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He says that the beta was supposed to have been released at the end of 2008.  

Not much difference there, certainly not enough for him to make a big deal about it.

>>Delaying the public beta program -- which was generally accepted to be slated for the mid-December 2008 timeframe -- is a smart move.<<

Pauls friend Mary DID say mid-December.  I guess Randell just missed the updated info.

blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft

Up until the day Sinofsky updated everyone, mid-December was the understood date:

blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft

Ocean

Paul's right. You're wrong. Period.

Nobody said December except bloggers reporting rumors and guesses. And any of them saying so after the PDC were just being either ignorant or irresponsible.

What you call "the day Sinofsky updated everyone" was the day Windows 7 was announced at the PDC.

That was the FIRST date given. Period.

It wasn't updating anyone.

The best part of Randall Kennedy's delusional "article" is that he not only thinks Microsoft delayed the beta (even though the date has stayed exactly the same) but he actually claims that Microsoft delayed the beta because he personally scared them into delaying it.

And he gets paid for that?

No, let me clarify, he gets paid for that by the actual paper he writes for? I mean, I'd understand if one of their competitors was paying him to destroy what little credibilty they had left, but, seriously? They Pay Him?

Mary Jo Foley's article (Your link) is reporting on an unnamed source.  So it's a rumor.  MS has never gone on record saying that the Public Beta will be in December.

Frankly, I can't see the significance of any claims of delays as MS hasn't even announced a release date yet.

The Mary December date I think is when the Beta was going to be ready not when it was going to be avalible. Plus it was all rumors....

Go gettem tiger!!!!!!!

Paul is right, Ocean is right, Ocean is Wrong, Marry Jo is the Queen of Windows, Mike is never right????????????  Really does anyone care about when a Beta of a SP2 for Vista will be made available??  Here is a question, how much room will be consumed in the landfills of the world for the media this beta will reside on when its tossed for beta 3 or RC1 2-3 months later???  

Honestly Paul its funny when I see you say stuff like "I wrote about this before anyone or I said if first" blah...blah...blah.  Do you get little trophies for when your right?  How about when your wrong, do they take some away.  It is like Achievements on the 360?  Do you callouses on your hand from patting yourself on the back:):)

I think we should have a Blogger's Arena event, like Gladiators.  I would pay for that.  Do you think you could take Randall with a tiger in the Arena at the same time??:)

File this under "Nothing to write about today"

Two points.

1.  L  ots of tech news gets distributed via bloggers today. Paul claims to have broken a lot of news on his blog:  most importantly, that Apple was leaving the powerPC platform and moving to Intel.

2.  Mary Foley is a Mainstream Journalist...who just happens to blog.

Can't have it both ways.  

In the absence of other reporting, Mary's reporting was...as Randall said the "generally accepted" timeframe.  Lots of websites carried it.

Lindy

Paul was right

Ocean was wrong

Mary Jo guessed wrong (both articles were about rumors and published before the announcment)

I was right (deal with it)

>>I was right<<

LOL

I'm sure his crap  be quoted by the many of the vacuous insecure iBoi's in the various blogs and sites that Google News will aggregate this under a major headline.

It's happened before. The click through he's generated should make this obvious but whatever.

So this guy actually take credit for delaying a beta. Give me a break, the guy is a delusional idiot from what I've read. I guess he had issue's with the pre-beta wow the pre-beta isn't perfect. He probably got it off Pirate Bay, why would Microsoft give this jerk a copy of anything?

Mike here is the beauty of it, you replied to my stupid post about this stupid subject.

Your right because your a legend in your own mind.

Ahh, the anonymous sources...

"Really does anyone care about when a Beta of a SP2 for Vista will be made available??"

No. But I do care when the beta of Windows 7 is made available. If you don't, that's entirely your problem.

"Here is a question, how much room will be consumed in the landfills of the world for the media this beta will reside on when its tossed for beta 3 or RC1 2-3 months later??? "

Are you all right?

Uh, guys, at this point the difference between "now" and "early 2009" is about 5 weeks. This is just not that big a controversy.

A better question is when they'll ship it.

@ Lindy

Nothing to write about today, huh?  A lot of you trolls seem to spend quite a bit of time writing on these blogs on topics that you have no interest in or that don't matter according to you.  Must be that gun that's pointed to your head that's making you read these and waste space with your oh-so insightful comments.  Honestly Lindy, in what way has your comment added any value whatsoever to this post?

"Lindy

Paul was right

Ocean was wrong

Mary Jo guessed wrong (both articles were about rumors and published before the announcment)

I was right (deal with it)

"

OK I think it's pathological now...

>>Uh, guys, at this point the difference between "now" and "early 2009" is about 5 weeks. This is just not that big a controversy.<<

Thank you.

(and as stated in the first post)

Perfectly fine Sharky and yes I do care about landfills over flowing with crap more than I do Windows 7 Beta 1.  Even more than what day Windows 7 Beta 1 will be released, and even more than which IT blogger got the date right.  Call me crazy.

@Sandman X, I would use your teeth to get your panties out of a knot.  I read this blog because I am killing time and find Pauls, Waethorn, and Mike very entertaining to read.  I love to get a rise out of Mike at least once a week, check...done.

The better question is what has this blog post added or contributed to your life?  It has provided me some humor at least and yes your were part of that humor.

Sandman,

It is tough, but you just have to not acknowledge Lindy and Ocean. They are idiots trying to bait everyone into some garbage off topic discussion.

Uh, guys, at this point the difference between "now" and "early 2009" is about 5 weeks. This is just not that big a controversy.

Is this using the Chinese calendar or the Gregorian calendar?  It will matter on who we declare the winner and the looser.

Oh My God, I feel dumber for reading his article.  God, this guy is an idiot.  HE and HIS scathing report was responsible for the "delay" of the beta.  ha ha .  What a moron.

This should be a blog post where no one fights with each other, but just takes turn calling Kennedy a new dirty word.

Hold it Delmont, I never claimed to have any topic at all in this thread:)

Um....when is Microsoft's fiscal year-end?

I guess I misread that landfill statement of yours, lindy. My apologies. :)

My apologies. :)  Excepted fine sir!!!

@Lindy,

Where did I say this post contributed anything to my life?

Apparently you get humor out of it.  That tells me 1 of 2 things:

1.  You're still at a pre-pubescent age in which trolling blogs is funny to you...hey, that's just part of being a kid I guess.

2.  You're an adult who finds it funny to troll a blog...in which case that's extremely sad.  You're only furthering stereotypes that us tech geeks (which we are if we're partaking in keeping up on this stuff) are both socially inept and akward.

So which is it?  I'm guessing number 1, because I can't say I personally know adults in real life that act this way.

@kalewallace - Can we use made up dirty words? Otherwise, it'll show up as as all asterisks.

--tayme

@Lindy - That should be "Accepted"...That's one large [SIC] hammer against your skull.

--tayme

kalewallace

I admit, I had an advantage in reading Randall Kennedy's piece (feel free to speculate on piece of what) in that I read it before I had coffee and luckily most of my brain cells weren't awake yet to be exposed.

I'm thinking maybe all of us who read it should file a class action lawsuit agaist Infoworld for not putting up a warning that reading Randall Kennedy can lead to brain damage.

Maybe the madness hamsters ate all his brain?

@mike

People sue for less nowadays.

Most negative news articles about Windows or anything Microsoft are usually followed with a lot of "Microsoft Sucks" comments and the like.  The comments that people left on that page actually call him out on his stupidity, which is a rarity to me at least.

I have read a piece of this individual a few weeks back, one big rant, in which he complains that Windows 7 (pre beta !) broke Vmware's network stack and was unable to run deamon tools. A classic piece of journalism, I'm shocked that he actually gets a salary for his work, as it is clearly lacking in knowledge.

He doens't deserve any mention.

Unfortunately this sort of blogger frenzy happens all the time.  Some blogger, either with what s/he thinks is good reason or out of whole cloth ("gee, if I say this I get lots of page view, and I'm below quota this month") says something about company Xs plans (or company A, or M, or G, or Y...).  Another blogger sees it, and thinks "OK, that kinda makes sense, and I'm below page view quota this month:  I'll copy it, embellished a little".  And on and on until it is something "everyone knows."

But it still has nothing concrete to do with company X's plans.  Then company X announces something related but different, and suddenly they have "changed their plans" or "delayed Y" or "not delivered the $800 MacBook" or ...

This case is unusual in that the blogger frenzy died down nicely when Microsoft made their announcement, and then suddenly after about a month's delay R Kennedy noticed.  Mary Jo was very careful in what she said originally here.  And the real frenzy never developed, but still the "this year" meme was somewhat out there.  Until the real announcement (or a month later in Kennedy's case).

I tend to trust Paul, Mary Jo Foley, and Ed Bott because they tend to be careful to distinguish between fact, almost fact, something from "a source" (the kid behind the lunch counter?), and something from the oracle (lower case) in the state park high atop Tiger Mountain.

When does the National Enquirer start its Technology section?

I usually don't read info world, now I know why......  

@Sandy #3 getting you to reply to my posts.

"how much room will be consumed in the landfills of the world for the media this beta will reside on when its tossed for beta 3 or RC1 2-3 months later???"

Probably very little, since the dawn of electronic distribution.

"I'm thinking maybe all of us who read it should file a class action lawsuit agaist Infoworld"

We should at least sue Infoworld for their incessant, wasteful mailings of CRN magazine and the like.  What a bunch of garbage.  It goes straight from my mail slot, right into my shredder.  Infoworld is associated with eWeek too, so Kennedy is likely buddies with Wilcox.

"Windows 7 (pre beta !) ....was unable to run deamon tools"

OH NOES!  Windows 7 actually prevents spyware-bundled apps from running on your computer!  CALAMITY!

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Lindy: "@Sandy #3 getting you to reply to my posts."

Congrats...I guess.  Want a cookie?

I guess your question to Paul applies to yourself:

"Do you get little trophies for when your right?  How about when your wrong, do they take some away.  It is like Achievements on the 360?  Do you callouses on your hand from patting yourself on the back:):)"

"Probably very little, since the dawn of electronic distribution"  yep if you going to install over the top of vista, provided this beta will allow that at this point.  My question is how do you know when your done since they look the same:)

Or if you have a big enough Flash drive, say 8gig you could boot from it and install it.  Or setup a WDS server and install from it?

Or burn a DVD like most.

Yes I want Pauls trophy!!!!  I will take the cookie as well.

"yep if you going to install over the top of vista, provided this beta will allow that at this point"

I'm looking forward to built-in VHD support myself.  I wonder how you'd defragment such a thing though....

For those of us who actually paid attention, Windows 7 beta comes out in 2009. That wasn't a surprise to anyone who really stays informed. Whats truely sad is the lack of professional moderation on this board to keep the "iCabalist" on a very short leash. Ocean and Lindy just keep adding more credibility to the "iCabal" theory.

There are other sites dedicated to entertainment and comedy websites. To confuse the Supersite which deals with computers with a site to find humor, begs the question of proper education. Paul's humor is kinda dry and I prefer my comedy to come from professionals. You know Comedy Central, YouTube, Funny Or Die, Jib Jab, etc.

Thankfully, I am ready for the beta with a second hard drive ready to roll on my main machine. I look foward to it.

Paul, there is a difference of a free flow of information and the complete misinformation of facts. Allowing the icabalist to run the asylum isn't right, especially when they are constantly proven wrong.

Peace.

Wow and IT article that may or may not have represented the facts.  Microsoft is equally guilty of spreading copious amounts of b****it about their products.  (ie. www.edbrill.com/.../microsoft-thinks-two-hours-a-week-is-an-improvement-for-time-spent-on-upgrades)

What goes around comes around...

Craig

>>Ocean and Lindy just keep adding more credibility to the "iCabal" theory.<<

I'm a very happy XP and Windows Mobile user who is awaiting the release of Windows 7.  I've never owned an Apple PC, though I am a very happy iTunes and iPod user (like Paul).

It is an interesting study to see how the peanut gallery of anti-everything-Microsoft nutters infesting this site have completely cast the likes of Mike and Waethorn who have actual historic perspective and day-to-day expertise handling MSFT stuff are painted as being zealots.

The few people who could really add valuable info to the discussion are being marginalized and vilified while feeding the trolls like robertsjoe and Ocean. At what point will this site be moderated to filter out the obvious BS propaganda from the Apple trolls?

@Waethorn - "Windows 7 actually prevents spyware-bundled apps from running on your computer! "

That is why I keep an old version of Daemon Tools handy. Pre-spyware...I can't recall the version number right now and I am not at home, but it runs well on Vista and I like the interface that it provides for mounting ISO images. Is there another tool available for doing that? I'd be interested in looking at it. Hopefully 7 will have that built into the OS (maybe Vista does, and I have just missed it).

--tayme

"Is there another tool available for doing that?"

Virtual CloneDrive (from Slysoft)

It doesn't work on Vista x64 AFAIK.  They didn't make the driver 64-bit.  It works fine on 32-bit Vista or XP though.  

There is a Certified for Windows Vista program called Virtual CD, but it costs money.  It's an excellent program though, and has more features than you can shake a stick at.

CloneCD is by far the easiest program for burning ISO's to disc though.  Four buttons for the main interface.  Can't get much simpler than that.  It also costs money though, but it works well with Vista, since Vista doesn't need any bloated CD/DVD burning suites since data, music, and video discs are handled by the OS already - data discs by the shell, music by WMP, and video/photo discs by Movie Maker and DVD Maker.

@RaaJ

"The few people who could really add valuable info to the discussion are being marginalized and vilified while feeding the trolls like robertsjoe and Ocean. At what point will this site be moderated to filter out the obvious BS propaganda from the Apple trolls?"

I ask myself that every time I come here. I'm dumbstruck at how Paul seems to not really care about these clowns.

OMG OMG OMG!

Virtual CloneDrive is now supported on Vista x64!

"Virtual CloneDrive 5.4.0.6: 2008 07 31

- New: Added support for 64-bit OS, e.g. Windows Vista 64"   -- changelog

Cool beans.

Grab that one tayme.  It's up to date.

@Raaj - Keep in mind though, that mikegalos and Waethorn are as anti-anything but MSFT as the others are anti-MSFT. When I comment about something that shines any light of negativity on MSFT, I am labeled as one of the anti-MSFT crowd...and it should be obvious to anybody that has been around Paul's stuff for the last several years that I am not anti-MSFT or anti-AAPL. mikegalos comes accross as arrogant in 90% of what he posts and Waethorn seems to get a little childish in many of his posts. That is what I am against...on both sides. Good, respectful discussion; without degrading people because of thier logical opinions on a subject is what used to occur around Paul's sites. I'd like to see it get back to that. A little fun and humor mixed in is fine...but the extremist views here are as bad as those we all see on Fox News and MSNBC.

--tayme

@Waethorn - Thanks...I will look into those.

And, that is the type of discussion/advice that I was talking about in my last post.

--tayme

>>Apple trolls<<

Not me.  See my 4:33 PM comment.

Here is a good article on the sort of specs Windows 7 will require:

www.techradar.com/.../windows-7-netbook-system-specs-explained-487829

Someone denigrated Mary Foley above.  If you're interested in what kind of access she has within MS, this article will interest you:

www.markwilson.co.uk/.../mary-jo-foley-talks-to-microsofties-about-their-companys-future.htm

"Someone denigrated Mary Foley above. "

Ocean, that was you that was denegrating her by saying she backed up Randall C. Kennedy.

"Someone denigrated Mary Foley above. "

No. No one did. Stop spreading malicious lies.

"If you're interested in what kind of access she has within MS, this article will interest you:"

No one doubts it, but the fact is, the "rumored" date wasn't announced officially by Microsoft.  It was based on an anonymous source.

Mike, lets not...OK?

>>No. No one did.<<

...

<Nobody said December except bloggers reporting rumors and guesses.>

Mary is not some fly by night blogger as I mentioned before.  She's a very mainstream journalist with access and contacts.

To lower her to the level of a Randall C. Kennedy is indeed denigrating her.

Seriously, Ocean, nobody else brought her up except to counter your incorrect statements that she'd said the same thing as Randall C. Kennedy. Nothing else even close to denigrating her. So I have no idea what you're requesting that we "not".

And you're mistaken again.  

I didn't say she said the same thing; my point was that the date was out there (and that Randall probably got it from her, not the other way around!).

I never install CD/DVD burning software on Windows Vista aside from a few tools.  Windows Vista already gives you the essentials, so bloated disc burning software like Nero or Roxio are just unnecessary for most people, unless they like that kind of stuff.

I use CloneCD for burning duplicates and ISO's, and now, Virtual CloneDrive for mounting ISO's without burning them.  That's it.  Everything else (music, data, backups, & video/photos) can be done with the built-in features and applications.

I don't include CD/DVD burning software on new computers that I build either.  I see a lot of name-brand systems that ship with stripped down version of Roxio or Sonic software, as well as muvee crap.  It's just unnecessary.  I honestly don't know any user that admitted to using any of that garbage either.  I show them Movie Maker HD and DVD Maker, and wow them.  It makes for a good demo to customers looking for a new computer too, many of which didn't know they could do so much, so easily in Windows Vista.

I'd like to get one of those Flip Mino HD's just to try one out.  I wonder if it'll support Windows Live Movie Maker when it ships....

"Mary is not some fly by night blogger "

And nobody said either that Mary Jo was "fly by night".

And nobody said blogger equated with "fly by night" except you.

You're objecting to your own biases.

"Mary is not some fly by night blogger as I mentioned before.  She's a very mainstream journalist with access and contacts."

You added the "fly by night" part for dramatic effect, right? Nice. :)

Either way, even "mainstream journalists" get it wrong from time to time. It's hard to tell what's going on when your sources are anonymous.

What did you mean when you said

"Nobody said December except bloggers"

and

"Mary Jo guessed wrong"

You were casting doubts on her journalistic chops.  Spin it away if you wish; I know how I perceived it.  I've seen you in action the last several months.  :)

Virtual clone CD is the package that also works on Windows 7 x64, and as far as I know it's the only cd/dvd mounter that works. Of course no copy right protection part (which are provided by daemon or alcohol).

You can now also mount VHD files in disk manager, so that they appear in explorer, providing the VHD being mounted isn't being used by an active virtual machine. However no booting from a VHD file seems to be supported.

Check out Bryant Zadegan's take over at AeroXperience:

http://www.aeroxp.org/

What did you mean when you said

"Nobody said December except bloggers"

and

"Mary Jo guessed wrong"

How dare you call Mary Jo a fly by night Nigerian scammer, Mike?

Now, go on, spin it away if you wish; I know how I perceived it.

"What did you mean when you said

"Nobody said December except bloggers"

and

"Mary Jo guessed wrong""

On the first, that neither Microsoft nor anybody else official had never said it so it couldn't be an "update"

On the second, exactly what I said, that Mary Jo guessed wrong. Her comments that you quoted as "Pauls friend Mary DID say mid-December" were (unlike the article you were validating based on using her as a person who agreed with Kennedy) only guesses based on rumor and were all published prior to the announcement.

Riiight.  So no chance that someone within MS told her they were aiming for December?

Don't get dizzy.

agl82

Good article. Thanks for the pointer.

@agl82

Bryant has a really good take on it.  It's nice to see others taking a stand against such ludicrousness.

Shark

I wouldn't call anyone seriously blogging for a living a Nigerian Scammer. That's so 2006. Really, by now you'd know I'd call them a Burkinabe Scammer. (someone from  Burkina-Faso)

Now, about Randall C. Kennedy, I'd have some other phrases...

@ Waethorn:

"I never install CD/DVD burning software on Windows Vista aside from a few tools.  Windows Vista already gives you the essentials, so bloated disc burning software like Nero or Roxio are just unnecessary for most people, unless they like that kind of stuff."

Just about the only things I use third party apps for these days are for burning gapless, disc at once audio CDs (WMP still puts an annoying 2 seccond gap between tracks) and for burning ISOs. The rest, as you say, is handled admirably by the OS.

(I do use other specialist tools at work, such as CD analysis, quality checking etc, but that's kind of a different aspect altogether)

Here's a story I think relevant to people like Randall Kennedy. This morning while driving to work, I had literally 3 close-encounters due to people being half-asleep and not watching the road, or just breaking the rules. Goddamn idiots. Anyway, I woke at 7AM, it's 7:40 and I've already got plenty of reasons to go postal.

I thought to myself: "If I allow this crap to annoy me, it's going to ruin my whole day. Just assume that stupid people get their comeuppance eventually and forget about it".

And that's what Randal Kennedy is. He's the wanker who crosses the median strip, even though it's blatantly unsafe. All you have to do is believe that somewhere out there is the 10-tonne truck in his blindspot that will collide with him and explode and char his journalistic body.

If none of that makes sense, refer to the part where I was on the road a half hour after waking up.

I love it when two people think they're right. Especially on the internet; they'll never meet each other in real life to duke it out, so neither will back down.

Classic.

"Riiight.  So no chance that someone within MS told her they were aiming for December?"

It's indeed possible and even probable.

But... but, if they did delay it, it was before Kennedy published the article attacking Windows 7. See the link Paul points to? That was during the PDC.

So, if a decision was made to delay it, it was done before the PDC. Mary Jo published the second article on Oct 27th. I'm quite sure by that time the timelines had already been decided upon.

Conclusion: Randall Kennedy is an idiot.

>>Conclusion: Randall Kennedy is an idiot.<<

...something we all agree on.

>>I love it when two people think they're right. Especially on the internet; they'll never meet each other in real life to duke it out, so neither will back down.<<

Paul and Randell?

JUST MAKE SURE THAT THE DATE AND LINK FOR THE PUBLIC BETA GETS POSTED WHEN IT'S READY!

I've got a $400 Vista laptop with a volume waiting.

DRWAM...a second HD...or a volume on the current???

Given that it's Microsoft and Vista 2, there's plenty of scope for it all to be delayed. Stay tuned....

"no booting from a VHD file seems to be supported."

I wonder if there are any mounting tools in Windows PE....

You might be able to script something with WDS or as an unattended install.

I've been asking for this functionality ever since Windows Vista debuted with the WIM imaging format.  What Microsoft needs to do is bridge the gap between WIM's and VHD's.  This is a stop-gap method.

WIM's are used to back up hard disk volumes for deployment.  VHD's are used as a virtual replacement for a physical hard disk for virtual machines.  Making them interoperable would be an IT admin's dream.

Consider this:  You can create a WIM from the Windows Vista imaging tools.  That WIM is a back up of a hard disk installation of Windows, or other data stored on a drive.  Now if you could take that WIM and mount it directly into a virtual machine, or directly onto a physical disk for a "physical" installation of Windows, and back and forth again, well....you can see the possibilities.

This is what I want to see happen from Microsoft.

The cheapo laptop has a single 160GB HD that came partitioned into two volumes. One is labeled C drive and the other is labeled Data.

I tend to build a PC,buy a Mac, then buy a laptop. I'm back to the PC build turn, but may wait a while for Seven. However, it looks as if I will not need to worry about hardware compatibility for Seven [unlilke Vista Ready vs Capable]. I am curious about the Quad Phenom due soon, an I have a lot of patience, so I can wait.

Paul, why are you wasting time on this jerk?

"Paul, why are you wasting time on this jerk?"

Exactly! It is funny, though.

It's also fun to hear about FOM. Never knew such a secret society existed. I wonder what 'holy grail' they're tasked with protecting.

"I am curious about the Quad Phenom due soon, an I have a lot of patience, so I can wait."

Phenom X4's?  They're already out.  Look at the Core i7 instead though.  The Intel DX58SO is an expensive motherboard (it's required for the Core i7), but the Core i7 920 processor smokes the older Core 2 Extremes, and the cost of it is <$400 vs. $1000+ for an Extreme chip.

Plus, you can put 2 video cards on the DX58SO.  The launch versions will only handle CrossfireX for dual ATI cards.  That's not so bad, considering that ATI cards are cheap, and the 4000 series supports DirectX10.1.  Later versions of Intel's board might support NVIDIA SLi, which is a bit better if you favour game compatibility.  Some of the other vendors (ASUS, MSI, eVGA, etc.) offer boards with SLi instead of CrossfireX if you're looking now though.  I would stick with eVGA, since they're the biggest NVIDIA partner.

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