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How to fix Windows Mobile

This is an interesting if misguided article and, coincidentally, I met with the Windows Mobile folks just this week, so it’s good timing as well:

In recent months, Microsoft's mobile strategy has hit a rough patch. In the third quarter, iPhone maker Apple shipped more smartphones than all 56 device makers that make Windows Mobile phones combined, according to research firm Canalys. As a result, Windows Mobile slid from its position as the world's second-most popular mobile operating system a year ago to the No. 4 spot, behind Nokia's Symbian, Apple's OS X, and Research In Motion's BlackBerry.

Windows Mobile's share may drop to 11% this year from 12% in 2007, says Chris Ambrosio, an executive director for wireless at research firm Strategy Analytics. "On the important issues, they are chasing the market," Ambrosio says. "And they've got to chase much faster" to ensure continued carrier and handset makers' support, he adds.

To keep partners and developers on board, analysts say Microsoft needs to adapt Windows Mobile software for use with touch interface. However, a major update may not hit the market until 2010.

Yep. This is bad. Microsoft is working on a number of things before that major update, Windows Mobile 7. These include a new version of the WM version of IE, called Internet Explorer 6, and a new Windows Mobile platform called Zune Mobile that includes Zune functionality. But it’s not happening quickly enough.

Microsoft also should also follow Google's and Apple's lead in the area of wireless cloud-computing services.

Um. I assume that’s a joke. Apple does not “lead” in cloud computing services, and if anything, Microsoft’s presence in this market gives it a breadth and depth that is unavailable anywhere else, including Google. Windows Mobile has many problems. This is not one of them.

What Microsoft does need is a single, integrated online store for Windows Mobile applications and services. This is arguably the biggest innovation of the iPhone, and not its trendy and most-likely over-hyped touch interface.

In December, Microsoft also announced it's working with Blockbuster to deliver movies to cell phones. Eventually the service will let consumers start watching a movie on one device—say, a TV—and continue watching it on a cell phone while on the go. Microsoft is also beefing up mobile services through its acquisitions last year of Musiwave, which provides music services for cell phones, and TellMe, offering voice-based mobile search services.

One step Microsoft should avoid, analysts say, is building its own branded phone, as has been rumored. Such a phone would damage the behemoth's existing relationships with handset makers.

Well. They are going to do that, sorry. I’d argue that Microsoft’s relationships with handset makers is, in fact, its biggest weakness in the mobile market. In fact, in looking over this article, I see lots of interesting information about Windows Mobile, but precious little in the way of good advice. Yes, Microsoft needs an online store. Duh. But no, they already get cloud computing, so that’s a silly non-starter. Microsoft needs to take control of its future in the smart phone market and it can’t do that unless it makes its own devices or its partner make serious, Apple-like concessions. Guess which one is more likely?

As I noted previously, I did meet with Windows Mobile this week. They’re good people, smart people, and they seem to understand the issues. They also seem to value the business market more than the consumer market, but that might only be because that’s what they pretty much offer at this point. I will be writing more formally about Windows Mobile by the end of the year, but I wanted to at least mention one thing I found vaguely alarming. When asked about the success of the iPhone and how that impacts Windows Mobile, I was told that the iPhone “validated” Microsoft’s approach. That’s some weird combination of revisionism, wishful thinking and, perhaps, delusion.

I think Microsoft needs to be much more aggressive in this market. And that’s pretty much the only advice I can really give.

Comments

 

Ocean said:

Line of the week, right here:

>>That’s some weird combination of revisionism, wishful thinking and, perhaps, delusion.<<

Paul said:

>>I think Microsoft needs to be much more aggressive in this market.<<

Would that include making their own devices?

December 12, 2008 9:13 AM
 

Ocean said:

Paul, they define what they mean by cloud computing in the next sentence.  You're just being obtuse by not taking note of that.  

>>Microsoft also should also follow Google's and Apple's lead in the area of wireless cloud-computing services. The move would shift energy-sapping computing power away from users' cell phones and onto the powerful servers maintained by Microsoft. Rivals are already offering such services. When you purchase an iPhone application from the Apple App Store, the payment is processed on Apple's servers rather than on an individual device. When you ask your G1 to find the nearest sushi joint, it's Google's servers and not your phone that churn out the map. In both cases, your phone doesn't do much legwork. Most of the processing is done on remote servers "in a cloud."<<

I don't think much of the point they are making, but the context *is* there for the understanding.

December 12, 2008 9:19 AM
 

mdsharpe said:

I love Windows Mobile. And yet, the o2 XDA Serra aka HTC Touch Pro is probably the most unusable device I've ever bought.

It has errors like "device.exe has crashed" all the time, and is frustratingly unresponsive. On top of that, I am unable to sign into Messenger on the device, though I suspect that may be related to using Messenger beta on the desktop. Why is there not an easy way to update Windows Live for Windows Mobile?

Aside from Windows Mobile's problems, I think the main issue is the poor job the networks and HTC do of bundling up tonnes of junk such as TouchFLO 3D which slow the device to a crawl.

That and the fact that the only way to get a decent ROM upgrade is through enthusiast community XDA-Developers.

Essentially, the Windows Mobile experience is paying a premium cost for a flaky device and then having no meaningful support and/or software updates.

December 12, 2008 9:20 AM
 

Delmont said:

I'm a Windows guy....but to me...the iPhone wins because of the built in iPod and thus it's connectivity with iTunes. Microsoft just flat out doesn't have anything to compete. Microsoft is late to the game. So, to me Microsoft must change the strategy of the game and the rules how to win.

Also like Paul side: Microsoft is focused on the business side. Apple's iPhone is focused on the consumer side. But the sides appear to be merging...so....Microsoft needs to catch up and fast.  I think as history as shown Microsoft does best when it's behind in the game. Competition is good. And for Mike Galos: to extrapolate out: greed is good, greed works.

December 12, 2008 9:30 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"When asked about the success of the iPhone and how that impacts Windows Mobile, I was told that the iPhone “validated” Microsoft’s approach."

Sounds like "mikegalos" or, as I like to call it, "Wae-speak".

Of course, since Microsoft only expends a minuscule amount of time thinking about Apple (per "mikegalos"), they probably didn't have time to formulate an intelligent response, so they spewed the first thing that came to mind.

"I see lots of interesting information about Windows Mobile, but precious little in the way of good advice."

Here's mine. Follow the Zune path: Give up and start over. Declare Windows Mobile functionally and creatively bankrupt, and come back with something amazing, not another "me too" product that no one wants when there are better alternatives. Microsoft has come -this- close with the Zune; there's no reason to think they couldn't hit a home run with a reworked (and rebranded) Windows Mobile*.

Windows Mobile might have been acceptable when there wasn't any compelling alternative, but the iPhone changed everything.

* Well, actually, there is.It'd be nice to see Microsoft change the rules again, but I don't think big revolutionary change is possible for them at this point. I'd like to be wrong (you know, rising tides and all that), but I'm probably not.

December 12, 2008 10:05 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"Would that include making their own devices?"

Yes. They need to throw their partners under the bus and get busy controlling their own destiny.

December 12, 2008 10:06 AM
 

What ‘Zune Mobile’ is and isn’t | All about Microsoft | ZDNet.com said:

Pingback from  What &#8216;Zune Mobile&#8217; is and isn&#8217;t | All about Microsoft | ZDNet.com

December 12, 2008 10:18 AM
 

johnpapola said:

I believe that Apple's "lead" in cloud computing is a reference to iTunes and the App Store, both of which are arguably cloud computing/hybrid internet platforms and the former is of course a huge leader in its market.

I see no reason why Microsoft can't make a phone.  It's becoming increasingly clear that this next wave of computing is better served by Apple's integrated hardware/software model.  People expect appliance-like performance from their devices and the Apple model is the best way to ensure that.  So it makes perfect sense for Microsoft to follow that in phones just as they did with Xbox and Zune, both of which are very good (minus the xbox hardware reliability of course).

I welcome the competition, because it'll be good for everyone.  

December 12, 2008 10:18 AM
 

RobertC said:

I think when they refer to the iPhone validating their approach, they mean that the iPhone's developer focus via the app store in order to create a vibrant software ecosystem.

The success of Windows on the desktop and on mobile devices has a lot to do with its vast compatibility with tens of thousands of software titles and hardware devices.

The iPhone only started to take off when Apple finally realised that a) the first iteration was much too expensive and b) a closed shop limits the potential success of the device. Rather than being a niche, the iPhone is now mainstream.

Of course, that's notwithstanding the other issues that I have with the iPhone's touch-only interface.

December 12, 2008 10:20 AM
 

Ocean said:

>>The iPhone only started to take off when Apple finally realised that a) the first iteration was much too expensive <<\

I think they planned the price drop all along.  

December 12, 2008 10:29 AM
 

RobertC said:

John, a major part of the iPhone's appeal is that it is made by Apple, whom everyone knows make wildly popular MP3 devices. That brand cachet is hard to replicate.

That said, there's no reason why Microsoft's current business model cannot continue to work. The only reason why Windows Mobile is perceived to be trailing is that its current iteration was not designed to be primarily finger-operated. The reality is that the Windows Mobile ecosystem is very vibrant with tonnes of software available for the OS - the only difference is that not all of it is available in a central, easy-to-access location like the iPhone App Store. As Paul said, something akin to the App Store would go a long way to improve the utility of Windows Mobile as well as encourage developers to keep writing software for the platform.

Thus, with a decent code renovation (especially focussed on the browsing experience), a snazzier, touch-centric UI and some classy hardware, Windows Mobile has the opportunity to be much more successful if Microsoft engenders better relationships with its partners.

December 12, 2008 10:35 AM
 

RobertC said:

<I think they planned the price drop all along.>

Rubbish. There's only one reason why a company would dramatically slash the price of their products within a short time of release: they're not selling.

You can drink all the Steve Jobs kool-aid that you want, but it won't change cold hard business facts.

December 12, 2008 10:37 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"There's only one reason why a company would dramatically slash the price of their products within a short time of release: they're not selling."

Really? Then explain similar price drops for the Motorola RAZR, which was selling like crazy at a nearly $600 price point, but within a year was practically available in Cracker Jack boxes as a free prize.

The rules are different for cellular handhelds; such price drops are de rigueur in that milieu.

It has nothing to do with "Steve Jobs kool-aid", it has to do with facts. Given your avatar, I understand that your grasp of such things may not be completely firm.

December 12, 2008 10:53 AM
 

weedmonk said:

"I believe that Apple's "lead" in cloud computing is a reference to iTunes and the App Store, both of which are arguably cloud computing/hybrid internet platforms and the former is of course a huge leader in its market."

Wow. I'm sure that what they though as well when they *unleased* MobileMe earlier this year. I'm still laughing that you cite iTunes. roflmao

December 12, 2008 10:54 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"As Paul said, something akin to the App Store would go a long way to improve the utility of Windows Mobile as well as encourage developers to keep writing software for the platform."

It's been pointed out by WinJihadists here before that Handango has been offering thousands of programs for Windows Mobile and Blackberry phones for years. Obviously, applications aren't the issue here. Heck, there are tons of programs available for my Centro. Guess what? Purchasing and installing them is a pain. It's NOTHING like the iPhone experience.

Again...the iPhone changed the rules. It's about ease of use--from purchasing to usability, to price, to the quality of the programs. I don't think MS gets it. Yet.

December 12, 2008 10:59 AM
 

tayme said:

@RobertC - "a snazzier, touch-centric UI and some classy hardware"

Check out the Samsung Omnia. It is a WinMo 6.1 Pro touch device that, in my opinion, is superior to the iPhone. In the US, it is available only on Verizon, which to some people is a bad thing...but remember, the iPhone is only available on AT&T's smaller, less reliable 3G network.

I'll be waiting to be labled an MS fanboi by some of the regulars here...but I think that is obviously untrue if you have been reading Paul's stuff long.

--tayme

December 12, 2008 10:59 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"The only reason why Windows Mobile is perceived to be trailing is that its current iteration was not designed to be primarily finger-operated."

"PERCEIVED" to be trailing? You want us to look at "cold hard business facts" and you can't read sales numbers? Can you spot a trendline?

The market has spoken, and Windows Mobile has certainly been given "the finger".

December 12, 2008 11:01 AM
 

Ocean said:

Common sense says that they didn't expect to sell 10 million phones at $499.  Perhaps they did do it sooner than expected, but the plan all along was to drop the price of entry as they did with the iPod.

December 12, 2008 11:04 AM
 

RobertC said:

lotsamystuff, the iPhone sold terribly in its first three months. Only about 3 million were sold in its first six months on the market - and it took 74 days to sell the first million which is a clear indicator that price was too high. Hence, prices slashed. If this was a planned thing all along, then why would Apple bother "apologising" to early-adopters with a $100 voucher? Again, too much kool-aid for you.

By the way, I agree that buying and downloading apps is clunky on Windows Mobile. iPhone is way ahead there. To be honest, it wouldn't take much for Microsoft to do something similar. While Microsoft tends to shy away from all-encompassing centrally planned services, an App store really does make a lot of sense and gets developers much more exposure than they otherwise would via more conventional marketing efforts. They could just call it Windows Mobile Marketplace.

December 12, 2008 11:12 AM
 

Dipsh t Admin said:

""PERCEIVED" to be trailing?"

Well, up until the last sales figures were released just very recently, it was indeed a perception, but wasn't a reality yet.

I also feel that the partners have caught up in many ways.  If you look at some older offerings, they were all pretty bulky devices and nothing interesting.  As tayme mentioned the Samsung Omnia, Xperia, HTC Touch, Touch Pro and Touch HD (with a full 800x600 resolution) have created some excitement where there was none.

Considering that Windows Mobile has been primarily for use by business users, I think that they have been hemorrhaging more to BlackBerry than to Apple.  Hence, that is what I think they mean by their validation point, where they say we are for business, they are for the consumers.  However, MS is moving way too slow in this market, and needs some major improvements to come down the pike.  

Based on NDA requirements, while Paul can't say what new stuff may be coming out, the fact that he posted this seems to indicate that nothing great is coming out., or it certainly isn't coming out fast enough.

December 12, 2008 11:15 AM
 

RobertC said:

Hi Tayme,

I'm aware of the Samsung omnia and I've also taken a look at the Sony Xperia X1. Both devices are great and I personally prefer their design over the shiny-scratchtastic design of the iPhone.

It is interesting that you mention the AT&T network, because in Australia where I'm from, Telstra (the dominant incumbent telco) operates the largest and fastest 3G network in the world using the same 850mhz 3G spectrum as AT&T. The network covers more than 99% of the population, or over 2 million square kilometres, and can reach speeds of 14.4mbps.

So network reliability is really not an issue for me.

December 12, 2008 11:18 AM
 

chuckb84 said:

Guys, if you think the point of the iPhone is that it is a "phone", then you're not paying attention. Yes, it is incidentally also a phone, but it is a mobile platform that accessing cloud computing better than anything else. And, as has already been pointed out in many other venues, the killer app for the iPhone is a meta-app, the iTunes store, an app that sells apps. It is the apps sold by the meta-app that connect to the cloud, in many different ways.

Microsoft has nothing like this, nor does anyone else.

Microsoft's "partners" have failed in the phone business even more abjectly than their mp3 player partners failed in the music player business. Verizon, Nokia, et al, are in the "phone" business and don't get that the game has changed.

Cars were not made by horse and buggy companies that adapted; portable computing devices are not being made, in any useful sense, by phone companies.

Microsoft definitely should abandon there erstwhile partners, and proceed, a la Zune, to make their own device. Not a "phone", but a real competitor to the Apple device.

This is not a bad post from Paul. He is wrong on one point,

"What Microsoft does need is a single, integrated online store for Windows Mobile applications and services. This is arguably the biggest innovation of the iPhone, and not its trendy and most-likely over-hyped touch interface."

The touch interface is not over-hyped; it's the future in handheld devices, because there is nothing else as versatile in a device too small for a real keyboard and built in pointing device.

December 12, 2008 11:18 AM
 

shark47 said:

Actually, Paul, what MS can do is cut down the number of hardware partners to more manageable numbers and work more closely with them. In fact, there's a lot the company can do without abandoning its business model. Of course, it does call for greater collaboration between OEMs and MS.

December 12, 2008 11:18 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

www.brighthand.com/default.asp

'Verizon has already cut the price of its version of the Samsung Omnia, even though it just launched this touchscreen-oriented Windows Mobile smartphone last week.

"Samsung Omnia for VerizonThe Omnia debuted on this carrier's website on Nov. 26 for $250 after a $70 mail-in rebate with a new two-year customer agreement. Just a few days later, it is now selling for $200 under those same conditions.

"No reason for this change was given, but as the Omnia is often compared to the iPhone, Verizon decided that this model should sell for the same price as Apple's smartphone."

Huh. So Apple's not the only one that drops prices shortly after introduction.

And the reviews? Less than stellar (Engadget's review was priceless: "we found that TouchWiz let us spend our average day without really seeing a native Windows Mobile screen, and that's a good -- nay, a great thing").

Then there's this: http://tinyurl.com/6aqnwe

"Bottom line: After 45 minutes poking and getting frustrated by it, my verdict is to avoid it like the pest. As a consumer, my first impression is clearly one of horror and frustration. I would rather get an HTC. Or a Sony. Or a Nokia."

Or this one: http://tinyurl.com/6565m3

"I don't think the current version of Windows Mobile does the device justice. The Omnia is simply the best WinMo competitor to the Apple iPhone on the market I've tried but it isn't enough.  A year from now I hope we'll have a better Windows Mobile OS out the door that a screen only device like the Omnia can really take advantage of. "

December 12, 2008 11:21 AM
 

RobertC said:

lotsamystuff, the iPhone is targeted at consumers despite its touted compatibility with enterprise services. Yes, it has sold well but I would confidently bet that the iPhone is performing poorly in the business market because of its incessant need to be tied to the buggy and useless iTunes which requires a 70mb download just for an incremental patch.

December 12, 2008 11:21 AM
 

shark47 said:

I think the problem with all these devices like HTC Touch, Omnia, etc. is that Windows Mobile 6.1 wasn't designed to be a touch input OS, so even though some things work, others don't, leading to an inconsistent user experience. MS should've come up with a *new* consumer centric touch OS for these devices. I don't believe that the platform is doomed, by the way.  

December 12, 2008 11:22 AM
 

Incremental Blogger » Blog Archive » Is Windows Mobile deadending itself? said:

Pingback from  Incremental Blogger  &raquo; Blog Archive   &raquo; Is Windows Mobile deadending itself?

December 12, 2008 11:23 AM
 

RobertC said:

Dipsh, I agree. It's easy to say that iPhone has trumped Windows Mobile, when the reality is that WM has always been a business-centric OS. iPhone has dramatically more consumer appeal than most WM devices.

But I think we can all agree that Microsoft really needs to get its ass into gear on this front. It has the required talent and know-how to make something great.

December 12, 2008 11:25 AM
 

shark47 said:

RobertC, you bring up good points. Microsoft needs a consumer focused phone. I think "Zune Mobile" might be the way to go.

Note: When they attack your political views, rather than your views on the topic, you know you have a point, right? :-)

December 12, 2008 11:31 AM
 

RobertC said:

shark47, too true. All hail free markets and deregulation. :)

December 12, 2008 11:35 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"All hail free markets and deregulation. :) "

Yeah, that's working well.

Of course, the bastardized Republican definition of "free markets" is nothing like the Libertarian definition. Thousand-pages-long agreements do not equal "free trade".

December 12, 2008 11:46 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

"Of course, the bastardized Republican definition of "free markets" is nothing like the Libertarian definition."

Of course, any version of "Libertarian" that endorses the existance of Corporations is nothing like actual libertarianism.

December 12, 2008 11:56 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

"All hail free markets and deregulation."

Yeah, the US steel industry's doing so much better now than it was in the regulation heavy 1960s.

Oh, wait. Maybe you mean the US auto industry. Nah. That's not it. The US electronics manufacturing industry? No. Maybe the US aircraft industry? The airlines? One word... Plastics? Nah. Banking? Finance? Agriculture? Meat packing? Health care?

OK. I give up. Where has the deregulation fever of the last 28 years helped the US?

December 12, 2008 12:09 PM
 

RobertC said:

Mike, explain to me how constant bail-outs of the US Auto industry as well as heavy farm subsidies have actually helped the companies involved on the international market.

I cannot believe the hide of the US Auto companies demanding tens of billions of taxpayer dollars to subsidise their failed business plans, which includes an overpaid union workforce, outdated technology and gas-guzzling behemoths. Yeah, a whole great deal big government has achieved.

Save me the claptrap mike.,

December 12, 2008 12:32 PM
 

chipwinter said:

I'm pleased to see that Microsoft seems to be bringing their Zune mp3 player strategy (i.e., build it ourselves, rather than with partners) to their mobile product.

Imagine how the market would change if they were as successful in the phone market as the Zune is in the music player market.

December 12, 2008 12:33 PM
 

Delmont said:

Chuck,

Cars were not made by horse and buggy companies that converted? Ever heard of Billy Durant....he was a guy here in the Flint area...he formed General Motors oh 100 years ago!  Google his name and read up before saying things.

December 12, 2008 12:39 PM
 

tayme said:

@"lotsamystuff" - Where in Keith Combs' Blahg did you see the quote below. I have searched and searched. I will assume that you posted the wrong link with that quote. I have been reading Keith's stuff for quite a while and trust him. The biggest thing that turned him off about it was that to get the $200 price point, you have to sign a 2 year deal with Verizon. Isn't that the same as the iPhone/AT&T deal.

Just last week, I was able to do a 45 minute side by side comparison of an iPhone vs Omnia. In my opinion, the Omnia won hands down...from responsiveness to features to call clarity. Since I am considering a touch screen smart phone, I think that I will be getting an Omnia soon.

"Bottom line: After 45 minutes poking and getting frustrated by it, my verdict is to avoid it like the pest. As a consumer, my first impression is clearly one of horror and frustration. I would rather get an HTC. Or a Sony. Or a Nokia."

--tayme

December 12, 2008 12:39 PM
 

Delmont said:

RobertC:   Good point!  And very good logo!

December 12, 2008 12:41 PM
 

shark47 said:

Since this has already gone OT, Mike, do you believe that a Democratic govt would be better for MS?

December 12, 2008 12:45 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

RobertC

Tell us first how the US Auto Industry is collapsing due to their being over regulated?

I don't recall the US Government requiring them to make gas-guzzling behemoths or use outdated technology or have clueless executives whose only answer to any question for decades has been "offshoring". (Yeah, that worked)

On the other hand, Toyota and Honda and Daimler-Benz all seem to have been able to do quite well manufacturing in the US with the same "overregulation"

So I guess you're saying that Japan, Korea and Germany are deregulated, "libertarian" utopias?

More likely, they saw the US as a source of cheap labor and government handouts and decided that "offshoring" TO the US was the way to save money.

December 12, 2008 12:47 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"Where has the deregulation fever of the last 28 years helped the US?"

Privatization certainly didn't help Canadian health care (which is certainly much better than US health care mind you).  It's still regulated, mind you, but Bob Rae totally f*ed it up.  Now he's supposedly a Liberal, and was (up until recently) vying for the Liberal leadership.  Nobody likes him though.

December 12, 2008 12:47 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

shark

I think a non-corrupt government from either party would help Microsoft. Preferably one that doesn't think science and technology are evil.

Interestingly, the companies that started in the PC industry (like Microsoft and Apple) tend to have leaders who are big supporters of the Democrats. The companies that started in the "centralized computing" world like SUN and Oracle tend to be big supporters of the Republicans.

December 12, 2008 12:51 PM
 

Dipsh t Admin said:

mike, Robert wasn't talking about regulation.  He was talking about bailouts.  And you just proved that he is right by saying that Toyota and Honda have made great progress here without the help of the government, and probably more of the government actually being against them.  However, in either case, the US auto industry only has itself to blame for its problems.

December 12, 2008 1:07 PM
 

tayme said:

In my opinion, labor unions had a time and a place in this country and did a tremendous job cleaning up workplaces during that period. Today, they are just as corrupt and unfair to the workers and the consumers as management of any company or as big government is. They have caused prices of many goods to skyrocket by insisting on unreasonable wages and benefits for workers. I have several uncles that worked union shops and have nothing positive to say about the unions at all.

Enough politics...The weekend is upon us. Enjoy!

--tayme

December 12, 2008 1:23 PM
 

tayme said:

@"lotsamystuff" - Sorry, it was me that was off on the links and quotes. Unfortunately, I am not able to view the middle link for some reason. But, I have probably already seen it anyway. I have done a ton of research on the Omnia nad other touch screen phones as I get ready to make the jump.

--tayme

December 12, 2008 1:29 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Dipsh

The Japanese, Korean and German auto makers in the south have gotten more government money than Detroit's asking for. Take a look at their various tax exemptions and "enterprise funding" breaks, etc.

December 12, 2008 1:33 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Dipsh

You might want to pay attention to the fact that it's a Senator from Alabama (where the biggest industry is foreign auto plants) leading the opposition to the Detroit bailout. It's not about philosophy of government, it's about lobbying for the big foreign competitors to Detroit that are in his state.

December 12, 2008 1:51 PM
 

tayme said:

@mikegalos - Can you provide factual evidence of that? I would venture a guess that most of those exemptions and breaks come from local and state governments rather than the federal government, and an equal or greater amount has been offered to and taken by the "Big 3".

--tayme

December 12, 2008 1:56 PM
 

chuckb84 said:

Delmont

"Cars were not made by horse and buggy companies that converted? Ever heard of Billy Durant....he was a guy here in the Flint area...he formed General Motors oh 100 years ago!  Google his name and read up before saying things."

Surely. Here's what wikipedia says "William was a high school dropout, yet had become a leading manufacturer of horse-drawn vehicles by 1890, based in Flint, Michigan. When approached to become General Manager of Buick in 1904, he made a similar success and was soon president of this horseless-vehicle company."

So he moved from one company (horse and buggy), to GM. This is not the same as a horse and buggy company converting to produce cars, which was what I said did NOT happen.

Individuals moved across industries, but companies did not convert. Perhaps it was a bad analogy; I don't know the whole history of the founding of the auto industry.

However, I am quite clear that Verizon/ATT/Nokia/et al are still thinking "phone" in an era when they should be thinking "mobile computing device that connects to the cloud". The disconnect is profound.

December 12, 2008 2:02 PM
 

shark47 said:

"I think a non-corrupt government from either party would help Microsoft. Preferably one that doesn't think science and technology are evil."

Fair enough.

I think an institution like EC stifles innovation. Regulation is good as it helps the consumer by promoting competition, but too much regulation does more harm than good.

December 12, 2008 2:18 PM
 

Delmont said:

Chuck,

OK, whatever....I know much more about the history and bio of Durant...here is more: www.mlive.com/.../billy_durant_was_leader_among.html

www.fee.org/.../article.asp

What you stated is not the details by any means.....

But back on topic: I agree. I wouldn't consider any phone really expect the iPhone next. Again, I'm a full Microsoft person...but there is nothing to compete with the iPod/iPhone/iTunes and the app store.

Microsoft hires very smart people. If Apple can do it, Microsoft should easily be able to.

December 12, 2008 2:31 PM
 

Ocean said:

This thread is very OT.

You guys are hypocrites.

December 12, 2008 2:33 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"The Japanese, Korean and German auto makers in the south have gotten more government money than Detroit's asking for. Take a look at their various tax exemptions and "enterprise funding" breaks, etc."

"You might want to pay attention to the fact that it's a Senator from Alabama (where the biggest industry is foreign auto plants) leading the opposition to the Detroit bailout. It's not about philosophy of government, it's about lobbying for the big foreign competitors to Detroit that are in his state."

For once "mikegalos" is absolutely correct.

December 12, 2008 2:34 PM
 

animositysomina said:

Wae, "good" Canadian health care is a legend perpetuated by commies and socialists. Try to wait for several months in line like I did (I'm Canadian BTW) and then speak for "good" Canadian healthcare. It's all looking bright from the south side of the border, sure. Not so on the other side, mind you.

December 12, 2008 2:46 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"Wae, "good" Canadian health care is a legend ... try to wait for several months in line like I did (I'm Canadian BTW) and then speak for "good" Canadian healthcare. It's all looking bright from the south side of the border, sure. Not so on the other side, mind you."

A-freaking-men.

December 12, 2008 2:57 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"You guys are hypocrites."

And you're sexist.  ;-)

December 12, 2008 2:57 PM
 

Lindy said:

Canadian health care (which is certainly much better than US health care mind you)."

I work with a Canadian contractor and he says the exact opposite.  His sister fractured her ankle and could not get into the "government provided" Dr. Office/hospital right away, so she had to pay a private doctor to help her.  He regularly says we Americans dont know how bad it can be.  He is dreading having to go back after his year is up.

Not that I think the US health care system is great, it works, it just cost a lot.

December 12, 2008 3:00 PM
 

Lindy said:

@mikegalos - Can you provide factual evidence of that?"

I would wager the answer to that is a big fat NO!

December 12, 2008 3:01 PM
 

beaker said:

What does "over-hyped touch interface" mean? How can it be over-hyped when everyone out there is copying it? Look at all of the new phones - they are copying the design of the iPhone. You said it yourself on a recent Windows Weekly.

I don't know what over-hyped means when everyone is trying to catch up to it.

December 12, 2008 3:26 PM
 

animositysomina said:

Lindy, usually legend perpetuators like Wae stop telling fairy tales about Canadian healthcare the moment they got here.

I saw one such American myself, my former manager. It was pretty funny to hear her confessions about how she went to a local doctor here and was told to wait in line for some test for a few months. She was like "WHAT???" :)))

Yeah, those delusions die hard. Wae won't stop telling commie fairy tales until he starts living in Canada.

Good for him being American and all that. I'll move south the moment I get an opprtunity (couldn't do it for family reasons, having a baby and stuff)

December 12, 2008 3:30 PM
 

shark47 said:

"Wae won't stop telling commie fairy tales until he starts living in Canada."

You do know that Wae lives in Canada and Lindy, in the US, right? :-)

December 12, 2008 3:38 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

IE6 for mobile? You'd think that something so hated and awful as Internet Explorer 6 (for the desktop) is something you'd avoid naming on your mobile OS. IE6 is only slightly less of a tarnished brand than Vista.

December 12, 2008 3:40 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

A story about someone being trapped in a Windows world.

www.boingboing.net/.../epilogue-austin-scho.html

There is no other word for using Windows than being trapped. You're paying the Windows tax for life.

December 12, 2008 3:41 PM
 

animositysomina said:

robertsjoe, maybe YOU pay this tax, but it's YOUR personal problem, not others'

shark47, then Wae should live in US for some time and learn the difference between socialist "free" healthcare and the real one.

December 12, 2008 3:50 PM
 

shark47 said:

Getting back on topic, lotsa, if you ignore all the snark and personal attacks, does make a good point. Apple did change the game by making a consumer focused smartphone, which caught most other companies unawares. It's been over 2 years since the iPhone was announced. Microsoft, instead of trying to sell a business focused OS to consumers, could've spent this time working on building a consumer centric OS from the scratch. If the Zune is anything to go by, I think MS would've done a great job of this. The company's current efforts are nothing more than "putting lipstick on a pig".

December 12, 2008 3:59 PM
 

shark47 said:

"You guys are hypocrites."

"And you're sexist.  ;-)"

I think "guys" here was gender neutral.

December 12, 2008 4:06 PM
 

Bink.nu said:

Microsoft officials (finally) denied this week that the company will be rolling out a Zune phone at the

December 12, 2008 4:29 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"@mikegalos - Can you provide factual evidence of that?"

I would wager the answer to that is a big fat NO!"

Ten f*scking seconds of research:

http://tinyurl.com/56tqmn

December 12, 2008 4:31 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

Great iPod web ad.

http://games.yahoo.com/

Something else for Zune and Windows Mobile to copy.

December 12, 2008 4:33 PM
 

tayme said:

@"lotsamystuff" - "Ten f*scking seconds of research:"

You do realize that the link that you posted did absolutely nothing to prove mikegalos' point, right? In fact, it came closer to proving mine....that the dollars were from state and local governments. Not only that, but $3.6 Billion is nowhere near the $14 Billion that the big 3 are now asking for...another point that mikegalos was wrong on. Thanks!

--tayme

December 12, 2008 5:11 PM
 

tayme said:

@robertsjoe - No school for a couple of days...you gotta be loving that!!!

--tayme

December 12, 2008 5:14 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"the dollars were from state and local governments. Not only that, but $3.6 Billion is nowhere near the $14 Billion"

• The government cheese tastes the same from different pantries

• That number is an estimate, and doesn't include suppliers

• Those numbers represent grants and giveaways, not loans

• 1/3 of the amount the Big 3 are asking for is substantial.

Bottom line: Government is and has been subsidizing this industry. Period.

December 12, 2008 5:23 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

While everybody can, I'm sure, come up with anecdotes to justify why their position must be right, the facts are that the US health care system is worse than Canada's.

There are two numbers that are typically used to measure health care; Average Lifespan and Infant Mortality.

Average Lifespan has the advantage of showing the effect of a whole life of medical factors but has the downside of also showing the health costs of poverty and war. Still, it's a good measure even with those factors when you're comparing countries inside similar groups (say, Western Industrials with each other or Sub-Saharan African countries with each other)

So where is the US? This bastion of "Our healthcare may be expensive but it's the best in the world"?

Macau is at number 1 at 84.33 years

Canada is at number 8 at 81.16 years

The USA is at number 46 at 78.14 years

OK. There are admitted flaws in using life expectancy. (I admitted them myself) Let's look at infant mortality. This is considered the default number for measuring health care since most societies do their best to provide good health care to pregnant women and newborn infants no matter what.

The best place to be born is Singapore with only 2.30 deaths per live birth

Canada is #23 with 5.08 deaths per live birth which is over twice Singapore's infant mortality rate

And the US is at #32 with 6.30 deaths per live birth

So, there are the actual facts. You can now go back to meaningless anecdotal discussions about your Aunt having to wait two years for bunion surgery.

(Facts from the US Central Intellegence Agency's World Fact Book - 2008 edition)

December 12, 2008 5:25 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

lotsa

Another big factor is that those numbers weren't inflation adjusted.

December 12, 2008 5:26 PM