will see this and want it.

Its a very tough balance to nail.  Example iPhoto is a just right me 99% of the time and I think it has lots of appeal.  However if I started to get serious about photo's it would be a toy compared to other stuff.

Going from Windows to OS X I missed my taskbar that is for sure.  The Dock does have the white dots for applications and Expose is middle mouse click away, but I still miss the doc.  On a per app basis some open apps in the dock can be right clicked on and you can choose things like "new window" in safari but sadly not in FF3 which is my default.

November 24, 2008 10:47 AM
 

shark47 said:

">>What are you talking about?<<

This:

>Paul, I think you've missed the point here.<"

The conversation was civil until you decided to show up, troll. I didn't disagree that Windows was complicated. I didn't say Paul should't criticize Microsoft. I said he got the concept of simple vs. easy wrong. A new product will in most cases be simpler and easier than a mature product. Windows is an extremely mature platform and over the years, new features have been added that increase complexity. The goal for Microsoft was to simplify the UI without getting rid of the added functionality. That's all I said.

Getting it easy is easy - just keep the 20-30% of the features that 80-90% of the people use and provide easy access to them. Keeping it simple is also easy. Hide the 70%-80% of the features that only 10%-20% of the people use and provide an easy access to the other ones. It's getting the balance of simplicity and ease of use right that's the challenge.

I haven't used Windows 7 and I cannot comment on it. But I agreed with Paul that inconsistencies are not acceptable and a consistent experience itself goes a long way in improving the user experience..

To reiterate, you attempted to raise the tension in what was a civil conversation up till this point. Shame on you, Ocean.

November 24, 2008 10:50 AM
 

Ocean said:

I am a Windows user, just not a Winideologue...and I'm glad Paul criticizes Windows.  It seems like they may *finally* have gotten right with Win7, but then again it seems like the more people have time to think through the product and chip away at it, the more the sheen fades.

Anyone notice that Paul is seriously under-reporting the "Vista Capable" case?  The plaintiffs just won a motion to drag Ballmer into court to testify.  The whole thing is quite salacious.  (I hope he doesn't throw a chair at the judge)

November 24, 2008 10:51 AM
 

Ocean said:

>>At work we have had way more complaints about Office 2007 than we do praise.  It comes down to "who moved my cheese".  Users are frustrated at first not knowing how to do things they have done for years the same way and have a hard time finding it.<<

So MS is costing your company time and money instead of helping you to save it?

I view changes like that the same way I would if GM out of the blue swapped the location of the accelerator and the brake pad because 'tests show an xx% increase" in some meaningless statistic.

November 24, 2008 10:54 AM
 

bettieblu said:

"when you close the application window with the red X or the whatever, it does not actually shut down the app...it just closes the current window...leaving the app open in the backround."

I could not agree more.  It reminds me of Windows Mobile and how nothing really closes down.  You can command Q the app and it will shut all the way down.  

One thing Apple does not do very well is give you options for some things.  Its Apple way or the highway.  Click on the red circle and how it responds should be configurable in System Preferences.

Cut and Paste is another, HELLO every other OS on the planet does that Apple.  Just give us an option.  I use PathFinder to do it now.

November 24, 2008 10:54 AM
 

Ocean said:

>>The conversation was civil until you decided to show up, troll. <<

>>a civil conversation<<

This is richly ironic in about 500 different ways.

November 24, 2008 10:55 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

"I see a very rational discussion going on here, with good points being brought up.  It has actually been quite civilized and productive."

Actually, I wish it were. Most of the posts so far really come down to:

"I agree, 'x' sucks" or "I disagree, 'x' sucks" where 'x' is an app or feature that either reinforces or contradicts one premise or another of either the article (which actually reads like it was written by the Google equivalent of a Mac fanatic) or Paul's comment.

A discussion of how to balance depth of function versus discoverability would be interesting. It's a hard topic. The problem that has barely been touched on is that people, including reviewers, confuse simplistic with simple. That's easy to do when you're spending an hour with a product to write a review and working off of canned demo data and a "reviewer's guide" that walks you through the scenarios. Unfortunately, few reviewers tend to go deeper. (Paul being an exception at least on some occasions) The problem is that users, with their own real data, do go deeper, need to do tasks that weren't in that carefully planned reviewer's guide and with simplistic apps quickly hit a wall. And, often, the users, after seeing the great "reviews" of how "simple" something was, think the problem is that they can't figure out something "simple" when, instead, it's that they've actually gone beyond the limits of a "simplistic" program.

November 24, 2008 11:01 AM
 

Ocean said:

>>When I think about a meeting at Apple when they were designing Time Machine, I imagine them very focused on the user and making it easy. Omitting features that they thought would not be used very much or would be to complex for the average user.

When I think about the same thing at Microsoft, I imagine them touting all of things the app can do, and how its better, more capable, has more features or whatever compared to the competition, and how they think the average user will see this and want it.<<

Well written.

November 24, 2008 11:01 AM
 

Dipsh t Admin said:

">>What are you talking about?<<

This:

>Paul, I think you've missed the point here.<"

So when is a simple disagreement suddenly a fanboy, "us versus them" argument?  I didn't see that at all, and it was only you Ocean that seems to think that.

You thinking that the article is great is not derailing.  I thought it was a good article, and I believe that shark also through it was a good article.  However, bringing up the WinJihadist term was uncalled for in this instance.  Now if you were predicting the future when the Mike/Robertsjoe Show starts, then you should have said that.

Anyway, Paul, you bring up some really good points, but I think that it would require much more than just a change in software engineering to accomplish what you are pointing to.  The entire structure of how a business makes money is part of why certain things are done the way they are.  Marketers demand features.  They demand it since they need to sell something.  

Google succumbs to this as well.  They needed a feature to get you in to GMail.  Huge storage space and advanced searching capabilities.  They now have added themes, something that strays from the KISS principle in a very big way.  As time goes on, nearly all products will stray away from simplicity.

November 24, 2008 11:05 AM
 

millia said:

Hopefully, this discussion can stay productive. Very good article.

I would argue that Microsoft has erred on this choice many times before. Case in point: extensions. The first thing I do for many people I help with XP is have to turn back on file extensions. File format matters, and a person not being able to see whether something is BMP or JPG is bad.

Itunes is confusing, looking at it objectively; I found WMP to be confusing last time I used it, but iTunes is only a little simpler.

I do know that if you're going to get rid of the standard WIMP interface, though, you better have a good reason. Based on watching people use Office2k7, I haven't seen that to be the case. Nobody is using the features that are newly simplified. I can show people styles until I'm blue in the face, they still don't use them. Perhaps low usage rates for certain features wasn't the fault of the interface- perhaps it was just that they weren't hugely interesting...

November 24, 2008 11:06 AM
 

Ocean said:

>>the article (which actually reads like it was written by the Google equivalent of a Mac fanatic) <<

Can anyone say with a straight face that Mike Galos didn't just attack Paul Thurrott?

November 24, 2008 11:07 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

shark

"Getting it easy is easy - just keep the 20-30% of the features that 80-90% of the people use and provide easy access to them. Keeping it simple is also easy. Hide the 70%-80% of the features that only 10%-20% of the people use and provide an easy access to the other ones."

Precisely what Office did a decade ago with the two tiered menu system that had simple and advanced versions of the menus and later had menus that hid the features that the user didn't use.

Unfortunately, neither of those solutions works very well.

Hiding based on a general case (even with excellent understanding of what features really were used by 80% and what weren't) doesn't work because virtually everybody uses one or two obscure features not on that list and moving them off the "easy" menu now makes the hard to discover.

Hiding based on the user's specific case leaves a couple of other problems, first, while the system learns what the user really uses, the UI is fully complex and intimidating. Hiding an initial set leaves you with the initial hiding problems. And, even once the system learns what the user uses, hiding the rest hurts the user when they need to do something new.

November 24, 2008 11:10 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Ocean,

Actually, I was criticizing the article Paul was referencing.

November 24, 2008 11:10 AM
 

Ocean said:

>>I think that it would require much more than just a change in software engineering to accomplish what you are pointing to.<<

As alluded to in the timemachine comment I quoted, it's company culture.  nothing more, nothing less.

November 24, 2008 11:13 AM
 

Ocean said:

>>I was criticizing the article Paul was referencing.<<

Great spin.  Yet, Paul did say of the article:

>>First, the basic premise of his article, which I agree with totally...<<

November 24, 2008 11:15 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Ocean

You seem to confuse disagreement with "attack". And many of your posts seem to show that's not isolated to this specific article.

Now, let's get back to discussing "simple" versus "simplistic" versus "easy". Something that actually is worth discussion.

November 24, 2008 11:24 AM
 

Ocean said:

Semantics, Mike.  Semantics.

You attacked him, you attacked his position.  Its an attack.

Call it you will.

November 24, 2008 11:28 AM
 

rjohn05 said:

This is a really good article. As a UI designer finding the easy/simple balance (let alone understanding the difference between simple and easy) is VERY difficult to do. However, there is one thing that I feel is important to understand when it comes to UI design and that is that at some point you have to make the tough decision as to what functionality will have to be a "training opportunity" for the user and what is discoverable in the interface.

November 24, 2008 11:31 AM
 

shark47 said:

"You thinking that the article is great is not derailing.  I thought it was a good article, and I believe that shark also through it was a good article."

I did, Dipsh. Paul should be hard on Microsoft if he thinks they're going on the wrong path. After all, Microsoft doesn't need its reviewers to be a team of sycophants. Paul is not criticizing Microsoft for the sake of criticizing it here, but in order to help the company improve its products and Microsoft would do well to listen.

Did anyone notice that Ocean has tried to take the thread in three different directions - live search, Windows advertising, and the lawsuit?

November 24, 2008 11:31 AM
 

Ocean said:

Did anyone notice that Shark is obsessed with me?

November 24, 2008 11:34 AM
 

BrightrevCarl said:

@Paul

When you pin an icon to the taskbar in Windows 7, does it prevent you from pinning it to the Start Menu MRU list, or does it just remove the icon from the list and force you to put it back yourself?  What does double-clicking the taskbar icon do?  (I assumed this would open a new window.)  Where do I get a legal copy of the Windows 7 Beta?

November 24, 2008 11:36 AM
 

shark47 said:

"Did anyone notice that Shark is obsessed with me?"

Good point. For long, I've professed "ignoring the troll". Now is the time to put it in action.

rjohn, good point. With Office, Microsoft did take a tough decision. Whether it has worked or not will be known in a year or two. There will always be the initial bickering etc., when something is change. Again, people are inherently resistant to change.

November 24, 2008 11:40 AM
 

shark47 said:

Last point: Paul's also running a half-baked version of the new taskbar. That MIGHT have something to do with it too. Again, MIGHT.

November 24, 2008 11:42 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Some examples of "simplistic" being confused with "simple" or "easy":

When Microsoft replaced Write with WordPad, quite a few reviewers were certain that most people would stop buying Word because WordPad did the same things as Word in the same format and they thought most users would be fine with that subset and would like that it was simpler. They mistook simplistic for simple.

When online word processors started showing up, quite a few reviewers were certain that most people would stop buying Word because the online products did the same things as Word and they thought most users would be fine with that subset and would like that it was simpler. They mistook simplistic for simple.

When the "free" word processors started showing up, quite a few reviewers were certain that most people would stop buying Word because those "free" products did the same things as Word, ofetn in the same format and they thought most users would be fine with that subset and would like that it was simpler. They mistook simplistic for simple.

In all those cases, the mistake was thinking that cutting features was, somehow, a good thing for "the users".

Also, in these same cases, the reviewers seemed to have the same condescending attitude that while they needed the full feature product, "users" really didn't and while they could understand a complex product, "users" weren't up to the task.

(Key rule for reading reviews: when a reviewer says some product is a great solution but not one that's right for them, find a different reviewer. The same went for all the executives at server companies who touted "thin client computing" for "users" but who kept full computers for themselves.)

November 24, 2008 11:43 AM
 

Ocean said:

>>Where do I get a legal copy of the Windows 7 Beta?<<

Ditto.

Interesting article:

>>Microsoft is rising quickly on a running list of the Top 10 Worst Spam Service ISPs as maintained by spamhaus.org...

The software giant debuted on the list earlier this month at number 9 (one being the worst), and has slid over the past few days down to number 5.<<

voices.washingtonpost.com/.../spamhaus_microsoft_now_5th_mos.html

November 24, 2008 11:44 AM
 

Ocean said:

>>A FLAW has been discovered in Microsoft's flagship Windows Vista operating system, but the company has said it won't fix the glitch until its next, as-yet unannounced, service pack.

Discovered by Austrian researcher Thomas Unterleitner of the insecurity company Phion and announced last Friday, the buffer overflow flaw reportedly exists in Vista's networking I/O subsystem.

It can cause a blue screen of death system crash, allow denial of service attacks, or enable injection of rootkits or other malware such as viruses, trojans, bots or keyloggers.

Unterleitner told ZDnet UK that Phion had notified Microsoft of the vulnerability in October.<<

www.theinquirer.net/.../vista-kernel-vulnerable

November 24, 2008 11:49 AM
 

techfan said:

I think Microsoft knows what it is doing with the Taskbar, which is a big part of the OS. I like the new Windows 7 taskbar. I mean, I haven't used it but from what I've seen and read about it, I think I will like using it. (A good thing about reading sites like this (WinSuperSite) and others is that one gets ready for what's coming by reading about it.) As far as pinned running/pinned not running program, I like a clean Taskbar; in Windows XP all I have is three button -- Show Desktop, IE and WLMail. In Windows 7, I'll only have two: IE and WLMail (and maybe WLPG and WMP). I think the average user will have the same and those that are more advanced users might have more than one pinned shortcut and will know which program is open and which is not.

Re: Google and simple/easy -- Gmail is one of the few products that Google has made that it is neither simple nor easy to use. Remember how there was no Delete button; you had to click on the drop down to delete an email? Unless other web mail providers (Y! Mail and Hotmail), If you're reading an email and delete it, Gmail doesn't automatically take you to the next email but goes back to the message list.

@tayme: Re: Closed app in OS X but still running -- That's something very confusing about Mac OS X that I do not like. I closed the program/window but the program is still running. I think to actually close an app, you have to go to the app name in the menu bar and Quite. I think, or that's just to close an app that's not responding. Another thing that I don't think that I don't like about Mac OS X is how it minimizes apps. The app is close but running and minimized on the right side of the Dock, not where the icon for the app is located when you first opened it. I think that's confusing.

November 24, 2008 11:52 AM
 

Ocean said:

People buy Office from force of habit and inertia.  

November 24, 2008 11:52 AM
 

tayme said:

@techfan - You are correct. To actually close the application reather than the window, you have to use the app menu. An example of "easy" but not "simple" in my view. MS does the whole application management much better, in my opinion. It is intuitive along with "easy" and "simple"...but again, like somebody earlier said, that may be due to the fact that it is what I am accustomed to.

--tayme

November 24, 2008 12:17 PM
 

Master3 said:

@Ocean

Will you please STOP trying to divert this thread!

If you have nothing of substance to add to this subject, then stop posting so we don't have to wade through your nonsense to get to relevant postings.

November 24, 2008 12:18 PM
 

Ocean said:

Master,

You're off-topic.  Please correct this; thanks!

November 24, 2008 12:24 PM
 

SandmanX82 said:

I swear, if some of you people (ie. Ocean) are older than a teenager, you must lead very, very sad lives.   Grow up already.

November 24, 2008 12:27 PM
 

DRWAM said:

I bought  Office 2004 with a fre upgrade to 2008 because it was $29 after rebate.  I got the media edtion at that! MS sent the wrong edition of 2008.  A 10 minute or less call got me both editions and a refund of the $10shipping charge from a very nice Canadian rep. I live in Jersey.

November 24, 2008 12:27 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

So, Doc, are you using your $29 copy of Office 2008 on your $400 Vista laptop?

November 24, 2008 12:34 PM
 

bettieblu said:

"So, Doc, are you using your $29 copy of Office 2008 on your $400 Vista laptop?"

I have run Leopard in a VMware Workstation 6.5, on Vista so its possible to run Office 2008 on your $400 Acer notebook, and in a Unity Mode no less.  Why you would want to do it I dont know, as Office 2008 is just a crippled slower version of 2007.

November 24, 2008 12:47 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

(Really just wanted to give Doc a chance to mention the $400 Vista laptop)

We now return to "Simple" vs "Easy" vs "Simplistic"

November 24, 2008 1:03 PM
 

scarper said:

I don't comment here much but it's really frustrating to see a child like Ocean in an otherwise interesting and informative conversation. You're the worst kind of Internet infant. You don't even argue very well which is why I hope you're not an adult because you'd fail at even my high school debate team.

There's nothing noble about writing profanity on a wall and then giggling anonymously while you watch people react to it. I'm sorry you're so lonely. Sad and dumb and lonely.

BTW I own a Mac and run Windows on it about as much as I run OSX. So I'm pretty bipartisan which is why I enjoy hearing different, rational, points of view. So stop screaming your childishness at the top of your lungs for the attention for a change. You really do come off as foolish.

November 24, 2008 1:37 PM
 

shark47 said:

Microsoft should hire Long Zheng. He'll help them a lot.

www.windows7taskforce.com

November 24, 2008 1:38 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"Using terms like: Winfanboy, Winjihadist ."

Don't forget "WinJihadist", a phrase I started using after Paul's attempt to coin "iCabal". I bet I've used the former a lot less than he's used the latter. I refuse to apologize for that.

November 24, 2008 2:05 PM
 

Ocean said:

It is a bit hypocritical to enjoy the term iCabal and be offended at the others.

November 24, 2008 2:07 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

@bettiblu:

"The best example I like to use when it comes to "simple" Leopard vs Vista is Time Machine for Joe User.  Time Machine is the most user friendly, stupid proof backup application I have seen.  Compare it to Volume Shadow copy and its night and day for Joe User."

Completely agreed. Time Machine has saved my bacon more than once by letting me recover a file from a specific previous day. I've become so accustomed to it, I sometimes don't even bother to save alternate versions of short-term projects because they're already "there" in the archive. Far from being gimmicky (and believe me, I was more than a little skeptical at first), its interface is excellent, and a great example of powerful "simplicity".

" iPhoto is a just right me 99% of the time and I think it has lots of appeal.  However if I started to get serious about photo's it would be a toy compared to other stuff."

I thought iPhoto was just about perfect until I started using Aperture, which has all but replaced Photoshop for 90% of what I do. iPhoto is great, but Aperture blows it out of the water; it's just about the best money I've ever spent on any software package ever..

November 24, 2008 2:15 PM
 

SandmanX82 said:

Well being iCabal has nothing to do with this thread in any way whatsoever, why bring it up?

November 24, 2008 2:15 PM
 

shark47 said:

I guess right clicking on a file and selecting "Restore previous versions" gives some people nightmares. It's easy to use but just like many other "hidden" features, it hasn't been advertised well. For me, "simplicity" is not another word for "gimmicky".

November 24, 2008 2:24 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"They overwhelm the user with functionality in a bid to make sure it works for everyone."

OH NOES!  Perish the thought of something actually being functional.  Steve Job's dream computer would have a single button and does not compute.

Speaking of which:

www.engadget.com/.../macbook-and-macbookpro-suffer-performance-anxiety-once-the-batt

OMGHSROFLMFAO!

Seriously, whoever said Apple spends enough on R&D a few articles ago should actually read that.  I mean, gawdammit, they should go back to the drawing board or else get out of the hardware business altogether.  You can't run a MacBook off the AC power cable designed for it??? LOL!

What, do they have the marketing guys doing hardware design?  "Calling Dr. Lexus.  We need you to design our next notebook."

youtube.com/watch

November 24, 2008 2:33 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"Well being iCabal has nothing to do with this thread in any way whatsoever, why bring it up?"

I was responding to the original poster's comment that disparaging terms for PC users bring down the overall tenor and tone of the conversation, while pointing out that s/he conveniently ignored Paul's invented "iCabal" word.

November 24, 2008 2:34 PM
 

bettieblu said:

@Waethorn, honestly who takes out their battery for this purpose?  I have never run a notebook like that.  Not that I am discounting the problem but I dont know anyone that does that.  What's the impact less than 1% or 1%?

I never take my battery out of the notebook unless its so hung the power button wont shut it down, or I am adding RAM or something.

November 24, 2008 2:45 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Shark

"I guess right clicking on a file and selecting "Restore previous versions" gives some people nightmares."

You're missing the key feature that makes Time Machine such a "special" backup utility, the whirling starscape background! Why, it's the epitome of that "clean, UI design" that Apple fans go on and on about.

November 24, 2008 2:46 PM
 

bettieblu said:

Mike or Shark you ever use Time Machine?  

It works with more than just a file.  You can go back a day, week, month or more and restore a sing email in the Mail App or a contact in Address book.  Gimmicky for an IT person sure.  Super easy, super nice feature for Joe user.

November 24, 2008 2:54 PM
 

Ocean said:

>You're missing the key feature that makes Time Machine such a "special" backup utility, the whirling starscape background! Why, it's the epitome of that "clean, UI design" that Apple fans go on and on about.<

You're a childish troll.

November 24, 2008 3:09 PM
 

shark47 said:

"It works with more than just a file.  You can go back a day, week, month or more and restore a sing email in the Mail App or a contact in Address book.  Gimmicky for an IT person sure.  Super easy, super nice feature for Joe user."

Except for the mail app thing, Shadow copy works with everything that you've mentioned. Again, right click and select Restore Previous Version and you're given a list of all previous versions of the file. Yes, it doesn't have the nice UI, but I don't think business users care about having a fancy UI. If implemented properly by the IT folks, it's a great feature.

November 24, 2008 3:10 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Bettieblu

And the starscape adds what functionality?

November 24, 2008 3:11 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"honestly who takes out their battery for this purpose?"

....and there we have it.  The first sentence is an apology on Apple's behalf.  I was waiting for that.

"Not that I am discounting the problem but I dont know anyone that does that.  What's the impact less than 1% or 1%?"

MANY people do.  Likewise, when your battery lifecycle depletes, you'll also see a depletion in performance levels as your battery recharges, as that is a requirement according to what the response dictates.  Do you honestly dispute the fact that lithium-ion batteries have a lifecycle of 2-3 years?  How many people do you know that don't replace expensive batteries on notebook systems because of the cost?  I know many.

"I never take my battery out of the notebook unless its so hung the power button wont shut it down"

Wow.  They DO have to go back and look at those R&D numbers then.  That has honestly NEVER happened to a laptop I've owned, nor has anyone I've sold one to ever said that it locked up so badly.  Every PC shuts down a computer while holding the power button for 4 seconds.  If it didn't, there'd be something wrong with the power relay through the motherboard.  That setting is controlled by this old thing called the BIOS.  Maybe you've heard of it?

November 24, 2008 3:17 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"You're a childish troll."

"Pot.  Kettle.  Black."

Exactly.

November 24, 2008 3:18 PM
 

Waethorn said:

O/T:

Does anybody else find it funny that Apple doesn't mention "The 'L' Word" in any recent ads?

November 24, 2008 3:24 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

""honestly who takes out their battery for this purpose?"

....and there we have it.  The first sentence is an apology on Apple's behalf."

A great example of my big problem both with Apple and their fans.

If Apple has a design flaw (and shipping a power supply that can't power the computer certainly is one) their response is "people shouldn't do what we didn't anticipate" and the user's response is "sorry that I did something wrong".

The user isn't wrong, Apple is.

The user shouldn't apologize, Apple should.

The user should be, at a minimum, considering it a bug rather than something they did wrong.

November 24, 2008 3:28 PM
 

bettieblu said:

You see Mike this is where you bias comes in.  You cant admit this is exactly what Paul was talking about when Apple makes it easy or whatever.  You have zero objectivity.

To answer you question, the starscape adds nothing just like the running line above the words "Microsoft Corporation" as you wait for Vista to boot adds nothing.

Shark, I have used Shadow copy since it came out for Server 2003.  Its a great tool in a corporate world because it saves administrators lots of time doing piddly restores for users on file servers.  Its a great tool in Vista as well for a consumer on their home PC as well.

Time Machine works with most apps from Apple, like iTune or iPhoto as well the other I listed.  Not only that but you launch it while in the app thats missing data.  So if you in you sent items looking for an email you know you sent, fire up Time Machine and you still in your sent items/mail app.  Go back in time and find the email, click the restore button...done.

How would you do that in Windows?  Restore a .pst/mail file from when you think the email was still there?  Mount the .PST/mail file and hope you were right??

The point is gimmicky or not Joe User likes that kind of stuff because its easy.

November 24, 2008 3:30 PM
 

Ocean said:

>>O/T<<

Troll.

November 24, 2008 3:31 PM
 

shark47 said:

"Bettieblu

And the starscape adds what functionality?"

Especially from a usability standpoint, because that's the context in which the original comment was made. Why is it difficult for a user to right click and select "Restore previous versions"? The additional functionality is more or less irrelevant at this point.

November 24, 2008 3:33 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Waethorn

Correct me if I'm wrong but if the Mac Book power supply doesn't have the amperage to run the laptop at full power without a battery doesn't that also mean it can't run the laptop at full power when charging the battery?

If full processing power draws X amps, then full processing power plus charging current has got to be X+Y amps.

I'd be very curious to see benchmarks on a fully charged unit vs one with no battery vs one with a nearly empty battery that's charging.

November 24, 2008 3:35 PM
 

Ocean said:

>>the starscape adds nothing just like the running line above the words "Microsoft Corporation" as you wait for Vista to boot adds nothing.<<

IOW he was trolling.

November 24, 2008 3:36 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

bettieblu

As shark pointed out, the question was about usability and easy versus simple.

November 24, 2008 3:37 PM
 

bettieblu said:

My T-61 would lock up in its docking station running XP and would not shut down even when holding the button down for 10 seconds.  I even undocked it after 30 seconds same thing.  It was fixed by a BIOS update according to our desktop folks from Lenovo, many users at my company with the same model, bought around the same time had this problem.  The ACPI was broken with the BIOS version I had.  ACPI was probably what you meant by "That setting is controlled".

"MANY people do"  Since you have no proof its total BS and of course I knew you would say that.  To bad we cant start a poll of how many peopole do that.  What a pain in the @$$ to deal with.  Yes all batteries where out over time from re-charging thanks for the obvious there buddy.

So do you remove your battery from your cell phone when near an outlet and plug in your phone so you can make calls???  Many people do it you know....in Canada that is.

November 24, 2008 3:45 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"And the starscape adds what functionality?"

A CLI fanatic would argue that a GUI adds no functionality, only unnecessary overhead, yet I don't hear anyone argue that computing should go back to the days of DOS and green screens.

The "starscape" is eye candy, to be sure, but it ain't harming a thing, and the "backwards in time" analogy, while somewhat gimmicky, is at the very least fun to watch. So sue me if I kind of like it.

November 24, 2008 3:57 PM
 

WebGuy3000 said:

shark47  said:

Why is it difficult for a user to right click and select "Restore previous versions"? The additional functionality is more or less irrelevant at this point.

Shark, here's the thing - what if the file (or email, or contact, etc.) was deleted weeks or months ago?  What do you click on to select "Restore previous versions"?

Also, the nice thing about Time machine is that it's integrated with the index-based spotlight search.  So if I have no idea what the document was called, but know that it had the phrase "grandma's attic" in there somewhere, I search "grandma's attic" in spotlight.  If it doesn't find that string in any file on any local drive, it starts chugging through the time machine backups and returns all the backed up items that contain it.

It's very handy, and to return to the original topic of Paul's post, it passes what call the Uncle Bud test.

November 24, 2008 3:59 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

bettieblu

"Time Machine works with most apps from Apple, like iTune or iPhoto ..."

So what you're saying is that although it's a system tool, it's UI is not consistant between apps with some supporting it and most not. So a user can't assume it will be there unless they learn which apps support it and which don't.

That's not a consistant UI which is what both Apple's a Microsoft's UI guidelines call for and it adds complexity for the user with no benefit of simplicity.

November 24, 2008 4:03 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

lotsa,

I have no problem with you liking eye candy. But by the maxim of "the UI should get out of the way", and the discussion of "easy vs simple", the eye candy is a negative since it is distracting, doesn't add any functionality for the user and doesn't simplify the experience.

November 24, 2008 4:08 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

"The problem with Windows 7 is that Microsoft is copying the Mac, again."

NO! Really?! As they did with Vista, XP... all the way back to Windows 3.1. That's one of the many reasons as to why Microsoft doesn't garner the kind of interest, press and devotion as Apple.

November 24, 2008 4:10 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"the eye candy is a negative since it is distracting, doesn't add any functionality for the user and doesn't simplify the experience."

Have you used Time Machine? The UI that lets me go to a specific date on the right hand side, select a file or folder in the "finder" window and click "restore" is a model of usability. Sorry if we disagree.

November 24, 2008 4:29 PM
 

RunTimeError said:

"the eye candy is a negative since it is distracting, doesn't add any functionality for the user and doesn't simplify the experience."

Then I guess MS should drop the transparency effects from Vista and Win 7. They should also drop Flip 3D as it is a classic example of design over usability. I mean all that GPU hogging eye candy doesn't add any functionality, now does it?

Fact of the matter Mr. Galos: the average schmo loves their eye candy. Both Apple *and* Microsoft know this.

November 24, 2008 4:30 PM
 

ibarskiy said:

Ocean "People buy Office from force of habit and inertia"

What a ridiculous statement to make!  And you know this how?

November 24, 2008 4:31 PM
 

Ocean said:

>>And you know this how?<<

Paul Thurrott and Mike Galos told me.

November 24, 2008 4:38 PM
 

bettieblu said:

Mike actually I dont know what applications are Time Machine compatible and which are not.  Everything I have tried it with has worked so far.  Perhaps all Apple applications do where its applicable and third party apps can if they want to code it for them.

I would imagine if your applications hides the file locations like mail, iCal, iPhoto or whatever then Time Machine support in the application would be good.  If you application opens a find dialog box when you open files say Word, Pages or Photoshop then you would invoke your restore from with in Finder when using Time Machine.

November 24, 2008 4:48 PM
 

bettieblu said:

RunTimeError its OK for the eye candy in Vista when using a 3D gaming video card.  Its XP where its bad since it uses your CPU to render any eye candy or so I have been told:)

November 24, 2008 4:50 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

"Fact of the matter Mr. Galos: the average schmo loves their eye candy. Both Apple *and* Microsoft know this."

Absolutely. But we were talking about easy versus simple not whether they're popular or liked.

And, in some cases eye candy actually does help by clarifying the UI or drawing attention to a key UI piece. As you can tell, I'm not opposed to eye candy in general, but in this discussion we're discussing very specific context.

November 24, 2008 4:53 PM
 

RunTimeError said:

bettieblu: Oh, I know. That's why I said "GPU hogging" and not CPU hogging :)

November 24, 2008 4:54 PM
 

shark47 said:

WebGuy and bettie,

Fair enough. Time Machine probably  has more functionality. To me it looks like they both serve different purposes. Previous versions is used, as the name suggests, to recover previous versions of a file or a folder. From a usability standpoint, I would still argue that right clicking and selecting the version from a list is as easy as it gets. The original comment that Time Machine and Volume Shadow copy were night and day, again, was made in the context of ease of use.  I've seen reasons based on functionality, not on usability why Time Machine is better.

November 24, 2008 5:03 PM
 

techfan said:

@tayme: True. The way Microsoft handles windows management is what I'm accustomed to, but at the same time, I think the MS way is best. It makes more sense.

November 24, 2008 6:01 PM
 

Waethorn said:

@mike:

That assumption would be correct.  The only time the MacBook runs at full power is when the AC power cable is in AND the battery is charged.

What's stupid is that they can't make an AC power cable powerful enough to power the notebook by itself.  The battery is sitting there unused at full power, only receiving a trickle charge from the AC to keep it topped up, while the AC also provides supplemental power.  The majority of the power is coming from the battery.  The likely reason is to kill the battery early so you have to buy another one as a replacement product from Apple.  That's the only plausible reason.  I'm sure the next sealed battery in the MacBook Air will likely be the same.  What did it cost to replace the battery again?

In EVERY PC, the AC power cable charges the battery, and the battery then shuts off.  The battery doesn't discharge at all, because it's shut off and not used by the computer.  The AC power cable is utilized by the computer when the battery is charged.  Likewise, you can take a battery out of a PC notebook and not suffer any performance issues at all.  I also don't suffer any performance issues when charging, nor do I when on batteries.  I can easily change my power profile just by left-clicking on the battery icon in the systray.

Apple is just bilking customers, and for no good reason.  Not only are you killing your battery early, but you're also inflating that hydro bill.

November 24, 2008 6:42 PM
 

shark47 said:

Wae, you're implying that Barack Obama is a hypocrite. :)

November 24, 2008 6:54 PM
 

tayme said:

Not that I approve of Ocean's thread hijacking/trolling, because God knows that he is nothing but a zit faced little kid in the basement on Daddy's MBP...but many of you are using a double standard by letting Waethorn flamebait post on a regular basis without calling him out on the carpet. At least I call BS both ways. I am guessing that this post will once again label me as an Apple apologist or some such thing, but anybody that has been reading Paul's stuff for the last several years will know that to be a false statement. Ya'll need to step back and look at yourselves to see how hypocritical you appear on this site.

--tayme

November 24, 2008 7:33 PM
 

Yawn! said:

@Tayme,

I would never call you an apologist - far from it in my book.

Having said that I have found that I have been agreeing with a lot of what you, Shark and Lotsa have posted over the past weeks about Mike, Ocean and Robertjoe.  

You hit the nail on the head with - Ya'll need to step back and look at yourselves to see how hypocritical you appear on this site.  

Yawn!

Windows 7 (sp2)

November 24, 2008 7:47 PM
 

DRWAM said:

Lotsa, I prefer to make an exact copy of my HD using 'Restore' in Disk Utility. It's even bootable. I have Time Machine running on a third internal drive but never use it. I use 'Restore' to make a backup copy of my boot HD and just allow it to erase each time I update the backup copy. Just a thought dude. Of course thise Pro Tower has 4 drives, two in RAID 0 and two for backups with one partitioned with Vista Ultimate using Bootcamp or VMware.

November 24, 2008 7:53 PM
 

Yawn! said:

Doc,

I think your missing the point of simple.   I work for many in your profession and over half of them would'nt know how to do a restore much less what the right button on the mouse is used for.  Every try to teach a FP doc how to use PAC's just going from 1 view to 2 views?  I won't even mention the nightmare powerchart is for them.  

Time machine allows the user to find the file they are looking for and drag it back on the desk top.  

Yawn!

Windows (sp2)

November 24, 2008 8:04 PM
 

hypernova said:

First time poster.  I just want to add my idea about the taskbar.

To me, I like that mixed shortcut/running app (from what I've read/seen).  But, it is the place that I would add only few applications that practically should be on my startup list, but they're not in there because I don't want to increase my boot up time.  The way they show it in PDC and the way Paul using it right now, to me personally, is the wrong way to use it (you can disagree with me of course).  For me, only IE, Feeddemon(my choice of RSS client), and maybe outlook would be there.  These are the application that I use all the time, and referring to it all the time, no matter I'm doing.  Word, for example, shouldn't be there because while it tends to be used a lot, it is not an application the I have to know all the time where it is.  Unlike what Paul said, the situation "Shortcut (not running), Shortcut (not running), Shortcut (running), ..." will not happen to me.  The reason I pin it on the taskbar because it will be all running all the time that my machine is on.  Applications like Word, Foobar, Notepad, etc. will still be at there place, pinned on start menu or I'll just leave it on MRU list.

That said, I can see the problem.  I don't use quick launch at all, and I also pay attention to every installation process.  Still, four or five programs still manage to add itself to my quick launch list (I didn't see it because I turn if off).  Same thing will happen to Windows 7 I think, but much worse if the user don't know how to take it off of the taskbar.  Every applications will try to pinned itself on the taskbar, and I can see that a lot of user will find himself having a taskbar filled will pinned shortcuts to applications that he don't really want it to be there.  I mean, I can't tell why foxit reader try to add itself to quick launch by default.  How many time do you open a reader and then open the file?  It make much more sense to double click the file and done.

BTW, sorry for my poor English. :)

November 24, 2008 8:15 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"Lotsa, I prefer to make an exact copy of my HD using 'Restore' in Disk Utility. It's even bootable."

I'm right there with you...until you need a version of a file you had a week ago, and the backup was written yesterday, and the file is wrong or corrupt.

November 24, 2008 8:21 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"Time machine allows the user to find the file they are looking for and drag it back on the desk top. "

Or click the "restore" button and put it back where it was in the first place automatically.

November 24, 2008 8:24 PM
 

shark47 said:

"Ya'll need to step back and look at yourselves to see how hypocritical you appear on this site."

Shame on you guys.  :-)

Seriously, though, I would agree that the link was not called for. But it's usually best to leave Wae and lotsa to fight it out amongst themselves. They do a good job of policing each other, usually.

November 24, 2008 8:47 PM
 

panache1023 said:

I haven't used Time Machine, but....when you are "travelling back in time" to find an old file, can't you use the "preview" feature...so, if you're looking for an old text file, can't you actually view the files to see if you found the right one?  If you are looking for a video file, can't you view it, without actually having to restore it?  Can the Window Shadow Copy do this?  I don't know as I haven't used either, so I'm curious...

Speaking of the red X closing the window in Mac OS X and not shutting the app...I also find that kind of annoying...in some ways it's OK, but kind of confusing...let's say I am using FireFox and close hit the X so the windows goes away.  Next time I click FireFox to browse the web, it nearly instantly "starts" because it never actually stopped running..know what I mean?  I guess that's why it does that?  Not a bad idea in theory....not something I'm fond of though...

Speaking of which....ever use those Windows Apps, where when you click the "Close" button, it just hides the window, and you are forced to right click in the system tray and choose exit?  Most apps I've seen that do that give you the choice of "Clicking the X closes" or "Clicking the X hides".....funny, but some apps I choose for it to close, and others I choose for it to hide.....I guess it's really all what you get used to.

November 24, 2008 9:18 PM
 

bettieblu said:

"Likewise, you can take a battery out of a PC notebook and not suffer any performance issues at all"

You sure about that?

forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php

forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php

November 24, 2008 10:05 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

Mircosoft to release its own smartphone to compete with the iPhone.

www.appleinsider.com/.../microsoft_developing_nvidia_based_mobile_phone_report.html

This pretty much sums up Microsoft's way of doing things perfectly:

"What do you get if you take an iPhone, remove the clean UI, user friendliness, nice industrial design, battery life, cachet, functional OS, and in general everything else that makes it worthwhile?," writes the Inquirer. "The new Microsoft phone, powered by NVIDIA."

November 24, 2008 10:51 PM
 

Xtreem0 said:

is it possible ever too stay on topic?

November 24, 2008 11:25 PM
 

Mum said:

Mike,

"And the starscape adds what functionality?"

It serves an obvious purpose. It completely separates the Time Machine UI from Finder UI so they don't get mixed up. OS X is full of eye candy, but it all seems to serve a purpose, much unlike in Vista.

In fact, the unnecessary eye candy in Vista reminds me of a thankfully long-forgotten art form of computer demos, which circulated on c-cassettes among the tech nerds and Commodore 64 users. Their only purpose was to display elaborate graphics and play music in the background that seemed fancier than the computer was supposed to be able to handle.

In Vista's case, of course, the computers often weren't (and aren't) able to handle the eye candy that is Aero, but I digress.

November 25, 2008 1:23 AM
 

links for 2008-11-25 | The Computer Vet Weblog said:

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November 25, 2008 2:30 AM
 

robertsjoe said:

What's going on with this post? No "Ahahahaha" professionalism with this one?

November 25, 2008 3:08 AM
 

GabeR said:

In Mac OS (from 1.0 to current) the window is not the application, it is the document. Imagine an MDI Windows application (like AutoCAD), where the application window is constantly maximized and is transparent, so you can see documents from other applications in addition to the current application's documents. So when you close a window with the red circle, you just close the document. When you minimize the window with the yellow circle, you just minimize the document, not the application, so it goes to the right side of the dock and not on the application icon.

In my opinion, the Windows way is more complicated, especially with MDI applications, where you have windows for the applications containing other windows for the documents...

November 25, 2008 3:19 AM
 

Mum said:

"In my opinion, the Windows way is more complicated"

Exactly. I never got why apps should close in different ways other than "quit". Should Photoshop also quit when you close the last document?

November 25, 2008 3:46 AM
 

robertsjoe said:

The best notebooks in the world are also the most environmentally friendly.

www.apple.com/.../green-notebooks

November 25, 2008 3:49 AM
 

shark47 said:

When MS itself was inconsistent with its UI principles, it was hard to get 3rd party developers to be consistent. Things seem to be changing, though. Chaitanya Sareen has a nice article on the Windows 7 blog:

blogs.msdn.com/.../default.aspx

"All the major web browsers offer tabs and a method of managing these tabs. One could argue tab toolbars are really like taskbars since they facilitate switching. These TDI (Tabbed Document Interface) and MDI (Multiple Document Interface) programs have always resorted to creating their own internal window management systems as the Windows taskbar was not optimized to help their scenarios. Some programs like Excel did custom work to surface their child windows on the taskbar, but this approach was somewhat of a hack.

Since the new taskbar already groups individual windows of a program under a single button, we can now offer a standard way for programs that have child windows to expose them. Again, the taskbar offers a single, consistent place to access real windows as well as child windows. These custom window switchers also behave as regular windows on the taskbar with rich thumbnails and even Aero Peek."

November 25, 2008 7:27 AM
 

Dipsh t Admin said:

bettie, check out the motherboard on those T61's.  They had a bad batch of motherboards that would cause a lot of odd behavior.  I've been working with them, and they have been a pain.  However, after changing the motherboard out, all of the strange stuff stopped occurring.  I'd check that out.

robertsjoe, I'd check the history books.  While Apple has found Jesus in regards to being environmentally friendly, they have a history that is not so good.  Check out the EPEAT ratings.  Since January, Lenovo had a Gold EPEAT rating, Apple got it in October.  And remember that they were very late to the party with recycling.

www.epeat.net/SearchResults.aspx

November 25, 2008 7:43 AM
 

Brad's Blog said:

Paul Thurrott wrote a great article basically comparing the user experience--and development mentality

November 25, 2008 12:36 PM
 

A great Google article, the difference between ‘easy’ and ’simple,’ and why this is a problem for Windows 7 - SuperSite Blog | WinSe7en said:

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Windows 7 Jump Lists & UI Discoverability & “Bolting On” touch capabilities « JTango said:

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Hi Sun Microsystems! Intoruce into Java by.. » The PC Info said:

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A plea to the Windows team: Don’t make Windows 7 too Mac-like | All about Microsoft | ZDNet.com said:

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December 3, 2008 10:46 AM
 

Taranfx: Technology Blog » Blog Archive » A plea to the Windows team: Don???t make Windows 7 too Mac-like said:

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google desktop problems | Digg hot tags said:

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December 13, 2008 4:58 AM
 

The Stone Blog said:

So, I’ve kept my mouth shut, waiting to reserve judgment until I’ve had a chance to use the ‘Superbar

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Windows 7 ??? Defending the ???Superbar??? from the Tech Press | CHARGED's Digital Lifestyle at Work or Play said:

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