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Thats nice...thats very nice !! :) and the question is whether this xp mode can be used as an alternative for standalone xp installations as far as testing is concerned !! ?

Ok, so I looked on the Microsoft Connect site for Virtual PC and most other stuff and this new version isn't available as a download.  Are these pics fake, or Microsoft-made, or does Raf have private access to this already?

Oops...misread that.  So you have access to this already?  Why is it not on Connect yet?

You still don't need to manually adjust, you can choose Tile windows horizontally although there's no Aero snap.

Paul Thurrott shows one of the fun applications of the newly announced Windows 7 "xp mode" - IE 6 and...

I'm glad that IE6 is default browser in XP Mode, as a lot of older corporate apps depend on it (whether we like that or not :/ )

Waethorn

To quote the official notice yesterday on The Windows Blog (windowsteamblog.com/.../coming-soon-windows-xp-mode-and-windows-virtual-pc.aspx):

"We will be soon releasing the beta of Windows XP Mode and Windows Virtual PC for Windows 7 Professional and Windows 7 Ultimate."

More than good stuff. This means that my group can update to Win7 without fear of IE 8 compatibility problems with GE PACS Centricity browser controls. Badda bing baby!

DRWAM

Yep. When Paul and Raf broke this yesterday, your Centricity compatibility problems came to mind right off the bat.

This is just absolutely too SWEET!  This is just one of the rumored aces that Microsoft was saving for fighting off SnowLeopard. Now that backward's compatibility is no longer an issue, they've taken one of Apple's biggest arguments against Windows 7 off the table preemptively! No more incompatibilities and all within a secured virtual environment. Very strategic movie, Microsoft.

Now XP stuff will "just work". Then you've got the security, clean presentation, compatibility, and works well with older hardware.

I wonder how Apple will respond to this? Their biggest selling point for switching has been eliminated.

Ken, Virtual PC is free for any Windows user. So most likely Home Premium users will have to download it. Besides, if you really need XP Mode and Virtual PC, you might as well get Professional edition anyways.

Apple may have had a good quarter, this could be a potential game changer. Can't wait to download the official RC!

So DRWAM is your group ready to support double the OS's per machine?  Are they ready to take support calls when the VM crashes?  Patch 2 OS's per machine, AV for 2 OS's per machine.  Is there enough ram to run both on the same box?

I dont think people really understand what this is, unless they are familiar with VM technology.

Its not new stuff, Vmware and parallels have had this for some time now.

Yup Mike, as you know, XP has a compatibility wizard to do something with similar results. This allowed us to upgrade ancient teleradiology software [CEMAX Icon] that worked only with 98 at the time.  Now, MS is preparing us all in business to have nothing to hold us back from upgrading to Win 7. We have many PC's for our 300 employees, and now we can replace them in  a heart beat. I'm pretty happy right now, even though the deer ate many tulips.

@Lindy,

Any IT professionals supporting DRWAM's computer group would have to have the certifications, education, and the experience to support both OSes, AV's, and would have the knowlege in virtual environments already. Any good IT department would have people for that and would be included in the support call.

Your argument is completely moot because most IT professionals keep adding certifications and credentials to tackle evolving business environments. Because most IT professionals I know can walk and chew gum at the same time. They aren't the idiots you believe them to be.

Its not new, but its now a part of the Windows ecosystem to combat VMware, Parallels, and SnowLeopard. It might not beat them all, but its just enough to let people know that Microsoft is working on its biggest weakness.

Its called adaptation. Adapting to any threats and changes in environment. This is Microsoft's way of handling those threats. If Microsoft makes Windows Virtualization technology for free with the purchase of the OS, it might shift the balance of power away from VMware, Parallels and others. Its a typical Microsoft strategy. Undercut the competition's price by any means necessary.

Once again, the Borg have adapted, so to speak.

To add, our guys set up PACS, billing, transcription, fax and a bunch of other stuff that I can't remember. They left us and started their own company, which we now use. They are very savy. In fact, the head guy as a MBP running Leopard and Vista. He prefers VMware over Parallels, and I'm not sure if they tried VirtualBox or others with Leopard, but unlike the hospital, they get things done immediately. They are moving to company iPhones this summer, however, I sent them the instructions to set up Exchange!.

"Your argument is completely moot because most IT professionals keep adding certifications and credentials to tackle evolving business environments."

You are clueless.  

So lets say for example you pay for Symantec Antivirus Corporate Edition....1000 seats, who knows 10k a year?  You are running XP and all your applications work, but you want to move your company to 7, but you have a few app (DRWAM insert apps here) and now you install 7 Pro and enable this new (not really) XP mode on all 1000 client computers.  Now you need to up your SAV seats to 2000 or run that XP VM with out it.  Now lets say you use SMS/SCCM with a 1000 seats, to deploy apps to both your 7 host PC and XP VM you will now need 2000 seats.  There could be 3-4 more endpoint type of management software that the XP VM needs and none of them are probably free.  Or you could just say screw it and roll the dice and see how that goes.  Also like I said you will need more RAM.  So maybe you have 512-1gig for XP now and you planned on 2gig for 7, are you now going to plan on 3gig x 1000 for this new feature?

So which on of those "IT Professionals" are you going to let go to pay for this?  

@Sub your just a geek digging this re-packaged VM technology that is playing catchup with the rest of the industry.  Its not about combating VMware or Parallels or OS X, its about having to use this and support it and the COST of it.  Thats why people like dont get to make decisions.

Also, 9 of the 26 of us use Windows on our Macs for call [ we need IE for GE Centricity]. At least 15 of us own one or more Macs, but some guys still use their Win PC for call, and a couple have Macs for the wife and kids. I'll be interested to see what happens after Win 7 is released. Every 2 years, we can buy a new computer as a tax write-off, so much do so.

DRWAM your situation is unique.  Its sounds like you can choose to use what you want and your IT people adapt to that.  That is not the norm especially  once you get more than a 100 computers to support.

This feature has its place for sure, but I think its only a small place.  The technology is not new its the price and the way MS is using it to bridge a gap that is new.  

Most places will just wait until they can migrate to 7 with out using this.  Or migrate all the computers they can and use XP on the others until the applications that cant work with 7 are updated to run on 7, instead of using this because of the cost of   using this approach.

Yep Lindy, our 3 hospital system is what you are exactly describing. They actually took 2 years to roll out the GE Centricity update to make the ActiveX control compatible with Vista. They only did it when GE required the update, and then needed GE and MS to help update all the computers as they could not. They claim to have over a thousand computers.

Is there a reason not to use a lighter version of XP, like the one in the OLPC notebooks?

Also, this might be a stupid question, but do you need an AV for the XP install in addition to the one for Windows 7?

Seems to me MS is getting pretty frustrated to force XP users to upgrade their OS and machine. And this would be like DOS mode made available to Windows 95-Me, although technically they are all DOS-based OSes.

Awesome image. Side note, methinks it would have been a tad more awesome if the site had been one that shows up worse in IE6 than IE8, like the Acid2 test or something. ;)

Er, quick question:

Would using the NAT feature for networking in Virtual PC offer any better protection from network attacks than using a direct connection to a physical network adapter?

Does the NAT feature do any packet filtering?

darkmax

The Windows 1.x-3.x family was, as you call it, "DOS-based".

The Windows 9x family was not.

And, of course, neither are all the other, Windows NT based versions.

(Just tired of people spreading old, inaccurate information as thought it's something "everybody knows")

And, on your main point... Darn, it's so unfair of Microsoft improving their products to meet their users' needs.

Lindy

"DRWAM your situation is unique.  Its sounds like you can choose to use what you want and your IT people adapt to that."

While you're right that it may not be the norm in VERY large organizations, it's very far from "unique" to see businesses where individuals control what's on their computers and the support people are there to actually support them and not as a central resource that dictates all phases of all computer use.

"The technology is not new its the price and the way MS is using it to bridge a gap that is new."

I agree Lindy, Microsoft isn't wasting time reinventing the wheel, they are improving it.

This will be welcomed by many.

@Lindy:

FCS is cheaper than Symantec and it's easier to manage, what with the AD integration.

Morro is also based on the FCS agent, so for many businesses, that will be the solution to use.

Also, XP only needs 512MB unless the application requires it.  2GB for the entire system would be a good minimum for 7.  Considering how cheap RAM is, that's hardly even worth arguing over (most systems built in the last few years should already have 2GB and older systems would likely be replaced by systems that have at least 2GB before anyone would consider upgrading to 7 on them).

Also, how many businesses do you know of that actually have individual applications for all of 1000 computers?  Any company with that number of computers would have a lot of overlap, so centralizing VM's would make more sense, and claiming otherwise doesn't do anything to help your argument to make this option look bad.  I'd like to see tayme argue with you about trying to decentralize 1000 independent VM's.

"Its not about combating VMware or Parallels or OS X, its about having to use this and support it and the COST of it."

Let's see:  

Virtual PC:  free.

VMware workstation:  $169 minimum (based on 10-pack pricing)

XP license in Windows 7:  free.

XP license for VMware Workstation:  ~$189 via VLK

"Hmm....I'm not sure yet"

MED-V easy desktop VM management:  included with SA in MDOP 2009

So you just lost the COST part of that argument.

"do you need an AV for the XP install in addition to the one for Windows 7?"

That depends on how they do the networking (see my question about the NAT options).  If you disable networking altogether in the VM, then you wouldn't need virus scanning in the guest OS (likewise, you wouldn't need updates either - just like a physical machine that isn't connected to the internet).  Files can still be shared between a guest and host via Virtual PC's Shared Folders option, but you don't need network support for that.

Morro will be available for Windows XP too though, so I could see a lot of people just use that.

"Is there a reason not to use a lighter version of XP, like the one in the OLPC notebooks?"

What are the limitations of Windows XP on OLPC?  I thought is was just the same "Windows XP Home Edition ULCPC" version as sold on netbooks.  I know that the OEM's are limited to certain hardware as part of the license, but didn't know that the software had those limits built in.

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You would be crazy not to patch and run AV on those VM's.  In this blog example Paul shows IE6 and NAT from real firewalls do nothing to negate malware when using IE6, so Wae your wrong.

The only way to protect it would be to use local only networking on VPC or essentially no networking.  Now that would not work if the app your running in the XP VM needed networking, which is probably the case.

"FCS is cheaper than Symantec and it's easier to manage"  Ok but its still double the cost for every 7 box you run this on.

1 + 1 = 2

2 > 1.  You getting that Wae?

Like I said what if you use SCCM to push software and inventory those VM's or some other software the requires a end point license, and now each PC needs 2 CAL's.....1 + 1 = 2 or 2 >1.

Weather your running a XP on box, in VM in 7 or in a VDI on ESX, you still need to protect and manage it if its on your network.  That is a fact.  So my point is, you double your management for every 7 machine you enable this on.

Depending upon the size of the company to Mike's point, lets say 100 or more PC's I would probably opt for Windows 2008 TS  or Citrix server and publish the application that way rather than enable this feature on 100+ PC's and support now 200+ desktop OS 's provide the cost of the TS/Citrix server and cals was not more than than all of the extra software running on the XP VM's.

If we can get by a little longer before spending 2 MIL on new transcription software, the younger guys that are buying in to our practice will be happier since the push the expense into the future, rather than now, when they are paying us older guys. Otherwise, they get to pay us older guys and pay for their piece of 2 MIL too. Our computers don't get replaced all at the same time, so IT has plenty of time to do it when needed. I'm talkin' only the business desktops, not the imaging workstations [HP with Xeons]. The workstation must be FDA approved hardware [at least they used to be, and the FDA hasn't gotten any more lax].

What lame person would run IE6?

Actually GE PACS requires IE 6 to view images remotely. IE 7 32 bit does work however, but is not recommended.

@Lindy:

Nice way to backpedal.  You were originally saying that VMware Workstation is worth the money.  I could see many companies that would fire your a$$ now if you recommend it over this option.

Backpedal?

Here is my comments on VMware....

community.winsupersite.com/.../secret-no-more-revealing-virtual-windows-xp-for-windows-7.aspx

"They dont even compete really.  This is purely for application compatibility.  If you want more you will run a more full featured VM solution.  VMware Workstation blows Virtual PC away, cloning, snap shots, USB, Linux support, ACE images, migration to VMware server or ESX etc.  However its not free and totally over kill for what they are trying to achieve here."

So ummm NOOOO I did not say WMware was worth it for this situation at all.  Its expensive and over kill for what MS is trying to do with this free XP VM.  

Its great for developers or for testing applications and updates on different OS's, because unlike Virtual PC I can easily clone a VM (right click) or take mutiple snap shots and then roll back all of them or just the ones I want to.  I can also create a ACE image of my VM and give it to someone to run with the free ACE player, or I can move a VM from VMware workstation to ESX server, as in build a server template on my notebook get it all tweaked out and then move it to a production ESX server.  Can you move a Virtual PC VM to Hyper V?  Honestly I dont know.  You could move it to a MS Virtual Server.

Wae here is a good site for you  www.rif.org  it will open up a whole new world for you.

rj, I guess you got your answer with all of the "lame" doctors!  LOL.

slimshadey,

Waethorn actually accued Lindy of backpedaling. Are you saying you're just a sock puppet for Lindy?

I think its obvious that Lindy is here to discredit MS. Surely they are wrong because he/she uses Macs.

I guess Linds getting bored since she posts here so much.. Either that or he/she is just rj or a kid.. Both of which I'd believe.

Good luck Lindy.. you know with battling people at a Microsoft website.. lol

"rj, I guess you got your answer with all of the "lame" doctors!  LOL."

Mac users never get viruses. What do they care about doctors?

"Are you saying you're just a sock puppet for Lindy"

More like an alter-ego. Slimshadey = lindy = slimshadey. I wonder how many others have created multiple identities here.

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