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It's also worth noting  if you don't need the new features that HP now offers $100 in rebates on the existing EX470 and EX475 home servers making their effective price $450 and $550 respectively.

Paul, link to the press release?

Impressive that they made it work as a Time Machine target.  Will have to see reviews of that when time comes.

I'm a decent prospect for such a thing given my mixed network (which is likely to gain a Vista machine soon--either Mac Mini usually running Vista but serving as spare work machine in Mac OS X, or "pure" Vista machine).

www.mediasmartserver.net/.../review-hp-mediasmart-server-ex48

www.wegotserved.co.uk/.../hands-on-hp-mediasmart-server-ex487-part-1

Waiting for V2 based on 2008 R2.

#2 ain't so bad.

The whupping that MS took from the master, Nintendo, is.

>>U.S. sales of the PS3 fell 19% last month from a year earlier, while sales doubled for the Wii console and rose 8% for the Xbox 360, according to research firm NPD.

--

At the end of September, the Wii had a wide lead with nearly 35 million units sold since its launch in 2006 compared with about 22 million Xbox 360 consoles and 17 million PS3 machines.<<

online.wsj.com/.../SB123050978162738293.html

>>Remember Sony and Microsoft? No? Well, neither does the average Amazon customer.

According to a release sent out by the online retail giant Friday, the Nintendo Wii and all its accessories dominated video game sales during the holiday shopping rush and not one mention was made of Sony's Playstation 3 or Microsoft's Xbox 360.

--

The Wii is a direct competitor to the other consoles because it's vying for the same spending dollars that Microsoft and Sony are. To say the Wii isn't a competitor and it's not fair to compare all three consoles is ludicrous.

Say what you will about Nintendo, the Wii, and anything else the company focuses on, but one thing is clear: its hardware is dominating the video game business and Sony and Microsoft haven't been able to do anything to stop it.<<

news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-10128950-17.html

@Ocean:

go away.

@Ocean:

and take your dysfunctional updates with you:

msmvps.com/.../the-update-quot-mac-os-x-update-quot-can-t-be-installed.aspx

I kind of wonder why someone would pay that much for a 750GB server when the Atom 330 Intel motherboards cost $80US, leaving lots of buying room for the software, chassis, and storage drives.  The Atom 330 is a dual-core x64 CPU with HyperThreading and is designed for an 8W power envelope.  The only possible downside is that the Intel motherboards only stock 2 SATA connectors internally, but you could always add a PCIe card.  There are some pretty cheap PCIe cards that'll give you an extra 4 SATA 3Gbps + an eSATA or two.

The HP software looks overly bloated though, which is not uncommon for HP.  If you've ever clean booted a fresh HP PC recovery before, you know what I mean.

Waethorn

Figure about $100 for a system builder WHS license (it's $99 at NewEgg) and that leaves about $350 for building the hardware to match the older EX470 right now.

By the time you add the price of a compact case with 4 swappable drive bays, a power supply, RAM and a drive, I'd be curious to see how anybody could beat HP's pricing by much and still pay for somebody to build it.

Of course, the new model's an easier target but still...

@  Waethorn

Never owned a Mac.  I'm an XP guy.

"Figure about $100 for a system builder WHS license (it's $99 at NewEgg) and that leaves about $350 for building the hardware to match the older EX470 right now.

By the time you add the price of a compact case with 4 swappable drive bays, a power supply, RAM and a drive, I'd be curious to see how anybody could beat HP's pricing by much and still pay for somebody to build it. "

The old system is an AMD Sempron with 512MB of RAM.  Even if you COULD get that stuff in the channel still, it would probably cost [elephant-grade] peanuts.

"Of course, the new model's an easier target but still..."

That's what I was specifically looking at actually.  The new unit ships with a Celeron.  The Atom processor would seem to be a better fit considering this is a home NAS storage server and it has a lower power profile.  Also, you have to factor in that OEM parts usually have a higher defect rate and lower warranty (direct OEM parts sold from the manufacturer to HP, etc., usually have a 1 year warranty - which is based off the lifecycle & defect rate from QA testing of a specific lot....it's not rocket science how they calculate warranties on similar parts here).  Off-the-shelf or bulk system builder components from the channel come with a 3-year warranty or more.  

It's still fairly easy to build an Atom dual-core WHS server with 2GB of RAM for $600 (or $549 if you're looking at that rebate).  If the next version of WHS is based on Server 2008, I'd rather have that dual-core+HyperThreading CPU in there than a Celeron.

Waethorn,

Of course, that's assuming they're using it just for backup, sharing, remote access and web presence.

None of those need that modern a computer.

What I advise techy types is to use an old, retired computer as a WHS box. Since they can get an evaluation copy of WHS, they can make sure it works on that hardware before spending a dime and they have 120 days to decide and to be sure their old hardware is up to the task.

For non-techy types, I just tell them to buy a pre-built box like the HP.

I agree with Mike (news at 11).  Old PC for Tech person, new HP for non-Tech.

Then again, I could probably power a small town with one of my old PressHOT, P4's I have turned off in the basement.  A atom would be much GREEN'er on my power bill.

Or you could get this....

www.newegg.com/.../Product.aspx

Plus a 1TB drive....(2 for RAID1)

www.newegg.com/.../Product.aspx

And use this for remote control....(free)

secure.logmein.com/.../signup.asp

and you have 99% of WHS.

Lindy

That wouldn't even get you close to a WHS.

You'd be missing the dynamic disk allocation and disk redundancy and sparse backup and web server and network status and the add-on ecosystem.

Really, WHS is an amazingly product. To compare it to a simple NAS box is missing a huge amount of what WHS does.

Wonder if HP will use its distribution network to sell this gear to Iran, as it's done so lucratively with its line of printers.

25,000 jobs cut and using a third party distributor to beat the boycott prohibiting moving goods to a country we've labeled a terrorist state. We're so proud.

If Apple is "evil," then HP is...

To understand what Windows Home Server is all about (and why it's not just an NAS box), I'd suggest 2 of Paul's reviews and optionally 1 on the HP MediaSmart Server:

Windows Home Server Review: www.winsupersite.com/.../whs.asp

Windows Home Server Power Pack 1 Review: www.winsupersite.com/.../whs_pp1.asp

HP MediaSmart Server Review: www.winsupersite.com/.../whs_hp.asp

WHS certainly does more at more cost.  

That DLINK box is cheaper, is a basic NAS/file server, with GIGE connection, UNPNP server, Xbox 360/PS3/iTunes support/streaming, FTP server for remote access to files and will support RAID 1 for redundancy.  It has users and groups, back up software for you PC's, not that you would need that.

So for $270'ish you get all that with 1TB installed.  Add another $104 and you Mirror that TB drive.

Need more move up to WHS.

"Of course, that's assuming they're using it just for backup, sharing, remote access and web presence.

None of those need that modern a computer.

What I advise techy types is to use an old, retired computer as a WHS box. Since they can get an evaluation copy of WHS, they can make sure it works on that hardware before spending a dime and they have 120 days to decide and to be sure their old hardware is up to the task."

Tsk, tsk, Mike.  You can't buy Windows Home Server legally unless you plan on selling your computer.  Windows Home Server is only available in Direct OEM or OEM System Builder licenses.  You can't buy a retail copy of it, and the SBLA is clear that the purchase constitutes that the software can be used for the purpose of preinstallation on a computer to be resold.  I talked to the Microsoft OEM SB team about this, and they say that online resellers have already been warned that they have to take measures to inform customers that OEM software is not for consumers - not even DIY'ers.  The OEM SB website even has a whole article that DIY'ers must buy retail software from now on (ever since they changed the OEM SBLA in 2005-2006, just before Vista shipped, to say that OEM SB software has to be preinstalled on a complete system and can't just be sold with peripheral hardware or parts like it could in the past).

....Anyway, the Atom processor makes more sense for this type of system.  I'm also looking at long term too.  Who would want to run Server 2008 on a Celeron?  The messaging for partners on WHS has always been about offering decent (specifically, x64) processors in WHS boxes for the new version, because it'll only be x64.  Celerons are x64 (have been for years), but running a single-core on Server 2008 is a joke.  Also, if you can really imagine running one of those previous model HP's with the AMD Semprons with 512MB of RAM on Server 2008, it's just a laugh.  Getting a properly built System Builder machine means the system should accomodate the next version of WHS as per Microsoft's recommendations.  OEM's won't certify their hardware for future upgrades though, as it's not part of the OEM spec for WHS, as it is with the recommended path for System Builders.  System Builder hardware will often have a local optical drive, and will always have local console support.  OEM hardware can't have an optical drive or local console support either, so installing updated software would require the OEM to provide the software on disc, to be installed over a network via a workstation using PXE boot or other remote installation routine using a proprietary firmware or bootable flash RAM.  How much do you want to bet that HP won't be doing that on existing hardware?

Remember that System Builder WHS boxes are designed as a "real computer", offering the same benefits.  OEM boxes are designed as a "CE device", which can provide certain esthetic benefits, but lacks a lot of accessibility to the software.

"For non-techy types, I just tell them to buy a pre-built box like the HP."

I always recommend getting extended warranties with name brands.  That's where the cost goes up too high over my own.  I've seen too many HP systems fail after the 1 year warranty to recommend against the added warranty.  What's with the HP dv series AMD notebooks with the faulty Broadcom wireless cards anyway?!  Many of the motherboards fail in them too!  I have 2 sitting here with dead motherboards that'll cost $500 to fix from HP.  Big box stores can often have your system up to 8 weeks before outright replacing it.  HP's extended warranty service policy is 3-5 business days, or else they replace it.  HP covers door-to-door shipping on their extended warranty, and it's usually still cheaper than a big box store.

Anyway, since off-the-shelf components and most bulk OEM components in the channel offer better than 1 year warranties, I usually cover systems for 3 years anyway without added cost to either the customer, or myself.  That's where a smaller system builder can offer a better deal.  Many don't take advantage of that though.

"I could probably power a small town with one of my old PressHOT, P4's I have turned off in the basement"

I got that beat:  www.rabidhardware.net/index.php

Also, if you had a Pentium D 840 like I did, you know the Pentium 4's can't hold a candle to the heat those put out.  They'd run stock clock speeds idle at 85 degrees....CELSIUS!

Waethorn

The FAQ has it listed as: "System Builders and do-it-yourself users can acquire the software from a variety of online sources. " so it appears that WHS has a different license. (Well, that and the 120-day evaluation version which expect you to install on existing hardware)

See: www.microsoft.com/.../faq

The Windows Home Server team is excited to see the introduction of the next round of home servers from

@mike:

Read the disclaimer, which is the first line under the listing for WHS:

www.newegg.com/.../ProductList.aspx

@mike:

Your link doesn't work.

@mike:

I'm going to go with my sources on this one:  The OEM System Builder pack clearly states what I had mentioned.  If it's printed in legal-ese on the distribution package and the OEM SB site itself, I'll tend to lean towards that definition than what is printed on a FAQ page.

waethorn

Odd, I did a copy/paste from the address bar on the page...

www.microsoft.com/.../faq.mspx

which is to www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/windowshomeserver/faq.mspx (hopefully pulling the prefix will make it readable if not an active link)

As for the System Builder pack at NewEgg having the generic System Builder disclaimer, I notice that Buy.com and Tiger Direct both offer the OEM (not system builder) version but not as cheaply as NewEgg and don't have that disclaimer shown.

IANAL but the fact that the 120-day eval copy expressly expects you to upgrade your eval copy with a full copy with a license key and doesn't have a system builder requirements sure sounds to me like there's a non-system builder version without those requirements. (Well, that and the marketing material that says you can)

" I notice that Buy.com and Tiger Direct both offer the OEM (not system builder)"

OEM System Builder software is the only software a System Builder (not consumer) can buy outside of getting gold master Direct OEM copies from Microsoft through the Certified Partner channels.

Some stores interchange the terms.  Microsoft distinguishes "OEM System Builders" from "OEM's/Direct OEM's" by way of how they purchase the software, and both have different rights.  You won't find Direct OEM software for sale though.  I'd imagine Microsoft Legal would get into a sh*t fit if they found out someone was.

What Tiger Direct and Buy.com offer is OEM System Builder software.

And I don't enforce Microsoft's policies.  I just read them and abide by them.  Tiger Direct is one of the stores that Microsoft knows about, and although the license agreement is in plain English, the legal department hasn't gone after these companies.  The OEM SB team is well aware of them and that they abuse the license agreement by selling to the general public.  Legal is more interested in going after companies that are pirating or counterfeiting software than anything else.

Ever talk to Matt Davis?

"the fact that the 120-day eval copy expressly expects you to upgrade your eval copy with a full copy"

Nowhere does it mention that in the installer or on the page.  The page even says that it just expires after 120 days.  I don't see anywhere on the trial download page where it says you can purchase a license to unlock it.

"sounds to me like there's a non-system builder version without those requirements"

I'd like to know what SKU that is....

"and the marketing material that says you can"

WHERE?!?

Everywhere I look, they're mentioning partner hardware instead.

And then there's this:

"How much does Windows Home Server cost?  

Windows Home Server ships as an integrated hardware and software solution."

Waethorn

The 120-day eval upgrade info is in the help files installed on the eval copy where it discusses how to do the upgrade to full.

@mike:

This pretty much sums it up:

"Definitions.

a. “Customer System” means a fully assembled computer system that includes a CPU, a motherboard, a power supply, an internally mounted NAND or revolving magnetic-based hard drive, and a case.

b. “Distribution” and “distribute” mean the point in time when a Customer System leaves your control.

....

2. Authorized Distribution and Acceptance. To distribute the Software or Hardware in this Pack, you must be a System Builder and accept this license. “System Builder” means an original equipment manufacturer, an assembler, a refurbisher, or a software pre-installer that **sells the Customer System(s) to a third party.**"

www.microsoft.com/.../sblicense

Windows Home Server OEM SB packs fall under that license agreement as indicated on the packaging.

....and there's also the OPK preinstallation requirement too, which I didn't mention.

From a posting by Charlie Kindel (The GM of Windows Home Server) on the Windows Home Server blog:

blogs.technet.com/.../why-raid-is-not-a-consumer-technology.aspx

-------------------

Did you know you can get a free evaluation copy of Windows Home Server by going here? For many geographies we'll ship it to you for free as well. Install it on some old computer (the resource requirements are pretty meager; an old PIII with 512MB of RAM will work great) and throw a bunch of hard drives at it to see just how great a job it does.

Or skip the "free crack" step and just dive in and buy an OEM product.

-cek

-------------------

"Or skip the "free crack" step and just dive in and buy an OEM product."

When does Microsoft ever publicly refer to their own OEM System Builder software?  It just doesn't happen.  They only mention it to partners.

He means partner OEM hardware.  The link that that line goes to only has hardware resellers.  Nowhere do they link to an OEM SB page.

Mike, if you really want to debate this, you should honestly take up this quarrel with Microsoft Legal.  The package clearly indicates the license agreement, as does all OEM System Builder software.  I make it a point to be knowledgeable on all licensing materials provided by the company.  The legal agreement is what stands in my book.

Now, if Microsoft sells full license upgrades from the eval versions directly to customers, I was not aware of that.  So far, I have only seem OEM System Builder packs for sale though, and even the eval copies are vague, in that they just say to enter in a product key from a fully-licensed package as seen here:

blog.codesleuth.co.uk/.../whs_no_upgrade.jpg

....again, I refer you to the license agreement.

Also, I should point out the Microsoft Authorized Distributor License Agreement, which those companies would also be breaching....

After checking the OEM SB website, I've also noticed that they now have a software solution for System Builders to create their own recovery hard drive option for customers.  Previously, you had to have programming skills or 3rd-party software licensing to perform that job.  It's pretty simple (not really!).  You perform the standard Windows Recovery Environment (what comes up if you go to the "Repair your computer" option from a Vista DVD) installation in a separate partition on the hard drive, create the failover scripts, create the SysPrep option that hides the failover partition, etc., but now they include a precompiled Visual C++ app that gives you an OEM-esque option for WinRE to restore a factory image with only a couple of clicks.  Creating a WIM image is pretty simple (when you know how), and is necessary when creating duplicates of systems, but now you can put a copy of it on the system for the customer so they can reinstall with all the System Builder customizations.  System Builders aren't allowed to create customized optical disc media, as they have to include only an OEM SB copy of Windows.  So if a customer reinstalls Windows from the installation disc, they won't have any of the added software that the SB includes with the system, nor will they have preloaded drivers already up and running.  The new hard drive recovery option that Microsoft provides saves money from licensing something like Norton Ghost or SoftThinks PC Angel software, and gives the customer a better experience when they want to format, so it's a welcome addition.  

I welcome Windows 7's new feature that installs Windows RE by default.  The instructions for creating a Windows RE failover partition for Windows Vista is about 30 pages long.  I'm curious to see how you can customize the WinRE partition with the new OPK though.

So, can I purchase a OEM System Builder copy and install it on a homebuilt rig, then "sell" it to my wife or daughter? I would meet the requirement of providing support...

--tayme

It's so much fun watching "mikegalos" and Wae have their little lover's spat. Next thing you know, they'll be arguing over who gets the dishes.

lotsa

Nah. We both agree that Windows Home Server is a fantastic product that no home should be without.

"So, can I purchase a OEM System Builder copy and install it on a homebuilt rig, then "sell" it to my wife or daughter?"

That depends.  Are you going to install it using the OPK?  Are you not using it for your own use?  Are you making a profit from the PC, or barring that, selling to a charitable organization, as well as filing it under COGS as part of your business expenses?

I don't think that a requirement is to use the OEM Preinstallation Kit. Of course, based on the pingback on yesterdays other post; maybe you were talking about an ovulation predictor kit....

--tayme