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How to fix Windows Mobile

This is an interesting if misguided article and, coincidentally, I met with the Windows Mobile folks just this week, so it’s good timing as well:

In recent months, Microsoft's mobile strategy has hit a rough patch. In the third quarter, iPhone maker Apple shipped more smartphones than all 56 device makers that make Windows Mobile phones combined, according to research firm Canalys. As a result, Windows Mobile slid from its position as the world's second-most popular mobile operating system a year ago to the No. 4 spot, behind Nokia's Symbian, Apple's OS X, and Research In Motion's BlackBerry.

Windows Mobile's share may drop to 11% this year from 12% in 2007, says Chris Ambrosio, an executive director for wireless at research firm Strategy Analytics. "On the important issues, they are chasing the market," Ambrosio says. "And they've got to chase much faster" to ensure continued carrier and handset makers' support, he adds.

To keep partners and developers on board, analysts say Microsoft needs to adapt Windows Mobile software for use with touch interface. However, a major update may not hit the market until 2010.

Yep. This is bad. Microsoft is working on a number of things before that major update, Windows Mobile 7. These include a new version of the WM version of IE, called Internet Explorer 6, and a new Windows Mobile platform called Zune Mobile that includes Zune functionality. But it’s not happening quickly enough.

Microsoft also should also follow Google's and Apple's lead in the area of wireless cloud-computing services.

Um. I assume that’s a joke. Apple does not “lead” in cloud computing services, and if anything, Microsoft’s presence in this market gives it a breadth and depth that is unavailable anywhere else, including Google. Windows Mobile has many problems. This is not one of them.

What Microsoft does need is a single, integrated online store for Windows Mobile applications and services. This is arguably the biggest innovation of the iPhone, and not its trendy and most-likely over-hyped touch interface.

In December, Microsoft also announced it's working with Blockbuster to deliver movies to cell phones. Eventually the service will let consumers start watching a movie on one device—say, a TV—and continue watching it on a cell phone while on the go. Microsoft is also beefing up mobile services through its acquisitions last year of Musiwave, which provides music services for cell phones, and TellMe, offering voice-based mobile search services.

One step Microsoft should avoid, analysts say, is building its own branded phone, as has been rumored. Such a phone would damage the behemoth's existing relationships with handset makers.

Well. They are going to do that, sorry. I’d argue that Microsoft’s relationships with handset makers is, in fact, its biggest weakness in the mobile market. In fact, in looking over this article, I see lots of interesting information about Windows Mobile, but precious little in the way of good advice. Yes, Microsoft needs an online store. Duh. But no, they already get cloud computing, so that’s a silly non-starter. Microsoft needs to take control of its future in the smart phone market and it can’t do that unless it makes its own devices or its partner make serious, Apple-like concessions. Guess which one is more likely?

As I noted previously, I did meet with Windows Mobile this week. They’re good people, smart people, and they seem to understand the issues. They also seem to value the business market more than the consumer market, but that might only be because that’s what they pretty much offer at this point. I will be writing more formally about Windows Mobile by the end of the year, but I wanted to at least mention one thing I found vaguely alarming. When asked about the success of the iPhone and how that impacts Windows Mobile, I was told that the iPhone “validated” Microsoft’s approach. That’s some weird combination of revisionism, wishful thinking and, perhaps, delusion.

I think Microsoft needs to be much more aggressive in this market. And that’s pretty much the only advice I can really give.

Comments

 

Ocean said:

Line of the week, right here:

>>That’s some weird combination of revisionism, wishful thinking and, perhaps, delusion.<<

Paul said:

>>I think Microsoft needs to be much more aggressive in this market.<<

Would that include making their own devices?

December 12, 2008 9:13 AM
 

Ocean said:

Paul, they define what they mean by cloud computing in the next sentence.  You're just being obtuse by not taking note of that.  

>>Microsoft also should also follow Google's and Apple's lead in the area of wireless cloud-computing services. The move would shift energy-sapping computing power away from users' cell phones and onto the powerful servers maintained by Microsoft. Rivals are already offering such services. When you purchase an iPhone application from the Apple App Store, the payment is processed on Apple's servers rather than on an individual device. When you ask your G1 to find the nearest sushi joint, it's Google's servers and not your phone that churn out the map. In both cases, your phone doesn't do much legwork. Most of the processing is done on remote servers "in a cloud."<<

I don't think much of the point they are making, but the context *is* there for the understanding.

December 12, 2008 9:19 AM
 

mdsharpe said:

I love Windows Mobile. And yet, the o2 XDA Serra aka HTC Touch Pro is probably the most unusable device I've ever bought.

It has errors like "device.exe has crashed" all the time, and is frustratingly unresponsive. On top of that, I am unable to sign into Messenger on the device, though I suspect that may be related to using Messenger beta on the desktop. Why is there not an easy way to update Windows Live for Windows Mobile?

Aside from Windows Mobile's problems, I think the main issue is the poor job the networks and HTC do of bundling up tonnes of junk such as TouchFLO 3D which slow the device to a crawl.

That and the fact that the only way to get a decent ROM upgrade is through enthusiast community XDA-Developers.

Essentially, the Windows Mobile experience is paying a premium cost for a flaky device and then having no meaningful support and/or software updates.

December 12, 2008 9:20 AM
 

Delmont said:

I'm a Windows guy....but to me...the iPhone wins because of the built in iPod and thus it's connectivity with iTunes. Microsoft just flat out doesn't have anything to compete. Microsoft is late to the game. So, to me Microsoft must change the strategy of the game and the rules how to win.

Also like Paul side: Microsoft is focused on the business side. Apple's iPhone is focused on the consumer side. But the sides appear to be merging...so....Microsoft needs to catch up and fast.  I think as history as shown Microsoft does best when it's behind in the game. Competition is good. And for Mike Galos: to extrapolate out: greed is good, greed works.

December 12, 2008 9:30 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"When asked about the success of the iPhone and how that impacts Windows Mobile, I was told that the iPhone “validated” Microsoft’s approach."

Sounds like "mikegalos" or, as I like to call it, "Wae-speak".

Of course, since Microsoft only expends a minuscule amount of time thinking about Apple (per "mikegalos"), they probably didn't have time to formulate an intelligent response, so they spewed the first thing that came to mind.

"I see lots of interesting information about Windows Mobile, but precious little in the way of good advice."

Here's mine. Follow the Zune path: Give up and start over. Declare Windows Mobile functionally and creatively bankrupt, and come back with something amazing, not another "me too" product that no one wants when there are better alternatives. Microsoft has come -this- close with the Zune; there's no reason to think they couldn't hit a home run with a reworked (and rebranded) Windows Mobile*.

Windows Mobile might have been acceptable when there wasn't any compelling alternative, but the iPhone changed everything.

* Well, actually, there is.It'd be nice to see Microsoft change the rules again, but I don't think big revolutionary change is possible for them at this point. I'd like to be wrong (you know, rising tides and all that), but I'm probably not.

December 12, 2008 10:05 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"Would that include making their own devices?"

Yes. They need to throw their partners under the bus and get busy controlling their own destiny.

December 12, 2008 10:06 AM
 

What ‘Zune Mobile’ is and isn’t | All about Microsoft | ZDNet.com said:

Pingback from  What &#8216;Zune Mobile&#8217; is and isn&#8217;t | All about Microsoft | ZDNet.com

December 12, 2008 10:18 AM
 

johnpapola said:

I believe that Apple's "lead" in cloud computing is a reference to iTunes and the App Store, both of which are arguably cloud computing/hybrid internet platforms and the former is of course a huge leader in its market.

I see no reason why Microsoft can't make a phone.  It's becoming increasingly clear that this next wave of computing is better served by Apple's integrated hardware/software model.  People expect appliance-like performance from their devices and the Apple model is the best way to ensure that.  So it makes perfect sense for Microsoft to follow that in phones just as they did with Xbox and Zune, both of which are very good (minus the xbox hardware reliability of course).

I welcome the competition, because it'll be good for everyone.  

December 12, 2008 10:18 AM
 

RobertC said:

I think when they refer to the iPhone validating their approach, they mean that the iPhone's developer focus via the app store in order to create a vibrant software ecosystem.

The success of Windows on the desktop and on mobile devices has a lot to do with its vast compatibility with tens of thousands of software titles and hardware devices.

The iPhone only started to take off when Apple finally realised that a) the first iteration was much too expensive and b) a closed shop limits the potential success of the device. Rather than being a niche, the iPhone is now mainstream.

Of course, that's notwithstanding the other issues that I have with the iPhone's touch-only interface.

December 12, 2008 10:20 AM
 

Ocean said:

>>The iPhone only started to take off when Apple finally realised that a) the first iteration was much too expensive <<\

I think they planned the price drop all along.  

December 12, 2008 10:29 AM
 

RobertC said:

John, a major part of the iPhone's appeal is that it is made by Apple, whom everyone knows make wildly popular MP3 devices. That brand cachet is hard to replicate.

That said, there's no reason why Microsoft's current business model cannot continue to work. The only reason why Windows Mobile is perceived to be trailing is that its current iteration was not designed to be primarily finger-operated. The reality is that the Windows Mobile ecosystem is very vibrant with tonnes of software available for the OS - the only difference is that not all of it is available in a central, easy-to-access location like the iPhone App Store. As Paul said, something akin to the App Store would go a long way to improve the utility of Windows Mobile as well as encourage developers to keep writing software for the platform.

Thus, with a decent code renovation (especially focussed on the browsing experience), a snazzier, touch-centric UI and some classy hardware, Windows Mobile has the opportunity to be much more successful if Microsoft engenders better relationships with its partners.

December 12, 2008 10:35 AM
 

RobertC said:

<I think they planned the price drop all along.>

Rubbish. There's only one reason why a company would dramatically slash the price of their products within a short time of release: they're not selling.

You can drink all the Steve Jobs kool-aid that you want, but it won't change cold hard business facts.

December 12, 2008 10:37 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"There's only one reason why a company would dramatically slash the price of their products within a short time of release: they're not selling."

Really? Then explain similar price drops for the Motorola RAZR, which was selling like crazy at a nearly $600 price point, but within a year was practically available in Cracker Jack boxes as a free prize.

The rules are different for cellular handhelds; such price drops are de rigueur in that milieu.

It has nothing to do with "Steve Jobs kool-aid", it has to do with facts. Given your avatar, I understand that your grasp of such things may not be completely firm.

December 12, 2008 10:53 AM
 

weedmonk said:

"I believe that Apple's "lead" in cloud computing is a reference to iTunes and the App Store, both of which are arguably cloud computing/hybrid internet platforms and the former is of course a huge leader in its market."

Wow. I'm sure that what they though as well when they *unleased* MobileMe earlier this year. I'm still laughing that you cite iTunes. roflmao

December 12, 2008 10:54 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"As Paul said, something akin to the App Store would go a long way to improve the utility of Windows Mobile as well as encourage developers to keep writing software for the platform."

It's been pointed out by WinJihadists here before that Handango has been offering thousands of programs for Windows Mobile and Blackberry phones for years. Obviously, applications aren't the issue here. Heck, there are tons of programs available for my Centro. Guess what? Purchasing and installing them is a pain. It's NOTHING like the iPhone experience.

Again...the iPhone changed the rules. It's about ease of use--from purchasing to usability, to price, to the quality of the programs. I don't think MS gets it. Yet.

December 12, 2008 10:59 AM
 

tayme said:

@RobertC - "a snazzier, touch-centric UI and some classy hardware"

Check out the Samsung Omnia. It is a WinMo 6.1 Pro touch device that, in my opinion, is superior to the iPhone. In the US, it is available only on Verizon, which to some people is a bad thing...but remember, the iPhone is only available on AT&T's smaller, less reliable 3G network.

I'll be waiting to be labled an MS fanboi by some of the regulars here...but I think that is obviously untrue if you have been reading Paul's stuff long.

--tayme

December 12, 2008 10:59 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"The only reason why Windows Mobile is perceived to be trailing is that its current iteration was not designed to be primarily finger-operated."

"PERCEIVED" to be trailing? You want us to look at "cold hard business facts" and you can't read sales numbers? Can you spot a trendline?

The market has spoken, and Windows Mobile has certainly been given "the finger".

December 12, 2008 11:01 AM
 

Ocean said:

Common sense says that they didn't expect to sell 10 million phones at $499.  Perhaps they did do it sooner than expected, but the plan all along was to drop the price of entry as they did with the iPod.

December 12, 2008 11:04 AM
 

RobertC said:

lotsamystuff, the iPhone sold terribly in its first three months. Only about 3 million were sold in its first six months on the market - and it took 74 days to sell the first million which is a clear indicator that price was too high. Hence, prices slashed. If this was a planned thing all along, then why would Apple bother "apologising" to early-adopters with a $100 voucher? Again, too much kool-aid for you.

By the way, I agree that buying and downloading apps is clunky on Windows Mobile. iPhone is way ahead there. To be honest, it wouldn't take much for Microsoft to do something similar. While Microsoft tends to shy away from all-encompassing centrally planned services, an App store really does make a lot of sense and gets developers much more exposure than they otherwise would via more conventional marketing efforts. They could just call it Windows Mobile Marketplace.

December 12, 2008 11:12 AM
 

Dipsh t Admin said:

""PERCEIVED" to be trailing?"

Well, up until the last sales figures were released just very recently, it was indeed a perception, but wasn't a reality yet.

I also feel that the partners have caught up in many ways.  If you look at some older offerings, they were all pretty bulky devices and nothing interesting.  As tayme mentioned the Samsung Omnia, Xperia, HTC Touch, Touch Pro and Touch HD (with a full 800x600 resolution) have created some excitement where there was none.

Considering that Windows Mobile has been primarily for use by business users, I think that they have been hemorrhaging more to BlackBerry than to Apple.  Hence, that is what I think they mean by their validation point, where they say we are for business, they are for the consumers.  However, MS is moving way too slow in this market, and needs some major improvements to come down the pike.  

Based on NDA requirements, while Paul can't say what new stuff may be coming out, the fact that he posted this seems to indicate that nothing great is coming out., or it certainly isn't coming out fast enough.

December 12, 2008 11:15 AM
 

RobertC said:

Hi Tayme,

I'm aware of the Samsung omnia and I've also taken a look at the Sony Xperia X1. Both devices are great and I personally prefer their design over the shiny-scratchtastic design of the iPhone.

It is interesting that you mention the AT&T network, because in Australia where I'm from, Telstra (the dominant incumbent telco) operates the largest and fastest 3G network in the world using the same 850mhz 3G spectrum as AT&T. The network covers more than 99% of the population, or over 2 million square kilometres, and can reach speeds of 14.4mbps.

So network reliability is really not an issue for me.

December 12, 2008 11:18 AM
 

chuckb84 said:

Guys, if you think the point of the iPhone is that it is a "phone", then you're not paying attention. Yes, it is incidentally also a phone, but it is a mobile platform that accessing cloud computing better than anything else. And, as has already been pointed out in many other venues, the killer app for the iPhone is a meta-app, the iTunes store, an app that sells apps. It is the apps sold by the meta-app that connect to the cloud, in many different ways.

Microsoft has nothing like this, nor does anyone else.

Microsoft's "partners" have failed in the phone business even more abjectly than their mp3 player partners failed in the music player business. Verizon, Nokia, et al, are in the "phone" business and don't get that the game has changed.

Cars were not made by horse and buggy companies that adapted; portable computing devices are not being made, in any useful sense, by phone companies.

Microsoft definitely should abandon there erstwhile partners, and proceed, a la Zune, to make their own device. Not a "phone", but a real competitor to the Apple device.

This is not a bad post from Paul. He is wrong on one point,

"What Microsoft does need is a single, integrated online store for Windows Mobile applications and services. This is arguably the biggest innovation of the iPhone, and not its trendy and most-likely over-hyped touch interface."

The touch interface is not over-hyped; it's the future in handheld devices, because there is nothing else as versatile in a device too small for a real keyboard and built in pointing device.

December 12, 2008 11:18 AM
 

shark47 said:

Actually, Paul, what MS can do is cut down the number of hardware partners to more manageable numbers and work more closely with them. In fact, there's a lot the company can do without abandoning its business model. Of course, it does call for greater collaboration between OEMs and MS.

December 12, 2008 11:18 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

www.brighthand.com/default.asp

'Verizon has already cut the price of its version of the Samsung Omnia, even though it just launched this touchscreen-oriented Windows Mobile smartphone last week.

"Samsung Omnia for VerizonThe Omnia debuted on this carrier's website on Nov. 26 for $250 after a $70 mail-in rebate with a new two-year customer agreement. Just a few days later, it is now selling for $200 under those same conditions.

"No reason for this change was given, but as the Omnia is often compared to the iPhone, Verizon decided that this model should sell for the same price as Apple's smartphone."

Huh. So Apple's not the only one that drops prices shortly after introduction.

And the reviews? Less than stellar (Engadget's review was priceless: "we found that TouchWiz let us spend our average day without really seeing a native Windows Mobile screen, and that's a good -- nay, a great thing").

Then there's this: http://tinyurl.com/6aqnwe

"Bottom line: After 45 minutes poking and getting frustrated by it, my verdict is to avoid it like the pest. As a consumer, my first impression is clearly one of horror and frustration. I would rather get an HTC. Or a Sony. Or a Nokia."

Or this one: http://tinyurl.com/6565m3

"I don't think the current version of Windows Mobile does the device justice. The Omnia is simply the best WinMo competitor to the Apple iPhone on the market I've tried but it isn't enough.  A year from now I hope we'll have a better Windows Mobile OS out the door that a screen only device like the Omnia can really take advantage of. "

December 12, 2008 11:21 AM
 

RobertC said:

lotsamystuff, the iPhone is targeted at consumers despite its touted compatibility with enterprise services. Yes, it has sold well but I would confidently bet that the iPhone is performing poorly in the business market because of its incessant need to be tied to the buggy and useless iTunes which requires a 70mb download just for an incremental patch.

December 12, 2008 11:21 AM
 

shark47 said:

I think the problem with all these devices like HTC Touch, Omnia, etc. is that Windows Mobile 6.1 wasn't designed to be a touch input OS, so even though some things work, others don't, leading to an inconsistent user experience. MS should've come up with a *new* consumer centric touch OS for these devices. I don't believe that the platform is doomed, by the way.  

December 12, 2008 11:22 AM
 

Incremental Blogger » Blog Archive » Is Windows Mobile deadending itself? said:

Pingback from  Incremental Blogger  &raquo; Blog Archive   &raquo; Is Windows Mobile deadending itself?

December 12, 2008 11:23 AM
 

RobertC said:

Dipsh, I agree. It's easy to say that iPhone has trumped Windows Mobile, when the reality is that WM has always been a business-centric OS. iPhone has dramatically more consumer appeal than most WM devices.

But I think we can all agree that Microsoft really needs to get its ass into gear on this front. It has the required talent and know-how to make something great.

December 12, 2008 11:25 AM
 

shark47 said:

RobertC, you bring up good points. Microsoft needs a consumer focused phone. I think "Zune Mobile" might be the way to go.

Note: When they attack your political views, rather than your views on the topic, you know you have a point, right? :-)

December 12, 2008 11:31 AM
 

RobertC said:

shark47, too true. All hail free markets and deregulation. :)

December 12, 2008 11:35 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"All hail free markets and deregulation. :) "

Yeah, that's working well.

Of course, the bastardized Republican definition of "free markets" is nothing like the Libertarian definition. Thousand-pages-long agreements do not equal "free trade".

December 12, 2008 11:46 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

"Of course, the bastardized Republican definition of "free markets" is nothing like the Libertarian definition."

Of course, any version of "Libertarian" that endorses the existance of Corporations is nothing like actual libertarianism.

December 12, 2008 11:56 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

"All hail free markets and deregulation."

Yeah, the US steel industry's doing so much better now than it was in the regulation heavy 1960s.

Oh, wait. Maybe you mean the US auto industry. Nah. That's not it. The US electronics manufacturing industry? No. Maybe the US aircraft industry? The airlines? One word... Plastics? Nah. Banking? Finance? Agriculture? Meat packing? Health care?

OK. I give up. Where has the deregulation fever of the last 28 years helped the US?

December 12, 2008 12:09 PM
 

RobertC said:

Mike, explain to me how constant bail-outs of the US Auto industry as well as heavy farm subsidies have actually helped the companies involved on the international market.

I cannot believe the hide of the US Auto companies demanding tens of billions of taxpayer dollars to subsidise their failed business plans, which includes an overpaid union workforce, outdated technology and gas-guzzling behemoths. Yeah, a whole great deal big government has achieved.

Save me the claptrap mike.,

December 12, 2008 12:32 PM
 

chipwinter said:

I'm pleased to see that Microsoft seems to be bringing their Zune mp3 player strategy (i.e., build it ourselves, rather than with partners) to their mobile product.

Imagine how the market would change if they were as successful in the phone market as the Zune is in the music player market.

December 12, 2008 12:33 PM
 

Delmont said:

Chuck,

Cars were not made by horse and buggy companies that converted? Ever heard of Billy Durant....he was a guy here in the Flint area...he formed General Motors oh 100 years ago!  Google his name and read up before saying things.

December 12, 2008 12:39 PM
 

tayme said:

@"lotsamystuff" - Where in Keith Combs' Blahg did you see the quote below. I have searched and searched. I will assume that you posted the wrong link with that quote. I have been reading Keith's stuff for quite a while and trust him. The biggest thing that turned him off about it was that to get the $200 price point, you have to sign a 2 year deal with Verizon. Isn't that the same as the iPhone/AT&T deal.

Just last week, I was able to do a 45 minute side by side comparison of an iPhone vs Omnia. In my opinion, the Omnia won hands down...from responsiveness to features to call clarity. Since I am considering a touch screen smart phone, I think that I will be getting an Omnia soon.

"Bottom line: After 45 minutes poking and getting frustrated by it, my verdict is to avoid it like the pest. As a consumer, my first impression is clearly one of horror and frustration. I would rather get an HTC. Or a Sony. Or a Nokia."

--tayme

December 12, 2008 12:39 PM
 

Delmont said:

RobertC:   Good point!  And very good logo!

December 12, 2008 12:41 PM
 

shark47 said:

Since this has already gone OT, Mike, do you believe that a Democratic govt would be better for MS?

December 12, 2008 12:45 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

RobertC

Tell us first how the US Auto Industry is collapsing due to their being over regulated?

I don't recall the US Government requiring them to make gas-guzzling behemoths or use outdated technology or have clueless executives whose only answer to any question for decades has been "offshoring". (Yeah, that worked)

On the other hand, Toyota and Honda and Daimler-Benz all seem to have been able to do quite well manufacturing in the US with the same "overregulation"

So I guess you're saying that Japan, Korea and Germany are deregulated, "libertarian" utopias?

More likely, they saw the US as a source of cheap labor and government handouts and decided that "offshoring" TO the US was the way to save money.

December 12, 2008 12:47 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"Where has the deregulation fever of the last 28 years helped the US?"

Privatization certainly didn't help Canadian health care (which is certainly much better than US health care mind you).  It's still regulated, mind you, but Bob Rae totally f*ed it up.  Now he's supposedly a Liberal, and was (up until recently) vying for the Liberal leadership.  Nobody likes him though.

December 12, 2008 12:47 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

shark

I think a non-corrupt government from either party would help Microsoft. Preferably one that doesn't think science and technology are evil.

Interestingly, the companies that started in the PC industry (like Microsoft and Apple) tend to have leaders who are big supporters of the Democrats. The companies that started in the "centralized computing" world like SUN and Oracle tend to be big supporters of the Republicans.

December 12, 2008 12:51 PM
 

Dipsh t Admin said:

mike, Robert wasn't talking about regulation.  He was talking about bailouts.  And you just proved that he is right by saying that Toyota and Honda have made great progress here without the help of the government, and probably more of the government actually being against them.  However, in either case, the US auto industry only has itself to blame for its problems.

December 12, 2008 1:07 PM
 

tayme said:

In my opinion, labor unions had a time and a place in this country and did a tremendous job cleaning up workplaces during that period. Today, they are just as corrupt and unfair to the workers and the consumers as management of any company or as big government is. They have caused prices of many goods to skyrocket by insisting on unreasonable wages and benefits for workers. I have several uncles that worked union shops and have nothing positive to say about the unions at all.

Enough politics...The weekend is upon us. Enjoy!

--tayme

December 12, 2008 1:23 PM
 

tayme said:

@"lotsamystuff" - Sorry, it was me that was off on the links and quotes. Unfortunately, I am not able to view the middle link for some reason. But, I have probably already seen it anyway. I have done a ton of research on the Omnia nad other touch screen phones as I get ready to make the jump.

--tayme

December 12, 2008 1:29 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Dipsh

The Japanese, Korean and German auto makers in the south have gotten more government money than Detroit's asking for. Take a look at their various tax exemptions and "enterprise funding" breaks, etc.

December 12, 2008 1:33 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Dipsh

You might want to pay attention to the fact that it's a Senator from Alabama (where the biggest industry is foreign auto plants) leading the opposition to the Detroit bailout. It's not about philosophy of government, it's about lobbying for the big foreign competitors to Detroit that are in his state.

December 12, 2008 1:51 PM
 

tayme said:

@mikegalos - Can you provide factual evidence of that? I would venture a guess that most of those exemptions and breaks come from local and state governments rather than the federal government, and an equal or greater amount has been offered to and taken by the "Big 3".

--tayme

December 12, 2008 1:56 PM
 

chuckb84 said:

Delmont

"Cars were not made by horse and buggy companies that converted? Ever heard of Billy Durant....he was a guy here in the Flint area...he formed General Motors oh 100 years ago!  Google his name and read up before saying things."

Surely. Here's what wikipedia says "William was a high school dropout, yet had become a leading manufacturer of horse-drawn vehicles by 1890, based in Flint, Michigan. When approached to become General Manager of Buick in 1904, he made a similar success and was soon president of this horseless-vehicle company."

So he moved from one company (horse and buggy), to GM. This is not the same as a horse and buggy company converting to produce cars, which was what I said did NOT happen.

Individuals moved across industries, but companies did not convert. Perhaps it was a bad analogy; I don't know the whole history of the founding of the auto industry.

However, I am quite clear that Verizon/ATT/Nokia/et al are still thinking "phone" in an era when they should be thinking "mobile computing device that connects to the cloud". The disconnect is profound.

December 12, 2008 2:02 PM
 

shark47 said:

"I think a non-corrupt government from either party would help Microsoft. Preferably one that doesn't think science and technology are evil."

Fair enough.

I think an institution like EC stifles innovation. Regulation is good as it helps the consumer by promoting competition, but too much regulation does more harm than good.

December 12, 2008 2:18 PM
 

Delmont said:

Chuck,

OK, whatever....I know much more about the history and bio of Durant...here is more: www.mlive.com/.../billy_durant_was_leader_among.html

www.fee.org/.../article.asp

What you stated is not the details by any means.....

But back on topic: I agree. I wouldn't consider any phone really expect the iPhone next. Again, I'm a full Microsoft person...but there is nothing to compete with the iPod/iPhone/iTunes and the app store.

Microsoft hires very smart people. If Apple can do it, Microsoft should easily be able to.

December 12, 2008 2:31 PM
 

Ocean said:

This thread is very OT.

You guys are hypocrites.

December 12, 2008 2:33 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"The Japanese, Korean and German auto makers in the south have gotten more government money than Detroit's asking for. Take a look at their various tax exemptions and "enterprise funding" breaks, etc."

"You might want to pay attention to the fact that it's a Senator from Alabama (where the biggest industry is foreign auto plants) leading the opposition to the Detroit bailout. It's not about philosophy of government, it's about lobbying for the big foreign competitors to Detroit that are in his state."

For once "mikegalos" is absolutely correct.

December 12, 2008 2:34 PM
 

animositysomina said:

Wae, "good" Canadian health care is a legend perpetuated by commies and socialists. Try to wait for several months in line like I did (I'm Canadian BTW) and then speak for "good" Canadian healthcare. It's all looking bright from the south side of the border, sure. Not so on the other side, mind you.

December 12, 2008 2:46 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"Wae, "good" Canadian health care is a legend ... try to wait for several months in line like I did (I'm Canadian BTW) and then speak for "good" Canadian healthcare. It's all looking bright from the south side of the border, sure. Not so on the other side, mind you."

A-freaking-men.

December 12, 2008 2:57 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"You guys are hypocrites."

And you're sexist.  ;-)

December 12, 2008 2:57 PM
 

Lindy said:

Canadian health care (which is certainly much better than US health care mind you)."

I work with a Canadian contractor and he says the exact opposite.  His sister fractured her ankle and could not get into the "government provided" Dr. Office/hospital right away, so she had to pay a private doctor to help her.  He regularly says we Americans dont know how bad it can be.  He is dreading having to go back after his year is up.

Not that I think the US health care system is great, it works, it just cost a lot.

December 12, 2008 3:00 PM
 

Lindy said:

@mikegalos - Can you provide factual evidence of that?"

I would wager the answer to that is a big fat NO!

December 12, 2008 3:01 PM
 

beaker said:

What does "over-hyped touch interface" mean? How can it be over-hyped when everyone out there is copying it? Look at all of the new phones - they are copying the design of the iPhone. You said it yourself on a recent Windows Weekly.

I don't know what over-hyped means when everyone is trying to catch up to it.

December 12, 2008 3:26 PM
 

animositysomina said:

Lindy, usually legend perpetuators like Wae stop telling fairy tales about Canadian healthcare the moment they got here.

I saw one such American myself, my former manager. It was pretty funny to hear her confessions about how she went to a local doctor here and was told to wait in line for some test for a few months. She was like "WHAT???" :)))

Yeah, those delusions die hard. Wae won't stop telling commie fairy tales until he starts living in Canada.

Good for him being American and all that. I'll move south the moment I get an opprtunity (couldn't do it for family reasons, having a baby and stuff)

December 12, 2008 3:30 PM
 

shark47 said:

"Wae won't stop telling commie fairy tales until he starts living in Canada."

You do know that Wae lives in Canada and Lindy, in the US, right? :-)

December 12, 2008 3:38 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

IE6 for mobile? You'd think that something so hated and awful as Internet Explorer 6 (for the desktop) is something you'd avoid naming on your mobile OS. IE6 is only slightly less of a tarnished brand than Vista.

December 12, 2008 3:40 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

A story about someone being trapped in a Windows world.

www.boingboing.net/.../epilogue-austin-scho.html

There is no other word for using Windows than being trapped. You're paying the Windows tax for life.

December 12, 2008 3:41 PM
 

animositysomina said:

robertsjoe, maybe YOU pay this tax, but it's YOUR personal problem, not others'

shark47, then Wae should live in US for some time and learn the difference between socialist "free" healthcare and the real one.

December 12, 2008 3:50 PM
 

shark47 said:

Getting back on topic, lotsa, if you ignore all the snark and personal attacks, does make a good point. Apple did change the game by making a consumer focused smartphone, which caught most other companies unawares. It's been over 2 years since the iPhone was announced. Microsoft, instead of trying to sell a business focused OS to consumers, could've spent this time working on building a consumer centric OS from the scratch. If the Zune is anything to go by, I think MS would've done a great job of this. The company's current efforts are nothing more than "putting lipstick on a pig".

December 12, 2008 3:59 PM
 

shark47 said:

"You guys are hypocrites."

"And you're sexist.  ;-)"

I think "guys" here was gender neutral.

December 12, 2008 4:06 PM
 

Bink.nu said:

Microsoft officials (finally) denied this week that the company will be rolling out a Zune phone at the

December 12, 2008 4:29 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"@mikegalos - Can you provide factual evidence of that?"

I would wager the answer to that is a big fat NO!"

Ten f*scking seconds of research:

http://tinyurl.com/56tqmn

December 12, 2008 4:31 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

Great iPod web ad.

http://games.yahoo.com/

Something else for Zune and Windows Mobile to copy.

December 12, 2008 4:33 PM
 

tayme said:

@"lotsamystuff" - "Ten f*scking seconds of research:"

You do realize that the link that you posted did absolutely nothing to prove mikegalos' point, right? In fact, it came closer to proving mine....that the dollars were from state and local governments. Not only that, but $3.6 Billion is nowhere near the $14 Billion that the big 3 are now asking for...another point that mikegalos was wrong on. Thanks!

--tayme

December 12, 2008 5:11 PM
 

tayme said:

@robertsjoe - No school for a couple of days...you gotta be loving that!!!

--tayme

December 12, 2008 5:14 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"the dollars were from state and local governments. Not only that, but $3.6 Billion is nowhere near the $14 Billion"

• The government cheese tastes the same from different pantries

• That number is an estimate, and doesn't include suppliers

• Those numbers represent grants and giveaways, not loans

• 1/3 of the amount the Big 3 are asking for is substantial.

Bottom line: Government is and has been subsidizing this industry. Period.

December 12, 2008 5:23 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

While everybody can, I'm sure, come up with anecdotes to justify why their position must be right, the facts are that the US health care system is worse than Canada's.

There are two numbers that are typically used to measure health care; Average Lifespan and Infant Mortality.

Average Lifespan has the advantage of showing the effect of a whole life of medical factors but has the downside of also showing the health costs of poverty and war. Still, it's a good measure even with those factors when you're comparing countries inside similar groups (say, Western Industrials with each other or Sub-Saharan African countries with each other)

So where is the US? This bastion of "Our healthcare may be expensive but it's the best in the world"?

Macau is at number 1 at 84.33 years

Canada is at number 8 at 81.16 years

The USA is at number 46 at 78.14 years

OK. There are admitted flaws in using life expectancy. (I admitted them myself) Let's look at infant mortality. This is considered the default number for measuring health care since most societies do their best to provide good health care to pregnant women and newborn infants no matter what.

The best place to be born is Singapore with only 2.30 deaths per live birth

Canada is #23 with 5.08 deaths per live birth which is over twice Singapore's infant mortality rate

And the US is at #32 with 6.30 deaths per live birth

So, there are the actual facts. You can now go back to meaningless anecdotal discussions about your Aunt having to wait two years for bunion surgery.

(Facts from the US Central Intellegence Agency's World Fact Book - 2008 edition)

December 12, 2008 5:25 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

lotsa

Another big factor is that those numbers weren't inflation adjusted.

December 12, 2008 5:26 PM
 

tayme said:

@"lotsamystuff" - I agree with your points totally. But mikegalos loves to post "facts" without backing them up...and this is a perfect example of that. What you posted does show that various government entities at the state and local levels have been subsidizing the auto industry, it fails to show that "The Japanese, Korean and German auto makers in the south have gotten more government money than Detroit's asking for." Remember, the FEDERAL government already bailed out Chrysler once back in 1979 or so. You, mikegalos, and I all know that and the current situation is different than offering incentives to entice a company to locate in and employ citizens of an area. I don't like either idea. In the mean time, I'll keep driving my Honda...because I know that it will run for at least another 100,000 miles.

--tayme

December 12, 2008 5:34 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Oh, and if anybody want an example of a company that successfully transition from making horse drawn buggys to making cars, I'd suggest you look at Studebaker.

December 12, 2008 5:36 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

tayme

Government funds are fungible. Alabama takes in more Federal funds than they pay so Federal money subsidizes Alabama State government spending without even the benefit of Federal oversight.

December 12, 2008 5:39 PM
 

tayme said:

@mikegalos - You might actually earn some respect if you would stick to the facts and not mix in your pompous comments lie "You can now go back to meaningless anecdotal discussions about your Aunt having to wait two years for bunion surgery." That is the kind of comment that has earned you a$$hole status.

--tayme

December 12, 2008 5:40 PM
 

tayme said:

@mikegalos - The sky is blue.

--tayme

December 12, 2008 5:42 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

My. Some people get downright testy when facts show up to hurt their justifications.

December 12, 2008 5:50 PM
 

Master3 said:

This whole thread has become a cluster freak.

Seriously it's almost as bad as the comment section on YouTube videos.

December 12, 2008 5:52 PM
 

shark47 said:

So, what exactly are the alternatives to a bailout? Let GM and probably Ford and Chrysler fail? Let millions of people lose jobs? Let the economy go further into recession? I wouldn't support this at any other time --bailouts like this promote mediocrity-- but if a few billion dollars might prevent the economic situation from deteriorating further, why not? Of course, there's a likelihood of this amount not being enough, in which case, things will only get worse.

December 12, 2008 5:56 PM
 

tayme said:

@mikegalos - We would also need to adjust for inflation of the earlier bailout of Chrysler and then factor in and adjust for inflation the various subsidies made to dealerships, part manufacturers, labor unions, and various other entities. In the end, I still would guess that that, along with the ~$30 Billion that the Big 3 asked for a few weeks ago and probably even the $14 Billion that they are now asking for is more than what has been paid to the US based "foreign" auto manufacturers. They, like most of the rest of North America and the EU have been living on excess for years, and it looks like its time for adjustment.

--tayme

December 12, 2008 5:59 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

shark

The current plan isn't meant to be enough. It's a short-term bridge loan meant to keep GM and Chrysler afloat until a long-term plan can be negotiated under the new Administration and new Congress. (Ford has stated they don't need the short term bridge loan) That's why it has only a little more oversight than the unsupervised gift to Wall Street that's paying for staff bonuses rather than rebuilding the housing market.

Now, the real question is why a $14B loan is seen as horrible by the same people who had no problems with a $700B giveaway.

December 12, 2008 6:03 PM
 

shark47 said:

"so, there are the actual facts. You can now go back to meaningless anecdotal discussions about your Aunt having to wait two years for bunion surgery."

Those facts are meaningless.I mean, I could use this data to prove my hypothesis that Canadians are in general healthier than Americans or even eat better, maybe. Maybe there are fewer gun related deaths in Canada. There are so many factors that affect life expectancy. I don't think this is a good measure for comparing the health care systems of US and Canada.

December 12, 2008 6:04 PM
 

tayme said:

@mikegalos - "Some people get downright testy when facts show up to hurt their justifications."

Sorry, but you are wrong. I am able to separate my discussion of the Big 3 bailout and your pompous comment made to another poster regarding another subject. They are unrelated...you are still a pompous a$$hole. You'll notice that I said that you should stick to facts...which you did in your post regarding the healthcare of the US vs Canada.

You have yet to provide a fact, other than saying that numbers need to be adjusted for inflation, for your statement "The Japanese, Korean and German auto makers in the south have gotten more government money than Detroit's asking for." I agree with that fact...we do need to adjust for inflation, including the $1.5 Billion that bailed out Chrysler in 1979-1980 and the moneys given by various state and local entities to entice the auto manufacturers to open a factory, dealership, etc. in their area.

--tayme

December 12, 2008 6:05 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Tayme

What they're asking for (and you seem to be ignoring) is a loan. That means the cost is the interest on the money. The subsidies for the foreign manufacturers were in the form of grants and exemptions.

Or, to put it simply, you're saying that loaning somebody $200 for six months with interest is more of a gift than giving them $100 cash.

December 12, 2008 6:06 PM
 

tayme said:

@mikegalos - "Now, the real question is why a $14B loan is seen as horrible by the same people who had no problems with a $700B giveaway."

I am one person that had a problem with both.

--tayme

December 12, 2008 6:08 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

shark

Feel free to present less "meaningless" facts. You won't find any but feel free to look.

These are the measures used worldwide to guage quality of health and healthcare in a society and were taken from a reputable and non-partisan source. Feel free to use WHO numbers if you like - they're basically the same.

December 12, 2008 6:09 PM
 

tayme said:

@mikegalos - "What they're asking for (and you seem to be ignoring) is a loan."

I am fully aware that it is a loan. But, I am against making bad loans, and I feel this would be a bad loan. What industry is next...hell, they should all line up and ask for these loans. The money would be better spent on improving the dismal state of the education system in this country, or providing loans to people that actually need them...not to companies that in my opinion have no intentions of changing past actions that got them into the state they are currently in.

"you're saying that loaning somebody $200 for six months with interest is more of a gift than giving them $100 cash."

As you would most likely say...do not put words in my mouth. I did not say this at any given point. Please retract.

--tayme

December 12, 2008 6:15 PM
 

shark47 said:

"I am one person that had a problem with both"

What were the alternatives, though? Let everything collapse? Whose fault was it? People blamed greed on the Wall Street. but Wall Street has always been and will continue to be greedy. It's like asking a car salesman to try to minimize his commission from sales. CEOs answer to shareholders. I think Dipsh posted a 9 year old article about how FNM's shareholders were after the company to increase profits. GM and Ford were actually trying hard to turn things around. It's not  entirely their fault that this happened.

December 12, 2008 6:16 PM
 

tayme said:

@mikegalos - Those "meaningless anecdotal discussions about your Aunt..." mean more to most people than any statistics that you can provide. It is called emotion and real world experience...both things that you appear to have a lack of.

--tayme

December 12, 2008 6:18 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

tayme

I'm not sure why we should include the $1.5B loan guarantee to Chrysler in 1979 as an expense in the same way as the grants, free infrastructure improvements and tax exemptions given to the Japanese and German automakers.

Care to explain how our providing a loan guarantee 30 years ago cost us money? Or how it still does?

A loan guarantee doesn't actually cost anything if the company doesn't default on their loans. And Chrysler didn't.

It's the same as if you have bad credit and asked me to cosign a loan with you. As long as you pay back the loan properly, it didn't cost me anything to guarantee your loan.

December 12, 2008 6:21 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

tayme

No need to retract. You're citing the principal of the loan as the money given to the companies rather than the interest on the loans.

Now, feel free to tell us again how the interest on $14B costs the taxpayers so much more than the grant money given to Toyota or Daimler.

December 12, 2008 6:24 PM
 

tayme said:

@shark47 - There may be no alternatives other than a collapse or a major adjustment. You do realize that most low to middle income North Americans and EU countries live much better than the low to middle income folks in the rest of the world, right? I think that the time has come for an awakening...we live in great excess. That is what needs adjusted. I got on an elevator today and it vocally announced every floor that it stopped on...I saw a van today on the interstate that had, not 1...but 2 ceiling mounted DVD players, each showing a differnt video. Do we really need that? The Big 3 and the labor unions have been leading an existence very similar to that...excessive.

--tayme

December 12, 2008 6:25 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

tayme

Yes, when the facts say you're wrong, bring out a sob story anecdote and you can fool some people into ignoring the facts. Now who was it who kept insisting on facts? Oh, yeah, it was you.

December 12, 2008 6:25 PM
 

tayme said:

@mikegalos - "grants, free infrastructure improvements and tax exemptions given to the Japanese and German automakers."

You do realize that the Big 3 have had much more of those things over the years...right?

--tayme

December 12, 2008 6:27 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Tayme

You realize that corporate executives in the US make 47x as much as their equivalents in Japan, right? (Date from The Economist)

And you realize that if our blue collar wages were as wildly out of line as you claim that Japan and Germany wouldn't be offshoring their assembly line jobs TO the US for a source of cheap labor.

So, care to provide some FACTS?

December 12, 2008 6:28 PM
 

tayme said:

@mikegalos - "You're citing the principal of the loan as the money given to the companies rather than the interest on the loans. "

Show me where I said that...please. But take your time. I am out for now. Have a good weekend.

--tayme

December 12, 2008 6:29 PM
 

shark47 said:

"nt. You do realize that most low to middle income North Americans and EU countries live much better than the low to middle income folks in the rest of the world, right?"

Of course I do. I've spent half of my life in such a country. Those are long term solutions and I agree with you. Fiscal conservatism is the way to go, in my opinion. The goal should not only be to cut down wasteful Government expenditure, but also to encourage people to save money.

Mike, you may be right about those facts. I don't think life expectancy depends only on the healthcare system.   By the way, maybe we need to consider how many people from Canada come down to the US for treatment of life threatening ailments.

December 12, 2008 6:31 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Another fact to offset tayme's emotional stories.

Executive vs worker pay by country:

Country - Executive take home pay relative to factory floor workers pay

Japan - 11x

Germany - 12x

France - 15x

Italy - 20x

Canada - 20x

South Africa - 21x

Britain - 22x

Hong Kong - 41x

Mexico - 47x

Venezuela - 50x

USA - 475x

Data from The Economist as reported on PBS' NOW website

December 12, 2008 6:32 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Another fact to offset tayme's "emotional anecdotes"

In 1951 the average fulltime worker in the US made 79.8% of the national median household income

In 2000 the average fulltime worker in the US made 53.3% of the national median household income.

That's a decrease of 1/3 of their income for the same hours worked after adjusting for inflation.

Source of data: Office of Management and Budget

December 12, 2008 6:36 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

(Don't ask for facts from an econometrics geek unless you really want them)

December 12, 2008 6:42 PM
 

tayme said:

That was fun...I really like riling up those that are easily excited. mikgalos and robertsjoe are so predictable. Now, I am really out for the weekend. Thanks for the good time today, mikegalos!

--tayme

December 12, 2008 6:57 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

shark

"By the way, maybe we need to consider how many people from Canada come down to the US for treatment of life threatening ailments."

If Canada were an anomaly, I'd say that could be a factor but the US is MUCH lower than pretty much every Western Industrial nation on both factors and I doubt enough French or British or German citizens are traveling to the US for treatment to change the numbers by much.

I'd suggest you go look at the World Factbook on the CIA website and look at the data for yourself. It's there for a couple of hundred nations plus aggregate world data.

The URL is www.cia.gov/.../index.html

December 12, 2008 7:01 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Gee, tayme,

The facts didn't agree with your biases so you're walking away. No surprise there.

Hope you actually learned something from seeing actual data but I really doubt it.

December 12, 2008 7:02 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Or, to cut to the chase for ranked data on the following:

Life Expectancy at Birth

www.cia.gov/.../2102rank.html

Infant Mortality

www.cia.gov/.../2091rank.html

GDP Real Growth Rate (we're #188 of 218)

www.cia.gov/.../2003rank.html

December 12, 2008 7:09 PM
 

cesjr said:

when the iphone first came out, my first reaction was - nobody but MS can even begin to compete with this.  I still think that's true, although maybe Google can also compete.

as for nokia, rim, etc. - they are toast.

the phone is becoming your computer.  those other guys have no experience or resources to do what apple and MS can do.

and MS has its work cut out for it because it's not really a hardware company.

December 12, 2008 7:16 PM
 

RobertC said:

It is rather hilarious that lotsamystuff posted a link "proving" that the foreign auto companies received similar amounts of government money.

If he bothered to read his own link, he would have found that the $3.6 billion figure is an aggregate total of government assistance over the last 28 years!

The US Autos have received many times that amount in the same time frame and they continue to lag every other foreign auto maker in basic measures like fuel economy, technological sophistication, and build quality.

December 12, 2008 7:21 PM
 

RobertC said:

I would also point out that there is nothing wrong with a government providing assistance to start-up ventures in the form of property and income tax exemptions if it means jobs will be created.

But there's a big difference between initial exemptions for start-ups and the ongoing bailouts of failed business plans of the US Autos. Obviously, that point was lost on Mike.

Furthermore Mike, I do not support the 700 billion bailout.

December 12, 2008 7:25 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

RobertC

Unless you have inflation adjusted data that doesn't count loan principal rather than interest and that doesn't count loan guarantees as the same as gifts you should probably stop laughing because his datas been a LOT more solid than anyone opposing the bridge loan has presented (here or in Congress)

December 12, 2008 7:26 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

RobertC,

So you're in favor of giving money to corporations to bribe them into locating in one town or another (because it creates jobs and unemployement is bad) but you're opposed to loaning money to keep those same jobs in existance (I guess unemployment isn't bad, then).

Care to explain the logic?

December 12, 2008 7:28 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

It's a massive mistake for Governments to use Windows. Especially burden students by making them use something as bad as Windows. Then to be tied to the Microsoft tax by going down the Windows route. Big mistake,

news.slashdot.org/article.pl

December 12, 2008 7:40 PM
 

RobertC said:

Mike, what part of "failed business plan" don't you understand?

The question is why should the federal government continue to bail-out an industry that has consistently shown no desire to improve. Tens of billions of government assistance over many decades has produced cars that nobody wants to buy because they are oversized, gas-guzzling behemoths running on outdated technology.

Why is it that Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes, BMW can all run vibrant manufacturing hubs in the United States, whilst the GM and Ford need to knock on the door of government to save them at every turn?

December 12, 2008 7:42 PM
 

RobertC said:

Robertsjoe, I hope your warped logic can countenance the fact that if you opt for Apple systems, you'll be similarly locked in to "Apple taxes" at annual rates of $129.

December 12, 2008 7:43 PM
 

RobertC said:

An excellent article from the Cato Institute. Here's an excerpt:

"Advocates oftentimes admit that bailouts are not good policy, but they invariably argue that short-term considerations should trump long-term sensible policy. Their biggest assertion is that a bailout is necessary to prevent bankruptcy, and that avoiding this result is critical to prevent catastrophe.

But Chapter 11 protection may be precisely what is needed to put American auto companies back on the path to profitability. Bankruptcy laws specifically are designed to give companies an opportunity - under court supervision - to reduce costs and streamline operations.

Bankruptcy would not be popular in some quarters, to be sure. The bloated management structure would be streamlined and many overpaid executives would be unhappy about having to find new jobs.

The UAW would be equally upset, particularly since bankruptcy might force an end to extravagant pension benefits and inefficient workplace practices. But bankruptcy is akin to getting an alcoholic to put down the bottle. There clearly will be short-term discomfort, but compassionate people recognize that this is the best approach.

America is on a dangerous path. The Wall Street bailout was a mistake. It transferred a huge amount of money from the productive sector of the economy to the government, and also exacerbated "moral hazard" by rewarding companies and executives who made dumb decisions. But this may be the tip of the iceberg.

A bailout of U.S.-headquartered auto companies also would be a mistake, as would bailouts of homeowners or any other constituency. If politicians genuinely want to help the economy, they should focus on reducing the burden of government, not increasing it."

www.cato.org/pub_display.php

December 12, 2008 8:03 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

RobertC

Interestingly there's absolutely no facts in what you quoted although there's a lot of opinion used to justify an inconsistant philosophy masquerading as political and economic theory.

But I expect that from the Cato Institute.

December 12, 2008 8:15 PM
 

tayme said:

@mikegalos - No, not walking away at all. Just finishing up some stuff, then heading home for the weekend. I think that if you go back and read through all of my posts, you will see that I actually agreed with you as much or more than I disagreed with you. I did disagree with you and your tendency to brush emotion and real life stories aside...but I am not surprised by it. In fact, it fits your profile perfectly.

All of my weekly loads are finally done now, I'm not sure why it took longer than normal tonight...so I am heading home...not "walking away" because you pwned me...no such thing occurred.

--tayme

December 12, 2008 8:16 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

tayme

and yet, you still have ignored the facts and fell back to "but I have apocryphal stories that tug at the heart strings so you should beleive them rather than those facts that say what I wish weren't true"

December 12, 2008 8:19 PM
 

RobertC said:

mike, again you duck, weave and obfuscate your way around the fact that the US Auto companies are poorly managed and produce cars nobody wants to buy. With that fact in mind, no government should be offering bailouts. Yet mike, in his sphere of self-delusion, believes that the US Autos can do no wrong and that government has all the answers. Thus it is no surprise that he chastises Cato.

December 12, 2008 8:22 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

And to short circuit the inevitable attack for daring to criticize the Cato Institute...

Anyone who can use Libertarian and Corporation in the same philosophy doesn't understand at least one of the terms.

December 12, 2008 8:22 PM
 

RobertC said:

Mike, it is the height of arrogant hypocrisy to accuse others of ignoring facts when you yourself can't even admit that the US Auto makers have failed business plans.

December 12, 2008 8:24 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

RobertC

No, I think they are poorly managed and produced really awful cars and still do in some cases (in others they've actually done a very good turnaround)

That has nothing to do with what I'm saying and you'd be hard pressed to find any time I've done anything but condemn their management.

Try again

December 12, 2008 8:24 PM
 

tayme said:

Oh, mikegalos...you just won't give up, will you. What "apocryphal stories that tug at the heart strings" have I posted in this thread? Of any other thread for that matter? You mean about the 2 DVD players in the van or the talking elevator? Yeah, real heart breaking, aren't they. Oh, well...Later.

--tayme

December 12, 2008 8:29 PM
 

shark47 said:

Frankly, is there anything wrong in asking people to cut back? Why do people here live beyond their means? Housing for all might be a noble cause, but it's one of the reasons for our problems. People are being encouraged to buy houses and cars and spend on consumer goods that they cannot afford. How much money does an average American save? Any statistics for that?

December 12, 2008 8:34 PM
 

RobertC said:

Mike, if an individual chooses to set up a corporation then I fail to see how that suddenly makes them "inconsistent" or incognisant of their own philosophy.

Also, you only admitted that their management was pathetic when backed into a corner. So, if their management is so poor, why should they be given a bridge loan? Is this simply a bridge to further bailouts under Barack Obama? Yes, I believe it is.

I repeat again: they do not deserve any government bailout. Just like the high-flying Wall Street executives deserved no bailout for their gross mismanagement. When will politicians realise that the Treasury is not a blank cheque of unlimited plunder.

December 12, 2008 8:35 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

RobertC,

That's because you still haven't answered:

So you're in favor of giving money to corporations to bribe them into locating in one town or another (because it creates jobs and unemployement is bad) but you're opposed to loaning money to keep those same jobs in existance (I guess unemployment isn't bad, then).

December 12, 2008 8:44 PM
 

RobertC said:

I already answered the question. But as usual, it wasn't what you wanted to hear Mike.

December 12, 2008 8:46 PM
 

shark47 said:

RobertC, you raise good points, but what about the job losses? With the unemployment numbers going up suddenly, the country will be pushed further into recession. That's the fear. They make such bad cars, it's a pity their being bailed out. Another excuse for incompetence.

December 12, 2008 8:47 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

RobertC

The cornerstone of "libertarianism" is lack of government intervetion in private matters such as commerce.

The cornerstone of a corporation is it's establishment and enforcement of its rights as an entity by the same government.

So a pro-corporate "Libertarian" is one who thinks government should protect their business from people but not protect people from their business.

It can't work because, like "Objectivism" it only works if you're so self centered that you forget that the same philosophy would have to work for more than just you and neither one scales beyond one person without collapsing under the weight of its contradictions.

December 12, 2008 8:51 PM
 

RobertC said:

shark47, in other parts of the United States, Volkswagen, Kia and Honda are opening up new plants. In other words, the United States is still capable of manufacturing cars - it's just that a combination of poor management, poor products, and extravagant union wages means that the domestic manufacturers are no longer capable of producing cars profitably in the US.

Thus, they do not deserve a government bailout. If government bailouts were one-off investments, then I would not be so concerted in my criticism. But the fact of the matter is that there is a litany of bailouts and subsidies running into the tens of billions for the US Autos over the last few decades and hence there is no evidence that this bailout will be the last.

December 12, 2008 8:55 PM
 

RobertC said:

Mike, are you arguing that a corporation should not be entitled to enforce its rights at law?

By the way, I'm not a libertarian. There is a role for government in things like health and education.

December 12, 2008 8:57 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

RobertC

If you did, it sure wasn't in any of the messages since I asked the question.  Feel free to explain it again.

Why is giving money to corporations to bribe them into locating in one town or another (supposedly because it creates jobs and unemployement is bad) a good thing

while

Loaning money (a much lower cost to the state) to keep those same jobs in existance is a bad thing.

Both are the State paying businesses for jobs (thus against everything the Cato Institute and Capitalism claim to stand for) while the former, that you support, actually hurts existing businesses by encouraging raiding their best employees by subsidizing their pay above what the market justifies. Are you just saying that the goal is to hurt existing businesses?

Really. I'd love to hear you explain that.

December 12, 2008 9:02 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

"Mike, are you arguing that a corporation should not be entitled to enforce its rights at law?"

No, I'm saying that any Libertarian who understands the basics of libertarian philosophy would have to say that. And anyone who claims to be a Libertarian who does see a place for corporations (like, say, the Cato Institute) is either a charlatan or self-deluded.

December 12, 2008 9:03 PM
 

shark47 said:

"Loaning money (a much lower cost to the state) to keep those same jobs in existance is a bad thing."

Well, it's not that simple. If GM was run efficiently and made good vehicles, then fine. Even in a good economy, GM is not sure to survive. IT could end up being a case of 'penny wise, pound foolish'.

December 12, 2008 9:18 PM
 

RobertC said:

Mike,

Giving tax exemptions to encourage business is not the same as a subsidy. Do I really need to explain these elementary things to someone who proclaims to be a bastion of facts?

December 12, 2008 9:30 PM
 

johnpapola said:

Yeah... so... anyway... about that Windows Mobile...

December 12, 2008 9:36 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

RobertC

Tax exemptions are a subsidy.

Period

Why doesn't change whether they are.

December 12, 2008 9:51 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

johnpapola

"Yeah... so... anyway... about that Windows Mobile..."

Great operating system

Dimbulb article discussing it that's got so much wrong that it hasn't been worth discussing.

December 12, 2008 10:02 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

This thing needs threaded comments. The one timeline for all the different discussions makes it even more difficult. At least one would be able to follow a thread of conversation within a post.

December 12, 2008 10:58 PM
 

How to fix Windows Mobile - SuperSite Blog | kozmom said:

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December 12, 2008 11:06 PM
 

subzerohitman721 said:

Very Intersting both on the Windows Mobile and the Auto Bailout. I do think Microsoft should start from scratch on WM and develop something that doesn't crash so much. I think Microsoft needs to redo now before Apple, RIM and Nokia run far ahead to catch up.

As for the auto bail out and livng beyond our means. Apple is a perfect example of living beyond our means. Do you really need to spend $1,200? Or could you buy a cheaper machine that does the same thing. All of Leopard's functionality can be duplicated in Vista. I can do exactly what Apple users do at much less cost on Windows. If you want me to sacrifice something, then tell Steve Jobs and the Mac users to sacrifice. But that would be unreasonable.

Can we say double standard? Yet the same Republican Senators of the southern states put foreign automakers ahead of American auto makers. That is wrong, IMO. I smell the Republicans putting re-election, protecting Big Oil's monopoly, and keeping their war chest fully funded. Instead of doing whats best for the nation while making sure deep changes to the Big 3 happened, they play politics with this bailout.

If you want the workers of the UAW to sacrifice, the management, and the shareholders should eat their equal part of the sacrifice pie.

The workers of Toyota make roughly 30 bucks an hour. The GM workers make approximately 28 bucks an hour. So what kind of pay cuts to they want? No, they want benefit cuts. Toyota doesn't have the amount of workers that GM does. However, if Toyota did have that many workers, their balance sheets would most likely look like GM's. Yet GM is in a position to finish the Volt ahead of Toyota Gas/Electric Hybrid. Its simply union busting that the GOP wants to do.

I don't like the unions, but they are a necessary evil. I do think they need to be tweaked and checked. However, everytime you crackdown on unions, the non union workers get hurt just as bad.

Thats why I don't understand why southern states vote Republican. Voting against their economic self interest over some out dated ideology that Republicans have never in their history held up.

December 12, 2008 11:31 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Subzero

"Thats why I don't understand why southern states vote Republican."

You understand why non-southern states do?

December 13, 2008 1:14 AM
 

DRWAM said:

When statistics are gathered, if they are not standardized, they can be misleading or just wrong. Infant mortality  in the US includes still born, which is not included in most of the above stats. Also, our urban infant deaths due mostly to drug use brings the US infant mortality  lower than many countries. Speaking of lifestyles in this rich US countires, you'll notice fast food on every corner. We are an obese country, which is also degrading our health, lower our lifespan. My point is the above metrics to measure health care success have too numerous factors to yield an adequate analysis. Just because, it may be 'all we got', does not make it reliable. I guess that the lesson is and always has been, improve your lifestyle and you will have fewer health problems and live longer [unless you get hit by a bus].

December 13, 2008 8:52 AM
 

shark47 said:

"Can we say double standard? Yet the same Republican Senators of the southern states put foreign automakers ahead of American auto makers. "

No. They would be putting foreign automakers over American automakers if they gave them the $14 bn. instead. Forbes has an interesting artcle about it in the latest issue (Dec 22). For GM to survive, the actual amount of the bridge loan should be between $20 and $20 billion, they say. The7y speculate that Congress and the Obama administration would probably be willing to sign the check in return for some environmental promises.

Whether or not the bailout happens and whether or not the company files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy, it's going to look a lot different at the end of this crisis than it does today. Jobs will be lost, no matter what. Dealerships will be closed and some models will have to be discontinued. Neither the bailout nor the bankruptcy court can force customers to buy gM's cars though.

Here's an interesting article. Republicans tend to buy more American cars than Dems according to the article.

www.nytimes.com/.../01red.html

"Among their findings: buyers of American cars tend to be Republican - except, for some reason, those who buy Pontiacs, who tend to be Democrats. Foreign-brand compact cars are usually bought by Democrats - but not Mini Coopers, which are bought by almost equal numbers of Democrats and Republicans. And Volvos may not actually represent quite what you think."

December 13, 2008 9:01 AM
 

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December 14, 2008 11:45 AM
 

External Blogs said:

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December 14, 2008 11:51 AM
 

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December 14, 2008 12:08 PM
 

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December 14, 2008 7:02 PM
 

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December 14, 2008 7:26 PM
 

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December 14, 2008 8:00 PM
 

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December 14, 2008 9:04 PM
 

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December 14, 2008 9:44 PM
 

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December 14, 2008 10:46 PM
 

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December 15, 2008 12:26 AM
 

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December 15, 2008 2:33 AM
 

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December 15, 2008 2:45 AM
 

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December 15, 2008 4:01 AM
 

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December 15, 2008 4:39 AM
 

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December 15, 2008 5:09 AM
 

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December 15, 2008 1:00 PM
 

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December 15, 2008 5:11 PM
 

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December 16, 2008 6:25 AM
 

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December 16, 2008 6:31 AM
 

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December 16, 2008 8:37 AM
 

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December 16, 2008 1:04 PM
 

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December 16, 2008 1:54 PM
 

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December 16, 2008 2:40 PM
 

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December 16, 2008 3:37 PM
 

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December 17, 2008 2:13 AM
 

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December 17, 2008 7:31 AM
 

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December 18, 2008 7:39 AM
 

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December 19, 2008 7:15 AM
 

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December 19, 2008 8:23 AM
 

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December 20, 2008 4:40 PM
 

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February 2, 2009 5:22 PM
 

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March 16, 2009 12:30 AM
 

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