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Opera: "We think everyone should be offered a choice of browsers"

They already are. Microsoft has never stopped you.

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Come on! Where's the post about Microsoft biggest loss in history!? If it had been Apple (or Google), you'd be all over it like a cheap suit.

As one of your occasional visitors that uses Opera as their preferred browser, I'd rather see it listed as one of the options.

I don't imagine many would choose it, but that's fine I'm not particularly convinced it's the best option for most... that's probably IE/FF. But it definitely has it's perks, and there are a few of us out there that far prefer it over the other options.

As for the people having spoken out against Opera... well, outside of you I don't think anyone actually cares enough about it in a negative sense to bother doing so.

Regardless, I sincerely hope this proposal goes through. This whole no shipping with a web browser in Europe is beyond ridiculous, every computer everywhere should come stock with a browser.

And the user having the choice of which browser?

Well, that's the ideal situation. No worries of IE or any other option being thrust upon anyone. No artificially boosted market share numbers.

It's actually a pity we wont get to see a similar choice being offered world wide.

And hey, as it's been pointed out, nothing stops you from CHOOSING it on your own if you like it that much, but why try to cram it down our throats when we choose against it?

It reminds me of the UAC file-delete prompts in Vista:

Are you sure you don't want to use Opera as your default web browser? [Yes.]

Choosing this action requires administrator privileges. Continue to reject Opera? [Continue.]

One more time for good measure, just to be safe, are you sure you want to reject Opera as your default browser? [YES, DAMN IT, NOW LEAVE ME THE @#$% alone!]

Hehe, we all have high hopes that Opera could be under those 0,5%, but EU commission will never allow it, they'll tweak the numbers or source or anything so that Opera gets to ballot screen... simply because they've pushed the case in the first place.

By these numbers and some other articles, it's clear that there will be just 5 browsers eventually:

- IE8

- Firefox

- Safari

- Chrome

- Opera

All others combined have around 1% total, so no way for anyone else to end up on ballot screen.

Anyway, I believe this setup to be unfair. First off, if it's a choice, than why give choice of just 5 browsers when dozens exist out there? Ok, make top 5 clearly visible, and put all others on the other page or something. But if you want to make things fair, than make a choice complete, so anyone can add their own browser to the selection list. This way, if it's 5 browsers, it's same as it was with just IE. Although small share, other browser besides these 5 DO EXIST.

Just to be clear, I'm all against this EU case completely, but if they do force MS to offer others, I sure don't want just those few to be added. What if a year from now a browser start-up appears? Don't they have a right to get their "fair share" in the ballot, just cos their percentage was 0% on this date? there are many more questions here...

The Register has an article about the publishers of Opera complaining about even this options because the IE icon gives MSFT too much of an advantage. Sounds like they won't be satisfied unless there's a big arrow that says "Click Here" aimed at their spot on the menu.

It's interesting the that the usually fanatiically anti-Microsoft crowd thinks that this whole episode is really stupid and is even sympathizing with the evil empire.

RJ is right about this,

"Come on! Where's the post about Microsoft biggest loss in history!? If it had been Apple (or Google), you'd be all over it like a cheap suit."

Paul would have a huge headline about any negative news on any Microsoft competitor. Why, just the rumor (which has since been shown to be wrong) of a "12% decline in Apple sales" was major news. A few other snippets:

"Apple Posts Another Strong Quarter, but iPods Slide"----that's Paul describing Apple's stellar financial results. And we also got this gem,

"PC Sales Fall Less than Expected, Apple Takes a Hit". Of course, this is the opposite of the truth.

But, not even Paul can ignore the Microsoft crash entirely, so if you look hard, you'll find

"Microsoft Financials Nosedive

Microsoft on Thursday announced some pretty horrific quarterly financial results. For the quarter ending June 30, 2009, the company posted a $3.99 billion profit on sales of $13.1 billion, representing drops of 30 and 17 percent, respectively, from the same quarter a year ago."

One paragraph in "short takes" on Wininfo.

Compare that coverage to what we got for the now famous cartwheel man, with the  LOL! coverage here. Did we hear about the 24% increase in Apple sales month-to-month after the latest round of laptop hunter ads? We did not.  Or, Microsoft quietly correcting the price claims with an edit to the ads? No.  Sure is LOL!, eh? More cartwheels, definitely.

Any reporting on the overwhelmingly negative reaction to Microsoft stores? No. The -hilarious- "Guru Bar' graphic, copying the Apple Genius Bar? No. The leaked layout of the proposed stores, showing them to be an absolute copy of the Apple stores? No.

Paul's "news" selection is roughly like Rush Limbaugh or An Coulter. Or, to put it in more ideologically neutral terms, it's propaganda, not news. The technical reviews of Windows remain extensive and in depth; he should stick to that. Any "reporting" about the industry, especially Microsoft's competitors, has reached a pathetic level of denial.

"RJ is right about this..."

Sure. And we now have it from the highest authority on the subject. RJ is simply trolling the site and now, so are you.

On topic, this is getting silly. Anyway, I hope we don't have a browser ballot here in the US. What is more important at this point (to me) is whether I would need an activated copy of XP/Vista to use the Windows 7 Upgrade Media.

I wouldn't even care if there was a browser ballot in the US; I know exactly what I'd do.  I'd do this if I was in the EU too.

When I get presented with the ballot, I choose IE and have that as my one and only browser at that moment.

When Windows is all done setting up, I use IE to go to the FireFox website, download that and install it, making it my default browser.

Now I have the two best, most commonly used browser on my system.

Simple, easy solution.

If grandma, grandpa, mom, dad, etc are incapable of doing that....well, that's why they have sons and daughters, to help them.

It would be interesting if Microsoft set Opera as the default browser in Europe.  We would then see how many would choose to download something else.  I would reckon about the same number who download a different browser now.

And I would like to see Paul do a post-mortem on the Microsoft Quarter with suggestions on improvements.  There has to be a better way.

4 of these 5 browsers come with Google search engine as the default. Isn't EU killing choice in the search engine space by increasing choice in the browser space?

@Goodthings2life: "nothing stops you from CHOOSING it on your own if you like it that much"

The ability to navigate to a webpage and download a different browser stops a lot of people from using browsers other than IE.  If you go to my 70 year old grandma and tell her that Firefox is much better, all you need to do is download it.  She will wonder what the hell you're talking about.

With that being said, I think it is ridiculous that Microsoft is being 'forced' to do this.  It seems to me that for some reason they were holding out with the "E" editions, then just gave in.

@Rand:  "every computer everywhere should come stock with a browser."

You are right, ever computer should come with a browser.  And for that matter every computer should come with a media player also, but the EU (EC?) ruled that Microsoft can't ship WMP with Windows.  

Their initial move to not ship IE was the right move, and it sort of follows the precedence set in the media player debacle.

10 browsers; too much, the top 5 would be better.

That's actually a good move on Microsoft to display the most widely used browsers (I'm thinking IE, Firefox, Safari and Chrome, in that order). I'm afraid though that a usage number is used and Opera is left out, Opera will be none to happy about it and this whole mess of Opera cramming down its browser down our throats will continue.

The best thing would be to get Opera in the ballot and watch the browser not gain any usage numbers. Hopefully then the EU will stop listening to Opera (but I doubt the former will stop harassing MS).  

(Why isn't Apple made to include this ballot??)

"Microsoft is proposing that users who set Internet Explorer (IE) as their default browser still will be allowed to choose other competing Web browsers to install via the ballot screen."

panache1023, the EU is making it easier for you to install as many browsers as you or your grandma, grandpa, mom, dad want all from one easy ballot screen.

Horrible evil EU.

@trieste,

I really don't care about the EU or the ballot.

@techfan,

How many times does this need to be said..  Apple doesn't have a monopoly in the OS space.  When they get convicted of having a monopoly, then they will be forced to do the same thing.  Why can't you understand that?

I'm not saying it's right or wrong either way, that's just how it is.

10 or less? There's 10 browsers out there? Really?

I'll take "Less" for 1000 Paul.

Even though the crap the EU is pulling with Microsoft is just that, crap, I like the idea of a ballot screen that lets you choose browsers.

Hell, they should just put back the custom install from the Win 9x days where you could pick and choose what apps you wanted to install.

"Their initial move to not ship IE was the right move, and it sort of follows the precedence set in the media player debacle."

The problem was that it wasn't going to satisfy the EU or Microsoft's competitors. (You can argue that nothing will and you'll be right.) The way Microsoft is performing now, it can't afford to pay $1bn in fines every couple of years. Microsoft is bending over backwards to accommodate the needs of the EC and its competitors. This hurts Microsoft and consumers and it's not going to stop either the EC or competitors from going after the company. Expect additional complaints from the likes of Google, Symantec, etc. a couple of weeks before general availability of Windows 7.

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mikegno

"It's interesting the that the usually fanatiically anti-Microsoft crowd thinks that this whole episode is really stupid and is even sympathizing with the evil empire."

But, apparently, the anti-Microsoft crowd on this blog comment area is even more fanatical than most.

I guess we got the fringe of the fringe.

"I'd advocate a boycott of Opera if I thought anyone was actually using the damn thing. I'm so tired of these complainers. Here's a new example why. The people have spoken, Opera. Please go away."

Luckily for us, last time I checked there isn't a world government that Opera could lobby.

"This whole no shipping with a web browser in Europe is beyond ridiculous, every computer everywhere should come stock with a browser.  And the user having the choice of which browser?  Well, that's the ideal situation. No worries of IE or any other option being thrust upon anyone. No artificially boosted market share numbers."

I see no arguments about other OS's coming with their vendor's preferred browser by default.

If you want to talk about artificially boosting market share, you only need to look at Opera, because that's their gameplay here.

"The ability to navigate to a webpage and download a different browser stops a lot of people from using browsers other than IE.  If you go to my 70 year old grandma and tell her that Firefox is much better, all you need to do is download it.  She will wonder what the hell you're talking about."

Does it really matter for those people?  I'd argue no.  You're only adding complication by forcing the user to decide.  They decided on Windows, so they got the whole package.

Hopefully the box will look something like: IE (recommended), firefox (NOT SUPPORTED), Chrome (NOT SUPPORTED), safari (NOT SUPPORTED), Opera (VIRUS)

@Waethorn: I agree, it doesn't matter for those types of people, I was just pointing out the fact that it isn't as easy to download a browser as some perceive.

@Shark47: The EC is screwing everyone, and making themselves look stupid, clearly.  The EC set a precedence with regard to MS bundling software, they should be able to recognize that precedence.

I have a question: Would it be wrong for Microsoft to pull Windows from all EU countries completely.  They wouldn't be doing anything morally wrong, for sure, or anything illegal, correct.  That would put an end to all of this EU nonsense.

"Would it be wrong for Microsoft to pull Windows from all EU countries completely.  They wouldn't be doing anything morally wrong, for sure, or anything illegal, correct."

Is there any legal precidence for a government NOT allowing a company to exit their market?

I'm sure the EU would say that Microsoft would be morally (and possibly legally) obligated to sell within their market, and that they have no choice.

I use Opera Mini on my new Blackberry.  It's better than the built-in browser.

And apparently a lot of people feel the same way about their own mobile devices:  it's the world’s most popular mobile Web browser with over 20 million users.

"And apparently a lot of people feel the same way about their own mobile devices:  it's the world’s most popular mobile Web browser with over 20 million users."

I would never trust a product that caches all browsing information at the vendor's datacenter though.  Opera Mobile doesn't do that, although they are making the push towards that end in future revisions.  Luckily they've said that it'll be optional for Opera Mobile.  For Opera Mini (the Java-based version) it's not optional.

The more interesting thing is that this is not the EU, but the EC acting on behalf of the people living in the EU in the interests of a company not based among its members - the exertion of its influence being applied to an international corporation not formed or operated within its legal jurisdiction, but subject to its regulation as such apply to goods and services sold within specific markets.

This is much more about establishing the legal basis for imposing not restrictions or rules, but the justification for the application of indirect taxes - in this case, excise taxes on a foreign corporation and doing so after the fact (hence actual fines or the threat of them) - making the taxation retroactive.

The interests of the people (in any land) is not the EC's concern. Revenue is. Even more interesting to me is that the men and women making up the EC are able to convince themselves and others that what they are doing is right and not ultimately harmful to the very people they suggest they are trying to protect and serve. It’s statist and dangerous and when it fractures ardent nationalism follows and Europe has a dreadful record of history when that happens. 1870 forward is downright colorful (to say the least).

""It's interesting the that the usually fanatiically anti-Microsoft crowd thinks that this whole episode is really stupid and is even sympathizing with the evil empire."

But, apparently, the anti-Microsoft crowd on this blog comment area is even more fanatical than most.

I guess we got the fringe of the fringe."

I guess that would be me, among others. Actually, I didn't state a position on this EU action in this thread, I just commented on the choice of topics and the striking absence of others. It is an interesting worldview that is very at odds with what you'll find elsewhere.

But, on topic, Microsoft is simply complying with the law. End of story. The EU reaction to past Microsoft behavior is a bit overdone, but then the past behavior was pretty bad. I don't think the particular issue is terribly important, because the EU, like many governments, is busy fighting the last war. However, making it clear to Microsoft that they WILL comply with the law is very important, even if you don't like the law or the enforcement mechanism in a particular jurisdiction.

To forestall the obvious rejoinder: I would have no problem if the EU enforces the same browser choice issue on Apple. They won't, because there is no reason to do so, but they might go down a similar road someday with iTunes. There have been rumblings about that, but nothing has come of it.

The suggestion that Microsoft just not sell its products in the EU is a great idea! Just the thing to do when you're about to launch a program (Windows 7) that you desperately hope will erase all memories of Vista. By all means, move out of a key market in a fit of pique just when your cash cow sales are down 33%. Not even Ballmer will do that.

"I would never trust a product that caches all browsing information at the vendor's datacenter though."

Why?  You think they have enough employees to sift through it and manipulate it in real-time?

Come on.

"You think they have enough employees to sift through it and manipulate it in real-time?"

It only takes one person to pull a password or credit card.

And of course... Opera STILL isn't happy about this, they said that they don't like the fact that company 'logos' might be used when picking the browser.... since so many people think of the internet as the big blue microsoft 'e'.... This has reached a point of such absurdity, that it's no longer even funny.

"Opera STILL isn't happy about this"

"LET THEM EAT CAKE!", I say.

or, if you want the Anglo-Italian response:

"Opera.  Just a bunch of f*$@in' mangiacakes."

"It only takes one person to pull a password or credit card."

Oh...well, I guess thats a point.  But I don't think most people are paying bills on their cell phones.  I just use it for reading the news...

@crank

There will be no pleasing those losers. They  had a jump on Firefox by years but still are irrelevant in the market, they won't be satisfied unless the EU mandates all EU citizens use their pathetic browser exclusively.

Actually it is funny, it shows how absurd the EU commission is and how people who live in countries who let the government run their lives from cradle to grave deserve what their handed. I never new Norwegians were such wimps, surprised they're not all using Macs.

"people who live in countries who let the government run their lives from cradle to grave deserve what their handed"

You do realise that comment is about as insane as they come?

How do you propose that people choose where to live? Should they implant women's wombs with an electronic "ballot screen" so that the babies can choose where to grow up?

Most of us living in Europe have not voted these complete dickheads into power

But I guess you must be better than us, because you're from the good old U S of A, right?

Jerk.

can I get IE or Firefox on my WII?  Opera  sucks on the Wii....

I demand Nintendo give me options!

All this fuss because of Opera. This company isn't even deserving of one tenth of this kind of press. Their browser has been nonexistent for the better part of a decade and half. The sad part is that many people in Europe didn't get to vote for Neelie Kroes, she was appointed by the EU. Yet this body is making decisions that really do not make any sense.

Of course nobody is denying that Microsoft did abuse its monopoly position and it deserves punishment for the offense against the law. However, I do think the EC went overboard with this and is dragging this on to protect Opera.

Also, Kroes has a bias towards open source software which I believe should have been viewed as a conflict of interest. That would be like appointing Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, or Eric Schmidt as the chief technology officer of the United States and expecting them to be objective in that position.

As for the ballot issue, I think its completely pointless. You can get a browser quite a number of ways. Its very easy. You can download the package and save it to several different media. I've done it at least 20 times or more. Its definitely not rocket science. This is where I'm glad we in the U.S. do not have to put up with this kind of crap.

"can I get IE or Firefox on my WII?  Opera  sucks on the Wii...."

I'd rather have Opera on the PS3 and/or PSP.  Netfront is probably the worst browser that is considered "current" on the market (and yes, it's much worse than even IE Mobile - at least websites detect that IE Mobile supports Javascript).

"I demand Nintendo give me options!"

I'd like to see some options where you can change the default search engine in many of the embedded web browsers like Netfront, and all the various incarnations of Opera on devices like the Wii, and Opera Mobile/Mini that's available for phones.  I'd rather see Bing Mobile search results than Google all the time, and you can't change the search fields because they're hardcoded to Google.

Oh, and regarding the PS3, at least Sony had the decency to update the Flash Player to version 8, so now, VP6 video websites like GameTrailers.com works ok on it.  Unfortunately, Javascript and CSS support is still in the turlet so it leaves a lot of sites off the compatibility list.

de Silentio said:

"The ability to navigate to a webpage and download a different browser stops a lot of people from using browsers other than IE.  If you go to my 70 year old grandma and tell her that Firefox is much better, all you need to do is download it.  She will wonder what the hell you're talking about."

Well, not to be a pain in the ass, but if I tell my 70 year old grandma that Firefox is better (just an example you gave, not my opinion) and she had it in her ballot screen - it would still mean NOTHING to her. Specially since you're the one that will probably set up her computer. And if YOU think FF is better, you'll download and install it.

So I agree with Goodthings2life - if you're too dumb or technically unaware/challenged to download and install Firefox, ballot screen will mean nothing to you either. Because all it does is simply "advertise" those 5 browsers, so people know about them.

Yes, it will slightly increase share of non-IE browsers simply because some people will click ANY of them, as they won't know what to do, or they'll just close the screen or will again call the IT guy to help them and he will tell them "click Firefox". Other than those, I believe very few examples, nothing will change much. There won't be sudden "magical" jump in non-IE browsers by 10% each in the browser market marketshare.

Why doesn't Opera just make their own OS to bundle their web browser with?  They could take Linux, which would cost them exactly jack and SH@T in royalties, strip it back to the core essentials, and plop their browser in.

Google already did that with Android, and they're doing it again with Chrome.

....oh ya!  Nobody gives a flying f#&% about Opera!

"Kroes has a bias towards open source software"

Opera is open source?  I had no idea!  Not that I care anyway.

Ok so we know the top 4 browsers will be IE, Firefox, Chrome, and Safari (likely in that order, except possibly the last two).

Microsoft says they'll feature the top 5 by marketshare and the rest will be listed below.

So what happens if Opera isn't actually in the top 5?  Maybe Konquerer will be there instead.  Is Opera going to complain that Microsoft isn't being fair yet again for not featuring the originators of the complaint?  ie.  Will they blame Microsoft again for their own lack of market penetration?

Um....what's the deal with Opera making an in-line mail client right inside the browser?  Shouldn't there be some kind of complaint against that?

Here's another question:

Does Google reciprocate on ad revenues based on market share value?

I mean, I'm guessing Google pays more to Mozilla than they do to Apple.  It's just that Google and Apple have more of a developer partnership than, say, how Mozilla just receives funding from Google.  Google is also on the list of partners for Opera.  Microsoft isn't, of course.

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Wae,

Opera is a proprietary web browser but its considered freeware. However, Kroes has in her comments and actions lead the charge to get rid of almost any proprietary software in the EU. Yet I don't even think they've done enough research to justify this action or realise that most of its citizens use proprietary software.

I just think someone with that kind of bias should not be incharge of something so important. If someone can be truely objective, that's a different story. I can't say the same about Kroes. It feels like a personal beef between her and Microsoft.

Robertsjoe,

Always appreciate your insightful thoughts on an otherwise FANatical board.

You may have missed:

Why win7 is doomed: www.roughlydrafted.com/.../the-vista-myth-why-windows-7-wont-turn-microsoft-around

Apples excellent results in this recession: www.computerworld.com/.../Apple_beats_recession_sells_more_Macs_touts_value_

subzero

I agree that Opera is a waste of space as a browser but I do believe in users having a choice of whatever browser they prefer to use on their system. I agree there are easy enough methods for obtaining a browser package to install when required. A bit of education would not go astray as a high percentage of users are so used to firing up IE when their system comes online and there are people out there that are not aware of browsers such as Firefox, Chrome etc.  

Even at elections of the political kind the candidates are allowed to place the party logo on the ballot paper. I, being a European citizen, will take great pleasure in clicking the blue microsoft 'e' and then using Internet Explorer to download an alternative browser, exercising my right to choose as I always have done while sticking a nice juicy finger up to the meddling parties.

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This really seems as if the EU has removed a freedom, rather than creating one. With IE installed, I can choose what I want instantly and I have the entire free world at a click of a mouse. I  missed how they are supposed to get a browser on their computer, so please enlighten me.

Thanks,

Doc.

I'm a very pleased Opera user and don't want to switch, but I'm not pleased in anyway with what they are doing over in the EU. I find their actions to be very selfish and over the top. The guys over at Opera are good. Their desktop browser is great, and their mobile browsers are the best.

I still see Opera and 10 a far better experience, for me, than Firefox of any version.

I want Opera to get out of the courts with their fake "I'm Fighting for the Little Guy" rhetoric and get back to developing their products.

Please Opera. Please.

@Weathorn: "I'm sure the EU would say that Microsoft would be morally (and possibly legally) obligated to sell within their market, and that they have no choice."

Really, what is morally wrong with Microsoft not selling it's product in the EU.

Also, how can they legally force MS to sell Windows in the EU?  Can they force you to sell your OEM computers to customers over in Europe?  If not, how are you different then Microsoft?  Who would the EU go to enforce a ruling that MS has to sell Windows in Europe, the UN?

Say what you will, but you know it to be true that Paul would be all over a bad set of financial result figures from Apple or Google. It shows hypocrisy. Or at least shows that Microsoft pulls this blog's strings. I'm sure Paul's concerned about a memo coming from the Borg regarding his negative reporting of Microsoft, and to remember his pledge to kick Apple and Google at any chance possible.

@chuck84: "The suggestion that Microsoft just not sell its products in the EU is a great idea!"

Thanks for the sarcasm.  

Of course Microsoft would not pull out of the EU market.  I was merely questioning whether or not it would be wrong for them to do so.  However, if MS did threaten to not sell Windows in the EU, I bet the EC would back off and let Microsoft do whatever they please (within reason, that is).

"However, if MS did threaten to not sell Windows in the EU, I bet the EC would back off and let Microsoft do whatever they please (within reason, that is)."

Very doubtful, because with plummeting sales, Microsoft is in no position to even make the threat, let alone do it. That's a good thing, even if the EU is overreacting, because it means that Microsoft is now unable to dictate terms the way it used to. You'll get better products from a less arrogant company.

The surprise is that billions of euros in fines didn't really seem to make much impression on Microsoft. It apparently took the recent sales decline to cultivate a more reasonable attitude.

Three thoughts from the peanut gallery (although typed on IE8 on Win7 RC).

1. " All this fuss because of Opera." All this fuss about the ability to give away a program. I haven't used Opera for a decade or so--does Opera make a ton of Kroner on ads? Or think they might if only they had a suitable (in their eyes) market share.

2. Opera has had plenty of time to establish themselves. They preceded Internet Explorer and Netscape. Why didn't they win? They came after NCSA Mosaic and Lynx. But NCSA pulled the plug, and Lynx, while still useful to see proper (text) web pages is not exactly main stream.

3. Too much fuss about a down quarter at Microsoft. One quarter means nothing--a dozen or so do. Unlike the "long term is a week" market people today, I'm old enough to thing of 5 years as short term; 20 as medium or long term. (And 5 million shares on the NYSE as a huge day.)

"robertsjoe said:

Say what you will, but you know it to be true that Paul would be all over a bad set of financial result figures from Apple or Google. It shows hypocrisy. Or at least shows that Microsoft pulls this blog's strings. I'm sure Paul's concerned about a memo coming from the Borg regarding his negative reporting of Microsoft, and to remember his pledge to kick Apple and Google at any chance possible."

This is the "WINDOWS Supersite you moron... Of course Paul is going to show favortism to Windows. This site is for WINDOWS enthusiasts after all, not Apple fanboys such as yourself. Go back to the Apple forum you came from and post with the other emo kids ;)

We are Windows enthusiasts, You are fanboys.

We make reasoned arguments, You rant.

Microsoft are fluffy little bunnies, the EU and Apple kill puppies (for fun!)

Steve Balmer is a genius, Steve Jobs and Neelie Kroes drool.

Microsoft are making less money than before, Apple are making more.

oops I obviously got that last part wrong...;-)

"We are Windows enthusiasts, You are fanboys"

Would that also apply to Leo Laporte, Scot Finnie, Tim O'Reilly, David Pogue, Preston Gralla and many more … dare I include the great Steve Gibson who elegantly examines windows code on a fundamental level?

It is you and MikeG who are religious zealots incapable of unbiased and objective reasoning. Yet, you project your deficiencies on others. It is a fact NTFS is an inferior filing system. Windows Journaling and indexing is a bad joke. Windows Paging system is equally poorly constructed. I have read ALL written work from Mark Russinovich – sadly this once uber computer scientist has sold himself short within MS.

Need I mention two microsofties (Leo Notenboom and Bob Rankin) speak glowing of Linux.

Once you try Macs you never go back !!!

Opera will be on the ballot screen, I'm sure.

My only question is who they'll blame when STILL no one uses their crappy browser. (Yes, I've tried it and yes, it is a piece of poop).

Also, Balthazar9, please familiarise yourself with the meaning of the word "uber" before throwing it around like it was "literally" or "ironic".