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Looks cool on the surface. I hope the UI and functionality is as good as the current models. In all reality, I doubt that it will make a dent in the iPod dominance, though...but like all of the fans of OS X know(even if its only in their own minds), it does not need to be the number 1 seller to be the best. Best is what works for a given person...it is usually something different for each person.

--tayme

Looks square and clunky (Trademark Microsoft). It's too late for the Zune. The Zune is dead.

"The Zune is dead... "

...Long live the Zune.

You're right, robertsjoe. It does look pretty good.

If I understand it correctly, HD radio just makes use of more frequencies...the even numbered decimals...like, if you have 95.7 in your town; you may also get another broadcast on 95.8. Standard FM goes from 95.7 to 95.9.

--tayme

Seems that I am wrong. Here is an explanation of HD Radio - www.hdradio.com/what_is_hd_digital_radio.php

--tayme

PS - See how easy it is to admit when you are wrong, mikegalos???

Looks very, VERY promising. If they have the ability to transfer CableCard recorded shows from Media Center over to the device, then this is a game changer. I am already excited about:

* HDMI output to TVs

* Subscription music service

* HD Radio

* Possible Flash movie/music over the web??

The iPod Touch is nice, but I really don't use 99% of the apps installed, and I don't have docks, boxes, etc of the "ecosystem", so this device could cause me to actually drop my 7-year long Rhapsody subscription I love so much.

"Update: The Guardian reports that Microsoft told it to expect movie, TV and music downloads via the Zune marketplace on 360. In addition, a subscription service like (or one and the same to) Zune Pass will likely be offered to Live users, allowing them unlimited song playback and 10 song downloads a month for a set fee."

They're finally integrating different services - something MS should have done a couple of years ago, I think. Maybe they should think about making the subscription plan (without the ten free downloads, perhaps) free with an XBox Live Gold membership.

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considering Sony just released its X series Walkman.... I wonder what the price is for this.

"...based on WindowsCE... doesn't seem like a selling point to me.  Other than that, seems like a good product.

Note: I'm the Apple guy (since 1977) who now has a Dell desktop running Win 7RC, and a (flash-based) Zune (I don't want a portable spinning disk iPod/Zune-like device). I also like the Zune store better (for music) than the iTunes store, and the Zune (recent version) at least as well as iPod nano. I might be the only entity who listens to Leo's MacBreak Weekly on a Zune or using the Zune software on his desktop.

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If the Zune HD comes out on Sept 5th, it'll be a few days before my birthday: DO WANT!!!

My car's radio has HD but I don't notice the differences. It might be better with music. I tend to listen to talk radio (NPR and local sports stations) when I'm driving.

Oh and I think it's that Zune logo that's making it look clunky. Change the logo to an apple, and, my word, it is amazingly well designed.

I first saw this on Beyond Binary. It's cool that you're giving credit to the person that broke the news, Paul. Lots of people aren't.

BTW I don't like the metal's color. I hope there'll be some choice colors, like white or graphite.

Will the rest of the world get the old Zune at the very least?

Oh yea, I'm in Australia.

this couuld be quitee interesting..... if it comes along with a version of an app store and is infact based on Windows CE it could be a much better development platform then iPhone because of the massive amount of windows developers and that it would probably support some form of the .Net framework.  

no retraining nessacary for development

Remind me again why this /isn't/ a phone?

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Any chance that they will make the dock connector compatible with the iPod?  The pin outs are available anywhere on the net... It would be awesome to have the ability to use the accessories for iPod.  That would really make the decision easier for some people.

"considering Sony just released its X series Walkman"

"Sony"?  "Walkman"?  What is this, 1986?

As far as looks go, this thing isn't bad; better than I expected from Microsoft anyway. Still angular and harsh, but that's better than the Gawd-awful Zunes we've seen so far. Looks like they got some mileage out of a few actual designers before the recent personnel purge.

Still don't see anything particularly compelling here, but I'm sure it will appeal to a certain niche market, and certainly the "Anything That Comes From Microsoft Is Better Than The Alternative" WinJihadist crowd.

"no retraining nessacary [sic] for development"

Yeah, 'cuz, you know, that's been a HUGE problem for developers on the iPhone OS platform </sarcasm>

"HD Radio" is nice, I suppose, if you're into listening to terrestrial radio. The business model of putting up an antenna and broadcasting to anyone who wants to "dial in" is over, though. They just haven't buried the body. With the advent of Internet radio, I barely (and rarely) listen to broadcast stations. My Palm Centro (insert "Waethorn" snarky comment here) does a great job of pulling in all the Internet radio I need with virtually no commercials. Between that, podcasts and music, who needs radio? Seriously. I just don't see this as a killer feature, but whatever. For those that want it, I guess it's cool that they tossed it in there.

"I might be the only entity who listens to Leo's MacBreak Weekly on a Zune or using the Zune software on his desktop."

Well...you and "Mikegalos".

holy crap! this is a game changer! the iPod is deadmeat..

;-)

She is purty.  Radio is for out of town rental cars that have no aux jack that the company rented me.

It wont make a difference, it wont hurt the Zune market share, but it wont help it.

Unless it is _significantly_ cheaper, it will die. If it's only marginally cheaper, it won't win the market - after all, why by the "2nd coming" if you can get the "real thing" (iPod Touch) for just a bit more cash?

Also:

"organic light-emitting diode (OLED)"

That sounds like it could be the beginning of a new era of returns and poor product quality. I'm just guessing here, but as the red ring has crippled MS in terms of returns and support costs, I reckon the screen is going to be the deal breaker here.OLEDs are extremely sensitive to water, moisture, and hence humidity. Not an ideal match for a portable device

US only? oh for chrissakes. WHY?

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It looks good, but this is in no way changing the game. Biggest thing, people dont care about radio and the screen rez is meh. For the vast majority of people there is no compelling argument for them to make the switch from whatever they might be using.

Also Apple realizes this market is last bastion of the DAP market eventually "the Classic" models go away, whether everyone wants it or not. I'm sure there will be some DAP market but eventually it gets smaller.

Simply put. the genie was out of the bottle a long time ago and MS missed its chance to catch it a long time ago, let alone stuff it back in.

And on top of all this the DAP market is crowded. Apple has crushed many players over the years but they are not the only ones left. The Zuen has been trying since 2006 to catch these players and it still hasn't vanquished any of them.

In short this isn't MS competing against Apple as much as some might think (or hope) this is MS trying to compete against the likes of Cowon , Sansa and convergent phone devices which is where the future lies. And that space is just as crowded, phones even more so. MS can't use the tactics they did/do in the desktop arena to "win" this, its simply not possible.

Lastly, this will be interesting to watch as the first Zune went no where and its a crowded playing field,

Robertsjoe: get a life.

joisey: that's actually a pretty good idea!  It would make my choice of getting a Zune much easier. Why have double the accesories sitting around.

John, yes you are the Apple guy. What I like about you and actual "Apple" guys and not "Mac" guys is that your comments are logical, and fair and open minded.  I like Macs, have supported them.

And once again, I just don't understand why the childish Mac morons come here and just troll in the comments day after day. Go to your appleinsider.com or somewhere. Get a life!

Back on topic. I'm curious as to what file formats this Zune can play, like avi, mpeg?  To be fair I dont' know what all formats the iPhone can play either. Can you the iPhone play an mp4? avi? mpeg?

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Dude 1313 - Just because you don't listen to the radio doesn't mean that it's not a big deal for a great deal of consumers.

Let me give you an example.

In the UK, the most popular morning radio show (of which there are many) has just over 7 million listeners. It is closely followed by another, more regional morning show, which has ratings just under the 7 million mark.

that's 14 million people in the UK, listening to only two shows.

Figures released in 2002 showed that BBC radio stations alone acounted for 32.7 million listeners per week, and the figure has grown year on year (although I do not have precise current figures to hand).

Now, sure, many of those people might not ever listen on a portable device, but it's still a significant enough market to warrant a device that can receive radio.

But hey, that's in the UK, where radio is still popular, and, annoyingly the zune appears to be passing us by again.

"I dont' know what all formats the iPhone can play either. Can you the iPhone play an mp4? avi? mpeg?"

10 seconds of research (there's this thing called "Google" on the "Internet"):

iPod Touch specifications:

TV and video

   * Support for 480p and 576p component TV out

   * H.264 video, up to 1.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30 frames per second, Low-Complexity version of the H.264 Baseline Profile with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats; H.264 video, up to 2.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30 frames per second, Baseline Profile up to Level 3.0 with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats; MPEG-4 video, up to 2.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30 frames per second, Simple Profile with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats

Forgot the attribution for my last post:

www.apple.com/.../specs.html

Hey Lotsa,

Do NOT lecture me or reply like that to me again.

My question was kinda rhetorical.

"My question was kinda rhetorical."

And we would know this...how?

@DavidR

OLEDs aren't really a problem. Sony have been using them for some time on their Walkman series (- they call all their portable players by the walkman name, because, hey, they invented this niche years ago.) I've had a sony device for some time, and whilst their software was inexcusably bad, the device was magnificent, and very reliable.

I've crashed a mountain bike several times with the player in my pocket, and it's survived fine. it's also been subjected to rain, mud, dust, shock and humidity, and it's fine - so I don't thin OLEDs will be a problem.

Of course, that's assuming that their quality control is going to be a bit more stringent that it was for the Xbox :-p

That is a nice looking device, but we basically saw it weeks ago.  OLED screens are great.  It has been quite some time for them to start gaining traction from one of the first uses of OLED in the US on the LG VX6000, but there is now a lot of new devices coming out with OLED screens, and it is rumored that the next gen iPhone will also have one.  It's the way to go.

Some terrestrial stations are only in HD these days, so including that is necessary if you want to keep the FM transmitter.  Ideally I'd like to see a sat radio tuner in a compelling portable device, but it really doesn't exist and probably never will.

This will be exactly like the last Zune.  DOA except among windows geeks that are desparate for anything/something that's not from apple.  Why:

- no App store or nothing remotely like the App store (in terms of breadth and number of apps) on launch, or even in the forseeable future.  This limits usefulness even as a music player. E.g, no Pandora, no internet radio apps, etc.  Bet there won't be a Youtube or Hulu app either.  Or sports video apps.  

- Lack of communication/social networking apps.  Other key apps will be missing - twitter, social networking, ebay, news apps (like NY times, AP).  Email?  I wouldn't be surprised if it's missing.

- there may be some x-box related gaming tie-ins, but nothing like the vast number of cheap games available on the Touch (at launch or in the forseeable future).

- no camera.  Indications are that apple is going to start adding cameras to iPod touches or even possibly the nano.  If the new iPod touch has a flash and video capability, which are likely, seriously, why would anyone buy a Zune HD?

- likely no GPS or turn by turn directions.  The next iPod touch is rumored to have gps.  and turn by turn is coming to the platform.  Even if no GPS is in the Touch, the new bluetooth APIs will allow communication to an external device.

- interface will probably not live up to the iPod/iPhone touch interface, or at a minimum, be much less capable.  This is going to be a 1.0 release of presumably an entirely new interface.  Either it's going to aim for a mark or goal far below the iPhone/iPod touch interface, and thus "succeed" but be inferior, or try to be as good and capable and intuitive as the iPhone/iPod touch, and simply not get there as a 1.0 product.

- limited accessory support.  Why go with the slim pickings for an alternative device?  Also, accessory support on the iPod/iTouch platform is about to expand in usefullness and capability, with th enew hardware interface and bluetooth APIs.

- calendar/PIM - somehow I think they will leave these out for now.  Not everyone uses this stuff, but many do or at least think they might.  PDAs were popular for a while.

- radio - llikely won't be a selling point as the new iphone and touch will probably have fm radio reception (apple is using a new chip that has it built in)

- stigma - last zune failed.  MS has a poor reputation with most consumers, largely based on windows.

So, it's good MS is getting into the game, I guess.  Competition is good.  But  the very real problem MS faces is that they are far, far behind and apple keeps moving forward, leaving most consumers with little (if any) reason to go with MS's work-in-progress.

Still, DivX and XviD support are really needed, or would be really great. I'm hoping that the iPhone jailbreaking community will do it. Right now, there are radio apps at the iPhone store, including Satillite radio [Pocket Tunes app] for XM and Sirius. It still requires a subscription.

There we go again - iCabalists are back to labeling anyone that would be interested in this. It's also fascinating to see how much time they spend talking about a "DOA" device.

@lotsa

If you look at the recently released X-series Walkman, which has been playing mp3 for the last decade, you will notice how good it looks and the music output surpasses even the iPod (and its different incarnation). the only that sucks is the price.

Paul, thanks for the Zune HD article. It almost had me thinking I should "accidentally" break my current Zune 8Gig sometime around September.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Will the bloggers treat it they way they do Vista (not noticing that Vista works and has for quite a while), or will they give this Zune a chance?

As to my snarky comment earlier about WindowsCE: does CE actually work now? (My reflexive avoidance goes back to its early days.)

"does CE actually work now?"  Sure works great in our store handheld scanners doing one thing, inventory.  On my WinMO not so much as I take the battery out once a day to unfreeze it.

Nothing new, really, to add to since the announcement of the Zune HD , except that Windows guru Paul

@johnbaxter: "does CE actually work now?"  

Zune's OS is already based on Windows CE. Have you had problems with it?

Cesjr, wow, I didn't know you were psychic.

Or so pessimistic.

"Still angular and harsh, but that's better than the Gawd-awful Zunes we've seen so far."

Like the other Zune's it's far more grip-able than curved survaces like the iPod Nano and touch.  The less-smooth surface on the Zune 2.0 80GB that I have won't slide around in my hand while using it - and YES!, I've tried an iPod touch, and that's EXACTLY what happens, like it's coated in Teflon or something.  Apple (or other, non-validated, expropriated-from-Apple 3rd-parties) charge dearly to fix that "feature" through the use of rubberized cases that cover up Apple's design too.  That's either marketing fluff or a UX design flaw.  Take your pick.

""HD Radio" is nice, I suppose, if you're into listening to terrestrial radio."

US ONLY.  Don't expect the Zune HD to be released worldwide anytime soon because of that.  The rest of the world uses Eureka DAB.

"My Palm Centro (insert "Waethorn" snarky comment here)"

*snicker*  I'd say you have my pity, but you don't even deserve it.

Does look good, but I wonder if MS will lose interest before it can reach it's full potential.

cesjr, you have some insider information on how the device works?  You certainly seem to have said an awful lot about it, so I assume you know something we don't.

Microsoft is playing checkers while Apple plays Chess.

cesjr summed it all up well. This device is, at best, a catch up to ipod touch 1.0, but Apple has moved on. I won't repeat cesjr's comments, but the biggest issue is no app store.

The HDMI to TV is nice, but these mobile things are really for mobile use. I'm more interested in hooking it up to a projector via VGA for presentations, except you probably don't have the software to use it that way, and that is again the difference.

The comment "WTF is HD radio?" kind of makes it clear how important THAT feature is. Anyway, doesn't everyone use Pandora these days? Or other streaming approaches?

This isn't "bad", although we still need to hear pricing, it is just another Zune copying what Apple did 2 iterations back.

"Like the other Zune's it's far more grip-able than curved survaces like the iPod Nano and touch."

Oh, so you've actually held one? You certainly seem to know an awful lot about it, so I assume you know something we don't (there, Dipsh*t, I did your job for you. I know you're loath to criticize a WinJihadist).

"That's either marketing fluff or a UX design flaw.  Take your pick."

I call that a "Waethorn Strawman" and knock it down with a casual glance.

"...won't slide around in my hand while using it - and YES!, I've tried an iPod touch, and that's EXACTLY what happens..."

That's because you're such a greaseball, "Waethorn".

Considering that not all features are known, I wonder where "cesjr" and "chuckb84" got all these details from.

From the ZuneInsider blog:

"There is more goodness to come, but we wanted to take a moment to announce what we are working on both on the hardware, and software services front. Stay tuned to here for more info."

"Anyway, doesn't everyone use Pandora these days? "

No.

"If you look at the recently released X-series Walkman, which has been playing mp3 for the last decade..."

I didn't know the X-Series Walkman had been available for 10 years. But I checked out a review, and here's what Wired had to say:

"While it’s not as polished as an iPod, it’s certainly more smartly assembled than the oafish Zune. What’s better, it has a few features the iPod Touch doesn’t: Slacker service, physical buttons, integrated noise canceling. What’s worse, though, is a web browser that’s fairly crappy. Inputting text is frustrating and error-prone, and the battery doesn’t seem to last more than five hours of continuous use."

So what's the point? That it's "Not From Apple"? Seriously, is that really where the bar is set these days?

"Oh, so you've actually held one?"

I have held my Zune 80GB, which has hard edges and surfaces which are far-less smooth than an iPod touch, yes.  The Zune HD looks to be extremely similar, or do you claim somehow that the hard edges are somehow different between devices, and unlike the rounded-back mirror-surface iPod touch, or are you just stupid?

"That's because you're such a greaseball, "Waethorn"."

Sorry you're wrong - I'm not the one in marketing, advocating Mac usage, while flamebaiting someone during downtime on a persistant basis.

Ultimately losta, you are the result of your own imaginary personification of others.

"That it's "Not From Apple"? Seriously, is that really where the bar is set these days?"

Not really. Tech reviewers use three categories:

1. From Apple

2. From everyone else, except Microsoft

3. From Microsoft

Products are reviewed differently based on these categories.

Sigh. Most of this can wait until the thing, actually----what is the phrase---oh, yah, "ships".

While it is entertaining to speculate on partial specifications of an unreleased device, it will probably be more fun to talk about the real one, when it finally ships.

Based on what we know -now-, this doesn't seem that interesting or important, just another catch-up device to get where Apple has already been. But, who knows? Maybe there are "secret features" yet to come.

Nice piece of kit. It will be interesting to see what comes out of the complete announcement next week and not the "rumored to have this that or the other thing". The key will be the degree of integration between Zune and Xbox.

"I'm not the one in marketing, advocating Mac usage, while flamebaiting someone during downtime on a persistant [sic] basis."

No, you're the one in Canada, marketing your own store with MS Publisher's clipart collection, hanging out at Apple stores advocating PC usage to potential customers, and flamebaiting everyone who doesn't subscribe to your Win-centric view of the world during your downtime, which seems to be substantial.

"you are the result of your own imaginary personification of others"

No, everything I said above is true, and based on your own words. You, OTOH, keep getting it wrong.

"I have held my Zune 80GB...The Zune HD looks to be extremely similar"

Really?

www.cliczune.com/.../zune_80_originals.jpg

Your steady diet of McDonald's Angus Beef must be affecting your eyesight.

lotsa, I barely read Waethorn's posts, so I didn't even know he was comparing how it looks/feels.  So there.  Seriously, there isn't a huge amount to go on here, and to sing the praises or knock it down when we don't know all of the details is certainly futile.

"So what's the point? That it's "Not From Apple"? Seriously, is that really where the bar is set these days?"

What's NOT the point?  Is no one else allowed to compete in a market that Apple is in?  Whatever happened to "thinking different?"

yeah, the current logic still applies that to make any appreciable difference to the market leader your product must be 10x better.  This device appears at first blush to be inferior compared to yesterday's Touch and will probably be comparably priced.  This appears to be nothing more than a halfhearted 'me too' product.  I cannot wait to see just how much money Microsoft loses on this one.

"Is no one else allowed to compete in a market that Apple is in? "

Didn't say that. I'm all for competition. I also believe that to be successful, MS and others are going to have to offer something compelling other than "it's not from Apple". From the review I quoted, which was generally positive, that seems to be its biggest attribute. Not price, not features, not styling, not usability. Just "not from Apple". That's a pretty low bar, and not the one manufacturers should be striving to jump over.

For the record, dip...I WANT lots of competition for the iPod. I want other companies to push Apple to make it even better. I want the raising tide to lift all ships. I'd be thrilled to see someone completely leapfrog what Apple's done, because that, in turn, would make Apple work even harder than they already are to make the next generation even that much better. So far, that hasn't happened.

Clear enough? Good.

"Whatever happened to "thinking different?""

With the plethora of "me too" products out there, that's a very fair question, and one you should probably put to Microsoft, Sony and others.

"From the review I quoted, which was generally positive, that seems to be its biggest attribute. Not price, not features, not styling, not usability. Just "not from Apple". That's a pretty low bar, and not the one manufacturers should be striving to jump over. "

That is the reviewers fault. Most reviewers that review "not from Apple" products start with the assumption that Apple's products are perfect. Anything the "not from Apple" product does differently is labeled a design flaw. The reviewer intentionally gives the impression that the product will only appeal to those that dislike Apple. Sorry, but reviewer's bias plays a major part  in all this.

"marketing your own store with MS Publisher's clipart collection"

Sorry, but that's wrong.  Not a single image is clipart.

"hanging out at Apple stores advocating PC usage to potential customers"

I never said I "hang out at Apple stores".  You are just wrong.

"and flamebaiting everyone who doesn't subscribe to your Win-centric view of the world during your downtime"

Wrong again.  It's just you.

Speaking of which, I hadn't even commented in the past few posts until you brought up my name as flamebait.

You contribute nothing of value here.

"Your steady diet of McDonald's Angus Beef must be affecting your eyesight."

Point confirmed.

Both devices have a brushed metal finish.  The iPod touch is mirror-finish with rounded edges.  I've held a Zune 80GB and an iPod touch, which is at least 50% more than you.

"I'd be thrilled to see someone completely leapfrog what Apple's done"

....and yet when it comes to marketing and sales of Windows, or non-Apple PC's, you come up empty for compliments of Microsoft.

Figures....

"With the plethora of "me too" products out there, that's a very fair question, and one you should probably put to Microsoft, Sony and others."

....or to Apple for AppleTV, yet no compliments for Media Center.

Or no mention that Microsoft already offered a 64-bit OS down to the kernel, and now Apple is playing catch-up?

Nobody buys your drivel, losta.

As for the criticism about how I can comment without knowing what the device will be like - of course the same can be said of everyone who makes a positive comment.  Positive and negative comments on the Zune HD are based on incomplete info at this point.  

Also, MS brings this stuff on themselves.  I mean, if you put out vapor, you can't expect people to give you a break because you put out vapor.  

Anways, I don't mean to say that MS should be attacked for coming out with zune HD.  After all, they have to start somewhere.  But they should probably wait until they are farther along before announcing these types of things.  I guess that's asking too much from MS who has elevated vapor releases to an art form.

"...[Microsoft] has elevated vapor releases to an art form."

Just like the iCabal has elevated idiocy to an art form.

Oh, I'm sorry, I just assumed all iCabalists were idiots and criticized them based on that assumption.  

Thank you, Shark, bettieblu, and others I may have missed.  I'll stop fearing CE. That's good to know.

WinMo is not in my immediate future (18 months of contract remaining).

My only problems with the Zune seem to be self inflicted (pushing the wrong button--hard since there are two, and I'm getting over it) and leaving it in a state that empties the battery when I think it is off.

@techfan: "BTW I don't like the metal's color. I hope there'll be some choice colors, like white or graphite."

It's probably in black also:

www.zunethoughts.com/.../say-hello-to-the-zune-hd.html

OK, then correction: You go there to kill time and market to their customers. You call it "killing time", I call it "hanging out". That's a minor difference at best.

To wit, let's read one of your own stories about your marketing brilliance and the apocryphal evidence of bumbling Apple Store employees:

"i recently went into the only branded Apple store that i know of in Canada - in the Eaton Centre in Toronto - while killing some time before a theatre show. i threw some questions towards their "genius" while talking to some of the store's customers and getting a feel for the atmosphere. the store wasn't very full and there were clearly too many staff on hand for the number of customers. i asked them about Mac's crashing, because of the ads and that YouTube has proof to the contrary. the "genius" blatantly told me that "Mac's don't crash" - essentially outright lying to my face. the lady next to me spoke up and quickly correctly them by saying "That's not true! My Mac crashes all the time!!!". so i looked back at the "genius" while giving him the shrugged shoulder "i don't know" gesture while grinning devilishly. he quickly walked away (nice customer service there). being friendly, as Canadians usually are (as well as knowing how to talk to people from marketing training), i asked her why her Mac crashes, and she didn't know why, but that programs close by themselves and she's had a few kernel panics before....now here's the funny part....she was told by an Apple "genius" that she had used her Mac beyond it's [sic] life expectancy (a G4!!), and that it was "time to look for a new Mac"...."

- Waethorn August 27, 2007

Nice to know that you "know how to talk to people from marketing training", especially inasmuch as you're constantly trashing marketing people.

"apocryphal evidence of bumbling Apple Store employees"

"apocryphal:

Definition: probably not true, but widely believed to be true"

As is the case with many things Apple, there is merit to the belief.  You can try and dispute that all you want - that story is true.

"I call it "hanging out"."

That's such an immature term too.  It shows your age, or your intellect.  In your case, whatever....

"Nice to know that you "know how to talk to people from marketing training", especially inasmuch as you're constantly trashing marketing people."

Sorry, but you're wrong.  It's just two-bit, uncongenial swindlers like yourself.

"I just assumed all iCabalists were idiots and criticized them based on that assumption."

:)

LOL!  That says it all.

"Also, MS brings this stuff on themselves.  I mean, if you put out vapor, you can't expect people to give you a break because you put out vapor.  

Anways, I don't mean to say that MS should be attacked for coming out with zune HD.  After all, they have to start somewhere.  But they should probably wait until they are farther along before announcing these types of things.  I guess that's asking too much from MS who has elevated vapor releases to an art form."

Yes, Microsoft has used this tactic many times to kill competitors products when Microsoft didn't have anything ready to ship. Paul droned on for YEARS about how "Longhorn" would kill OSX, but it didn't quite turn out that way. Now we have the same thing repeating with Windows 7 (which in fairness, doesn't look too bad). This isn't a commentary on the quality of Vista/Longhorn or Windows 7, just on the FUD tactic.

However, the FUD tactic only works when you're the dominant player. If some little competitor has a product out that you want to kill, just make it known that your enormous company is about to come with something just like it, only better, and that, by the way, our FUD product will interoperate with all our other products, you'll have the full faith and credit and reputation of our ginormous company behind it, etc, etc.

That's a well-known and well-understood tactic.

Note how the Zune HD (which isn't full HD and has "HD" radio, that no one knows, uses or cares about) "interoperates" with the XBox. Sounds like the usual playbook, doesn't it?

The only problem is that, in this area, Microsoft is NOT the dominant player, they are in fact a bit player. The preemptive announcement won't have the desired effect because they forgot that this isn't desktop computing, it's mobile computing. Apple owns this market and vapor announcements aren't going to change that.

The whole thing amounts to saying that "We're releasing a portable media player, just like Apple's previous version, with some "features" added."

Before the Zune, Paul went on and on (and on and on) about how Phones would be the iPod killer. He was right, but never figured out that Apple might make......a Phone.

So, now who sells a Phone that has taken over the whole portable computing/media/phone market? Who's still struggling to produce a previous generation technology portable media player?

"That is the reviewers fault. Most reviewers that review "not from Apple" products start with the assumption that Apple's products are perfect."

Shark, that was exactly my point.  The overall assumption from the Apple lovers such as lotsa is that the Apple product is perfect, so how dare any other product compete in the same space.  Listen, there is plenty of competition abound, which lotsa you say you appreciate.  But even competition that is supposedly inferior (at least in the Apple fans eyes) deserves to have a place in the market.  The market will tell them whether it is a failure or not.  And before we go all crazy about the Zune marketshare, let's remember the Mac marketshare.  It's basically the same argument.

"But they should probably wait until they are farther along before announcing these types of things.  I guess that's asking too much from MS who has elevated vapor releases to an art form."

You seem to be misunderstood about what vapor means in the context of the tech space.  Saying that something is going to come out, and even more or less giving a firm date on the release of said product is not vapor.  If the date keeps on slipping and it never comes out, then that was vapor.  Duke Nukem is vapor.  This just released product snippet is not.

And if you dislike the pre-release of bits of information, I'm sure that you don't ever look to to any of the Apple sites that constantly spew out unsubstantiated rumors.  I'm sure you visit those sites and tell everyone that they should just wait until the product is released and not talk about "vapor".  No, nothing?  

<Crickets>

I don't think that HD in Zune HD refers to the HD radio.  If they were to use that, they would have to use the official HD Radio logo, which I don't see here.  I think that they mean HD, such as High Definition content, which will be displayable on a TV, and on its relatively high quality screen.

Still, before any announcements are made, signing the death knell or grand slam success of the device is a little premature, is it not?

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@shark47: Nice! I like that all-black one. Paul in his review of the Zune HD has a shot of a silver-looking version that looks nice, too.

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"And if you dislike the pre-release of bits of information, I'm sure that you don't ever look to to any of the Apple sites that constantly spew out unsubstantiated rumors.  I'm sure you visit those sites and tell everyone that they should just wait until the product is released and not talk about "vapor".  No, nothing?  "

Exactly. Damn it, Apple announced the iPhone in Jan 2007 and finally released it in July. That's 6 months between the announcement and the actual release. By chuck's twisted logic, that's FUD or a vapor announcement until it actually came out.

Snow Leopard was first announced in June 2008. Now, two years later, it still hasn't come out. Again, by chuck's logic, that's FUD or a vapor announcement.

Like dipsh*t says, what about all those snippets of information that get leaked out about future Apple products? Isn't that FUD too?

Geez!

A little premature to make any intelligent judgments of this product but it looks very cool. What version of IE does it use, and how well will it work? To compete with a itouch its gotta be very good.

So here's the thing: as a Zune owner, I can't help but feel sorry for those of you who refuse to consider it for the mere fact that it is a Microsoft device. Sure you may dress it up with any number of real or imagined criticisms, but at the end of the day, it's Microsoft therefore it sucks, right?

For me, the Zune HD is extremely compelling because of three things: Zune Pass, HD Radio and Xbox integration.

Back in the 90s, people were making a big deal about "the celestial jukebox", a then-mythical service that would let people download whatever song they wanted whenever they wanted, providing ultimate music freedom. Zune Pass is that service. Any song I feel like getting, whenever and whyever I feel the urge, for no per-song cost. You can have my Zune Pass when you peel it from my cold, dead fingers.

HD Radio is compelling because every song broadcast on an HD Radio station is tagged with artist/song metadata, which the Zune HD will be able to parse. Which means I can hear a song I like on an HD Radio station, select it and have it downloaded at the next wifi hotspot, all for no per-song cost (thanks to Zune Pass.) This is killer. The existing Zune can already do this with FM radio and RDS, but not all FM stations broadcast usable RDS data.

And I'm glad Microsoft is finally pulling together the Xbox and Zune services. Millions of Xbox 360 owners will have Zune marketed directly at them. I think that may help improve Zune's market share a little. And having Xbox TV show purchases be reflected on Zune and vice-versa is a sorely overdue feature.

So yeah, while Apple may be the leader in this space, Zune is far from a slouch, and if all you see is "it's Microsoft therefore it sucks" well I hope the Steve Jobs kool-aid tastes great, and I'm sorry for you.

@bettieblu: "On Topic, this thing does look good, James Bond good."

Funniest (and dumbest) line of the month. Thanks, Bettie.

The thing looks really awful. It's your typical Microsoft product. Lacking any taste whatsoever.

The Zune is doomed to failure.

@robertsjoe - You and milegalos should get a point counterpoint blog...It'd be the busiest site on the blogosphere! The 2 of you are so much alike that its hilarious! Thanks for the entertainment!

--tayme

I'm enthused about this (though more lines of rez would have been nice).

I have two questions: 1, will it have A2DP Bluetooth support, and 2. do we have any clearer picture of what an international launch of the Zune Marketplace might look like?

I bought my wife an 80GB Zune for her birthday last year, and we were both really impressed with it as a device.  Liked the software, too.

Too bad we have to keep buying music for the thing off iTunes...

A few things have become clearer from a MS interview at Arstechnica:

- no non-game apps.  None.

- IE6 !!!

- no email

arstechnica.com/.../inside-the-zune-hd-a-new-hope-for-microsoft.ars

I'm sure it will be a competent music player, just like Opera is a competent web browser...  and we all know how much Thurrott loves Opera.

"I'm sure it will be a competent music player, just like Opera is a competent web browser...  and we all know how much Thurrott loves Opera."

I'm sure the iCabalists will stop making idiotic remarks, just like Rush Limbaugh will stop making idiotic remarks... and we all know how soon that will happen.

so nasty, shark, who peed in your purse?

Oh, and before I forget, I own and love the iPod Touch and the iPod Shuffle. So, the "anything but Apple" argument won't work with me. Sorry.

Microsoft should not have a separate app store for the Zune and WM. That's just stupid. Anyway, I will wait for more details to come out before I pass a judgment. It looks good. That's all.

I adore my 1st edition iPod Touch but it has been dropped too many times and is falling apart.  I would consider buying the zune if it has:

   Easy podcast integration    

   Wifi

   A good browser

   Great mapping

   A good email client that works with Google

   Activesync

   Wireless syncing

   Good built in apps

   Third party apps like Facebook, Twitter, and Pandora

   Location based services

   H.264 video

   Divx video would awesome

Divx video and the FM/HD radio would be the cool delta.

Microsoft could do all of this stuff but for some reason I suspect they will screw up by not integrating with Google or Yahoo well.

On an operational note, why does MS still have so many mobile platforms?  Will the Zune software continue to be seperate from Windows Mobile?  Will MS continue to have multiple teams creating similar software?  Is Windows Mobile 7 the future and will this Zune CE software get thrown away in a year or two?

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分类: 手持设备 传闻指出 ZuneHD 将于九月五日推出，但距离 九月五日还有一段时间，所以 ZuneHD 真的要推出吗？还是我们要多等一下。毕竟我们一个没有 Zune 的社会，美国九月五旦推出 ZuneHD

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