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Presumably the compass requires a hardware compass though right?

Yes - the 3GS has a built in magnetometer

without it the 3G cant hope to tell which way its facing

Ohh weee.... we get to Reality Check another Reality Check.

"First, existing iPhone 3G customers cannot upgrade to a 3G S for $199 or $299. Those prices are for new customers only. You will pay $599 or $699. Yeah, really. "

This is not true.  Please look at AT&Ts website. The 199 & and 299 are for BOTH new customers as well as people eligible for upgrades. If you are a current customer and not eligible for upgrade pricing then it is 499 and 599. If you want a no-commitment option it is the 599 and 699 pricing.  One can certainly argue that the 499 and 599 upgrading pricing is crap, but to say it is either 199 or 599 is flat out wrong.

"MMS, another feature of iPhone Software Update 3.0, will also not be made available in the US."

This is flat out wrong. It will not be available in the U.S at launch. ATT will add it later this year. This was clearly stated in the keynote.

"Amazingly, several software features Apple showed off yesterday will arbitrarily not be made available to other iPhone users. These include Voice Control and Compass. What??"

My understanding is that the compass is dependent on a hardware upgrade. If so that isn't really arbitrary.

The upside is you are right about not being able to get the 3G iPhone in white and that  at the present AT&T isn't supporting tethering.

1. The compass app requires, as mdsharpe said, a hardware compass. Duh! It might also be a surprise to you that the video camera is also not available to old iPhone customers.

2. MMS *will* be made available on AT&T "later this summer" according to the Keynote. Duh!

You're right about Voice Control though not being available to old iPhone users, well done!

And as a note tethering will likely be an addition to the existing monthly plans. At least that's what it's like in the UK on O2 where it will cost an extra 15 or 30 pounds depending on data required/used.

^&%@#&@% AT&T.

Tethering was the one tipping-point feature that might have made me consider finally getting an iPhone, since all my other early objections have now pretty much been met.

Oh well.

Paul, please add this to you reality check:

1. They claim Safari is the most used mobile browser. Wrong, it's just because their sources do not recognize Opera Mobile.

When Opera's browsers are added to the satistics, it looks like this: www.informationweek.com/.../showArticle.jhtml

2. They highligt the lots of apps in the AppStore and compare the numbers against Blackberry, Android and Pre.

It seems that they are afraid of Windows Mobile, which has a lot more apps that Android and the other newcomers.

Also, it's funny how they compare their AppStore to the Pre Marketplace, which has launched only three days ago. That shows that they are REALLY afraid of the Palm Pre!

One item that hasn't been mentioned is what Voice Control functions will and will not work with a bluetooth headset.

"It seems that they are afraid of Windows Mobile"

BWAHAHAHAHA

Thanks. I needed that laugh this morning.

But wait, there's more...

"Also, it's funny how they compare their AppStore to the Pre Marketplace, which has launched only three days ago. That shows that they are REALLY afraid of the Palm Pre!"

So by your reckoning:

A) Apple is afraid of Windows Mobile because they didn't mention it, and

B) Apple is afraid of the Palm Pre because they did mention it.

Nice logic there, chucky.

It's odd how battery life only seems to be better if you are not using the 3G radio. Odd. It's as if any improvements made are offset by a more power hungry radio.

"Thanks. I needed that laugh this morning."

What's so funny? If they are not why not include WM in terms of # of apps in the AppStore?

Here's an interesting article about how the iPhone is being priced in the UK. Pay special attention to the cost of tethering (£30 extra per month for 10GB). Outrageous.

www.reghardware.co.uk/.../iphone_3gs_o2

@ maati

Your point number 2 is not related to what Apple is talking about. They were comparing stores embedded in devices. They can't make a comparison to Windows Mobile because no such store exists.

For some reason I think that if Apple hadn't mentioned the Pre Marketplace you would be claiming that is an indication of Apple being afraid of Palm. My guess is that is the narrative that you want to believe.

As for Palm you can dismiss that it only has 18 apps due to it being a few days old and that is a good point, but the iPhone App store launched with over 200. That of course doesn't mean the Pre Marketplace is a failure. There may be a few hundred apps ready to go that Palm has not posted. It could also mean that developer support isn't there. The fact is that we just don't know.

lotsa

Yeah. I'm sure they left Windows Mobile off the chart because Apple didn't want to say bad things about Microsoft.

Of course they didn't want to show the app count for Windows Mobile. Their keynote charts are always massaged to show bizarre things that Apple wants you to infer when the real data wouldn't make their point. Yesterday's two biggies were the "OS X Growth" chart that included iPhone but was presented as Mac OS X and all the the iPhone charts that mysteriously left out Windows Mobile. (Though they've been doing that little dance for years now)

It like the usual Apple Sales chart that talks only about  retail sales, on college campuses, at specific classes of universities and only in the US and the presents it as though it were general growth data.

Anyone that settles for AT&T waiting until the end of summer to implement MMS when it is available on the most basic of phone from AT&T right now needs their head examined. I don't know why there is a delay and quite frankly I don't care, but if I am paying for a premium service and using a 'premium' piece of equipment such as an iPhone (which I am) then I should get the most basic of features available on a three year old Motorola flip phone on this expensive hardware.

I have had both incarnations of the iPhone thus far but the 3GS really doesn't interest me. I was far more interested in what was going on with Snow Leopard vs. all the iPhone app demos during the keynote yesterday. Don't get me wrong, I think the iPhone is a brilliant piece of technology and I love my 3G dearly (though I loved the form factor of my original iPhone better) but I don't think the 3GS gives me enough of a reason to upgrade at any price and quite frankly the service from AT&T dropping all over the place (and their delayed MMS and thus far lack of tethering) is seriously making me consider other phones with other carriers.

Maati,

Is that really what it means?  Based on what?

Maybe they think WinMo is such a joke, they only listed what they think or their current true competitors, or potential comptetitors as the Palm Pre and other environments mature.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

"Yesterday's two biggies were the "OS X Growth" chart that included iPhone but was presented as Mac OS X and all the the iPhone charts that mysteriously left out Windows Mobile."

They didn't present the chart as Mac OS X. It was clearly, as in explained, as a chart that included all OS X based products. They specifically called out that it included Macs, iPhones and iPod Touch.

They didn't "mysteriously" leave out Windows Mobiles. The comparison was of devices that have applications stores built in. As far as I know this doesn't exist for Windows Mobile.

@ModerDislocation,

It's typical Paul and MikeGalos, stating this crap as fact, when it clearly isn't and then never acknowledging it.

My early upgrade prices are 399 and 499, your post is wrong.

I doubt AT&T will add a more expensive data plan, they just need to roll out their new towers to support MMS and tethering (www.betanews.com/.../1243446044)... Waiting is a better alternative then launching it now and have the network be ungodly slow, so you really have no idea what you are talking about, you shouldn't post your speculation as fact, that's why so many people think you're blog and site are a joke Paul.

The Voice Control and Compass are hardware issues, the voice control needs the faster processing power of the 3GS and the compass isn't possible without the compass hardware.

And putting those 2 points you have as bullets makes it look like you're getting it directly from Apple, which you are not, I can't believe you would do that, it makes you look like an idiot and is very childish.

Actually, to the Windows Mobile comments, I would add this. Apple had a chart listing the number of apps per phone. Conspicuously missing, of course, was Windows Mobile, which has over 20,000 apps and would thus be number two in that market.

@Mike - Apple made no bones about the fact they were counting iPhone OS in the OS X user base numbers. They said right there in the keynote in English. It's not like they were trying to obfuscate that fact.

Hey,

About those WinMo you guys are complaining aren't mentioned.

Here's a fart app.

www.1800pocketpc.com/.../fart-machine-10-ifart-for-windows-mobile.html

Here's a tip calculator.

www.freewarepocketpc.net/ppc-download-simple-tip-calculator-v1-0.html

So, now, based on MikeGalos logic, anytime someone mentions WinMo apps, (which based on Paul's comment is 30,000 less apps than iPhone), we should all just say, "How many of them are tip calculators and fart apps", or some other idiotic hair-brained meaningless remark.

But if that happened...everyone would be an Apple loving Windows Basher....just for pointing out his hypocrisy.

Just to be clear on the growth chart that was presented and that has been misrepresented by various people. Here is that actual text of what was said. If don't believe me go look at the video. The graph is introduce 2:46.

The growth is clearly attributed to the iPhone and iPod touch and there is no claim that this is Mac OS X growth.

"This is a chart of OS X users in the first five full years of Mac OS X, 2002 to 2007. Great steady growth, adoption. Mac OS X. This isn't shipments but actual active users. Up to 25 million, but something incredible has happened over the last two years. To show you that I need to change the scale of the graph a bit. (Keynote: magic move) And this is what happened with iPhone, with iPod Touch we have tripled the number of active users of OS X across these products."

This kind of hurts my argument but I still stand by my points, I just found the last paragraph here a to be a very good point: www.neowin.net/.../att-lagging-behind-in-iphone-30-feature-deployment

"Because of carrier exclusivity agreements it's the end user who gets harmed because they do not have the option of using a phone of their choosing on the network they prefer. All operators are guilty of exclusivity agreements, AT&T with the iPhone, Verizon with the Blackberry Storm, Sprint with the Pre and T-Mobile with the G1. Hopefully one day soon these contracts will be outlawed in favor of consumer choice, but until then, everyone must play the cards that have been dealt."

panache and Moder

Sorry guys, you're just buying whatever excuse for deception they chose.

Where on those charts does it say what you claim?

Where's that fine print disclaimer that they pretend in their ads that Apple doesn't have to provide?

Of course, maybe you have a link to the slides saying:

Disclaimer: Despite this being the OS X Snow Leopard section of the talk for this chart and this chart only we're including iPhone OS and iPod even though we never refer to them using OS X any more and call their OS "iPhone OS 3.0" on our website, documentation and advertising. Please note that despite our counting most of these devices as OS X despite them running iPhone OS 3.0, it should not be inferred that these deviced can run OS X 10.7 applications or that iPhone OS 3.0 applications can run on an OS X 10.7 based Macintosh computer..

Disclaimer: Despite talking about App Availability for this chart and this chart only we're only going to show apps available on a "burned into the image" app stores provided by the hardware vendor and explicity not counting other channels including carrier stores, 3rd party stores and vendor direct sales.

@Pthurrott

By your own reckoning the best served Windows mobile phone only has 2000 odd apps, so the other 18000 don't count or do they now?

MikeGalos,

Even though it is verbally spoken, and the quote has been provided to you, it's invalid because you don't see any fine print?!

Give me a break.

@Mike "Where on those charts does it say what you claim?"

So when Schiller said:

"with iPhone, with iPod Touch we have tripled the number of active users of OS X across these products."

I think he meant that he was A. Including them in the number and B. that it was with them that they tripled the growth. Why do I think that? Because that is exactly what he said.

It is pretty clear you have not watched the video and on some other source for what is in the keynote. The talk about OS X was not in the Snow Leopard part of talk.

And with the App part, again, they clearly said what they were comparing and it wasn't overall App availability.  "We looked in all the stores this weekend" pretty much means they were looking at app stores.

So, there you go. Both claims backed up.

@Mike - Give it up man, now you are just making yourself look (more) foolish. They have always made it clear that iPhone OS is based on OS X. They have never hidden that fact from DEVELOPERS, the focus of this conference.

Why is MS hiding the fact that Win 7 is just NT 6.1. Same effing difference.

panache,

I went to the Apple site and looked in vain on the various iPhone OS 3.0 pages and iPod Touch pages and iPhone 3G and iPhone 3G[S] pages and the only reference to OS X was the minimum requirements on a computer for syncing with an iPod Touch or iPhone. By that measure, should I assume they run Windows Vista which is given the same reference?

Odd, it's as though on their web pages and all other documentation and marketing iPhone OS 3.0 is not the same as OS X 10.something and only appears counted as OS X  that one time to make it appear as though OS X isn't stuck at <5% of the market with no growth.

Perhaps you can give us a link to the Apple's OS X or iPhone OS 3.0 pages where the two are counted together.

So pretty much every comment Paul made was inaccurate? lol.

Compass is a hardware feature.

Tethering WILL be available in the US

MMS WILL be available in the US

It's impossible to say that Voice Control is a software only feature.  To do the on the fly speech conversions may require a beefier processor or more RAM.  Nobody knows.

danieldecker

Why don't you show us the Apple web page where it shows that iPhone OS 3.0 is Mac OS X 10.something.

For that matter, since it's so clearly show (and I must have just missed it), point us to the OS X page where it talks about iPhone OS 3.0 being Mac OS X version 10. (wait a minute, is it 10.5? 10.6? 10.7? What release number after that is it? Gee. You'd think that'd be obvious. I must have missed that slide saying which version and build of Mac OS X is the same as iPhone OS 3.0. Can you point me to that web page? )

MikeGalos,

This is where your beard starts to interfere with your brain.

Read the other posts.  Links and information has already been provided to you as to how Apple made their 75 million claim.

It is you who just doesn't like what they said, so you pretend it wasn't said and doesn't count.

Give us all a break.  Your games are old and tiresome.

Panache

Actually, you're the one claiming that iPhone OS 3.0 and Mac OS X 10.x.xxxx are the same despite Apple never refering to them that way on their website or documentation.

Perhaps you can tell everybody how to run iLife or iWork on their iPhone or iPod Touch? After all they're just OS X 10.x applications, they should run. Right?

How about all those new features. Does iPhone OS 3.0 include Grand Central Dispatch? How about read-only ZFS support? Do I get that with an iPod Touch? Do I only get it if I upgrade my iPod Touch to iPhone OS 3.0?

Clear it all up for us.

@Mike quit picking nits. You are coming across as childish and petty. You can't accept a world where you can think, for one second, that Apple might not be trying to obfuscate something. Grow up dude.

Apple never said iPhone OS was "Mac OS X" they have always referenced "OS X", you know, the core foundation of the OS, like NT?

And quit artificially complicating the numbering scheme. It's pretty easy to follow. It should be the same for you as it has been since kindergarten. 1 comes before 2 and so on.

On the reverse, can you show me a page on the MS site where they publicly address the fact the Win 7 is merely NT 6.1?

Definitely a problem taking a chart outside of it's context - a keynote.  And then nitpicking about disclaimers when Schiller clearly stated what the chart was supposed to represent.

OK, after reading two days of articles and comments I'm finally chiming in here.

I don't understand why all these current iPhone owners are complaining they have to pay more than a new customer to get the new phone?

It's always been that way with ANY cell phone if you're in the middle of your contract. Why do you think you should be any different, just because it's an Apple product?  I don't care what carrier, what cell phone you use/have: if you want to upgrade in the middle of your current contract you pay full price!

So stop your bitching!

Now, I think it's crap if I'm a 10 year long customer of ATT&T - Cingular - AT&T and why I cannot get the same prices as a new customer. Isn't my 10 year history of loyal customer worth anything to AT&T to keep me? Answer: NO from AT&T. Trust me I've argued this plenty of times with AT&T.

So, stop all this bitching you iPhone users. You're not any different than me with my little Samsung flip phone! If I want to upgrade in the middle of my contract, I pay FULL PRICE.

Get over your g damn smugness!

By  the way, my little Wal-Mart $69 Samsung dumb flip phone does MMS with pictures!!

ModernDislocation

"The talk about OS X was not in the Snow Leopard part of talk."

Oh? What section was it that talked about Macintosh, iPhone and iPod Touch?

danieldecker

I guess I'm confused, you say "Apple never said iPhone OS was "Mac OS X" " and the text of the keynote provided by ModernDislocation says the sales they're showing is "Mac OS X. This isn't shipments but actual active users. "

So, the chart was active users of Mac OS X but they never say that iPhone OS is Mac OS X but yet they include iPhone OS users as part of Mac OS X "actual active users"?

Seriously. You really think that isn't deceptive?

@Mike

www.apple.com/.../13wwdc.html

So there.

@Mike if you bothered to watch, when the slide transitions from Mac OS X users to OS X users in the graph, the title of teh slide changes appropriately as does Shiller's language.

It requires that you pay attention. Just because you miss the information doesn't mean you were lied to.

Where is that Win 7 info I asked you for?

daProject

"Schiller clearly stated what the chart was supposed to represent."

Yes, he said it's actual active users of Mac OS X.

Of course, it isn't. It's (possibly) users of Mac OS X and iPhone OS combined shown as growth over just Mac OS X users.

But I'm glad that you think he was clear when he decieves you. It means he's getting the Steve Jobs knack for misleading keynotes.

@Mike Apparently you are easily confused then.

I mean, you are seemingly unable to follow a basic Arabic number scheme after all.

danieldecker

Yes, over a year ago they used to refer to it as OS X iPhone OS 2.0 in an archived press release announcing courses at a conference over a year ago.

But the product we're talking about isn't OS X iPhone OS 2.0, it's iPhone OS 3.0 which no longer is not referred to as OS X.

Perhaps he should have shown a drop for OS X users when they stopped claiming iPhone OS was OS X? Guess that wouldn't have made a good chart though.

See the iPhone OS 3.0 pages at the Apple Website for the very clear LACK of any OS X references.

See the OS X numbers minus iPhone and iPod Touch to see a chart that no longer goes up.

@danieldecker

Not strictly an MS site but a blog by the developers - will this do?

windowsteamblog.com/.../why-7.aspx

They never hid it, in fact they explained the numbering scheme when they announced it.

@mike -

Schiller comes out welcomes the crowed. He gives a brief introduction says this going going to be a great conference and gives the chart as a reason why (complete with explanation of what is being included with math).

Following the chart he says  "So in this keynote we would like to tell you about some of the things we are doing with the mac, iphone and ipod touch."

He then goes on to say who is going to come out and talk about what.

So, to answer your question of which party of the keynote, I think it would be called the introduction and not one of the product specific sections.

Interesting!

I guess Microsoft has a strong argument that its not a monopoly. Google did just that:

government.zdnet.com

The iPhone, FWIW, is the most innovative consumer phone out there. I don't care for smartphones much, so I don't see myself getting one in the near future.  I do agree with mike about how Apple conveniently redefines its markets to make its products look better.

There is a lot of poking and jabbing at AT&T by Apple. Perhaps Apple should have thought about that WHEN THEY SIGNED THE CONTRACT. Apple is just as much to blame here as AT&T. We all know when Apple announced the deal with AT&T that it was the wrong move. Had Apple released this phone to multiple carriers, then we wouldn't be dealing with AT&T's jacked up prices and feature lock-outs. Blame both, not just AT&T.

Second, did anyone get the feeling that Apple is scared to death of Windows 7? I'll bet this $29 thing was thrown in this weekend. Also, because Apple had to make stuff up about W7, it feels like they are more concerned with targeting W7 than touting what they've actually done. Classic move by someone who knows their competition has a strong hand.

BTW, ModernDislocation is not right about pricing. Existing customers have not finished paying the subsidy on their $200 phones, so they don't get to jump over to another subsidized phone before completing the payment of their existing phone.

Pingback from  iPhone software 3.0  will not be made available in the US | hilpers

@ mike

"...he said it's actual active users of Mac OS X."

No, he didn't.

dmccall  said

"it feels like they are more concerned with targeting W7 than touting what they've actually done. Classic move by someone who knows their competition has a strong hand"

Ironic stating that the company that has a stranglehold monopoly on PC OSs has a strong hand, don't you think?

@Mike again, picking nits.

Give. It. Up. Just come to terms with being wrong and move on, you'll feel much better.

This is exactly why people give up trying to show MikeGalos where he is wrong.

Because no matter how often you point to the evidence, he says, "no, that's not right because"... and just keeps it going and going.

Based on MikeGalos logic...

Microsoft shouldn't call the .NET Compact Framework .NET...I mean, can you take a .NET Framework application and just run it on the .NET Compact Framework?

It's the same thing with trying to say that Mac OS X is the same as "OS X" or "iPhone OS"...even if they use the same kernel, or a subset of said kernel.

"Their keynote charts are always massaged to show bizarre things that Apple wants you to infer when the real data wouldn't make their point."

Just like your arguments, Mikey, which lead us to infer that Apple is a massive failure when in fact the exact opposite is true. Your bizarro world is just...well, bizarre.

"@Mike quit picking nits. You are coming across as childish and petty. You can't accept a world where you can think, for one second, that Apple might not be trying to obfuscate something. Grow up dude."

***applause, applause****

I'm thinking Mikeygalos must be a lot of fun at family picnics. Probably argues about people calling Miracle Whip "Mayonnaise" in the potato salad or some stupid damn thing.

"@Mike again, picking nits. "

They keep falling out of his beard.

@dmcall

Oh really? I'm a current iPhone 3G user. Got it day one. I can purchase an iPhone 3G[s] on day one of it's release for $499, not the $699 Paul claims. So.

It is a customer dependent price and each user should check with AT&T to see which price they qualify for.

You are right about not being able to jump from one subsidized phone to another without paying a penalty If you do so before the terms of the original contract are up. Good job, you get a gold star.

@dmccall

"ModernDislocation is not right about pricing. Existing customers have not finished paying the subsidy on their $200 phones, so they don't get to jump over to another subsidized phone before completing the payment of their existing phone."

Huh? I never claimed they could jump to a new subsidized phone. I said the price for upgrade was 499 and 599 and not the 599 and 699 that Paul quoted. Paul's pricing is for a phone with no contract not for people mid-contract. And that is correct and is can be found on the AT&T site.

www.wireless.att.com/.../iphone-info.jsp

I know a few people that had early upgrade last year, got their 3G and are not able to upgrade at the 199 and 299 prices.

"You are right about not being able to jump from one subsidized phone to another without paying a penalty If you do so before the terms of the original contract are up."

Exactly. Just like every other phone with every other carrier on the planet.

"This is a chart of OS X users in the first five full years of Mac OS X, 2002 to 2007. Great steady growth, adoption. Mac OS X. This isn't shipments but actual active users. Up to 25 million, but something incredible has happened over the last two years. To show you that I need to change the scale of the graph a bit. (Keynote: magic move) And this is what happened with iPhone, with iPod Touch we have tripled the number of active users of OS X across these products."

I guess Windows Mobile phones are doing extremely well, considering that Windows has a 1 bn. user base. Mike is right. The OS in iPhone is very, very different from the OS used in Macs. It's like Microsoft including Windows CE point of sale systems to determine the Windows user base. Very, very misleading.

"This is exactly why people give up trying to show MikeGalos where he is wrong."

Actually, the reason is that I'm not willing to be bullied into pretenting some person is correct just because they're loud.

Show actual facts and I'm happy to back down. Keep repeating opinions as fact or repeating things that aren't true and the repetition doesn't make you right in my book. Sorry if bullying usually works for you and you've gotten used to it. Deal with it not working here.

Shark

Just an FYI: Most new Point of Sale systems now use Windows Embedded and not Windows CE. And now the WEPOS 1.x systems are moving up a generation to POSReady systems.

See: www.microsoft.com/.../default.mspx for more details.

One other reality check that is that the iPhone is currently the de facto standard when it comes to multi-purpose mobile phones (for those that don't know what "de facto" means, it is a Latin phrase meaning "concerning the fact" or "in practice"). Like it or not, that is the case. Would I buy an iPhone? No...but, I would consider an iPod Touch if Apple offered a subscription service. Does that mean that Apple is wrong with thier model? Not at all...there are many that use and enjoy it. So be it.

As for the argument regarding the OS X vs iPhone OS, mikegalos is just pulling out a petty argument because for some reason, he feels threatened by Apple's recent successes. He wants to paint them as an evil empire, when in reality, they are much like Microsoft...a company that started small and grew into what it is today. A company that is in certain markets TO MAKE MONEY. The Apple fanatics need to understand that as well...Apple is really not looking out for your best interests...it is the stockholders' interests that they truely care about...just like Microsoft. Bill Gates has shown what it really means to be a philanthropist by what he started before his retirement from the company and what he continues today!

--tayme

"First, existing iPhone 3G customers cannot upgrade to a 3G S for $199 or $299. Those prices are for new customers only. You will pay $599 or $699. Yeah, really. "

Same for any phone at ATT, if your in the middle of a contract no upgrade pricing.  Probably the same for Verizon and Sprint.

Paul were you thinking the 3.0 update would inject hardware into your old phone so you could use such things as the compass?  Pure genius brother.

www.winsuperhack.com

tayme

Actually, Windows Mobile is the de facto standard for multi-purpose mobile phones.

As an example, even Apple uses what are essentially Windows Mobile devices for their in-store mobile POS system.

To catch up in that market, Apple would either have to manufacture or let others manufacture devices in more form factors than a capacitance touch candybar. For example there is no iPhone available that's ruggedized or MilSpec or NSA certified secure or designed for hazardous environments or environments that require gloves or hazmat suits since those don't work with capacitance touch screens. On top of that, they don't have a compatible embedded OS for OEMs that want to make the same controller or multi-function device for use in both a hand-held and console version or in an environment where any form of touch is a bad choice or, for that matter, a totally unusable one.

They do well in selling to the upscale consumer status market. When you get beyond that niche, iPhone is a non-starter.

Just a couple of examples

The General Dynamics Sectera Edge - The only NSA certfied secure "smart phone" www.gdc4s.com/.../detail.cfm

The Motorola FR 68 and FR 6000 which are rated to survive 300 and 500 falls from 1.5' onto concrete respectively (The FR 6000 is also certified for dust and liquid sealing): www.windowsfordevices.com/.../NS3089236997.html and www.stonenarcher.com/.../FR

As I mentioned yesterday (now taken from PC Magazine):

>>Business Skills: Make no mistake, Apple is more interested in the enterprise than ever. The additions of tethering and cut-and-paste capabilities to the iPhone OS 3.0 are designed to satisfy business users. Now Microsoft Exchange support is being built right into OS X. This announcement received one of the biggest rounds of applause during the keynote and for good reason. When the new OS ships, Macs will be able to integrate seamlessly with Exchange-based offices. Again, this is not necessarily the most exciting announcement, but one that could have the biggest long-term impact on users and Apple. <<

>>They do well in selling to the upscale consumer status market. When you get beyond that niche, iPhone is a non-starter.<<

Lets put it another way:

* Apple targeted a portion of the mobile phone market, concentrated their efforts, and as a result, have obliterated the competition there.  *

As well as they're doing there, I don't think they're worried about being all things to all the rest.

"As an example, even Apple uses what are essentially Windows Mobile devices for their in-store mobile POS system. "

Not in the Apple Store where I live. I was recently in there and their "Genius" appointment booking and sales were done on either an iPhone or iPod...not sure which it was. Maybe you are referring to the backend system....which very well may be Windows powered, I am not sure.

Since all new multi-purpose mobile phones are now compared to the iPhone, in my book...that makes it the de facto standard. Look at the Pre release...and the Samsung Omnia, and HTC Touch, and the G1. The feature sets were all compared to iPhone's.

--tayme

"The General Dynamics Sectera Edge..."

I don't remember seeing anything comparing the features of any other phone to that one in order to make a sell in the consumer market. Yes, I know...I didn't say Consumer Multi-Purpose Mobile Phone...my mistake.

--tayme

"The additions of tethering and cut-and-paste capabilities to the iPhone OS 3.0 are designed to satisfy business users."

OK. That may go down as the silly statement of the discussion (beard comments excluded).

Cut-and-paste is a business feature?

It's sad what's happened to the once important PC Magazine.

MikeGalos,

Continually being shown where and why you are wrong is not called bullying.

C'Mon Mike, either debate or don't.

Don't nitpick one little detail to derail an argument you can't win.

tayme

"Not in the Apple Store where I live. "

Then you're in a test market store. Apple's been using the Windows Mobile based EasyPay system since 2005 and announced about six weeks ago that they'll be transitioning to a new home grown system sometime after iPhone OS 3.0 ships.

panache

"Continually being shown where and why you are wrong is not called bullying."

And when did you do that? (Forget "continually", when did you actually post a factual correction to a factual error in one of my posts?)

All I had to do was point to the comments that multiple other posters were posting.

Just because you don't want to admit you are wrong, and are repeatedly shown where and why you are wrong, is not bullying.

Maybe you should just stroke your beard and say, "it's OK MikeGalos, you can be wrong sometimes, especially when it comes to anything to do with computers"

And just to make sure it is seen here...

MikeGalos was arrogantly trying to claim that Apple is charging $29 to upgrade to SnowLeopard and compared it to Vista SP1 moving to Vista SP2...

here was my response, which no doubt he will ignore

MikeGalos,

Here's a comparison for you

Mac OS X 10.5 -> Mac OS X 10.6 - $29

Windows NT 6.0 -> Windows NT 6.1 - ???  how much?

Until MS says $29 or less,  it's time to take your beard and shut up.

"Actually, to the Windows Mobile comments, I would add this. Apple had a chart listing the number of apps per phone. Conspicuously missing, of course, was Windows Mobile, which has over 20,000 apps and would thus be number two in that market."

Oh, I forgot Apple is supposed to advertise their competitors products! Who knew!

Of course in the much-discussed Windows 7 version differences table, or "feature list" as Mike prefers, Microsoft failed to list Mac OS X! I'm shocked, just shocked at that conspicuous omission. The nerve! Mac OS X is number two in that market!

Seriously, don't companies try to portray their own products in the best possible light? This is a surprise to anyone? Somehow it's just terrible when Apple does it? But fine when Microsoft does the same thing?

Just the daily hypocrisy dose here on the winuberalles blog.

Wife just tried to pre-order a 16gig.  She does not qualify until 7-25, and she currently has a razor.

She could pay the high price and get one, SO ITS NOT just current iPhone users.

Oh and at ATT they are aready back ordered.

I'm pretty sure the iphone and ipod don't use OSX. if they did, wouldn't the OSX SDKs and APIs work on them?

Cut and paste:

>>I can’t understand why there isn’t more of an uproar about this must-have option in such a versatile device. I’m tired of typing in long web addresses from notes, address book notes, and iCal note fields...

I’m tired of typing in redundant information into notes or iCal entries. I’m tired of hand copying text from web sites into other applications. Heck, try typing, from memory at best, long WEP keys for protected wireless networks! Tired, tired, tired!<<

"They do well in selling to the upscale consumer status market. When you get beyond that niche, iPhone is a non-starter."

Jealousy is such an ugly thing. Much like mikegalos himself.

panache

Actually, I did respond to your pointless post in the othe thread. (Oh, and did you think adding the beard comment made your point somehow more valid? More fact based?)

So, where is the "factual correction" in you wanting the upgrad price between two products that exist only in your imagination?

As I said earlier and you still haven't actually answered: when did you actually post a factual correction to a factual error in one of my posts?

MikeGalos,

The beard comments are just funny, that's all.

But again...are you saying that Windows NT 6.0 is not a real thing just because it's marketed as Vista?

Are you saying Windows NT 6.1 is not real since it's marketed as Windows 7?

Obviously you can't address the POINT of the matter...

That you criticize Apple for charging $29 for a point release, but no one hears a word from you about MS charging for a POINT release.

Now that I cleared up the (obvious) point for you, you can stop stroking your beard as a way to help you relax, and start stroking your beard as a way to help you think.

MikeGalos,

I don't have to point out where you are wrong that at the keynote yesterday that the OS used on the iPhone was referred to and counted as Mac OS X when other posters have already done so.

See their posts to find out why you are wrong.

en.wikipedia.org/.../IPhone_OS

panache

Actually you seem to be ducking the "point of the matter" by substituting a mix of product and kernel versions as though they were a set of real products.

Now, are you saying: Microsoft should charge $29 or less for any version upgrade from Windows Vista to Windows 7? Is that what you meant to say?

Are you also trying to say "since the kernel number is only a point release it isn't a full OS upgrade"?

Are you also trying to say then that all OS X upgrades (that usually cost $129) should be $29 or less since they're also, by your definition, point releases?

If not, you need a new definition.

If so, you must think Apple's been ripping people off for 10.1->10.2->10.3->10.4->10.5->10.6

And what about that 10.0->10.1 upgrade that was a free bug fix? Should Apple users send a check to Apple?

You see, it gets more complicated when you express even your opinions (and these are your opinions and no way are "factual error" corrections) in a way that actually has meaning.

Again: when did you actually post a factual correction to a factual error in one of my posts?

@mherm88  quoting neowin.net is like quoting MS marketing department.

panache

Actually, the other posters confirmed that Apple counted iPhone OS as Mac OS X which is a deceptive value. At best it could be counted as part of the "Apple OS X Family of Operating Systems" which is NOT how it was presented in yesterday's keynote. There the phrase was: "Mac OS X. This isn't shipments but actual active users." and while a case could be made for iPhone OS 3.0 being in the OS X family, it is clearly NOT "Mac OS X" as the use of "Mac" refers to Macintosh products.

But, again, it's interesting that you can't find a case where you actually post a factual correction to a factual error in one of my posts.

"Wife just tried to pre-order a 16gig.  She does not qualify until 7-25, and she currently has a razor."

Lindy are you a dude? lol

MikeGalos,

What's interesting is that you use a post of mine which proves your hypocrisy as if I was trying to post a "factual error correction" of yours.

Then, you take an excerpt of a sentence from the keynote AGAIN and use it as proof your statements (which are in error) and say that your statements have been confirmed.

Very weird.

And here you are, the bearded wonder that claims when you are wrong you back down, yet...you know what, you're too pathetic to keep this going.

Your hypocrisy is immeasurable, but rates only second to your inability to admit when you are wrong.

Panache

You claimed that you are " continually showing where and why [I am] wrong " but yet you can't find one case of anything factually wrong that you've corrected.

As for the claims you can't seem to understand, I'll simplify it for you with some simple statements:

iPhone OS 3.0 is not Mac OS X (True or False? I'd say this is true. Do you agree or disagree?)

The keynote yesterday showed a growth chart described as actual users of Mac OS X (True or False? Again, I'd say this is true and showed the actual quote from the keynote - provided by a Mac advocate - that backs me up. Do you agree or disagree?)

Since iPhone OS is not Mac OS X then including its users in a count of Mac OS X users is deceptive. (I'd agree - if you disagree please explain why)

Now, that isn't that hard. All you have to do to show I'm wrong is show:

How iPhone OS is actually Mac OS X or

Show a transcript that shows the statement describing the chart is wrong or

Explain why a chart of actual Mac OS X users should include people not using Mac OS X.

Or, you can apologize.

Your choice.

@mikegalos - "Apple counted iPhone OS as Mac OS X"

Since you were the first in this thread to say it and you continue to say that Apple said it...can you point me to a link where you got that "fact"? If you have already, somewhere earlier in this thread, I sincerely apologize. You saying it is not proof that anybody at Apple said it, by the way...much as you said that panache pointing to other's responses is not proof.

--tayme

Pingback from  WWDC 2009 Reality Check 2.0: iPhone 3G vs. 3G S - SuperSite Blog &laquo; the mobile tech

Woah.... sit boys, sit!

>>iPhone OS 3.0 is not Mac OS X (True or False? )<<

True.  Though why you worded it that way is a mystery.

Iphone OS / = Mac OS X

They're family, and Apples calls them the same thing (basically), but they run on different platforms so they are different.

Windows Mobile / = Windows either.  

Oh dear God. In the end, Apple, Microsoft, and Google are all there to make money and if you believe otherwise, then God bless you. I think, thanks to the Justice Department's case, most people at least realize that about Microsoft.

Mike refuses to acknowledge the distinction between "Mac OS X" a desktop operating system and "OS X" a collection of operating system foundation technologies that is at the core of "Mac OS X" and "iPhone OS X/iPhone OS 2.0-3.0" and "Darwin", the open source derivative.

Therefore I will refuse acknowledge the difference between "Windows 2000" a desktop operating system and "NT 5.0" the underlying OS foundation. My refusal to acknowledge this distinction allows me to call "Windows 7" what it really is "NT 6.1"

Wow, I can be wrong, and therefore be like Mike! Awesome!

In the end, none of you is willing to let go. If mikegalos is an idiot, so are all of you.

Heres proof that the iPhone runs a stripped version of OS X:

web.archive.org/.../index.html

I quote from the page:

"iPhone uses OS X, the world’s most advanced operating system. Which means you have access to the best-ever software on a handheld device, including rich HTML email, full-featured web browsing, and favorite applications including Address Book and Calendar. iPhone is also fully multi-tasking, so you can read a web page while downloading your email in the background. This software completely redefines what you can do with a mobile phone."

Nice Daniel.  Nice.

@sharky - Bravo!!!

--tayme

@Shark Way to take all the fun out of it! Besides, I have tried to leave name calling out of it all. Can't speak for the rest of these folks.

Mike's a smart guy, knows a lot of stuff. I'm sure he is so obstinate as a way to keep things riled up. I just can't believe an intelligent person is actually that dense.

In the end, on my side of the fence, I'm right and I always win, same for Mike and his side of the fence.

Faux umbrage + intellectual dishonesty + hyperbole = Paul Thurrott on Apple.

"You will pay $599 or $699. Yeah, really. "

Yeah, really, just like every other expensive phone that gets hundreds of dollars in subsidy in exchange for a longer contract.

As for true pre-emptive multitasking, well... it's a niche feature for a 3.5" screened mobile device. I can't think or many instances where I wished for background tasks that the much-delayed push notification won't address.

But hey, since that is a deficiency, why not play it up like a huge deal.  The pre's cards UI is cool... and an utter rip off of the iPhone's safari tabs UI.

"I just can't believe an intelligent person is actually that dense."

He's a West Coast liberal. What else do you expect?

I'm kidding, but it might at least change the topic, unless Paul deletes this comment. :)

@Shark,

Well said.

Again MikeGalos is shown proof he is wrong, but continues to insist he is right.

"She does not qualify until 7-25, and she currently has a razor."

Maybe mikey would like to borrow it if he ever decides to shave his manly beard.

Mikey is confusing a presentation slide—which is there for backup and eye candy, designed to support the speaker—with what the speaker actually said, which was, "To show you that I need to change the scale of the graph a bit. (Keynote: magic move) And this is what happened with iPhone, with iPod Touch—we have tripled the number of active users of OS X ACROSS THESE PRODUCTS." (emphasis mine)

"These Products", in this case, are the iPhone and iPod Touch devices using a variant of OS X referred to as the "iPhone OS". To a DEVELOPER (you know, mikey, the target audience), this is significant. because the underlying programming tools are largely the same. And, mikey, this IS a DEVELOPER show.

I know you know this, but in the absence of anything substantive to criticize, you're focusing in like a laser beam on a relatively insignificant semantic point in order to back up your oft-repeated claim that Apple is (pick one: incompetent, irrelevant, evil, insignificant, etc).

In the end, you're the one that winds up looking like the pathetic WinJihadist that you are. Some "evangelist". Guy Kawasaki would slap you upside the head for the ridiculous way you've behaved in this thread today.

I'm amazed at these arguments..  the passion! :)

I'd bet Paul posts a lot of these Apple stories on his Microsoft Windows focused website to get the "Dvorak effect". He is probably sitting back and laughing at all of this...

Keep in mind that conversely to sharky's comment, if the rest of you are liars, so is mikegalos.

--tayme

Requoting ModernDislocation transcription above (which I assume is correct):

"This is a chart of OS X users in the first five full years of Mac OS X, 2002 to 2007. Great steady growth, adoption. Mac OS X. This isn't shipments but actual active users. Up to 25 million, but something incredible has happened over the last two years. To show you that I need to change the scale of the graph a bit. (Keynote: magic move) And this is what happened with iPhone, with iPod Touch we have tripled the number of active users of OS X across these products."

It seems to me (as a Windows user, didn't even like the iPhone, but that's probably just me and touchscreen phones - didn't like the Storm either), that the statement can be interpreted either way depending on what bent you have.  It goes from talking Mac OS X to just OS X.  In my opinion it isn't deceitful (as it is technically correct if taken literally), but it is phrased in such a way that it is relatively easy to take it as meaning that Mac OS X has grown to 75M users.

But really, Mac OS X and iPhone/iPodTouch really are different products and never should be reported together.  I don't really care if they share some of the same underpinnings, they are completely different products.  I'd say the same if Microsoft reported Windows client, server and mobile numbers all together.

All it seems to me is that they are trying to hide something (e.g., slow/no growth of Mac users).  But again, the stats aren't lies, just pure marketing fluff.  Most companies play with stats to make their products look better.  To think not is naive.

P.S. - apologies for the novel ;-)

Finally!  I found some 'Proof" that MikeGalos will surely shoot down..but come on!

www.cs.clemson.edu/.../multithreading.html

If, according to MikeGalos, threads were created by MS and IBM in 1987, how could there have been hardware multithreading even being considered in the 60s?

Give it up Mike...Maybe you meant to say, "MS and IBM created multiple threads for OS2, which DOS didn't have at the time", but that's a HUGE difference compared to giving MS credit for CREATING threads.

ok now, go ahead and show why ANOTHER source is no good...meanwhile, you haven't give me a SINGLE LINK to follow that supports your claims.

More proof to debunk MG's claims that MS had something to do with the invention of threads.

ei.cs.vt.edu/.../Parallel.html

"[26] The UNIVAC division of Sperry Rand Corporation delivers the first multiprocessor 1108. Each contains up to 3 CPUs and 2 I/O controllers; its EXEC 8 operating system provides interface for multithread program execution. "

The year was 1966!

how about this quote

The potential speed-up of an algorithm on a parallel computing platform is given by Amdahl's law, originally formulated by Gene Amdahl in the 1960s.[11] It states that a small portion of the program which cannot be parallelized will limit the overall speed-up available from parallelization. Any large mathematical or engineering problem will typically consist of several parallelizable parts and several non-parallelizable (sequential) parts. This relationship is given by the equation:"

from this link

en.wikipedia.org/.../Parallel_computing

That's right...again, the 60s.

ok Mike Galos...now that you have been shown to be incorrect that MS along with IBM invented threads, where is your admission of being incorrect?

"Why don't you show us the Apple web page where it shows that iPhone OS 3.0 is Mac OS X 10.something."

Actually, mike, let me get the YouTube video where they lied and called iPhone OS: "OS X"....

Since Windows has compatibility layers built into it that date back to Windows 95, we can call Windows Mobile: "Windows 95" as well, since it adopted a lot of code from Windows 95 (it's origins stem from Windows CE which was borrowed from early Windows 3.1/95 transitional code and heavily modified to fit the embedded market - as well, it was made to run on non-x86 hardware).  Windows Mobile is nowhere close to its origins anymore though.

Apple only calls iPhone OS X when it suits them.  If it doesn't run OS X applications, it isn't OS X.  Apple should quit lying about it.

"OS X" is a very specific term:  it's the OS for Apple Mac computers, which is the 10th version of Mac OS.  It is never called OS "ex".  OS X isn't just the Mach kernel either.  It is the complete desktop OS package, of which, the iPhone OS is not.

By comparison, "Windows" is a general term.  Windows Mobile isn't called "Windows XP Mobile" or "Windows Vista Mobile".  They have embedded versions that ARE direct copies of Windows XP, etc., for that, and THEY ARE called "Windows XP Embedded", etc.

"To a DEVELOPER (you know, mikey, the target audience), this is significant. because the underlying programming tools are largely the same."

LOL!

You know nothing.

A programmer you are NOT!

"As for true pre-emptive multitasking, well... it's a niche feature for a 3.5" screened mobile device. I can't think or many instances where I wished for background tasks that the much-delayed push notification won't address."

Downloading OTA RSS feeds (with video and audio attachments - those are what you call "podcasts"), while reading and responding to email, and listening to music over stereo A2DP Bluetooth.

I've been doing that for the last 2+ years - first on my Moto Q, now on my Touch Diamond.

why would paul expect contracted users to be able to get any deals for the 3GS, that's what contracts mean and the same as any other subsidized phone.  still, it allows him to gripe and that's what he loves doing most.

"Not in the Apple Store where I live. I was recently in there and their "Genius" appointment booking and sales were done on either an iPhone or iPod...not sure which it was. Maybe you are referring to the backend system....which very well may be Windows powered, I am not sure."

They use Windows Mobile powered Symbol handheld scanners for tracking and inventory management.

Anybody who's seen them knows they look like a PDA on a gun handle.

Did Paul really say this today in his quick take?

(www.winsupersite.com/.../iphone3_gm.asp):

"In any event, the iPhone remains the best smart phone choice for Windows users."

Paul, how could you? Say it ain't so!!!

"Did Paul really say this today in his quick take?"

He's delusional, of course.

www.appleinsider.com/.../apple_stores_to_ditch_windows_easypay_systems_for_iphone_tech.html

"In any event, the iPhone remains the best smart phone choice for Windows users."

That's so wrong. The Samsung i8000 (aka Omnia II), the XPeria X2, the Samsung i7500, the Samsung i8910HD and a whole lot of other smartphones are on their way, and all of them are way better than the iPhone 3GS.

"This is a chart of OS X users in the first five full years of Mac OS X, 2002 to 2007. Great steady growth, adoption. Mac OS X. This isn't shipments but actual active users. Up to 25 million, but something incredible has happened over the last two years. To show you that I need to change the scale of the graph a bit. (Keynote: magic move) And this is what happened with iPhone, with iPod Touch we have tripled the number of active users of OS X across these products."

Wasn't OS X a significant change from OS 9  where they basically scrapped what they had and started with a UNIX based OS with NeXTSTEP technology and it is this new OS basis that they decided to use for the iPhone - that's why they call it OS X.

And wasn't it the point that they were talking to developers to tell them that thanks to the addition of the iPhone/iPod touch OS X platform that those developers now have a total of 75 million customers for whom they can develop software?

What is the controversy?

Penache -

You're clearly way out of your league here.  What Apple calls "Grand Central" (or "Grand Central Dispatch") is technology that has been a part of Windows NT for well more than a decade (most of it close to two decades).

OS X has been notorious for poor threading support since the very beginning.  In the first several releases the mess of the Mach microkernel (thread friendly) + FreeBSD kernel (thread averse) resulted in nightmare hacks like the "split funnel" and such.

They've slowly been cleaning up that mess over the various point releases, but now they claim that Snow Leopard is a major overhaul.  However, they have not provided, to my knowledge, very many specifics about what, exactly, Grand Central consists of.  All indications I've seen are that it includes an overhaul of their previously laughable thread scheduler and perhaps something akin to the NT thread pool (per their demonstration about "more threads while working, but they go away when idle").

Meanwhile, as Apple catches up to NT 4.0 technology, Windows has implemented state-of-the-art user-mode scheduling for switching between user-mode threads without the usual context switch penalty.  It also has built an impressive new framework for developing for multi-core/many-core systems with things like ConcRT (which builds on Win7's user-mode scheduling) with powerful yet easy-to-use constructs like the parallel_for and parallel_for_each loops.

You see, once you step outside the Reality Distortion Field you'll find that OS X isn't the beacon of modern technological prowess that you ignorantly thought it was.

Panache,

Again feel free to show what's wrong in the below (rather than just saying "admit you're wrong" when I'm not)

iPhone OS 3.0 is not Mac OS X (True or False? I'd say this is true. Do you agree or disagree?)

The keynote yesterday showed a growth chart described as actual users of Mac OS X (True or False? Again, I'd say this is true and showed the actual quote from the keynote - provided by a Mac advocate - that backs me up. Do you agree or disagree?)

Since iPhone OS is not Mac OS X then including its users in a count of Mac OS X users is deceptive. (I'd agree - if you disagree please explain why)

Panache -

Windows 7 is the 7.0 release of Windows.  It reports 6.1 via the versionining APIs for compatibility purposes.

"In any event, the iPhone remains the best smart phone choice for Windows users."

While it is innovative, I wouldn't say it's the best. That mostly depends on your requirements. It is not the best phone for me. In fact, no smartphone would be the best phone for me. I want my phone to be able to make calls and have a good battery life. A free phone is more than enough for me. There's no such thing as "one size fits all".

Aside from inaccurate information Paul posted, which many have pointed out already, why even stop there?

How about:

- Not excluding Nike+ on 3G? Wouldn't it help Apple sell more Nike+ accessories and collect more loyalty from Nike?

- Why exclude MMS from the original iPhone since even the cheapest GPRS phones have MMS? And A2DP Bluetooth for that matter?

Basically, Apple wants users to upgrade. But since iPhone 3G users can't upgrade without paying double the fee, they really can't upgrade. By the time they are eligible for fully subsidized pricing, there will be new iPhone model. I suspect 3GS is to lure original iPhone users to upgrade as well as to refresh to counter Pre attack.

ddecker

"Mike refuses to acknowledge the distinction between "Mac OS X" a desktop operating system and "OS X" a collection of operating system foundation technologies that is at the core of "Mac OS X" and "iPhone OS X/iPhone OS 2.0-3.0" and "Darwin", the open source derivative."

Nope. You've got it wrong:

Mac OS X - an operating system product based on the Apple OS X architecture

iPhone - a device operating system product based on the Apple OS X architecture

OS X - the core Apple OS architecture based on Unix

Darwin - a group of core OS components released to a variant of Open Source by Apple as part of the requirements for them to use them

There is no such thing as iPhone OS X.

The chart shown yesterday showed the total of all OS X family operating systems combined (Mac OS X and iPhone OS) but was presented NOT as the total for the family of operating systems (which would have been true but less impressive) but the users of "Mac OS X" which is NOT the case but made for a great chart and a cute "we have to change the scale" comment that was NOT true of Mac OS X usage.

So, yeah, I know what I'm talking about and, yeah, the chart was deceptive.

nutmac

" I suspect 3GS is to lure original iPhone users to upgrade as well as to refresh to counter Pre attack."

Since anyone who waited in line to pay too much for the 1st Generation iPhone is now seeing their 2-year contract end, that is a likely motivation.

threedaysdwn

Bingo. Exactly right.

Now imagine the disaster Apple saw a couple of years ago when it became obvious even to them that massive numbers of cores and massive multithreading were going to take over for the collapse of ever increasing processor speeds. With their really bad thread processing, they were in a world of hurt unless they bit the bullet and rewrote key parts of their low level OS. Which, to give them credit for at least recognizing the problem at all, they did. (Assuming Grand Central Dispatch works in this first release.)

But, of course, taking a full OS rev cycle to do architecture clean up means they lost a couple of years in everything else so I'd expect 10.8 to be a very significant product revision in terms of user level features and UI that got put on hold while the kernel people owned the feature list.

Oh and Panache

Once again you're confusing threads and processes.

You did a nice job on multiprocess architectures which, as you say, date back about 50 years now.

Threads (as we use the term these days) are not the same as full processes. And if you really want to get confused, compare processes, threads and fibers.

But keep trying. I'm sure you're learning something if you're reading those articles and not just skimming for keywords you don't understand in context.

I think the reason Snow Leopard is such a minor update is that Apple has a hard time focusing on more than one thing at a time.  iPhone is now their focus, so OS X gets neglected.  It's probably manned by a skeleton crew other than the pieces which overlap with the iPhone OS.  That's why they were able to do some core improvements (since they'll likely translate to benefits for future iPhone / iPod like devices), but the user-facing feature changes are minimal.  And where they do happen, they're implemented poorly (see: really clumsy attempt to copy Win7 UI)

@mikegalos

What on earth possesses you to continue with this folly? Even if you were right I really don't understand what point you are trying to make.

At an Apple developers conference... Apple informs those developers that the potential market for their products is ... a whole lot larger than it was before?

Where's your beef?

The fact that you are wrong (on the boring details) and repeatedly so, makes it even harder to fathom.

"The keynote yesterday showed a growth chart described as actual users of Mac OS X (True or False? "

Well false actually.

The quote from Schiller that Modern posted is accurate.

"This is a chart of OS X users for the first five full years of Mac OS X, 2002 to 2007." The title on that graph is "OS X Active Users"

The graph expands to the year 2009 and Schiller says.. "And this is what happened with iPhone, with iPod Touch we have tripled the number of active users of OS X across these products." the title on the new, expanded  graph is STILL "OS X Active Users"

Schiller, his slides and no-one on this thread have described iPhone/touch users as mac OS X users. Boring but true.

Mike I sincerely hope that you have simply made a mistake because if you really mean to be so obtuse then you are not doing Paul any favours.

SPiotr

You left out a key part of Schiller describing the chart:

"Great steady growth, adoption. Mac OS X. This isn't shipments but actual active users. "

Note he refers to the chart as showing the growth and adoption of not the OS X family but of Mac OS X.

Typical Apple deceptive presentation with, I'm sure, plausible deniablity of "Well, I didn't mean to say that -  when I said 'Mac OS X' I really meant 'the whole OS X family' even if we never refer to iPhone OS as being part of OS X anymore" if he gets caught fudging the numbers. (As people here keep implying)

Meant or not, what he said the chart showed and what was actually shown on the chart did NOT agree with each other. Why do you choose to defend that?

threedaysdwn

"Apple has a hard time focusing on more than one thing at a time"

Not a surprise. Apple spends a lot smaller percentage of their budget on R&D than MS does -  but more on advertising, believe it or not :-).

Now combine that limited R&D budge with a push to consumer products rather than actual computer software and you've got a small team with limited resources trying to keep their OS going.

And then combine that with the small pool of system software level talent in the valley that hasn't been raided by Google money and you've got a tough environment to say the least.

@mikegalosagain

Dang, you've gone and done it again!

"The chart shown yesterday showed the total of all OS X family operating systems combined

(snip)

but was presented NOT as the total for the family of operating systems

(snip)

but the users of "Mac OS X""

No. And again No. Not once does Schiller refer to "Mac OS X users" He mentions "Mac OS X" the product a couple of times, but the users are always described as OS X users. I know it's just semantics but you have already derailed this whole thread by your simple mistake about a petty irrelevant detail.

Why don't you just view steam?

www.apple.com/.../keynote

"OS X Active Users"

Apple has no plausible way of measuring that, since there will be Mac users that use systems for business that have no internet access (or are behind a proxy), and taken with the iPhone/iPod touch figures collectively, you just can't believe anything they say.

I'd like to see where they come up with these magical numbers.

@ mike

"The chart shown yesterday showed the total of all OS X family operating systems combined (Mac OS X and iPhone OS) but was presented NOT as the total for the family of operating systems (which would have been true but less impressive) but the users of "Mac OS X" which is NOT the case but made for a great chart and a cute "we have to change the scale" comment that was NOT true of Mac OS X usage."

Okay, so we all agree that a charted labeled "OS X Active Users" showed the combined OS X family of products.

If I understand Mike correctly he is saying that the misleading part is that Schiller says: "Mac OS X. This isn't shipments but actual active users." an therefore attributes the iPhone and iPod numbers to the Mac OS X count. This would be correct except for it leaves out two things. First is what was said before that sentence. That sentence is proceeded by: "This is a chart of OS X users in the first five full years of Mac OS X, 2002 to 2007."  So, clearly he says it is a chart of OS X active users of which Mac OS X would be counted in.  The second thing is the numbers shown for that date range only included Mac OS X as that was the only OS X based product at the time. When he says "Mac OS X. This isn't shipments but actual active users." he is pointing out that Mac OS X is the only OS X based product being show on the graph and that that number is 25 million. He then goes to the next slide which includes the the two years that include the iPhone and iPod touch and says "And this is what happened with iPhone, with iPod Touch we have tripled the number of active users of OS X across these products."

So, he never claims either the iPhone nor the iPod Touch are based on Mac OS X. He does make a point of pointing out what is being included in the math of total number of OS X devices across two slides. Both slides are labeled "OS X Active Users" not Mac OS X Active users.

If you want to still insist that the claim was there are 75 million users of Mac OS X knock yourself out, but you are doing so based on a sentence taken out of the context as he clearly says not once but twice that the graphs represent OS X users and that would be OS X the family of products not Mac OS X.

I can confirm that I [owner of iPhone 3G] will be eligible for the upgrade to a 3G S for $199 or $299 when my ATT contract reaches the 18 month mark, in December. I can confirm that I do n ot have to pay the $599 or $699, or whatever, unless I upgrade before I am eligible. When I was a verizon customer, I was not eligible for an upgrade until the entire 2 year contract expired, and was told by two Verizon store managers that only the main holder of the contract was eligible for a discount [specifically my wife's phone was not eligible for a discount ever!!!] However, that was 3 years ago and one reason why I left Verizon, bad customer support.

Paul, you may want to correct your error about the price as it is not true, unless your are not eligible. You become eligible 18 months after the start of a 2 year contract, obviously sooner if it's only one year. Do those thieves actually sell one year contracts?  

BTW, wireless laptop cards are not a cheap ad-on contract [but the cards are cheap]. Check out any wireless service and you will see that they all gouge you for it, including tethering when available. It's heart breaking since many already have a data contract. I think they are terrible.

"While it is innovative, I wouldn't say it's the best. "

MS Voice Command has been around on Windows Mobile since 2003.

3 Megapixel cameras in cellphones exist since 2005.

Copy and Paste has been on Windows Mobile since 2002.

Tehthering has been there on Windows Mobile just as long.

Touchscreen Phones exist since 1992.

@mikegalosagainagan

"Note he refers to the chart as showing the growth and adoption of not the OS X family but of Mac OS X."

Well of course he does! At the time there was no "OS X family"

The chart is clearly labeled 2002 - 2007.

There was no iPhone or iPod Touch.

Mac OS X powered the growth

After 2007 you get your "OS X family" and the growth skyrocketed.

You see that's the whole point of that keynote segment. ie. We had pretty good growth with the Mac (and you can develop apps for that) but we have even better growth now that we sell iPhones and iPods(that you can also develop for).

There is nothing deceptive here. No one is pretending that iPods are desktop computers. No one is disputing Gartner's marketshare figures.

75 Million may be a drop in the bucket to the PC world or the cell phone world but it's a pretty big number to Apple, and it's a much more attractive target if you are a developer.

Defend? The only thing I am defending is logic.

I just watched the first few minutes of the keynote.

This is Mac marketing nonsense.

First they say it's "OS X users" @ 25 million.  Then they add iPod touch and iPhone users into the mix "over the past 2 years" to the figure to make it 75 million.

It's between 3:00 and ~4:15.

It's misleading to shareholders.  It isn't OS X.  It doesn't run OS X applications.  Nobody can misunderstand that, although their RDF is in full overdrive anyway.

Macbook Pro 15"?  No quad-core?  Hello???!

*YAWN*

There goes Grand Central Dispatch in the sh1tter.

Just so Windows users know:  There is NO possibility of running GeForce Boost on the Mac systems with 9400M chipsets.  The reason?  GeForce 9600 GPU's don't support it.  They only support Hybrid Power, which switches power load back to the in-built GPU when tasks allow.  It's pointless though, since the 9600 discrete graphics consume about the same amount of power as the 9400m when running light tasks.  Instead, it adds extra cost for the NVIDIA core logic over Intel.  An Intel PM45 chipset with a discrete 9600GT will cost less.

Firewire 800?  No eSATA?  LOL!!  *YAWN*

I can't even FIND a laptop that sells with a 160GB hard drive, unless it's a sub-$400US netbook too.  That's just sad.  The MacBook Air is the closest thing that Apple has to a netbook, except you'd have to be an airhead to pay that kind of money for that piece of garbage.

"Leopard is the most successful product [Apple] has ever sold"

WRONG!

I should go on to quote all the Mackies that Apple isn't a software company - they give it away with new computers....

Microsoft Office for Mac is the #1 software package that Apple sells - and they do that right on their own page.

I like when Craig Federighi shows up all his common windows, and on top of them all is a page from the NY Times with 2 big Bing banners.  :)

They even talk about complexity in Windows, and yet they have this "wall of icons" and talk about 1000's of projects.

Mmmmhhm....and I've got a bridge for you to buy, buddy!

The talk about 64-bit mode being 2x faster is also a laugh.  Any Intel engineer will tell you that.

It's clear that Mac's and OS X are just an afterthought for Apple.  ~60% of the keynote was a PR campaign and giant ad for the iPhone.

Just in case you missed this, the two blog posts before this Apple bashing at www.winsuperslant.com got a total of 24 posts.  They are about the xbox and zune.  How fitting.

The number of apps in the stores can be misleading, due to duplicate or those so close in function that there is almost no difference. I don't no much about the target for marketing, but it seems as if MS and RIM targeted business, while the iPhone targeted ordinary consumers. mAke no mistake that the boatload of WinMo apps are probably closer to the diversity, nonduplicate iPhone apps. In fact, there are many more things that WinMo can do more than the iPhone. I have posted about the medical stuff, so I won't bore you all again, but WinMo developers have been great form my business. Perhaps a more consumer oriented targeting is needed for RIM and WinMo, or it already has begun. The iPhone lead was overtaken by RIM last quarter, so it's anybodies game, and WinMo 7 hasn't even begun yet. With Win 7 and/or Xbox integration, it could be a game changer. Like someone already posted, perhaps Snow Leopard's pricing is related to fear of Win 7. It's never time to sit on their laurels.

"Copy and Paste has been on Windows Mobile since 2002."

It's been on "Windows Mobile" for longer actually - back when it was just "Pocket PC OS".  Prior to that, it was on HPC's with Windows CE (it's still in Windows CE of course though).

"This isn't shipments but actual active users." he is pointing out that Mac OS X is the only OS X based product being show on the graph and that that number is 25 million."

Ok, here's the big problem with all of it:

1)  He says there were "25 million active OS X users in 2007".

2)  He adds in another 50 million users over the last 2 years because of iPhone and iPod touch users.

3)  Later in the presentation, they say that 40 million **iPhone OS** (not "OS X", which would include Mac computers) devices have shipped in the last 2 years.

4)  25 million "active" users + 40 million devices shipped = 65 million combined users of OS X (ok, you have to discount the number of people switching away from OS X, but whatever, let's just go with that for arguments sake).

Ok, starting to see the problem here?  That means there were only an increase of 10 million active NON-iPhone OS computers....OVER THE LAST 2 YEARS.  That means they only increased the active user count by 5 million users each year for the past 2 years.  So that means they could've only sold a maximum of 5 million new Mac computers each year so long as you don't count people upgrading their own Mac within a 2 year time.  That actually makes it look like Apple's business is in repeat customers, not in switchers.

Now let's take a look at their sales figures over the last few quarters....

Anyone want to field that one?

LOL!

FYI:  Rogers is offering MMS at launch.

LOL@ teh americanos

;)

Not that it really matters to me, I just hate pompous jerks that like to force their opinion on everybody as if it is fact...kinda like our current president, you know the one that some are now calling God. Since mikegalos is either playing a word game with everybody or is a complete moron, or possibly both, see below...I have added some all cap text in brackets so that even he cannot lie about either his game or his denseness.

"This is a chart of OS X users in the first five full years of Mac OS X, 2002 to 2007. Great steady growth, adoption. Mac OS X. This isn't shipments but actual active users. Up to 25 million, but something incredible has happened over the last two years. To show you that I need to change the scale of the graph a bit. (Keynote: magic move) And this is what happened with iPhone, with iPod Touch we have tripled the number of active users of [NOTE THE OMISSION OF THE WORD MAC RIGHT HERE. MIKEGALOS, THIS IS FOR YOU]OS X across these products."

--tayme

@sharky - Now you are making sense...I have been saying that for some time now!!!

--tayme

"OS X across these products"

Except that the iPhone doesn't run OS X.  In fact, in the later slide, they refer to it as "iPhone OS", not "OS X".  It's deceit, plain and simple.

@tayme:

Care to address my question about the "Apple math", or "The case of the Mysteriously Disappearing Macs"?

(or "The iCon-game"?)

"That actually makes it look like Apple's business is in repeat customers, not in switchers."

Just to be clear, I should point out that "repeat customers" actually means mostly upgraders that are replacing systems, not people that buy additional ones - at least that's what the numbers show....that is, unless there are people that are (*shudder the thought*) moving away from OS X....

MikeGalos,

Still waiting for proof that MS created threads.

You may disagree with the links I posted, but they were using the term thread.  So maybe everyone is confused about processes and threads but you...I'm not, I'm just posting what I'm finding.  You haven't posted anything, only what you think you remember reading.

So...let's see....Do you agree or disagree that the authors of what I posted were using the term thread?  If you disagree, why?

"perhaps Snow Leopard's pricing is related to fear of Win 7. It's never time to sit on their laurels."

I'll wait for OS XI, thanks.

@Waethorn - "Care to address my question about the "Apple math", or "The case of the Mysteriously Disappearing Macs"?"

No, not really. I'm not disputing that...just mikegalos' obvious and bad attempt at deceit...he didn't think he would get caught...now maybe he will be silent for the rest of the night.

--tayme

@Waethorn - "Just to be clear, I should point out that "repeat customers" actually means mostly upgraders that are replacing systems..."

Isn't that the case with most OS purchases, regardless of vendor?

--tayme

tayme,

Since you are a fan of the last President I'll speak in short sentences. READ THE WHOLE QUOTE. NOT JUST THE BIT YOU CHOSE TO HILIGHT. SEE WHERE HE SAYS MAC OS X? GOOD. DONE. GOOD BYE.

I know. Reading a whole paragraph might be hard for you but you did manage to paste it in. (Obviously not on an iPhone)

panache

I've given you multiple cites. Deal with it.

@miguelgalos: "Unlike Apple, Microsoft doesn't charge for Service Packs that don't add features."

No, but like Apple they also charge for point upgrades. OS X Snow Leopard will be $29. How much for the 6.0 to 6.1 (Windows 7!) update be? Hundreds of dollars. The Microsoft tax at work.

Windows 7 doesn't add features either. Get your hearing and eyes checked, please.

"First, existing iPhone 3G customers cannot upgrade to a 3G S for $199 or $299. Those prices are for new customers only. You will pay $599 or $699. Yeah, really. "

Paying for a new product? Imagine that!

Talk about the rip-off that is a point upgrade for Windows 7? Mention that.

Mike you are wrong.

Waethorn

Well, the real "Case of the Mysteriously Disappearing Macs" will happen in the Fall when all those people who bought PPC Macs (like those who spent $6,000 on a Power Mac G5 in Summer 2006) because they were "so much better than Wintel machines" find out they can't run OS X 10.7 and that their fearless leader has abandoned their investment in "the best computer in the world" after only a few years.

Of course, they'll say "OS X 10.6 continues to be supported" and "if it worked yesterday, Snow Leopard didn't make it suddenly less useful", but deep down they'll know better.

(If you want to see something amusing, look at the people trying to dump PPC based Macs at a premium out on ebay in hopes of getting out of PPC before people realize it has the same future as an analog TV antenna)

To make it even easier for mikegalos, I have broken the paragraph down into sections - he must not be too good at reading comprehension...or listening. But, he is good at stroking his own ego.

"This is a chart of OS X users in the first five full years of Mac OS X [THIS PART IS TALKING ABOUT 2002 to 2007 AS HE IS ABOUT TO SEE, THAT IS THE MAC OS X PART],

2002 to 2007. Great steady growth, adoption. Mac OS X[STILL TALKING ABOUT PRE-iPHONE HERE].

This isn't shipments but actual active users. Up to 25 million, but something incredible has happened over the last two years. To show you that I need to change the scale of the graph a bit. (Keynote: magic move) And this is what happened with iPhone, with iPod Touch we have tripled the number of active users of OS X across these products." [NO USE OF THE WORD MAC IN THIS SECTION]

--tayme

PS - I'll be waiting on the obvious and juvenile references to a certain part of my opening paragraph from the usual 2 posters that seem to have a 7th grade sense of humor.

MikeGalos,

Actually, you have given me "two sites".  If by sites you mean "check out the book "Inside OS|2"

and then a second time mentioning the same book.

Not a single website that corroborates your ridiculous assertion.

Thanks for playing though!  I know playing with the beard all day gets boring so you need to try to confuse people on this site....for some reason.

Tayme,

MikeGalos doesn't stroke his ego.  He strokes his...............

BEARD!

LOL!

tayme

Breaking the patter up into chunks doesn't mean it magically becomes a different chart. He said the chart showed steady Mac OS X growth and adoption.

It didn't.

He lied.

Deal with it.

"Isn't that the case with most OS purchases, regardless of vendor?"

No, since I know lots of customers that have only recently bought their second, third, fourth, even fifth PC in their home.  None of those people were Mac users though.

My argument still stands though if someone wants to try to play with the numbers.  Apple is barking up the wrong tree - they're playing the ad's to the wrong crowd.  The numbers show that the ad's aren't getting enough people to switch - just holding on to the customers that they already have.

Now who was it that said that the ad's are not conveying an elitist message?  Let the numbers show the proof to the contrary.

"PPC Macs (like those who spent $6,000 on a Power Mac G5 in Summer 2006) because they were "so much better than Wintel machines" find out they can't run OS X 10.7

Of course, they'll say "OS X 10.6 continues to be supported" and "if it worked yesterday, Snow Leopard didn't make it suddenly less useful", but deep down they'll know better."

10.7?  Don't you mean 10.6?  ie. Snow Leopard?

Snow Leopard doesn't run on PPC machines.

You're either jumping the gun with a typo, or you're giving Apple more credit than is due.  ;)

"If you want to see something amusing, look at the people trying to dump PPC based Macs at a premium out on ebay in hopes of getting out of PPC before people realize it has the same future as an analog TV antenna"

....or in Canada, we call that waste of money, piece of junk TV technology that nobody uses "TiVo".  (or "AppleTV", if you like)

@rj: "Windows 7 doesn't add features either."

You obviously have no clue about Windows 7 then.  There are some quite key new features that Windows 7 provides support with: Direct Access and Branch Cache (both with Windows 2008 R2).  I don't comment on SL's 'features' because I don't know much about SL.  Maybe you could learn how to keep your mouth shut as well rather than making yourself look stupid!

Of course, you are so ridiculously biased against Microsoft that you can't actually see the positives that they have done (and there have been many, just like the iPhone is a positive from Apple).  I do wonder what happened to you when you were young(er) that caused all reason to leave your brain.

panache

I said cites not sites. Short for citations. You know, what people did for documentation back in the 1980s which is what we're discussing.

I was there, you weren't.

I provided citations for the creation of what we now call "threads" You didn't.

Feel free to provide a citation earler than 1987 describing what we now refer to as a thread. You haven't yet. You've just provided citations that include earlier use of the term as a synonym for process.

Here's a hint. Look at some Unix books from the1990s. Unix fanbois (yes, they did exist) spent a lot of time back then explaining how that new "thread" thing was bad and that nobody should use it instead of traditional expensive processes. (Oddly, Unix had full processes at the time but no threads. I wonder what drove their conclusion?)

@mikegalos - You are so wrong...and the funny thing is, I think that you believe yourself. Using your logic, if I was to produce a chart showing growth in usage from Windows 3.1 to Windows Vista, and projecting the growth that 7 will bring, starting out using the term Windows 3.1, but changing it to just Windows later in the presentation of the information, I would be lying if I said that I wasn't saying that Windows 3.1 is the same as Windows 7...right? Otherwise, your position on the chart at WWDC is as one sided as I think it is.

--tayme

Waethorn

You're right. I got a point release ahead of them.

It should read:

Well, the real "Case of the Mysteriously Disappearing Macs" will happen in the Fall when all those people who bought PPC Macs (like those who spent $6,000 on a Power Mac G5 in Summer 2006) because they were "so much better than Wintel machines" find out they can't run OS X 10.6 and that their fearless leader has abandoned their investment in "the best computer in the world" after only a few years.

Of course, they'll say "OS X 10.5 continues to be supported" and "if it worked yesterday, Snow Leopard didn't make it suddenly less useful", but deep down they'll know better.

(If you want to see something amusing, look at the people trying to dump PPC based Macs at a premium out on ebay in hopes of getting out of PPC before people realize it has the same future as an analog TV antenna)

MikeGalos,

You are right, I did misread what you said and thought you said "site", not "cite".

But there is no need for your usually arrogace, I damn well know what a citation is.

Not to mention, I did provide "cites", you just dislike them and dismiss them.

You haven't provided me any concrete "cites"...just what you remember reading.

Give me a break.

www.wmexperts.com/lies-damn-lies-statistics-and-apple

MikeGalos,

Finally, this is the end of the argument...here is your exact quote

"You see threads (also known as lightweight processes) were created by IBM and Microsoft in 1987 for OS|2 1.0 as an improvement on the costly Unix requirement of having every new task require a full heavyweight process."

First off, a thread and a lightweight process are NOT the same thing...Do threads on Windows get their own PID?  Ok, so you might have been there, but you clearly are mistaken.

Secondly, you are now asking me to "Feel free to provide a citation earler than 1987 describing what we now refer to as a thread"

yet, I KEEP DOING THAT, and you keep saying "nope, not what I'm looking for"

here is ANOTHER QUOTE

"The concept of multithreaded programming goes back to at least the 1960s"

Note MikeGalos, they didn't say "multi-process programming"

from this link

docs.sun.com/.../6i5ur8qa7

Show me QUOTES from your "cite"..not just "it's what I read...don't remember which lab, IBM or MS it came out of"

@ Mike

Please show where Schiller showed a graph that included both Mac OS X sales combined with iPhone and iPod touch sales and said that it shows steady Mac OS X growth and adoption. Should be pretty easy right? Just zip on over to here:

events.apple.com.edgesuite.net/.../index.html

Watch the video and just tell all all the time stamp at which this happened.

Hi new here in regards to never posting.  Long time reader, of lots of Pauls stuff over my 20 years in IT.

Your comments today Paul will probably change that for me.

Seriously the upgrade issues you try to raise is pure BS.  If you had any free phone you got for signing up with ATT and you were still under the contract, you would be charged the non-incentive price.  It does only apply to to current iPhone users.  Anyone should know this.

I have ingnored your borderline bias in the past but you can tell that Apple gets under the skin for you and its almost kind of sad.  Its turned you blog into a laughing stock of bi-polar, shody journalism.

Mike Galos, you win already.  Not because you are right, but because you just need to stop.  You are making your self look like a total fool.  You have become the village idiot here at this blog.  You have a massive following, and its not a postive one.  There must be more to life than you trying to convice people you are right in this utterly non-important spot on the internet??

Waethorn

Schiller's total chart didn't really go to 75M, more like 73M.

73M - 25M - 40M = 8M total Mac OS X growth over 2 years.

That's less than 15% growth.

Not enough to move out of that same 2.X% boutique market niche that Apple's been holding for years now.

(Paul's analysis assumed the overall PC market was still at the year old 1B mark but it's grown in a year and even with the current economy, Gartner says it'll be at 1.25B by end of CY09)

As Paul said yesterday about Schiller's boast that  "No wonder everyone is trying to follow in our footsteps", Right.

Now add in the stall Apple will get when:

* Snow Leopard ships with no new end user features to drive new Macintosh sales

* PPC Mac users realize they own abandonware and start looking for alternatives

* A slow economy makes it hard to sell computers that cost 2x-3x as much even with pretty cases

* The new Macintosh line doesn't offer anything compelling (really, case manufacturing tech as a feature? Sealed batteries?)

* Apple abandons the Mac Book (non-Pro) line except for one "I didn't buy a real Mac" model that looks so different it's a negative status symbol

* All the new features in Windows 7 drive Windows based PC sales

We may see the Macintosh installed base drop below the 2.0% mark by next WWDC.

MikeGalos,

All the new features in Windows 7 that drive Windows based PC sales....which would those be?

The new dock?

Aero Snaps?

Gadgets that aren't stuck in the sidebar?

Or maybe is it the monopoly that Microsoft has on desktop operating systems?

HMMMMMMM.

Honestly though, if I do decide to upgrade my laptop to a Core 2 Duo, I'd definitely buy Windows 7....but not because of "all the new features of Windows 7"....but for my own personal reasons.

Wae,

Did you REALLY say

"I'll wait for OS XI, thanks."

LOL!  Come on man!  Even if OS XI is what they call it eventually, you wouldn't get it.  You don't like Apple!

Nice to see that mikegalos has finally figured out that he is wrong...and in his usual fashion, changes the tone of his argument to now say "Well, whatever it is, its still only 15% growth and that only amounts to 2% market niche." That was classic mikegalos, right there...it used to be entertaining, now its boring.

--tayme

rr0de74@live.com...wow.

In 2008, Windows Mobile had 18 million users (I'm not sure if that's the total base). Today, Windows has a user base of over 1 billion. That's what mike means, I guess.

You have to love  Apple going after Microsoft on price point too. Showing up Windows 7 as being a bloated, expensive, operating system point upgrade. Nothing much for a lot of money. Where as Apple deliver for their loyal customers for just $29.

@miguelgalos keeps on harping about economy. That's one example where Microsoft's tax is hitting people in the hip pocket.

@miguelgalos' brainwashing and re-programming at Microsoft has gone too far. He's lost the plot. a la SuperSite for "Windows".

tayme

Wierd that you think somebody not contining to say over and over and over again is "they figured out they were wrong"

You must think you win a lot just by claiming victory when people leave.

shark47

That would be an equivalent example of deceptive marketing.

Ocean

To add to the Apple Keynote Deception List, turns out Safari 4 isn't "the fastest" even on the test Apple cited.

blogs.zdnet.com/hardware

Panache

"All the new features in Windows 7 that drive Windows based PC sales....which would those be?"

Well, Paul has an entire section of the Windows SuperSite dedicate to that. I'd suggest you read it since you obviously prefer talking before understand and speaking from knowledge might be a nice change for you.

btw: I get the idiotic beard responses from my fan club but what's with the "miguel"? Just bashing Hispanics because if you associate something with me your animosity towards me rubs off? Or is it meant to be a compliment? That one does confuse me.

btw: Galos in my case isn't Hispanic or Greek or Phillipino (common questions) but Hungarian.

@miguelgalos: Don't over-analyse it. You refer to me as bobbyjo, when I am clearly roberts. So, I took mike and changed it to miguel. Same name, in Spanish. You took roberts and changed it to bobby.

Don't get your nickers in a knot and bring out the race card. Overly PC (politically correct, not Personal Computer) people are some of the most obnoxious on the planet. Don't go down that route. And BTW, I am of Hispanic origin. So I can make fun of my own kind as much as I like. Thanks. :)

I still laugh at the notion that people are going to freak out because Snow Leopard will not support PPC and that all og us who spent thousands of dollars back in 2005 and 2006 will be pissed off because we're being "dumped" by Apple.

What a joke.

I've mentioned in here before how my Powerbook G4 is still running strong to this day. It's still my main home computer. Since I bought it I've watched my wife go though countless Windows laptops (Acer, HP, and Toshiba) and have had to repair, in some way shape or form, friends and families Windows computers (and ALL but ONE of them have insisted that they stay on XP).

My brother in law got so damn fed up with his Windows based computers he trashed his last one about a year ago and bought a Mac Book. To this day the only thing that he's had to have fixed/replaced was the hard drive ... and that's because he dropped the laptop.

You can piss and moan all you want, but the truth is Apple makes fantastic stuff. This aging Powerbook has more than paid for itself over the years and is still running strong and will have a home on my desk until it simply will not run *anything* (or not run at all).

Will I get mad that I won't be able to run Snow Leopard on it? Nope. Just like I'm not mad at Adobe for dropping PPC support in CS4 leaving me to stick with CS3 for the time being.

I will be purchasing a new MacBook Pro in the next couple of months (new job requires it) and I'll upgrade that when 10.6 comes out (and finally get to make use of the CS4 suite I have sitting on my office shelf - yeah, I bought it even though I knew it didn't support PPC at all. I'm a sucker for business discounts).

In the end, whatever. I'm still amused by the far reaches of crazy on both sides of the fence. Mikegalos and Waethorn on one side and robertsjoe on the other. You all need hobbies outside of this site.

Well, maybe not. Where would I get my entertainment from?

... 181 entries at my time of posting. New record? Apple should find a way to count these numbers for key note speeches:

"Mac OS X causes 60% more flame wars on Paul Thurrott's blog than Windows 7 and Vista combined!"

- Applause from crowd.

Actually I take that back.

Mikegalos... five posts in a row. Wow. YOU need a hobby outside of this site.

BobbyJo

"Don't get your nickers in a knot "

I didn't. That's why I asked rather than making blind assumptions.

"Mikegalos... five posts in a row. Wow. YOU need a hobby outside of this site."

Or Microsoft needs to hire him back. Clearly, he has too much time on his hands since he got canned.

@mike galos

"He lied"

Why? To imply that all 75 million users... are using Macs?

Microsoft, and in this case Bing, is really a laughing stock in the industry

searchengineland.com/schmidt-bing-cant-buy-love-20762

"They do this (release a new search engine) about once a year"

That's right.

I think Microsoft will be very busy now that they have a re-branded search engine (because that's essentially all it is) and copying Google Wave. Now there's some innovation. Something for Microsoft to copy.

I have a iPhone as personal phone and Verizon HTC Touch Pro from work (had Touch before and the Samsung i760 before that all WinMo).

After 4 months I have now forwarded my calls to the iPhone and setup my work Exchange email on it.

I stopped bothering with the Touch Pro.

Its the best WinMo phone and a major step up from the the first Samsung I started with.

But the iPhone is so easy to use and intuitive.

I really want more competition to push Apple to keep on the innovative edge.

I will wait for Verizon to get the Palm Pre and let my company pick it up so I can play with it.

But we may be on AT&T by then since every doctor has an iPhone now and the execs keep bugging us to offer the iPhone as a corporate device...we have started negotiations with AT&T.

to give them our wireless biz.

"Now add in the stall Apple will get when:

* Snow Leopard ships with no new end user features to drive new Macintosh sales"

Usability and speed obviously are no features to a tech guy such as yourself, but those are the ones that Microsoft is also relying on with Windows 7. Unfortunately that's not enough, and they also have to make it even more complicated to people by changing their user interface for the sake of change. In the process, they're the ones who continue to provide the most compelling reasons to switch to Macs.

"* PPC Mac users realize they own abandonware and start looking for alternatives"

They also realize they haven't upgraded in years and years, which means they're not likely to even have upgraded to Leopard. So they'll go to a store and buy a new Mac.

"* A slow economy makes it hard to sell computers that cost 2x-3x as much even with pretty cases"

There's no indication of this whatsoever so far, please bring on the evidence if you have it. If anything it seems quite the contrary at the moment.

"* The new Macintosh line doesn't offer anything compelling (really, case manufacturing tech as a feature? Sealed batteries?)"

How about battery life? Cheaper prices? Anyway, the decision to put firewire on the 13" model was a dealbreaker for me.

"* Apple abandons the Mac Book (non-Pro) line except for one "I didn't buy a real Mac" model that looks so different it's a negative status symbol"

Are you trying to imply that you're an expert on fashion now?

"* All the new features in Windows 7 drive Windows based PC sales"

Besides (as well as including) the ones that OS X has had for years, there's no compelling new features in Windows 7 - unless you count annoying user interface changes.

But there's something that seems to be driving PC sales in the graphic design community, I have to admit. Even I am looking to buy a cheap netbook so I can test my sites in the broken browser that is IE, at least until it's dead. Hopefully soon.

"We may see the Macintosh installed base drop below the 2.0% mark by next WWDC."

Will the Windows market share also continue to slide? My sources say yes, yes they will.

See you this time next year!

Mum

"See you this time next year!"

Promise you'll stay away that long?

"Promise you'll stay away that long?"

No, I'll just continue ignoring trolling and stupidity until then.

@mikegalos - I don't look at it as win/lose. It's weird that you do, though. It does, however explain a few things about you. Lets see if Paul can find a way to rile up the community today or if this is one of his "cool down" days that usually follow a big mikegalos post-a-thon.

--tayme

I guess someone is gonna start the next thread with a comment about how mikegalos will be the first to comment about Apple. There will be another one that compares MS unfavorably to Apple, using mikegalos' expected remarks about Apple as an excuse. There will probably be a third that bashes mikegalos for his views about Apple. A fourth about his beard. And so on...

All this, before mikegalos makes his first comment.

Same with Paul. People keep complaining about how biased he is and how they would like to ignore him. Well, if you want to ignore someone, ignore them. Don't just talk about ignoring them. There's a reason robertsjoe doesn't get much on anyone's nerves - people don't engage him that much.

"All this, before mikegalos makes his first comment."  

Lets see if that is true.  You could certainly go back and see.  I bet you would find that Mike makes some negative comparison with Apple or its products long before anyone does.

My prediction is that Paul will post some actual Windows news for a few posts in a professional way that wont get many comments and then he will talk some Apple trash to get some posts.

@shark  here is a perfect example of Mike and his Apple problem.

community.winsupersite.com/.../proof-that-project-natal-won-t-work-as-advertised.aspx

Mike is clearly the first one to bring Apple into the discussion and in a negative way.  This is black and white proof of his mental illness.

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"Mikegalos... five posts in a row. Wow. YOU need a hobby outside of this site."

Hmm, in this thread, you could replace with Mikegalos with quite a few other posters here and you could say the same thing.

"I guess someone is gonna start the next thread with a comment about how mikegalos will be the first to comment about Apple. There will be another one that compares MS unfavorably to Apple, using mikegalos' expected remarks about Apple as an excuse. There will probably be a third that bashes mikegalos for his views about Apple. A fourth about his beard. And so on..."

Hmm, seems like Deja Vu all over again.

@sharky - I don't see that. In fact, in this thread the first post mentioning mikegalos was nearly 30 minutes after his first 2 posts...which actually were not that bad. It got really bad after mikegalos started playing his dishonest little word game regarding Mac OS X transitioning to OS X.

--tayme

But really - is it healthy to despise a company so much? That is just being simple minded.

--tayme

Paul,

The information on ths blog post is half incorrect.

Here are my sources.

www.att.com/.../press-room

Upgrade Price: $399 (16GB) and $499 (32GB)

MMS will be available late summer.

www.wireless.att.com/iphone

Scroll down to messages.

Did you see the same WWDC keynote that I did. I may not like Apple's marketing, but lying about services that will be offered is truely disappointing and shameful. Looks like I'll be visiting Ars and ZDnet more of then than here. This really compromises your integrity and you should apologize to users for your mistakes or choice to display false information.

Paul is a LIAR!

This is libel!

"This is black and white proof of his mental illness."

That's pretty harsh. He's a hater, just as some people are fanbois. The same goes for Paul.

@tayme, who cares who created threads. Really. At this point, it really doesn't matter. I don't understand why that argument has to span three comment threads. If Microsoft did create threads, it probably adds a little more proof to suggest that Microsoft is one of the most innovative companies out there. If not, it doesn't really hurt Microsoft's reputation. Someone needs to back down, but no one will. It's not mike alone.

"Mike is clearly the first one to bring Apple into the discussion and in a negative way.  This is black and white proof of his mental illness."

Considering that there are a lot of people that bring Microsoft into the discussion in a very negative way too, I guess most people here are deranged.

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