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Something needs to be done.  I liked Paul's previous idea of maybe giving a discount to Vista Ultimate buyers.  I really don't think that ticking off their enthusiast market would be in their best interests.  But maybe when you have one billion customers, you can be an @ss and get away with it.

"Windows Vista Ultimate Extras are quietly removed from your PC during the upgrade to Windows 7."

I have absolutely no problem with that because I think it means that Microsoft has removed that bit of useless code in Windows 7 that enabled Dreamscene and other Ultimate Extras. They are focusing on making Win7 leaner and I'm all for that.

In any case, I think most people who bought Vista Ultimate bought it because they wanted/needed BitLocker or Remote Desktop or just because they wanted to say that they had the Ultimate edition. Anyone who was stupid enough to pay top dollar for a product that vaguely promised them some nebulous features sometime in the future deserves to have those features rudely snatched away.

Ahhh a shame

I really like the Poker Game.

Apart from that i didnt get ultimate for the extras, i got it for SUA and etc

oh knows, what to do without my 25 extra language packs!

I find it hard to believe that people actually paid for the Ultimate Extras in the first place.

Then again, I guess some people need a resource hogging, video desktop and copy of Texas Hold 'Em.

To each their own I guess.

@meason:

The language packs are still part of 7 Ultimate.  They are not an "Ultimate Extra".  MUI (which is where the language packs originate from) is in Ultimate and Enterprise, but you can also get MUI through a volume license agreement, even if you don't get Software Assurance.  It works with Vista Business, but it's a separate download to enable the feature.  Businesses needing MUI need to use WAIK (WinSIM in the Windows Automated Installation Kit) to get the feature though.

I have had Ultimate since day 1, never used any of the "extras". I don't know what they are (except Dreamscape) and I do not care if they disappear.

But I believe Microsoft should offer something as a quid pro quo for this Vista rip-off.

@meason

I believe the language packs are a basic part of W7 Ultimate and not an extra.

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Microsoft wasted a lot of time with Ultimate Extras and they didn't really leverage the service to anywhere near its potential. They really are no great loss.

That having been said, I think Microsoft can better service its customers with regular updates to its Windows Live software suite. This suite has become the de facto "Ultimate Extras" except with far more focus and quality.

The Windows Vista Ultimate Extras were an absolute joke. When you write the final word on Windows Vista's history, this definitely belongs in the Where Microsoft failed with Vista page. DreamScene, Texas Hold'em, and the like did nothing to enhance Vista at all. I surely will not miss them and I applaude Microsoft for getting rid of them.

Everyone from our Mac fanatics to regular Windows users were complaining about how big Vista was. 15 GB of hard drive space. It got even bigger with Ultimate Extras. So if we're going to get Windows 7 into shape, why the heck do we need Vista's useless junk? If you want some change, you got to swallow that horse sized pill called sacrifise. Do you really need DreamScene? Is it that vital?

Kudos for trimming the fat. I like Windows 7 sans Extras. Maybe they can make it an optional download later, for those who really want it.

"I think most people who bought Vista Ultimate bought it because they wanted/needed BitLocker or Remote Desktop"

Maybe they were business users that wanted multimedia features....

Vista Ultimate was always positioned as a good choice for businesses that had no server, that may or may not have remote workers.  Bitlocker is a good option for those businesses.  Businesses with servers don't need it since you can easily redirect folders to the server and encrypt everything there.  For businesses with 5 or more users that share data & printers, want to use software faxing to reduce waste, consolidate their data, manage workstations automatically, and have their own corporate email, are better suited to using an integrated server suite like SBS.

"Everyone from our Mac fanatics to regular Windows users were complaining about how big Vista was. 15 GB of hard drive space."

That's 15GB during installation, 8GB post-install.

7 Ultimate will be only available on likely only a single-digit percentage of machines.  7 Professional will meet the needs of the majority of business users and power users.

Also FYI: Ed Bott wrote that Home Premium will now include image-based backups.  Just thought you'd be interested.

@Waethorn

Oh I know, I was being sarcastic.... as extras for the longest time seemed to be just language packs.

Only reason I got Ultimate was the needs for some of the business stuff on top of the media stuff for work/home use.

i actually liked dreamscene. that said, i do prefer the RSS-feed wallpaper feature in win7, especially in conjunction with Search Connectors to run a wallpaper search on my favorite WP site, then use the results as my desktop rotation. Sad that MS removed the interface for setting RSS feeds as wallpapers, but I'm glad they at least didn't remove the functionality from the themepack files.

<understatement> Ultimate Extras was not Microsoft's finest hour. </understatement>

@ Wae,

After I cleanly installed Vista, it took up way more than 8GB. More like 15 GB. There's no way it could be 8 GB post install, because on the Home Basic, Premium, and Ultimate installs, it definitely ate more hard disk real estate. This total was before I added anything to Windows Vista. Just a raw bootup on 4 different machines. So I would have disagree with you based up on several installs and several machines. IMO.

I bought ultimate because I wanted MCE and RDP - and I got it really cheep at school.

I'll graduate before Win7 releases so I'll probably go with a cheaper version and use a VNC solution.

I'll bet a lot of people didn't pay full price for ultimate.

I installed a fresh copy of Vista Business (32-bit) + latest updates yesterday.  No other programs installed.  

Total install size is at 14.1GB, with 10GB of that just in the Windows folder.  5.6GB is in the WinSXS folder (under Windows).

No commentary here, just the facts.

@scottbakertemp

Same here.  I purchased Vista Ultimate because I needed Windows Media Center for a Digital Cable Tuner PC, plus I wanted to have Remote Desktop server so I could remotely administer the PC.

The other features that drove me towards Ultimate were:

- the inclusion of Offline Files & Folders so that I could host my home directory on a server while automatically keeping it in sync in case the server was offline.  (I have since changed this file sharing technique to use Live Mesh.)

- "Previous Versions" for quick access to previous versions of edited documents stored on the local file system.

Yeah I recently installed a fresh copy of Vista Business and then also installed the Win7 Beta on different partitions of the same drive and the Win7 (ultimate) install took up far less disk space after the install (it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 14 GB for Vista Business, 9GB for 7).

"Only reason I got Ultimate was the needs for some of the business stuff on top of the media stuff for work/home use."

That was the whole point in a nutshell.

Ultimate Extras were just a bonus because you bought the highest SKU.

"After I cleanly installed Vista, it took up way more than 8GB. More like 15 GB. There's no way it could be 8 GB post install, because on the Home Basic, Premium, and Ultimate installs, it definitely ate more hard disk real estate. This total was before I added anything to Windows Vista. Just a raw bootup on 4 different machines. So I would have disagree with you based up on several installs and several machines. IMO."

I do installs every day on many new systems as I build systems for a living, so you can't win this debate.  I've even been able to image a hard drive of Home Basic post-install to test out on an 8GB SSD (comprised of a CF-to-IDE adapter) so I know what I'm talking about.

If you're installing SP1 on it, the original Vista RTM files are left on the drive.  You have to use VSP1CLN.EXE to clear them off.

Although I am prepared for the "Ultimate" insult: MS making Windows 7 Ultimate the only upgrade available to Vista Ultimate users, I do hope that they will make this upgrade free as the last "Ultimate Extra"

Don't forget about Microsoft Tinker... which I think is by far the best of the ultimate extras. I think it's ridiculous that I would lose access to it for "upgrading" to Windows 7.

Yeah, I have like 5 Vista Ultimate boxes. I got them for domain joining and MCE, both which are integral to my network.

I think it's lame. I am thinking more and more that MS should offer W7Ult at $0 to vista ult users. ESPECIALLY  those who paid retail (or at least won some retail boxes in a raffle).

I'm really sorry, but I can't help but laugh.

Extras sucked @$$ and were a joke for the most part.

That said taking them away is bull sh!te big time.  The poker game was not bad.

@Weathorn "Businesses with servers don't need it since you can easily redirect folders to the server and encrypt everything there."  Amateurs R US...stay away from the corporate world and stick to over charging people for your home brew Windows desktops.

In the real world, especially the financial world, your notebook users better be using some sort of whole hard drive encryption, preferably something like this...

http://www.winmagic.com/

Yeah know those stories you read about someone loosing a notebook with vital information on it, all kinds of laws, at least in the US about that kind of stuff.

"In the real world, especially the financial world, your notebook users better be using some sort of whole hard drive encryption, preferably something like this..."

Sorry, but you suck at IT.

In the REAL WORLD, mobile corporate users would be accessing important data over an SSL VPN or private dial-in service, sorry to say.  You can overcharge all you want to your clients, but the reality is there's no need for workstation hard drive encryption when everything is on the server.

"Yeah know those stories you read about someone loosing a notebook with vital information on it, all kinds of laws"

That's why real corporate IT people know how to write remote access policies for business-critical or confidential data, and mobile workers don't have local copies of it at all.

scottbakertemp said:

"I'll bet a lot of people didn't pay full price for ultimate."

Bingo is your namo!  Microsoft full retail package prices are always high and probably always will be because there many others ways to get the stuff for almost

nothing leaglly if you simply look around.

I don't think that Microsoft makes much money on these boxes and just sets the price high to get a little gravy out of it.  

"That's why real corporate IT people"

They don't exist, at least not in the numbers that you hope they do.  Full hardware encryption integrated with the TPM chip and fingerprint reader is still very important.  Locking down every aspect of a remote users computer to prevent data theft is not practical or possible.

@Waethor - "Sorry, but you suck at IT."

Sorry, Wae...but you are completely wrong in this case. In a corporation of any size that is regulated, i.e. - healthcare, finance, insurance - Lindy is exactly right. Trust me...I work with regulators and regulations on a regular basis and your scenario would not pass muster. Encryption is a requirement, at least in the US...and I would hope that if a company was worth a crap, that they would use a combination of HDD encryption and strict policies regarding the type of data that is stored on the local drive.

Oh, and did you really say that users would be connecting via a private dial-in service? Really? They still use modems in the corporate world in Canada? Really? You've got to be kidding...

-tayme

We have Ultimate due to language requirement (Japanese & English).  I think it sucks that Ultimate seems to be the only version to support multi-languages!!!  

I hate to say it but this is a "Microsoft tax" for people who require this function...  My MAC friends are always going on about how easy it is to switch and how it’s all built in...

OK, so if what Paul Thurrott is reporting about Ultimate Extras in Windows 7 is true people should be up...

It's pretty clear to me that Vista Ultimate didn't come out as promised.  The exclusive features have come at a sputtering pace, and some of them were of questionable value (the only system I've seen DreamScene run decently on was a Q9550 with a high-end Radeon card).

It's sounding like "Professional" is the new Ultimate with Win7, and that's fine with me.

"Locking down every aspect of a remote users computer to prevent data theft is not practical or possible."

LOL!  Then you fall under the same category as Lindy.

"they would use a combination of HDD encryption and strict policies regarding the type of data that is stored on the local drive."

I work with a few sub-government contracts and remote workers get assigned systems that are fully locked down.  I dunno about you, but our government system doesn't allow Joe the Contract Plumber to go to Best Buy and purchase a home PC to use on their network.  Every system has to pass through several IT checks for compliancy.  I know - I've sold a few to local contract workers.  TPM chips and fingerprint readers are not part of the requirements.  Neither are smartcard readers for that matter.  Webcams are off the list though.  Only office workers with desktops are allowed to have them.  Domain (and local) policies are set in place so the user can do their work - NOTHING (ABSOLUTELY NOTHING) ELSE!  Any confidential data is stored remotely on server systems.  ABSOLUTELY NO remote system has regulated data on it unless it is mandated by the state, or regulated corporation.  Government workers remote in with SSL VPN with three levels of encryption that would make your head spin.  And yes, there are some that work "in the field" (literally!  As in "fields" plural, such as those that work for the Ministry of Natural Resources) in remote areas such as national parks workers or surveyors, where there is no cellular access.  If they're a contract worker and they have no access to the intranet, they don't get access to data.  For them, they either have to use dial-in access from their hotel room where there is no high-speed DSL service (forget about cable), or else secure satellite communications, of which it's very uncommon, since the government doesn't pay for it lightly, because it costs anywhere from $500-$1000 per month per linkup.  Cellular remote access is still considered "untrusted" by most departments.  Only trusted, RADIUS-bound WiFi hotspots are accessible too, and all of them require specific digital certificates installed on client systems.  That's just a way of life.  It's very secure actually.

Regulated data is kept OFF computers, and the systems are locked down so tight that you can't copy text, or do a screen grab of anything, and nothing is cached locally on the drive, which of course, means passwords aren't either.  If someone actually stole a laptop, it doesn't matter if they can read the drive or not, because ABSOLUTELY NO DATA is stored on it.  All they'll possibly get is a Windows license, and possibly an Office license.  Most work is done with online forms though, so Office isn't often required for data entry or retrieval.  The user doesn't have local admin privileges whatsoever, and they have such tight locks on it that the user can't save information to the system, download programs, or even browse the web in most cases.  Everything is done remotely over WAN.  Very few MNR remote workers even get internet access.  The majority of users that actually have remote systems (laptops or otherwise) are locked into the gov't intranet behind their 3 firewalls.  Any dial-in workers connect directly to government systems, not through a dial-up ISP.

Our healthcare system is similar, but privatization has made that lax.  It is still regulated though, so there are still certain IT restrictions that are maintained.  Web access is limited.

"I think it sucks that Ultimate seems to be the only version to support multi-languages!!"

It isn't.  Vista Enterprise does too.

If you buy it a regional version, it will come in the native language.  ie. you'll get a Japanese version in Japan.

MUI is just for users that buy outside of the region of their native tongue, or need to support more than one language on a single OS.

So when Win7 is launched, I want the biggest discount you, Microsoft, will ever give to your consumer as a form of apology to people like me, the Windows Vista Ultimate users.

I feel like I've been conned.

@waethorn - That is all fine and dandy...and I am sure that the US Government and most of the others around the world use similar security measures...it is necessary in that case,,,but we were talking about corporate IT...not government IT. There is a difference...The governments are spending your money and mine and not very wisely in most cases(not necessarily talking about IT there)...the corporations are spending the shareholder's money and must spend wisely, while meeting the regulations of their industry. What you do..from what I understand...is entirely different than what most of us in the corporate IT world do. You sell PC's to the specifications of your customers. Us in the corporate world have to do things within a specific set of rules. Many of us help make those rules...but we have to follow a standard protocol. I don't claim to understand all of the intricacies of your business...you should quit claiming to know those of ours.

--tayme

@subzero

I can't believe people still have the temerity to complain about Vista's hard disk usage. For crying out loud, storage is so cheap these days that you can get a terabyte for about $100.

"You sell PC's to the specifications of your customers."

Not exactly.  I sell IT-based solutions to a problem.  My job is to figure out what materials the customer needs to solve that problem.  Very few customers know exactly what they want when they come to me for IT advice.  That's the point.  If they have an IT team already, the IT team usually has at least some idea already, or wants a second opinion on the latest hardware and software trends and technologies.

"but we were talking about corporate IT...not government IT"

In most cases I've come across, there is usually some kind of government mandate on the classification of information.  Lawyers, healthcare, corporate information, I treat sensitive data as if it should be locked in a vault with only certain privileged people having the key.  That vault shouldn't be portable either, because someone will be able to break into it at some point.  I'm sure you've seen many an ATM theft video on YouTube before....

Not allowing them access to the vault in the first place makes more sense.  (I also make sure there are no "key blueprints" left around either, ie. cached passwords).  

@Waethorn - But, you still stick to your statement that those of us that work in corporate IT "suck at IT" because we have to support a broad range of real users and applications on a day to day basis. You sell the solution, possibly assit in the deployment, and move on. Yeah, maybe you come back for warranty support or to sell more "stuff". I work with many of the pre-sale and post-sale "engineers" all the time. Most of them have no idea what it is like in the real world. I'll fall back on an old joke to explain this...

Q- What's the difference between a Used Car Salesman and an IT Salesman?

A- The Used Car Salesman knows when he is lying.

--tayme

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