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Can Microsoft do what it's never done before: Make a new Windows version run better on old/low-end hardware than its predecessor?

I broached this topic in a previous blog post, but Saul Hansell at the NYT Bits Blog examines Microsoft's efforts to de-bloat Windows 7 so it runs well on netbook computers. You know, unlike Vista.

The biggest question facing Windows 7 is whether Microsoft can really think small.

When designing Windows Vista, Microsoft put a lot of effort into taking advantage of sophisticated computer hardware, with fancy graphics on the surface and lots of new processing tricks inside. Microsoft says this positioned the operating system for the future, despite the complaining of many users who grumble that Vista has bogged down their computers with unneeded frills and incompatibilities.

While there is some more high-powered glitz coming in Windows 7, the real challenge for Microsoft isn’t the latest multicore superchip, but making the operating system work well, and affordably, on stripped-down PCs, netbooks and other small devices.

He comes to some interesting conclusions after talking to people at CES. These include:

Linux has not caught on for consumer PCs ... the vast majority of buyers have chosen to spend $30 to $50 more to get Windows on inexpensive netbooks.

Agreed, though as previously discussed, I'm curious about the future of Linux now in ways I haven't been for some time.

The early signs are that Windows 7 can run better on smaller computers than Windows Vista. Indeed, the company has been boasting about how little memory the operating system uses.

This is most likely true, though as I noted previously, Windows 7 is not "magic," i.e. it won't make an obsolete computer suddenly viable again. What Windows 7 does do is run better on low-end modern computers using the Intel Atom processor.

Microsoft will cut prices somewhat for Windows on small computers

I have no info about this one, but Hansell points out that Microsoft charges less for Windows on netbooks and makes up for it in volume. So much for Apple's theory about there being no money to be made in that market.

Microsoft has lost its way in consumer electronics

That's a nice bit of speculation. But it's wrong. And here's why: Microsoft has never found its way in consumer electronics, ever. In fact, every single consumer electronics product that Microsoft has made has lost money. Think about it. Even the Xbox 360, which the software giant touts as some kind of success, will never, ever make up the billions of R&D it plowed through. And that's their most successful CE product. Microsoft has never been a force in CE. So they can't have lost their way. They've just simply never made it work.

The list of Microsoft consumer stinkbombs is a mile high. Media Center. MediaRoom. UltimateTV. WebTV. PlaysForSure/Windows Media DRM. Zune. That Outlook-compatible phone from years back. Any product with the words "Microsoft" and "Home" in them. The Teddy Ruxbin bear thing. (And you thought I'd forgotten.) Don't get me wrong: Many of these are good, even great products. But if it's just me and 17 other people using them, what's the point?

There's a side discussion here to be had about Apple's more successful approach with CE, and Microsoft's supposed softening towards Apple. I'd just note that market forces have aligned to erase some of the issues that dogged cross platform compatibility before, especially around digital music. A year ago, most iTunes-purchased music was both junk (128K AAC) and incompatible (FairPlay DRM encoded). Today, virtually all (and soon, all) iTunes-purchased music will be of incredibly high quality (256K AAC) and very compatible with the current (Xbox 360, Zune) and coming generation (Windows 7 Windows Media Player and Media Center) Microsoft products. The world is changing and maybe taking a Windows Live-type approach--where Microsoft simply works with the competition--is the way to go.

Just a thought. And I wasn't even at CES.

Comments

 

weedmonk said:

I don't get why you underrate and underestimate Media Center. You're might be right as far extenders and HTPC uptake, but as feature part of Windows its gaining a lot of traction.

Last fall I went back to my school on a recruiting trip and you would not believe how many people in the dorms are using their laptops to watch TV.  Extenders are only a small part of MC's footprint now but will eventually grow.

January 14, 2009 9:16 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

My but Paul's in a cranky mood today...

January 14, 2009 9:21 AM
 

DRWAM said:

Netbooks with Windows 7 may be become the favorite companion of college students. It could handle all scholastic their needs and media needs/hobbies as well. Use Skype and/or Magicjack for phone service, and they are pretty well good to go. Maybe it can replace expensive cell phone service [Magicjack].

January 14, 2009 9:25 AM
 

DRWAM said:

Weedster, I bought a TV tuner card for $20, to watch and record TV on my XP PC. This was 3 or 4 years ago and had acceptable quality. I can only imagine what they can do today. The card I selected had a standard coax [F conector] for cable TV. Did the dorm use need coax or OTA antenna?

January 14, 2009 9:41 AM
 

tayme said:

@Paul - "The list of Microsoft consumer stinkbombs is a mile high..."

You forgot my favorite...The SPOT watch!

--tayme

January 14, 2009 9:48 AM
 

tayme said:

@DRWAM - I am a huge fan of Media Center. I have a tuner card in my PC that has both the coax in and the A/V in. It is not a high end card...and it works great. I posted the other day about this, but I'll repeat it here...I have DirecTV connected via the A/V in and get pretty decent quality recordings...That is on my desktop...I can copy the dvr-ms files to my MBP running Vista and view them on the go, too!!! I've thought about building a MC PC for the living room, since the daughter took the 360 away to college. There are some pretty cool cases that Waethorn has posted links to in the past.

--tayme

January 14, 2009 9:58 AM
 

kadarzsolt said:

One thing would give life to Media Center: Vesa mountable PCs (can be attached to the back side of a TV or monitor) that have the following features

1. relatively high performance (dual core celeron or Pentium Dual Core)

2. fair amount of memory (one 2GB stick might do)

3. have built in tuner

4. be very silent, maybe even run with passive cooling

Such a PC would not need legacy ports, like COM, LPT, PS2 and would replace large PC cases that are loud because of the fans on the PSU, CPU and GPU.

The Vesa mountable PCs I have seen are underpowered for Vista/7 Media Center and lack TV Tuners (Via and ASUS makes such boxes).

January 14, 2009 9:59 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

tayme

Actually, I use a SPOT watch every day and dread the day it dies. I get news alerts, sync'd events from my Outlook calendar, local travel times with real-time traffic for different routes (right now taking the I-90 bridge rather than SR 520 will save you 15 minutes on a trip from Seattle to Redmond) , IM from Messenger. It's definitely saved me many, many times.

Of course the SPOT technology didn't fail, it just moved over to the GPS navigation units (both 3rd party and built-in) where it's a little less UI constrained. Still, though, it'd take a LOT to get me to give mine up

January 14, 2009 10:00 AM
 

shark47 said:

I think Media Center will take off when they make the Internet TV thing better. A collaboration with Hulu would definitely help.

January 14, 2009 10:04 AM
 

Waethorn said:

"It could handle all scholastic their needs and media needs/hobbies as well."

Sorry, but just no.  Many colleges and universities in Canada require specific computer hardware and software licensing for their students.  Most now require domain rights, and the only way to get that is with a Windows version that supports domain join.  That excludes Windows XP Home, and Vista Home versions.  Also, many tech courses require that students use systems with enough processing power to run things like Autocad, 3D Studio or Maya, 3rd-party network connection software for wireless, etc.

"There are some pretty cool cases that Waethorn has posted links to in the past."

I like the ATX cases with the built-in 7" LCD touch screens on the front.  They're ideal for a jukebox PC running Vista Media Center.

January 14, 2009 10:16 AM
 

Waethorn said:

@Doc:

Most college IT departments specifically lay out specs for each course.  I tell any college kid and/or their parents to consult the IT department FIRST before even looking at buying a computer.

Some schools even require that you lease the computers from them for a huge amount of money.

January 14, 2009 10:18 AM
 

Avro said:

On my visit to Canada last year I noticed a large number of MacBooks in use. The University was the largest Mac dealer in the area and it was a big University.  I asked about any problems using Mac and was told no.  There was a wireless University network the students used and it really did not make any difference whether you were using Windows, OS X or Linux.

January 14, 2009 10:30 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"In fact, every single consumer electronics product that Microsoft has made has lost money."

I'm so glad to know that came from you, because whenever anyone who uses an Apple Inc. product points it out, we're labeled as part of the "iCabal" when, in fact, we're just pointing out the truth.

"The Teddy Ruxbin bear thing. (And you thought I'd forgotten.) "

No, but you forgot to mention SPOT Watches, one of which you raved about in a review on this very site ("But it's clear that SPOT is here to stay, and an almost mind-blowing capabilities expansion for the sorts of everyday products we frankly don't think much about normally.").

Despite that omission, you're spot-on (no pun intended) this time. Thank you, Mr. Thurrott.

January 14, 2009 10:44 AM
 

shark47 said:

On my visit to India four years ago, I noticed a large number of PCs in use.  I asked about any problems using Macs and was told no. They had never used them so they weren't aware of any problems.

When wae posted an anecdote the other day, someone said that every anecdote deserved an equal and opposite one, so I guess I was just doing my part.

January 14, 2009 10:45 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"Some schools even require that you lease the computers from them for a huge amount of money."

That's usually due to centralized dipsh1t-managed IT departments, and it amounts to extortion. In that case, I'd find another school. It's not like there's a lack of competition.

"I asked about any problems using Mac and was told no."

Of course not, since a Mac will run Windows quite well, thankyouverymuch.

"My but Paul's in a cranky mood today..."

He's experiencing a rare moment of lucidity.

January 14, 2009 10:49 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

"So much for Apple's theory about there being no money to be made in that market."

Realistically, Microsoft being able to make money in that market doesn't mean Apple could.

The Apple business model requires that they make money on the hardware - a lot of money on the hardware.

On the other hand, it's hard to say why the Mac Book Air doesn't qualify as a netbook. They both have small hard drives, limited I/O ports, no removable media drives, limited RAM, limited graphics.

Maybe Apple is just saying "while we can make a netbook, there's no way we're going to charge netbook prices for one"

January 14, 2009 10:50 AM
 

DRWAM said:

Mike, I guess that I never thought of the MBA as a netbook because of price, but I agree with your point. I am used to thing under $500, and possibly, even smaller screens. Aren't a lot of Windows netbooks upgradeable?

January 14, 2009 10:59 AM
 

Ocean said:

>>Apple's theory about there being no money to be made in that market.<<

About netbooks?  Did they say that?  Didn't they say they didn't know how to make a $500 netbook that wasn't junk?

January 14, 2009 11:00 AM
 

Ocean said:

Ars lays the smackdown on Galos:

>>Netbooks are all about a particular kind of compromise: they greatly increase mobility, albeit at the cost of general usability. You can head out hiking, pop over to the DMV to renew your license, or hit the road and still stay connected with a platform that remains highly portable. In Apple's product line, the iPhone fills this niche far better than any of its laptops, including the MacBook Air. There's simply no way to stick an Air into your pocket or a small handbag. <<

arstechnica.com/.../the-iphone-and-ipod-touch-apples-netbook

January 14, 2009 11:14 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

DRWAM

It kind of reminds me of the 1980s Cadillac Cimarron where Cadillac rebadged a Chevy Cavallier, added different upholstery and charged Cadillac prices for it.

Was it a GM econobox? By price, absolutely not. By any other measure, of course.

On a hopeful note, the Cimarron disaster finally shook up Cadillac to start producing cars they could be proud of after a couple of decades of brand management rather than engineering.

January 14, 2009 11:16 AM
 

daveinla said:

Very good sense analysis. MS will never be a CE brand. People associate MS with the thing they have to deal with when they are at work...

January 14, 2009 11:17 AM
 

bettieblu said:

"Last fall I went back to my school on a recruiting trip and you would not believe how many people in the dorms are using their laptops to watch TV."

That is probably very true, but using media center?  I watched last weeks episode of "The Unit" last night using a Mac and going to CBS site.  It was a full screen HD stream.

If your going to record TV onto a PC media center is good.  There are other alternatives but media center is really good.  If your going to just watch TV show, meh a browser is all you need.  There is so much free stuff online now, and 99% works on any OS or browser.  Every major network posts their shows, most in HD online.  Add Hulu, Netflix and now Block buster and you have a ton of "legal" content online.

January 14, 2009 11:20 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Ocean

That Ars analysis suffers from "let's disqualify a product we want to protect from a comparison that would make it look bad by declaring a criterion that it doesn't meet as the only defining characteristic" logic.

It's as if Motor Trend in 1982 said, "the Cimmaron by Cadillac can't be compared with other econoboxes (despite it being a GM J-body econobox) because to be in this comparison the car must have vinyl upholstery"

January 14, 2009 11:28 AM
 

bettieblu said:

@ Mike I agree with "The Apple business model requires that they make money on the hardware - a lot of money on the hardware." and they have been doing that quite well over the last two years with record growth.

I also agree with "Maybe Apple is just saying "while we can make a netbook, there's no way we're going to charge netbook prices for one"

If Apple ever makes a netbook, I dont think they will, they will wait to see how that market flushes out, then try to put a twist on it and spin it like crazy with marketing.  

I would imagine a tablet/netbook option that is really nothing but a bigger iTouch/iPhone and using some new mobile mutli-core cpu that they own part of from the company they just bought, so it can use that grand central stuff.  I still dont think they will go that route.  I still dont think netbooks will make a serious dent in notebook market share.  They will sell a lot of them but nothing compared to real notebooks.

MS needs to make Windows 7 lighter for a couple of reasons.

1.  Vista has bad rep of being bloated, and it needing more RAM than XP and not being used for netbooks, only back up that belief.

2.  Snow Leopard is doing it and dont think for a second that Apple will not use that point.  I imagine them going after Vista with something like "Leopard was faster/better performing than Vista, the new lighter PPC code-less, intel only, Snow Leopard is even better" or some spin like that.  If they come out with SL before 7 they will really go after Vista since it will be the current version of Windows.  Windows 7 if lighter can counter that.

January 14, 2009 11:30 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

bettieblu

Apple has a long history of saying "we don't think there's any reason to be in market x" followed up by them entering market x.

Usually they don't get asked about that. When they do, they spin it as "the new Apple x has redefined what a "market x" is"

As for Snow Leopard, realistically, Apple will spin it as revolutionary to justify the upgrade pricing but the reality is that however Windows 7 compares to Snow Leopard won't really matter. It's not as though reviewers actually did benchmarking on Vista. (When they do, it's typically faster than Windows XP at the same tasks). They typically just echoed whatever gossip they heard.

January 14, 2009 11:39 AM
 

DRWAM said:

I don't agree that my iPhone has the same, let alone more functionality than a netbook, especially one the would have Windows 7. Even when we get Documents-to-Go for iPhone, I can't see typing a report on the iPhone, but it's easily done with a netbook. A netbook can also use a printer, practically any printer. While there may be some app for the iPhone, it probably work work as well. Also, a netbook would not require a phone contract starting at $60/month. That's why I was suggesting Magicjack and Skype.

January 14, 2009 11:39 AM
 

Lindy said:

@bettie a apple netbook or whatever would cost at least $1000 no doubt in my mind.

January 14, 2009 11:40 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"mikegalos", I tip my hat to your ability to completely change the subject of the conversation, while not being called out on it. You've managed to take a story by Paul about Microsoft's failure to compete in Consumer Electronics and turn the discussion into a rant about Apple's nonexistent Netbook pricing.

Remarkable.

January 14, 2009 11:49 AM
 

johnpapola said:

Good post, Paul.

January 14, 2009 11:50 AM
 

Waethorn said:

"That's usually due to centralized dipsh1t-managed IT departments, and it amounts to extortion."

No, it's due to the fact that the systems come preloaded with software from companies that don't have educational licensing for the software that's required for the workload (some software vendors only provide restricted versions for the educational market, and are not a good tool for students planning on actually using the full versions in the workplace), and would cost thousands more for the student.

Speaking of anecdotes, just because you think you know, doesn't make it so.

"Vista has bad rep of being bloated, and it needing more RAM than XP"

Every Windows version that I can remember always doubled the *realistic* minimum RAM requirements of its predecessor.  Looking back:

Vista:  1GB

XP:  512MB

2000:  256MB

Me:  128MB

98SE:  64MB

98:  32MB

95 "Gold" (RTM)/OSRx:  16MB

Anybody have a different experience with each OS?  These are the values that I distinctly remember having decent performance for a very moderate usage scenario in each case.

"Snow Leopard is doing it"

If pruning PowerPC code makes the Intel code somehow faster, then Apple's dev team sucks.

January 14, 2009 11:51 AM
 

Lindy said:

@drwam I dont think apple will actually make one.  There have been rumors of a tablet or something like that for a very long time.

If they did the iPhone uses a modified version of OS X.  They could easily make a device the size of netbook, even clam shell that would use OS X, and be compatible with apps for the app store, plus run normal OS X apps.  Apple would probably take different approach by focusing on the 4 or 5 apps you might use with a netbook vs a full OS like Windows on a netbook.  Both have their pro's and cons.  Also some netbooks come with 3G cards in them already so your data plan would still be the same price as the iPhone data plan.

Like Betti said Apple bought, this year I think, PA Semi a cpu design company founded by some X intel guys that created the ARM cpu's.  They probably will use whatever the create from that in future iPhones or whatever else.

January 14, 2009 11:52 AM
 

Windows 7 on older hardware: A catch 22 for Microsoft | All about Microsoft | ZDNet.com said:

Pingback from  Windows 7 on older hardware: A catch 22 for Microsoft | All about Microsoft | ZDNet.com

January 14, 2009 11:53 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Lotsa

You see, the reason I didn't get "called out" for being off topic is that I was on topic.

If you'd actually read the post or even the title you'd see that it's a story about netbooks and Windows 7 and I commented on what Paul actually wrote about Apple and netbooks in his article.

You should actually try reading the articles and posts before starting a meta-flame. You probably wouldn't look as desperate.

January 14, 2009 12:00 PM
 

Avro said:

I was at a conference back in October and I found a number of people were using their netbooks for the same thing I was using my 2G iPod Touch for, but we went on to a day long meeting in London and nobody wanted to lug their netbook along with them while those of us with an iPod Touch were fine.

If it doesn't fit in my pocket, I might as well bring a notebook.  The iPod Touch is Apple's version of the netbook and it is selling well. Apple might go for a netbook, but I don't think they need to.

January 14, 2009 12:08 PM
 

Waethorn said:

@mike:

Losta just likes to b*tch and chew about other users.

January 14, 2009 12:11 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Avro

You must have awfully big pockets if you can fit a netbook in them.

Perhaps I need to buy special pants or maybe a shirt with a kangaroo pouch.

The only criterion that keeps the Mac Book Air from being treated as Apple's amazingly expensive netbook is that the size (in 2 dimensions) is too big to fit in somebody's mythical pocket. Otherwise, by every other measure, it's a netbook. Limited ports? check. Limited HD? check. Light weight? check. Limited battery? check. No removable media? check. Limited RAM? check. Designed primarily for online work? check.

And, since an HP Mini or an eeePC or an OLPC doesn't fit in my pockets any more than a Mac Book Air, I'd say that the pocketability criterion is moot since they all miss the mark.

January 14, 2009 12:22 PM
 

DRWAM said:

New line of apparel, netbook pockets for slacks and coats.

January 14, 2009 12:23 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

DRWAM

Yeah, but then we'll get the inevitable comments of, "is that a netbook in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?"

January 14, 2009 12:29 PM
 

chuckb84 said:

"Very good sense analysis. MS will never be a CE brand. People associate MS with the thing they have to deal with when they are at work..."

Yep. You'll also notice that we don't hear the products called the "Microsoft Zune", etc, they always try to establish a new brand for the particular product, and that's failed, with the arguable exception of the Xbox. Microsoft knows that people don't see their brand as something associated with fun products.

January 14, 2009 12:31 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"And, since an HP Mini or an eeePC or an OLPC doesn't fit in my pockets any more than a Mac Book Air, I'd say that the pocketability criterion is moot since they all miss the mark."

www.engadget.com/.../vaio-p-doesnt-have-nothin-on-these-other-awesome-pocket-friend

Sony:  "It's not a netbook!!"

You are correct sir.

January 14, 2009 12:33 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Actually Chuck and Dave, you'll find that the VAST majority of people on the planet associate Microsoft with the computer they have at home that lets them mail pictures to their family or play games or pay bills or surf the web.

I know it comes as a shock to the Mac Faithful but the world really doesn't revolve around niche players no matter how self-importantly they position themselves.

Call us back to tell us what "people" think when you actually can speak for most people rather than a few percent.

January 14, 2009 12:38 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Wae

I'd say those pictures (on the link) make my point pretty well...

Cimmaron by Cadillac - a GM econobox at a Cadillac price

Mac Book Air by Apple - a netbook at an Apple price

January 14, 2009 12:41 PM
 

Avro said:

@ Waethorn

The 2G iPod Touch fits very well in my suit jacket pocket  :-) .

January 14, 2009 12:41 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

"You'll also notice that we don't hear the products called the "Microsoft Zune", etc, they always try to establish a new brand for the particular product"

You mean as opposed to:

the Apple music player (oh, wait, that's the iPod brand)

the Apple Book Air (oh, wait, that's the Mac Book brand)

the iApple (no, that's the iMac brand)

the Apple Phone (um, iPhone brand)

Now, what was your point again?

January 14, 2009 12:45 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"The 2G iPod Touch fits very well in my suit jacket pocket"

....AND, it's not a netbook.  It's not even a computer.

January 14, 2009 12:50 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Waethorn

"The 2G iPod Touch fits very well in my suit jacket pocket"

And aren't Apple people supposed to be the hip, creative professionals who don't wear suits? On the commercials I never see "Mac" wear a suit jacket and I never see "PC" without one.

January 14, 2009 12:55 PM
 

DRWAM said:

Avro, all I know is that if that iPhone nano does become real, and does not need a data contract [or at least pay/use/bite or something], I'm gonna be depressed. I just updated my wife's phone to a LG shine, becuase she wanted a small, simple phone, but probably would have wanted a smaller iPhone if they exist.

PS, jailbreak that bad boy!

January 14, 2009 12:56 PM
 

Ocean said:

>>Ocean

That Ars analysis suffers <<

Nice job of not saying anything about the argument they made.

January 14, 2009 1:05 PM
 

Avro said:

A suit is not the norm for me either.

I was at a Palace!  I usually wear a combat uniform. :-)  

Fits nicely in the pocket of that too!

January 14, 2009 1:07 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

DRWAM

It's unlikely that you'll be seeing pay-as-you-go data plans tied to any high-end phone. The subsidy for the phone is covered by the carrier subsidy and carriers have lately been moving more and more to an all-you-can-eat style with unlimited voice/data/text at a fixed (albeit usually high) price.

January 14, 2009 1:11 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"a apple netbook or whatever would cost at least $1000 no doubt in my mind."

@mike, avro, lindy:

Apple iPod Touch:  $259-$429 CDN

Apple iPhone 3G:  minimum $2627.20CDN  ($60/mth plan + $6.95 access fee/mth + $0.50 911 fee/mth)*36 mths + $199 for phone.

Apple iNetbook:  priceless

("price·less

adjective  

Definition:

1. impossible to put value on: worth more than can be calculated in terms of money

2. hilarious: extremely comic and amusing"  -- Encarta)

Apple iCredit:  the new currency with which to buy the iNetbook.

January 14, 2009 1:13 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Ocean

Their point was: "There's simply no way to stick an Air into your pocket " and I addressed that as moot both in my posting and in several followups.

As I said, in short:

Cimmaron by Cadillac - a GM econobox at a Cadillac price

Mac Book Air by Apple - a netbook at an Apple price

But, as I also said, the Cimmaron disaster shocked Cadillac out of brand management and back into engineering so perhaps the Mac Book Air will do the same for Apple.

January 14, 2009 1:15 PM
 

shark47 said:

mike, all of Apple's products have the same logo and use the same design principles. It's not the same with Microsoft, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It's not like Lexuses and Scions have the Toyota logo. Same with VW, Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley, Skoda, etc., which are all owned by VW.

January 14, 2009 1:20 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Shark

Actually, Microsoft's products use the same design principles and themes, note the logo color schemes, choices of fonts, etc.

Again, you don't buy an ApplePod or an Apple Book Pro or an ApplePhone.

You can, however, buy an Apple TV. How's that going?

Still, it makes sense that Apple plays down the Apple brand on their consumer electronics since most of them are sold for use with Windows PCs.

January 14, 2009 1:25 PM
 

Avro said:

@Mike

You need an update.

The Pay As You Go 3G iPhone is available in the UK for (8GB)  £342.50 ($500) and that includes all taxes and 12 months unlimited Wi-Fi access

or

(16GB)  £391.45 ($571) and that includes all taxes and 12 months unlimited Wi-Fi access

www.o2.co.uk/.../paygo

January 14, 2009 1:30 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Avro

Since DRWAM lives in New Jersey (and not in the Jersey Crown Colony) I answered for the US market where we have VERY different pricing models for cell phone service than just about anywhere else on the planet.

January 14, 2009 1:37 PM
 

Avro said:

@Mike

No problem, just an FYI.  No offence intended.

FWIW I prefer my Nokia as a phone and my 2G iPod Touch as a PDA.

January 14, 2009 1:41 PM
 

Ocean said:

>>And aren't Apple people supposed to be the hip, creative professionals who don't wear suits? <<

I've noticed that when Paul criticizes Microsoft, Mike does everything in his power to change the topic in-thread...

January 14, 2009 2:16 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"Same with VW, Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley, Skoda, etc., which are all owned by VW."

They are different subsidiaries.

Best Buy owns Future Shop, but they haven't rebranded all of the Future Shop stores because they cater to a different crowd (male 18-34 for Future Shop vs. non-gender/age-specific for Best Buy).

Apple just wants to brand everything the same.  If they actually wanted to gain market share for their business systems (Mac Pro, OS X Server), they'd spin off that into another division.  People associate Apple with consumer systems though, so nobody takes them seriously as a business platform (not even themselves).

January 14, 2009 2:20 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"that includes all taxes and 12 months unlimited Wi-Fi access"

I dunno why anyone in their right mind would pay for Wi-Fi access with as many free and insecure hotspots as there are.

January 14, 2009 2:22 PM
 

Waethorn said:

Hmm....

According to the Encarta definition, I would bet that an Apple iNetbook would be pricelessly priceless.

January 14, 2009 2:24 PM
 

DRWAM said:

Thanks Mike. You're starting to know me like a book. I would get some angst thinking that I made a mistake. So I owe you a beer...another one, that is. She definitely would not use the data plan, and would not want to waste the money on it.

Doc

January 14, 2009 3:04 PM
 

whiplash55 said:

Well actually, the HP 2133 running a Via processor at 1.2 ghz runs Vista okay. Not great but acceptably. If I get a netbook I have a spare Vista license and trimmed down version I made with vlite, I think it would be fine, I'm guessing it would be almost fast on the higher powered Atom chip.

January 14, 2009 3:19 PM
 

tayme said:

To compare an Apple iPhone or Apple iPod Touch to a netbook is very inaccurate. Somebody already mentioned the connectivity to a printer, add to that the lack of a near full size keyboard, the ability to connect an external drive (magnetic, optical, or other), etc. Those things cannot be done on the Apple iPod Touch or Apple iPhone.

*mikegalos, note the use of the Apple brand that is common. Even though it is widely known that Microsoft is the owner of the Zune trademark, it is not widely or commonly used in the name. Noticde the use of the Apple trademark in this ad - www.bestbuy.com/.../olspage.jsp or this one - www.bestbuy.com/.../olspage.jsp - I think that is the point that chuckb84 was making...and I think that most of us, including you know that.

--tayme

January 14, 2009 3:49 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

tayme

More importantly a netbook is a notebook optimized for portability and Internet based applications. An iPhone simply doesn't run the same software as a notebook. While it may be a nice portable platform it's no more a netbook than my Windows Mobile phone.

As for branding, Apple has more distinct branding than almost anyone I know. Computers do not use the Apple brand, they use Macintosh. Music players do not use the Apple brand they use iPod. Phones do not use the Apple brand, they use iPhone.

While they may put an Apple logo on the products, they don't use the brand itself. An analogy would be that in the early 1970s the British Leyland Motor Cars (BLMC) family of automobiles used their own brands (MG, Triumph, Jaguar, etc.) but all had a BLMC logo on the fender (wing to UK readers). They had a BLMC logo and were BLMC products but you bought a Triumph TR-6 or Jaguar XK-E. You didn't buy a BLMC XK-E anymore than you currently buy an Apple Nano or an Apple Book Air.

BTW: Speaking of Apple, it looks like Steve Jobs is taking medical leave until June. Here's wishing him a speedy recovery.

January 14, 2009 4:04 PM
 

DRWAM said:

Most netbooks probably do not have GPS. Yesterday, I was traveling to using my NUVI 760, which wanted to take me way the F out of the way, but I saw the directions at mapquest and knew it was a straight shot, then one turn, using the major roadway closest to my home. The NUVI kept on trying to get me to turn around at every street, and I mean EVERY street. The iPhone matched the Mapquest, easy. fast route, again, using the closest highway to my home. I was literally one block away from the destination, and the NUVI [with all upgraded maps] wanted me to drive 1.7 miles AWAY from the place, so that I would use it's route!!! NUVI is possessed. The iPhone showed me exactly where I was as well as the highlighted route, for the easiest and fastest travel. I even used Google map on my computer and changed the route to match the NUVI and showed that it added 15 minutes to a 25 minute drive! An Apple success story. Do netbooks have a GPS?

January 14, 2009 4:06 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

DRWAM

Sounds like the NUVI is somehow locked into one of the more obscure modes (like Avoid Highways or Shortest Distance)

January 14, 2009 4:21 PM
 

DRWAM said:

Thanks Mike. I'll check it out. Maybe I accidentally touched something on the touch screen when I picked it up. Dang, sure was annoying, EVERY intersection.

January 14, 2009 4:44 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"I've noticed that when Paul criticizes Microsoft, Mike does everything in his power to change the topic in-thread..."

...and when you point it out, he'll attack you personally.

So. Predictable.

Let's see what mikey does with this news:

www.macworld.com/.../jobs.html

January 14, 2009 4:47 PM
 

shark47 said:

Microsoft doesn't have one logo like, for example, Dell, HP, or Apple. Every product group uses a different logo. That's what gives people like chuck the impression that Microsoft is afraid to use its name in the CE realm.

Zune is also known as Microsoft Zune:

search.live.com/.../search

January 14, 2009 4:48 PM
 

shark47 said:

"I've noticed that when Paul criticizes Microsoft, Mike does everything in his power to change the topic in-thread..."

"...and when you point it out, he'll attack you personally."

That's nothing compared to what goes on here when Paul makes similar comments about Apple. A lot of people take criticism of Apple personally, unfortunately.

January 14, 2009 4:52 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

"Let's see what mikey does with this news:

www.macworld.com/.../jobs.html"

Actually, I posted "BTW: Speaking of Apple, it looks like Steve Jobs is taking medical leave until June. Here's wishing him a speedy recovery." on this thread 43 minutes before you stooped to turning Jobs' illness as a way to do an ad-hominem.

You're not exactly a class act, are you?

January 14, 2009 5:08 PM
 

DRWAM said:

Mike, it looks as if you are correct again. I did a simulation, but checked shortest distance and unchecked all the avoidances, including traffic or heavy traffic and it did show a straight shot, except for a strange  loopty-loop to get out of my neighborhood. For now on, I will do a simulation before get directions for my wife. The nice part of the iPhone is that you can check the entire route by moving the map on the touch screen, but the NUVI would not let me do the same. You're almost up to a whole six pack of beers that I owe you, or wine if you prefer.

Thanks,

Doc

January 14, 2009 5:11 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

DRWAM

My mother's car ties GPS setting to the driver profile. She keeps it on "avoid highways". If I'm over at her place and I drive her somewhere I have to remember to change to the other driver profile if I use her keys or I get routed some creatively "interesting" ways so the symptoms looked familiar.

On the bright side, though, I've found some shortcuts that way that really help in local traffic.

January 14, 2009 5:19 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"Do netbooks have a GPS?"

Er, I'd say the Sony one does, but "it's not a netbook".  Clevo also has some new barebones designs available.  I might have to look into them.  They have similar specs to most:  Atom + UC15W chipset with GMA 500 which runs (very slow) DirectX10 "for advanced 3D UI's", so it should run Windows 7's Aero OK.  They also have GPS modules, webcams, as well as a convertible 7" widescreen tablet form factor.

www.clevo.com.tw/.../prodinfo.asp

Here's the typical netbook non-touchscreen model:

www.clevo.com.tw/.../prodinfo.asp

January 14, 2009 5:32 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"You're not exactly a class act, are you?"

Probably not.  He's the one with the pointy hat on, sitting in the corner.

http://tinyurl.com/87hruf

January 14, 2009 5:35 PM
 

tayme said:

@mikegalos - "While they may put an Apple logo on the products, they don't use the brand itself."

That is just plain wrong. Every Apple product that I have owned or seen, includes the word Apple in plain English on the box that it is in. Not only that, but I just checked and the word Apple appears twice on the case of my MBP. When I click on "About this Mac", there it is again. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the primary website that the company utilizes for ALL of its products is http://www.apple.com/. Yes, they are obsessed with putting an i in front of most of their product names...but it is obvious that they do, indeed, use the Apple brand name.

--tayme

January 14, 2009 5:43 PM
 

DRWAM said:

I must say, along with some helpful info, you guys are good for some entertainment!

January 14, 2009 5:50 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

tayme

And I'm sure the text "Apple" is in the copyright statement as well, but the branding is:

iPod - music players

Macintosh (or variants of "Mac") - computers

iPhone - cell phones

Apple - television interface (don't ask me why - I'm guess no brand manager wanted it)

Those are brands.

You can't buy a ApplePod, you can buy a iPod. (Which is made by Apple)

You can't buy an Apple Book Pro, you can buy a Mac Book Pro.  (Which is made by Apple)

You can't buy an ApplePhone, you can buy an iPhone.  (Which is made by Apple)

You can't buy an Apple TV - oh, wait, you can. And, surprisingly, it's not a TV.

January 14, 2009 6:10 PM
 

shark47 said:

I just looked at the the iPod Touch packaging. (I haven't thrown it yet.) "Apple" is mentioned as many times as "Microsoft" is on the Zune packaging.

This means that either chuck and mike are both right or they're both wrong. I would say they're both wrong.

January 14, 2009 6:10 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Or to put it simply:

Company: Apple, Inc

 Brand: iPod

   Model: Nano

Company: Microsoft Corporation

 Brand: Zune

   Model: 16

So, what was that point about Microsoft branding that was supposedly so nefarious again?

January 14, 2009 6:14 PM
 

tayme said:

@sharky - I would agree that they are both wrong.

@mikegalos - I guess that we use the word brand differently where I live. To me, brand is almost always synonymous with the manufacturer. I would use it like this:

Brand: Apple

Product: iPod

Model: Nano

or

Brand: Ford

Product: Truck

Model: F150

I am guessing that you will be along to tell me how wrong I am...but whatever. I will agree to disagree.

--tayme

January 14, 2009 6:51 PM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

tayme

It seems to me that in consumer electronics, they do branding in a very simlar way.

So, given that, what was that point about Microsoft branding that was supposedly so nefarious again?

January 14, 2009 7:17 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@subzerohitman721: "Take the case of one robertsjoe. An individual so obsessed with his Apple computer that he blogs on sites dedicated to its rival Windows."

You don't see the irony in it all? You complain about me, an Apple fan on a Microsoft site. Yet the site that I am commenting on is a Microsoft one that is obsessed with Apple.

January 14, 2009 7:37 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@ocean: "This Windows 7 buzz is positively iPhone like."

Ahh the dreams of a child. No base in reality whatsoever. If by buzz you mean within the Microsoft fanboys, yes. In other words, it's nowhere near iPhone-like. The iPhone is a cool device, a truly excellent one that is loved the world over.

Windows? A giant hair ball! Hated by many people all around the world. Endured by many more; those that don't know any better; those that have no choice (stuck at a company with no imagination, lacking leadership -- hence left using Windows and Office and the other little bastards that go along with it). Or simply those that have no taste. The millions of followers point back all the way to the apex of the company; the lack of taste permeating all the way through and up to the sweaty armpits of The Leader. Windows?? zzzzz a giant bore, like the company that bore it.

January 14, 2009 7:52 PM
 

tayme said:

@mikegalos - I think that the point that chuckb84 was trying to make was that when Zune was released not too many people knew it was from Microsoft, in other words, as its own brand. I tend to agree with him. In fact, a lot of non-techie people are still not even aware that it is a Microsoft product; where nearly everyone has always been aware that iPod is an Apple product. Nothing illegal about that.

--tayme

January 14, 2009 8:19 PM
 

tayme said:

@robertsjoe - Spoken like a truly obsessed teenager! Thanks for continuing to entertain me.

--tayme

January 14, 2009 8:21 PM
 

shark47 said:

@tayme: "I think that the point that chuckb84 was trying to make was that when Zune was released not too many people knew it was from Microsoft"

I don't think he was pointing that out. He said Microsoft was intentionally doing this. This is what chuck said:

"Yep. You'll also notice that we don't hear the products called the "Microsoft Zune", etc, they always try to establish a new brand for the particular product, and that's failed, with the arguable exception of the Xbox. Microsoft knows that people don't see their brand as something associated with fun products."

I think chuck is wrong. First off, a lot of places refer to Zune as "Microsoft Zune". I used the Live Cashback site as an example earlier. When Microsoft's own site refers to Zune as "Microsoft Zune", chuckb'4s argument then has no merit?

January 14, 2009 9:13 PM
 

chuckb84 said:

Mike,

your rebuttals about the branding of the ipod, iphone, and---most hilariously--on the Macintosh computers are wrong. Those SCREAM Apple. The Apple logo is on every one of them, and they're all sold in the same stores, which are all identified out front with the very same logo (and no words or letters except that logo).

When I google "microsoft zune", this is the top hit:

http://www.zune.net:80/en-US/

the word "Microsoft" does appear, once, in tiny type at the unnoticeable bottom of the page, "©2009 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved". So, oh yah, they really want to link the word "Microsoft" to the word "Zune".

In contrast, look at the ipod web page:

http://www.apple.com/itunes/

See that little "Apple" logo at the top? The word Apple occurs 9 times on the page, and not as obscure copyright notice, but as an integral part.

I think you don't even believe your own arguments; it's just rhetorical nonsense that is clearly wrong.

January 14, 2009 10:09 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

Layoffs at Microsoft may be coming tomorrow: www.alleyinsider.com/.../microsoft-layoffs-coming-tomorrow-msft.

With rumours that Windows Mobile may be hard hit. That would be what you get for not innovating after six versions and then shown-up as being mediocre by the iPhone.

January 14, 2009 10:47 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

@chuck84: Yeah, I think Mike is losing his mind with all the dribble he's been dumping on this post (and yes, no need to mention the irony (I know what you're thinking)). People know it's all Apple. I have no idea what Mike's mumbling about. Conspiracy? Next thing you know he'll do the old standard of "oh yeah 'cause 28 versions of Windows is great for users.. blah blah blah"

January 14, 2009 10:50 PM
 

subzerohitman721 said:

Thank you, Mr. Thurrott for doing what you said you were trying to do. Being highly critical of Microsoft and their products. For those who harp on him for being obsessed with Apple, here is another example of Paul taking Microsoft to the woodshed. They do have problems and there is a history of money loss here. Nobody denies it.

The difference here is that while robertsjoe has this blind devotion to Apple, on this site most folks debate both the pros and cons. The fact that Apple makes software and hardware for Windows makes it a credible topic of discussion. The difference though is many of us can step back and critique without our emotions or prejudices getting in the way. There is no irony here. You are Apple fan. Most folks on here are technology enthusiasts. For many here, Apple, Linux, Windows, whatever. Its all good. We can see the good and the bad.

January 15, 2009 12:12 AM
 

RobertC said:

I cannot fathom how anyone can claim that the Sony Vaio P is "not a netbook". There is no doubt that the Vaio P is a netbook. The difference is that it is more expensive than its competitors because it has superior features including better build quality, better screen etc etc. As far as I'm aware, the netbook moniker is derived from the actual size of the computer, rather than its price. That said, it's a silly name anyway - an 8 inch screen is hardly ideal for web browsing anyway. The Vaio TT and its predecessors (TZ, TX, T) offer a better compromise: 11 inch screen with superior connectivity and battery life.

January 15, 2009 2:13 AM
 

vinski- said:

Unbelievable how fast these comments gets derailed, its totally useless to try to make a conversation of the topic.

I think Paul should just remove the possibility of comment, or hire some moderators to moderate here, and to do the necessary banning.

I hate u all guys, thanks for ruining the Supersite experience!

January 15, 2009 7:11 AM
 

Dipsh t Admin said:

RoberC, the name "netbook" really doesn't mean anything the way that it is being promoted.  The usage is all over the place, and let's not forget the little lawsuit by Psion (?) claiming netbook for their own.  The name has been bastardized for sure.

However, I feel that the term netbook refers to a small device that is also cheap, that in my opinion, leaves the Sony P out.  However, having seen that and the OQO 02+, if I were to buy such a device, I would want the more expensive and versatile version over the cheaper ASUS and the like competitors.

January 15, 2009 7:31 AM
 

tayme said:

Either way...IMHO my Zune plus the Zune Pass is much better than the iPod/iTunes combo. Hardware and software wise.

--tayme

January 15, 2009 7:41 AM
 

RobertC said:

I've read and heard a lot about the greatness of the Zune. It's just a shame that Microsoft won't sell it in markets outside of the USA.

I reckon they should bundle them with the Xbox, or somehow tie them together such that the Zune could leverage the Xbox brand awareness. That said, I own a PS3 which I think is the technically superior system.

January 15, 2009 7:58 AM
 

RobertC said:

Dipsh, the Vaio might be expensive, but it has the highest quality components in its segment.

January 15, 2009 8:00 AM
 

Entertainment 2.0 » Blog Archive » Media Center Isn’t Dead…It’s Just Resting to Kick Some Ass said:

Pingback from  Entertainment 2.0  &raquo; Blog Archive   &raquo; Media Center Isn&rsquo;t Dead&hellip;It&rsquo;s Just Resting to Kick Some Ass

January 15, 2009 3:39 PM
 

Jailbreaking of Phones is illegal. said:

Give me a break if the courts fall for apples shinanigans then we just get 1 more ruling that proves that the system is currupt my phone should be mine to use as i please.

February 13, 2009 2:53 PM
 

WindowsObserver.com » Link Sharing – El Salvador Version said:

Pingback from  WindowsObserver.com   &raquo; Link Sharing &ndash; El Salvador Version

February 18, 2009 9:17 PM
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