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Time to queue up 2009's first 'Year of the Linux Desktop' joke

Well, maybe not.

In this New York Times article, Ubuntu Linux is the focus, and I'm OK with that: Ubuntu is, by a wide margin, the only Linux version that has any chance (albeit one of the snowball in hell variety) of succeeding with consumers. But I think the key here is not "consumers in the US and other developed nations" but rather "new computer users in emerging markets."

Created just over four years ago, Ubuntu (pronounced oo-BOON-too) has emerged as the fastest-growing and most celebrated version of the Linux operating system, which competes with Windows primarily through its low, low price: $0.

More than 10 million people are estimated to run Ubuntu today, and they represent a threat to Microsoft’s hegemony in developed countries and perhaps even more so in those regions catching up to the technology revolution.

“If we’re successful, we would fundamentally change the operating system market,” Mr. Shuttleworth said during a break at the gathering, the Ubuntu Developer Summit. “Microsoft would need to adapt, and I don’t think that would be unhealthy.”

The article is worth reading. But I'd like to point out that, for the mainstream tech market, the notion that Linux is ever going to compete effectively with Windows is somewhat laughable. In fact, most people feel that Linux has been bypassed by Mac OS X in that regard, even though Apple's system continues to hover below the 4 percent market share figure worldwide.

But I wonder if that's fair. As I noted in an earlier blog post, Keith Curtis, a former Microsoft employee, has just published a book in which he argues that Linux and other open source software solutions will eventually bury the software giant. You can find that book, After the Software Wars, here.

I've run numerous kinds of Linux since the mid-1990s, but maybe I need to be paying more attention to this stuff.

Published Jan 11 2009, 10:17 AM by pthurrott
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Comments

 

Lindy said:

Its the applications holding back Linux plain and simple.  

If there were a Office, Photoshop, Quickbooks and others that have been ported to OS X then Linux, especially Ubuntu would be a series threat or at least be eating at MS market share.

As more and more stuff gets put in the cloud Linux has a better shot, well non MS cloud stuff that fully works with out IE and a client of some sort.

I love how you always tout World Market share, when you and MS live in the US and we are still even in our depressed times the largest consumer of goods, especially electronics.

These numbers seem to show the same trend....

apple20.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/.../mac-internet-share-hits-record-882-windows-drops-below-90

In the US MS is loosing market share.  89% is still totally dominant but sometimes I wonder if MS is where IBM once was, on the verger of a fall because they are too big and have lost touch in some places.

Only time will tell.

January 11, 2009 8:31 AM
 

DRWAM said:

More people probably use a pirated copy of Windows than they do Linux. I have read that you can buy a copy for just 1 dollar in some countries. These are obviously not tallied in sales, but could get to internet share, although not all Windows PC have internet access, or at least full access. Our company has a WAN that spans several townships, but only through the intranet. Only a handful can access the internet. Is there any way that they are ALL included in this internet traffic?

January 11, 2009 9:01 AM
 

DavidR91 said:

"But I'd like to point out that, for the mainstream tech market, the notion that Linux is ever going to compete effectively with Windows is somewhat laughable."

Linux has all the time in the world to mature - it doesn't need to earn money or get a quick success, because there's no "time limit". It this respect it can't be "killed". Sure, it may fall out of favor, but it won't disappear in the same way a commercial product would.

For this reason, completely disregarding its ability to gain any momentum against Windows is stupid. It only needs MS to make a single major slip up, and it can get in the door. The reverse isn't true, because Linux is not entirely fueled by $$$ - it can die and return under as many guises as it  needs.

January 11, 2009 9:24 AM
 

Sevenmack said:

The problem with arguing that Linux will grow with the advent of Cloud Computing, Lindy, is that it first assumes that Cloud is going to happen on a widespread basis. I don't think so.

For one, broadband access remains scattered, even in the United States. There are wide swaths of this country where dial-up is spotty; broadband is often even worse. I've traveled in some parts of the Mountain West (both in US and Canada) and broadband and 3G hardly exist.

The other problem is the applications: There are some applications, most notably word processing software, accounting software and advanced graphic design software, that will likely never be fully cloud-based. The companies that use them, by nature, prefer the presumed (and sometimes, real) security that comes with having software on computers they control.

The third is that storage is cheap and getting cheaper daily: Consider that you can buy a fully-loaded laptop with 250 gigs of hard-drive space and 2 gigs RAM for as low as $500; that's cheaper than six years ago, when I got a Toshiba Satellite with just 60 gigs of hard-drive space (and 512 MB RAM) for $1,100. External hard-drives are also cheap: I bought my first external, a WD, for $120; it just had 80 gigs of storage. Today, I have a half-terabyte external hard drive that cost me about $109. You can get a 1TB external hard drive for as low as $130.

Even think about the storage on cell phones and other portable devices. Three years ago, the idea of finding a wide array of phones with 8 Gigs of internal storage, much less additional external storage, would have been ridiculed by most. One of my old phones barely had 50 megabytes of internal storage (and no slot for a MiniSD). Today, I have two phones which can take on 16-gig-plus MiniSDs; one phone has a few gigs of internal storage. This means that I can install a mobile edition of many programs if I so choose. And, by the way, let's not even forget the Zune and the iPod Touch, which can be used in amazing ways.

The low cost of storage, along with the penchant for people to not be trusting of giving it all over to the cloud and, most importantly, the spottiness of broadband coverage, means that Cloud isn't going to be the wave of the future, at least anytime soon. In the Third World, it may not even happen for decades; just because India and other countries have skipped the whole wired line development thing and jumped to cellphones doesn't mean that they are ready to go cloud; they still need the wired infrastructure in order to fully join the broadband world.

What will most likely happen is that some apps that are already in the cloud -- notably Web-based e-mail, calendars and a few apps for sharing -- will remain there, with a few mobile editions of the most-basic Notepad-style and Photoshop-style apps. Most others will remain traditionally-boxed.

January 11, 2009 9:31 AM
 

Sevenmack said:

As far as Linux is concerned: I think it may never gain more market share than it currently has, largely because of the inherent problems of open-source development. Unless there is a Mozilla Foundation-like  or Google-like entity overseeing development, it takes forever to develop and update applications. Most businesses aren't all that willing to wait for all that; they, along with consumers, don't really trust ragtag groups of developers to get the job done.

The OS's with a real shot of overtaking Windows isn't either Linux or OS-X. Both are in the mobile space. The first is Android, which has the backing of Google; there were so many Android-based laptops and portables out at CES, which really should make M'Soft shudder. The second is Symbian, which is controlled by Nokia and is already among the dominant OS for cellphones. Symbian's push to expand development of programs for phones will eventually lead to app development for laptops, especially with Android's progress on that front.

Which means MSoft better get moving with WinMo 7. Quickly.

January 11, 2009 9:39 AM
 

shark47 said:

Who knows? With netbooks becoming more and more popular, 2010 might end up being the year of the linux desktop after all. 2009, however, will remain "The Year of the Ravens!" At least, I hope it does. :)

January 11, 2009 9:51 AM
 

Sevenmack said:

But you are forgetting two things, shark47: One is Win7, which can run on many Netbooks; the incumbent manufacturers are more likely to run with MSoft than bet on Unbuntu. The other is Android, which is landing on more mobile devices such as netbooks. Again, I think the real battle will be MSoft versus Android-Google/Symbian-Nokia, not MSoft against Mac and Linux.

January 11, 2009 9:55 AM
 

kadarzsolt said:

There are several things that will get in the way of wide spread Linux:

1. Drivers: it is hard to find drivers for the variety of hardware out there and it is a LOT HARDER to actually install them to work at full capacity. People need to know command line instructions and scripting to make things happen.

2. Mature apps: this a controversial, as Linux fans always bring up the thousands of applications out there, but they are ignoring the fact that none of those compete with Windows and MAC software in real life situations.

3. Multimedia and Entertainment: I found that media playback apps are very unstable and have few of the features of their Win and MAC counterparts. Also, you should pick the 200 most popular games and see how many of them have Linux versions. My money is on 0;

4. System setup and maintenance: after using Ubuntu for some time I found that maintaining a Linux system is not so easy as it seems. Updates do come regularly (and in very large numbers) but you never know when they will conflict with things you installed for 3rd party sources. If you do find yourself in conflicting situations you can only hope that somebody already noticed that and still, you will need to read through several documentations and decide which course of action to take.

My prediction: Linux will remain fairly strong where it is now, and that is in the (extremely)  low cost web hosting market for static or low complexity sites.

January 11, 2009 10:04 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

DRWAM

"More people probably use a pirated copy of Windows than they do Linux. "

Oh, it's not even close.

Linux desktop advocates' dream is someday catching up to OS X level volumes and OS X isn't even close to the volume of pirated copies of Windows Vista or Windows XP which aren't close to the legal volumes.

To put the "Year of the Linux Desktop" in perspective, remember that when Linux first came out, people weren't beta testing Windows 7 and Mac Snow Leopard, they were testing Windows 3.1 and Macintosh System 7.

The reality is that despite the noise, the Linux desktop installed base pretty much always hovers at about the same 1% that they've been holding on to for the last 18 years.

January 11, 2009 10:11 AM
 

Sevenmack said:

Point number four is definitely right, kadarzolt. My brother, who has his own Web development business, has plenty of time to mess around with Linux and the expertise as well. Yours truly? Linux maintenance and set-up would get in the way of my main business -- policy and media consulting -- and more importantly, drive my fiancee nuts. Which is why I don't have a Linux-based computer.

One of my pals, an editor at a think tank, made the mistake of buying a Linux-based laptop (instead of buying a Vista laptop, as I recommended). He found that he spent more time on maintenance than on writing with the computer. Eventually, he ended up selling his laptop to my brother (who loves it) and got himself a Vista-based Toshiba. As a result, he's a lot happier.

Think about it: Windows was embraced by companies and average users because it was simple to set-up, use and maintain. Same with Macs, iPods and iPhones among consumers. Linux isn't all that simple to set-up and maintain; that isn't going to win market share among the Joe Averages of the world.

January 11, 2009 10:17 AM
 

DavidR91 said:

"when Linux first came out, people weren't beta testing Windows 7 and Mac Snow Leopard, they were testing Windows 3.1 and Macintosh System 7."

That's a pretty senseless comparison: Linux at that stage was pretty much just that: Linux, as in, the kernel on its own, and a few GNU tools. Linux 0.1 was in 1991, and 3.1 was released complete in 1992. Not exactly fair game.

January 11, 2009 10:21 AM
 

DRWAM said:

I was shocked when watching a TV program, possibly 60 minutes, about how easy and cheap pirated software, including Windows [it was XP at the time]. This was years ago and XP was sold for a dollar by vendors in the street, who also had movies which were yet to be released in theaters. Since then, pirating seems to only become much easier. It just don't understand how those in the US have no fear, especially if trying to update,  but I guess that there are ways to get around it or just cannot be monitored, discovered and prosecuted. It's probably not worth it for most companies [except the RIAA].

January 11, 2009 10:28 AM
 

panache1023 said:

aaaaah, good old Mike Galos....making a nice, lucid remark, that makes sense, and isn't obsessed with basing Apple.

Well done man, I knew you could do it.....it's posts like that from you that I actually enjoy reading, and don't make me so frustrated.

Keep up the good work.

Go Linux!  LOL...j/k...it's not for me :)

January 11, 2009 10:51 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

DavidR91

The comparison was that Linux has been around long enough that if people wanted a Unix clone they had plenty of opportunities back when Windows and Macintosh System were a LOT less mature and complete products.

Linux has been around since the days when Windows ran as a graphical shell on top of MS-DOS and Macintosh ran on Motorola 680x0 processors.

If a desktop Unix clone couldn't compete then, there's not a lot of compelling reason why it'll take off now.

Yet, in the Linux camp, hope springs eternal and we're getting "This coming year will be 'The Year of the Linux Desktop'" for something like the 15th year in a row.

January 11, 2009 11:00 AM
 

kadarzsolt said:

Just to illustrate how easy it is to pirate Windows (or software in general): I have legal copies of Win2K, WinXP and Vista Ultimate, but when I needed the setup disk of XP for VirtualPC (i do not use it on physical PCs anymore) I just went on downloading it and burning it on a blank CD, instead of searching for the original media.

Also, when a SP comes out it is much simpler to go and find a slipstreamed version on the internet than merging the service pack yourself with the original media.

The price of a pirated copy of Windows is just above the retail price of a blank CD or DVD ($1-$1.5). Developing nations will do little to nothing to stop this, as they need the productivity of Windows machines but have no interest in balance payments to the US.  In China most companies have 2-3 PCs with legal Windows in the front office and 15+ pirated installs for the back office workforce. Linux is hard to find...

January 11, 2009 11:02 AM
 

clindhartsen said:

So far, reading through the messages here, I think the main points of actual structured development and the time it takes for that development is what holds Linux back. For that matter, with how that community works, does it truly make sense to shift to a platform that exists in a million different flavors, with multiple GUI types to choose from, and each version having it's own flaws and levels of development.

I suppose the only thing I need to do, to keep up, is try out a quick version of Ubuntu again because, to be honest, it's been years since I've ran it.

January 11, 2009 11:08 AM
 

Toddimous said:

My prediction is that Linux will soon be a real competitor in the form of Google's Android and on the future of computing platforms, netbooks and smart phones. Microsoft will continue to dominate the desktop for some time in the developed world but will have to learn to accept much more competition in the appliance computing platform.

January 11, 2009 11:09 AM
 

Lindy said:

@Sevenmack two completely different arguments.  I actually agree with you in that the cloud is way over hyped right now.  Things are trending towards the cloud more and more, but we are WAY off right now.

Paul has recently talked about the cloud in his review of SBS 2008.  I agree with him, small companies, say 50 or less users can easily go with hosted Exchange/sharepoint.  Big companies wont/dont trust it yet and wont for a while.

On the negative side of cloud world for MS, once a small company gets used to things like hosted Exchange, they open the door for cheaper replacements like say Zimbra which from a users perspective with Outlook/Windows Mobile its no different, just WAY cheaper.

January 11, 2009 11:11 AM
 

Lindy said:

@DRWAM Window XP Pro and Office 2003 are probably the most pirated software on the planet.

They just need a "corporate key" and plenty of them are floating around.  Add to that the lower hardware requirements and it just makes them even more popular.

Vista while easy to get the bits, is harder to live with a pirated version.  You have to fake the phone home stuff, and MS is good at busting the work arounds with updates.  So if you want to update your pirated version of Vista, you fight a constant battle of it de-registering its self with hacks.  XP does not do that.  Also if you live in a place where 2gigs of RAM and a dual core CPU is a luxury XP is a lot easier on your older hardware.

January 11, 2009 11:18 AM
 

Toddimous said:

@ Sevenmack

"The OS's with a real shot of overtaking Windows isn't either Linux or OS-X. Both are in the mobile space. The first is Android, which has the backing of Google; there were so many Android-based laptops and portables out at CES, which really should make M'Soft shudder."

The heart of Android is the Linux kernel. So yes, Linux does have a shot at giving Microsoft some real competition when you have a rich company like Google developing it's own distro.

January 11, 2009 11:20 AM
 

shark47 said:

sevenmack, you're probably right. Windows is an easier sell on netbooks than Linux.

Linux (especially Ubuntu) has made a lot of strides in the last few years, but there are still some things like drive installation that can be quite painful at times.

January 11, 2009 11:24 AM
 

shark47 said:

Oh, I forgot: I'm typing this on my Windows 7 desktop. :-)

On this same machine, in the Vista partition, IE8 is a pain to use. With 7, it's a pleasure.

January 11, 2009 11:25 AM
 

Lindy said:

"So far, reading through the messages here, I think the main points of actual structured development and the time it takes for that development is what holds Linux back"

Software...Software....Software.

MS makes its core money, probably 70% or more with Windows desktop/server and office sold to corporations.

If your a corporation, and you have thousands of desktops, running Office and many other popular Windows applications there is NO WAY you can move to Linux.

There are whole groups of applications that are just not on Linux.  Show me a good replacement for Visio on Linux, or AutoCad.

Sure you could move some stuff but that would be a huge pain the ***.  Imagine opening and saving thousands upon thousands of word/excel docs in Open Office, fixing all the junk that did not convert well and saving them to OO format.  NO THANKS.

This is not to even mention controlling and updating thousands of workstations.  WSUS, SCCM, and just plain Active Directory make managing Windows so much better.

Even in small companies its hard to make the move.  They use even more Windows applications like Quickbooks and other windows applications that a big corporation does not use (People Soft etc for the big guys).  So you must find even more apps to replace them with.  The conversion of that data never goes exactly right.

OS X for small companies is more doable from a software standpoint, lots of main stream applications are on OS X, Office, Adobe, Quickboos...etc.

January 11, 2009 11:26 AM
 

kadarzsolt said:

@Lindy:

Vista has it's own "Gold keys". I will not go into details here (with respect to Paul) but you only have to modify your BIOS so that Vista can make a little OEM love to it and they will stay happy forever (or at least to the time when MS decides to screw all their hardware manufacturing partners by deactivating hundreds of millions of PCs, which they will never do).

January 11, 2009 11:28 AM
 

Lindy said:

@kadarzolt probably true.  I have a technet subscription and dont use Vista as much as I used XP, so I have not tried to get around Vista's stuff.  I remember when it first came out there were some work arounds that I mentioned.

January 11, 2009 11:33 AM
 

kadarzsolt said:

One more thing...

The original article points out one thing very clearly: if the Ubuntu project would have to live on its own, without the billionaire father, it would die in a few weeks or maybe month. That is not a business model to be followed. Bill Gates made money from the very beginning and he is giving it away by doing something more valuable than sponsoring Linux.

January 11, 2009 11:38 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Toddimous

The real question about a mainstream Android push is that if (and it's a huge if) Google does decide to pump billions of dollars into desktop Android they'd, at that point, have to fork Android from other Linux distributions and take it into a totally separate development stream. From then on, Android begins the process of becoming less and less like LInux as the two development streams diverge. This happens because Google will make changes that are based on what's good for Google even when they're a bad choice for non-Google implementations. And that's when Google loses most of the advantages of having taken the short cut of starting with somebody elses code and moves to having to support and maintain their ever more different code base while continuing to back-port fixes as required by their acceptance of GPL licensed modules.

I think the schizophrenia between the Google owned Chrome browser and Google subsidized Firefox browser are just a hint at what we'd see. (As an example, notice that yesterday the Russian distribution of Firefox switched to a non-Google search engine default)

January 11, 2009 11:44 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Oh, and for Shark's benefit...

Sent from my Windows 7 beta desktop computer

January 11, 2009 11:45 AM
 

kadarzsolt said:

Maybe Paul should make a survey to test Windows 7 adoption rate among his readers.

Hello Paul! are you there? Are you reading the comments?

maybe he is out in the kitchen...

January 11, 2009 11:53 AM
 

Lindy said:

I am going to state right now that Android Desktop does not have a snowballs chance in hell.  If faces the same problems, lack of application support.

Google does one thing right, search.  It does it super well.  Anything else they do is "ok" to who cares.

January 11, 2009 11:56 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

kadarzsolt

The interesting question will be at what point in the two week limit for beta keys will more people be using the beta of Windows 7 than are using desktop Linux.

January 11, 2009 12:05 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Lindy

Agreed on all points except one. While Google has been a one trick pony, that trick is not search, it's search driven text advertising. It's important to remember that they're an ad company first and foremost and that's what drives them.

January 11, 2009 12:07 PM
 

DRWAM said:

Good points Mike.

A few years back, vendors of medical equipment were seeking to switch to open platform software. This just about all disappeared as we moved more into the digital age, including the cloud, which is heavily relied upon by hospital systems [HIPPA compliance is paramount of course]. GE sold and still sells their upper level Workstation for many 3D reconstruction apps, which is Red Hat. Several apps have been ported to the XP PACS workstation, but have limited utility as it's quite watered down. So what did GE do? Instead of beefing up the XP PACS WS, they improved the Red Hat WS and ask for a hefty upgrade fee. We users [radiologists] complain, but it seemed to fall on deaf ears. I have 3 full service imaging centers, and won't buy the upgrade.

January 11, 2009 12:09 PM
 

DRWAM said:

BTW, Virtua Health system cloud has been down all morning.

"The page cannot be displayed

Explanation: The Web server connection was closed."

January 11, 2009 12:17 PM
 

kadarzsolt said:

I think we already passed that point. Take a look at the number of seeds and peers for the several torrents offering Windows 7 (and it has been going on since late December). One of the 32bit torrents, that has been uploaded 15 days ago now has 11000 active downloaders. Demand for 64bit is lower, with approx. 4000 downloaders. Note that these are active numbers, many downloaders delete the torrents after finishing.

Also: many users got keys for both 32 and 64 bit, showing they intend to install on more than one machine (desktop, notebook)

January 11, 2009 12:18 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

kadarszolt

Probably not yet. There are almost 10,000,000 Linux desktop users out there worldwide. (Compared with about 35,000,000 Mac and 1,000,000,000+ Windows users)

The old limit for the beta was going to be 2,500,000 plus the beta users in MSDN and TechNet+ and the technical beta sites.

It'll probably be not that much above the 10M mark for beta users with the hard limit removed but the 2 week limit imposed.

Now, the Vista beta, being unlimited, definately surpassed the Linux installed bas by a lot.

January 11, 2009 12:26 PM
 

techfan said:

I downloaded and ran Ubuntu inside Windows as a program (I really like that feature) but when I went to adobe.com to download Flash and saw that there were a few options and not knowing which to download, I gave up. Then when I managed to download the correct Flash version, I didn't know how to install it. I right-clicked the zip file, I double clicked it... nothing. I finally went to into the Terminal and did a Y/N option to install Flash.

Maybe I did something wrong, but something as easy as installing Flash should be have taken me all those steps?

I still have my copy of Ubuntu but I mainly use it to "play" with it. Ubuntu Linux is not for me. It's nice though.

January 11, 2009 12:26 PM
 

adamb1000 said:

I've tried Desktop Linux a while back but I just couldnt get into it.  I always came back to Windows.  I did enjoy my time using OS X for a year though full time.  Only OS I could consider switching to from Windows but I doubt it'll ever happen.

I think Linux has terrible market share because Linux is portrayed as being developed by a bunch of kids living in there parents basement.

January 11, 2009 1:01 PM
 

fria said:

I walk the line on this subject as I like both Windows and Linux. As I see it, the biggest reason Linux doesn't have more market share is that Windows got a big head start in establishing what an OS should be. There is no physical  reason Linux can't run any program Windows can as long as software is written for it, and there is the crux. The rest is clicking and typing. And Ubuntu, although very popular right now, is barely different from and other Linux distro, so if Ubuntu does well, they all do well.  So I don't see it being so laughable that Linux could gain market share in the future. One unforeseen event could be enough to completely change the playing field, and Linux is capable enough to take Window's place.

January 11, 2009 1:02 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

adamb1000

"I think Linux has terrible market share because Linux is portrayed as being developed by a bunch of kids living in there parents basement."

I'd say a bigger problem is that Linux seems to be developed FOR a bunch of kids living in their parents' basement.

January 11, 2009 1:04 PM
 

Ocean said:

>>More people probably use a pirated copy of Windows than they do Linux. <<

This.

And it kills me to admit it, but probably...

>>more people be using the beta of Windows 7 than are using desktop Linux<<

...this as well.

Queuing up my copy of Win 7 in Virtualbox right now...

January 11, 2009 1:06 PM
 

Ocean said:

Mike, must you insult everyone who doesn't think or act like you?

January 11, 2009 1:11 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

fria

The problem with thinking that Linux would succeed if it weren't for the huge head start that Windows had in the market includes the following:

The Unix design (which Linux uses as a model) predates personal computers themselves and predates Windows by over a decade and predates Windows popularity by over two decades.

Linux itself came out in the early 1990s in the Windows 3.x era and at the time the dominent OS in the personal computer space was MS-DOS

Macintosh came out before both Windows and Linux and didn't become dominent

Windows has had several major disruption level changes since then (the change to 32-bit, the change to the NT kernel, the change to web based computing) that to a large degree reset the playing field at least a fair amount.

Neither GEM nor CP/M nor TopView nor VisiON nor BeOS nor NeXT became domenent either - some of which predate Windows and all of which predate the Windows NT kernel being used on consumer desktops

I doubt there is just one reason why Windows has been the most popular desktop operating system in the world for most of two decades but First Mover Advantage is certainly not even close to the top of the list.

January 11, 2009 1:17 PM
 

Ocean said:

If Google being a one trick pony is no insult.  It's a heck of a trick.

As MS can attest to, its often hard to master other markets.  Search is Googles cash cow, and MS' is the OS and the Office market.

Not many companies are more than two or three items deep in the 'cash cow' department.

January 11, 2009 1:18 PM
 

Ocean said:

Once MS got hold of the market, no one else had any room to operate...

Chill with the revisionist history.

Anyone watching the game?

January 11, 2009 1:21 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Ocean,

I'm assuming you mean my comment:

"I'd say a bigger problem is that Linux seems to be developed FOR a bunch of kids living in their parents' basement."

If so...

That's not an insult, it's an appraisal of the level of software design that gets done in the Linux world.

Linux itself and most Linux apps are stuck thinking that they should be developed with the hobbiest Unix fan in mind and as such rarely get to the point where they're commercially competitive with their equivalents in the Windows or Mac world. They usually seem to get about 90% there and then they hit that "it's good enough" wall and don't get the last bits of ease of use and completeness that's needed to work for the average desktop user.

Again, that's not an insult. It's a choice they make and as long as they target themselves as the user, while it works for them, it won't for the vast majority of users.

January 11, 2009 1:22 PM
 

Ocean said:

January 11, 2009 1:23 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Ocean

Google being a one trick pony isn't an insult. (you seem to be seeing insults a lot today)

It is, however, their reality and they spend a lot of their time trying to find a second success beyond search driven text advertising.

(Once again, search isn't a "cash cow" for Google. Search is a cost center for them. Advertising is a cash cow that absorbs the cost of search as part of the business model)

January 11, 2009 1:26 PM
 

Ocean said:

>>It is, however, their reality and they spend a lot of their time trying to find a second success beyond search driven text advertising.<<

Thats their responability to their stockholders.  Search drives their advertising.

January 11, 2009 1:37 PM
 

kadarzsolt said:

Mike, you hit the jackpot a few comments back. Windows users are not the target customers for Linux. They are simply not interested in the insights of the OS as Linux fans are. Windows just works, with lots of mature and great apps on it, without scripting and command line tricks. At the age of 10 (or so) I was able to learn Windows 3.1 without manual or tutorials, just by trial and error. I am 27 now and I cannot learn Linux just by using it (I even find it hard to do things with long a detailed documentations).

I saw many great appliance type Linux installs (firewall, router, file server) but that is far from success in the desktop OS world.

January 11, 2009 1:43 PM
 

Sevenmack said:

>>more people be using the beta of Windows 7 than are using desktop Linux<<

I am. After a couple of weeks with the bootlegged version of Beta, I'm thinking about putting the official beta on Toshiba, whose hard drive I've upgraded to 250 gigs. On my Acer, Win7 works great as a media center and my old programs (Office 2003, Frontpage and Expression Web 1) are working quite nicely.

About Android: Sure, it does work on a Linux kernal. But its development will likely move onto a different, more Windows-like track, largely because Google is likely targeting corporate customers and small businesses. It won't be a Linux clone (if it is at the moment), but its own OS in full.

January 11, 2009 1:56 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

kadarzsolt

It's actually more confused than that. The people developing Linux want it to take over the Windows market and the companies funding Linux (IBM, Google, SUN, etc) want that even moreso.

On the other hand, they don't want to change Linux to be less of a Unix-style "just edit a few config files with case sensitive ASCII text if you want to change something" playground for techies.

And when faced with the contradiction of those two views, they either deny that there's a contradiction or think that hundreds of millions of average user will become Unix hackers if only they understood.

The sad thing is that by attaching themselves to Unixoid design like some variety of techie mollusks is that we've seen a loss of modern OS design while they keep tweaking a 40 year old architecture rather than inventing something new and exciting.

January 11, 2009 1:59 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

" At the age of 10 (or so) I was able to learn Windows 3.1"

As somebody who worked on the Windows 3.1 extended team, thanks for reminding me how old I am...

:-)

January 11, 2009 2:01 PM
 

Ocean said:

>>Windows just works, with lots of mature and great apps on it, without scripting and command line tricks.<<

So does Linux.

arstechnica.com/.../hp-introduces-command-line-free-linux-netbook

January 11, 2009 2:04 PM
 

Sevenmack said:

Yup Kadarzolt, most Windows users are like my fiancee: They want a user-friendly interface, a system that handles the work without much in the way of hiccups and limited customization that involves being able to switch out a background (such as John's Background Switcher, a sweet app, by the way), or some Rainmeter-style desktops.

When they want extensive customization they really want to do involves items that aren't tied the OS operations, such as producing a DVD-MP3 mix, a family home video DVD or a special format for memos. These things actually affect their daily lives and so they want more customization on that end. The OS tinkering that can be done with Linux? Mmmmm. Not so much.

January 11, 2009 2:05 PM
 

Ocean said:

>>The people developing Linux want it to take over the Windows market <<

No all of them.  Not by a longshot.

January 11, 2009 2:18 PM
 

Ocean said:

I wish the consumer oriented developers would win...it would be nice to have an OS with the same mojo as Firefox.

January 11, 2009 2:21 PM
 

kadarzsolt said:

One more thought before I retire to my movie for the evening:

If MS were to spin WIN7 right (with a good ad campaign and some marketing mambo-jumbo) do you think it is possible to win back some if the not-so-hard-core MAC users?

The Windows Live apps are getting better, Windows is faster, less bloated, maybe the free security of Morro will help also.

Just thinking....

Kaadi

January 11, 2009 2:22 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Um, Ocean...

That HP is designed specifically to use Linux as an embedded OS in an appliance.

Just like the gas pump at your neighborhood 7/11 or the cash register at the nearby fast food place or the ATM at the bank may run Windows Embedded, that doesn't mean they can run "lots of mature and great apps on it, without scripting and command line tricks" any more or less than that HP appliance.

January 11, 2009 2:24 PM
 

Ocean said:

Not after they've bought 'overpriced' hardware...

January 11, 2009 2:26 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

kadarzsolt

If we assume that half of the Mac users are "not-so-hard-core" then that's about 17,000,000 users.

Will Windows 7 get an additional 17M users? Probably.

Will they be existing Mac users? Some will be, but does it really matter?

Will that stop the not "not-so-hard-core" Mac users from posting on every Windows board like crazed wolverines about how their OS choice somehow makes them smarter, sexier and more tasteful than Windows users? Not a bit.

That's life in the world of software...

January 11, 2009 2:30 PM
 

Ocean said:

That HP is a lot like Windows...where users never encounter the command line.

January 11, 2009 2:31 PM
 

Ocean said:

A comment from the thread:

>>I'm a pretty recent Linux convert, and I still like a nice GUI desktop for 90% of what I do. Ubuntu was a revelation for me, because I could do pretty much everything via the GUI and didn't have to fool with the cli if I didn't absolutely need to.

I admin AS/400 machines, so I'm cool with the command line, but it seems too much like work.<<

January 11, 2009 2:36 PM
 

DRWAM said:

I think Win7 has a chance to win back some of not-so-hard-core MAC users. My 3rd grader just typed a book report on Office 2007 and found a pic and pasted it in. It did not fit on two pages and she shrunk the pic, then changed the font to get it all on one page. She did it all by herself. Parent s watching kids do this on older Win hardware then hearing good news about WIN7 may jump ship, especially after sticker shock. I mean the less expensive hardware, not comparable hardware which is close in price [except when you talk laptops of course].

January 11, 2009 2:36 PM
 

Ocean said:

28 million Linux users.

January 11, 2009 2:36 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

My favorite part of Paul's post is 'But I think the key here is not "consumers in the US and other developed nations" but rather "new computer users in emerging markets."'

That's always the line used by a doomed product. It's a variant of "we think this product would appeal to <insert somebody decidedly NOT like the speaker>"

It's that sense of "My product isn't good enough for me or for you but we can find somebody desperate enough to want it someplace where people are different from you and me" that powered the push for Smart Terminals back in the mid 1990s (like the SunRay), "diskless workstations" before that and, recently, Linux based appliances that are incompatible with virtually every existing software product.

Here's a key. If the spokesperson can't either say they use it or name a very specific niche that it serves better than other existing products, it's a "hail Mary" attempt to justify a failed product.

January 11, 2009 3:04 PM
 

Avro said:

I think this is a case of Windows fans whistling in the graveyard.  Linux is a pretty serious rival in the Enterprise space.  I know of 2 organisations with 100K+ employees who are considering it.  They may not go that way, but they are looking.  Microsoft has behaved for too long like it was the only game in town (and in reality it often was) and there are more than a few CIOs who would like to see it knocked down a peg or two.  These guys like to have choices and they don't like to be told 'we are your only choice and we will set the price'.

Microsoft and Windows fans should remember that nobody stays on top forever, not GM, not Ford, not anybody and the bigger they come, the harder they fall.  

@Mike - A nice bit of mythology there, but most Open Source software is written by people who work at companies like Cisco, Apple, HP and some are even from Mr Softie - only a little over 10% comes from the hobbyist element.

My own experience of Ubuntu was when I loaded it up on Dell laptop a deployment to Afghanistan and I used it exclusively.  My demands were light WP, email, browsing and university work but it never let me down.  Apparently it is becoming very popular with the silver haired crowd, people are setting it up on their parents' computers and it works and doesn't degrade.  I wish I had set up my Mum's Dell on it.

Windows 7, OS X and Ubuntu are all good, you would be foolish to write off any of them.

January 11, 2009 3:37 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Avro

Which part of what I'm posting are you calling mythology?

I never said that Linux wasn't developed by people working at companies. In fact, I said:

"The people developing Linux want it to take over the Windows market and the companies funding Linux (IBM, Google, SUN, etc) want that even moreso. "

Which sure gives credit to the companies spending lots of money on Linux (while quietly hoping nobody will notice and will think of Linux as some non-profit charity done by selfless techies who for some bizarre reason don't mind not getting paid while their marketing staff does).

But, of course, that doesn't change the fact that Linux is designed to be a techie toy for Unix fans that remains unusable for almost everybody and will remain a 1% player it's been for well over a decade for as long as it remains so.

January 11, 2009 3:47 PM
 

CompactDstrxion said:

I've tried Linux many times over the years and have never been able to get by without the command line. This is Linux's largest flaw.

Go on a linux help forum and ask how to do something that isn't cake simple. I guarantee the reply will almost always start with the words 'Open a terminal...'

January 11, 2009 4:21 PM
 

Avro said:

@ Mike"Linux is designed to be a techie toy for Unix fans that remains unusable for almost everybody"

If you think that I have a very nice bridge to sell you in London.  :-)

My 12 year old used a Linux laptop for homework, chat, browsing, email and loads of other things.  It took her a day to get used to it and she had never used Linux before.

January 11, 2009 4:24 PM
 

DRWAM said:

MS is said to bail out GE as well as our hospital system [Virtua] when big problems arise. I haven't heard anything bad about MS support or attitude. That's why Virtua is or will be using MS Amalga for it's IS. I still bet that there will be Mac support for docs like me. If not, I can use my $400 Vista/7 laptop:)

January 11, 2009 4:26 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Avro

The ability to launch and use existing simple apps on an already configured system isn't much of a test of an operating system especially when the basic UI is a clone of Windows.

And since you're neither an idiot or totally unaware of anything to do with computers you already know that.

January 11, 2009 4:40 PM
 

shark47 said:

"My 12 year old used a Linux laptop for homework, chat, browsing, email and loads of other things.  It took her a day to get used to it and she had never used Linux before."

That's not unusual. The UI is pretty intuitive and using it is not too difficult. The difficult part, IMHO, is setting it up and troubleshooting. While it has improved over the years, the setup process is still painful when drivers are not automatically installed. Installing certain programs that aren't available in the program manager or whatever is also pretty painful at times. Maybe I'm just more used to Windows, but then, a lot of people are.

January 11, 2009 4:42 PM
 

Ocean said:

I decided to give Ubuntu a virtual machine too...why do they love brown soooo much?

January 11, 2009 7:06 PM
 

chuckb84 said:

"I think this is a case of Windows fans whistling in the graveyard.  Linux is a pretty serious rival in the Enterprise space.  I know of 2 organisations with 100K+ employees who are considering it."

That probably overstates the seriousness of the threat, but it identifies where Linux can get a toehold. At my office, everything we do on the desktop (still running XP) could be done with Linux boxes.  The reason that's not done more--yet--is that Microsoft is the new IBM, in the sense of the old "Nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM".

Microsoft has done everything they can to keep things that way, but cracks are appearing in the facade. File formats are becoming open, and there is no business/enterprise case for Vista or Win7. None. In fact, there is a good compatibility case against switching from XP unless the switch is to something free, compatible and that will run, probably better, on existing computers.

I don't think Microsoft is in any trouble soon, but with Linux on the enterprise side and Apple on the consumer side, they should be paying attention. The situation is very different than it was 10 years ago.

January 11, 2009 7:09 PM
 

Lindy said:

"At my office, everything we do on the desktop (still running XP) could be done with Linux boxes."

Ball park how many desktops are we talking?  How would you plan to update them all?  Let the users do it?  Ubuntu from what I have seen has lots of updates.

What about applications that do have an equivalent, would just forgo them.  The applications you do replace them with, are they going to allow you to easily work with your outside business partners?

You ever really open a heavily formatted Word Doc in Open Office?  In my experience not even a heavily formatted document never opens clean.  There is always something to fix.  Do that 50,000 times, it will probably get old.

What about user training?  Help Desk training?  How much will that cost?  More than just sticking with Windows?

I do agree with you that right this moment there are no reasons to justify the cost of switching to Vista or Windows 7 from XP, none what so ever.  MS will make reasons for you, but not updating it.  Then in 2014 they will stop patching it, so you have time.

People will bring up security but in most organizations that have more than say 300 users probably have an IT department, and that IT department starts to do things, like put in lots of protection....firewalls, layers of AV, appliances that do AV and Antispam for email, proxies that GREATLY restrict where are user can go in the internet, and hopefully no users run as ADMINS on their own PC's.  All of which make the new security in Vista/7 irrelevant.  

On a home PC running Windows XP, with no password, running as a full admin, jacked right into their DSL/Cable modem, Vista would probably go a long way in saving your bacon, provided some friend that just knows enough to be dangerous has not turned off UAC for you:(

January 11, 2009 7:42 PM
 

Lindy said:

Just fired up my VM of Ubuntu 8.10 that I setup back in November for the first time since then.

Wow only 104 updates in the list for 133meg:)

January 11, 2009 7:47 PM
 

boyreinvented said:

The sad thing is we should ALL want Ubuntu to succeed.

This is a product given away for free. The people who make it, make it because they want to, not because they are paid to do so. It's refreshing to see people doing something for the love of it and not for the cash at the end. We should all support them.

January 11, 2009 8:19 PM
 

subzerohitman721 said:

I've used Ubuntu and it reminded me a lot of Windows 98. Although it was way more stable than 98, I really felt at odds with the OS because of the lack of mainstream file format support. When I read that you had to download a third party media player just to gain it, my first thought was this feels a lot where Windows 95/98 was at during its launch.

My biggest argument against any Linux OS gaining mainstream acceptance is the fact there are approximately 100 different versions, spanning several distros, and several different distribution packaging formats. Each one is like different fiefdom's spanning the Linux kingdom. They lack the unified synergy of a Microsoft or an Apple. They lack the marketing and resources of a major corporation. You have all these braves and all these wannabe chiefs. Linus Torvald's and Richard Stallman have failed to be the "Bill Gates" or "Steve Jobs."

This failure to harness all these people and resources to create true competition ultimately keeps Linux as a niche product.

I will have to admit that Ubuntu is probably a few versions away from reaching the magic mix of technologies to achieve real mass market success. However, without the advertising and market push, it won't happen. Also, big market retailers like Wal-Mart and Dell have tried for years to push Linux based OSes and they've failed miserably in the market. There is virtually no demand. This reminds me of the debate between the Republican, Democratic, and third parties. Everyone hates either big established party but the majority of folks has the balls to openly support a third party. So it keeps the duopoly party system firmly entrenched.

However, I do feel that Linux has a future as a device based OS. I think its small enough and efficient enough to have a mass market future in the electronic device arena. I do think its desktop chances are pretty much done. Its Microsoft or Apple unless somebody comes up with a game changer.

January 11, 2009 8:56 PM
 

Ocean said:

>I've used Ubuntu and it reminded me a lot of Windows 98.<

Must have been a really old version.  Try a newer one..

>>lack of mainstream file format support<<

Upgrade.  The most recent versions can exchange the most common files seamlessly with Mac OS X and with Windows.

January 11, 2009 9:10 PM
 

subzerohitman721 said:

@ Ocean,

The last version of Ubuntu I used was Hardy Heron  8.04 LTS, released on 4-24-2008. I thought it was pretty good but still lacking the polish and file format support.

Even the PulseAudio developer  Lennart Poettering, stated that Ubuntu's use of this program was horribly implemented. He said,  "it's a mess." and he stated "the software that currently breaks your audio."

lwn.net/.../299211

This article was written September 18, 2008. So many Linux distros have their work cut out for them.

January 11, 2009 9:43 PM
 

gorath said:

My mother runs a PC on Ubuntu, and has no real issues with it. She uses it for typing letters, emailing and IMing, and that's about it.

However, recently, it has occurred to us that playback of video is woeful. She was trying to watch something on the BBC's i-player, and it just would not play back smoothly, even though it was fully buffered. This was on a dual core machine running a geforce 6600.

Now she's asking me if she can have windows on it so she can "watch telly on it like mine"

(I haven't even started to explain why she can't download videos to watch later on it yet)

I've dipped my toes into the linux waters a few times over the years, and the "great performance" that is bandied around just isn't apparent, sorry.

For example, try running Compiz fusion on a geforce 8800GTS, at 1920x1200 resolution, and the performance is abysmal, and distracting. In contrast, Vista's Aero runs smooth as silk.

I still like Linux for some uses, but it is definitely not my cup of tea for full time use.

Oh, and another recent Ubuntu curiosity. If a printer has an issue, like running out of paper, how do you get to the print queue to cancel the job?

Click on the printer icon in the taskbar, right? well, yes, but what if you've done that, then closed the window, and then decide you want to go back to it?

as far as i can tell, it's impossible without delving into the command line :-o

January 11, 2009 9:45 PM
 

gorath said:

Oh yeah, and of course, I'm coming at you from windows 7 legit beta!

January 11, 2009 9:47 PM
 

Waethorn said:

Ok, a lot going on here.

The simple truth is that Linux is hiding behind open source development.  The real "development" and use of Linux comes from companies that "borrow" ideas (or code) from the "the community" and just adapt it to fit behind their closed-source trademarks.  Those companies are Novell, Red Hat, and yes, even Ubuntu.  Ubuntu has many components that aren't open source.  Richard Stallman hates it.  So, NO, Ubuntu is not "the face of open source".

Aside from that, I don't see anything exciting from it.  For one company to pick and choose from the bajillion combinations of software packages available to create a "distribution" of Linux, it's just not much different from any other distribution available.  There's just nothing mind-blowingly different that can't be added to any other version of Linux, aside from the very few proprietary tools.

....and that's where Linux fails as an open-source platform.

If you think choosing a Windows version is hard (it's not really - you should be using 64-bit by now, and picking from 3 isn't that difficult), think about how many hundreds of "official", current forks or distributions are available for *nix.  Besides, Joe User doesn't want to deal with dependencies, or compiling an OS kernel because their xyz hardware doesn't have a binary driver available, and they certainly don't want to know that they can't just use all the common software already existance that people use practically every day.  Software from Microsoft, Adobe, Apple, Corel, etc....

If you try and tell someone that, sure, they can run a hackneyed API copy-job on Linux that probably borders on patent infringement so that Windows programs can run, they'll question your reasoning as well as your sanity.

January 11, 2009 10:05 PM
 

Waethorn said:

If Linux has a chance in hell of being a real player, Mark Shuttleworth and Linux Torvalds should quit their day jobs, get together and start a new company, hire the KDE and Gnome teams, and then take all of their assets over to the patent office.  Then they should sue Red Hat and Novell for backdated royalties until they have to close their doors.  They can clean up by hiring all of the former dev and support employees from those companies.  Add in another 50,000 or so basement developers from "the community", and then start charging for Linux....and then, just for the fun of it, sue the sh*t out of Richard Stallman for slander.

January 11, 2009 10:27 PM
 

Ocean said:

>>file format support<<

What is this problem I keep hearing about?

January 11, 2009 10:30 PM
 

vijju said:

i would agree with waethorn may be redhat and novell should indeed be busted for copying code from the opensource  for their own profit...it is ver much an act of chikenary on the part of NOVELL to have a pact with microsoft for co-development of some products..NOVELL plays a double game has openSuSE on one hand and commercial enterprise editions on the other....the only true open source platform i ever used seems to be Fedora....

January 12, 2009 12:07 AM
 

Avro said:

@ Mike

"The ability to launch and use existing simple apps on an already configured system isn't much of a test of an operating system especially when the basic UI is a clone of Windows."

@shark47

"The difficult part, IMHO, is setting it up and troubleshooting. While it has improved over the years, the setup process is still painful when drivers are not automatically installed. Installing certain programs that aren't available in the program manager or whatever is also pretty painful at times. Maybe I'm just more used to Windows, but then, a lot of people are."

Actually I would say that Gnome looks more to OS X than Windows.  As far as set up and configuration goes I have done installs of XP, Leopard and Ubuntu in the last year and none of them were difficult to setup within an hour.  In fact XP was the most troublesome with the necessity to activate.

Ubuntu is essentially plug and play (no driver search) and in fact wireless was easier than XP.  If you have something very exotic to install maybe it would be difficult - but for the average user peripherals, installing new apps and updating is just as easy or easier than Windows.

@Lindy

"Ball park how many desktops are we talking?  How would you plan to update them all?  Let the users do it?  Ubuntu from what I have seen has lots of updates.

What about applications that do have an equivalent, would just forgo them.  The applications you do replace them with, are they going to allow you to easily work with your outside business partners?

You ever really open a heavily formatted Word Doc in Open Office?  In my experience not even a heavily formatted document never opens clean.  There is always something to fix.  Do that 50,000 times, it will probably get old."

For most people there would be equivalent apps and they are compatible.

Actually Word isn't great with long and complex documents, okay for a letter but so are most WPs.  For big items you are probably going to use .pdf or something like LaTex.

@ Lindy

"What about user training?  Help Desk training?  How much will that cost?  More than just sticking with Windows?"

A lot less it seems.  The Economist reported last year that one Enterprise with 50 employees went over to Linux.  The cost of training staff to use Open Office was the same as the price of one Microsoft licence and some of their computers required up to 5 Microsoft licences.

An issue for some would be outside support (we provide our own, so not an issue for us).  Microsoft support is pretty commonplace and hence cheaper than Open Source support - for now.

January 12, 2009 4:23 AM
 

robertsjoe said:

All you Microsoft fanboyz always retreat to the market share line. Did Microsoft send you a memo like the "Apple Tax" one they recently sent out to their drones?

Again with the market share line. Means nothing. Windows has a greater market share than OS X, yet OS X is greatly superior to Windows. Market share means nothing when it comes to the better OS. OS X beats Windows (including 7) easily. You, like the millions of other sheep, are using a flaky piece of software in Windows. Microsoft is to operating systems as McDonald's is to fine dining. So the only thing you can claim is market share, because you can't claim taste, ease of use, security and stability.

Stop being sheep. Stop eating the *** operating sandwich that is Windows.

January 12, 2009 4:28 AM
 

Sevenmack said:

"Actually Word isn't great with long and complex documents, okay for a letter but so are most WPs.  For big items you are probably going to use .pdf or something like LaTex."

If you're talking about putting together a graphic design-heavy document for publication, then certainly PDF is best. That's also true with InDesign or Quark.

But when one is talking about complex documents for the office, most of those don't involve a lot of graphic design. They are complex because they include something like PowerPoint slides or a graph or chart. For internal corporate use, Word does trump most other WP program; the editing functions -- including being able to mark, approve and delete changes -- is especially robust for that kind of use. For my line of work, which involves a lot of complex editing among different players before publication, Google Docs and other WP software just doesn't get the job done. It's all about Word. Which is why Linux won't cut it for most of us.

January 12, 2009 6:47 AM
 

Jeqq said:

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January 12, 2009 6:53 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

What bothers me about this whole discussion (aside from horrific way "vijju" bastardized "chicanery" into "chickanery")  is the notion that for Microsoft to "win", everyone else has to lose. Clearly, there's a place for Ubuntu and other Linux distributions, but the WinJihadists have to trounce out every cliché in the books to discredit them. Comments from Windows Warriors such as "mikegalos" ("I'd say a bigger problem is that Linux seems to be developed FOR a bunch of kids living in their parents' basement.") are just ridiculous.

Some of the criticism is valid. But the level of near-hatred for what is, at the end of the day, a computer operating system is something I just don't understand.

January 12, 2009 6:55 AM
 

aemarques said:

@Lindy (first post): yes, you're right - the problem lies with software, not the OS that's under it.

Contrary to popular belief, peopl don't buy operating systems; they buy solutions for their problems, and these solutions are, well, solved, with software.

The platform with the most/best software, wins.

January 12, 2009 7:03 AM
 

DRWAM said:

Many looked at Linux because of savings and others for curiosity, while still others for rebellion. However, even before these horrific economic times, the price of a half decent Windows PC has dropped so low, that many would not bother to give up a safe support system and compatibility for the unknown. Lets face it, if you can buy a $400 Vista laptop and get support, why would you bother with Linux. Delete the crapware, or install a clean copy of Vista and life's good. It was too good a deal for even a Mac user! Free is good, but a close price with support and compatibility is obviously better.

January 12, 2009 7:09 AM
 

Avro said:

@Sevenmack

"If you're talking about putting together a graphic design-heavy document for publication, then certainly PDF is best. That's also true with InDesign or Quark."

I'm in the Army and we use .pdf rather than Word for large documents, it's better and more portable and you certainly don't want someone to alter it!

Actually Word is bloated and buggy and even Paul has mentioned that the interface is so convoluted that the 10 most requested new features have been there for the last 3 versions.  ;-)

MacFormat this month did a review of WPs for the Mac and 2nd from the bottom was Word and the only thing that saved it from bottom place was its compatibility with Word!!!

@Sevenmack

"It's all about Word"

No, simply put, it is not a very good Word Processor.

I do a lot of  wordcrunching and unless someone requests Word I do it in Scrivener or Nisus Writer Pro and send it in .rtf or .pdf.  Usually I get 3 requests a year for something in Word.  Most professional writers do not use Word.  It is a secretarial tool, not a writer's tool.

www.nytimes.com/.../06wwln-medium-t.html

stevenpoole.net/.../goodbye-cruel-word

January 12, 2009 7:18 AM
 

Dipsh t Admin said:

"Stop being sheep."

I hate to bring up this old standby, but pot, meet kettle.

"Free is good, but a close price with support and compatibility is obviously better."

I think you've summed up the situation quite well.

January 12, 2009 7:21 AM
 

chuckb84 said:

@Avro

"Actually Word isn't great with long and complex documents, okay for a letter but so are most WPs.  For big items you are probably going to use .pdf or something like LaTex."

I've used TeX since 1983. I love TeX, and LaTex even more, but NOBODY outside a small scientific community uses TeX, or even LaTeX.

Everyone uses Word. I agree that this is a habit, and a bad habit, but it is nonetheless reality. As Office formats are opened up, hopefully competitors will get better at removing the need for Word, but the document interchange format is already settled and it is .doc. I don't like that at all, but I don't see it changing.

January 12, 2009 7:41 AM
 

shark47 said:

"Everyone uses Word. I agree that this is a habit, and a bad habit, but it is nonetheless reality."

I don't know. It's just a WP software. Use what you want to and what you think will get the job done. If you believe Word is the best tool for the job, use it, otherwise, don't. There's no such thing as a good habit or a bad habit here.

I've used other WP software and just like I'm comfortable with Windows, I'm comfortable with Word too and use it quite frequently along with other Office software. I don't see the need to change my habits because some people on the internet don't approve of it.

January 12, 2009 7:51 AM
 

boyreinvented said:

Word is horrible. It just isn't user friendly. I actually find MS Publisher way better for doing any word processing over Word because it is quicker and more flexible.

However, since moving to Mac, I use Pages and love it.

January 12, 2009 8:03 AM
 

DRWAM said:

I am hooked on Office 2008 and Entourage is one of my favorite apps. My 3rd grade daughter can use Word and PowerPoint [from Office 2007 on XP] very well, as she uses it in school. Her younger sisters use Word to make a collage of pics, several times weekly. But this is OT.

Dipsh, check your PM for my car saga update.

January 12, 2009 8:11 AM
 

tayme said:

@sharky - "I don't know. It's just a WP software. Use what you want to and what you think will get the job done. If you believe Word is the best tool for the job, use it, otherwise, don't. There's no such thing as a good habit or a bad habit here. "

That is the very same thing that I have been saying about Operating Systems for a long time now! Thanks for agreeing!

--tayme

January 12, 2009 8:12 AM
 

realtestman said:

Another robertsjoe trolling jem.  Looks like he needs to wake up from his dream, again.

January 12, 2009 8:13 AM
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