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Well there's a change for the book...

As a related FYI: MJ Foley has what she claims is the maximum specs for a computer allowed to run the netbook-only limited release of Windows 7 at blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft

In short:

Screen no larger than 10.2"

Storage no larger than 250GB HDD or 64GB SSD

Processoring no more than a single single-core processor no faster than 2GHz and with maximum thermal design power of no more than 15W

There's more at her site including the appropriate disclaimers on the info and a much more detailed list.

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1 version to rule them all!!

"no more than a single single-core processor" WTF?  I thought the latest netbooks came with a dual core atom???

This will be perfect for my Wind!  Although it's running W7 Ultimate (7000) fine at the moment anyway.  But nice and light-weight will be just perfect.

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"I thought the latest netbooks came with a dual core atom???"

There is only one Atom dual-core presently - the Atom 330 - and it is designed for nettops only.  There are no netbooks presently shipping with it AFAIK, since it has a much higher TDP than the regular N or Z series.  Most current netbooks ship with the N270 or the slightly faster N280 and a 945GC chipset.  Smaller MID's without keyboards (touch only) are what the Z series are designed for, although some companies have adopted it for custom netbook designs because of its lower TDP.

The 330 and 230 are identical except for the fact that the 330 has 2 cores instead of the 230's 1.  With HyperThreading, the 330 can process 4 simultaneous threads, so Windows "sees" it as a 4-core processor even though it isn't.  The 230 and 330 are currently the only Atom processors that support 64-bit too.

All currently shipping Atom's have Intel HyperThreading.

"Processoring no more than a single single-core processor no faster than 2GHz and with maximum thermal design power of no more than 15W"

How does Windows differentiate between multi-threading (via HyperThreading) vs. multi-core?  Similarly, how does it differentiate between multi-core and multi-CPU?  Can it?  Or is this just a soft licensing restriction?

The IdeaPad S10 I have has a single core Atom processor. I believe that is the norm.

Well, I don't know who came up with that very stupid decision to limit apps in Windows Starter edition, but I'm glad someone came to their senses. This kind of fundamentally flawed thinking only helps to fuel anti-Microsoft sentiment among hardcore Mac fans and hardcore Linux fans. With the right processors and memory, there's no need for an arbitrary limit in netbooks.

As for the other limitations on Starter, those are also pretty lame brained. If anything Microsoft should be focusing on lowering the amount of processes running, improving memory allocation and minimizing the amount of memory used, and maximizing the CPU's abilities to do more with less

Restricting hardware upgrading options is also pretty boneheaded. I can already see Apple making another Mac vs PC commercial ont his, and Microsoft would only have itself for it to blame. Remove these ridonkulous restrictions and take advantage of newer upgrades to maximize the upward potential of the OS.

Once again, this is another example of me being highly critical of Microsoft. They do make some rather brain dead decisions at times. Microsoft needs to much better job of designing its OS with the future advances in mind. This foward thinking should extend to the PC Manufactuers that need to have much larger maximum memory expandability as part of that future foward thinking.

I'd like it if someone could find a netbook or MID (not a nettop) that ships with the Atom 330.

It's not that I'm being sarcastic with this challenge - I'd actually be interested if some company out there was shipping a netbook with one.

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This is good news, but I'd still be extremely reluctant to buy this for my netbook, because I'd want Aero :-)

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If MS can look at the hardware and set the funtionality of Win 7 to work or not, then why can't they protect us against security issues from viruses and malware?

"With the right processors and memory, there's no need for an arbitrary limit in netbooks."

With the right processor (anything Atom with a GMA 950), and memory (1-2GB), the arbitrary limit wouldn't be limited by using Windows 7 Home Premium.

"Microsoft needs to much better job of designing its OS with the future advances in mind."

I think they're trying to cover all bases with very low-end netbooks here.  I wouldn't want a netbook with Windows 7 Starter, when all current [N-series Atom] netbooks can run Home Premium just fine with Aero turned on.

Has anybody used Moblin 2.0 yet?  It also limits the number of processes at a given time even though it's designed for more current netbooks.  I'd like to see more of these "limited" OS's running on smaller MID devices.  Instead, a lot of MID makers are using Linux versions that, well, still look like Linux.  I'd want to see a pocketable device that ships with Windows 7 Starter or maybe Moblin 2.0.  I like what Gigabyte has come up with - a device that looks like an OQO, but MUCH cheaper even if it is less powerful:

www.giga-byte.com/.../Products_Spec.aspx

Moblin doesn't display properly on anything less than 1024x600 resolution.  I'm guessing you could probably customize it to work though.  Windows 7 wouldn't be a good fit though, since the processor is only 800MHz, and the SSD is only 4GB.

"If MS can look at the hardware and set the funtionality of Win 7 to work or not, then why can't they protect us against security issues from viruses and malware?"

That's like saying: "If Apple can make OS X work on common Intel hardware, why don't they just release it for all PC's?".

I can see the commercial already. PC is sitting at a desk with piles of computers and boxes of all the different versions of Windows. Mac asks him what he is doing. PC says he is trying to figure out which box goes with computer and if it will do what he needs to do. Mac then says "that looks pretty complicated". PC says "Really, what do you do? Mac holds up a box with Snow Leopard and says this can be installed on any Mac and will work the same on any Mac. PC just signs and puts his head down on the table.

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"If MS can look at the hardware and set the funtionality of Win 7 to work or not, then why can't they protect us against security issues from viruses and malware?"

First,they partially do it with both Vista and Windows 7, which are far more secure than Windows XP.

Second, if they rendered Antivirus completely useless, they would get sued by companies such as Mc Afee and Symantec.

Ever heard of the Vista x64 kernel protection mechanism ?

This mechanism enabled the kernel to auto repair itself and thus prevented any modification of this kernel.

This feature  was as such the one of the most powerful security feature either implemented on a Windows O.S.

A side effect was that it  prevent AntiVirus such as McAfee to install themselves.

Thus Microsoft get sued by both Symantec and McAfee for unfair competition and as usual these two get support from the EU.

The result was that Microsoft had to tone down this mechanism thus reducing the inherent security of Windows Vista x64.

"PC says he is trying to figure out which box goes with computer and if it will do what he needs to do. Mac then says "that looks pretty complicated". PC says":

"My builders take care of that for me."

"Mac holds up a box with Snow Leopard and says this can be installed on any Mac and will work the same on any Mac."

....with a big fine-print disclaimer at the bottom excluding every Mac that doesn't contain a Core 2 processor, and mentioning that "works the same on any Mac" excludes performance differences between CPU models and GPU processing from Grand Central on varying GPU's, as well as outlining incompatible GPU's....

Oh wait.  The Apple lawyers just handle that if anybody sues for fraudulent advertising.

Oh wait.  The Apple lawyers just handle that if anybody sues for fraudulent advertising...

No one is going to sue Apple for saying this. Unlike MS ads, which do mislead, everyone sees the Apple ads as entertainment. All the Apple ads did was cause me to look at the iMac and based on what I saw and the problems I was having with Vista I decided to switch. It was more about Vista than Apple.

One more thing.

"My builders take care of that for me."

This line implies he is buying a new computer. If that is the case there are no new Apple computers that you can buy that won't run OS 10. PC statment would give legal cover for Apple.

That's like saying: "If Apple can make OS X work on common Intel hardware, why don't they just release it for all PC's?".

It is my understanding that if you can't get Win 7 to run on your MSI Wind, you can get it to run OS 10

Hang, on, isn't the hardware limit in place to stop vendors from installing the cheapest version of win7 on any hardware?

If it wasnt in place, then I can well foresee some dodgy vendors selling PCs with "WINDOWS 7" emblazoned everywhere, and cutting costs by installing the Starter version.

Basically, the limits are there to specify what exactly counts as a "starter" pc so people don't take advantage.

"Mac holds up a box with Snow Leopard and says this can be installed on any Mac and will work the same on any Mac."

That is a blatantly false assumption you are making considering Snow leopard is only going to be available on Intel Macs and not the Power PC Macs. Even Leopard put some restrictions in place for older Macs.

Most people buy PC's with Windows installed and don't even have disk for them. (Most OEM's now use recovery partitions instead of disk.)

That is a blatantly false assumption you are making considering Snow leopard is only going to be available on Intel Macs and not the Power PC Macs. Even Leopard put some restrictions in place for older Macs.

I was not aware that you can buy a Power PC Mac anymore.

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Snow Leopard will be a much needed improvement to Leopard and will run on all 5 of their computers. All of them are over- priced, all of them have a lot of gotcha's. But if you're a Mac fanboi it won't matter. You happily overpay, and when a DVD gets stuck in the drive, you buy a new laptop. Need a faster hard drive in a Mini, you have to boot to an external drive. Get ready to bend over Mac boi's its coming.

Power PC didn't work well on Leopard and not at all with Snow Leopard. (I know I tried)

Let's put some perspective back in this. The Apple ads are entertaning. The PC character is actually more likable than Mac is. This is pure entertainment. They could be talking about carrots and beets for all I care. I have a iMac and a PC. I use the iMac. The next time I buy a computer I will consider both. I helped a friend buy a cheap Dell and I know I will never do that again.

Apple probably won't make OS X available the PC, because they would then have to make it compatible with existing hardware, and it would lessen demand for their premium hardware.

Some enterprising hackers have coerced OS X to work on an ordinary PC, and I tried that once. But it was ineffective with no wireless, half the sound outputs missing, flaky sleep and other problems. Not ease of use at all.

"No one is going to sue Apple for saying this."

Anybody with an unsupported Mac would.

"This line implies he is buying a new computer."

....and Starter isn't available at retail.  See my point?  Windows 7 Home Premium and Professional will be all you'll see at retail, and any computer than can run one will run the other.

"It is my understanding that if you can't get Win 7 to run on your MSI Wind, you can get it to run OS 10"

AFAIK every MSI Wind will run Windows 7.  You can't legally install OS X on it, and there's major technical hurdles around getting it to run on anything other than the Mac-specific EFI 1.1 BIOS.

"I was not aware that you can buy a Power PC Mac anymore."

It was you that stated that it will run on all Mac's.  That would assume that upgraders would buy Snow Leopard too.  Try and backpedal all you want, but you were the one putting forth the statement.

@g6672D

I've seen some hackintosh installations that were fully functional especially since they've been doing it for years now. There are now a one program installation program that fools OS-X to work. You just have to find the really good install programs. Or you can just get yourself a copy of VMware and a properly hacked version for VMware. Not that I have done it personally, but I have a few friends who have done it.

There's no reason why Apple restricts OS-X except to have a monopoly on the hardware. If anything, Apple's business would explode 20 fold if they loosened its grip on the OS. However, I expect Microsoft to find a legal way to emulate OS-X in Windows and thus forcing Apple into the PC vs PC desktop battle.

If anything, if I was Microsoft, I would definitely would goad Apple into a PC vs PC battle for the desktops. If Microsoft can prove that OS-X doesn't work as well on the PC, it could be a marketing battle that could be very effective.

"Hang, on, isn't the hardware limit in place to stop vendors from installing the cheapest version of win7 on any hardware?

If it wasnt in place, then I can well foresee some dodgy vendors selling PCs with "WINDOWS 7" emblazoned everywhere, and cutting costs by installing the Starter version."

Good point. I think it's good MS is doing this in a way. You don't want a $1000 desktop with a Windows 7 sticker running Windows Starter. That would be a repeat of the "Vista Capable" debacle.

Subzero,

That is the most ridiculous post you've ever made.  If you can't understand why....well, I guess that explains why you posted it in the first place.

Which is unfortunate, because you are usually one of the only sane posters on the board.

I can't imagine apple would ever unlock their OS

I suspect that they just aren't interested in the crapstorm of driver support issues it would bring about, as it would doubtless affect their "stability" claim (whether you currently believe they have this superiority in stability or not is a moot point).

Apple makes their money selling hardware.  They have absolutely no motivation to license the OS to other companies.  It would cost them in the long run.

To the topic at hand, seems like a good idea to lift the 3 app limit, even if just for PR reasons.  I think it was generally viewed as arbitrary and ill conceived.

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You people are fun!

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"Apple probably won't make OS X available the PC, because they would then have to make it compatible with existing hardware, and it would lessen demand for their premium hardware."

More importantly, they would then be faced with all the difficulties that Microsoft has in supporting hundreds of millions of PCs and untold numbers of peripherals.

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"There's no reason why Apple restricts OS-X except to have a monopoly on the hardware"

Apple restricts it for quality control.  

One of the biggest complaints about Windows is that its installed on un-powered hardware and loaded with craplets that make that un-powered hardware even worse.  Oh and 3-4 stickers placed on the computer by a 3 year old.

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"Oh and 3-4 stickers placed on the computer by a 3 year old."

What's it feel like knowing you're the odd person out amonst your peers?

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Actually gents, Leopard, Mac OS 10.5, runs fine on my 1999 G4 that has a CPU upgrade from a 450 MHz G4 to a 1.25 GHz G4. I run lots of programs on it. Some of the Webkinz web games run slow, everything else is quick. It's only got 1GB of RAM. Pretty good for a 10 year computer!!! How many times did any of you upgrade your PC's in that time? But yes, I did buy a new one two years ago, and my home built XP box is running fine after 4 to 5 years as well.

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Pingback spam. But oh well, reply.

subzero*: It was a while back, so no doubt it's gotten better.

gorath/WebGuy3000/bettieblu: Pretty much that.

On the 3-apps limitation, even if it's rare, it's ridiculous, and it's good they're removing it. They'd better do the same for the wallpaper.

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"I was not aware that you can buy a Power PC Mac anymore."

Quit trying to change the subject. Your comment was about upgrading a PC vs upgrading a MAC. Power PC Macs are only three to four years old and are being completely dropped from support for new upgrades by Apple. Win 7 is known to work on PC's over six years old, as long as they have at least 512 MB of RAM and near a 1 GHZ processor.

So your simplicity argument (and commercial) are complete garbage.

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@panache1023,

I don't get your point. Apple has not coded OS-X properly for AMD processor's nor have they coded for the tremendous volume of hardware support on the PC side. They would find the can of worms that Microsoft tackles on a daily basis, and find themselves woefully unprepared. If you think the support forums on Apple's website has a lot of turnout, wait until they actually have to go head to head with Microsoft with both hardware and software support.

Doesn't sound so ridiculous now does it? By locking themselves to a restricted hardware set, the amount of work needed to go toe to toe within the PC side would take Apple quite sometime, and be a great PR victory. If anyone in Microsoft had the brains to go through with such a bold attack strategy.

It just seems like as soon as I'm critical of Apple, no matter how rational the criticism, I'm pounced on. Nobody gives a damn whether its feasable or even true. I'm labeled as anti-Apple or crazy. Sorry, I don't buy that at all. If you want to be critical of someone, fine. Explain yourself. If not, stay off the forum if you can't make a good point.

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Wow...I saw over 100 comments and figured a major OS war had broken out again...not that it hasn't...but the pingbacks are heavy today. I wonder what the keyword was that got them going?

Smart move by Microsoft to remove that limitation. The others...whoever said that it is there to stop cheapo PC makers from marketing PC's with 7, only to install Starter on it.

Have a good Memorial Day weekend, everybody...remember why we have it, too please.

--tayme

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Do you guys really think that the limitation was such a big deal? Starter is for low end hardware and one most likely would not need to have more than a couple apps running, since most of these will probably on netbooks, and low end hardware won't be able to run high end apps requiring better hardware. IS this due to apps running in the background, because if not, most of us average users only run one to three apps at a  time.

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<Devil's advocate>

There IS a technical benefit to limiting processes... it means the ones that are allowed to run will probably run better.

</Devil's advocate>

That said, a 3 app limit (even if there WERE exceptions) seemed kind of draconian, so this is likely a smart move.

MS seems bound and determined to co-opt the "I-can't-afford-Windows-so-I'll-pirate-it" community; wonder if that will translate to lower prices for retail upgrades?

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It ceases to amaze me how low Windows fans want to set the bar. They remove the 3 app limit and people are dancing in the streets and trying to nominate Ballmer for a Nobel prize.

"Win 7 is known to work on PC's over six years old, as long as they have at least 512 MB of RAM and near a 1 GHZ processor."

Good luck with those specs.  Windows 7 and is night and day better than Vista, but sorry I have been running it for a two weeks now as my primary OS at work with 1 2.4ghz CPU and 1gig of ram and its slower than XP on the same exact hardware.  Not by a big margin, but when I am moving around through multiple apps, IE, AD tools, vmware client, netapp system manager etc, there are pauses, that remind of Vista and the overall feel is slightly slower than XP, and that is with classic mode turned on.

7 all came to end for me on Thursday when I upgraded my VMware virtual center client to the new 4.0 vSphere client and it bombed on 7.  AS I live in that tool its back to XP until its RTM and VMware updates its software.

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Bttieblu, try turning Aero on. Contrary to popular belief / mass hysteria, if your hardware can do aero at all, it will actually result in better performance.

But, as you say, it's performance is very near XP, and I have seen several instances of it being (feeling?) even faster, and also others where it felt (or was?) slightly slower.

That in itself is no mean feat for an OS that is 8 years younger, if you see what I mean.

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@ bettieblu:

W7 runs spectacularly on those specs from the experience of not only myself, but also the many thousands of people have been testing it on such hardware. Every where you go there are comments that it feels faster than XP on the same hardware. I am more inclined to believe many thousands over one or two who claim other wise.

I dont think Aero is going to fix it.  

I have classic mode on and in the advanced settings I have "best performance" checked which turns off all gui effects, shadows, menu animation etc.  The gui is very snappy with those settings and it uses 100meg less of RAM, bet its little pauses that are not there with XP and like Vista.  I like 7 a lot and will actively promote it after its RTM when in meetings about the next desktop platform in our company.

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I don't get it.  The iPhone has a 1-app limit, yet somehow that is a "good" thing.  Go figure...

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"but also the many thousands of people have been testing it on such hardware."

Many thousands testing 7 sure.  Many thousands testing 7 on a single 1ghz core with 512 meg of ram and saying its faster than XP, not so much.

Doing a quick google search on "Windows 7 on 512 meg of ram" these two links say it will run on 512, which I never doubted, but both say its slow, and even slower than XP.

blogs.zdnet.com/Bott

mintywhite.com/.../update-windows-seven-7-512mb-ram-under-normal-use

Seriously would you reccomend to someone that had an older PC with 512megs of RAM and XP to upgrade to 7?

I might if they were a light user and that recomendation would be to buy 2gigs of RAM from newegg with their OEM copy of 7 premium.  If they did not want to spend a dime on hardware I would tell them not to bother.

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"Seriously would you reccomend to someone that had an older PC with 512megs of RAM and XP to upgrade to 7?

I might if they were a light user and that recomendation would be to buy 2gigs of RAM from newegg with their OEM copy of 7 premium.  If they did not want to spend a dime on hardware I would tell them not to bother."

To be honest with you, I wouldn't recommend anyone with less that a gig of RAM and a PC older than 4 years old to upgrade to 7. It would be much better for that person to spend $400-$500 on a new desktop or $500-$600 on a new laptop than to do RAM upgrades and spend the money on a copy of 7 for such a old PC. They are going to be happier in the long run to just buy a new PC, even a cheap one considering how much processing power so little money buys these  days.

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So "waethorn" found himself a new avatar. Classy, "Wae". At least I won't need to read your posts to be reminded what a sick fukk you are."

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I here ya Todd. My ACER laptop was $399 after $100 savings from Bestbuy, and you would rally be shocked to view it's screen and it's speed for something so inexpensive. websurfing with games while watching a DVD play and having Word open runs just fine. It ran almost 3 hrs like this. There are always sales, and most laptop that cost $100 to $200 more have even better specs. Now throw in Win7 when it ships, and watch the happiness, especially in todays economy. Don't get me wrong because I love high end towers, like my dual boot [Leopard and Vista] Mac Pro Tower 3GHz Quad, RAID 0 with 4 GB of RAM. But that laptop really does the job and some more. It's not a desktop replacement, but does all most would need, and is portable. I'd buy another.

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The real issue, I suspect, is the fact that Microsoft really doesn't want to be selling low priced versions of an OS to a large segment of the market--a problem they've been stuck with since netbooks hit and they had to bring back XP after, despite all the issues, Linux systems were selling, clearly based on price.  The cheap XP version allowed MS to claim that market back--but it's not a real money maker for them.

The 3 application limit was a way to get a low priced OS that Microsoft hoped users would upgrade to a "more robust" version once they hit the first complaint.  So Windows based netbooks would still be able to be sold inexpensively, but Microsoft would then collect the rest of the "real" licensing fee from the users.

I see this as linked to Dell's widely reported whining last week on Windows 7 pricing, with the implied threat that if Microsoft didn't give in they (and perhaps other netbook vendors) would market hard for another OS standard install against Windows 7, using the price hammer.  

In the manufacturer's view, I suspect the only thing this limit did was put all of the money in MS's pocket.  The low margins of netbooks isn't only a problem with the OS vendor.  The hardware vendors sold at no margin, and then MS picked up a full upgrade price when users upgraded (with bad feelings going back primarily to the manufacturer that put that limited OS on the machine).

Financial reality is that netbooks are not a bonanza financially for anyone in the mix--they are machine a vendor has to sell and it's sold almost exlcusively on price.

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Segons informa Paul Thurrot en el seu conegut Supersite for Windows, Microsoft elimina del Windows 7 Starter Edition la limitaci&oacute; a executar tres aplicacions de forma simult&agrave;nia...

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