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Microsoft, not bloggers, are responsible for lack of clarity around Windows 7 RTM

This one is painful for me, because we all want to believe that the group at Microsoft currently responsible for Windows is righting all the wrongs. But the truth is, they're making the same communication mistakes that the company made when Vista was coming. That is, while Microsoft is preaching "clarity" in their OS, they've been anything but clear in communicating what's happening. In fact, they've actively and sometimes even purposefully muddied the waters.

The most obvious example of this, sadly, is Microsoft blogger Brandon LeBlanc. Brandon's a good guy, a really good guy, but his last couple of posts on the official Windows Blog have been painful. I take particular offense at yesterday's post, innocuously (as ever) titled, Update on Windows 7 RTM. You would expect such a post to simply explain what's going on with the Windows 7 RTM, spell out a rough schedule, and be done with it. The whole thing could be wrapped up in about three sentences. That's not what we get.

Instead, Brandon lashes out at the "rumors surrounding RTM," repeating the Steven Sinofksy claim that ...

"RTM isn't a single point in time."

Um, what? Releasing a product to manufacturing is very much a single point in time. If it's not, you're not doing it right. Life isn't a giant flowchart for crying out loud.

But that's not my real issue. It's this little diatribe about leaked builds (bolded emphasis mine):

Beware of what you download. There are many bogus copies of Windows 7 floating around the Internet. More often than not, they contain a rather nice malware payload. And don’t believe everything you read on the Internet. When Windows 7 hits RTM, it will be announced here. Until that happens, any builds you are likely to see on the web are either not the final bits or are laced with malicious code.

Wow.

So how will you announce RTM if it's not a single point in time?

And how is it, exactly, that we should trust what you write if, a) we can't trust everything on the Internet, and, b) you get so much wrong?

Recall that the technical press who attended the Windows 7 Reviewers Workshop in October was promised, explicitly by Microsoft, regular interim Windows 7 builds. We got exactly zero of those builds. So, given the veil of secrecy, we've been forced to download "bogus copies of Windows 7" to see how things have progressed over time.

Why did we "have" to do this? Some of us had books to complete, thank you very much. Some are press who simply believe in the whole Fourth Estate thing. I fall into both categories--ultimately, my job is to communicate what Microsoft is doing, after all--and I have personally downloaded every single leaked build that's popped up. I have also, in fact, had access to several builds that were never leaked widely. I have never, ever--not once--gotten malware as part of any of these downloads. Not once. I'm not saying its not possible. I'm just saying it never happened. Unlike Brandon, I downloaded the builds. Because I had to. Who should you trust on this?

---

Regarding RTM, I have been told privately on more than one occasion that we can expect a few weeks of dicking around (not the official term, but, I think, more accurate) while Microsoft takes build 7600 and basically revs it based on last-minute fixes. This happens with each Windows release, of course. Not coincidentally, Tom Warren at Neowin has a nice post about this exact thing happening right now.

In recent days build 7600 has leaked with the build tag 7.7600.16384.090710-1945. The 16384 part is significant as it's the "minor part" which indicates it is a build Microsoft may be ready to release. If a minor change is made the build becomes 16385, 16386 etc.

Update: Just got word from several sources that 7600.16385.090713-1255 has been compiled but it's not yet clear if this is just the Windows 7 WDK only or client too.

But the best part of Tom's post, the point of it really, is that LeBlanc isn't alone in misleading the public. Yesterday, during the WPC keynote, Microsoft senior vice president Bill Veghte neatly tap-danced around when Microsoft would RTM Windows 7. In fact, it was disappointing because he was so vague. Here's what he said about RTM, and you can see it for yourself at 56:41 in the video (again, emphasis mine):

It is such an exciting time. This month we will release Windows 7 to manufacturing, and we write that next chapter, we go after that opportunity.

There's just one problem. The official transcript of the speech, clearly written off the script ahead of time (or just a simple mistake, I guess; either way, it's wrong), reads as follows:

It is such an exciting time. This morning we will release Windows 7 to manufacturing, and we write that next chapter, we go after that opportunity.

So again, I have to ask? Why are you, Microsoft, railing against bloggers when you don't even get it right?

And if RTM isn't a single point in time, why was senior vice president Bill Veghte originally going to announce it yesterday?

Microsoft, don't be petty enough to even respond to this. Do be mature enough to start communicating this stuff effectively.

---

You know what? I can't let this sit. There is so much more wrong here. I have so many questions.

Why doesn't Ultimate get a temporary low-cost Upgrade? You screwed those customers, plain and simple. Now you're screwing them again.

If Windows 7 is a single "global launch," then why is it being dribbled out in stages to MSDN/TechNet, SA customers, consumers, and so on? It's more of a staggered launch than a single point in time (cough).

Why don't you support in-place upgrades from your single biggest customer group (XP users)? You could upgrade from XP to Vista. Why are you punishing the biggest group of Windows users by making the Windows 7 "upgrade" more difficult for them? Don't you care about your customers? You used to: You supposedly delayed Windows 98 to support in-place upgrades from Windows 3.1 over a decade ago. Remember that?

Why do certain locales not get special promotional pricing? Australia?

Why is Windows 7 so freaking expensive in some parts of the world, especially Europe? And don't say VAT. That's not it.

Promotional copies of Windows 7 are sold out? How can you "sell out" of a product that hasn't been manufactured yet? Sorry, I'm calling BS on that one.

On and on it goes. There are a hundred of these, I bet. All valid questions, I think.

But heck, don't read everything you believe on the Internet. Or something. :)

Comments

 

anonymuos said:

Well, they'll said they'll annouce it when it's RTMed, why is the blogger community getting hyper? In other news, Word plays catchup with Pages as well like PowerPoint plays catchup with Keynote. Did you check out the awesome typography features of Word 2010?

July 14, 2009 8:23 AM
 

meason said:

Word playing catchup to Pages? are you kidding me?

July 14, 2009 8:33 AM
 

dugbug said:

Why is this such a big deal? MS provides far more transparency than anyone else: we had a public beta, we had a public RC.  Who else does that?

I really don't care if RTM is announced this week or next week, or some time in June.  

Every company hedges its bets with concervative dates whenever they can,  and sometimes engineers vs marketing have different ways of communicating the "doneness" of something.

Don't sweat the small things.

July 14, 2009 8:35 AM
 

realtestman said:

He clearly is, or insane.  One of the two.  I wouldn't worry about it meason, just disregard the Pages comment as the work of a madman.

July 14, 2009 8:35 AM
 

techman.merb said:

"Promotional copies of Windows 7 are sold out? How can you "sell out" of a product that hasn't been manufactured yet? Sorry, I'm calling BS on that one."

How is it possible to sell out a product that doesn't even require a physical media and can simply be downloaded?

I totally agree with you about the problems upgrading from XP. I have many clients ready to switch to 7 from XP but not if it requires a system wipe and total re-install of all their software.

And don't get me started about the Ultimate pricing thing.

I'm really looking forward to the RTM being made available on Technet, but so disappointed in the way MS is just unable to do things well that should be so simple to do properly.

July 14, 2009 8:37 AM
 

pthurrott said:

Regarding Pages, I assume that was meant to be funny. :) Page is pathetic.

That said, Microsoft is clearly taking aim at Keynote with PowerPoint 2010. And that has absolutely nothing to do with this post, so let's move on, shall we?

July 14, 2009 8:47 AM
 

pthurrott said:

And for whatever its worth, communicating the completion of the next version of your most important product is not "a small thing." It's pretty much everything at this point in the game. Microsoft has badly bungled the communication of what's going on here, and it's confusing customers. This is a big deal.

July 14, 2009 8:48 AM
 

Delmont said:

Personally, I could really care less on these build numbers. Personally I find it very juvenile.  Personally I find it beyond comprehension why anyone would download "leaked" builds from torrent sites. If you do this tells me 100% you're not a professional

This will go RTM when they have it ready. Then the corporate world will get its hands on it, test it, build images and test applications. Till then,  this is all b.s.

You all complain if Microsoft pushes out poor quality software. You all complain when Microsoft doesn't give a specific date because they want to test first.

So which is it?  

This will be released to the public in the fall on schedule. The corporate world, SA Partners will get their hands on it, MSDN partners, ISVS will get their hands on it.  Go work 25 years in the corporate world were deal with ISO, ITIL, HIPAA, various other vendor guidelines. Work in an environment were millions of dollars of revenue are on the line. Then go talk to your mananger about weekly builds and he'll walk you off the property. Then come back to me and tell me how important weekly build numbers are.   Personally I could care less what some Russian blogger is posting about leaked weekly build numbers. Are you being serious about even paying attention to this person? Come on!  Get in the real world!

I just think you're missing the bigger picture here with what Microsoft has to deal with.

July 14, 2009 9:09 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

Why in the name of all that's holy hasn't "iSwallow" been booted off this site?

July 14, 2009 9:10 AM
 

meason said:

@techman.merb

I guess it is only placed on a limited number of server hard drives, and when they wear out, there will be no more....

Sort like when Disney puts out Cinderella on DVD for a limited time only.....

July 14, 2009 9:14 AM
 

reddragon72 said:

HAHAHA this even has been the a gag of my favorite cartoon series!!!

www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php

it's to funny... even if you don't know the series the last frame is GREAT!!!!!

July 14, 2009 9:17 AM
 

EricoF3 said:

ISwallow : "iWork is pleasure to use and is very elegant compared to Office. It must be frustrating to see Apple constantly beat MS even on its first try."

Lolololo... The most popular Office suit on Mac is Microsoft Office so... Loololoo... Have fun with iWork but nobody use it ... Lololol

It is like if you tell that there is always less user of good product than the number of user of bad products... Dop!! please stop Intellectual Masturbation and ground you feet on earth... The best and the most popular Office suit is Microsoft Office... Even on Mac... Sorry ISwallow...

You can continue have this kind of statement and hope this will do it real ... But this will not happen!

Les usagers MAC sont toujours aussi divertissant lollololo

July 14, 2009 9:18 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

It's nice to see Paul get his righteous indignation on, especially when he's right. I especially liked these two:

"Why don't you support in-place upgrades from your single biggest customer group (XP users)? You could upgrade from XP to Vista. Why are you punishing the biggest group of Windows users by making the Windows 7 "upgrade" more difficult for them?"

"Promotional copies of Windows 7 are sold out? How can you "sell out" of a product that hasn't been manufactured yet? Sorry, I'm calling BS on that one."

No kidding.

For a company that does so much so well, it's amazing how Microsoft can screw the pooch in the ways Paul is describing. Their bureaucracy must rival that of Washington DC. Paul really put his reputation and credibility on the line for this post (and without a hidden agenda—I really believe it's because he wants Microsoft to do a better job), and good for him. Bravo, Mr. Thurrott.

July 14, 2009 9:19 AM
 

notawindowsuser said:

Damballa managed to grab control over the server that’s contacted by the pirated Windows 7 versions — codecs.systes.net — which is how it knows how many new, compromised installations are requesting the malware. As of Monday afternoon, the company had tracked 3,452 compromised systems hitting the site, with a peak of more than 550 new infections per hour on Sunday.

There is evidence that the pirated packages of Windows 7 were released on torrent sites on April 24 and was live for at least 16 days before Damballa killed the command-and-control.   That puts estimates at about 27,000 installs, eWEEK reports.

As for the rest of the post, what Delmont said.

July 14, 2009 9:26 AM
 

techfan said:

Great post about the differences between Office and iWork, Paul. What? This post wasn't about a productivity suite? Well, going by the comments...

Anyway...

Great post. My favorite thing about this whole thing is that "sell out" of software that hasn't been pressed. How can something that isn't get physical -- bured onto a DVD -- be sold out? Shouldn't the number of purchases dictate the number of copies made? Obviously Microsoft wanted to sell a number of copies at a reduced price and then charge people more money.

Now I know people like to call Microsoft M$, Micro$osft because it's the only corporation in the world that makes money by selling its software. Unlike, say Apple. But this kind of thing just fuels those people.

LaBlanc does have a point those about downloading unofficial version of the RC but it's not the bloggers and enthusiasts fault, it's MS's fault for but being as transparent about the state of the RC as it said it would be.

As a Windows user/fan, I like coming to sites like yours, and Neowin, Long Zheng's, Eb Bott's, Mary Joe Foley's, hell, even Ina Fried's with her snarky posts about MS/Windows, so it would be nice for Microsoft to be more open about Win7. Microsoft is missing a good opportunity to get some free press and word of mouth by going back on its word and not being as open about the state of Windows 7.

July 14, 2009 9:42 AM
 

Mark KB said:

On schedules: I'm not sure what more you want from them - they've said they're aiming for 2H Jul '09. We've been given dates for SA customers (Sept 1) and GA (Oct 22). MSDN members get access to it "a few weeks" after RTM. Windows 7 is in escrow, so what other steps are there but RTM?

On "RTM isn’t a single point in time": I believe he's referring to the fever over "OMG 7600 it's RTM time!z" - that is, the assumption that since the final build has been built, then it has "RTM'd" (in other words, sent to manufacturers already). He's saying that it takes time between build and "RTM" (e.g. l10n, pressing, shipping arrangements, ect), thus the "process" is not RTM itself, but the road to RTM. Similarily, when someone says "shipping takes time", they don't mean the actual shipping per se, but the process of ironing out bugs so the software can ship.

I have to agree about the raw deal wrt Windows 7 testers, though. I understand they didn't want to repeat the whole CTP leaking thing (both info and builds), but just two builds (and the same ones the public got) is rediculous.

July 14, 2009 9:47 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Paul, and anyone else who thinks RTM is important...

Why?

Seriously. Why? The release dates are set. Everything that deals with you is set. Unless you are on the Windows team, why on earth would you care about daily builds?

Paul

You say "communicating the completion of the next version of your most important product is not "a small thing." It's pretty much everything at this point in the game."

No. When it will ship is pretty much everything.

What internal processes are left to be done (and that is what RTM really does mean) is really so "Inside Baseball" that NOBODY cares except for dueling bloggers trying to break the build number for some wierd ego fest.

Seriously. I'm waiting for anybody (not on the Windows team) to provide ANY reason for caring.

July 14, 2009 9:49 AM
 

RobertC said:

iSwallow, iWork is absolutely pathetic. It doesn't even remotely approach the functionality of Microsoft Office.

July 14, 2009 9:51 AM
 

Bodypaint said:

Name one piece of software that apple have written that's any good!

quicktime = POS and that's being nice.

itunes = POS no one would use it if they weren't forced.

safari = POS and that's being nice.

FCP, I've never used it, but if it's so damn good, why aren't they porting it to the Windows platform? Besides, did they (apple) actually write this?

iswallow says it all, like many of the apple fanatic fringe, swallowing is a prerequisite.

I agree with Paul on this, I'm dumbfounded how MS can make the same mistakes time after time. Yes it's true, they're more transparent than most other companies, (apple are the least transparent) but their communication needs to be both transparent and accurate, and it needs to be consistent.

I also agree, that some effort and time should have been given to developing a direct upgrade path from XP. Adding more hurdles to the upgrade path for existing customers doesn't help Microsoft's cause. That said, an estimated 40-42%  Windows 7 adoption rate in the first year (300% higher than XP) is nothing to sneeze at. Perhaps they know their business more than me, a sofa quarterback!

July 14, 2009 9:52 AM
 

RobertC said:

Mike, I agree. This is such a waste of time. Meanwhile, people in Africa are dying of AIDS, indigenous children in Australia are being sexually assaulted and Government Motors in the United States has just emerged from a whirlwind bankruptcy.

No-one cares if Microsoft was supposed to release Windows 7 RTM this morning or next week.

July 14, 2009 9:54 AM
 

de Silentio said:

Mike, We purchased Software Assurance with a stock of Vista machines almost two years ago.  In fact, the SA expires August 25th or so.

I'm not sure how SA works since I am new to it, but if my benefits extend to RTM, then RTM is quite important to me, because that is when I can upgrade my Vista licenses to 7.  Now, rather or not RTM is the upgrade time for SA I am not sure.

July 14, 2009 9:56 AM
 

Windows 7, a saga continua » Guia do PC said:

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July 14, 2009 9:58 AM
 

pthurrott said:

Obviously, the "iSwallow" thing is unacceptable. See you in a few days. Comparing iWork to Office is silly and, in this case, off-topic.

Debating whether RTM is important or not is ... well debatable. I think it is. Mike G. doesn't. Whatever. It's at least on-topic. Go nuts.

July 14, 2009 10:01 AM
 

tmgarrison said:

I must say that I find this whole post really strange.  I usually love reading the blog.  Paul's insight is usually on target, and I mostly agree with even some of the more off-the-wall commentary.

It has been reported in nooks and crannies for a while now that MS was trying for an RTM that would coincide with an announcement this week.  It was clearly written into a speech that was edited at the last minute and wasn't properly updated before being distributed.  So they targeted something, for whatever reason didn't make the date, and things happened in such a fashion that a small piece of incorrect information leaked.

Though I don't believe this is "lemons", it is pretty clear that Paul does, and I'm kind of surprised that he can't take lemons and make lemonade.  This whole piece about RTM being a 'date' and not a 'period'.  Well ... it's both ... or can be thought of in that way.  There's the selection of a build as a candidate for RTM (a point in time), extensive testing and verification (a period of time) and the announcement that we have a verified RTM build (a point in time).  And if things go wrong in there, we tend to reboot the clock and start over.  Which certainly may (or may not) explain some of the timing issues we are seeing right now.  In any event, I find it fascinating that we are taking the low road here rather than the high one.  Rather than educate people about what could be going on behind the scenes we choose to make a big fuss about the fact that a speech got changed and the press received copies that were slightly incorrect.

Nearly the entire post is a giant pressure release.  The whooshing noise is hurting my ears.

July 14, 2009 10:09 AM
 

Waethorn said:

"communicating the completion of the next version of your most important product is not "a small thing." "

According to you, Paul, Windows 7 is just a fine-tuning of Windows Vista.

So which is it?

Honestly, Mike is right about GA.  You either get it during GA, or you get it later.  Businesses aren't keen on deploying it early - just getting their hands on it early to start testing.  Anything prior to that is still not set in stone.

I'm interested in getting it early so that I can deploy systems on the date of GA, but distributors have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA when they're going to get System Builder copies, so it's awash.  If I can get it from the Action Pack download site early, great!  If not, oh well.  Vista is stable and quick on all of the systems we use here, and I don't have a lot of time to think about deployment on internal business machines here until it's available on the Action Pack website.

If anything, I'm more interested in hearing about how Microsoft is going to update Windows Essential Server Solutions to include Server 2008 R2 so that SMB's can use BranchCache and DirectAccess.  Nothing has been said about that yet, but I expect it's probably a year off.

July 14, 2009 10:15 AM
 

anonymuos said:

What I meant was "in the typography department". Not in terms of all features. Word never did typography until now, while OS X and Pages (still) are much more capable than Word at typography and page layout. Give your brain a workout before calling me madman or insane.

July 14, 2009 10:21 AM
 

chuckb84 said:

"Why don't you support in-place upgrades from your single biggest customer group (XP users)? You could upgrade from XP to Vista. Why are you punishing the biggest group of Windows users by making the Windows 7 "upgrade" more difficult for them?"

"Promotional copies of Windows 7 are sold out? How can you "sell out" of a product that hasn't been manufactured yet? Sorry, I'm calling BS on that one."

I predicted this "sell out" a few threads back with essentially the same comment. It is BS; the "limited availability" of Windows 7 is a lame marketing ploy, which would be funny if the bait and switch was so pathetically transparent.

I suppose I should be pleased that Microsoft has made it hard for XP users to switch to Windows 7.....so much the better for switching to Leopard or Snow Leopard. Why, you can switch to SL and still run XP in Fusion or Parallels. Thank you Microsoft for helping Apple! (BTW, both Fusion and Parallels will import your existing XP installation over a network connection. So that migration is, incredibly, easier than the move from XP to Win7.)

July 14, 2009 10:22 AM
 

meason said:

@Mike

RTM is important.... I would think especially to people like Paul who write books on it.

For Me? not so important but it would be nice to know they have locked it down and it's ready to ship.  

July 14, 2009 10:25 AM
 

techman.merb said:

@Mike G

RTM is very important to me. I have many clients thinking of upgrading and I would like to have the final code in my hands asap so that I can test it out with my clients' applications to sort out any problems before the product is available for installation.

Every week that goes by is lost testing time for me, especially in the quiet summer months when doing this testing is preferable to trying to find time to do it when business starts to pick up in the fall. If I had a firm date for RTM availability, I could plan out my testing in advance instead of having to fit it into my regular schedule which will be quite busy once Sept comes around.

I'm aware that I can and have been doing tests with the RC but as we all know, some things can change drastically between the RC and RTM.

So yes...it is important to some of us.

July 14, 2009 10:27 AM
 

Saucy said:

@pthurrott

Calm down, big breath, even bigger ..yup .. now have a cup of java, pardon the painful pun .. Windows 7 will RTM when it RTMs ..

.. Windows 7 will RTM when it RTMs

.. Windows 7 will RTM when it RTMs

.. Windows 7 will RTM when it RTMs ..

..it's all good, don't worry .. they'll probably get you a copy early anyway ..

July 14, 2009 10:28 AM
 

sjaak327 said:

The exact time of RTM is hyped at the moment, this is certainly not due to Microsoft. They have been open as much as they need to be. Yes they will call RTM somewhere this month, that's all we really need to know, that also includes the press. After RTM you will get  your hands on an actual copy (be it through MSDN or Technet or other means) and they you will have still enough time to write a book, as the release date is october 22, which is still over 90 days away.

And all those Russian Wzor's and Chines uploaders, are fuelling the hype. I guess Microsoft might think it is a great thing, and I guess they might be right. When Microsoft finishes that process, they will tell us.

They probably wanted to do that yesterday, but apparently something came up, tough luck.

The in place upgrade is not a big deal, in fact, I believe that it would be foolish to do an in place upgrade from XP to Windows 7, and take with you the bagage of the OS that has been installed X years. Especialy since XP to Windows 7 is a major deal, much more technical complex then for insance from Windows 2000 to Windows XP.

July 14, 2009 10:37 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Well... Several people have listed why they think RTM is important to them but they've been "It's important to me when Windows 7 is available in the x channel" and that's a totally different thing. And those channel dates have been pretty much all announced by now.

The one remaining reason was that people who write books about the OS like Paul would care but reality is that what people writing OS books (And I've done that so I do have some insight) care about is when the product is feature locked. Whether that visually unchanging and feature complete version has been sent out to the various distribution systems really does not matter. At this point nothing changes but version numbers and any last minute critical bug fixes.

Again, no reason to care about RTM or not.

July 14, 2009 10:44 AM
 

subzerohitman721 said:

Paul,

Bravo. Agreed with every single word.

@mikegalos

"Paul, and anyone else who thinks RTM is important...

Why?"

Because changes to Windows is a big deal to the potential 1.2 BILLION customers who use Windows and might possible upgrade. There are plenty of unanswered questions and as Paul spelled out, there is plenty for potential customers to know. So monitoring builds is important, not for the "Joe Users' out there, but for the guys like myself dealing with people upgrading.

"Seriously. Why? The release dates are set. Everything that deals with you is set. Unless you are on the Windows team, why on earth would you care about daily builds?"

Because perhaps those companies oh such as nVidia, ATI, Creative, Logitech, HP, Dell, Viewsonic, Lenovo, Acer, Sony, Samsung, Toshiba, Asus, Epson, and good portion of the PC industry would like to test their drivers on completed RTM code. The faster they can get certifed drivers on actual code instead of pre-release code, the better it bodes for users. Any changes in the code is the difference between drivers or software working and drivers or software not working. I thought to someone who worked for Microsoft, that might be obvious.

"Paul

You say "communicating the completion of the next version of your most important product is not "a small thing." It's pretty much everything at this point in the game."

No. When it will ship is pretty much everything."

And meanwhile, Microsoft allowing the tech media, bloggers, and other people to fill in the sounds of Microsoft's silence. Its the same silence that helped Apple with the Mac vs PC commericals that swayed public opinion. Instead of being proactive in providing the answers that obviously they should have that the products is mere weeks away from finishing, we've got Paul Thurrott, Mary Jo Foley, Ed Bott, and many others doing the best they can. Can you really be so hard on them for wanting the answers? Is Microsoft that busy they can't have Steven Sinofsky or some other member of the Windows 7 Team fill out a simple F.A.Q. that might take him at most an hour?

What internal processes are left to be done (and that is what RTM really does mean) is really so "Inside Baseball" that NOBODY cares except for dueling bloggers trying to break the build number for some wierd ego fest.

I think anyone writing a book might want to be sure. Or perhaps security vendors or experts who are identifying bogus versions loaded with malware. Or perhaps those who might want to record chronologically what each version and changes might be.

Seriously. I'm waiting for anybody (not on the Windows team) to provide ANY reason for caring.

I think I've provided enough answers and so did Paul too. Instead of ponies, perhaps you should use your connections at Microsoft to (cough) Pony up the answers?

July 14, 2009 10:54 AM
 

Windows 7 Blog » Microsoft, not bloggers, are responsible for lack of clarity around Windows 7 RTM said:

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July 14, 2009 10:54 AM
 

Saucy said:

@sjaak327

"The in place upgrade is not a big deal, in fact, I believe that it would be foolish to do an in place upgrade from XP to Windows 7, and take with you the bagage of the OS that has been installed X years"

Exactly!

By forcing a clean install and a re-do of all the apps etc. a heck of a lot of junk, viruses and malware will hit the bit bucket of history for good. Smart move Microsoft.

July 14, 2009 10:55 AM
 

sjaak327 said:

" Because perhaps those companies oh such as nVidia, ATI, Creative, Logitech, HP, Dell, Viewsonic, Lenovo, Acer, Sony, Samsung, Toshiba, Asus, Epson, and good portion of the PC industry would like to test their drivers on completed RTM code. The faster they can get certifed drivers on actual code instead of pre-release code, the better it bodes for users. "

Fully agreed, however I think it would be much worse if Microsoft would finalize their RTM code without proper internal testing. The fact that they seemed to have planned to announce RTM yesterday, might indicate that they have found a problem in the release, now I'm sure all the companies you list would be pleased if Microsoft took their time, one or two weeks delay is no big deal. Latest end of the month, they got RTM.

July 14, 2009 11:06 AM
 

Dipsh t Admin said:

"so much the better for switching to ... Snow Leopard"

Unless you have a PowerPC...

And Paul, you know better.  Supporting a 8 year old OS and expecting to do an in-place upgrade is not exactly a trivial or recommended process.  The changes between the two are quite large, and heck, I've had enough troubles even installing SP3 on some XP machines, let alone a full on upgrade.  In this case, while it would be great for them to allow this type of upgrade, it really is the best thing to do.  And as Saucy just spoke, it gets rid of the years of gunk that we all know XP generates.

As to the rest of the rant, I think you have some valid beefs.  They have been very dodgy about this, but it may be because they aren't ready yet.  I'm sure they don't want to declare a RTM build and later find out that it really wasn't final.

July 14, 2009 11:10 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Subzero

No. You haven't provided even a single reason why you care about RTM. You've provided some about whether the OS is feature complete (and that milestone got passed LONG ago)

Do you really care whether there are 1 remaining or 3 remaining bugs that are going through the test pass to make sure they're fixed? I doubt it. You might care that they be fixed before you get a copy but not how many there are in a specific build on a specific day.

Do you really care whether build 123456 is RTM or 123458 or 123454? The one that does ship is the one you'll get and not the others so who cares about builds you'll never see.

Do you really care whether your OEM gets 2 days more or 3 days less in their build test from the last drop they did? Do you even know what their build process is? Do you know if they have any outstanding driver bugs? How about what their deadline is for updated drivers from their suppliers? Don't know that? Then why do you care about how many days they may have if you don't even know what they need?

Seriously. NOBODY here has shown ANY reason why they care about internal build process.

Including Paul.

July 14, 2009 11:13 AM
 

kent909 said:

More and more as time goes by and MS makes announcements and or non announcments I am glad I made the switch to Mac. It is facinating to watch MS take what appears to be a fine product and find ways to screw things up. Even the last Windows Weekly podcast sounded more like Macbreak Weekly.

July 14, 2009 11:14 AM
 

adamb1000 said:

The reason RTM is important is because it finishes off another major developement cycle.  The testers, developers and everyone are concerned that MS will put the best build out there for RTM because it will be the first impression users get of Windows 7.  

I can kinda relate to what Steven Sinofsky said in that RTM is a point in time, Windows 7 will never stop being developed in the near future.  There will be people always working on it and I think that was the message he was trying to convey.

July 14, 2009 11:14 AM
 

techfan said:

meason wrote: "...it would be nice to know they have locked it down and it's ready to ship."

Yep. I've been  following 7 since pre-beta, beta, rc. I just want to know the damn thing is locked and ready to ship. I'm not waiting breathlessly for the news, but, hell, I just want to know. Nothing wrong with wanting to know.

July 14, 2009 11:14 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

OT, but since you asked:

"FCP, I've never used it, but if it's so damn good, why aren't they porting it to the Windows platform? Besides, did they (apple) actually write this?"

Simple answer: FCP drives the sales of Apple hardware.

Apple bought what became FCP from Macromedia, just as they bought Shake, and other components of the FCP suite from other companies. They've since updated and rewritten those programs (and, incidentally, dropped the price, in some cases by several thousands of dollars).

Not that it makes any difference. Microsoft Word was originally a Mac-only program, and the Mac-only PowerPoint was bought by Microsoft from a company called Forethought (I still have the original Forethought PowerPoint floppies in a drawer somewhere).

July 14, 2009 11:24 AM
 

lotsamystuff said:

Mikeygalos should also keep in mind that Paul has a laundry list of questions in this post that go beyond the RTM issue. There are plenty of "reasons for caring" about many of them.

July 14, 2009 11:26 AM
 

chuckb84 said:

Dipsh!t,

(and I enjoying writing that ;) )

""so much the better for switching to ... Snow Leopard"

Unless you have a PowerPC..."

Since I said -switching- the reference was clearly to Windows users, not people who already have a Mac.

I'm pleased that Microsoft is "sold out" of Windows 7 upgrades, as hilarious as that is, just as Paul pointed out.  I'm also pleased that they'll make the XP>Win7 transition harder.

There's are another nice Apple commercial in those two things and I hope they take advantage of the opportunity.

July 14, 2009 11:37 AM
 

de Silentio said:

Mike: "Seriously. NOBODY here has shown ANY reason why they care about internal build process.

Including Paul."

While I cannot speak for Paul, as a "news blogger" it is important that he reports the news that his readers or potential readers want, regardless of their reasons for wanting the news.  That's reason enough for Paul to care.  People want it reported.  And if they don't read it here, they'll read it somewhere else and Paul will loose out on site visitors.

Thank you, Paul, for caring about all of this stuff, even if I or any other posters here don't.

July 14, 2009 11:44 AM
 

sjaak327 said:

"as Paul pointed out.  I'm also pleased that they'll make the XP>Win7 transition harder.

There's are another nice Apple commercial in those two things and I hope they take advantage of the opportunity.

"

Maybe the first, the second, no chance in hell, if there is one company that has shown that they don't care about backwards compatibility it's apple,

I really want to run Snow Leopard on my 4 year old G5, but instead of having to do a clean install (the horror !) I need to buy a new machine...

You must be joking.

July 14, 2009 11:48 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

Lotsa

Microsoft Word was originally an MS-DOS program that was on the market in 1983 before there even was a Macintosh.

Word was based on Charles Simonyi and Butler Lampson's work on the Bravo word processor at Xerox PARC in the mid 1970s. You know, back before Wozniac started making motherboards for the Homebrew Computer Club and long before Jobs decided he was going to dedicate his live to being an arbiter of fashion.

July 14, 2009 11:52 AM
 

techman.merb said:

@chuckb84

So you actually think that because people may have to pay an extra 50 bucks or so to buy 7, they will change their mind and decide to drop about $1500 on a MAc instead? Spend $1500 to save $50? Yeah, that makes sense. Thought processes like that explain why you are a Mac fan.

July 14, 2009 11:52 AM
 

mikegalos@msn.com said:

de Silentio

"While I cannot speak for Paul, as a "news blogger" it is important that he reports the news that his readers or potential readers want, regardless of their reasons for wanting the news.  "

And that's certainly reason enough for Paul to mention one day something like, "Microsoft announced that Windows 7 hit the RTM milestone today". And I fully expect that.

What isn't rational is the long diatribe on how awful and potentially disasterous it is that Microsoft isn't giving daily if not hourly briefings about the internal milestones. That's just wierdness.

July 14, 2009 12:02 PM
 

Ocean said:

>>According to you, Paul, Windows 7 is just a fine-tuning of Windows Vista.<<

No, he's said that it's worthy of it's own name and branding.

Why is everyone else obsessed with what Apple does?  It started with the first post.  

Paul, nice rant.  Informative too.  Thats one of the ways a blog is supposed to be different from mainstream journalism.  And keep launching the trolls into outer space, please.

Subzero, nice post at 11:54 AM .

July 14, 2009 12:20 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"Any changes in the code is the difference between drivers or software working and drivers or software not working."

It's not that cut and dry actually.

When Microsoft determines which version of the WDK is "complete" (they continually update it), the code for that version will determine driver certifiability.  THAT's what OEM's are looking for.  Hardware manufacturers can get WHQL driver certification on pre-release operating systems.

July 14, 2009 12:22 PM
 

Computers ! » Microsoft, not bloggers, are responsible for lack of clarity around Windows 7 RTM said:

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July 14, 2009 12:23 PM
 

Ocean said:

Mike, other than the debatable RTM thing, Paul said:

"how is it, exactly, that we should trust what you write if, a) we can't trust everything on the Internet, and, b) you get so much wrong?"

and

"Why are you, Microsoft, railing against bloggers when you don't even get it right?"

and

"There is so much more wrong here. I have so many questions."  followed by the questions.

You have any thoughts on the rest of his arguments?

July 14, 2009 12:26 PM
 

Dipsh t Admin said:

And chuck, as many have said before, and will continue to say, (even Mac fans will say this if it suits their needs), many Windows 7 "upgrades" will be sold as new computers.  Joe and Jane sixpack that gets infected with malware (and coming to a Mac near you, you guys shouldn't be so smug) is not the user that is going to install an OS upgrade.  They'll just buy a new one when it gets slow enough.

And if you really cared about the reasons why they don't allow XP->7 upgrades, you'd know they are actually doing those users a service by giving them a much more stable environment.  Paul gets this wrong too, and he knows better than that.  While Paul and people in IT can manage the process and the endpoint expectations, the average user can not.  Let's remember once again, that XP is 8 year old technology.  This has been a point that has been pointed out by the Macerati for years, about how the technology is old.  Suddenly, boo frickety hoo, now it's no longer old.

And chuck, let's remember, from a monetary standpoint, we already know you Mac guys are getting way more hosed than we are.  If you decided to forgo the widely reported buggy Leopard, contrary to what rj might say, the $29 upgrade doesn't apply to you.  Heck, they won't even give you a free upgrade to SL if you purchase a computer now.  The nickel and diming (or should I say 9.95'ing that Touch users are very familiar with) of Mac users is well known.  I'd like to see what the resale value of your PowerPC Mac's are now, after you guys have crowed about how great they were and how OS X still runs great.  The 6 GB savings will be of little consequence to those users who now are forced to upgrade if they want to the latest and greatest.  And you show me a company that supports a mainstream OS as long as MS does.  

FWIW, I do agree with you and Paul concerning the sold out status of the preorders.  It doesn't make any sense.

July 14, 2009 12:30 PM
 

Ocean said:

>>the sold out status of the preorders<<

Actually, sold out is probably a bad term...but I'd bet the idea is right.  MS is missing out on some cash by selling them for the pre-order price.   Shareholder fidelity would demand that they limit the amount they sell for the lower price.

July 14, 2009 12:33 PM
 

RobertC said:

Ocean, those arguments are futile frolicks in the wind.

Microsoft is under no obligation to disclose internal milestones and if it chooses, in a vain PR exercise, to discredit the reliability of bloggers and the internet in general, then so be it.

If this were Apple, they'd have already sued and silenced the person who dared to leak internal information. I hardly see what is so surprising, or wrong, with what Microsoft has done. They've muddied the waters - so what? Paul is treating this as if people worldwide are literally hanging over every last word put out by Microsoft PR. It's as if his sense of the real world is in temporary abeyance.

July 14, 2009 12:46 PM
 

chuckb84 said:

techman,

"So you actually think that because people may have to pay an extra 50 bucks or so to buy 7, they will change their mind and decide to drop about $1500 on a MAc instead? Spend $1500 to save $50? Yeah, that makes sense. Thought processes like that explain why you are a Mac fan."

It's not the dollars, it's the inertia. If XP>Win7 is dead simple, it's easy to commit to the upgrade. If the XP>Win7 process starts to sound like as much hassle as switching to a Mac (which will run XP in a virtual machine) then people can at least consider the option. A fundamental rule of marketing is that you NEVER let your users consider a "clean paper" option if you can help it.

I'm not saying many will switch, but, hey, 1% marketshare is a 25% gain for Apple.

I AM saying---and agreeing with Paul here---that Microsoft has not provided an easy upgrade path for the biggest group of potential customers, those still on XP.

July 14, 2009 12:54 PM
 

Ocean said:

Robert...why does Apple keep coming up?

Pauls argument is pretty succint:  Tell us, or tell us you're not going to tell us.  And stop bashing us for wanting to know.

MS is doing to polar opposite.

Pauls words:

"while Microsoft is preaching "clarity" in their OS, they've been anything but clear in communicating what's happening. In fact, they've actively and sometimes even purposefully muddied the waters."

July 14, 2009 12:56 PM
 

Ocean said:

>>1% marketshare is a 25% gain for Apple.<<

Why are people talking about Apple in this thread??

July 14, 2009 12:57 PM
 

reactionary007 said:

Judging by the pre-speech transcript stating that 7/13 it was done and then having them change it to some time in July for the actual speech - it seems like maybe they found a showstopping bug that they need to clean up, recompile, and test before officially going RTM.  If they came out and said that, there would be too many questions.  Maybe easier to just say we never promised a date and it will be done when it is done.

July 14, 2009 1:03 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"Microsoft Word was originally an MS-DOS program that was on the market in 1983 before there even was a Macintosh. "

You are correct sir. What I should have written is that the current incarnation of Word owes its look and feel to its Mac heritage. Certainly it resembles the Mac version of Word much more than the MS-DOS Word that was a pale imitation (and I used both in the same time period).

July 14, 2009 1:04 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"It's not that cut and dry actually."

The phrase you're looking for is "cut and dried" (or "cut-and-dried" when used as a modifier).

You're welcome.

July 14, 2009 1:06 PM
 

RunTimeError said:

Oh mikegalos.

If this was Apple and Snow Leopard you'd be all over them like a cheap suit all while applauding Paul, defending him against the likes of robertsjoe, and ranting and raving about Apples lack of transparency.

You never fail to amuse me sir.

July 14, 2009 1:06 PM
 

chuckb84 said:

Dipsh!t,

I appreciate the polite tone of the reply and will reciprocate.

"as many have said before, and will continue to say, (even Mac fans will say this if it suits their needs), many Windows 7 "upgrades" will be sold as new computers.  Joe and Jane sixpack that gets infected with malware (and coming to a Mac near you, you guys shouldn't be so smug) is not the user that is going to install an OS upgrade.  They'll just buy a new one when it gets slow enough."

That's likely true and even better from my perspective. If Microsoft forces people to buy a new computer to get Win7, that's an opportunity for Apple. Cost comparisons of hardware aside, some XPers will defect. A lot compared to the ~70% marketshare that XP has? No, but some will.

"And if you really cared about the reasons why they don't allow XP->7 upgrades, you'd know they are actually doing those users a service by giving them a much more stable environment.  Paul gets this wrong too, and he knows better than that."

A pathway that would make sense would be to do a clean install of Win7 and then the installer could automatically set up the "XP in a virtual machine". Of course, Microsoft hasn't included that in all Win7 versions, and I have frankly lost track of that morass. Apple did something like this with the OS9>OSX migration, called "Classic" and it "just worked".

"we already know you Mac guys are getting way more hosed than we are.  If you decided to forgo the widely reported buggy Leopard, contrary to what rj might say"

As John Papola has pointed out many times, paying for something voluntarily is not a tax, or a ripoff, it's a transaction. I willingly pay for what Macs cost because I see value in it. You willingly(?) put up with byzantine versioning schemes, bait and switch feature inclusion/removal, and here today, gone tomorrow "sold out" upgrades. If it's worth it to you, fine. I just gently say that there is a better way.... 

"FWIW, I do agree with you and Paul concerning the sold out status of the preorders.  It doesn't make any sense."

It's money. Microsoft decided to cap the number of upgrades they would sell. What makes it funny is the language they use, "limited availability", "sold out", etc.

July 14, 2009 1:09 PM
 

subzerohitman721 said:

Mike,

I find it a bit funny that we have folks here who attack Apple for their private approach to development, yet its just fine when Microsoft does it. Microsoft doesn't have to tell us, but if they truely want "clarity" or for a better word, "transparancy." You can't have your cake and eat it too. So what is the harm of showing some interim builds or showing people the process from start to end? Is that part of the process? What harm are you really doing? The answer is none. Its about being honest and taking care of your customers.

The answer to all of your question is painfully obvious.  YES.

I do care. Maybe its not so obvious or you're just plain dismissing it. But many on here do.

Why?

Simple.

Because we're ultimately going to end up paying for it.

If customers don't get the answers or treated badly, customers don't pay for it. Perhaps many people end up getting fed up and don't pay for it. Then it would mean a great deal, if people decided to jump of the Windows bandwagon. Microsoft was at one time at 93% of the market, its down to 88%. What goes up can quite easily come down. Just look at Internet Explorer's marketshare. That easily could be Windows.

Since you come from that environment, its those kinds of answers and attitude that end up losing customers. If MIcrosoft keeps up this game, it doesn't matter how good Windows is, folks will find any alternative and leave. Ubuntu, Chrome OS, Mandriva, Kubuntu, Apple, etc. Plenty of choices. I would think that someone who frequently sides with Microsoft, would be a much kinder and better representative of their interests. If you are representative of MIcrosoft culture, you're leaving a bad taste in a lot of user's mouths.

July 14, 2009 1:17 PM
 

Ocean said:

Why are we talking about Apple?

July 14, 2009 1:20 PM
 

EricoF3 said:

Paul : This is iSwallow that begin to talk about iWork compare to Office not me!!

I just reply to iSwallow off-topic message...

Off-topic message call off-topic reply!!!

July 14, 2009 1:21 PM
 

EricoF3 said:

Paul! Mike Galos is right... RTMs are internal stuff... The only things important is when it will be released...

July 14, 2009 1:22 PM
 

sjaak327 said:

"A pathway that would make sense would be to do a clean install of Win7 and then the installer could automatically set up the "XP in a virtual machine". Of course, Microsoft hasn't included that in all Win7 versions, and I have frankly lost track of that morass. Apple did something like this with the OS9>OSX migration, called "Classic" and it "just worked"."

Nah it didn't "just work". In fact it was awfull, slow and very very unstable. Yeah it worked for a few programs, for many others it didn't. We at my workplace made due for about two months, and then pull out hard cash to get OSX compatible programs. Font support was confusing for the users as well (quite important if you're doing DTP). It wasn't a viable solution, end of story.

But of course we are not talking about going from one version of the OS to the other, Vista is the previous Windows version, and upgrade is fully supported there. So the comparison is moot.

To be honest I cannot believe anyone would critice Microsoft for not allowing upgrade from XP to Windows 7, especially if you remember what happened the last time when people upgraded from XP to Vista. Anyone that knows even a small bit about computer software and OS, would know that the number of applications that people have installed on XP (virus scanners, dvd burning software just to name two examples) will not run under vista, unless they are updated, people who did the transition to Vista have done so, it is not likely that many people on XP did so.

Guess who gets the blame if the upgrade fails ?

July 14, 2009 1:27 PM
 

EricoF3 said:

subzerohitman721: This is not armfull this is juste not necessairy!

And this is not a matter of taking care of customers, Its a matter of internal R&D busyness...

Nooooop! Microsoft don't loose market down to 88% ... Sorry but I think Microsoft is increasing its market part... Near to 93%

An, also, don't judge all Microsoft do just because of a comment from one individu working at Microsoft...

July 14, 2009 1:29 PM
 

meason said:

@Mike

"feature complete" means absolutely nothing.  I am a developer and we regularly add new features right up to the very last chance we have to get it tested and added to the version going live (as in a web site).  NOTHING is ever feature complete until its burned to a gold master or moved into a production environment.

are you going to get major core changes, heck no.  But for all anyone knows MS could have actually decided at the last minute to rewrite calculator for all we know.

July 14, 2009 1:30 PM
 

meason said:

further, if I know the RTM date. when some piece of software bombs out on release day on Win 7, I know exactly how long for sure the provider has had to fix the issues... such as when for vista the wait for zonealarm was months

July 14, 2009 1:31 PM
 

Saucy said:

@pthurrott

"Why don't you support in-place upgrades from your single biggest customer group (XP users)? You could upgrade from XP to Vista."

Not supporting an inplace upgrade is the best move Microsoft could make right now.

Millions of those XP machines are infected to the nines - forcing a clean install is one smart move in my opinion. Billions maybe trillions of malware bits will hit the dust forever rather than live on to infect the more secure Windows 7 systems.

Sure, people will have to have their product CDs and keys handy, but most do. Better that, than continue to act as some criminal's bot.

It's time to trim the fat a bit, Paul, and Windows 7 is doing it.

July 14, 2009 1:50 PM
 

dugbug said:

@meason,

Lots of us here are developers, including myself.  The amazing scale and impact of a windows build means developers are kept far away from the RTM code.    

Language pack tweaks may not even get in at this point.

-d

July 14, 2009 2:00 PM
 

kent909 said:

Ocean said:

>>1% marketshare is a 25% gain for Apple.<<

Why are people talking about Apple in this thread??

---------

As humans we resist pain. This is painful enough to drive some of us to Apple or stay with Apple and say good bye to Windows once and for all.

July 14, 2009 2:06 PM
 

kent909 said:

Consider this. I just learned that those who purchased Vista Ultimate are going to pay the same upgrade fee for Win 7 Ultimate and are going to lose features. When Win 8 arrives there will be no Ultimate. Money money money, just give us your money, cause your ingnorant and don't realize you have a better choice.

July 14, 2009 2:09 PM
 

Microsoft, not bloggers, are responsible for lack of clarity around Windows 7 RTM | The Software Nook said:

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July 14, 2009 2:24 PM
 

meason said:

@dugbug

very true, but saying something is "feature complete" does not mean that something will not be added.  Perhaps they have not announced RTM because a feature still in process of making it into the final build.

July 14, 2009 2:48 PM
 

lketchum said:

@Paul,

Gosh, it's hard to know where to begin with this one....

I'll start with: "You are kidding us, right?" (I sure hope so)

I listened to you, Leo, Mary Jo, and Raphael's last Windows Weekly netcast on Saturday. You guys spent a lot of time obfuscating available facts around Windows 7 - everything from versions to release dates and costs were clouded and it seemed to be intentional.

To me, only the self-aggrandizing petting exceeded the sophomoric snark-fest disguised as information. Entertaining? Yeah. Informative? I don’t think so.

I realize that anything one experiences in any type of media is first and foremost presented to generate a profit for those on the production side of the equation. Admittedly, my expectations regarding informative material being presented is tempered by that understanding. I get that.

I just wanted you to know that I and the people in my company monitor such net/podcasts and blogs like this, so we can identify and prepare to help customers traverse the rivers of bovine-scatolotgy that a great deal of it represents to us. We understand that the objectives can't be to simply inform and educate, but to also entertain and promote (even self-interests). As I said, we get it and do not fault or blame you or any other pundit.

That said, "dang" can ya'll at least be a touch more creative about it? Just a little more sophisticated so the more seasoned (read old) members of the audience aren't made to feel like we have to shower with bleach when it's over?

July 14, 2009 3:05 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"To me, only the self-aggrandizing petting exceeded the sophomoric snark-fest disguised as information. Entertaining? Yeah. Informative? I don’t think so.

"I just wanted you to know that I and the people in my company monitor such net/podcasts and blogs like this, so we can identify and prepare to help customers traverse the rivers of bovine-scatolotgy that a great deal of it represents to us. We understand that the objectives can't be to simply inform and educate, but to also entertain and promote (even self-interests). As I said, we get it and do not fault or blame you or any other pundit."

OK, for everyone that's criticized my use of the English language, you now have a new target. I shall sit back and enjoy as you fling your arrows in the direction of "lketchum" from this point on.

Really. Wow.

July 14, 2009 3:19 PM
 

Saucy said:

@kent909

I wonder if Ultimate / Enterprise is turnng out ot be a bad idea altogether. Ultimate / Enterprise features should be rolled back into Professional / Business and then Ultimate / Enterprise should be allowed to die. It doesn't seem to be serving the customers all that well.

My Ultimate Extras movie desktop would balk and freeze, although I must admit Tinker was fun, it all seemed under-attended to by Microsoft.

Ultimate / Enterprise might have been a good idea around the planning table but it turns out it doesn't cut it all that well, few want it,  and it should die, IMHO. Professional should be fashioned to fill any gaps or voids.

I'm surprised Microsoft didn't kill it with Windows 7.. maybe they will yet. IMHO, if it is possible to upgrade Windows Vista Ultimate to Windows 7 Business one should do that unless there is some Ultimate / Enterprise feature one must have. But that's just my opinion and it doesn't seem to count for much lol !

July 14, 2009 3:20 PM
 

Saucy said:

@lotsamystuff

I actually like lketchum's use of  "bovine-scatolotgy". Nice way of saying it, lol.

July 14, 2009 3:22 PM
 

lotsamystuff said:

"Paul : This is iSwallow that begin to talk about iWork compare to Office not me!! I just reply to iSwallow off-topic message... Off-topic message call off-topic reply!!!"

Let's all give a Supersite welcome to the author of http://origamiboulder.com/

July 14, 2009 3:22 PM
 

de Silentio said:

Mike: "What isn't rational is the long diatribe on how awful and potentially disasterous it is that Microsoft isn't giving daily if not hourly briefings about the internal milestones"

Paul's post was not about the disaster of not giving a date on RTM, it was about communication.  

Furthermore, the post was hardly irrational.  I am no fact checker, but I think everything in the post is accurate.  If the goal of reporting is reporting the truth, then paul rationally accomplished his goal with this post.  It is informative, accurate, and aggregates a slew of events and mishappings with the Win7 launch.

Again, Paul, good job on this article.  Thank you for bringing me the news.

(disclaimer: If Paul's post is not accurate, I will gladly reatract my statement.)

July 14, 2009 3:25 PM
 

Twitted by windows7center said:

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July 14, 2009 3:41 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"Let's all give a Supersite welcome to the author of origamiboulder.com/"

You need about 20 to wipe up that "bovine-scatology" coming from losta's mouth.

July 14, 2009 3:42 PM
 

Waethorn said:

When it appears on www.microsoft.com/msppdd , I'll grab it.  Until then, I'm not worrying it.

O/T:  Office SharePoint Designer 2007 is now free?  When did that happen?!

July 14, 2009 3:46 PM
 

EricoF3 said:

Saucy has a point here!!

July 14, 2009 4:02 PM
 

rr0de74@live.com said:

I agree with Mike and Paul.  First Mike, seriously there is a tiny minority that really cares about RTM date, very tiny.  Joe Users does not, and corporations are not going to rush out Windows 7 they day they get their hands on it.

@subzero HP, Dell and others are done with their drivers at this point, if you dont think so your crazy.  First off its been stated by the Windows team for a long time now that 7 is driver compatible with Vista.

I agree with Paul that the whole thing is a total confusing mess.  With many versions, many ways to acquire 7, many upgrade paths (over the top for Vista, clean install only for XP).  Now MS throws in what 8 versions of Office 2010?  Someone at Microsoft needs to stop the insanity.  

July 14, 2009 4:03 PM
 

jbs221 said:

Thanks Paul for voicing the "Ultimate Screw." I am an Ultimate Fool and got what I deserved (hey I even have a box signed by someone with Bill Gates signature stamp!!)  Having been around since DOS and Windows 1.0 (I remember working in a PC store and the owner got the box and we all stood around while he loaded it up on a 20MB hard disk (ST-225).  WOW those were the days, and didn't MS charge like, $20 to go from DOS 6 to 6.2?? They knew a bug fix/sweetening was not a full upgrade. 7 is a refresh and bug fix of Vista, that all. Heck more gets removed than added. That pricing should have mimicked Apple. Especially for Vista owners, just like Apple Snow Leopard is cheap for Leopard owners, not Tiger. It's showing loyalty to your customers AND respect. Obviously MS has a lot more to learn. Or maybe, we do.

July 14, 2009 4:12 PM
 

lketchum said:

All,

We could (as I think we should) separate the single point in time when a software product is done - and released to manufacture (an easier date to fix - if that is so important as some have made it out to be), from how the product is presented to the market.

If we agree that perhaps Microsoft has in effect, achieved the technical goal of completing Windows 7 and it has met all the goals management has set for the product in the context of features and completeness, we might arrive at a fixed date and call it, as is customary, the RTM build.

If we next consider and debate how the product is to be presented and managed as it exits RTM and makes its way through a wide variety of sales and technical support channels, it becomes much easier to appreciate how granular, and indeed, unique each path might be. Equally, it is easier to understand relevance and context as it might apply to ourselves and our customers (allowing us to shape our own communications appropriately).

I assess that what we are seeing is a product of the intentional merging of two spheres of influence, which only serves those making money off of the process of describing that which others do. A dichotomy of interest that is not hard to understand, is being leveraged for the purposes of distributing information as entertainment - and in the process, defining how the blogosphere differs from journalism.

Not saying it is all bad. I am saying there seems to be money to be made from fogging it all up for those of us that have to play cleanup.

July 14, 2009 4:16 PM
 

shark47 said:

"Thanks Paul for voicing the "Ultimate Screw." I am an Ultimate Fool and got what I deserved (hey I even have a box signed by someone with Bill Gates signature stamp!!) "

I don't know what your expectations of the SKU were. I got Vista Ultimate and am pretty happy with it. If the only reason you got Ulitmate was the Extras, then yes, you would be right in referring to yourself as the "Ultimate Fool".

Vista had a couple of service packs, which fixed bugs. They were released FREE of cost. So, I'm not sure what it is that you're complaining about.

July 14, 2009 4:24 PM
 

shark47 said:

"With many versions, many ways to acquire 7, many upgrade paths (over the top for Vista, clean install only for XP).  "

I'm pretty sure you mean retail version, because all PCs ship with just one version. There are three retail versions: Home Premium, Professional, and Ultimate. Ultimate is a special SKU that is only aimed at enthusiasts and "Ultimate Fools".

July 14, 2009 4:27 PM
 

jbs221 said:

I got some nice compliments on this at the Win 7 upgrade blog. Thought I'd share it here too. Hope y'all like:

Apple Upgrade Commercial 2009 (RC1)

PC:  I'm a PC

Mac:  I'm a Mac

PC: Hi Mac, looks like it's time to do that upgrade thing again!

Mac: You're right PC, I've got a new cat coming, Snow Leopard!

PC: Me too, I've got a new number coming, 7!

Mac: Sounds like a good number!

PC: Yup, you betcha! I can't wait. I have Ultimate too so I'll be getting 7 ULTIMATE!

Mac: I have Leopard so I'll be getting Snow Leopard.

PC: My upgrade is only going to cost $219! What a deal for THE ULTIMATE!

Mac: Really PC? My Snow Leopard is only going to cost me $29?

PC: <Shocked> That can't be!?

Mac: It's true.

PC: Come to think of it, I'm going to have to get the Mrs. one and PC jr. one also. That'll be $657.

Mac: Well, for my wife and our three Mac minis it's only going to be $49.

PC: <turning a bright shade of red> FOR ALL OF YOU!!!

Mac: Yup, you betcha!!

<Fade to Apple Logo>

July 14, 2009 4:36 PM
 

realtestman said:

jbs221, yes you are the "Ultimate Fool", for not looking at what features exactly the Ultimate edition offered and deciding that you wanted it cos you wanted the best feature-complete version of Windows.  In fact I bet that the additional features that the Ultimate edition had over the Business/Home Premium weren't used by you whatsoever, so why did you buy it?  Fool.

July 14, 2009 4:38 PM
 

shark47 said:

This is the problem with having such a long beta process. Windows 7 had a lot of positive press for months. Now you'd be hard pressed to find any positive articles. The excitement has died. Most people in the tech circles (bloggers, journalists) have been using Windows 7 for about 7 months now (maybe longer).  The OS has been feature complete for a while now, so people are focusing on the only unknowns - RTM date, pricing, upgrade paths, etc. Sad, because it truly is a good OS.

July 14, 2009 4:54 PM
 

Backup77 said:

Paul

I agree that Microsoft has not communicated the impending RTM of Windows 7 as well as it could have. I would have thought that a high percentage of the people that comment on your blog have test run Windows 7 either as Beta or RC and have been extremely impressed with its performance. In that regard I am interested to know the release date of the final version and so should all Windows users and tech enthusiasts alike. If you cannot get excited about the release of Windows 7 then maybe you should be using linux.

July 14, 2009 4:57 PM
 

Backup77 said:

shark

You have made a good point. The fire has died as time dragged on which is a pity as I agree it is high quality OS.

July 14, 2009 5:00 PM
 

Dipsh t Admin said:

Wae, Office Sharepoint Designer has been free for a few months now.  Where have you been? ;)

jbs, while funny, and I'm sure Apple is going to go in this direction, the average user is NOT going to get Ultimate.  They will get Home Premium.  If they purchased it during the unnecessarily small window, they could have purchased it for $49/each (or less at some outlets).  And I'm sure you've heard of the family pack licensing that Paul and others have brought up.  Of course, MS can't win with this.  If they price it too high or overcharge, Apple fanatics will show how their $29 upgrade (if they are on Leopard and if they have an Intel based Mac) is available and chide MS for not offering it at the same price point, or offer family pack licensing.  If they do offer it, these same people, sometimes even nearly in the same day, will chide MS FOR offering it, and will gloat how Apple thought of it first and that they are "copying".  So they can't win either way.  Apple will make their commercials that feed these fanatics, the earth will still spin, and there will still be 1 billion plus Windows users in the world.

"You willingly(?) put up with byzantine versioning schemes, bait and switch feature inclusion/removal"

Yes, willingly.  Upgrading one to Home Premium for $39, and one to Pro for $89.  

Two versions are byzantine?  And since 90%+ of home users will only ever need the Home Premium version, and will only ever see that one.  Average Joe and Jane sixpack will only see one version, and that will be the one loaded by the OEM.

What is bait and switch with features?  I don't remember them taking out any features that were promised.

So chcuk, thanks, I've already found the better way.  And to temper this with a tayme like zen, I'll say it is the better way for me.

July 14, 2009 5:09 PM
 

kingzilla said:

Bravo Paul for giving MS this well deserved tounge lashing for the RTM fiasco. Apparently they found some last second show stopper and yanked the planned July 13th release, which is fine if they would just own up to it, rather than playing it off like a latter-half July RTM was planned ALL along, all other info being "blogger rumors" (yeah right). And what's with the MSDN/Technet download availability WEEKS after the announcement of RTM? No practical purpose for it, the bits are finalized. Why not just post it to MSDN the same freaking day? No reason, other than some marketing bozo's decision. Argh, very little learned from the Vista release debacle.

July 14, 2009 5:47 PM
 

Saucy said:

@jbs221

The only thing is is that Apple has been charging its customers almost $139.00 / yr for the past 10 years for each and every service pack.

Besides, *most* home users of Windows are running Home versions which are considerably less expensive than Ultimate. As a matter of fact, Windows 7 Home Premium upgrade has been available until very recently for pre-order at just 49 bucks.

All said, I've sort of put the lie to your made-up dialogue.

And in other words, Macs suck.

July 14, 2009 6:17 PM
 

Mrwirez said:

@ PT

I enjoy the WW show, big fan. .. Anyway, I agree with you 100%. It must be especially hard to finish your book, without the finished product or date.. This maybe the best OS yet but, MS should treat all customers especially the ones that are helping them indirectly the best. [i.e. testers and blogger's]...  They should also cut everyone a little break during these hard times, not just Australia.. Good Luck. Don't even get me started about ULTIMATE. That is a joke.

It should ship as follows:

Professional

Business

Home Premium

Netbook

Starter

PS.Screw the EU!

July 14, 2009 6:28 PM
 

Mrwirez said:

PSS. Is Leo a commie yet?

July 14, 2009 6:31 PM
 

rr0de74@live.com said:

@shark  I agree the fire has died.  To much hype too early.  Apple held Snow Leopard details close and then spit out the ship date and price, plus a feature review 4 months before you could buy it.has only let out real.  The low price and single version are only going to help roar out the door for Mac users.

Microsoft really needs a good "handler".  Like Apple's PR/Marketing/Advertising or not, its effective and almost always so.

July 14, 2009 6:46 PM
 

truffoo0 said:

@Waethorn:  SharePoint Designer became free at the end of May.

On topic:  On the communication issues, Paul is correct that Microsoft have dropped the ball.  The fact when it RTM's doesn't really matter to most poeple is a different issue.

The intention appeared to have been to announce RTM at the WPC keynote.  Obviously something happened (likely a show-stopper bug) that meant they had to hold off RTM announcement and go through final testing of a new build.

Ultimately though, independent of what their intentions were at WPC, they have said that it would RTM by the end of July.  If it comes August and no RTM, then we have grounds for concern.  As it is now, all this is hot air and fuzzy ink that is really pointless (other than highlighting the communication mess).

July 14, 2009 7:18 PM
 

irtehpasty said:

I love how MS continues to say that there's most likely malware in the leaked builds.  Sometimes they're right, and they have to say that for business reasons, but a big majority of the time they're wrong.

When a fake build or virus infected build is leaked, within a few hours the whole internet community knows and removes any links to the build in question so people don't get infected.  MS seems to miss that.

July 14, 2009 7:21 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"Office Sharepoint Designer has been free for a few months now.  Where have you been?"

Not busy building SharePoint websites anyway....

But then, my business is primarily system building, while IT service offerings are produced through business partnerships with solution companies.

Not that there's anything wrong with SharePoint.  In fact, I work with several partner companies to offer custom-designed SharePoint websites as "cloud-in-a-biodome" intranet webapps.  I just never noticed that the editor was free.

SharePoint is awesome though.  Office SharePoint Server is a bit much for most of the SMB clients that I have at the moment, but the basic templates for Windows SharePoint Services are pretty nice.  Information workers can do practically everything in their day job "online" (on their corporate intranet) with a few well-designed forms and a backend data service on SharePoint.  Add in OWA and customers have been doing "cloud computing" for several years now - but also in an internal, managed, and well-controlled environment, unlike an externally-hosted offering.

July 14, 2009 7:29 PM
 

Waethorn said:

"When a fake build or virus infected build is leaked, within a few hours the whole internet community knows and removes any links to the build in question so people don't get infected."

That didn't work for build 7777.  It's still hosted on many-a Bittorrent site.

July 14, 2009 7:29 PM
 

J.T.Durden said:

I've been coming to the Supersite for years now, and in all that time I've maybe missed a total of a hand few of articles/blogs post from Paul, which considering the number of posts in the past few years, I've read about 99% or more of everything on this site.

Through  this time I've also noticed the comments posted, and the "regulars" who seem to take pride in having some sort of  "authority" (or pretending to at least) on the comments section of a Windows/Microsoft blogger site. Some people bring up good points, some people just digitally shake their fist in outrage that their "authority" isn't recognized as the best, but all in all it's really just sad and disturbing.

The fact that after all these years of being silent that I'm actually joining in on this daily trouser snake measuring contest, is quite sad as well, but I accept this shame for what it is.

Of course there is something appealing to this site, if their wasn't I wouldn't still be coming here, and I would assume the rest the readers would've migrated elsewhere as well. I would only guess that the repeat comment "authorities" here must find some enjoyment bickering back and forth or else they too would find something else to do with their hours of time each day. I for one do not come to this site for childish word fights and name calling. I hate the fact that I am actually writing this comment, but I hope in the end it might do some good.

What I do come to this site is for information on Windows/Microsoft products as well as other Windows/Microsft related items. Do I care how any of these products effect anyone's emotion status? Absolutely not. So when I see Paul or even commenters having an emotional break down over such trivial items, I lose confidence in their judgement and even to their ability to simply report information. It may not be easier for the one who are emotionally driven to recognize their own state of being, but most level-headed outsiders see it clearly.

Now, as other obeservers have already stated in comments, there is reasons why bloggers like Paul and other are having these exaggerated emotional responses. Whether a conscious decison or not, these bloggers (and commenters as well) feel that there is an actual issue that must be brought to attention to the masses. For bloggers constantly searching for something to post, I can see why not having the most up to date information could be felt as frustrating. Also, if blogging some how relates to their income and thus well being, I can see how it could almost feel like a direct attack on their own life, hence the emotional response. I doubt many people would look at them selfes so intensely/extremely like that, but I happens in everyone's life, whether they are aware or not. So, to the blogger, yes it may seem despartely important, but like like getting a food lodge deep in your esophagus feels like imeadiate danger, it really isn't a threat, and by staying calm you can have a much better outcome.

I bring this up, not so much for the commenters I pity, but for Paul. I understand why you have some outlandish opinions from time to time, but honestly they haven't done you much good. If you're worried about the future as a successful blogger, especially when you speak of other instuites breaking information vital to your success, then fine be worried, but don't turn that worry into an emotion distraction. Stay level headed and please stick to reporting... oops sorry... blogging on the technology out there, not the mental issues you create.

July 14, 2009 7:29 PM
 

robertsjoe said:

July 14, 2009 8:01 PM
 

Backup77 said:

@Waethorn

You are right. The dodgy links on torrent sites usually dissapear in a short space of time. I didn't know that there was a build 7777, interesting.

July 14, 2009 9:29 PM
 

andycadley said:

"Promotional copies of Windows 7 are sold out? How can you "sell out" of a product that hasn't been manufactured yet?"

People who pre-order are expecting their copy to arrive on, or at least very close to, the day of release. Clearly there are only so many discs that can be produced, packaged and shipped by that time and only a proportion of those can go to pre-orders (unless Microsoft actualy lanched something without having stock available for retailers to sell!) Hence its really quite easy to sell out of pre-release copies.

July 14, 2009 9:50 PM
 

shark47 said:

"Why are you punishing the biggest group of Windows users by making the Windows 7 "upgrade" more difficult for them? "

And yet they rewarded them by making the $49 upgrade available to them too. So, the glass is essentially half full... or half empty, if that's the way you want to look at it.

"Argh, very little learned from the Vista release debacle."

Actually, it is the Vista debacle that has caused them to resort to these extreme measures. This isn't a battle Microsoft can win. It's a case of "damned if they do; damned if they don't."

July 14, 2009 10:12 PM
 

benjwah said:

Paul, you are exactly right!

And I have to say I sympathise with your plight as an author and as a tester.

And good on you for calling BS on their "most of the interim builds have malware": They can attempt to avoid piracy all they want, but I've never figured out why people think that they can just make up lies to support their case and then think their case is stronger as a result.

It's the old "weed-makes-you-a-serial-killer" thing.

If you tell people one thing (the interim builds almost all have malware in them) and then they find out that that's not true, they are much less inclined to believe your words in future. In fact, they're unlikely to listen to your advice ever again, because you've proven how happy you are to lie.

I, for one, only bothered downloading the official builds, and honestly haven't had more than a spare second for RC1 (which annoys me, it looks great, I just haven't had time to use it- I'm not going to run my Pro Tools production environment on Win7-RC1 unless I've got spare time to waste, and lately I haven't) but I've been disappointed by Microsoft making some of the same old mistakes, almost all of which you have vented about today.

The Ultimate screwing, the pricing bullcrap (If MS wonders why their stuff gets pirated, I can get them of a photo of the pricetag on Windows Vista in Australia- it's all they should need to know).

No XP upgrade? Are they on crack? That will ensure two things: 1). Windows 7 will be heavily pirated (or more heavily pirated than it otherwise would have been). 2). Machines built with XP shall remain with XP. I'm sure that's great for general internet security.

Anyway Paul, good on ya, you vented for me too.

July 14, 2009 11:54 PM
 

sjaak327 said:

@benjwah:

"No XP upgrade? Are they on crack? That will ensure two things: 1). Windows 7 will be heavily pirated (or more heavily pirated than it otherwise would have been). 2). Machines built with XP shall remain with XP. I'm sure that's great for general internet security."

Yes there is an option to upgrade XP, ie. pay a lower price, it's the same then the upgrade price if you come from Vista.

You only cannot preform an in place upgrade, hardly something that would lead to pirating.

July 15, 2009 2:29 AM
 

Karitku said:

I really feel like Paul has no clue about business users. NOBODY does upgrades on desktops, period. Classic example is huge corporation that splitted in 2 different companies they did full clean wipe on and they DIDN't even upgrade! I been doing half dozen upgrades in business users and they always wipe desktops. Home user, well they buy NEW computer with Windows 7. 97% of all users do that, only 3% and bloooogers care about upgrade change. Please Paul  go outside, meet real people without Twitter and avoid the freaking smuck air of Silicon Valley.

July 15, 2009 3:33 AM
 

Saucy said:

@sjaak327

This is just a guesstimate, but with Win 7's Home Premium's lower price and real world lower performance requirements, the purchase of retail upgrade boxes will go up, not down.

Who wants XP's viruses carried over to the new installation anyhow? I think that *not* having an inplace upgrade available for XP to Win 7 is a good idea. Most people have all their product discs in some drawer anyway. And because the Win 7 clean install will reformat the partition, a heck of a lot of malware will hit the bit bucket of history right there. IMHO, the promotional pricing should have continued until January just to encourage people to get on board.

July 15, 2009 3:43 AM
 

A Verdade por de tr??s do Windows 7 RTM said:

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July 15, 2009 5:25 AM
 

sjaak327 said:

@saucy, sure, I just quoted a post, maybe not clear, I fully agree, the clean or wipe install on XP is a brilliant idea, and complaints about it are silly to say the very least.

And indeed as mentioned by Karitku, in the business world nobody cares, they image machines,never upgrade.

To be honest, unless you have a non bloated Vista install, clean install is by far the best choice.

July 15, 2009 5:39 AM
 

shark47 said:

"@shark  I agree the fire has died.  To much hype too early.  Apple held Snow Leopard details close and then spit out the ship date and price, plus a feature review 4 months before you could buy it.has only let out real."

Sure. That would have worked for Microsoft. Paul et al are taking Microsoft to task because they aren't communicating every little detail, every minute of the day. What makes you think an Apple like secrecy would work for MS?How many people are complaining about not receiving a beta for Snow Leopard? Or an RC? I would say Microsoft should send out a check for $29 to anyone that has complained about stuff like the exact date of the RTM and not matching Apple's pricing. (Have you even seen Snow Leopard to decide that Windows 7 is the same? If Apple had said it wasn't, would you feel the same way?) These people are more of a distraction than a help. Microsoft needed people that made the product better for the entire Windows community, not people that complained about inconsequential things like this. Bloggers have "jumped the shark" on this one.

July 15, 2009 6:38 AM
 

AeroXperience » Blog Archive » Why all this fussing over builds is meaningless said:

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July 15, 2009 9:28 AM
 

AeroXperience » Blog Archive » Rafael accidentally discovers Trident in Windows 7 E said:

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July 16, 2009 10:44 PM
 

Paul Thorrott???s All Worked Up Over Win 7 RTM » random process | charlie 2.0 said:

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July 19, 2009 10:24 PM
 

Will the 'real' Windows 7 testers please stand up? | All about Microsoft | ZDNet.com said:

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July 22, 2009 7:37 AM
 

Microsoft, not bloggers, are responsible for lack of clarity around Windows 7 RTM | Everything Microsoft said:

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July 25, 2009 11:54 AM
 

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