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The EU should go to hell. Honestly, they just hate the idea of profit. In fact, they are profit & business killers with their massive tax takes from Microsoft and Intel.

A modern OS cannot be sold with a browser - what is this world coming to? Like the previous failed N versions of XP, consumers will not buy it. The EU Commission obviously lives in a parallel universe to the people it claims to represent. It is simply a de facto protector of subpar competitors who think competition is about whingeing to a regulator. What a joke.

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So how would that make people adopt a different browser without having a browser to get different browser?

Also, does anyone know any accurate measurements of the market shares that each browser has at the moment?

Robert,

You have it wrong. They don't hate profit. They just like the idea of an EU member produced product getting an edge. They'd be quite happy with Opera Software ASA making a profit.

As with many recent suits about "anti-competitive" behavior, the issue isn't the benefit of the consumer, it's the benefit of the non-competitive corporation. If the consumer is harmed (as with the N and E versions of Windows) to help a corporation that can't produce a viable product, that's the price they're willing to have their citizens pay for keeping that constituant's corporation profitable.

Now we shall see Opera's marketshare go through the roof.

"The EU should go to hell. Honestly, they just hate the idea of profit. In fact, they are profit & business killers with their massive tax takes from Microsoft and Intel."

What are you talking about? All the major innovation in the world happens in the EU countries. What has the US contributed in the last 10 years? </sarcasm>

What isn't clear is whether Microsoft is completely removing all the IE bits from the ISO or just removing the IE GUI as an application in the default install. Microsoft has already made it possible to uninstall the IE application from the installed features list.

While on the topic of web browsers, I'm trying out Safari 4 for Windows for the past few days. (something has broke my IE)

I'm quite happy with Safari with the new look it has. I much prefer it Firefox or Chrome. Though, it does suffer from the odd crash every now and again. I'm sure that will be fixed eventually. I highly recommend people to try.

In other IE 8 related news, Microsoft is donating 8 meals to Feeding America (http://www.FeedingAmerica.org) for every copy of IE 8 downloaded from the Browser for the Better site from June 8, 2009 through August 8, 2009.

See: www.browserforthebetter.com

Anybody want to bet that nest the EU will say that still isn't  good enough and tell Microsoft that they need to add some sort of vehicle for the users to easily select the browser of thier choice, download it, and install it?

--tayme

The whole thing's idiotic.  Why stop at browsers and media players?  How about email clients.  Shouldn't consumers have the choice of email clients?  That shouldn't be part of the operating system, right?

Morons.

WebGuy

Why do you think they'd stop at email clients? <sarcasm>Why should the consumer have to use the Windows thread manager or the Windows virtual memory manager. Why, Microsoft should just ship an empty package and let the consumer pick each of the thousands of components that support all the APIs.</sarcasm>

Mind bogglingly, that's not too far from what one "expert" suggested in his testimony at the DOJ hearings. He actually DID suggest that the only thing that should be sold in an "Operating System Product" was the bare microkernal and that window management, graphics engine, GUI and even memory, security and process management should be options left up to the consumer.

And he was a DOJ "expert witness" in operating systems.

webguy, the email client has already been stripped out of Win7.

But, back to the main point, this is just fracking insane.

How are private system builders meant to get their hands on any browser now?

Thanks, EU, for pissing off your people AGAIN.

I am sick and tired of the EU meddling about in our lives - ever since the UK joined (and before, honestly) they have had more power than sense should allow over our day to day matters.

MikeGalos, was that guy, by any chance, a Linux die-hard?

I've seen presentations of fairly interesting tech, which have been let down by rabid anti-microsoft comments.

Any person who has such innate hate for another company's products should not be allowed in a decision making role.

I mean, I can understand not liking, or not approving - fair enough, but some go out of their way to shout line after line of hate.

If they were referring to a racial or social minority they would have been arrested.

"He actually DID suggest that the only thing that should be sold in an "Operating System Product" was the bare microkernal and that window management, graphics engine, GUI and even memory, security and process management should be options left up to the consumer."

By the time the EC is done with Microsoft, it looks like that's what Windows will be.

I think Microsoft is making a very smart move into making its operating system as marketable as possible in Europe. It is sad that the UE won't allow IE8 with Windows 7.

I believe Microsoft's solution to the problem will overall help make windows 7 the most sold and used operating system throughout the world.

Mike,

The Windows Thread Manager is a critical part of the operating system.  The Browser isn't....You could still use the computer WITHOUT the browser...although you may not want to, that's a whole different story.

And it would be nice if I got to choose my Windowing Manager...in THEORY.  I think the Windows windowing manager does an OK job..it definitely does the trick

No longer directed towards Mike...

And once again isn't the about BUNDLING the OS and the Browser together?  Not that MS was providing a browser, but that it was intimately tied into the OS?

I haven't tried it in Vista or in 7, but if I open an Explorer window, and type in something like "http://www.winsupersite.com" does it use IE (not the process, but the components) to browse to the site?

Not saying I think it's right or wrong..just saying....

Ok, I'll go on the record.  I think that the whole bundling of IE into Windows was actually a good idea.  I remember the first time I typed in a URL into an Explorer window and the window morphed into an IE window, all while still running in explorer.exe...I thought it was so cool and such a great idea.

gorath

Actually he's a very well known Computer Science professor. The key point not being that there are bozos out there but that of all the experts that could have been picked, he was the one the DOJ did pick to teach the court how operating system products should be sold.

Shark

"By the time the EC is done with Microsoft, it looks like that's what Windows will be."

Nah. Just the versions legally sold in EU member nations.

I'd imagine the result would be a very big growth in tourism to non-EU nations right after that (and a surprising increase in Windows sales in some neighboring countries that somehow exceed their total PC installed base)

The problem with this is of course, Europe and Korea.  

For anybody complaining about the many different versions of Windows, if Microsoft didn't have to make the N, K, KN, and now the E versions, we'd have far fewer versions of Windows to choose from.

At least this will prevent them from having to bundle unnecessary third-party garbage (ie. Opera and Chrome) with Windows.

"Why stop at browsers and media players?  How about email clients.  Shouldn't consumers have the choice of email clients?  That shouldn't be part of the operating system, right?"

Actually, that's already the way Windows 7 is designed.  It has no email client bundled with it.  Instead Windows Live Mail is available via download.

I'd have to say, that the moment someone with a shell replacement starts lobbying the EU, Windows won't be Windows anymore.

Once major manufacturers like Dell and HP start installing Windows Live software and other packages from Microsoft anyway (Dell already does and HP is starting to), it'll make all of the plaintiffs like like a bunch of crybaby sissies.

What do you want to bet that if companies like Symantec and McAfee were European-based, you'd suddenly see some action against the anti-virus thingie mentioned in the earlier post?

panache,

"I haven't tried it in Vista or in 7, but if I open an Explorer window, and type in something like "http://www.winsupersite.com" does it use IE (not the process, but the components) to browse to the site?"

Nope. It doesn't do that any more.

It spawns off a copy of whatever you have installed as your default browser and passes the URL over to it.

This actually may be a good move for Microsoft, in that it won't let the not-so-great IE8 bring down the good impressions of Windows 7.

One of the side effects of this is more crapware.

In any case, if OEMs get to choose which browser to bundle, Firefox might end up a big loser. Google and Microsoft have more money and can negotiate deals with OEMs to get their browser onto PCs. I doubt that this will increase Opera's marketshare in the long run, which is what this entire investigation was all about.

@ Panache - Windows 7 just opens up whatever default browser you've chosen. So if you've got Firefox selected as your default browser, then typing www.google.com in windows explorer will open up a new firefox window (or tab) and navigate to that adress.

This also happens in Vista, and in XP since IE7.

panache

"The Windows Thread Manager is a critical part of the operating system."

He'd argue that having a thread manager is optional (you could go single threaded and single tasking and make the rest optional and it would still be an OS) The fact that every software product would have to come in an almost infinite number of combinations to support all the possible configurations of underlying OS services wasn't seen as, apparently, a problem that needed to be solved in whatever universe he was testifying from.

Opera is an innovative browser. Wasn't Opera the first browser to use tabs? And I think it has brought new things to the browser playground but the cold reality is that people aren't interested in the browser.

Firefox is the second-most used browser in Windows (I think), not Opera. Those that switched to Firefox surely knew about Opera, but decided to go with another browser.

I have tried Opera but didn't like. I went back to IE8. Mozilla with all its whining about Microsoft lost me as a potential user of its browser. Google is also on the same whine cruise that Opera and Mozilla are in, but I do like Chrome.

"If the consumer is harmed (as with the N and E versions of Windows) to help a corporation that can't produce a viable product, that's the price they're willing to have their citizens pay for keeping that constituant's corporation profitable."

I guess that's solves the question as to who pays more taxes in Europe:  consumers or businesses.

"How are private system builders meant to get their hands on any browser now?"

They can sign up to Microsoft's OEM System Builder program to download OEM packages for components like Windows Live and such.  It's free to sign up.

"I am sick and tired of the EU meddling about in our lives - ever since the UK joined (and before, honestly) they have had more power than sense should allow over our day to day matters."

Since the execution of Hussein, and the fall of Bush, there's gotta be at least one oppressive governing empire left in the world....  ;)

"He actually DID suggest that the only thing that should be sold in an "Operating System Product" was the bare microkernal and that window management, graphics engine, GUI and even memory, security and process management should be options left up to the consumer."

"By the time the EC is done with Microsoft, it looks like that's what Windows will be."

Consumers will be taken back to the "stone age of computers" by the EU.

"I haven't tried it in Vista or in 7, but if I open an Explorer window, and type in something like "http://www.winsupersite.com" does it use IE (not the process, but the components) to browse to the site?"

It's a separate process.  It has been since IE7 on XP.  Typing a link just opens your default browser.  IE6 was integrated though.

"I remember the first time I typed in a URL into an Explorer window and the window morphed into an IE window, all while still running in explorer.exe...I thought it was so cool and such a great idea."

That's part of why Windows XP was a major security disaster after launch.  It started back with Windows 95, IE4, and the Active Desktop pack (which integrated IE and Windows Explorer).

Nice idea.  But it doesn't work in the real world.  

If Windows doesn't come with a browser, and OS X does, is Apple competing unfairly by including something the other is not allowed to have?

Perhaps Apple, MS, all the millions of Linux makers.. should provided completely stripped down OSes for the EU, the only program included being a client produced by the EU that lists every possible browser, e-mail client, media client, and after clicking and selecting which ones you want will download and install them... That way all is fair for everyone, and everyone in the EU is unhappy as they now have a bunch of work to do before they can use their new system.... If one company can't included something NO company should... and when it comes to a browser, eeks. How about a situation where you boot up IE pops up with a page with several alternate browsers, if you choose to install a different one it installs it then goes "Now that you have installed a browser IE8 will uninstall unless you wish to keep it"  

The EU is just getting silly

Quick trivia question:  Did IE6 SP2 (in XP SP2) isolate IE processes from Windows Explorer processes, or was it still integrated?  I know it was integrated pre-SP2.

Hang on, does this not set a precedent that all other OS distributions must ALSO be shipped without browsers?

How can it possibly be one rule for one, another for all others?

Does Apple now have to ship Snow Leopard without a browser? Does Ubuntu (and Lindows, Mint, RedHat, etc etc etc) have to ship their next version without firefox?

What about the various distros of Unix?

At least in Debian-based Linux, you can use apt-get to download and install a broswer

Everyone else is screwed by this decision. ESPECIALLY the constituents of the EU

@ Waethorn...

""How are private system builders meant to get their hands on any browser now?"

They can sign up to Microsoft's OEM System Builder program to download OEM packages for components like Windows Live and such.  It's free to sign up."

I realise that, Wae, but I was thinking about hobbyist builders, who build their own machines.

If Apple doesn;t have to comply with this crap, then they're bound to get more converts.

Who would buy a windows box that can't get online, instead of a mac that can?

This balance NEEDS to be sorted

Man, I'm freaking steaming right now. I honestly can't believe they've done this.

WANKERS

@gorath:

"Hang on, does this not set a precedent that all other OS distributions must ALSO be shipped without browsers?

How can it possibly be one rule for one, another for all others?"

As someone around here is fond of pointing out, when you have a monopoly, you have to play by a different set of rules then when you don't.  Simple as that.

lets see them say Itunes can't be bundled with a new Mac.....

Logically it only makes sense that if Microsoft can't ship their Operating System with their browser, then Apple shouldn't be allowed to do the same.

But ... I'm wondering if Microsoft's monopolistic behavior in the past might be cause for this?

"I realise that, Wae, but I was thinking about hobbyist builders, who build their own machines."

Well 2 things:

1)  They have to buy retail software for their own use.

- or -

2)  They can sign up as a business and buy OEM packaged software from an Authorized Microsoft Distributor, and get support and downloads from Microsoft via the OEM System Builder webpage, but under the terms of use, they are required to sell any systems that they build with OEM software.

I'm sure 7E will sell just as many copys as VistaN or XPN.  However many people are in the EU.  So I guess what........ 10 copys?

Waethorn, even if they buy a retail copy of windows, they STILL don't get a browser.

Quit being a jackass.

@scottbakertemp :

The difference is, windows "N" editions were optional - and very very few people bothered with them - or even knew about them.

These "E" versions are the ONLY versions of windows 7 we'll be able to buy, OEM or retail

GODDAMIT

Microsoft should send a bill to the EU for extra costs associated with engineering a different version.

I suppose MS could simply make IE8 an optional Windows Update component for those who want it in the E version. At least it'd be readily obtainable. (but I guess they'd rather do their little "Pack") This goes without saying that the entire EU proceeding has been utterly ludicrous.

....nail the bill right on the creaky wooden doors of the EU HQ (ala Martin Luther).

scottbakertemp

The difference is that the N versions were sold alongside the non-N versions so the consumers had a choice if they didn't want to be "protected". In this case, the "No IE" version would be the only version sold in the EU.

I'd expect a very high percentage of users would get the "IE 8 add-on pack" and virtually no OEM would send a computer out the door without it so the end result might be the same except for the inconvenience.

Insane. A web browser is an absolutely critical part of the computing experience these days. Also, anyone with the slightest bit of computing knowledge can easily go online using IE and find Firefox or whatever.

As some other have said, why aren't these stupid regulators going after Apple? They bundle all kinds of stuff with OSX. Why don't they have to drop Safari and iLife? iLife should be regarded as particularly egregious if bundling software is monopolistic. Its a total double standard. Apple's business practices are infinitely more monopolistic than Microsoft's, and yet Microsoft is the company that governments constantly demonize.

I agree with Waethorn that Microsoft should send the bill to the EU.

"Waethorn, even if they buy a retail copy of windows, they STILL don't get a browser."

And retail sales are extremely low.

You're talking about a niche market here, much like how Opera is making their argument.

Obviously this is a fairly new situation, so I'm guessing Microsoft will probably put something like FTM into Windows so that users have some way of downloading IE.

If they have to charge users extra for an additional CD purchase with IE on it, they should do it.  AND they should explain the situation and let consumers decide what to do about the EU.  The EU talks about giving consumers a choice here, so if Microsoft wants to rally consumers behind them against the EU's restrictions, then I say let them.

"The difference is, windows "N" editions were optional - and very very few people bothered with them - or even knew about them.

These "E" versions are the ONLY versions of windows 7 we'll be able to buy, OEM or retail

GODDAMIT

"

They can make it available as part of Windows Update.

I think Microsoft did this to avoid having to delay the Win 7 release in Europe.

"Microsoft is the company that governments constantly demonize."

Alternatively, it's also the operating system that most governments choose too.

At least you can say that Microsoft is listening to customers.  Although to use an old adage: you can't please everyone.

Wae, windows retails sales are small, but significant numbers.

but regardless, most hobbyist builders buy OEM disks (although I honestly don't know what the legal status of that is in the UK - as far as I know, it's all above board - if you buy it with system-level components)

Shark, if they make it available by windows update, they'll probably get slammed for that too, because it's not actually updating anything currently on the machine.

Wae, shove over and make some room, I'm coming to Canada, I've had enough of Europe (and I hear the mountain biking is awesome on the west coast)

;)

There will be doubters to Ropp, who wrote: "Apple's business practices are infinitely more monopolistic than Microsoft's.

Well, here are some examples:

- Paul wrote earlier this year that Apple rejected Opera for the iPhone (the fact that Opera didn't actually submit it to Apple shouldn't matter here)

- There's been a lot of talk of how Apple is going to sue Palm for Pre's multi-touch

- There's been lots of chatter of how Apple's going to break Pre's sync with iTunes.

I'm sure there are infinitely more examples.

"although I honestly don't know what the legal status of that is in the UK - as far as I know, it's all above board - if you buy it with system-level components"

It isn't actually.  OEM software couldn't be just sold with components since shortly after XP SP2 was released.

The SBLA (System Builder License Agreement) states that you have to preinstall the OS on a complete computer using the OEM Preinstallation Kit, and that the system is meant to be sold.  It is not for internal use for the system builder.  If you open an OEM package, you abide by those terms, otherwise it's not a legal license.

If somebody wants Microsoft software for "business" use for their "system builder business" they should buy an Action Pack Subscription instead.  It includes a lot more software, but also costs more.  It's also a yearly subscription that you have to resubscribe to in order to continue using the software.  And it's perfectly legal to use for anybody running a business that "builds systems with, resells systems with, consults about, or otherwise recommends or sells Microsoft software".  It's about $45,000-50,000 worth of software licenses for about $300US a year.

Otherwise, it's retail software only.  Microsoft makes that clear on the licensing section on the OEM System Builder website - and it's specifies these requirements for DIY'ers.

Also, since you can't transfer OEM licenses from one computer to another (a motherboard counts as another computer, even if it's in the same chassis), the retail one is the one DIY'ers SHOULD buy because it includes transfer rights.

Paul and Leo were talking about this on Windows Weekly. Love when Leo said it was "an F-you" to the EU! LOL

Live: http://live.twit.tv/

If I were in the EU and had a choice between Windows 7 E and the full version, I'd go with the latter. No question. I like IE8. It's kind of slow, but not a bad browser.

@Waethorn: Well, I was just surprised (not confused) to see the yellow/Fair status, since I always practice safe surfing. I thought something had gotten in. I knew tune-up hadn't run.

(Sorry for the off-topic post y'all. Paul closed the other thread before I could reply.)

"if they make it available by windows update, they'll probably get slammed for that too, because it's not actually updating anything currently on the machine."

Ditto for Silverlight, Office Live add-in, and Windows Live Essentials.

Meanwhile, Apple Software Update notifies you if Safari is available as an update even when you have any other updates, and if you only have Quicktime installed, and iTunes has an update, but there's no Quicktime update, it still prompts you to install iTunes+Quicktime as a complete package, and advertises it as a program update for software that's already installed (even though it isn't).

ChipWinter,

There is a difference between something you don't like, and a business practice being anti-competitive.

"shove over and make some room, I'm coming to Canada, I've had enough of Europe (and I hear the mountain biking is awesome on the west coast)"

Lots of room already.

FYI:  Alberta and the territories have no provincial sales tax.  Try to stay below the arctic circle unless you like freezing your nutz off.

Mountain biking is pretty awesome - cuz they're real mountains.  Kinda scary actually.  (Note: DO NOT ATTEMPT!)

Campers, hippies, tree-huggers, and generally any pot-smokers usually hang out at "Uni-Van" or take a trip up to Tofino.  Nice beaches and stuff.  It's a real "trip".  X)

techfan

The rule for the OneCare status indicator was:

Green - Everything's fine. You don't have anything to do.

Yellow - Attention: There's something to do but it isn't critical so get to it when you can.

Red - Problem. There's something you should do now.

The unspoken contract with the user was, "If the indicator's green, OneCare has it all covered and you don't need to do anything."

We put it through several passes in the usability labs and a lot of tests at customer's homes with PMs watching over their shoulders to make sure it was interpreted correctly by the target audience. And we even pushed it as the main marketing slogan of "Get Green, Stay Green".

" I'm coming to Canada, I've had enough of Europe (and I hear the mountain biking is awesome on the west coast)"

Another suggestion is to avoid the Vancouver/Whistler corridor until after the Winter Olympics to avoid construction traffic getting in the way of your biking. (although it is some of the most spectacularly beautiful country in the world)

It would have been more particle for the EU to make people ASK if they want IE when they install or boot up WIndows 7 for the first time. That would have been a better way of doing it. Technically, it's still bundling in a way, but you're still giving the consumer the choice of having it.

It's almost as if someone at the EU wasn't looking at the bigger picture.

"Another suggestion is to avoid the Vancouver/Whistler corridor until after the Winter Olympics to avoid construction traffic getting in the way of your biking."

Say hi to the buddy of mine that's working on that if you do.

"it is some of the most spectacularly beautiful country in the world"

Take a look at the Windows 7 Canada theme for some nice pics.

@MikeGalos

Windows Live OneCare was a wonderful product. I was very disappointed when I heard Microsoft were scrapping it for their free version.

I hope that the new Microsoft is, or at least is similar, to OneCare.

I read that you were a program manager for 1.0 in another blog post.

All I have to say is, CHEERS! : )

@mikegalos@msn.com: I see. I guess since I always thought I would be either in "Green" or "Red", "Yellow" was a bit of a surprise.

I remember seeing a "Green" ad somewhere online.

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I'll be going to Montreal next month on an official trip. Never been to Canada, so this should be fun.

Who are these idiots?

www.techflash.com/.../Opera_exec_says_Microsoft_IE8_concession_wont_be_enough_47852502.html

"I'll be going to Montreal next month on an official trip. Never been to Canada, so this should be fun."

Middle of July is the Just for Laughs Comedy Festival.  Lots of celebs are there (many from the US).  The jazz festival runs at the end of June and is also a fave for music lovers.  All of July is the comedy festival, but only the 3rd week (usually) is the English festival.  All of the theatres run comedy shows with one-man shows, improv, theme stand-up shows (like the Irish, Jewish, British, etc. themes).

I sat front-row-center at the Jackie Mason-Freshly Squeezed show at Place des Arts a few years back, and it was just magical!

www.hahaha.com

Be sure to go down to "Old Montreal" near the docks.  Lots of shopping, museums and such.  Be sure to take the tour through Notre Dame Cathedral.  There's also a "Notre-Dame-du-Bonsecours" church with an archeological dig underneath just down the street from the Bonsecours market (an artisan's market) in Old Montreal.

St. Denis Street is in the Latin quarter.  It's also where the theatre is where they tape the JFL shows.  Those shows are actually the gala events during the English portion of the festival, edited for TV.  That quarter is near the university, so it's a close-knit area.

St. Catherines Street is known as being seedy, but it's much improved.  You can (mostly) safely walk from St. Denis to downtown down St. Cate's.  People expect to see prostitutes on practically every corner, but it just isn't like that and hasn't been for years now.

And the food....

Some of the best food you'll find for the money ANYWHERE!

Most bistro's serve very good Quebec wines.  Escargots is a common appetizer, but it's very tasty if you haven't had it already, and you can often get an "almost-gourmet" (gourmet compared to your typical family franchise restaurant) meal with app and dessert for about $15CDN at most bistros, which is just unheard of in Ontario.  A common one I used to eat at was called "L'adresse", but I don't know if they still exist.  It's a small chain in Mtl, but they hire 5-star chefs from one of the famous Mtl cooking schools (Red Cordon or something like that).  Most of the meal specials are about $12-18CDN, and lunches are $8-15, including appetizers and coffee (cafe-au-lait is usually free, but cappucino or espresso cost extra).

It's a really laid-back city.

You can buy liquor at a corner "Couche-tard" (Mac's milk store) too, unlike Ontario.

Have any of you guys heard the news that an "illegal software advocacy" party has actually gained seats in the European parliament?

Seriously, this EU malarkey is fu**** up.

Gorath,

Dude...you need to chill man.

Maybe some of this stuff happening is not fair to MS.  Maybe they have done some shady things in the past and are trying their damned-est to ensure it doesn't happen again.

And maybe it isn't working because the EU has it out for them...or something...

Yet, the world will still turn, and users will still be able (somehow) to get IE or whatever browser they choose.

It is annoying and frustrating but man...it's not like they are saying that MS can't have IE running in the EU at all, ya know?

It is pretty stupid though, I'll admit...but come on....chill, relax, take a deep breath...

What I am really confused about....*IF* the EU had a case originally with the whole bundling/tying whatever of IE into Explorer (like that I asked about before), and that isn't what's happening anymore.....really, what case do they have now as it pertains to IE?

If MS changed what was required regarding IE...what is all this crap about now?

Pnache, I'm annoyed about being ruled over by a bunch of brainless muppets with no concept of right or wrong.

Not only that, but now the EU as well, is showing it's idiocy.

I'm just so pissed with government right now.

"Opera would like to see it apply not just to Europe but to the rest of the world, Lie said. That's another reason the Norwegian browser maker isn't exactly enthused about Microsoft's move."

But they're not enthused about Apple including Safari by default.

Instead, they're more enthusiastic about dethroning the current top-dog to raise their own position.  They're not giving people choice - they're forcing them to choose.  Maybe some people would rather not choose and get what they get instead.  Are they taking those people into consideration?  No.  They're only looking at their own business.  Microsoft should stand up for people that would rather get an integrated solution, and integrated solutions are one of the best things that Microsoft does.  Instead, the EU is robbing Peter to pay Pauly Prissypants.

The EU never fails to surprise me with their level of incompetence. Microsoft should recruit 2 Live Crew and do a remix... Banned in the E.U.

It would be hillarious, but appropriate.

Tag this one under humor.

Peace.

"Have any of you guys heard the news that an "illegal software advocacy" party has actually gained seats in the European parliament?"

The Swedish Pirate Party you mean?

Ya, they have seats in the EU.

What is the motivation for anybody to be creative anymore if they can't make money off their ideas?

An inventor should make more money than the drone that builds his inventions.

I'd say the American Republicans should honestly point their anti-Socialist fingers squarely at the EU.  The US Democrats got nothing on them.

@gorath:

You can be glad to know that I'll still be building systems and including mostly just Microsoft software on them (aside from Flash Player, Adobe Reader, and Java, but that's it).

If you want a system, you could always get one from me and just get it sent to your favourite international courier via a mailbox forwarding service.  I don't take any responsibility for any breach of exporting laws though, as I wouldn't be the one exporting it.  Be aware that it would have a US English version of Windows (there is no Canadian English-specific UI version of Windows) with localization settings set to Canada though.  ;)

Wae, there's also no specific British English UI version of windows - so I'm cool with that!

@gorath:

I would've thought there would be.  The US English one is only for North America.

Why not just ship a version with no internet connectivity and let the customers howl at the EU once they find out they are living in a nation ruled by luddites?

Wae, there are regional options, so that daylight savings and stuff like that adhere to British systems, the £ is the default for currency etc etc.

However, none of the actual GUI is changed. Colour is still spelt Color, etc.

see here...

blogs.msdn.com/.../9705183.aspx

Waethorn

"I'd say the American Republicans should honestly point their anti-Socialist fingers squarely at the EU."

The (US) Republican Party wouldn't dare attack intellectual property pirates, they'd risk losing the (US) Libertarian Party (not to be confused with actual libertarians) who are about the only large group that still vote for Republican Party candidates as a bloc.

As an FYI the list of English Language Locales in Windows 7 RC contains:

English(Australia)

English(Belize)

English(Canada)

English(Caribbean)

English(India)

English(Ireland)

English(Jamaica)

English(Malaysia)

English(New Zealand)

English(Republic of the Philippines)

English(Singapore)

English(South Africa)

English(Trinidad and Tobago)

English(United Kingdom)

English(United States)

English(Zimbabwe)

Keep in mind this was the result of a company who is so useless this is the only way they can hope to get market share. Opera preceded Mozilla as I recall, where have they been? Opera's pathetic showing has been due primarily to the fact that they just can't compete, even though Firefox has proven it's possible.

The EU can shove it, this simply proves their weakness, and the fact that Europe can't compete.  

I hope Obama realizes it would be stupid to allow the Euro's any power over the internet we need to keep it under American jurisdiction, although I have little faith in the man. I'm not sure he believes in America, such is the state of our country that it's left in the hands of people like Pelosi, Obama and Kennedy.

Whiplash55 America did not invent the internet you (americans) do not have sovernity over the internet.

Oh and a question to everyone, does this mean IE will be in no versions what so ever of Windows 7 in the EU unless the OEM allows it e.g. if you buy a retail box will IE be preinstalled or not mabye paul can clear this up.

The EU has responded: news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10263101-56.htm

It likes the idea of Windows 7 E (Opera doesn't like that idea) when it comes to new PC purchases, but doesn't like the software retail sales.

I still don't understand why Apple isn't being forced to include alternate browsers in its OS. I'm sure it is closely watching this though.

This is excellent news. Not only is it keeping Microsoft's evil and anti-competitive practices in check, it also gives the user the opportunity to get a much better browser than the inferior Internet Explorer.

The European version of Windows 6.1 (7) will be the one to get for those with even a slight amount of intelligence.

And the version also without Widnows Media Player is another good thing.

@josh

We do have sovereignty now hopefully we won't allow some useless organization like the UN to control it in the future.

@robertsjoe

They have the opportunity to get any browser they want   now, even one as useless as Safari if they want.

Microsoft is in for a real fight now in the browser market. Mark my words, WebKit is the elephant in the room.

@whiplash55: Safari is superior to IE (any day of the week). Chrome also. WebKit based browsers are the future. Especially on mobile devices.

Excuse me but the uk invented the internet! how do u work that?

It's a shame that there just wasn't an option to delete IE in the EU, but I would bet that this would not satisfy them either. I hope they DL a browser on their old computer before trashing it...in an environmentally friendly way, that is.

JoshW

"America did not invent the internet "

Actually, we did. See the United States Department of Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA) and ARPAnet which later became the Internet.

"Actually, we did."

I thought the internet as we know it was invented in London.

Wae, thanks for the info. I will probably take a couple of days off to see the city.

Re invention of the internet: For once @miguelgalos is correct. Amazing, I know, but he's right for once. Whereas the world wide web was invented in Switzerland.

@mikegalos

Actually the internet hasn't been 'invented' in a single place or person as it's been through a couple major forms and therefore open to different interpretation. It did start off from the ARPANET network but then evolved into the web/internet when Tim Berners-Lee at CERN in Geneva, joined hypertext with the network.

Therefore, this debate is pointless.

@robertsjoe

"keeping Microsoft's evil and anti-competitive practices in check"

Including an Internet browser is evil? I hope that's sarcasm.

"gives the user the opportunity to get a much better browser than the inferior Internet Explorer"

As if they don't have the opportunity to find and download their browser of choice in IE? If the consumer is to technologically illiterate to know how to do that, then that is their own fault, not Microsoft's. Now they'll have even less opportunity to get competing browsers, since there won't even be a browser to find another browser in. Now they'll either have to find a copy of of Opera, Firefox or whatever on physical media of some sort or else Microsoft will have to provide the full range of browsers via Windows Update (unlikely). How does any of this make for an easier experience for the consumer?

If your post was simply in sarcasm, I apologize.

@ropp29: "If your post was simply in sarcasm, I apologize."

Looks like you're new here. If it's robertsjoe, there's usually no sarcasm involved in cases like this.

All this regulatory action against Microsoft is not only bad for Microsoft, it is totally anti-consumer as well. These things the EU has problems with are absolutely vital for average computer use. Imagine the EU got all its wishes and Windows was released as a stripped-down OS without Internet Explorer, Media Player, or anything like that. By the regulator's logic that would offer great choice to consumers. However, to the average consumer that would be nothing but pure annoyance. When the average, nontechnical person buys a computer they just want it to work. They don't want to spend hours hunting down critical software, and its insane to think otherwise.

The only people that win in these ridiculous rulings are the weak companies that can't make it without the government helping them. Consumers lose.

chessnuts

Actually, no. you're flat out wrong. The Internet has a specific meaning and isn't "any online techonlogy I happen to use".

The Internet was a creation of the US DOD. It became open to people outside the DOD establishment and allied research and educational institutions doing US Defense Department work thanks to regulations and funding done by the US Congress spearheaded by Senator Gore.

Lots of other protocols are used on top of the Internet. Like, say, http or ASCII or Unicode or ECMA 262 Scripting or xml. But that's not the Internet. Deal with it.

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Although the Americans did indeed invent the interent, I don't believe any one country "owns" or can "own" it, as the servers nowadays are spread across almost all countries and continents.

Anyway, I reckon that this stupidity proves that the concept of the EU doesn't work. Why join a group of disparate countries together (who mostly hate each other anyway) and expect them to rule as one body?

The whole concept is absurd, so it is quite probable that only crazy people would rise to the top.

@Mike:

Even though there are localised versions of windows, they all use the American English spelling of words, AFAIK. I have no problem with this, I'm just saying, is all.

As a side note, I do find it humorous when people call our language "British English". Surely, since they're referring to the language of England, which is in Britan (and not Scots, Welsh, or Irish or Scottish Gaelic, or Cornish - which are all languages spoken in the UK)

then they're effectively calling it "English English"

Question - why is IE8 dog slow at Javascript?

Because MS doesn't want web apps to replace windows apps.  

It's amazing to me that people defend this company.  Almost everything they do is harmful to consumers.

I wonder if people will have to buy browsers on cd's in stores... or maybe a $30 upgrade for your computer to get a browser?

"it also gives the user the opportunity to get a much better browser"

What, they can't do that now?  News to me.

"English English"

Reminds me of the conversation in Goldmember.

   Nigel: All right, my son: I could've had it away with this cracking Julie, my old China. (Subtitle: I was about to make love to this pretty girl.)

   Austin: Are you telling a bunch pork-pies and a bag of trout? Because if you are feeling quigly, why not just have a J. Arthur? (Is this true? If you were aroused, why didn't you pleasure yourself?)

   Nigel: What, billy no mates? (What, alone?)

   Austin: Too right, youth. (Indeed.)

   Nigel: Don't you remember the crimbo din-din we had with the grotty Scots bint? (Remember Christmas dinner with the Scottish girl?)

   Austin: Oh, the one that was all sixes and sevens! (The insane one?)

   Nigel: Yeah, yeah, she was the trouble and strife of the Morris dancer what lived up the apples and pears! (She was the wife of the dancer who lived upstairs.)

   Austin: She was the barrister what become a bobby in a lorry and... (A lawyer who became a policeman in a truck) [complete gibberish] (????????)...

   Austin & Nigel: --tea kettle!

   Nigel: And then, and then--

   Austin & Nigel: She sh** on a turtle!

It's amazing to me that people defend this company.  Almost everything they do is harmful to consumers.

You're absolutely right. Project Natal was developed with the sole purpose of kicking people in the groin.

Here's a good story about the internet:

gizmodo.com/.../the-complete-animated-history-of-the-internet

Wow...

People now believe America didn't invent the internet...or what was the what became the internet...interesting

When MikeGalos is right, you gotta give him credit.

Also....RobertsJoe is probably the funniest poster on this board...he just repeats his drivel over and over again.  But there's no substance.

RobertsJoe...if MS has "untied" the browser from the OS, what is wrong with them providing a browser by default?

I just dont know what to say to this news. Its so absurd I can only apologize for their insane behaviour. And they wonder why most people here in The Netherlands think only stupid ideas are made up in Brussels.

So I guess there is no choice but to take home a few normal versions on a trip to Canada.

Feels like I am back in the day where every copy of a computer magazine had a CD of Netscape or IE bundled with it :S

This seems so weird to me. Everyone's (well maybe not everyone, but a lot of people) are pushing for Web APIs to become standard APIs for development, whether you're talking about web applications, or even local ones now. They're open. They're standardized. They're cross-platform. You can view source on any of them, meaning they're probably the biggest source of open-source technology in the world. These same people (mostly browser developers), now want the worlds most widely used operating system to ship without any of those APIs included whatsoever. It just seems dumb to me, or at the very least as if those same web developers aren't committed to a web-based future as they claim to be.

Upon further reading, it doesn't look like the EU is totally happy with...they are now saying this is LESS choice for consumers...they would like to see the users get to choose which browser they want, I guess during installation?

A lot of Linux distros do that...you get to select the stuff you want during setup...which media players, browsers, whatever.

I think what made Windows so easy to install though was that you get all that stuff installed for you by default...and then get to go download whatever else it is you want instead, want in addition to, or whatever...

This really is kind of stupid.

"You're absolutely right. Project Natal was developed with the sole purpose of kicking people in the groin."

Hey thanks for acknowledging I'm right.  It's great to see windows zealots finally seeing that MS's vaporware tactics , while legal, are in fact harmful to consumers by damaging companies with legitimate shippiong products.  I never thought I'd see that admission here.

Don't OEMs already install crapware on systems? It's not like Microsoft can stop them from installing 10 other browsers. The EC is trying to make money out of this.

"I'm right.  It's great to see windows zealots finally seeing that MS's vaporware tactics , while legal, are in fact harmful to consumers by damaging companies with legitimate shippiong products."

Actually, I didn't say that, but considering who I'm talking to, I'll leave it right there.

I stand corrected the internet was invented in America but the World Wide Web (just as important as the internet) was invented in Britain. As for sovenity no offense to America but I get the impression from this side of the pond that America thinks it owns everyone and everything this is not the case. No one nation owns the world wide web or the internet it belongs to humanity

"MS's vaporware tactics , while legal, are in fact harmful to consumers by damaging companies with legitimate shipping products."

You're kidding, right?  I mean, it just doesn't make any sense.  So, explain to me how a non-shipping demo of a potential product is somehow damaging to the Wii?  If another product, in this case the Wii, is on such shaky ground that others even mentioning the development of a competing product is damaging, then the product, in this case, the Wii, must not have been very good to begin with.

Under your reasoning, I guess we can lump in Disney, since their Tomorrowland exhibit is all about vaporware, and it therefore must be damaging to competitors.

JoshW, the Web (html) was not created in Britain. It was created in Geneva, at CERN, by an Englishman.

three things that WERE invented in britain include the first electronic computer, invented my Mr Tommy Flowers of the Post Office (no, really, it just sounds bonkers!) the telephone (contentiously, it may well have been an italian fellow however) and the Jet Engine, by Frank Whittle.

all three of these inventions were created in Britain, but were shot down as useless, and pretty much handed over to other countries to develop.

Josh

"I stand corrected the internet was invented in America but the World Wide Web (just as important as the internet) was invented in Britain. "

Um. No. the World Wide Web was invented at CERN in Geneva, Switzerland. The protocols were primarily created by a British research but I'm pretty sure that Geneva didn't suddenly move to Britain.

(And, before you go there, despite William Blake, Jerusalem wasn't outside Glastonbury)

To any poster who believes that the web was invented in Britain, just because Berners-Lee might have been British doesn't necessarily mean he invented the hypertext in Britain.

@mikegalos

You proved your point, but you didn't need to put across so harsh. It's not as if I was desperate to debate that the internet was invented in US/Europe. E.g. "Deal with it." - come on you could have left this part out.

I believe that the internet root servers should be handed over to CERN under the hands of faithful (I hope) scientists or more preferably to the W3C.

The UN is also a better choice than having it under the authoritiy of any nation which still invades countries, but I can see that is a controversial suggestion on this thread.

chessnuts

"just because Berners-Lee might have been British doesn't necessarily mean he invented the hypertext in Britain."

And, for that matter, Tim Berners-Lee didn't invent hypertext which had been around in many forms for many years.

He did invent a hypertext markup language derived from IBM's GML markup language family but stopped well short of Ted Nelson's Xanadu hypertext system. (Both of which predate html by a decade or two)

"So, explain to me how a non-shipping demo of a potential product is somehow damaging to the Wii? "

MS would not promote vaporware unless it was good for them.  And anything that helps MS (or its game offerings) hurts competitors.  So it does hurt them.  Is it a lot?  Hard to say.  But again MS would not do it unless it was effective.

Even if it didn't hurt competitors, it's not helpful to consumers.  It's more like confusing.  MS is promising things it won't necessarily deliver.  They could easily wait until the product is ready or close to ready, but they don't.

Ok ok guys, fair enough he was British though the inventor of the www which is what i ment oringally i need to brush up on my history sorry. As for the telephone we developed it thanks. And everyone for got to mention the TV!

Case closed ill check my facts next time.

And ppl is the windows 7 without internet explorer just in a sperate E version and N versions or in all versions im still confused as are many ppl i have spoke 2 elseware?

cesjr

You keep using this word "vaporware". I do not think it means what you think it means.

Microsoft shipped developer kits for Project Natal to partners the morning of the demo.

By your definition, Snow Leopard is vaporware since it's only been shipped to development partners and Apple demonstrated a year ago. So, let's look at your words again with a little substitution:

Apple would not promote vaporware unless it was good for them.  And anything that helps Apple (or its offerings) hurts competitors.  So it does hurt them.  Is it a lot?  Hard to say.  But again Apple would not do it unless it was effective.

Even if it didn't hurt competitors, it's not helpful to consumers.  It's more like confusing.  Apple is promising things it won't necessarily deliver.  They could easily wait until the product is ready or close to ready, but they don't.

JoshW

"And everyone for got to mention the TV!"

A few reasons:

The TV is an invention that really doesn't have a single point of invention since it really isn't clear what the "first TV" really is.

The technologies that we use now came from multiple sources with the key piece probably being Philo T. Farnsworth's Image Dissector in 1928 which allowed for the first non-mechanical system of converting light images to electrical signals.

We really like saying Phil T. Farnsworth. It just rolls off the tongue.

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