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"And how weird is it that this blog post does not address the biggest Windows 7 Starter limitation, the inability to change the wallpaper or welcome screen."

What are you talking about?  That post does address it.  It states on one of the bullet points that you can't change those things.  The blogger also states that his inability to change those things and personalize it is the main reason he opts to go for one of the higher SKUs.

Sorry, I meant more along the lines of the rationale for that. Microsoft has said repeatedly that people love to customize their PCs. Why are they restricting such a petty thing in Starter?

Has Microsoft confirmed whether the wallpaper going to be the one with fish on dirty water? For that matter, is it possible to turn the wallpaper OFF (to blank colored background)?

I think that the crippled Starter Edition is pretty useless...which is I guess why it is supposed to be intended for developing countries and low end uses. Won't be too widely seen in the wild in the US or EU, I would guess.

--tayme

tayme

Actually, Windows 7 Home Basic is the version for emerging nations.

Windows 7 Starter (that we're discussing here) is for minimal PCs such as low-end netbooks.

Of course, you can always upgrade a Windows 7 Starter netbook to a more sophisticated version of Windows 7 if you want to get more features in exchange for a higher price. Microsoft lets the user make the choice based on their specific needs.

@mikegalos - Thanks for the correction. In that case, Starter is really worthless, then...in my opinion. If the price point is like $19.99 retail, then maybe some people will buy it. Of course, I don't think that Starter will be available Retail...but I am sure that Amazon, New Egg, and others will sell it to "system builders". Since most netbooks will come preloaded with a higher edition of 7, I don't see why Microsoft would waste their time here. I know, I know...choice is good...but some choices are just plain stupid.

--tayme

tayme

The reason is simple. When you're selling a computer that retails for $200 or so, every dollar counts.

The OEMs wanted a choice that could keep the price low. Their customers (the ones really using a small netbook for netbookish things like web browsing and such) wanted prices kept low. Remember that netbooks are generally a second or third computer and convenience and price often trump features in this market.

Maybe many will upgrade.

Maybe most will upgrade.

Maybe almost all will upgrade.

Great! That's their choice.

But it is a certainty that some won't because they want the cheapest real Windows experience with all the compatibility they need and all the basic features they want for a small netbook.

This version gives them the choice they want and I doubt they'd agree that their choice is "just plain stupid". And I suspect you don't want to be the one to tell them that you think it is and that you'd be happier if they couldn't get what they wanted because it offends you in some way.

Paul

You probably want to change the table to reflect the change in the app limit from 3 to unlimited.

I agree with you Mike.  I don't see how it would be fair to sell Home Premium to a manufacturer for a cheaper price because they're putting it on a "netbook" as opposed to another manufacturer that's putting it on a "notebook."  There has to be some things that differentiates the cheaper price tag.

Like I  have always said...what is best for some is not best for everyone...and this is yet another case of that. I think it is a stupid choice  for me...but like you guys said, not so stupid for others. I want the FULL Windows experience, others may not. I just hope that Joe Netbook Buyer realizes what he or she is getting if the netbook that they are buying comes with Starter. Remember how many netbooks were being returned because people didn't realize that they were running Linux instead of Windows. Hopefully this works for Microsoft...I still wonder, though.

--tayme

While I can see the point about the wallpaper, I'm wondering if it would actually bother me at all. Buying low end would make me realize that it would have limitations, and I would appreciate anything else it does, above the needs of my netbook functions. In this case, perhaps some one from MS was thinking like me. However, as tayme will point out in a few more posts, if you can fix it easily, then why not do it?

A dumbed down OS for dumbed down hardware -  a marriage made in heaven - what mass of people will bother upgrading and why? OEMs will offer higher SKUs when the costs for higher value components are able to compete at an acceptable level in the consumer netbook market (or alternatively at a premium netbook pricepoint)

@tayme

"Like I  have always said...what is best for some is not best for everyone...and this is yet another case of that. I think it is a stupid choice  for me...but like you guys said, not so stupid for others. I want the FULL Windows experience, others may not."

I feel the same way.

But still, even if someone didn't want the full experience, why restrict not being able to change the wallpaper? Seems pointless to me. Having the ability to change wallpaper isn't a feature in my book.

This is like Stockholm syndrome. And I'm still impressed with that table!

Cue the music for Mike.....

tayme

"Remember how many netbooks were being returned because people didn't realize that they were running Linux instead of Windows"

More likely it was "I asked the salesman what Linux was and he said it was just like Windows. He lied."

chuckb84

"This is like Stockholm syndrome"

Feel free to leave anytime.

ham,

"Having the ability to change wallpaper isn't a feature in my book."

It seems like a feature you consider necessary. And you don't think it's a feature? Odd.

I have to agree with the commentary provided by tayme and others about Windows 7 Starter edition. These arbitrary restrictions within the OS will end up pushing folks to versions of Linux or possible future netbook operating systems such as the rumored Android. You could keep the customization feature within Windows 7 Starter edition and it shouldn't really add to the cost. When you can do the same features in almost any flavor of Linux, any customer is going to ask, "Why can't I do this?"

OS design also has to follow common sense. Even a Hackintosh version of OS-X for netbooks would be able to do some of these customization features. To arbitrarily turn them off without letting the user decide really doesn't make a lot of sense.

However, this is where I have to attack one of tayme's arguments.

"I just hope that Joe Netbook Buyer realizes what he or she is getting if the netbook that they are buying comes with Starter."

Considering the hundred's of review sites, wiki's, and the sheer number of information on the various SKU's from Microsoft, it ultimate falls to the user to do some research and ask the important questions. Unfortunately, most folks don't.  Ultimately, it becomes the individuals fault for not reaching an understand of the product that you are buying. Its the same as buying an AGP graphics card when your board supports PCI-Express 2.0. If you don't know what Starter is going to do, should you really be trying to buy an OS in the first place?

Consumers always try to pass the buck for being ignorant or doing their part. You gotta know what you need or want, before you walk in the store. If you don't then you ultimately have no one else to blame.

@mikegalos - If you seriously think that not allowing a user the ability to change the wallpaper is a good idea then you have truly had way too much of the Redmond Punch.  One of the first things most Joe/Joanne Users do is personalize the desktop; most often with a picture of Johnny/Jill User. Heck, even at several highly regulated companies that lock down the PCs that they deploy allow that.

--tayme

@sub - I agree it is the buyer's duty to research and know what they are buying. But, you are talking about blogs and wikis and review sites that geeks like us look at all the time. Joe and Joanne don't really know much about those, so Microsoft, the PC makers, and friends like us need to be out there making these "features" known.

--tayme

@tayme:

You'll be glad to know that most distributors (at least in Canada) barely stock Windows Vista Home Basic.  Starter doesn't exist on SKU lists here either.  OEM System Builder copies of Vista Home Basic just aren't in demand.  I could confidently say that's going to be true of Windows 7 Starter.  The thing is, in the channel, System Builders don't get extremely low-end hardware like major OEM's do.  OEM's will make special contracts with Intel et al to receive the cheapest parts possible for some of these low end machines.  Intel will carry old obsolete processors SPECIFICALLY for the major OEM's even after discontinuing channel sales.  When you look at retail costs of processors, it's a laugh.  Sometimes you'll see prices of the "low-end" Pentium dual-core processors like the E5200 and E5300, and they're the same price!  Meanwhile, major OEM's will be buying tray versions of the E5200 for much less than retail, and still less than what they would pay for the E5300.

Let me put it another way:  the Core 2 Duo E4000 desktop and T6000 mobile chips don't even exist as retail parts, so System Builders can't build sub-$800 notebooks with half-decent processors in them.  As far as whitebook notebooks go, the barebone shells that are available are extremely up-to-date with Intel mobile 4-series chispets, but the obsolete 965 and 945 chipset boards aren't available anymore even though some OEM's are still shipping them.  AMD whitebooks?  Forget about it!  I have to compete on value for the dollar.  Comparing apples to apples (not those Apple's....er well maybe....) I can provide a better value for the dollar.  I don't deal in ultra-cheap systems though, until maybe there's an Ion-equipped whitebook system that I can offer with at least some level of customization and a decent amount of performance compared to existing systems.  I'd actually prefer to wait until Intel gets in gear and offers a dual-core netbook version of the Atom.  I'm already building Ion nettops with the dual-core Atom coupled with the NVIDIA Ion platform, and I can say that they're certainly good, but I'm not impressed with the N-series chips that sell in existing netbooks.  It's a shame that's all there is right now though.  The Atom 330 has been out for more than 6 months.

Anyway....the point is, this is major OEM's are asking for this, not System Builders.  The channel doesn't get a big enough say to ask for things like Starter, but at the same time, you should be thankful we don't.

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@tayme:

All that said, I would say that if you look at using Starter on small devices like keyboard-less MID's (something like an OQO but in the performance that you'd get in a $500 device), Starter still has a big advantage over Linux distributions like Moblin (which I still like over most other netbook versions) in that it still has access to a rich ecosystem of Windows software that all of the "Premium" versions run (hardware performance permitting of course), and I would certainly take Starter over XP Home Edition on such a device.

Paul,

Looking at your comparison chart I can't tell what the difference is between "Windows Basic UI" and "Windows Standard UI".

Is there a place on your site that explains this?

To put it in the words of the actual Windows Team's blog from almost four months ago for those of you who STILL actually think you'll be running into Windows 7 Starter (In other words, for people trying to make an issue out of something they'll likely never see) windowsteamblog.com/.../a-closer-look-at-the-windows-7-skus.aspx :

------------------

So…Windows 7 will be offered primarily in 2 editions: Windows 7 Home Premium and Windows 7 Professional.

...

Our marketing efforts, when they begin for Windows 7, will reflect an emphasis on Windows 7 Home Premium and Windows 7 Professional. With the continued hardware advancements made since the launch of Windows Vista, we think 80% of end users will choose one of these two SKUs.

Windows 7 Home Premium: Recommended Choice for Consumers

Windows 7 Professional: Recommended Choice for Enthusiasts and Small Business Customers

Essentially, when Windows 7 hits store shelves consumers will see Windows 7 Home Premium and Windows 7 Professional as the choice they will need to make.

...

Windows 7 Starter: Something that our OEM partners asked for is to have an offering for folks that will do very limited things with their PCs and for PCs with limited hardware capabilities. [...] This is something that will be offered only through OEM partners.

Or, putting it simply...

If you're not planning on only doing very limited things on limited hardware, Windows 7 Starter will be the wrong edition for your needs. Odds are that's pretty much everybody here for at least your first and second computers.

.

This is, frankly, as silly a discussion as listening to a sports car fan discussion on what's the best minimal point to point transportation choice and having them get into a debate about whether carbon brakes should be an option.

If you want a car analogy how about this. You buy a car and depending on how fast you plan on driving, determines how many cylinders work. Two if you are a 92 year old guy who only drives to the clubhouse to play canasta with his old golf buddies. Four if you are a middle aged boring guy. Six for those entering their mid-life crisis and finally eight for the teenager wanting to impress his girlfriend. One more feature. If you are going to drive on rough roads you can upgrade to the model that comes with shock absorbers. This whole approach from MS is ludicrous. Give these people something better to do. They have gone insane,

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@mike

"It seems like a feature you consider necessary. And you don't think it's a feature? Odd."

Nope. I said I don't consider it a feature, so how would it be a feature I consider necessary? Hmm... Unless you just assume anything and everything the OS can do is a 'feature'. Right now I'm using the feature from windows called the keyboard listener. It lets me type. It's a feature.

Almost anyone who uses a desktop OS, whether it be Windows, OSX, or some version of linux, assumes they can change the wallpaper. Its like if you buy a book, you assume there will be words written on the pages, when there is no words there, you think somethings wrong. [bad example]. If I tried to use this version of windows and couldn't change the wallpaper, I would assume something is wrong.

"This is, frankly, as silly a discussion as listening to a sports car fan discussion on what's the best minimal point to point transportation choice and having them get into a debate about whether carbon brakes should be an option."

Why is it silly? Even though almost everyone here will probably never use this version of windows, does that mean we can't discuss what we don't like about it?

It just seems weird that Microsoft would lift the '3 app limit' yet you still can't change the wallpaper. I guess this version won't be used for such limited purposes after all...

kent

It's more like a group of Ferrari fans asking whether a "real" Ferrari (12 cyl) is necessary for their 80 year old mother to use to run out for groceries or could she get by on a 360. But never even considering that perhaps a Ferrari wasn't the best choice.

.It's the amazing arrogance in assuming that what's best for people who hang out on technology boards is ideal for everyone else. (Of course, it's worse when you get into the LInux fanbase who think everyone's find with a 20 step, case sensitive script shell process to change a setting)

hamilton

Of course you can discuss it but it is as silly as asking a graphic artist which power conditioner architecture is best for a highly redundant geodistributed set of web farms. After all, they use computers every day so their opinion must be relevant on any computer question.

If this edition isn't what you plan on ever using, why does it matter what you like or dislike about the feature set?

What matters is what the people who actually will use Starter think of the feature set. And they don't hang out here that much.

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@mikegalos: "Of course, you can always upgrade a Windows 7 Starter netbook to a more sophisticated version of Windows 7 if you want to get more features in exchange for a higher price."

That's what's known as the Microsoft tax.

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"If this edition isn't what you plan on ever using, why does it matter what you like or dislike about the feature set? "

You are right. It doesn't matter. I never said it did. Hence the big bold title "Leave a Comment". Your point?

"What matters is what the people who actually will use Starter think of the feature set. And they don't hang out here that much."

I guess Paul made the mistake of putting news that MS was lifting the 3 app limit and letting us comment on it.  Again... Your point?

I don't know what you are trying to say (lots of words to say nothing.. I'm guessing your a democrat?) but next time I comment I'll really try to make it 'matter'.

Anyways guys its late. I need to go bing it and go to bed.

Apple and Google are the most innovative companies.

bwnt.businessweek.com/.../index.asp

So true.

Do we know for sure that they don't let you change the wallpaper?

Anyway, if the restriction is there, Microsoft better make sure people know about it. They will also need to let people know that this doesn't have Aero. Otherwise, they're looking at another set of embarrassing lawsuits.

In any case, who cares about Windows Starter?

Ahh, ok. The Windows team has confirmed it:

Windows 7 Starter will not include:

"•Personalization features for changing desktop backgrounds, window colors, or sound schemes. "

Interesting, but then again, who cares?

It's product/price point differentiation pure and simple.  The message to the consumer, simply put, is "you want a dirt cheap, bare bones pc, part of the price is you'll just have to live with whatever branding the manufacturer  chooses to put in the desktop background and startup screens."  It's a price you pay for cheap - cheap always costs something.

Frankly, I expect this feature will be associated in people's minds more the uber-cheap netbook product category than with the OS version per se.  As in, "Yeah, that Acer is only $249.  Of course you can't run Aero, or do stuff like change the desktop background, but, hey, $249."

My guess is it'll be a non-issue.

@shark - You ask who cares. How about the person who goes to Best Buy to purchase a netbook, the kid working the computer area tells them it runs Windows, they get it home and can't even change the wallpaper. Do you agree with mikegalos and sub that Microsoft, the OEM, and Best Buy have no responsibility in informing them of the limitations? Do you agree that they should have read the wikis and blogs to find this out? Chances are that they barely know what a blog is, let alone a wiki. Maybe they can find it somewhere between Farm Town and Mafia Wars.

"Do you agree with mikegalos and sub that Microsoft, the OEM, and Best Buy have no responsibility in informing them of the limitations?"

No. Like I said, it would be stupid for Microsoft not to inform the consumer. The company has already been burnt once before. Microsoft should have created a version of its mobile OS for these cheap netbooks and called it Windows Netbook or something.

@tayme:  Best Buy offers a 30-day satisfaction guarantee....at least, they do here

@Waethorn - That does not relieve them of the responsibility to inform customers of what they are buying. Like I have said, the buyer does have a responsibility, as well...but to say that they should look it up in wikis, blogs, and the like is wrong. Computers are now appliances like washers, dryers, dishwashers, TV's. A person may look at Consumer Reports or something, but that is about as far as it will go. Microsoft should do all they can to avoid the "Vista Ready" fiasco with 7. They won't be able to blame Intel this time.

--tayme

--tayme

I only changed the background wallpaper on PC's that have multiple accounts for my family, which is only two of them. this was done to allow them to know that they were in the correct or wrong account. When they all learned to do it themselves, I no longer changed them. On one account PC's, I don't bother changing the wallpaper since I really don't care as an open window is usually covering it. If an app is not open, the screensaver would be on soon. I have used the default background and schemes for all of these  single account PC's. Maybe I'm just different. o me, it would be like buying a hammer with a blue handle. It's just a tool and I only need it to function as designed. [But yes, I did buy a NINJA case with blue lights and fans. Black or beige box is boring and pretty much the same price.]

"to say that they should look it up in wikis, blogs, and the like is wrong"

That's why Microsoft offers partners and resellers vast quantities of marketing swag and sales training.  Whether or not a reseller chooses to leverage that marketing collateral is not Microsoft's responsibility.

Ham

" (lots of words to say nothing.. I'm guessing your a democrat?)"

(telling people that you have a moral right to make their decisions for them.. I'm guessing you're a Limbaugh-faction Republican or an Apple fan)

tayme

"Do you agree with mikegalos and sub that Microsoft, the OEM, and Best Buy have no responsibility in informing them of the limitations?"

Where did I say they Microsoft wouldn't inform the consumer? Aren't you one of the people complaining about all the informational text on Microsoft packaging that informs the consumer? Or are you suggesting that Apple be sued for not informing the user about limitation on their sparse, pretty and non-informative packaging?

Webguy

" It's a price you pay for cheap - cheap always costs something."

Like having to use at&t with your iPhone and having an at&t carrier logo in the upper left corner of the screen in exchange for being too cheap to buy an unlocked, unsubsidized version?

@mikegalos - No, I don't believe that I have ever complained about the packaging that Microsoft or Apple uses. You must have imagined that at some point. All I am saying is that MS, OEMs, and Retailers need to be sure to make known all of the limitations AND all of the advantages of each and every edition of Windows 7 in order to avoid another "Vista Ready" situation. I like Windows 7....even more than I like Vista...I want to see it succeed and not fall into negative perception by any means.

By the way...you never did answer this - Do you think that not allowing a user the ability to do something as simple as changing the wallpaper is a good idea - regardless of the version or edition of an OS? If so, you must also think that Apple allowing only apps that they have approved for the iPhone to only be sold through their store is OK. After all, they have informed the consumers and developers that this is the case. Or, is this yet another area of double standard for you?

Enjoy your weekend! I plan too!

--tayme

tayme

You seem to be missing a key parallel.

If a user buys an ultra low price netbook they accept they're not getting some options in exchange for the ultra low price. If they have the choice of buying upgrades that add the options they want that's a good thing and gives them the choice to buy what they need.

Where's the Apple option for iPhone where I can buy my iPhone from Apple/at&t and then, later pay a little extra to not have to buy all my apps from Apple?

Where's the at&t option for iPhone where I can buy my iPhone from Apple/at&t and then, later pay a little extra to not have to use at&t as my carrier? (or even to not have an at&t logo in the upper left corner of the screen)

(I keep hinting at the obvious reason for fixed wallpaper on an OEM-only product...)

Another hint

Stop thinking of low-end netbooks as minimal computers.

Think of low-end netbooks as wireless Internet devices with keyboards and bigger screens.

And those need an always-on, mobile Internet connection to be valuable.

The whole point here is that some yahoos at MS sat around in a bunch of meetings developing a strategy on how to increase revenues from the sale of Windows. This is what they came up with. They have all the data of who bought what version of Vista, and who upgraded to what and why. They analyzed all this and came up with this strategy. It has nothing to do with what we want or should get or even what makes sense. The analysis determined that this plan maximized profits. Bottom line.  Or maybe they are just stupid.

kent

" some yahoos at MS "

No. The Microsoft/Yahoo! merger didn't go through.

And speaking of yahoos (those who've read Swift will get the reference), apparently you can lead a horse to water...

yahoo: an uncultivated or boorish person; lout; philistine; yokel.

The search engine called Yahoo or the company did not invent the word.

"If a user buys an ultra low price netbook they accept they're not getting some options in exchange for the ultra low price. If they have the choice of buying upgrades that add the options they want that's a good thing and gives them the choice to buy what they need."

This really goes beyond the 3 app limit in the Starter version. With the exception of "Ultimate" all versions of Windows are crippled to some degree. In actuality even Ultimate is crippled by the fact that it never delivered everything promised(animated desktop wallpaper). Another case of Marketing talking out of turn, and asking the programmers later if it can be done. A common theme in Dilbert.

@kent909: I'm pretty sure you're another one of those anti-MS Mac users.

kent909

You might wish to avoid comments where you're missing the expertise.

Note "And speaking of yahoos (those who've read Swift will get the reference), apparently you can lead a horse to water..."

You might want to look up yahoos in Swift's Gulliver's Travels.

(Apparently the joke was too hip for the room - or at least part of the room)

kent

Again, you might want to avoid talking about things where you only demonstrating your ignorance and similarity to a certain poiny haired boss.

"[Vista Ultimate] never delivered [...] animated desktop wallpaper"

DreamScenes (the animated desktop wallpaper in Windows Vista Ultimate) was delivered to Vista Ultimate users in beta shortly after the OS shipped and came out of beta and was release to users in September 2007. Additional scenes were released as Ultimate Extras in April 2008 and September 2008.

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In the true spirit of America things have turned from commenting on a policy  to making personal attacks against the person posting. I was a PC user for 22 years and now I use a Mac. Not because I don't like Windows, I just like the Mac. I will admit I was repeating something I "heard" regarding animated wallpaper. It is not so important, that I saw the need to confirm it. My bad. I think the following decisions by Apple were also stupid. Using only AT&T as a provider for the iPhone. Putting an inferior camera in the iPhone. Being lame in it's censorship of the App store. Being unfair to developers in restricting their ability to share development knowledge. Apple is not perfect or without it's own bouts of stupidity. So either it was inferred or from past postings that Shark47 was aware that I use a Mac, however no where in this post did I ever make a comparison that OS X was better than Windows because of the limitations MS puts on the product. So Shark47, if I choose to make a statement that there is something wrong with you if you use Windows or admire Gates or Ballmer too much, then feel free to make post like you did. Until then "move away from the keyboard".

kent909

In the true spirit of the times I notice you chose "my bad" rather than "I'm sorry". The mark of the non-apology apology that has replaced taking actual responsibility for parroting things that aren't true. Perhaps in the future you should consider that if something is worth repeating it should be worth confirming first. Tat you feel there are a class of items worth espousing as true with no concern for their actual truth is telling and perhaps worth more of an apology than "my bad".

" mikegalos@msn.com  said:

Webguy

" It's a price you pay for cheap - cheap always costs something."

Like having to use at&t with your iPhone and having an at&t carrier logo in the upper left corner of the screen in exchange for being too cheap to buy an unlocked, unsubsidized version?"

Huh?  I thought we were talking about Windows.

Mike,

I feel no compulsion to apologize for making an incorrect statement about a feature in Windows, an inanimate object. No pun intended. In the future you can be assured that if I make a false statement about you or another person, then I will certainly apologize. I will not apologize to an operating system.

@WebGuy - You'll notice that for a Windows Evangelist, mikegalos is awfully obsessed with Apple...kinda weird, really. Maybe that is what headquarters told him he had to do.

--tayme

@kent - mikegalos loves to point out other people's errors at the same time that he refuses to admit his own. That is one of his greatnesses in his own mind!

--tayme

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