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So if I buy an upgrade copy of Win 7 and in the future and need to do a clearn reinstall of Win7 I have to do a clean install of Vista first, activate, and then do a clean install of 7?

Thats gonna be a blast.

Paul has described himself as a complainer.

It is his job to pick nits and complain, as he exposes as many of the fine details as possible.

This however, does not change the fact that from time to time, the presentation goes through one's head like a nail. Nails on a chalkboard, I tell ya... nails on a chalkboard.

Some days I wish he'd spend as much time railing against the move of the reliability monitor out of Computer Management and into the Action Center only - despite leaving all others logs and instrumentation in CM's snap in. The discovery of which was def a Pffft...face palm moment...

OT alert:

By the by…. Windows 7 is not entirely as compatible with many medical/dental practice management suites as Vista is – despite the two OSs’ similarities and shared driver model. In fact, many can’t use XP Mode to work around incompatibilities – sorry to come OT, but XP and Vista users beware, despite 7’s reported goodness, there is still a lot of work to be done. XP users most especially, are going to be on a very steep ramp that will be nearly as challenging as those experienced by XP to Vista users. Baselines, be they in small business, or busy homes with multiple PC’s are going to be as important as they ever were.

Paul from what is described there the double installed trick will not work because when you install Windows 7 the first time it is not activated at that point.  Says here the previous OS needs to be activated.

The qualifying Windows operating system must have a genuine license (product key) and it must be activated.

The difference between Vista and 7 with this process is that Vista did _not_ have to be activated before the 2nd install.  

It appears that from the qualifiers above, the prior OS _must_ be activated, which throws a money wrench into the already discovered process.

I totally understand why they are doing this, however it's very inconvenient and not particularly fair to legitimate users.

Looks like daz beat me to the post! :-)

Upgrade editions have always been a PITA. If I want the convenience of booting of my USB flash drive to start setup, I have no choice but to buy the full version. Imagine the nightware when service packs start coming and they aren't cumulative anymore.

1.  Install earlier qualifying OS or Windows 7 itself.

2.  Start the real upgrade you want to do from that OS.

3.  Install SP1.

4.  Install SP2.

What's the point of reducing the time setup takes then?

Pogue engages in some MS bashing:

>>come on — the list of commercial hits/Microsoft knockoffs is as long as your arm. PalmPilot/PocketPC. Netscape Navigator/Internet Explorer. Mac OS X/Windows Vista. Apple iPod/Microsoft Zune. <<

Then says:

>>if you value your time, you should give Bing a fling.

Put another way, even if Bing really did stand for “But it’s not Google,” that is not necessarily an insult.<<

www.nytimes.com/.../09pogue.html

What bugs me about this logic is that anyone like me who installed the Win7 RC will need to reinstall and reactivate their previous OS in order to install their upgrade.  I'm guessing that's a large number of us who will be forced to do a second install.  It would be nice if we could just have inserted our previous media, but obviously the new "must be activated" requirement gives them a much better test of whether you are actually eligible for upgrade pricing.

Too bad we can't just buy a full version at an upgrade price based on proof of previous licensing.

I agree dwharrieson.  I'm using 7 RC as my only OS at this point (the laptop came with Vista Home Premium SP1 (OEM)) and it will be a PITA to reinstall Vista (why should I?).

Microsoft: is it that hard to during 7 Setup to ask for a Genuine previous OS disc as proof?

How much more expensive generally is an OEM version of Windows next to an Upgrade version?

I kinda miss the old days: Put in upgrade disc - say, Windows 2000. Win 2K setup asks for Windows 98 media. You take out the Win2K disc, put in the Win98 disc ... setup says "OK". Put the Win2K disc back in and you're off to the races.

What sucks is that all this activation crap is a direct result of people not paying for software :(

>>What sucks is that all this activation crap is a direct result of people not paying for software<<

Yeah...bollucks to Linux for giving people the idea that software should be free...

I have to agree, this process is going to make it rather inconvenient. Even the approach for upgrading Vista is better than this. I've upgraded my Dell laptop and a desktop PC to Win7 /64, when they start to degrade (end of Feb 2010), I'll probably be going back to and sticking with Vista..

Win 7 is nice, but it's hardly worth the additional cost and effort. I'm really starting to wonder if MS have hired a bunch of masochists. Every time there's an opportunity to advance their cause in a positive light, they do something to provoke a negative response.

"I'm using 7 RC as my only OS at this point (the laptop came with Vista Home Premium SP1 (OEM)) and it will be a PITA to reinstall Vista "

Ya, cuz 15 minutes of your time is really a PITA....

All you need to do is install Vista, add a network driver in, and activate it.

Then upgrade.

And it takes 15 minutes to install Vista from scratch off the DVD.

@Ocean - "Yeah...bollucks to Linux for giving people the idea that software should be free..."

So, you are advocating piracy of Microsoft and Apple Operating System products based on the fact that Linux is Open Source(and not necessarily free)? Hmmm, that says a lot!

--tayme

I'm wondering if the clean install approach is overrated here. I've found that upgrading has improved with each OS release. For example, I installed Windows 7 RC as an upgrade on top of Vista Ultimate which was also an upgrade from XP. A recipe for disaster you say? I actually worked very well - but of course took longer. After, I tried a clean install of Windows 7 then reinstalled my files and programs. What was the difference in performance? Frankly, it was identical.

Also, remember with a clean install, Windows 7 will keep a copy of your files and programs in a folder called windows.old. From here you can simply drag and drop your files into your new folders but you will not be able to do this for programs; these will have to reinstalled manually. After this, you can delete the windows.old files through the disk cleanup tool.

So here's what I'm hoping to do: keep running Windows 7 RC (from the clean install and activated) until October then upgrade to Windows 7 Professional. Does anyone think this should work fine?

"How much more expensive generally is an OEM version of Windows next to an Upgrade version?"

They are the same price usually.

Thing is, an OEM System Builder version isn't legal for the general public to buy off-the-shelf (unless it's accompanied by a complete computer system, that is).

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roblind, I don't think we will be able to upgrade from Win7 RC to Final.  Makes sense if the purpose of the activation requirement is to ensure that you are eligible for the upgrade; having an activated RC basically proves nothing except that the Win7 activation system works.

"I'm really starting to wonder if MS have hired a bunch of masochists. Every time there's an opportunity to advance their cause in a positive light, they do something to provoke a negative response."

Reminds me of one of my favorite phrases: "Never attribute conspiracy to that which can be explained by incompetence".  

Replace "conspiracy" with "masochism" and you've got a pretty good explanation right there.

I think a simpler approach would be to allow a clean installation, but upon activation of the new OS, the software should require that you put in your previous disc, along with the old product key.  Requiring it AFTER installation allows the user the opportunity to install a network driver, or otherwise establish their internet connection so that Microsoft can check the old product key online to see if the activation matches the current hardware as it would normally.  And then just activate the new Windows with the new product key.

That would work, in theory anyway, but the big problem is that major OEM's have SLP (system-locked protection) copies of Windows installed that don't require activation by the end user.  The method I propose above would only work for retail and generic System Builder installations, which are far less in number than with direct OEM's.

I like Waethorn's idea.  Even with the SLP, how hard would it be to check the OEM disk against the bios before prompting for the product key?

I think a bigger PITA would be when you have a hard disk fail and you did not create the "Recovery" disks before wiping the drive when you installed Win7.

Let's say I have an HP that came with Vista Home Premium 64,  and the Recovery partition.  But now has Win7 RC on it.  

Can I just reload the pc from scratch with the recovery image and then use upgrade media for Win7?

I don't have a product key or at least I don't know how to find it in the OS?  Do I need the Key at this point?

"I think a bigger PITA would be when you have a hard disk fail and you did not create the "Recovery" disks before wiping the drive when you installed Win7."

That happens to customers that have name brand systems serviced in my shop too.  They'll bring in a computer out of warranty and their drive fails, so they have to order discs from the manufacturer and it can take weeks to get them delivered.

Dell has one of the worst customer support issues though:  if you buy a refurb'ed Dell system from a reseller, and all you get is a COA with it (it's illegal to sell them that way, but many refurb'ers do it), you can't order a replacement installation disc from Dell, because a)  you aren't the originally registered owner of the computer, and b) you won't know who was the original owner in order to change the registration on the computer - and they require that you at least give them the name of the original owner in order to transfer the registration.  Users get stuck with a computer that they can't get installation media for, so they end up having to pay full pop for a retail full version of Windows.  Most of the time that ends up costing them the same amount of money as the refurb'ed computer.

"Let's say I have an HP that came with Vista Home Premium 64,  and the Recovery partition.  But now has Win7 RC on it.  

Can I just reload the pc from scratch with the recovery image and then use upgrade media for Win7?"

So long as you didn't remove the recovery partition when you installed Windows 7 RTM, yes, although depending on how your recovery partition works, the Windows 7 install may have destroyed your bootloader.

Can you hit the Fx-whatever key to still get into the recovery partition?  If not, you'll need your OEM discs.

"I don't have a product key or at least I don't know how to find it in the OS?  Do I need the Key at this point?"

Your HP computer would've come with a product key sticker on a certificate of authenticity attached to the side, top, or back of the computer.  You don't need the product key for an HP software reinstallation though.  If you need to order discs from HP, you just have to have the computer registered, or have the ownership transfered (see my note about Dell though), and give them the serial number and part number on the black and white HP sticker that is attached somewhere on your PC.

"Even with the SLP, how hard would it be to check the OEM disk against the bios before prompting for the product key?"

Microsoft would have to include all of the SLP BIOS strings in the install, so that's a massive undertaking.  Manufacturers set up SLP themselves.

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It still amazes me that with this possibly corporate image improving release for Microsoft they are still releasing information like it has to be declassified by the NSA/CIA for public release.

>>So, you are advocating piracy of Microsoft and Apple Operating System products based on the fact that Linux is Open Source(and not necessarily free)?<<

Did I say that?

I'm not sure why people are making a stink about this.  This is why it's called an "UPGRADE EDITION"

Buy the full version when it comes out then you don't have to worry about any of these problems.

Impressive thread over something that should be dead simple. Too bad Microsoft is so focussed on product keys and activation schemes that they can't figure out how to make this process work. The focus on piracy has the usual effect of making life difficult for paying customers, but this is really an extreme example.

"Buy the full version when it comes out then you don't have to worry about any of these problems."

Yes, it almost seems that is what Microsoft wants you to do, doesn't it? So much for that "upgrade price".

"Buy the full version when it comes out then you don't have to worry about any of these problems."

My opinion is that if you have a computer than can't run Windows Vista already, it's not likely going to run Windows 7 that well, *some* Atom netbooks notwithstanding (I would completely rule out running it on any of the Z-series Atom's - I know - I've tried - it's ugly).  Windows Vista users with SP2 (everybody should be on that already) won't notice a big performance increase on an average machine.  Are the features worth spending that much on an upgrade if you already own Windows Vista?  Honestly, I don't think so.  If your computer can't run Windows Vista that well, Windows 7 isn't going to be some kind of miracle-maker either.

My advice is to buy a new system that includes it.  Most customers probably will anyway.  Netbooks that can't run Windows Vista well will still be better suited to Windows 7 Starter, and new netbooks will ship with the new Atom dual-core mobile chips later this year anyway, which is going to be a much better experience with multimedia on Home Premium (HD video isn't workable on existing GMA 950-based machines).

So to sum up:

Is Windows 7 good?  YES

Is it better than Vista?  YES

Is it vastly superior to Vista?  IMHO NO, but YMMV.  There are unique features that Vista doesn't have that certain folks will like (such as XP Mode) - I like the new deployment refinements  ;)

Is it worth the upgrade for Windows Vista users?  IMHO, not really, unless you can get some kind of deal on the upgrade

Is it worth the upgrade for XP users?  YES, but only if your computer is at least Vista Premium compliant but you've been holding out on Vista

Will it improve your systems performance?  NO

Will it run on netbooks?  YES

Will it run faster than Vista?  Only on Atom-based netbooks because Vista wasn't optimized for them and XP has much lower requirements than Vista.  On mainstream systems, NO, although UI animations have been sped up from Vista so it'll seem faster to move around.  There are shortcuts to certain areas (like wireless network connections) that weren't present in Vista, so that may be "faster" from a workflow perspective.

Will it run well on all netbooks?  IMHO, only N series Atom netbooks

Should you wait to buy a netbook?  YES - wait for the dual-core processors with HD video support later this year, or else an Ion netbook system now, which are still not widely available (Lenovo S12 Ion is the only one I know of off-hand but it's not due out until close to September, and shortly after the dual-cores will be shipping)

Should I wait and just replace my aging computer instead of upgrading it to Windows 7?  IMHO if you have an XP-era computer, YES - you'll have a much better experience that way

Should you wait to buy a computer until after Windows 7 ships?  NO, unless you want a netbook (see my above note - it's more for the hardware than the software).   MAKE SURE the system includes the free Windows 7 Upgrade Option though.

Just a reminder of why Microsoft cares about product keys and the like... Pirated copies of Windows are the 2nd most popular operating system in the world with usage vastly higher than the total installed base of all Apple and Linux operating systems.

So, if you think Microsoft cares about OS X, realize that they care quite a few times more about bootleg Windows.

And, if you want to get pissy about it, blame the people who think that stealing intellectual property is their right.

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So how about those of us running the Windows 7 RC. Is their any scenarios by Microsoft that allows those of us with RC to go from the RC to the final version without having to revert back to Vista? I do have a disk with Vista, incase that was my only option.

However, I'd like to see if I could either use the upgrade disk or possibly the anytime upgrade disk to bring the RC up to the final version.

Paul, is their any upgrade scenarios for the millions of folks with the RC?

Can you "upgrade" Vista Ultimate to Win 7 Pro?

@sub:

Because the RC is pre-release code, I would guess not.

Grab your copy of Easy Transfer (or USMT), backup, and reinstall Vista.

"Can you "upgrade" Vista Ultimate to Win 7 Pro?"

Yes.

Hi,

I haveVista Home Premium installed, genuine and activated, but it's in on Spanish.

Can I upgrade to Windows 7 Professional (English version)?

Thanks!

@whip:

Do you mean "upgrade" as in install over top?

I don't imagine so, but I don't know, since nobody seems to have any information about how the RTM upgrade media will react.

You can, at the very least, do an edition "step-down" AFAIK though, but that may require a clean install....again, there is no clear indication if you can install over top of a trial install of Windows 7.

If they actually require that the previously licensed OS be activated, I don't see how that is possible though.

Maybe it's possible to get one of those 90-day promotional trial keys and activate the trial with that - I don't know.

@rcarrillo:

Final license restrictions for upgrades hasn't been documented.

HIstorically, users have been able to step down an edition.

Whether or not you can step up remains to be seen, but I'm guessing yes.

@Wae,

I have my Vista Ultimate on the previous hard drive ready to go, so all I'd have to do is buy the upgrade disk and upgrade. That was my failsafe plan. I just thought it would be easier to bring the Pre-Release code to RTM code. But I guess not since it was not possible on previous Windows versions. However, I thought since you could upgrade the beta to the RC, they would have a way to upgrade the RC up to RTM.

I still haven't gotten an official answer to that question. But assuming that it is possible, I thought Microsoft might throw the RC and Beta testers a bone here and allow us to upgrade or have a discount.

"Just a reminder of why Microsoft cares about product keys and the like... Pirated copies of Windows are the 2nd most popular operating system in the world with usage vastly higher than the total installed base of all Apple and Linux operating systems."

Hmmm. I think it's been said on this forum that  something like 95% of the copies of Windows sold come pre-installed on a computer, and that the remaining 5% are retail sales.

So, what do you figure? If half the sales are are lost, that's 2.5% of the total possible, so by that math, OSX, even with its small marketshare is larger than the pirated copies. It also means that Microsoft is inflicting this mess---and that's the only word for it---on 98% of the users because of a 2% effect on sales. Nice.

Of course, it's not that simple when you get outside the US/Canda/Japan/Europe. I suspect the rate of piracy is MUCH higher.

And, yah, I hate this activation crap. I change between VMWare Fusion and Parallels and the damn thing wants to be activated again. The way activation works has roots in computing paradigms from 10 years ago, and it's just an awful mess.

@Waethorn

You have come up with some good idea's about how this whole upgrade\clean install could be made easier for users. Putting in the O\S installation disk and product key to verify you have a genuine version of Windows has merit.  

I want to know if the clean install will still let us format after it checks that there's a valid OS installed. If not that's major bull. I don't want to keep installing in different partitions every time.

" It also means that Microsoft is inflicting this mess---and that's the only word for it---on 98% of the users because of a 2% effect on sales. Nice."

Ask one of your friends running Windows when was the last time they had to enter a product key. (I doubt you have any - you've probably converted some of them and killed off the rest.) For 95% of the people, the answer is never.

If I can't install it on a blank hard drive, I fail to see how it's a clean install.

MS should just use the verification system they've used forever and a day (ie. halfway through installing, it asks you to pop in your XP/Vista disc to verify that you are in fact eligible for the upgrade).

Why do they have to screw with what people already know and what works just fine?

The problem with needing the old OS install disk is so many OEMs don't include them. Its not like in the Win98 days when you always  got a OS disk. Now people either have to burn their own, or worse just have the hidden partition with the system restore on it.

Its easy to format the whole drive when doing a clean install, in fact its probably advisable if you think there might be stuff on the computer.

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