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Apple Tax 2.0

With Macworld opening tomorrow, Microsoft has begun discussing the “Apple Tax” again. The company last brought up this concept in October, just before Apple released more-expensive-than-the-previous-version MacBook and MacBook Pro models, which was good timing. And indeed, my initial take on this was that Microsoft was on to something. I wrote about this in a WinInfo article back in October.

Now, a few months later, Microsoft is again discussing the Apple Tax. And while I know a significant number of people will simply take offense to this for whatever reason, I feel even more strongly than before that Microsoft is right. Here’s an article going out in WinInfo tomorrow:

On Eve of Macworld, Microsoft Again Highlights 'Apple Tax'

With the economy in freefall, Microsoft this week continued its discussion of the "Apple Tax," what it says are the additional costs associated with using the Mac platform instead of a Windows-based PC. According to the company, the severity of the Apple Tax has only gotten worse in the past few months, as Apple has released expensive new Macs despite ever-worsening economic conditions. The discussion is occurring the day before Apple opens its Macworld trade show in San Francisco.

"Windows is more compatible than the Mac, but it's also more compatible with today's budgets," Microsoft Corporate Vice President of Windows Consumer Marketing Brad Brooks told me in a briefing on Monday. "Around the globe, people need to balance the interests they have with the realities of the economy. Windows PCs are a better value than Macs, and that's true at every price point."

Microsoft first began discussing the Apple Tax concept in October, just before Apple shipped new Macbook notebook computers that were even more expensive than their predecessors, a curious move given the economy. At the time, much of the discuss was around the cost of switching, comparisons of Macs and PCs at different price points, and the lack of innovative new hardware features. These issues continue to this day, Brooks pointed out. But the problem is exacerbated by the value of Windows, Apple's continued insistence on only serving the high end of the market, and the design aesthetics of Apple hardware, which limits choice.

"Apple fans like to say that the company is like the BMW of the PC world," Brooks said. "Fair enough. But we're Toyota, and we have the Corolla on the low-end and Lexus on the high-end. And both offer tremendous value across the board."

"Microsoft has been delivering low cost technology to the masses for over 30 years," he continued. "And we're going to push this concept of 'Life Without Walls' going forward and explain to people the value they get when they run Windows on the PC, on the Internet, and on their phones." Brooks noted that the upcoming Consumer Electronics Show (CES) in Las Vegas was an obvious time for make this renewed push for Windows, including Windows Vista and 7 on the PC, Windows Live on the Internet, and Windows Mobile on phones.

"Look, the Apple Tax gap is widening, not shrinking," Brooks said. "And it plays out in so many different ways. There is the upfront cost of the machines, the lack of technology innovation, the compatibility of the devices, the lack of form factor choices, and so much more. The gap has never been greater." Brooks said that Apple machines were luxury items while PCs happy straddle the gap between utility and luxury. "You can get even more technology in Windows at the same price point than you can with a Mac than you could as recently as October," he added.

Brooks hinted that PC users should stay tuned to Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer's CES keynote address on Wednesday evening. "Let's just say it's going to be an interesting talk," he told me.

And, for completeness sake, some Microsoft charts highlighting some examples of the Apple Tax. Enjoy.

Comments

 

RunTimeError said:

"Allow me to make a confession that may surprise you. I've been a Mac fan my entire life."

Paul Thurrott.

April 14, 2005

January 5, 2009 7:02 PM
 

anothergeek said:

Bring on the Apple trolls.

January 5, 2009 7:06 PM
 

Lindy said:

"Around the globe, people need to balance the interests they have with the realities of the economy."

Ok so the economy sucks, but I am doing just fine (so far), so I should not buy what I want with MY money even if I can afford it?  I should buy what they think I should buy because they say so or they are making me feel guilty about wanting something different?

Wow did Josef Stalin take over Microsoft?  Is this part of the 300 million extra spent on advertising???

I love how they drop out this list of hardware, most of which will probably be old.....um tomorrow after Apple announcements.  

Lets just take that iMac in the example, who determines which is better?  I never have used media slots on any computer even when I had them, I just use a USB cable.  However I might like the faster CPU or better video card instead.  Maybe firewire 800 would make my day?

I should just move to Cuba so that someone else can make all of my choices for me.

January 5, 2009 7:06 PM
 

Lindy said:

@RunTimeError that was good.  Nothing better than his own words.

January 5, 2009 7:08 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

I love the line "Microsoft is right". Translated "the company that butters my bread is right"

January 5, 2009 7:09 PM
 

danieldecker said:

Utterly asinine.

January 5, 2009 7:15 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

Ahh a true believer blog.wired.com/.../teenage-podcast.html

Gotta love it!

January 5, 2009 7:16 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

Instead of posting about CES you're still obsessed with Apple?

January 5, 2009 7:18 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

"Allow me to make a confession that may surprise you. I've been a Mac fan my entire life."

Paul Thurrott.

April 14, 2005

And even with Paul's admitted Mac bias, the Apple fanatics still think Paul's biased AGAINST Apple because he doesn't say their products are perfect.

Thanks for making the point clearer, RTE.

January 5, 2009 7:19 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

It'll be interesting to see how much or little those charts change after the keynotes over the next two days.

January 5, 2009 7:20 PM
 

jvd897 said:

@"I've been a Mac fan my entire life"

What does that have to do with anything? Isn't it possible to like Mac products while at the same time disliking Apple's business choices?

Apple fanatics, take what you can get.

January 5, 2009 7:24 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

FYI: For those who might have been confused by robertsjoe's confused posting...

MacWorld Expo opened today (Keynote with Phil Schiller tomorrow at 9:00AM PST - not online but liveblogged by most Mac fansites)

CES opens Thursday (pre-show Keynote with Steve Balmer and Robbie Bach Wednesday night  at 6:30PM PST - viewable live at www.microsoft.com/.../default.mspx)

January 5, 2009 7:33 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

He may be a Mac fan, but he's a Microsoft fanboy.

January 5, 2009 7:34 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

And, for all the Mac heads who keep posting their content-free revulsion at somebody actually doing fashion review of their emperor's new clothes, please, let us know which of these taxes is false and document why:

The upfront cost of the machines

The lack of technology innovation

The compatibility of the devices

The lack of form factor choices

And that's not even discussing the synergy of Window combined with Windows Live combined with Windows Mobile.

January 5, 2009 7:40 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos: It will also be interesting how much more blue covers this chart in 2009.

i38.tinypic.com/35bti6c.png

January 5, 2009 7:43 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos: "Windows Live combined with Windows Mobile."

Please, don't try and ask a serious question and mention Windows Mobile and Windows Live in the same lot. That's funny, but sad at the same time.

January 5, 2009 7:44 PM
 

subzerohitman721 said:

Wow, that must have stung. The trolls are out enmass today. I think Microsoft has a good point. The technologies that underline Apple's hardware has been dropping steadily in price for years. Yet all we've seen from Apple lately is "New" devices with more cash up front. Lets go though this argument.

How in the heck can you charge more when memory, hard drives, motherboards, processors, power supplies, and displays have been falling for years? It doesn't make sense.

Even if you were to point out supply and demand, Apple has 9% of the U.S. market and almost 4% world wide. Yet there are no Mac shortages anywhere in the world. The increased demand hasn't impacted the supply, so why are the prices on Mac's going up?

Then you have the lack of form factors as sited in the article. The Mac Mini is their only desktop form. The Mac Pro is the only Tower. There are no mini-Tower form fators. Unlike the Microsoft side, where there's plenty of forms, upgradeability, and options to boot.

Software? Microsoft wins that in spades. There are still software thats unavailable on the Mac including games. There are still internet services that are still incompatable with Mac because of the lack of software support. Infact, it was thanks to Microsoft adding Mac support for Silverlight, that Mac users can now use the "Watch Instantly" feature by Netflix. This is stuff that Culpertino should have fixed a long time ago.

So we have cheaper hardware, demand not outstripping the supply, limited form factors, and software incompatability. These would be reasons to lower your price not increase them.

The bottom line, MIcrosoft has a legit argument on the Apple tax. I know the Mac Fanatic will come and attack me personally instead of countering the argument. The end result is that the artificial inflation of Apple PC prices is a credible counterattack to the rise of Apple.

As for the argument that you can afford it? If you make the cash, good for you. Unfortunately for many world wide, credit has been shut off. People are living way beyond their means. Most people don't have sufficient reserve savings incase things go wrong. Then there is the obvious question. If a Windows/Linux PC is worth X and Mac is worth Y, where Y is a value $300 to $500 more than X, don't it beg the question that somebody is completely ripping you off? How is that fair for your hard earned cash, that someone is demanding more from you just for a shiny logo and molded plastic?

January 5, 2009 7:45 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos: You're still going on about how 12 versions of Vista 1, 16 of Office and 32 of SQL Serve is better? And you wonder why Microsoft doesn't get positive press? That's one reason.

January 5, 2009 7:46 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@subzerohitman721: stung? How can it sting when Apple is right and Microsoft is clearly (always) wrong?

January 5, 2009 7:53 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Subzero

Yeah, apparently they don't really have an answer so they're trying to change the subject and attacking the messengers.

Still, it'll be an interesting week with two major keynotes. (Especially now that we know that the Jobs keynote was cancelled due to health reasons and not just downplaying a lack of anything interesting to show combined with the "Let's just say it's going to be an interesting talk"  teaser for the Ballmer/Bach keynote)

January 5, 2009 7:54 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos: Lack of technology innovation? This from MS? They are Xerox, man! Wake up to yourself. They copy.

January 5, 2009 7:56 PM
 

thingy123 said:

Funny how they don't compare the Mac Pro to another dual-2.8 GHz Xeon processor workstation, which *start* at at least 3 grand anywhere else.

And the Mac mini and iMac examples are going to be out-of-date by the end of tomorrow's keynote.

Microsoft does have a good point but, as usual, their marketing is complete incompetent.  I mean, why did they choose such terrible examples?  A $1200 MacBook against a $700 Dell would illustrate their point better and wouldn't be rendered obsolete by the Apple keynote speech tomorrow.

January 5, 2009 8:01 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@mikegalos: Those points you listed are not things that make Microsoft "better" than anyone else. They are methods they used to become a monopoly. Convicted of it, don't forget. Those are methods used to become a monopoly. Shall I say it again so you get it? They are not points of superiority over anyone else.

January 5, 2009 8:02 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

Apple introduces the Apple Wheel www.theonion.com/.../apple_introduces_revolutionary

Microsoft expected to announce a copy soon.

January 5, 2009 8:04 PM
 

derdf said:

I've been trying to read through the Microsoft charts. I don't understand why didn't they mention the above-average built-in speakers inside the iMac, and how they can use i7/C2D processors to compare to the Xeon processors.

I mean it's fair to bash the Mac mini, because they haven't been updated for years. But is it possible to use an Intel X3100 to replace an Radeon HD 2400 XT on any given 3D games money can buy?

Come on, Microsoft. Macs are not the cheapest machine on earth, but let's do comparison in a fairer and more meaningful way.

--Raphael CHAN

http://rdf.nxstg.com/

January 5, 2009 8:07 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

I'm really amused by all of the "It's all going to change tomorrow" postings by the Mac heads. They really do think that suddenly Macs will be superpowerful machines in all kinds of form factors and competitively priced.

That's so cute.

The interesting question is whether Schiller can generate the Jobs' Reality Distortion Field well enough to keep the Mac faithful from noticing the usual missing features and higher prices. With Jobs doing the keynote, reality usually doesn't hit until the next day or at worst late afternoon.

January 5, 2009 8:08 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

Don't forget to also mention the Microsoft End User Virus Tax. That they need to run anti-virus, anti-spyware, anti-rootkit software. That it slows down their system. Wastes time and money needing to take care of those things. That should something sneak by that it can hose your Windows box.

Also mention that it's not a concern for OS X or Linux users.

January 5, 2009 8:11 PM
 

BizGeek » Blog Archive » Apple Tax vs. Cost of Windows said:

Pingback from  BizGeek  » Blog Archive   » Apple Tax vs. Cost of Windows

January 5, 2009 8:15 PM
 

Master3 said:

"And, for all the Mac heads who keep posting their content-free revulsion at somebody actually doing fashion review of their emperor's new clothes, please, let us know which of these taxes is false and document why:"

Does it really matter at this point?

This has already descended into a Paul is a b@stard, This site sucks, post irrelevant links, troll-a-thon.

All we need is for Ocean to scream his indignation, and 233 posts leading to a discussion of mid-east policy, for this great cluster-o-frack to be complete

January 5, 2009 8:16 PM
 

Master3 said:

"Don't forget to also mention the Microsoft End User Virus Tax. That they need to run anti-virus, anti-spyware, anti-rootkit software. That it slows down their system."

Doesn't slow down mine. Then again I dont do things that make me have to worry about them to begin with. And besides those programs are 99% free, so you are out of 0 dollars.

"Also mention that it's not a concern for OS X or Linux users.

"

Funny how an Issue of a Linux magazine I saw recently was all about security issues with the OS, and there are similar articles for Macs as well. If no worry, then why bother writing that stuff?

But hey, if they want to be stupid and be careless with their machines because they think they are 100% safe behind a rand name, then whatever.

January 5, 2009 8:21 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

OK, to be totally fair, the MacBook Wheel (see link posted by robertsjoe, above) is the epitome of the Steve Jobs/Apple design philosophy and its fans both in and out of the media.

January 5, 2009 8:23 PM
 

weedmonk said:

Brace yourselves. The dinner bell has been wrung across the iWebitubes and the hordes are a coming.

Wonder if this will be addressed in the Shill-note tomorrow.

January 5, 2009 8:27 PM
 

johnpapola said:

This whole debate is ridiculous.  Microsoft has every right to point out the price differential.  Bring it on.  If people pay for a product, then it's fairly priced.  Better than "fair", in fact.  It's the market price.  So far, despite all naysaying by Paul and others about the new macbooks being a poor value, they appear to be selling great.

If demand sags and the company is forced to cut the price, they obviously do so or risk shrinking their business.

It's not like it's hard to determine the price comparison between Macs and PCs.  Consumers aren't stupid.  Frankly, I find it strange that Microsoft would even feel the need to point it out repeatedly, as if it isn't obvious to even Best Buy shopper in America.  Perhaps it's because Apple's marketshare continues to climb despite every product and marketing effort Redmond tries.

Whatever.  Windows 7 looks to be taking more design cues from Apple and generally improving, so the competition is very healthy.  Everyone wins.

January 5, 2009 8:31 PM
 

Delmont said:

Master3:

"All we need is for Ocean to scream his indignation, and 233 posts leading to a discussion of mid-east policy, for this great cluster-o-frack to be complete"

LOL LOL

January 5, 2009 8:32 PM
 

johnpapola said:

Oh, and that Mac Pro comparison is completely misleading if not outright dishonest.  The Mac Pro is a Xeon-powered workstation and has long been cheaper than comparable 8-core machines by sometimes $1500 or more.  But I guess it's only a lie when Apple is does it, right?

January 5, 2009 8:34 PM
 

Julzz said:

Macs To me Are Rip Off.

a 1gb machine for 1599 AUD.

While i can get a Super Pc with 5gb for that much.

Even Microsoft 88% windows 7 will gain them market share back. People will soon know macs are ripped off.

January 5, 2009 8:36 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

"If people pay for a product, then it's fairly priced. "

Both P.T. Barnum and S.P. Jobs find people who believe that a real comfort...

January 5, 2009 8:37 PM
 

johnpapola said:

Actually, Mike, it's called "economics".

January 5, 2009 8:41 PM
 

volwrath said:

@johnpapola.: not saying you are correct, but if you are, whats good for the goose is good for the gander.  

I cant tell you how many people tell me vista is aweful, but they don't actually run it.  The fact is the apple ads have been misleading for a long time.

January 5, 2009 8:44 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Actually, John, there's a Mac user born every minute.

January 5, 2009 8:44 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@jullz: "While i can get a Super Pc with 5gb for that much."

But it's running Windows. That's the poison in the soup.

January 5, 2009 8:49 PM
 

Lindy said:

"I'm really amused by all of the "It's all going to change tomorrow" postings by the Mac heads. They really do think that suddenly Macs will be superpowerful machines in all kinds of form factors and competitively priced."

Oh I dont know Mike, maybe because all three of the Mac's in the charts above are rumored to be getting updates, in less than 24hrs???  Call me crazy but that is probably why people are saying that????  The rumors of the Mini and iMac are pretty strong, posted by non-apples fanboy sites as well.  The Mac Pro not as much but still they are there.  Oh I guess we will see if you prediction that the new mini wont be user upgradeable (memory/hardrive) tomorrow.

I wonder why MS does not compare say this Dell that is a true workstation with 2-Xeons quad cores, 2.0ghz, with 1gig of ram....

configure.us.dell.com/.../config.aspx

To this Mac Pro with 2-Xeon quad cores at 2.8ghz with 2gig of RAM.

store.apple.com/.../A

You know workstation to workstation.  I know it makes to much sense, and if you upgrade the Dell to 2.8ghz Xeons the price goes higher than Apple.....is that Dell or Windows Tax?  Subzero does that not reply directly to your questions?

"If a Windows/Linux PC is worth X and Mac is worth Y, where Y is a value $300 to $500 more than X, don't it beg the question that somebody is completely ripping you off? How is that fair for your hard earned cash, that someone is demanding more from you just for a shiny logo and molded plastic?"

Ripping you off?  What if you think Leopard is better than Vista?  What if you like the fact that you dont have to deal with virus problems ( I removed "AntiVirus 2009" from a Vista PC today, that belonged to a friend).  What if you take comfort in the fact that you OS maker, is your PC maker as well and there are not driver issues with your OS and computer.  If that stuff concerns you then I bet you dont feel like you getting ripped off.

January 5, 2009 8:50 PM
 

tayme said:

I tend to agree with the people saying that if people are willing to pay a price for something, then so be it. In fact, I have 2 Macs in my house, as well as several other PC's running various Windows and Linux versions. What I find hilarious though is when trolls like robertsjoe continue to come here spewing the same old crap over and over again. Talk about a broke record. Then he has the nads to act indignant when others call him out on it. Enjoy yourself tomorrow in school robertsjoe. Maybe you can watch the keynote in the library.

--tayme

January 5, 2009 8:50 PM
 

shark47 said:

Isn't this Apple Tax argument getting old?

Microsoft needs to stop being childish about this.

Man, is robertsjoe annoying!

January 5, 2009 8:54 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@tayme: "What I find hilarious though is when trolls like robertsjoe continue to come here spewing the same old crap over and over again. Talk about a broke record. Then he has the nads to act indignant when others call him out on it. Enjoy yourself tomorrow in school robertsjoe."

"Spewing same old crap"? You can't complain. You, mike, others and the blog do the same. It all goes around. Pot calling the kettle black there.

January 5, 2009 8:55 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

Saw an old man shopping for anti-virus software at a local store the other day. Felt sorry for him. Sorry that he has to deal with that crap because he's been conned in to Microsoft tax (Windows).

January 5, 2009 8:56 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

To get the truth and a more balanced view of the world, especially things MSFT.. check out some cool sites:

www.msboycott.com/.../a-e.shtml

www.msboycott.com/.../f-n.shtml

www.msboycott.com/.../o-z.shtml

http://borgwatch.blogspot.com/

http://www.msfree.com/

Plenty out there. The truth is out there.

January 5, 2009 8:59 PM
 

subzerohitman721 said:

@Lindy,

I can find workstations that do cost a whole lot less than Mac workstations and get the job done. Just open any flyer from Microcenter that sells business class workstations and the sticker price is obvious.

As for Viruses, since I've purchased my machine in June 2007, I've not had one single viral infection on my Vista system. PERIOD. Same with my father's machine, same with my brother's notebook, and same with several of my friends running Vista. Just because code writers aren't targeting Mac, doesn't mean that will stay constant. Eventually, they are going to take notice and then you'll wish you heeded our warnings.

People get viruses mostly these days because they go on sites that are tainted. Macs are just as vulnerable to these kids of problems as Windows. The over 250 patches in 2008 for Leopard alone should have every Mac user screaming at Culpertino for a security refresh. You guys are being delusional at best, by saying its better and you don't need anti-virus. Its simply a matter of time before some virus writer outthere figures it out. But spewing the lies that Macs are completely invulnerable is BS.

I don't buy Dell's but the proof is clear. You can built a similar system for less. As for John's argument about this argument being "ridiculous", I think he's 100% wrong. A Mac Pro Tower has 8 cores, but Leopard isn't even coded to take full advantage of all 8 cores. So why sell a system in which the OS can't even use the hardware right? Its overkill and people purchasing that tower are being ripped off. Explain the logic of having 8 cores but the OS give no performance enhancement? This was proven by benchmark testing and yet you guys call this "value"? When a quad core Intel running Vista or Windows Server 2008 and Mac Pro running 8 cores have almost the same performance results?

January 5, 2009 9:16 PM
 

tayme said:

@robertsjoe - I suggest that you take a step back and read some of my previous posts. I have had these same types of discussions with mikegalos and Waethorn as well. For you to say that I am a MS fanboy is total BS, and you know it. I think that this perceived OS War is a load and those that are as blinded by brand loyalty as you, Ocean, mikegalos, Waethorn, and others are the true losers.

Can you tell me what it is about Windows Mobile that you don't like. I just bought a Samsung Omnia running WinMo 6.1 Pro and then I skinned it with spb Mobile Shell. I didn't have to, but I wanted to. MS gives me the option of doing this. The closest that you can come to that on an iPhone is decals and wallpaper. The Omnia outperforms the iPhone by a long shot as well. From the number of apps to the FM Radio to the Opera browser. Better in every way. Of course, you wouldn't know...you are in the basement on daddy's iMac and too blinded by Steve Jobs' aura to even know the first thing about either one.

So, like I said...enjoy your day at school tomorrow. Make sure that you find some time to get in front of a library PC to watch the MacWorld keynote. Of course, *IF* Apple sticks to its word and Jobs doesn't show up and they truly pull out of MacWorld, you and the rest of the Macinbots will be saing how lame keynotes and trade shows are at this time next year...kind of like how you all changed your tune about PowerPC vs. Intel a few years ago.

--tayme

January 5, 2009 9:21 PM
 

SandmanX82 said:

@Lindy

"I should buy what they think I should buy because they say so or they are making me feel guilty about wanting something different?"

Of course not, buy whatever the hell you want. It's just funny that you talk about what others decide you should want, when Apple decided I shouldn't want an FM tuner in my iPod or that in 2009 my mom still doesn't want a damn card reader in her computer and instead has to search for a USB cord all the time.

"I love how they drop out this list of hardware, most of which will probably be old.....um tomorrow after Apple announcements."

What does that matter?  If I were to have bought a Mac a month ago, a week ago, or TODAY even, that chart would reflect the comparison.

January 5, 2009 9:50 PM
 

Lindy said:

@SandmanX82 you prove my point.  NO ONE told you had to buy a iPod.  Buy a Zune if you want a FM tuner.  

You dont see some Apple exec spouting off that communist sh!t about "Around the globe, people need to balance the interests they have with the realities of the economy."  Cry me a freaking river I live in the US not mainland China.  If its on the shelf, and I have the money I buy what I want.

Maybe there is some hidden message in the "Zune Social".

January 5, 2009 10:03 PM
 

johnpapola said:

All's fair in love, war and competition.  Microsoft can squawk about Apple taxes. It's fine.  People that see value in OSX and iLife and great looking, well made computers aren't stupid for buying them.  

I'm happy to see that Microsoft taking Apple's competition so seriously.  They're clearly obsessed with Apple, and that's good.  The competition is great for the industry.

@subzero

"A Mac Pro Tower has 8 cores, but Leopard isn't even coded to take full advantage of all 8 cores. "

Or... Apple makes amazing, aggressively priced professional software (which is thousands less than Avid) that all ships with grid computing for multi-proc and multi-machine rendering.  My video encodes hit all 8 cores and scream on my Mac Pro thanks to Xgrid and Qmaster.  Than there is the multi-tasking.  Running an After Effects render than continuing to edit 10bit, 1080p video with no slowdown is worth every single nickel and, again, hit's all 8 cores and loves all 9gb of RAM.

The Mac Pro is aimed at professionals (hence the name) and it serves us very very well.  Leopard and Final Cut leverage the power beautifully and I expect the next round of updates to take my existing system even farther.  And since content creation is becoming the main driver of computing power needs (with gaming moving fully to consoles), I think Apple's software in this arena is more valuable than just the pro media niche.

So you're just 100% dead wrong.  No offense.  Most people don't need 8 cores, which is why most consumers are buy notebooks.  Towers are a dying breed in mainstream computing.

January 5, 2009 10:06 PM
 

SandmanX82 said:

"You dont see some Apple exec spouting off that communist sh!t about..."

No, you're right.  Instead they tell me why NOT to buy a Vista computer.  I'd go and maybe buy a Mac, but from those commercials, you'd never know a damn thing about them because they're too busy telling you everything under the sun about PCs.

January 5, 2009 10:07 PM
 

SandmanX82 said:

PS.  You guys like to talk about Paul being imbalanced with his articles...yet you've gone so far as to say that Microsoft telling people to buy Windows is reminiscent  of communism....hysterical!

Please people, let's get some perspective here.

January 5, 2009 10:09 PM
 

SandmanX82 said:

"...which is thousands less than Avid"

And the rendering in Render Cut Pro tells the story as to why.  Or is it its clearly superior media management?

January 5, 2009 10:12 PM
 

SandmanX82 said:

Also, it's not thousands less.  It's $1200 less.

January 5, 2009 10:15 PM
 

johnpapola said:

I 100% agree with sandman.  Microsoft is not evil and certainly not comparable to the great evils of the state and communism.  They are a very successful company that has largely earned their success.  For years Microsoft worked and developed and competed with very little attention paid to the true evil in Washington, DC.  Then, their competitors that couldn't cut it decided to put more energy into lobbying than product development and got Uncle Ogre, I mean, Sam to waste everyone's time for decade.  Now the company has to watch it's back from meddling federal hacks.

Bill Gates is a great person and his company has done tremendous good.  

All that said, I obviously think Apple makes a better operating system for most people and their design philosophy and hardware/software integration delivers a superior experience.  Every consumer survey continues to support that as a statement that is broadly shared if not indisputable fact.

So bring it on, Microsoft.  I welcome it.  And if Apple lowers their prices due to competition, that'd be great too.  But they shouldn't do it to chase market share at the expense of profit and sustainability.  That's the exact strategy that put Dell in a rut.

January 5, 2009 10:20 PM
 

SandmanX82 said:

"Every consumer survey continues to support that as a statement that is broadly shared if not indisputable fact."

I'd say that for the most part (notice "most" part), people who buy Macs over PCs are already Mac fanboys to some extent and will love it regardless.  And if you're not already a fanboy...well if you just spent twice as much as the comparable PC, wouldn't you be inclined to make yourself believe you're receiving a superior experience? :)~

(by the way, I'm joking around so don't get your panties in a bunch)

But honestly, my wife has a Mac, I used to use Macs at work all the time...I honestly can't say I've ever "experienced" all the apparent greatness that is a Mac.  It's no different to me than any other computer, and that "superior experience" talk is all just marketing garbage in my eyes.  But maybe that's because I've never had a single problem (that wasn't my own fault...like accidentally erasing my hard drive) with my XP or Vista computers.

January 5, 2009 10:28 PM
 

DRWAM said:

I found that a base model 17 in MBP cost around $1000 than an equivalent HP laptop. but the Xeon workstations were not correctly comparable as the MS version was Core 2, not Xeon. Check Dell and you'll find that a comparable Xeon WS cost more, and HP is pretty similar. So whoever wrote the above data, is a LIAR!:)

Still my $400 Vista laptop works pretty darn good. I can play a DVD and surf the web or play on line games at the same time, while I had Word open at the same time, all with only 2GB of RAM. Waethorn was correct when saying that bumping the 32 bit up to 4GB of AM won't give a noticeable increase in performance. It's cheapo low WS LCD looks BU-T-Ful in glossy. I'd buy another. It really runs Vista well....all for $400 !

January 5, 2009 10:30 PM
 

shark47 said:

Oh lindy, if it's not robertsjoe, it's you behaving like robertsjoe. At least we don't have Oceans OT posts about Wii and Gruber.

Communism? Why not compare MS to something even worse? Come on, you can do it. You've been dying to do it.

January 5, 2009 10:31 PM
 

Lindy said:

@SubZero...."Macs are just as vulnerable to these kids of problems as Windows."  Not when I see them trying to run .exe files.  I agree that some day Mac's will get hit.  That said if you were a Mac user for the last 10 years or more, you did not have to spend a dime on AV software.  Joe PC users that is not running pirate versions of AV probably spent around $39 a year....or more for the last 10 years.  Unless they know someone in IT that loaded AVG or something else free, but Joe BestBuy user is probably running some super intrusive package like Nortan Super Protect Me/take my money Center software. Who is delusional?

Find me a Dell workstation (the chart used Dell) that has dual CPU sockets and can take more than 16gig of RAM that cost significantly less??????

"but Leopard isn't even coded to take full advantage of all 8 cores"  Proof?  Links?  Are you sure its not the applications that cant use them?  Some can some cant.  www.macworld.com/.../macproeight28.html

"The over 250 patches in 2008 for Leopard alone should have every Mac user screaming at Culpertino for a security refresh"  Define that.  How many files were replaced or patched, what was the total size of the code.  You have no idea do you?  Your spouting a number that looks good to you.

How many did Windows have this year?  I know we patched every month at work....plus a few out of cycle patches at work.  I just installed Windows 2008 on a new server Friday and it wanted 33 patches at 110meg and its not even a year old.  I applied SP1 to an Exchange 2007 server recently.  The download for SP1 was 800meg and it expanded out to 1.3gig before I could run the update on Exchange 2007.  I mean WTF 1.3gig...did SP1 replace the whole dam program?

January 5, 2009 10:33 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

And, yet, the emperor's clothes remain the same...

January 5, 2009 10:35 PM
 

johnpapola said:

@sandman,

Honestly, the best thing I can say about the mac is that when I was a PC user (Win2000 and prior) I was the tech go-to guy for my family and was constantly getting called.  Now my whole family on both sides has switched and I never hear anything but how much they love the machines and how much easier and more reliable they are.  Now, vista may be much better.  I don't know.  For me, as a power user, there are hundreds of reasons why I prefer the mac.  The most important are software (Final Cut, Aperture, Shake) as well as the excellent third party app quality.

And I've always been able to sell my machines on ebay at great prices that more than made up for the price differences if there were any.  Windows is fine.  If you like it, great.  As a former hardcore windows PC guy, I'm never going back.

January 5, 2009 10:38 PM
 

SandmanX82 said:

"Joe BestBuy user is probably running some super intrusive package like Nortan Super Protect Me/take my money Center software. "

In your own words..."NO ONE told you had to buy a iPod."...or in this case, AV software.  If someone doesn't use one of the myriads of free AV software, who's fault is that?  Microsofts?

January 5, 2009 10:39 PM
 

SandmanX82 said:

@johnpapola

I can respect that.  If you see better value or are happier with Mac, I say go for it.  I talked my mom and dad into getting a macbook because I thought maybe with me being as geeky with computers as I am, I didn't really see the value in how much "easier" the mac would be for them.  Sadly, I think they regret the purchase and feel bad for pushing them to get it.  Little programs that they used to use on their windows box they obviously can't use anymore, and I don't think my parents see any additional value gained.  My mom was quite disappointed that something as simple as a card reader isn't included.

So not every situation fits the same mold obviously. Your family switched, mine pretty much hasn't (or regrets it).  To each his own I say.

Nice having civilized conversation with you by the way.  I can't imagine it will last long on here. :)

January 5, 2009 10:45 PM
 

Lindy said:

@Shark and Sandman exactly WHAT is this guy implying with

"Around the globe, people need to balance the interests they have with the realities of the economy."???

Key phrase there for me is "people need" um sorry I dont need to do shat brother.  If I fall on hard times I will adjust.  If someone I dont know half way around the globe falls on hard times, um I am not going to buy a Windows PC because its cheaper, when I can afford not too. Nor do I think anyone needs to adjust their choices if I fall on hard times.  This is not a global food shortage or something critical.  These are niceties not necessities.  This is pure BS spin using the bad economy to try and stop people from buying a Mac and get them to buy a Windows PC.  Basically it is sad marketing.

I drive a Toyota Truck and use a Macbook as my primary PC.  I guess I dont fit into that guys world.

Nor does DRWAM, who drives a MB and uses a $400 Acer.  You better conform Doc, the economy is bad and you need to do your part, get rid of that car.

January 5, 2009 10:46 PM
 

Lindy said:

@Sandman you are right if you choose not to run AV free or not on Windows then dont.  Its not Microsofts problem.  I think if you have auto-update on, UAC on and are smart about what you do and where you go on the internet you wont need AV even on Windows.  Problem is if you make one mistake you will get nailed.

How many joe users know about free AVG and could find it and install it? They see a box on the shelf at BestBuy, maybe it was free on that "back to school weekend sale" that they bought their new Vista notebook or maybe it was just part of the craplets that came with their new Vista notebook.  I have seen many Windows computers come with some trial of whatever AV preloaded that will get in your face every time you boot up asking for some $$$ to work past 90 days.

January 5, 2009 10:52 PM
 

shark47 said:

"@Shark and Sandman exactly WHAT is this guy implying with ..."

I said I thought it was childish of MS to make such statements. But how is it communist? For years, Apple has been behaving like a spoiled kid. Is that communist too?

January 5, 2009 10:59 PM
 

tayme said:

@Lindy - Actually, quite a few non-techy people that I know, knew about and found AVG Free. Its not that tough with Google, Yahoo, Live, whatever.

I for one, use AV software on both of my Macs...maybe I'm paranoid. But, the overhead is nill on both the Mac and PC.

So, as far as a "tax"...its a nice marketing term used by lots of companies to talk about the competition's prices. Choose what you want and can afford...its not that big of a deal.

--tayme  

January 5, 2009 11:01 PM
 

SandmanX82 said:

@Lindy

"This is pure BS spin using the bad economy to try and stop people from buying a Mac and get them to buy a Windows PC."

Again, get some perspective.  It's Microsoft trying to sell Windows.  No different than Mac spouting their "pure BS spin" when they basically say "OH MY GOD....buy a Vista computer and it will break and you will get a million viruses" to get people to buy Macs.  I know, I know, they don't say that exact wording and don't say "people need" to buy a Mac, but they're implying that, aren't they?  It's called marketing.

"How many joe users know about free AVG and could find it and install it?"

Once again, who cares?  That's like me saying "I know a guy who bought a macbook and then bought a $200 iSight camera to go with it because he didn't know it came with one".  I don't see what you're trying to prove with saying all this.  All your proving is some people don't know any better.  This is Mac and Windows independant.

"Problem is if you make one mistake you will get nailed."

And if I don't install any AV software on a Mac and make one mistake I could get nailed.  Again, same as above...what are you trying to get at?

I don't get you Lindy, I must say.  Sometimes you come up with well thought out arguments...and other times you seem to...well...be robertsjoe or ocean in disguise.

January 5, 2009 11:02 PM
 

SandmanX82 said:

"I said I thought it was childish of MS to make such statements. But how is it communist? For years, Apple has been behaving like a spoiled kid. Is that communist too?"

Apparently it's "sad marketing" when Microsoft lies (according to Lindy) and implies you need buy Window PCs to save money...while Apple consistently lying in their ads is both creatively cute and funny.

January 5, 2009 11:05 PM
 

shark47 said:

"I don't get you Lindy, I must say.  Sometimes you come up with well thought out arguments...and other times you seem to...well...be robertsjoe or ocean in disguise."

Exactly my point! :-)

January 5, 2009 11:12 PM
 

Lindy said:

I have no problem with MS advertising and marketing/spin.....right up until they try to guilt/scare you with world economy problems and that is why you should buy a Windows PC.  I think its desperate and people are going to see it as BS.

I honestly think the Apple advertisements are childish.  That said all ads are 90% BS and honestly that is why I watch recorded TV, use Ad block and dont read adds in papers and magazines.

I dont run AV on my Mac's, nor do I know anyone that does.  I am sure there are some that do.  The "one mistake" on a PC with out AV vs a Mac with out AV is night and day different and you know it Sandman.  99% of malware crap out there is written for Windows, so Mac users that make that mistake end up with file types that wont run on OS X in their download folders.  Windows users are not so lucky.

January 5, 2009 11:14 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@shark47: Communism? Mircosoft? Communism offers choice. One choice. That's what Microsoft has given the world with their monopolist practices. One choice. You draw the conclusion.

January 5, 2009 11:16 PM
 

chipwinter said:

I work at home and switch to a new computer about every four years.

Every hour that I spend during those four years fussing with the computer costs me my hourly rate of $100.

For those who know both systems, would I "fuss" 8 hours less over four years with a Mac rather than a PC?

If yes, then there would be not Mac tax for me. If no, then, for me, there would be a tax.

Microsoft's PR arguments seem short-sighted to me.

January 5, 2009 11:19 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@tayme: "Can you tell me what it is about Windows Mobile that you don't like."

It's the wrong paradigm for a mobile device. Microsoft got it wrong by trying to squeeze a desktop OS in a mobile device. Took Apple to show them how it should be done. So I love the iPhone. It's a 1000 times better mobile device than anything running Windows Mobile OS.

"Of course, *IF* Apple sticks to its word and Jobs doesn't show up and they truly pull out of MacWorld"

Apple does not lie. Unlike MS.

"will be saing how lame keynotes and trade shows are at this time next year."

We will be saying that if Ballmer is the only game in keynote town next year. He (like his company) is lame and tasteless.

January 5, 2009 11:20 PM
 

Ocean said:

Why do I keep seeing my name when I haven't even commented in this thread?

January 5, 2009 11:22 PM
 

Ocean said:

Here is a good question:  Is it a 'tax' if the users pay it willingly?  Wouldn't that make it more like paying a 'premium'?

January 5, 2009 11:26 PM
 

SandmanX82 said:

"I have no problem with MS advertising and marketing/spin.....right up until they try to guilt/scare you with world economy problems"

That's your own opinion then I guess. Some people might see the flat-out lying in Macs ads as the point where they have the problem.

"The "one mistake" on a PC with out AV vs a Mac with out AV is night and day different"

And once again...what is the point you are trying to make here?  At first it seemed to be about people HAVING to buy AV software because they didn't know any better about free stuff...which was pointed out is the users fault, not Microsoft/Windows.  Now I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.  They provide auto updates, UAC, and work with hundreds of both free and paid-for anti-virus software.  What the end user ends up doing is nothing but the end users fault.  Microsoft isn't going to sit over your shoulder and watch people's every mouse click.  Just as if I were to jam peanut butter in the CD drive of my Mac, I'm not going to blame Apple for not preventing every little stupid thing I do.

January 5, 2009 11:28 PM
 

darkmax said:

hi guys,

A question for those of you Apple fanboys and Microsoft haters, didn't Microsoft bailed Apple out of the ditch back before 2000 started?

Now... wouldn't that mean that Apple's current success is owed, in majority, to MS?

"iPhone, made by Apple, thanks in part to Microsoft"....

January 5, 2009 11:58 PM
 

darkmax said:

If the world had chosen Mac over PC, Mac being in the majority, I believe they would face the same security and other issues as Windows users do now.

January 6, 2009 12:02 AM
 

chipwinter said:

Wow. I just spent some time going over those charts.

While I understand Microsoft's interest in noting how much more expensive Macs can be than PCs, this isn't a "new" thing.

That means that, if recent articles about Apple's U.S. market share nearing 10% are true, these charts are really showing how much people are willing to pay NOT to use Windows.

Ouch.

January 6, 2009 12:13 AM
 

robertsjoe said:

@darkmax: "Now... wouldn't that mean that Apple's current success is owed, in majority, to MS?"

You're dreaming. Apple's success is due to innovation and taste. Neither of which exist in MS.

"If the world had chosen Mac over PC, Mac being in the majority, I believe they would face the same security and other issues as Windows users do now."

Not at all. Windows is fundamentally flawed. The world chose Microsoft like people choose McDonald's. Cheap crap.

January 6, 2009 12:32 AM
 

nutts said:

I can't take any notice of somebody that writes "English" like this:

"You can get even more technology in Windows at the same price point than you can with a Mac than you could as recently as October,"

At the end of the day so what if somebody wants to pay a premium for perhaps a more refined experience? As the article correctly pointed out, some people would rather drive around in a BMW than a Toyota. That will always be the case. Who cares?

I can't really understand why Paul puts out trolling articles like this (well, except to obviously pay his bills from page hits) when he is somebody who has willingly paid the "Apple Tax" on his many Apple products and will continue to do so. Talk about hypocrisy.

January 6, 2009 12:40 AM
 

clindhartsen said:

Maybe I'm outside the wonderful world of typical Americans, living the larger part of my life under a household where credit was not spent like mad, but a Mac is simply too much cost-wise and doesn't offer that much more than a PC.

I've spent the better part of my life in low income housing, beginning college now and slowly transitioning to reality, and the truth is that I don't have the money to blow on a Mac. Every time I hear someone scream about how Macs are better and that they are worth it, do you want to go down the lower echelon of society and explain to them why they should forget about getting a car and instead get a Mac? Or get a Mac instead of something crucial, like a coat, clothing, food, or what have you?

The point of the matter is that there are plenty of Americans that are not going well, whether that be that they never had a high paying job, are now laid off, or are having to take a job with a lower income range. The truth of the matter is that PCs provide options for everyone from the rich to the poor, and screaming that they suck is about as bad as Republicans screaming Liberals will destroy America. Seriously, this whole issue is nothing more than that. The point that one can scream from an ivory tower is enough to drive me mad.

I've lived the better part of my life in the lower income level of the nation, and to be honest, the Mac's always seemed kind of cool, but realistically, it's too much money for something you'll surely cycle through faster than you ever will a PC.

January 6, 2009 12:42 AM
 

robertsjoe said:

"I can't really understand why Paul puts out trolling articles like this (well, except to obviously pay his bills from page hits)"

Bingo! Otherwise you'd take out comments and concentrate on the writing.

January 6, 2009 12:53 AM
 

subzerohitman721 said:

@Lindy,

Since 2003, I've been using AVG. Total cost of AVG free edition? $0.00. There are plenty of other free anti-virus out there. So that kills your argument cold. Anyone can pickup free anti-virus from a credible vendor with zero cost. So the Microsoft tax doesn't apply to me and many.

Second, Windows Defender does a good enough job in keep things running fine. It was free to XP users and integrated in Vista. No additional cost.

Oh, you want benchmark links?

www.macworld.com/.../macpro8.html

Little to no improvement over previous versions. Need more?

www.appleinsider.com/.../primate_benchmarks_apples_new_8_core_mac_pro.html

www.pcworld.com/.../eightcore_mac_not_for_general_tasks.html

As for the patch situation, just visit the folks at the National Security Database run by the U.S. CERT for that information.

I took the liberty of emailing Jeff Jones, Strategy Director in the Microsoft Security Technology Unit. He's currently working on an a yearly report on the vulnerabilities Windows, Leopard, and other OSes. Mr. Jones is currently putting the finishing touches on that report. But in his email he said, Apple did terribly on security this year. When is report is released, you'll get the numbers.

However, I do have some 1st quarter information on Mac threats.

ithreats.wordpress.com/.../q1-mac-threats-roundup

However PC World reported it. Funny how the Apple press didn't carry or report on this.

www.pcworld.com/.../apple_releases_another_megapatch_for_mac_os_x.html

Does that answer your questions?

January 6, 2009 1:08 AM
 

Ocean said:

>>in his email he said, Apple did terribly on security this year.<<

MS should highlight that in its advertising instead of that other hot mess of ads they released.

January 6, 2009 1:12 AM
 

robertsjoe said:

"Since 2003, I've been using AVG. Total cost of AVG free edition? $0.00. There are plenty of other free anti-virus out there. So that kills your argument cold. Anyone can pickup free anti-virus from a credible vendor with zero cost. So the Microsoft tax doesn't apply to me and many."

You have to install something to protect yourself. Then keep it up to date. It slows your machine. The point is that with OS X and Linux you don't have to worry AT ALL! That's a million times better from a UX POV.

January 6, 2009 1:13 AM
 

Dapx said:

Your story was featured in Dapx! Here is the link to vote it up and promote it: dapx.com/.../Apple-Tax-2-0

January 6, 2009 1:22 AM
 

devs said:

@ mikegalos : are you actually paul thurrot ? or just an extremely devoted fan of him ? You seem to have an unlimited time on your hands to post not the most thoughtprovoking post on this site...   Pfffff......

January 6, 2009 2:49 AM
 

MLomasIcomm said:

There's generally a 'sweet spot' for buying Apple hardware - and that point is usually right after it comes out.  Take the 'current' (ie, pre-Macworld) Mini's - they're looking old in tech terms, with old CPUs, and in general have components that probably cost a lot less than they used to - the price of the Mini?  Exactly the same.

In the PC world, things tend to move faster, with older models lowering in price over time, as newer models with higher specs are brought in.  The same thing doesn't really happen with Macs - which are introduced at a certain price point, and then stay at that price point until they are replaced (completely) with a new model.

People pay for Macs because they perceive a better quality of hardware and software - a 'premium' product.  Whether that's what they're /really/ getting is really an issue of physical design and software superiorty - but that's an argument that people will engage in without ever being resolved!

The big question now, in what is likely to be a recession year - is will people keep paying those premium prices?

January 6, 2009 3:13 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

"The point is that with OS X and Linux you don't have to worry AT ALL! "

Why, it's magic. And rainbows and unicorns...

Really, you guys are so cute.

January 6, 2009 3:39 AM
 

simongoldring said:

(partially @robertsjoe)

Evidently nobody else bothered clicking on robertsjoe's link (can't blame you). If you had, you would have seen his cute little pie chart (it's i38.tinypic.com/35bti6c.png ).

I found it most entertaining that he doesn't know how much 25% is. Maybe he's still in high school like me!

January 6, 2009 4:38 AM
 

Atlantean said:

Wow, I never thought you could save up to almost $2000 by going with a PC instead of a Mac. I mean, I knew they were over priced, and I thought it was because of the lovely, lovely design. But they seem to be inferior hardware-wise all across the board! O_o

January 6, 2009 6:08 AM
 

LC21 said:

Nothing new here. The Apple tax notion is routinely trotted out, generally by pundits. A little strange that MS is trumpeting it, but not surprising: MS is feeling the heat from a poor economy, speculation regarding layoffs is rampant, IE share is down, Macintosh share is up, and who on earth can describe what Ray Ozzie is doing.

For all its faults, Apple is an extremely well-run business with (for the most part, Mobile Me excluded) tremendous focus, execution, marketing, and supply chain management, with passionate customers.

Apple haters should wish all companies were managed so adroitly.

January 6, 2009 6:45 AM
 

The Apple Tax | Mobility Site said:

Pingback from  The Apple Tax | Mobility Site

January 6, 2009 6:55 AM
 

Waethorn said:

"I removed "AntiVirus 2009" from a Vista PC today, that belonged to a friend"

Then he must have Defender turned off, or UAC turned off, or no good antispyware product installed, cuz Defender and Microsoft antivirus products have been detecting it for the last 5 months.

....or is he taking a tip from you and turning UAC off?

January 6, 2009 6:58 AM
 

chuckb84 said:

Once in a while we get a reminder that Paul is Enderle with more tech savvy. That is, they both know who pays them, and that's Microsoft.

So, this "blog" is now for reposting Microsoft press releases? Who takes this guy seriously?

As for the issue at hand, the "expensive" Mac issue has been done to death. Macs continue to increase market share, Apple sells every one they can make while PC makers are going out of business or struggling to find relevance (Dell)  in a commodity market where PCs are interchangeable. You may not agree with the judgements that have led to this economic reality, but it nonetheless remains real!

Macs sell because they ARE PCs; I'm running Windows right now under Parallels, but I'm also running OS X. They do more, so I'm happy to pay more.

They are also not big, clunky butt-ugly bricks, and that matters to me. Pay your money and take your choice.

(Oh, and we know that when a PC fails, Paul can tell us that it is "Toshiba's fault, not Microsoft's" because, after all, Toshiba made the hardware....)

January 6, 2009 7:01 AM
 

johnpapola said:

@Atlantean,

That savings in particular is a lie because it's comparing workstation class 8-core Xeon Mac Pros with quad core gaming/consumer towers.  Like up the Dell Precision workstation to the Mac Pro for a fair fight.

As for the rest of this, I think anyone here that's saying "who cares" is right.  Again, I'm happy to see a market leader like Microsoft feeling enough competitive pressure that they have to resort to economic scare tactics.  I also have faith in people to make up their own damn mind based on their own needs and budgetary constraints.

Funny that there's no graph up for Apple's notebook line, despite that being the area where all the growth is coming from, while these silly mini towers are going the way of the dinosaur.

January 6, 2009 7:02 AM
 

Lindy said:

@subzero from your first link about the 8 core Mac (the same one I linked no less) Did you even read it?

"One test that did see great improvement with eight processing cores was our 3-D rendering test using Cinema 4D. Running this test, it’s easy to see how well this program takes advantage of all of the processors in a system. The rendering window splits itself into eight horizontal chunks, and you can watch each area being drawn simultaneously. In this test, the eight-core 3GHz system was 44 percent faster than the quad-core 3GHz model, finishing the job in just 14 seconds; the quad took 25 seconds"

If you knew anything you would know that when it comes to using multi-cores on Windows or OS X the major factor is whether the application is written to take advantage of it.  Sure the OS will use multi-cores for background OS stuff, but if an application wont use the cores then it does not matter.  Again this is true on Windows or OS X.  That is why you see those game sites bench mark games and they are faster on a high end dual core than they are on a quad core.  The faster dual core (3.0ghz DC vs 2.4ghz QC) drives the game faster because the games cant use multi-cores or at least more than 2.

"But in his email he said, Apple did terribly on security this year" Lol let me email someone at Apple about security and see if they said they did terrible...I am sure they would agree with our MS source.

Did Apple patch a lot yes.  Do they do a bad job or worse than MS in terms of time to patch, probably.  But in the end how many Macs were successfully attacked in 2008?  Please provide us links of actual attacks that worked.

Free AV is used, and I am sure that anyone that is posting here knows about free AV....its pretty much a given.  However the vast majority of Joe PC users, that are not in IT pay for it.  If they did not you would not see it being sold and yet there are many vendors that stay in business every year.

January 6, 2009 7:14 AM
 

Waethorn said:

@johnpapola:

Didn't you say before that you were "done with this site"???

LIES, DAMNABLE MACKIE LIES!

January 6, 2009 7:14 AM
 

DRWAM said:

Actually, our biggest hardcore Windows geek in the practice, ho is the section cheif of IT, just bought his son a 17 in MBP and his wife a 15in MBP, because "they got tired of all the problems on their Windows computers, whatever that means. He was an engineering major before an MD, and bought a $4400 custom PC with Vista Ultimate, but had to replace the mobo with a different model an constantly gets the BSD. The mobo was installed by the local computer fix squad. I gave him some reinstall suggestions, so we'll see.

Also, if you check out the vid card for the all in one Dell XPS and HP Touchsmart [at the same price as the iMac], you find an integrated intel GMA 3100 POS, rather than the ATI Radian HD 2400XT, so again comparing junk to quality = BS. The iMac is priced very simialrly to other All in Ones and the Xeon WS is too. The Apple laptop line actually is the problem as well as a lack of a low end line. Also, upgrades at the Apple store seem too cost much, much more than any other computer company, which is also an Apple tax.

If you don't like the crapware installed on your Windows computer, then delete it. I'll be glad to delete it to save a few hundred dollars. Even then one free subscription of the pre-installed AV app. I deleted Norton from my $400 Vista laptop, then added Avast [although I recently replaced it with OneCare], for free. I could have added any number of suitable free AV apps. There are some decent towers out there that cost less than the iMac [or any ALL in One PC] which has a premium for form, but most of us don't need a premium form factor. We would rather have a decent vid card and a larger, less expensive LCD screen. And personally, I have not had a single problem with my two Vista installations, including on my Mac Pro Tower.

My conclusion is that Vista is much less problematic than XP and very comparable to Leopard. The US may be buying more Macs, but if Windows 7 hits the mark, and the word get's out, the trend could go flat, especially in the laptop line, where netbook interest is growing.

January 6, 2009 7:15 AM
 

Lindy said:

"....or is he taking a tip from you and turning UAC off?"

Nope, I think anyone that turns off UAC is a total and utter fool, its the single best improvement in Vista.  Something OS X and Linux have had for a long time.

He was running an AV package that turnes off defender.  It was up to date.  I have no idea how he got it.  He is a Lawyer and he maybe has 5 applications in total on that PC he uses to do his job.

January 6, 2009 7:18 AM
 

Dipsh t Admin said:

"Apple does not lie."

That's the funnies thing I've read in a while.  Thanks for the laugh.  Seriously, if you think that Apple or any other company is some altruistic, wonderful entity that can be completely trusted, well, that's just plain dumb.  And whatever happened to you not posting anymore?  I guess you lied...

robertsjoe, see you at 3 PM.  I'll have the popcorn ready.

January 6, 2009 7:23 AM
 

Waethorn said:

@Doc:

The ATI 2400 isn't that impressive.  I would hardly call it "quality".  If there was a GMA X4500HD in the comparison, I'd rather take the Intel GMA over the ATI.

January 6, 2009 7:25 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"Wow, that must have stung. The trolls are out enmass [sic] today."

It's not "trolling" to comment on the actual topic of the blog. Jackass.

@Microsoft: ""Windows is more compatible than the Mac..."

Point of clarification: "Windows" is software. "The Mac" is hardware that runs software...including Windows. So this statement is simply not true. In fact, since "The Mac" is compatible with multiple operating systems, it is "The Mac" that is "more compatible" than Windows.

""Around the globe, people need to balance the interests they have with the realities of the economy."

How nice of Microsoft to be thinking of "the realities of the economy". What's next? A press release suggesting we all buy cheap generic food? Buy used cars instead of new? Perhaps we could put a chart together of "MonkeyBoy Ballmer's PennyPinching Tips".

This is marketing at its worst. A comparison spreadsheet? In 2009? How far Microsoft has fallen. Sad.

January 6, 2009 7:25 AM
 

tayme said:

"Is it a 'tax' if the users pay it willingly?"

There goes Ocean...using Paul's blog to try to gain attention for himself. Only this time, he stole the headline from Mary Jo Foley.

--tayme

January 6, 2009 7:32 AM
 

Waethorn said:

"This is marketing at its worst. A comparison spreadsheet? In 2009? How far Microsoft has fallen. Sad."

At least they're not doing "Get a Mac" ads.  Those are just sad.

January 6, 2009 7:33 AM
 

Waethorn said:

"He was running an AV package that turnes off defender.  It was up to date.  I have no idea how he got it."

Sad that your friends can't trust you to run their IT department.

January 6, 2009 7:35 AM
 

Lindy said:

"At least they're not doing "Get a Mac" ads.  Those are just sad"  I would tend to agree, but so far, they seem to be working which in end is the point of the ad.

How are those Bill and Jerry ads working out???

January 6, 2009 7:36 AM
 

Lindy said:

"Sad that your friends can't trust you to run their IT department."  I dont take care of it for him/them.  

Its a small law firm and they have a company that takes care of their IT, he had put in a call to them and had no response yet so asked me and I removed it for him.

January 6, 2009 7:49 AM
 

Waethorn said:

"Its a small law firm and they have a company that takes care of their IT, he had put in a call to them and had no response yet so asked me and I removed it for him."

*golf clap* for your effort anyway.

January 6, 2009 7:59 AM
 

DRWAM said:

Wae, that may be true, but that ATI on the the iMac is much better than the on board, shared,GMA 3100 shown in the MS chart, which is the point, and the HP Touchsmart is at the same price point.

However, Mac fans and MS fans alike, better PRAY that the Obama administration uses MS Amalga to digitize the US healthcare system, rather than a more expensive, less compatible third party solution that will gouge the US for money. MS Amalga will reduce costly duplication of services and corespondence as well as significantly reduce medical errors [most of which are NOT made by doctors, BTW].

January 6, 2009 8:01 AM
 

Waethorn said:

"ATI on the the iMac is much better than the on board, shared,GMA 3100 shown in the MS chart"

The Radeon 2400?  That's a bit of hyperbole really.

January 6, 2009 8:07 AM
 

tayme said:

OK - In reality it goes someting like this. I have seen it thousands of times.

- Joe Home User decides it is time for a new computer.

- If Joe has a tech savvy friend, Joe probably calls them for advice.

- Tech Savvy, if worth anything, asks a few questions.

     - What do you use your computer for?

     - What do you own right now for a computer?

     - How much can you afford to spend right now?

     - Do you have a monitor, keyboard, printer, etc. to connect?

     - Do you own any software licenses that you want to install on the new computer?

     - Do you have high speed internet? (Yes, there are still a lot of people in the US that don't)

Based on the answers to those questions and maybe a few others, Tech Savvy should be able to make a recommendation that will meet AND even exceed Joe's needs and expectation. That choice may be a Mac, it may be a Dell laptop, it may be a multi CPU workstation running Ubuntu.

Anyone that blindly recommends a particular PC and OS is doing nothing but taking advantage of a friend to do what they believe is a favor for either MS or Apple. Stupid, stupid move.

--tayme

January 6, 2009 8:07 AM
 

Waethorn said:

@Doc:

Amalga HIS looks interesting.

One of the biggest problems is with charting though.  End user experiences (and the time it takes for those experiences) on digital charting is just terrible today.  I'd like to see how HIS addresses that.

January 6, 2009 8:09 AM
 

Waethorn said:

"How much can you afford to spend right now?"

I usually put that at the bottom of the list and replace that spot for "What would you like to use your *new* computer for?" or "Why are you interested in buying a new computer?" (if I don't already know the answer).  Some people can't do what they want with their existing computer, so I think it's a more important question to ask.

Setting unrealistic price points for a particular computer usage leaves the customer open to disappointment in the end.  I have to deal with this many times a day.

ex  1).  You can't (realistically) believe a $500 system will be good for Photoshop CS4.

ex  2)  You can't (realistically) believe a $399 laptop will acceptably play Crysis.  (Sorry, Doc)

ex  3)  You can't (realistically) believe that you need a $1500 Core i7 system with a GeForce 9800 GTX for surfing the web, listening to music, and just managing photos.

ex  4)  You can't buy a Ferrari for the price of a Civic.  Likewise, how practical is it to drive a Ferrari to a blue-collar jobsite every day?

That aside, sometimes people have particular computer system specs in mind.  If they've made up their mind that they want a $3000 computer and they want to buy from me, who am I to argue?!

January 6, 2009 8:23 AM
 

Ocean said:

Why is Tayme obsessed with me?  Even in a thread where I don't say anything, he continues to talk about me, and not technology.

January 6, 2009 8:27 AM
 

DRWAM said:

It's going to be a challenge Wae, but I have seen some good solutions from Siemens and GE. But they are very expensive and difficult to fully customize [the picky desires of doctors]. Amalga just seems more scalable as well as good integration qualities, and less expensive. When finished, I know that I would rather get MS support when needed, than GE or Siemens. When GE or Siemens has a problem that they cannot fix, they call MS!!! Maybe I'll be talking to Mikey some day on the phone! But all joking aside, I really think that we need a bigger software company like MS to solve our digital needs. My 3 hospital system is or claims to be using it in the future, but is not listed as a site at the Amalga page. Maybe soon. But I just love the MS video conferencing solutions so that I can stay at home for a meeting...and even use a Mac! MS makes stuff and makes it Mac compatible too! Bless their hearts.;)

January 6, 2009 8:27 AM
 

Waethorn said:

@Doc:

I have to wonder about the reason to include an ATI graphics card in an iMac.

After all, johnpapola says that "Core Animation works fine on the [piss-poor] G4 Mac onboard video".

Since games are pretty much a joke on Mac's, why would anyone need to pay extra for an ATI part that they don't use?

Anyone?

Sorry I can't hear a plausible line of reasoning over the crickets.

Apple Tax indeed.

January 6, 2009 8:31 AM
 

Lindy said:

Wow Waethorn, for once I completely agree with you last post.  I would be that the majority of users fit into.....ex 3 for their needs "surfing the web, listening to music, and just managing photos"

January 6, 2009 8:31 AM
 

tayme said:

@Waethorn - Very good points...I did not order those questions properly and your additional questions and examples are right on spot. This is what a site like this should be used for. Not some petty and imagined OS war.

Next question for you though, if Joe had his mind set on a Mac, and it would do everything that he wanted, would you be equally obliged to say "Who am I to argue?" If not, then you are disingenuous in your response.

--tayme

January 6, 2009 8:43 AM
 

Waethorn said:

"I would bet that the majority of users fit into....."

When you start figuring out user preferences by percentages, you begin to show the signs of "salesman-suckitude", both from customer relations standpoint and well as with sales revenues.  Asking people what they want is better.  Everybody is different in their computing wants/needs.  Nobody fits into a cookie-cutter solution.

January 6, 2009 8:43 AM
 

Ocean said:

>>But once again, the e-mail I got from a Microsoft representative takes a heavy-handed approach to making this perfectly valid point. “Apple continues to impose the Apple tax” was the subject line, a notion repeated in a statement within the message so important it’s in boldface: They continue to impose the Apple Tax on consumers even in the midst of a very challenging recession.”

What’s with the “impose?” What makes it a “tax?” Apple isn’t the Sheriff of Nottingham, and it can’t impose anything on anyone. (As Microsoft’s own e-mail points out, the world is bursting at the seams with other choices, most of which cost less than Macs.) All it can do is try to convince consumers that the products it sells are worth the money. If it can’t do that, it’ll eventually go out of business. (Hey, it almost did in the mid-1990s.)

Reasonable people can and do disagree on whether Macs are good values, but every purchase of one represents a willful decision by a person to spend money. That’s more of an investment–sensible or not–than a tax.

Then there’s the fact that computers with Mac-like features and Mac-like price premiums exist in the Windows world, too–most obviously in the form of Sony’s classier VAIOs. With computers as with most things in life, you’ll probably pay extra for fancier materials and more stylish design. But Microsoft isn’t about to start talking about a Sony tax or a VooDoo tax.<<

technologizer.com/.../two-things-about-the-apple-tax-it-doesnt-just-apply-to-apples-and-it-isnt-a-tax

January 6, 2009 8:50 AM
 

Waethorn said:

"if Joe had his mind set on a Mac, and it would do everything that he wanted, would you be equally obliged to say "Who am I to argue?""

Then he either wouldn't be in my store, or would like a second opinion.  As I said, "if someone wanted to buy from me"....  Obviously when someone comes in to my store, they aren't looking for a Mac - they're looking for a PC instead.  I'd, for the moment, forget that they wanted a Mac and still go through the same recommendation process and recommend one of my own (since I don't sell Mac's).

And no, that's not being disingenuous.

January 6, 2009 8:54 AM
 

tayme said:

@Waethorn - As you said above...that is "salesman-suckitude". Take off the sales hat for a while and imagine that Joe did not come into your store...he's just a buddy that while sitting at a bar enjoying a few pints with you and a group of others asks your advice and tells you that he really wants a Mac AND that Mac meets every one of his needs, just as well as a Windows based PC. What would you do?

--tayme

January 6, 2009 9:04 AM
 

Waethorn said:

@tayme:

If I changed ex3 to a $1500 iMac, you'd probably be up in arms.

January 6, 2009 9:06 AM
 

shark47 said:

"...he's just a buddy that while sitting at a bar enjoying a few pints with you and a group of others asks your advice and tells you that he really wants a Mac AND that Mac meets every one of his needs, just as well as a Windows based PC. What would you do?"

Tie him to a pole outside the bar and leave him there until he comes to his senses.

January 6, 2009 9:15 AM
 

Waethorn said:

"imagine that Joe did not come into your store...he's just a buddy that while sitting at a bar enjoying a few pints with you and a group of others asks your advice and tells you that he really wants a Mac AND that Mac meets every one of his needs, just as well as a Windows based PC. What would you do?"

1)  I'd say that if you were comparing a Windows PC vs. a Mac, that one of my Windows PC's is going to be cheaper.  Who would honestly spend more money on an equivalent product as exampled by your comment (See my pricing examples above - does the Mac Mini at $599 for a Core [1] Duo and DVD Combo & 80GB hard drive honestly represent a good value proposition in your opinion?).

2)  I don't drink, so that scenario doesn't happen.

3)  My buddy's already buy from me, so that's not a problem.

January 6, 2009 9:22 AM
 

Waethorn said:

@sharky:  :)

@tayme:

Through the slurred speech and having to pick him up of the floor, I'd dismiss his disjointed expression as a result of him having had one too many.

January 6, 2009 9:25 AM
 

tayme said:

@Waethorn - Actually, you are wrong. I have suggested Macs and Windows PCs alike to friends/family. In fact, I suggest the same $400 laptop that DRWAM has to my sister and she loves it. Once I set it up for her, I have not heard anything from her. Vista is solid and safe. I enjoy using it...especially Media Center and Zune. And now, I am learning WinMO, and have already come to enjoy it way more than I would an iPhone. But, I like using the Macs that I have as well. I guess I don't fit into the mold that you, mikegalos, Ocean, and robertsjoe all equally adhere to - "You're either with us or against us." It is only the "us" that is different.

--tayme

January 6, 2009 9:28 AM
 

tayme said:

@Sharky - "Tie him to a pole outside the bar and leave him there until he comes to his senses."

But, would you let him take a pint or 2 with him?

--tayme

January 6, 2009 9:29 AM
 

Waethorn said:

"Mac Mini at $599 for a Core [1] Duo"

My bad.  It is a Core 2 Duo.  Not that I really pay attention to them much.  They still aren't worthwhile.

January 6, 2009 9:30 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"What would you do?"

tayme: You're asking that question of a person who admits that he trolls Apple stores looking for customers. Wae is a self-serving partisan of the highest order. He's in business to make money, and there's nothing wrong with that. But expecting him to be objective is just silly.

January 6, 2009 9:31 AM
 

DRWAM said:

I upgrade the vid card in my Mac Pro Tower just in case I wanted to play games or play games when booting in Vista too. So one answer for a better vid card in a Mac would be to play games with Windows:)

One of my partners went to the Mac store two weeks ago and just bought the most upgraded Tower that they had to offer. He said that since it was a business write-off, it was like getting 40% off [using pre-tax money]. The funny thing was that he was trying to connect to his wireless home network and could not. He called a 'Genius' at the Apple store and was told 'all Pro's have wireless built in'. He tried unsuccessfully again, and even went back to the Apple store and asked again, receiving the same response. Then looked on line and found that while MacBooks all have wireless, wireless [Airport] cards are optional on Mac Pro Towers, unlike what he was told by TWO 'Geniuses' in the Apple Store. Real genius. They don't even know their own products.

January 6, 2009 9:32 AM
 

Avro said:

@tayme What if the Mac met his needs better?

I really enjoy this blog and Windows Weekly, but Paul is not at his best when he criticises Apple.

The Mac Pro comparison is way off base.  Paul has compared a consumer oriented Dell with a Mac designed for Pros.  The Mac Pro here in England will set you  about £2,000 while the equivalent Dell Precision T7400 costs in the area of £3,000 and the same is true of the HP equivalent - the Mac Pro comes in at £1,000 ($1,500) cheaper..  A friend who is a reseller of both HP and Macs in New Zealand has told me that the Mac Pro is the one Apple product that is simply better priced than the Windows equivalent.

When Operating Systems work I find there is very little difference in quality between OS X and Windows although I find the Windows UI convoluted.  For what I do the software is better on the Mac, but for me the real killer feature is dependability and support.  Like many Mac using professionals I have to work odd hours with not a lot in the way of technical support.  I may get a call at 10 pm to produce a presentation incorporating late breaking issues for 8am.  I need something with close to 100% reliability and the Mac Pro gives me that.  I would call that the Apple advantage.

In most cases (not in mine) you pay a bit more for a Mac, but the support tends to be a lot better.  The power supply went down on my Dell laptop - two weeks for a replacement to arrive.  On the MacBook the dog ate the power supply and we had a new replacement, at no cost to us, within 3 hours.  AppleCare is superb and other than our 1st Gen MacBook (we have 5 Macs) we have seldom had to use it, but they have helped us out with our old Power Mac even after the 3 year warranty has expired.  This impresses the customer.  On the odd occasion where we have needed to fix a Mac, it has been done so under AppleCare within 48 hours and we have been very satisfied.

Contrast that experience with my Mum (retired and living in Canada) who in 2006 bought a Dell tower at the urging of my Windows using chartered accountant brother (He even looks like PC Guy)  - I was doing my bit for Queen and country in Afghanistan at the time.  Dell's support has been horrid and the thing has never worked properly.  Frequent service calls at up to $200 a time have not improved the situation.  Who on earth knows how to fix a Windows machine?  AFAIK anyone can hang out a shingle, charge $100 for a look see and then have a go for another $100, but nothing ever gets fixed in the end.  Who is to blame?  Microsoft?  Dell?  Some component maker?  3rd Party software?  In the end the consumer does not care, he just wants something that works.

As far as the 'Get a Mac' adverts go, they are not lies, but a compilation of common Windows problems that are somewhat exaggerated.  All of us know Windows Users who have had these problems and what they do is remind those who are on the point of buying a new computer about their existence.  The adverts are aimed at Windows Users not Mac Users and they have been very successful.  What the potential buyer goes away with is 'If I buy Windows I am going to have loads of problems' and the guys moaning about Vista at the water cooler at work will only reinforce this.  I am not saying these problems are a true reflection of what will happen if they buy another Windows computer, but it has been very effective marketing.

en.wikipedia.org/.../Get_a_Mac

Windows is a good OS as is OS X, but Microsoft gets let down time after time by the OEMs, component makers and 3rd Party software houses.  Dell spends millions not trying to build better computers.... but cheaper ones.  HP and Sony put far too much cr*pware on their computers.  This year for academic reasons I have had to use Windows XP on my Mac Pro a lot and it ran very well, not as stable as OS X but almost as good.  On my Dell the experience was so bad that I replaced it with Ubuntu.  Microsoft always gets the blame when Windows has problems.  I think the source lies elsewhere, with the OEMs, cheap components and badly written 3rd party software.

My experience with XP on my Macs has been very good, much better than I had with any of 4 OEM laptops I have had in the past.  Windows on a good computer can give you a good experience, but good does not come cheap.

I would say it Apple experience is like putting a BMW engine into a BMW car while the Windows and Linux one is like dropping the engine into whatever is on hand. If it is a good car built with fine components and tested you might well get a good experience, but if it is not you could have a nightmare.  I can't risk it and life is too short.

And if any of the Windows fans here knows a good computer repair option in Canada, please send me a PM.

January 6, 2009 9:34 AM
 

tayme said:

@Waethorn - "1)  I'd say that if you were comparing a Windows PC vs. a Mac, that one of my Windows PC's is going to be cheaper.  Who would honestly spend more money on an equivalent product as exampled by your comment (See my pricing examples above - does the Mac Mini at $599 for a Core [1] Duo and DVD Combo & 80GB hard drive honestly represent a good value proposition in your opinion?)."

But above you said "That aside, sometimes people have particular computer system specs in mind." Why is it different if those system specs include OS X? I think that it is obvious to everybody here that I am not a mac zealot...but, I am also not wearing blinders the other way. We'll never agree...and that is ok...I jsut wanted to run it past you.

I would like to ask robertsjoe and Ocean to answer the same questions...so, come on guys...what would it be for you? What if a buddy came to you with this scenario and had thier mind set on a Vista based PC? How would you respond?

--tayme

January 6, 2009 9:41 AM
 

tayme said:

@DRWAM - "...unlike what he was told by TWO 'Geniuses' in the Apple Store. Real genius. They don't even know their own products."

That is a well known issue with the "geniuses". They are nothing more than Apple evangelists. More often than not, they are there to upsale the customers that walk in looking for assistance with a problem.

--tayme

January 6, 2009 9:44 AM
 

tayme said:

@Avro - Very well said...I tend to agree with you on most points. I do disagree with you on the Get A Mac ads...there are many lies, or at least non-truths,  that have been put forth in them.

I am sure that Waethorn will offer up his services...depending on where in Canada you Mother is. I think that he is probably pretty good at what he does...

--tayme

January 6, 2009 9:53 AM
 

KWRussell said:

Cost is objective.

Value is subjective.

Microsoft's entire "Apple tax" argument is based on those two concepts being interchangeable, when they clearly aren't.

January 6, 2009 10:12 AM
 

DarkSages said:

One more problem with Apple is support for their own software.

January 6, 2009 10:22 AM
 

DRWAM said:

AVRO, I think that the chart was from MS, not Paul. hat's why I pot the smiley after 'liar' to imply that MS lies too, although this was not in an ad shown world wide, and probably for internal purposes, which means that they really were not lying to the public. Hence, the smiley wink.

January 6, 2009 10:36 AM
 

Lindy said:

Out of curiosity, since I dont really watch the Apple ads what "lies" are being told?

From what little I have seen I would tend to agree with  Avro "but a compilation of common Windows problems that are somewhat exaggerated".

Again I have not seen many, especially after I went to Avro's link and saw how many there were.  The last non iPod/iPhone add I saw was the one with the advertising money on the table.  Which I assume was in response to Microsoft publicly stating they were adding more money to their advertising budget partly in response to counter the get a Mac adds.  Why or how is that add a "lie"?

January 6, 2009 10:47 AM
 

shark47 said:

"Cost is objective.

Value is subjective.

Microsoft's entire "Apple tax" argument is based on those two concepts being interchangeable, when they clearly aren't."

Good point. I don't think Microsoft should've done this. The whole concept of 'Apple Tax', the way Microsoft has presented it is, in my opinion, silly.

Guess what Apple's ads do, though? They exaggerate problems with low-end PCs to sell luxury goods. It's the same concept, but somehow it's more acceptable when Apple does it.

January 6, 2009 10:48 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

"Cost is objective.Value is subjective."

And P.T. Barnum smiles from beyond the grave.

January 6, 2009 10:57 AM
 

shark47 said:

" Which I assume was in response to Microsoft publicly stating they were adding more money to their advertising budget partly in response to counter the get a Mac adds.  Why or how is that add a "lie"?"

Well, do the people at Apple's ad agency know how MS operates? Are they sure that the $300 mn used for advertising was from their budget to fix Vista's problems? Do they know for sure that Microsoft, instead of fixing Vista, spent money on advertising? Are they certain that Microsoft didn't dedicate resources to making Vista better?

If the answers to the above questions were "Yes", then you're right. Apple wasn't lying.

January 6, 2009 11:02 AM
 

johnpapola said:

@mike,

What is it with you and P.T. Barnum? Is this some kind of socialist dig at a firm's right to price their products at whatever the market will bare? I don't get it.  If Apple's prices are "too high" it will manifest in reduced sales and lost share.  If they don't adapt to those price signals, they will ultimately go out of business.  But clearly they are responsive to the price signal, as evidenced by the ongoing iPod and iPhone price reductions.

January 6, 2009 11:05 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

john

I'm sure Barnum's customers got offended by people laughing at them on their way past viewing the "Great Egress", too.

But why do you think that's Socialist?

January 6, 2009 11:14 AM
 

Lindy said:

@Shark I would say NO, they dont know for sure.  However its not like they stated as a fact, especially when you consider the take on all of it is from a standpoint of jest/humor.

They took the fact that Vista at one time had problems, which any sane person would agree, especially since MS themselves said so in internal emails that are now public.  Then they took the fact that MS was spending more on advertising, specifically more on Vista (announced by MS themselves/mohave) and wrapped the whole thing in fiction/humor.  An outright lie, no, exaggeration of some facts yes.

January 6, 2009 11:21 AM
 

johnpapola said:

@mike.  

Maybe I'm overanalyzing.  I just so no grounds to pass judgement on Apple's prices in a market as competitive as computers.  If they're too high, they'll lose sales.  That's the only determination of a price being "too high".

But maybe you're not making a economic criticism.  Maybe you're just saying that anyone that buys a mac is being duped like those that went to see the circus (as if paying to be entertained is somehow being duped).

That's worse, actually, because it's generalizing, insulting and elitist. But whatever.  have a great day.

January 6, 2009 11:27 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Wow. I'm both a Socialist and an elitist at the same time for the same post.

To quote the immortal Inigo Montoya, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

January 6, 2009 11:33 AM
 

johnpapola said:

@mike,

dude, you're the one comparing mac users to people being scammed by PT barnum.

January 6, 2009 12:31 PM
 

panache1023 said:

The best post of Mike Galos so far was this one.

""Cost is objective.Value is subjective."

And P.T. Barnum smiles from beyond the grave."

Hey mike....what if a family member bequeaths an object that you can buy in the store for $5 to a child....the COST of the object was $5, but the VALUE *may* be immeasurable......sometimes things that you can buy for a certain dollar amount are *PRICELESS* to others.

The fact that you would even say your PT Barnum comment in response to the cost is object value is subjective clearly shows how clueless you are.

January 6, 2009 12:35 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Apparently those charts don't need to change based on MacWorld Expo announcements since there were no changes to the iMac or Mac Pro or Mac mini lines and only a change to MacBook Pro 17" which wasn't mentioned.

January 6, 2009 12:40 PM
 

Avro said:

@tayme and @Lindy

Let me run down just a few of the 'Get a Mac' adverts.  The frequent complaint we get from Windows fans is that the adverts are lies and say nothing good about OS X.  But is this the case?

Windows criticisms

• (Choose a Vista) Too many versions of Vista

-IMHO True.  I was in a computer shop and they were selling Vista at a decent price and I thought I would get one for my Mac Pro, but was so confused by all the versions went home empty handed.  A few days later I decided to take a postgrad course that demanded XP so I got that instead.

• (Restarting) The Windows experience is blotted by freezing and having to restart

In my experience there is some truth to this.  I had the Mother and Father of all freezes on Windows ME 10 minutes before having to submit a year end assignment for University back in 2000.  I actually could not restart it but luckily was told that I could submit on my Mac and there was a 12 hour grace period.  I have not forgotten this and the advert brought it to mind.

•(V Word) Microsoft is avoiding mentioning Vista and prefers today to say Windows

-IMHO True

•(Network) Windows has driver issues

In my experience very true and if I remember correctly Leopard does plug and play with 3,000 printers while Vista does only 2,000

• (Meant for Work) Windows is meant for the intranet at the office and doesn't like it when kids do their thing on it

-IMHO there is some truth in this.  Kids in England have their terms split up by half-terms work or two week long holiday and the number of guys at work complaining that their Windows machines don't function properly.

• (Viruses) Windows suffers from viruses while OS X does not

-True, but OS X and Linux can suffer from other types of malware

• (Stuffed) Many Windows PCs are stuffed with Bloatware

-True

Adverts that actively promote the Mac

• (Out of the Box)

-Easier set-up

•(iLife) Promotion of iLife

-iLife and iWork are good suites

• (Time Machine)  Promotion of Time Machine

-OK the interface is hokey, but it is very popular and people are backing up to a secondary drive

•Family Friendly

-OS X software is often available at slightly higher cost for a 5 user licence, appropriate for multi-computer households of today

•(Tech Support)

-In the days of the Sticky-on Webcam and wireless cards the Macs built-in wireless and camera were better

•(Pizza Box)

-Macs are popular with University and College Students

•(Now What) Apple Stores and Genius Bar

-Good help in choosing a Mac and centralised support

•(Accident)

-Promotes the Apple Mag Safe power connector

• (Office Stress)

- MS Office 2008 is available for the Mac

Some of the adverts are exaggerated to be sure but take a look at this Microsoft Apple Tax allegation:

Hmmm Price comparison of like with like?  I think not.

Compatibility of devices?  Many friends mention that their devices work well with their OS X and XP computers - but not with Vista.  MobileMe, iPods, iPod Touches and iPhones work well with OS X.  

Please don't mention Office 2007/2008 formats or I may get violent ;-)

Lack of technology innovation?  How about throwing out the legacy stuff and starting over again.  OS X did it.

To be fair Apple has exaggerated certain Windows problems and the Windows guys do the same with Apple (ie the alleged MobileMe shortcomings that affected 00.5% of users)  

Most of us here are quite capable of sorting out our own tech problems.  Most switchers I know are interested in tech, but they are not nerds or geeks and this is the target audience for the Mac adverts.  They are looking for an easier life.

January 6, 2009 12:56 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

john

I'm sure the people watching P.T.Barnum's shows would have strongly defended their purchase as a good "value".

January 6, 2009 12:59 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"I upgrade the vid card in my Mac Pro Tower just in case I wanted to play games or play games when booting in Vista too. So one answer for a better vid card in a Mac would be to play games with Windows"

@Doc, everyone:  When was the Mac Pro ever marketed as their gaming machine?

Besides, when does Apple ever admit to a response like that?:  "you can upgrade the computer so that you can do more stuff with it - in Windows"

"wireless [Airport] cards are optional on Mac Pro Towers, unlike what he was told by TWO 'Geniuses' in the Apple Store. Real genius. They don't even know their own products."

....and losta wonders why (or maybe how easy it is) I pick up customers from there.

"But above you said "That aside, sometimes people have particular computer system specs in mind." Why is it different if those system specs include OS X?"

....and as I said, the people that are dead-set on buying a Mac don't shop at my store.  People that are undecided are better suited to a less expensive PC.  I have to ultimately persuade them to buy from me by way of a value proposition.  You can keep misquoting me by leaving out tidbits of my comments on every post you make, but people on here are smarter than that.

As far as value vs. cost is concerned, there's a simple measure of balance:  (actual selling price) < (perceived value) > (fair market value of competition).  

If that calculation doesn't balance then you have problems.  The selling price should never be higher than the customer's perceptions otherwise you lose the sale.  The market value of competition should be less than the customer's perceptions, but not less than the selling price.  If the selling price is too much lower than the market value, then the business is being anti-competitive and it's not doing them any good.  If both the selling price and competition are much lower than customer's perceptions, but the price is still lower by a small margin, everybody wins.  

That's value in a nutshell.

January 6, 2009 1:28 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"Lack of technology innovation?  How about throwing out the legacy stuff and starting over again.  OS X did it."

Ya, I'm sure that johnpapola's video editing G4 Powerbook is lookin' awfully sad in the corner with no love from Snow Leopard.  :)

January 6, 2009 1:35 PM
 

tayme said:

@Avro - You really should not use the emotion filled stories of yours...mikegalos will pitch a fit!

I am not going to run down the full list...but here are a few responses.

• (Restarting) The Windows experience is blotted by freezing and having to restart

- The story that you had WAS true in ME...and even a little in XP...but I have had to resart Vista less than I have had to restart Leopard.

• (Viruses) Windows suffers from viruses while OS X does not

- I think that it has been shown that Vista has had fewer vulnerabilities and those were fixed quicker.

•(iLife) Promotion of iLife

- That is an advert for an application suite...not an OS

•(Pizza Box)

- Not so popular here in the US with the college crowd. The ystruggle enough with tuition and romm/boarding to afford anything more than what Mom and Dad send them off with.

•(Now What) Apple Stores and Genius Bar

- Genius Bar...support...surely you jest!

•(Accident)

The MagSafe is awesome...I'll give you that.

--tayme

January 6, 2009 1:37 PM
 

johnpapola said:

@mike,

Don't mock tens of millions of consumers as being ignorant fools for making a legitimate, voluntary choice and then take umbrage for being called an elitist or a jerk.

@waethorn

"Ya, I'm sure that johnpapola's video editing G4 Powerbook is lookin' awfully sad in the corner with no love from Snow Leopard.  :)"

Oh, because a 4 year old PC is going to run Windows 7 great.  What are you even talking about, dude?  I'm all intel as is anyone running processor intensive work.

Just one more intellectually bankrupt jab from the lord of the shills, waethorn.

January 6, 2009 1:44 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

"How about throwing out the legacy stuff and starting over again.  OS X did it."

Actually, Microsoft did that in the transition from Windows 9x to the Windows NT based consumer systems such as Windows XP and Windows Vista.

It's just that, unlike Apple, they did a good enough job on backward compatibility that you didn't notice.

And, unlike Apple, Microsoft actually wrote a modern operating system core. Apple tried to do that but failed miserably several times with Copland and Gershwin and Taligent Pink and had to give up and fall back on pasting their UI on top of a crufty old 3rd party Unix architecture.

January 6, 2009 1:48 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

john

Am I an "elitist" or a "socialist"? (or are you restricted in some way to only dragging up things that are in the Bill O'Reilly Insult Dictionary)

January 6, 2009 1:50 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"Oh, because a 4 year old PC is going to run Windows 7 great."

Considering that I had a Core Duo about 3 years ago and it ran Vista just fine when it came out, and Windows 7 runs on Atom processors that are both single-core and slower, then yes, I'd say so.

January 6, 2009 1:53 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"Ya, I'm sure that johnpapola's video editing G4 Powerbook is lookin' awfully sad in the corner with no love from Snow Leopard.  :)"

I have a "video editing G4 PowerBook". Still going strong. Still edits video just fine, thankyouverymuch, and I've made more money off of it than I can count.

So what's your point, "Waethorn"? That it won't run an as-yet-unreleased operating system six years after its introduction?

You're off the rails. Again.

January 6, 2009 1:56 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"So what's your point, "Waethorn"? That it won't run an as-yet-unreleased operating system six years after its introduction?"

No....that it won't run on a 3 year old G4 laptop.  Check your dates.  G4's were sold into 2006.

January 6, 2009 2:15 PM
 

Waethorn said:

LOL at MacBook Wheel:

8GB:  ~$2600

40GB:  >$9900

January 6, 2009 2:17 PM
 

Waethorn said:

LOL:

"It remains to be seen if the MacBook Wheel will catch on in the business world, where people use computers for actual work, and not just dicking around."

January 6, 2009 2:19 PM
 

johnpapola said:

@Waethorn,

I concur with Lotsa.  A powerbook g4, while slow as hell compared to intel kit of it's day, is still very capable of doing the same HD video editing as it did back then.  But, yeah, the G4 was horribly slow, which is why I'd been praying for a switch to Intel years before it happened when the Pentium M showed the way forward.

@Mike,

You may not be a socialist.  But your PT Barnum line is elitist and insulting.  Obviously it was your intention to be insulting to mac users.  You're entitled.  Whatever.  But don't take umbrage for being called out for it.  That's just silly.  

January 6, 2009 2:21 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"it won't run on a 3 year old G4 laptop"

It won't run on anything, because it hasn't been introduced yet. How many times do I have to explain this to you?

Spin it however you want, Wae. My PowerBook was introduced in January of 2003. It has been and continues to be a phenomenal value.

In fact, I still have two "Quicksilver 867" Macs that I call into service for basic editing jobs as well, and those date back to July of 2001. They still run Final Cut Pro just fine (albeit slowly compared to the latest version on a modern Mac). They didn't suddenly become inoperative because of later hardware/software updates. I never bothered to upgrade the OS past 10.3.9, but no matter. They're great machines.

January 6, 2009 2:26 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"But your PT Barnum line is elitist and insulting. "

Not to mention inaccurate:

www.historybuff.com/.../refbarnum.html

But hey, "mikegalos" never lets the facts get in the way of a smarmy post

Ten seconds of research...    :-)

January 6, 2009 2:29 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

lotsa

Actually, I said the following about Barnum (as actually reading the thread first would have told you):

-----------------

"If people pay for a product, then it's fairly priced. "

Both P.T. Barnum and S.P. Jobs find people who believe that a real comfort...

-----------------------------------

"Cost is objective.Value is subjective."

And P.T. Barnum smiles from beyond the grave.

-----------------------------------

I'm sure the people watching P.T.Barnum's shows would have strongly defended their purchase as a good "value".

January 6, 2009 2:38 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"It won't run on anything, because it hasn't been introduced yet. How many times do I have to explain this to you?"

....Windows 7 beta runs on a 3 year old computer.  Snow Leopard beta doesn't.

Care to argue that?

January 6, 2009 2:39 PM
 

Avro said:

@ tayme

Pizza Box

I have looked at the figures and droves of US undergraduates are buying MacBooks .  I believe the figures for the Ivy League are 53% of freshmen are showing up with MacBooks and at Yale it has gone from 8% to 62% in just a couple of years.  Big student discounts for Macs and sweeteners like an iPod Touch thrown in no doubt help sales.

iLife The adverts are "Get a Mac" and iLife comes with every new Mac so my comment is legitimate.

The advert was about viruses predates Vista, but FYI between 2002 and 2007 Apple had 38 Major OS releases compared to Windows with 7.  Apple patched 815 vulnerabilities while Windows patched 678.  Furthermore Apple vulnerabilities tend to be due to new code while Windows ones tend to be exploits that have existed in Windows since perhaps Windows 95 but are just being discovered.

As far as support goes the Consumers Association both here in the UK and in the US rates Apple top for service and support as well as customer satisfaction.  Quality like that costs.

I take your points about Vista.  I think it is much better than its reputation deserves but it has a very poor image and Apple did manage to exploit that.

January 6, 2009 2:39 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Lindy

"I love how they drop out this list of hardware, most of which will probably be old.....um tomorrow after Apple announcements. "

Probably time for you to hang up your Apple Industry Analyst cap. (Well, actually, you did about as well as they did)

January 6, 2009 2:46 PM
 

DRWAM said:

lotsa, I still use a G4 AGP tower upgraded from 450MHz to 1.25GHz. It works fine and I have full Leopard updated running without a glitch. Before I bought an [Intel] Mac Pro Tower, I used it to make family DVD's. I preferred it over my 3.4 GHz P4 with XP using a few DVD making apps.

January 6, 2009 3:11 PM
 

Waethorn said:

BTW:  It looks like OEM's want Intel to hold off on a Core i7 mobile platform.  That spells bad news for an iMac i7.

January 6, 2009 3:32 PM
 

Waethorn said:

You know, I look at the Core i7.  Ok, it's great.  It's the new platform and all.  It's fast.  It rocks your balls off.  But I can see the Nehalem architecture turning into the elephant in the room just like Netburst was so few years ago.

I would almost bet money that in a couple years time, they'll be looking back on the Atom, and adapting that technology into mainstream processors by adding multiple low-power cores but at an increased scale, just like the late Core microarchitecture, which took technology from the Pentium M (which itself took technology from 2 generations prior - the Pentium 3).  

Atom will likely turn into the Cell 2.0.  :)  Funny that.

January 6, 2009 3:39 PM
 

tayme said:

@mikegalos - To what in Barnum's life were you referring, then? Care to elaborate?

--tayme

January 6, 2009 3:49 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

It's so interesting to see the company that barely even thinks about Apple (per "mikegalos") putting out stuff like this on the eve of CES. I'm sure MonkeyBoy considers Apple to be an annoying little gnat buzzing around his inflated head, but he sure is spending a lot of time swatting at it

January 6, 2009 3:52 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

DRWAM, in the interest of full disclosure, I'll say that (aside from the obvious issues of speed), I almost prefer running the Quicksilver machines. 10.5 is very capable, but still buggy IMHO. Remarkably, on those ancient 867 MHz machines, I can simultaneously edit video, burn a DVD, and have mail, IM and any number of other programs running without a hitch. The first time I imported video while burning a DVD I thought for sure I'd blow the system up, but it ran perfectly. The only other system that I've enjoyed as much was the PowerMac 9500/150 (yes, 150 MHz) that ran an Avid system. That thing was a rock. Hard to believe you could push video through it, but it was an amazing system.

January 6, 2009 3:54 PM
 

tayme said:

@Avro -

The Ivy league is hardly a cross section of the US. It is mostly the rich that send their kids to one of those schools. Try some of the state run universities, and I would guess that the numbers are much lower.

I still laugh about the Genius Bar comment though. Those guys are not very good at what they do. Or are they, they always try to sell you something new, rather than fix the problem. Now, as far as sending in something to Apple Support...I have never tried that, so they very well may be top notch.

And now it is MS' turn to exploit a truth...Apple computers generally cost more than a Windows based PC. They may as well run with it. It is a true statement.

--tayme

January 6, 2009 3:54 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"I still laugh about the Genius Bar comment though. Those guys are not very good at what they do. Or are they, they always try to sell you something new, rather than fix the problem."

And when I already said that, losta and johnpapola didn't believe me.

"And now it is MS' turn to exploit a truth...Apple computers generally cost more than a Windows based PC. They may as well run with it. It is a true statement."

Ditto there too.

January 6, 2009 4:00 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"And when I already said that, losta and johnpapola didn't believe me."

Citation, please?

I don't remember responding to a comment like that; I did, however, laugh at your pathetic attempts to troll Apple stores for customers.

My experience with Apple support has been generally excellent, unlike my nightmare with DELL, not to mention the local Bargain Basement PC Hut Shops (aka "McWae Shacks"). I've never had to deal with an Apple "Genius", but the sales reps I've met in the stores have run the gamut. Some are merely OK, others are brilliant. Just like everywhere, I suppose. I had always assumed the vetting of the folks behind the "Genius" bar was better, but I could be wrong. Certainly the success of the Apple stores would indicate they're doing something right, despite the anecdotal evidence supplied by PC Vendor "Waethorn".

January 6, 2009 4:19 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"I don't remember responding to a comment like that; I did, however, laugh at your pathetic attempts to troll Apple stores for customers."

What's more pathetic?  Me picking up customers from those stores?  Or the people that work there?

Ask my customers that and see what they have to say.

January 6, 2009 5:18 PM
 

johnpapola said:

May I just point out that Waethorn has wasted his time bashing the G4 and discussing the compatibility of the as-yet-unreleased Snow Leopard.  In addition to be lord of the shills, he's grand master of the strawmen.

January 6, 2009 5:19 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"May I just point out that Waethorn has wasted his time bashing the G4 and discussing the compatibility of the as-yet-unreleased Snow Leopard."

Time.  Well.  Spent.

BTW:  Are you going to keep spouting lies in every comment you create on your Intui-type keyboard?  I thought you were done with this page after all.

January 6, 2009 5:52 PM
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