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Even though 7 has not been RTM yet...Microsoft should want to clear this up as soon as possible, if for no other reason thatn to avoid some of the bad publicity that, right or wrong, gave Vista the black eye that it had. Hopefully they do so...and soon!

--tayme

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Maybe we are unclear on the process because Microsoft is unclear on the process.  Granted, by now they should have upgrading to Win7 figured out, but who knows.

No one has got any final version, least of all Microsoft themselves (seeing as they haven't RTM'd yet), so why the worry over how upgrades is going to be done?  Stuff like this will be communicated in a timely manner and not when internet journalists stamp and shout and moan about it.  Don't get your knickers in a twist, you'll hear before anyone outside of Microsoft gets a copy of the final disc.

"If you have to go back and reinstall Windows 7 for whatever reason, you'll have to both reinstall the previous operating system and put in a call to Customer Support. That's because the key to said operating system--the one that Windows 7 checks for activation--would no longer be valid. To put it bluntly, the Windows 7 upgrade experience shoots itself in the foot the first time you run it."

This is a joke, right?

Why do people put up with this kind of sh1t? Seriously?

I'll give Microsoft credit for this much: They've spawned a whole cottage industry of techs making a living off average people that can't begin to comprehend the complexities involved in what should be a very simple process. Remarkable.

Even though I agree that this is ridiculous, to Microsoft credit they kind of have no choice.  MS has to ensure that you are upgrading a valid copy, otherwise people will upgrade illegally.  Piracy is a big deal, maybe not in the US or EU, but in countries China it is.

I have an honest question, how does Apple deal with piracy?  Do you have to "activate" a Leopard or SL when you upgrade?  Are things changing with SL?

This is why I have no qualms about sometimes using BitTorrented copies of Windows when the activation system gets in my way. I pay for Windows, I'm not cheating Microsoft out of any money. However, I am paying for an operating system, not an activation system. I need to get work done and don't have time to spend on the phone with customer service, typing in a bazillion digit number only to have it connect me with a person who then asks for that same bazillion digit number all over again.

I think the activation system probably saves Microsoft a tiny bit of money due to reduced piracy - but what does it cost the company's reputation due to increased customer frustration?

I think I've finally come around to the idea that Microsoft should just sell one version of Windows, a full version, sans activation - for $99. Since most copies of Windows are sold at a reduced price with PCs anyways then they really aren't losing anything. And they'll probably get more people to upgrade to the newest version when it comes out which should help reduce the cost of supporting older versions. This one version of Windows should just contain everything Windows Ultimate has to offer - and maybe even a copy of Opera to boot. ;-)

de Silentio, Snow Leopard will be the first time in ages that upgrades have been an issue for Apple. Each new cat version through Leopard has been a full version--no upgrade pricing. (The same has been true of the iLife and iWork products.)

Snow Leopard is $29 for Leopard users. A different and more expensive package is available for Tiger (and earlier, but why?) users. I believe the Snow Leopard from Leopard install wants to see Leopard (or Snow Leopard) running.

What is activation? What is a product key? (Apple made the family packs available in hopes that people wanted to be honest at fairly low cost. It seems to be working.)

Meanwhile, Microsoft really does need to clarify things. People like Paul, Rafael, and Ed Bott shouldn't have to clarify things for them. You are right that Microsoft faces a different problem than does Apple (which for 99+% of Mac OS X users has supplied the hardware).

. --John

Effectively communicating? Yes, no? Hmm - don't know.

I can say it's is not clear how certain scenarios are going to work yet.

Maybe when the time comes Microsoft will make it clear as a bell. If not, then I will visit WinSuperSite.com and get the skinny from the guy who has an in with them.

Is there somebody here that had any problem with a Windows Upgrade process in the past???

Not me !! so I really don't understand the pertinence of this discussion!!!

I don't really see where the issue is.

Windows 7 Home Premium will come with Image Recovery.

So in the first instance you install Vista, activate, then install the Windows 7 upgrade and then finally create an image restore. Restoring from an image takes 14 minutes on my Win7 RC build. So it's a one-off hassle.

I keep my files in seperate folders on external drives, as I don't want to create weekly restore image files.

"I have an honest question, how does Apple deal with piracy?  Do you have to "activate" a Leopard or SL when you upgrade?  Are things changing with SL?"

None of that nonsense is necessary, since it will only (theoretically) install on Apple hardware. If you have multiple machines, there's no need to buy a "Family Pack" unless you want to have a clear conscience and do the right thing. as "johnbaxter" points out, it seems to be working.

Why bother with making upgrade media?  Most consumers don't buy the full Retail non-upgrade version of Windows.  OEM's and enthusiasts buy OEM versions.  Big corporations buy volume licenses and big PC makers have their own deals.

MS wouldn't lose much money by selling Windows 7 for the upgrade price but like Apple have it be a full version.  The goodwill would gain them a lot of good karma which would (hopefully) translate into more sales/income.

At this juncture, yes.

The communication has been effective enough.

It is evolving and we're well enough away from Oct 22nd for issues to be resolved.

Fogging up the mirror won't change the underlying reflection. In aggregate, all the ground clutter is not helping - it's hurting and worse, it's not even fun to watch.

I'd rather see a discussion around concurrent development - develop once, use many and strategies around that and what is likely to come out of it and to what benefit to business and consumers it may present.

One employees contradiction of the stated policy may be much ado about nothing. Since we're dealing with a release months away some confusion about this issue from an organization the size of Microsoft is understandable. If we still don't know whats going on in August than that will be another story.

Mike Galos arriving to tell us MS can do no wrong in 3...2...1...

Windows, take note:

<Apple upgrade method here>

-OR-

<Ubuntu upgrade method here>

Those are simple, with the only real uncertainty being side-effects of changed software. Your upgrade process is a mess, or the information about it is. Get it together!

Come on Ocean, I thought you had issues with me and Mike trolling earlier this week.  Do you hold yourself to a different standard or are you just plain stupid?

de Silentio:

Lets talk MS, not about other posters.

Sorry, I lost my cool again.  Please, lets talk microsoft, not about other posters.  Although, your post was about another poster and not Microsoft.

@Ocean - "Mike Galos arriving to tell us MS can do no wrong in 3...2...1..."

2 hours later...

@Ocean - "Lets talk MS, not about other posters."

Talk about an attention wh0re.

--tayme

Tayme, got anything to say about MS and how it communicates?

"Mike Galos arriving to tell us MS can do no wrong in 3...2...1..."

He's boycotting Paul over that "Microsoft copied Keynote" comment.

Did MS copy Keynote?

@Ocean - Read the first post in this thread. I have already stated my opinion. You, on the other hand continue to make a fool of yourself.

--tayme

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"continue to make a fool of yourself"

Tayme, do you make it a habit to converse and argue with those you consider to be fools?

I don't think had a communication problem with Vista -- I think they let the bloggers and Apple (via those commercials) get out ahead of them.  

I'd bet Apple has something planned for Windows 7 too.  

@Ocean - Yes, I find it relaxing to point out foolishness when I see it...especially when it is so obvious and on a Friday afternoon. Enjoy your weekend.

--tayme

Boy am I ever sorry I switched to a Mac. I am missing out on so much fun.

@Ocean-- I'd bet Apple has something planned for Windows 7 too.

This is like shooting ducks in a barrel.

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In a word, No.

When it comes to the update and validation from version to version of Windows, any criticism is justified. It just seems like Microsoft always takes the ass backwards approach. All of these schemes called WGA to keep Windows from being pirated just don't work. Yet Microsoft persist in shoving this down our throats. I think Paul, this is the one thing you need to complain more to Microsoft on. I really do hope in Windows 8, we can finally convince Microsoft to find another way to validate without making legit users feel like they are being punished.

This is the one area where Apple and other vendors certainly has a leg up on Microsoft.

Microsoft is not communicating effectively on several fronts, the Windows 7 upgrade process being one of them. I have found not just Windows Activation but also Office activation very trying. I have paid for genuine versions of Windows & Office Products alike but even after activating these products I get peppered with annoying alerts stating that I am not using genuine software. I wholeheartedly agree with Microsoft trying to stamp out piracy but there has got to be a better way.

It's funny that Microsoft is silent and it's the bloggers that are creating this mess. One blogger makes a statement, claiming to have heard it from an anonymous source and another contradicts it based on a tip from another anonymous source. Funny!

Yes, Microsoft needs to communicate more effectively, but this is ridiculous. The tech blogosphere operates like the stock market - entirely on speculation. One day, bloggers are pissed off about Windows 7, the next day they're excited about it.

I was a die-hard Microsoft fanboy and evangelist until around 2000 when product activation was introduced in to Office and then Windows XP.  As a tech enthusiast, I often experiment with things and then need to wipe and re-install.  At that time, I was denied an activation code by telephone support because I had "re-activated too many times" on one and the same machine, and the phone rep didn't believe that I was only re-installing on the same machine.  Suddenly, I couldn't use the software I'd paid for and was using legitimately.

This drove me to pick up a cheap, second-hand Mac and start exploring "the other side", and since then I haven't looked back.  Every time I install a new version of the Mac OSX operating system and even Microsoft Office for Mac, I note how they don't make you jump through any activation hoops at all, and I think back to my Windows XP and Office for Windows experience.  

I think I understand why Microsoft (and other companies) use activation to try to stop piracy, and it is their choice to do this, but they lost me as a supporter and customer as soon as they decided I was being a pirate when, in fact, I wasn't.  I've played with Windows 7 on my Mac, it looks really good, but as long as activation is part of the equation, I'm not buying.  I'm guessing other people might feel the same way.

How many of you find airport security lines painful? How many times have you said, "I'm not a terrorist. Why am I being punished for something someone else did?" I don't think too many people would say that. Lives are at stake, after all. Piracy has never killed anyone (as far as I know), so you guys are less willing to tolerate anti-piracy measures from Microsoft. Piracy is the same as shop lifting or any other form of theft. People aren't paying for the services that they receive. Whether you like it or not, Windows is the most pirated OS in the world.

Could Microsoft's activation technology be improved? Sure. It;s obviously not working because piracy is still rampant. But, considering the improvements in Windows 7 over Windows Vista and Windows XP, do you really believe Microsoft is out to screw the user?

Regarding Paul's question, no, Microsoft is not doing a good job of communicating the Windows upgrade process. But then, neither are the bloggers. There's something really wrong when an anonymous tipster has more credibility in the blogosphere than the company COO.

Shark,

WGA doesn't stop the serious pirates; it just annoys the honest customers. BTW, the Kabuki theatre at the airports doesn't stop terrorism, it just makes the sheep feel like the government is "doing something". Someday this will be very painfully demonstrated.

The main point here, however, is that Microsoft is letting others define the issue and the story. Paul has correctly encouraged them to take control of their own narrative and they aren't doing it here. I don't think they can really DO that correctly, because their leadership is such a mess, but in this case they aren't even trying.

Ooh, not anonymous tipster, but a "Microsoft source". Same thing.

"Paul has correctly encouraged them to take control of their own narrative and they aren't doing it here. I don't think they can really DO that correctly, because their leadership is such a mess, but in this case they aren't even trying."

What? Do you have robertsjoe write your posts now?

Controversy generates page views (and ad dollars).

I'm not saying Microsoft is in the clear here. Windows activation is painful. Yes, it doesn't stop the serious pirates. Cameras in a store don't stop a serious thief, but the fear of getting caught does prevent some people from shop lifting. Similarly, people don't follow traffic laws because they want to, but because of the fear of getting caught if they break them. Do you think the FBI warning and anti-copying technology on DVD movies stops serious pirates? These are all measures to make the average Joe think twice before downloading software from a torrent site.

Is there a better way to implement the technology in Windows? Probably. But our anger should be directed at those who pirate software or commit crimes. FWIW tt is they who are making the lives of the rest of us (Windows users) more difficult.

If the hassle described in that post is true, that is ridiculous. When one pays the ripoff price Micro$oft is charging for Windows 7, you should at least get an easy and pleasant experience in return.

I thought I was saving money by pre-ordering two copies, but I have some qualms now that the upgrade version is quite possibly a piece of crap. Maybe I'll have to buy system builder discs or something.

I have to agree wholeheartedly with chuckb84, on both points. Shark, I see your point too. The concept is called deterence. The idea is to use the fear of being caught to deter someone from doing an illegal act.

However, the problem with the DVD antipiracy and Windows Genuine Advantage, is both the same problem. You're treating the paying customer more like a source of piracy, when the real target should be pirates that copies the disk, supply the illegal media, and collect the money for cheap copies. Thats the real target.

If you think its bad with DVD's and WGA, just look how far it goes with Blu-Ray's built in DRM.

There has to be a better way. What's even more ridiculous is the idea of "activating too many times." Hard disk fail, computer's fail, and you're allowed to transfer licences between machines. Yet none of these factors phase Microsoft at all. All it does help fester anti-Microsoft feelings, but only Microsoft has only itself to blame with a very bad DRM scheme and high OS prices.

"There has to be a better way. What's even more ridiculous is the idea of "activating too many times." Hard disk fail, computer's fail, and you're allowed to transfer licences between machines. Yet none of these factors phase Microsoft at all. All it does help fester anti-Microsoft feelings, but only Microsoft has only itself to blame with a very bad DRM scheme and high OS prices."

Yes. Its obvious that there is an asymmetry between the Macintosh and Windows business models here: Apple sold you the hardware, so they can take a very relaxed attitude and avoid an onerous activation scheme. Microsoft has a different problem; that's clear.

However, it's been repeatedly stated here that nearly all Windows OS sales are those preloaded on a new computer. Many Windows OS sales go to businesses. Businesses and OEMs aren't going to engage in wholesale piracy; the risks are just too high. So, what's left? A few percent of sales that are retailed to individuals. How much money does Microsoft lose to piracy to individuals?

Countries with no clear history of not respecting intellectual property----a circumlocution that basically means "China"---are a different story and a difficult question.

Nonetheless, I think Microsoft has it wrong. The WGA scheme is a royal pain in the butt for honest customers (and I'm one of them!), and no deterrent for the piracy that really costs Microsoft serious dollars. I don't know the solution, but the current scheme costs Microsoft a lot of lost good will and gains them very little in preventing piracy.

On the upgrade reinstall question: Why not have the upgrade installer require both the old and the new serial numbers and let it go at that? I've used other software that works that way, and it is a pain, but much less of a pain than what MS seems to be doing.

"Mike Galos arriving to tell us MS can do no wrong in 3...2...1..."

Actually, I was waiting for an intelligent comment but that didn't happen...

While we wait, I would like to point out the following two numbers for your consideration as we celebrate the 40th Anniversary of Apollo 11's flight to the moon:

Percent of people who think the Apollo moon landings were faked: 6%

Percent of computer users who use Macintosh: 3.5%

Don't OEM PCs come pre-activated? I think the user only has to register, which is also optional, I believe. I might be wrong.

This is a problem that affects people like Paul, who constantly test out new versions.

Percent of people that think Mike Galos is an MS loving fanboy loser with no life except patting MS on the back:  100%

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