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It strikes me how iPod vs. Zune mirrors Windows vs. Mac, i.e. no matter what the technical merits of the underdog, consumers will stick with what they know and what is ubiquitous.  Inertia wins.

This being the case, maybe Microsoft could "pull a Mac" with the Zune and make it in to a highly-desirable, high-cost, high-quality "niche" media player, which will never get more then single-digit market share but which people will covet and lust after.  The BMW of media players, just as the Mac is the BMW of personal computers.

Another thought occurred: could the Zune's "failure" also have something to do with the fact that it's not a phone and is largely unavailable outside the United States?

Think this isn't surprising. Will be more interested in 6 months time when the HD has been out and all the xbox Zune rebranding/windows 7 stuff has had time to bed in. Think there will be alot more vibe about it.

Might be in the market for a larger capacity ipod soon and would seriously consider the Zune HD...if they'd sell it in Europe....

As one of the few Zune owners based in Europe, I find it frsutrating that Microsoft continues to provide no support for users in the region. I love my device ( a gen 1 Zune 30 ) but it annoys the hell out of me that I can't get access to Zune marketplace. I have to say that I will be looking at the dark side for my next player unless MS finally get their act together in the European market.

Well it doesn't really help that last year Microsoft have barely bothered pushing the Zune, apart from that one advert about the Zune pass which is a pretty meagre effort.

They've got millions of £ and access to top notch advertising firms, all they need to do is *actually* make an effort with it.

I absolutely LOVE my Zunes (I've had a 30GB previously and 120GB currently), but the Zune's biggest issue has nothing to do with the technology... it's the lack of marketing of the device. I've seen only a few ads, and I've NEVER seen them on TV.

They really need to market it a bit and not just depend on the pathetic Best Buy in-store displays (etc).

Seriously....the guy that is saying that Zune is dead is named Kevorkian? Ha! Hilarious!

As Paul said, the Zune software is much better than iTunes...and for some, the subscription model is a better choice...but inertia is winning out...same as on the OS stage. Will Zune HD help? Doubtful.

--tayme

"So, in late 2008, the Zune actually had 50 percent more usage share in the MP3 player market than the Mac did in the worldwide PC market. (Hey, math can be fun.) When you consider how little advertising Microsoft did/does for the Zune, that's rather astonishing. What's Apple's advertising budget? $10 gazillion or something?"

Much like that telephone call the guy from Microsoft with a ridiculous moustache was rotfling about being the greatest single business telephone call he ever got - namely Apple legal asking them to change the laptop hunters price, which, in a single funniest business move I ever saw, they then went on and did - math sure can be fun, but then not that fun.

Zune is only available in US and Canada, so the actual usage share is so much lower that it's barely possible to see it on a pie chart. Also, Wikipedia says the median value from various desktop operating system usage share sources for Mac is 5% - yes, worldwide. en.wikipedia.org/.../Usage_share_of_desktop_operating_systems

It's also very possible that MS spent more than 5% of Apple's iPod advertising budget for US on Zune advertising.

What I dont understand is how the large shareholders (non-employees) have not forced Microsoft to kill the whole division including Xbox.  

That division has been bleeding money since its inception.  I think that Microsoft actually makes money on each Xbox it sells now but I would imagine it will be many years before they make back the money they have spent on the gaming console, to include the 1 billion they put aside to pay for the RROD incident.

From a purely numbers standpoint that division needs to go away.

Seriously, how can one company continue to have such crappy marketing? I can't remember how long ago I saw the last Zune ad on TV, and that ad was some esoteric junk with where the device had about 5 sec of visibility in the 30 sec spot. Worthless. I never see it advertised in the weekly circulars. The Zune display at the local Target is a disaster. One of the 4 display mockups is missing. The other 3 have had their buttons ripped off.  This device reeks of a product abandoned by its maker. I honestly believe MS is just biding its time until WinMoble 7 is released which will combine the Zune software with a smart phone.  At that point I would bet they just drop the stand alone Zune.

It's sad, very very sad.

" The current devices are decent, but now lagging behind the touch screen/App Store goodness Apple offers. The online marketplace is good, but not as good as iTunes Store"

That's it in a nutshell. The Zune, at best, lags one or two model releases behind the iPod, and  without the iTunes store. In the meantime, Apple is now converting the Touch into an iPhone with everything but the expensive ATT subscription and it is selling very well. That plus the iTunes store is the difference, and until Zune matches those two things, it is irrelevant.

Several years ago, Paul repeatedly (and correctly, I think) predicted the extinction of the iPod by Phones that also do music. He was correct, but failed to anticipate that Apple would make the best  such phone. Microsoft has yet to make a phone and so now they are trapped in the little "just an mp3 player" box that Paul predicted would happen to the iPod.

If the Zune is to have any future, it has to become more like an iPod Touch or an iPhone.

Talk about math being fun sometimes....get this

AAPL, with its 5% or whatever OS share that Paul the hack likes to throw around as something meaningful has a market cap of $143.36B

MSFT, with its 95% or whatever OS share that Paul the hack likes to throw around as something meaningful has a market cap of $212.02B

Quite funny how that works isn't it?

Hey Paul, how come you didn't write a scathing report of MSFT's worst quarter in history?  LOL LOL LOL LOL

hypocrite.

Math can be fun sometimes.

my dell jukebox mp3 player always a great piece of kit too.  still, I got burned buying it, I'm sure all the zune owners will hit that wall in a couple of years.  what a waste...  as is all of paul's cheerleading for it of course.

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"The current devices are decent, but now lagging behind the touch screen/App Store goodness Apple offers. The online marketplace is good, but not as good as iTunes Store"

That's the difference. The Zune lags one or two model iterations behind the iPod and doesn't have the iTunes store. Apple is morphing the Touch into an iPhone that lacks only the expensive ATT subscription, and it is selling well.

Several years ago, Paul predicted the demise of the iPod because of phones that would play music. He was right, except for two things: (1) Apple made a phone and is migrating its iPod customers to the iPhone and the iPhone without the phone, aka, the Touch, (2) it is now Microsoft that is trapped in the box that he predicted would kill the iPod.

The Zune has to morph into an iTouch/iPhone or it will go extinct.

On the market cap issue, this is interesting.

www17.wolframalpha.com/input

This shows the near extinction of Apple, circa 1997-99, the .com bubble that ended in 2001, and steady growth since then. Apple is about 2/3 of Microsoft's size now (measured in market cap, which is clearly not the only measure).

In retrospect, the funniest comment in 1998 or so, was Michael Dell, who said of Apple, "We know how this movie ends." He could hardly have been more wrong, which you'll see if you do THIS query:

www17.wolframalpha.com/input

chuck, did you just post two comments saying the same thing about 30 minutes apart?

I think it is pretty clear that the Zune HD is only one part of the puzzle going forward.  MS has repeatedly said that they will not make a Zune phone.  However, with the hushed project Pink, it won't stop HTC, Samsung, LG, etc, from making such a phone, potentially even using the same attractive Zune HD form factor, with the Zune software.  Only time will tell, but I think we'll know more by the time 7 goes GA.

Chuckb84,

My point was, that for someone who keeps throwing out how MS has so much OS share and Apple so little, he doesn't seem to want to discuss other factors, like how the company is much smaller in terms of employees, but its "value" doesn't have nearly the difference in terms of the marketshare numbers these MS freaks love to tout.

The funny thing is this.....MS has 95% of its OS share due to its licensing, something Apple clearly doesn't want to do.  I bet things MAY (notice I did not say WILL or WOULD HAVE BEEN) different if back in the 80s, Apple decided to do the same type of licensing that MS did.

It's like saying, "Look at how many customers MS has", meanwhile, Apple isn't even selling to those customers.

It's weird the things that make Paul happy

Branding Branding Branding

Microsoft lucked out on Windows and everyone since expects them to be as successful with everything else they do. Let's face this is a company that has weak people at the top since Bill Gates left. It is going to be a gradual slide to the bottom. I have never used a Zune and I am sure it is a fine device that plays music like all the others. Weird name and the first one was ugly. Bad branding. Even if the iPod did not exist the Zune would be floundering.

"This shows the near extinction of Apple, circa 1997"

And this shows why there is the such hatred towards MS from the Apple camp.  The famous Macworld speech of 1997.  

www.youtube.com/watch

Through all of the posturing by the current bevy of Mac fans, the painful truth is that Apple owes their then solvency and current success to MS.  From the bail out to the success of the iPhone and iPod being predicated on Windows compatibility, such animosity has been brewing.  While we can certainly point out MS's failings, as Apple fans will gleefully do, they all know in the back of their minds this truth.  And they can't stand it.  That's why they lash out.

Dipsh!t,

"chuck, did you just post two comments saying the same thing about 30 minutes apart?"

yah. I thought the first one didn't post....

I hope MS does converge WinMobile and Zune, since that's probably the only way either of them has a future.

@Dipsh t Admin

You get the results you want with misleading facts. Apple had lost over a $1B that year, but still had billions in the bank. The deal with MSFT was a win-win for both parties. It allowed MSFT to show they were not a monopoly by supporting Office for Mac into the foreseeable future and it allowed them to invest a paltry $250M in non-voting stock as another proof to the DoJ. Big deal. Apple had the Bondi iMac already on the drawing board and all Apple wanted was a commitment from MSFT that they would continue to write more versions of Office for Mac down the road. That's it. Nothing more.

It might have been a big show, and appeared MSFT was saving Apple, but nothing could be further from the truth. Apple saved MSFT from looking like an evil monopoly. And MSFT also cashed in their Apple stock years later at a pretty hefty ROI. Don't think for a minute that MSFT got nothing from the deal and that they truly had some kind of heart-felt love for Apple.

And from this last quarter's numbers, it looks like Apple is having the last laugh.

Dipsh!t,

"Through all of the posturing by the current bevy of Mac fans, the painful truth is that Apple owes their then solvency and current success to MS.  From the bail out to the success of the iPhone and iPod being predicated on Windows compatibility, such animosity has been brewing.  While we can certainly point out MS's failings, as Apple fans will gleefully do, they all know in the back of their minds this truth.  And they can't stand it.  That's why they lash out."

The money that Microsoft invested---not loaned, or gave, but invested---was a minor amount of money. Apple, contrary to the retrospective alternative universe constructed by Paul and others, didn't need the money. They did need the continuation of Office. Again, that was not a gift, it was a trade for settling lawsuits that were still pending. And, it was one of the best business deals Microsoft ever made.

"Apple owes their then solvency and current success to MS"

....I haven't read a funnier statement in some time. If you believe this, then Microsoft owes all their success of Windows to copying the original Mac OS. In each case, it is a bit more complicated than that. Apple "owes" OSX and the iPod, and the iPhone to Microsoft?

The thing that Jobs said in 1997 that was correct, was for Apple fans to get over the idea that for Apple to succeed that Microsoft had to fail. He was right then, and it still applies.

Ahhh, yes...in order for one to succeed, the ohter must fail. That is the ONLY WAY!

Idiots!

--tayme

Zune is a dead platform. No advertising, two generations behind the iPod Touch, no app store, no Mac support and it looks horrible. Why do they even bother?

It's a me-too product from a me-too company. MSFT could have owned this market years ago. Instead of thinking outside the box they probably couldn't figure out how to get the Windows OS on an MP3 player so they came up with "Plays for Sure" and then ditched it thereby screwing their partners (as usual). Apple took the lead with the iPod, and then the iTMS, then iTunes for Windows, then the iPhone, the iPod Touch and then the App Store. Game over.

Apple produces. MSFT wishes.

BladRnr must either be Bonch or Preseton from the earlier days on Paul's board...same old BS posts.

--tayme

"The PC software is superior to Windows Media Player and iTunes by a wide margin."

Just like Bing may be superior to Google.  One huge problem for MS (and I don't understand why the shareholders stand for it) is that the company lets others innovate a space and THEN they come roaring into it.

Wouldn't it be better to open it up themselves?  Why didn't the Zune software hit back at the same time or before Apple had a chance to make iTunes a hit?

Why didn't MS release a competitive Zune before or at least at the same time as Apple was opening up the iPod market?

@Tayme

What is a "BS post?" I just presented the facts. Did not MSFT make money on their investment in Apple stock? Go ahead and dispute it.

"Welcome to winsupersite.com! Where facts are only important when they support our Windows™ religion!"

@BladRnr - The BS parts of your post are "It's a me-too product from a me-too company. " and "Apple produces. MSFT wishes." Basic iCabal rantings.

I believe that if you read the history of my posts, that you'll see that your attmpt to describe me as part of the "Windows™ religion!", you'll see just how wrong you are. I like and use products from both companies, along with several others. I do not live my life in a dream world like you and the other members of the iCabal or the many members of the WinJihad herre on Paul's site.

Have yourself a nice day, now...will ya?

--tayme

"was for Apple fans to get over the idea that for Apple to succeed that Microsoft had to fail."

You should tell that to some of your friends here on the board, they might disagree with that assessment.

My point regarding the iPod and iPhone, is that only when the iPod was able to be used with Windows and with a USB port did it start to take off.  If the iPhone was not compatible with Windows, the success would have been very muted.  These are undeniable points.

"This shows the near extinction of Apple" and "but still had billions in the bank" are two statements that are at odds with each other.  And while we can say in hindsight whether it was an investment or a savior, what's 150 million if you have billions in the bank?  And ask the fans in attendance at Macworld what they thought about the announcement.  If they were so confident in their survival, with billions in the bank, how is it even possible that the megalomaniac Steve Jobs would in a public forum declare that they were not only working with MS, but accepting money from them?

And listen, I know MS wasn't doing it because they were just really, really nice and trying to do the right thing.  They had motives, no doubt about that.  However, to think that Steve Jobs, yes, that Steve Jobs, would kowtow to MS to allow them to look better to the DOJ AND accept money is quite ludicrous.

This is one of the reasons why I rarely come to this site anymore.

Paul does no moderating, and look what you get.

Topic posted.

1-2 posts about the actual topic

APPLE TROLL

APPLE TROLL

APPLE TROLL with off-topic post

4 post about actual topic

APPLE TROLL with same off-topic link again because they didnt hook anyone in with the first.

APPLE TROLL calling paul a hack or whatever.

APPLE TROLL

APPLE TROLL

APPLE TROLL

APPLE TROLL

APPLE TROLL says MS steals ideals while Apple is totally original in everything they do.

1-2 posts about the actual topic

APPLE TROLL posting how much Apple made on X

Other posters telling at the Apple troll.

FLAME WAR

FLAME WAR

FLAME WAR

FLAME WAR

FLAME WAR

FLAME WAR

FLAME WAR

Off-topic post about politics or religion.

Paul closes comments. Rinse and repeat on the next one.

Seriously, dude, what the h3ll is the point of the comment section if the only moderation you engage in is just shutting the comments down before they reach 200 posts. It's a cluster freak of retards, trolls, flame wars, and pointless banter.  Knock some of the worst offenders off, and read the riot act to the rest of these kids, and you will have this mess under control in 24 hours.

Preseton still comments on the WindowsITPro side of things, and still uses the same lame Sims argument (which is really dumb since Sims is available for the Mac too).

Master3,

I'm an "APPLE TROLL" because I think Paul is a hack because he's a hypocrite?!

LOL!

Wow, you are so blinded by MS that anyone that wants some fair opinions is an Apple Troll....

and by "fair" I mean, if you knock Apple based on heresay, at least knock MS on fact....If you knock Apple based on fact, at least knock MS on fact.

"only when the iPod was able to be used with Windows and with a USB port did it start to take off.  If the iPhone was not compatible with Windows, the success would have been very muted."

Duh.  That's where something like 90+% of the market was.

That's like pointing out that saying that Obama didn't become a presidential candidate until he left his home state.

The Zune is definitely the best MP3/Video device on the market...

Yeah right it lack of a touch screen like the Ipod touch but...

The software in it is amazing the Zune player is simple the best Multimedia player on Windows actually... ITune is like Excel spread sheet in comparison...

Microsoft does not seems to put their marketing machine behind the Zune... I don't know exactly why!! Here in Canada we never see any Zune Pub on TV or radio or anything....

Whats the matter Microsoft?

"Wow, you are so blinded by MS that anyone that wants some fair opinions is an Apple Troll...."

Yeah, way to miss the point of the post completely.

It's like talking to 4th graders sometimes...

MS can come out with an ad campaign which would be a better response to the switcher ads.

Instead of I'm a Mac and I'm a PC it could be I'm an Apple Troll and I'm a MS Misfit

"could the Zune's "failure" also have something to do with the fact that it's not a phone and is largely unavailable outside the United States?"

I've been saying that for a while now.  It's only elsewise available in Canada, but there is no Canadian Zune Marketplace.

Instead, we have Puretracks.com and all of its affiliate partners, of which, Bell is probably the biggest.  They have their all MP3 store called www.inmusicmp3store.ca , while their regular music store has DRM, and also offers all-access subscriptions.

Hmm. I wish the Zune did better but I too have not seen any adverts ever.

I own a 2nd gen Zune and IMO it is definately better than the ipod in terms of music quality and features. It seems to me that MS just doesn't care about it too much, but it is a small building block to something bigger in the future.

Just take a look at the XNA game studio sdk and it has support for zune games.

@panache, why do you keep bringing up a single MS quarter and comparing it to many quarters of a completely different company? I just don't see your dream of Apple changing its business model to Microsofts. (Existance doesn't imply for all) Public education at work.

"I find it frsutrating that Microsoft continues to provide no support for users in the region"

It's not sold there (at least, not by Microsoft, and export restrictions also make it illegal to sell outside of authorized regions), so don't expect support.

"Duh.  That's where something like 90+% of the market was."

Yes, I'm well aware of that.  Some on here probably don't see that distinction.

Master3,

I got the point of the post.  But you clearly pointed out one of the comments I made as "APPLE TROLL".

Which is pure BS....anyone who claims Paul is a hack, or biased, or whatever, to you is an APPLE TROLL.

Sounds like YOU missed the point of MY post.

hamiltonstallings

"@panache, why do you keep bringing up a single MS quarter..."

"Keep bringing up"?  I mentioned it before?

The POINT, in case you can't understand....when Paul is saying how bad the Zune is performing, for some reason he brings up Mac share for some reason....he can't stand how poorly the Zune is doing so he points out Mac share, even though the Mac is doing "pretty" well right now in terms of sales...

Meanwhile, he went on about a drop in mac sales or whatever (which was rumor), never came back to "correct" it retract it, and IGNORES ON THIS SITE the awful quarter MS had.

Wow...i can't believe you can't understand....the POINT was his moronic "Math can be fun sometimes" was out of place, and just dumb.

The Zune is a great device.

Three separate devices, used (potentially) by three different people. Additionally, three different computers - again used by three different people - all for one low price. Ten (10) songs a month may be downloaded and kept - reducing the cost of supporting three different users with unlimited access to music to $4.99 (USD) per month.

It is an incredible value and it has saved many families I know a lot of money. Parents and teens have been able to avoid the costs associated with separate purchases of songs and media by sharing one affordable account with access to millions of titles.

The devices and software are excellent products, which are well supported.

Dipsh t Admin,

I know that you are NOT making this claim, but it SOUNDS like you are saying that anything that gets used on an MS operating system is successful because of MS.

Or, even better, it sounds like you are saying that anything that runs ON an MS operating system will be successful.

@Master3,

"APPLE TROLL"

This thread is clearly about comparing the Zune with the iPod. Posts that do that are not "trolls".

Compared to most threads here that have any Apple/Microsoft component, this one is not bad and even---I know this is shocking---has some comments that are both intelligent and on-topic. Here's (I hope) another one:

"The PC software is superior to Windows Media Player and iTunes by a wide margin"

I'm not sure about that, but the iTunes software is getting awfully cluttered, as Apple has jammed music, tv, movies, videos and apps into a system that was once clean and simple, and just for music. iTunes now looks noticeably clumsy and inelegant compared to what I expect from Apple.

I understand industry watchers are really into market share, but as a user all I care about is that the device I prefer is still being offered.

The current generation of Zune is old and outdated, the new iPods are updated all the time.

If Microsoft  cared they should have updated the hardware last year when they updated the software. The Zune flash player is the best player by far for me but that's because I listen to podcasts and audio books more than video or even music. The Zune software runs faster on a PC and is  a better media player as well.

I'm not surprised the Zune sales are bad right now, the new HD is coming out soon and people are waiting for those. I'm taking advantage of this by buying am 8 GB flash model for cheap. My son loves his Zune subscription we just upgraded his hard drive to accommodate all his music he's downloaded. For 5 bucks a month effective costs I think its the best combination of player/subscription model out there.

The HD should get a camera so its competitive with the new iPods and not just last years model.  

"I got the point of the post.  But you clearly pointed out one of the comments I made as "APPLE TROLL".

Which is pure BS....anyone who claims Paul is a hack, or biased, or whatever, to you is an APPLE TROLL.

Sounds like YOU missed the point of MY post."

Oh for Christ sake, you think that was all about YOU?!

Here's the deal in standard English...

If you, and this goes for all of the other people who post along the same lines, dont like the writer of a blog, and he p!sses you off that d@mn much, then STOP reading and posting on the site!

Do you think he really looses any sleep over some guy with a nickname snipping at his heels?

You are panache1023. A NOBODY, a nothing. A guy that rants at Paul in the form of providing hits to his blog. GENIUS MOVE!

If he's such a hack, WHY ARE YOU HERE?

If you insist on staying just to call Paul names or bash his posts, THEN THAT IS TROLLING.

I dont care for Walt Mossburg. I think he is a hack. I DONT READ HIS BLOG NOR COMMENT ON IT. See how that works?

Again Master3,

The you took a quote from a message I left today.  How was THAT ONE LINE NOT ABOUT ME?

Paul is a hack...but that doesn't mean 100% of what he says is wrong or hypocritical.  When he talks about Windows and MS and doesn't through in off topic, stupid remarks, then I have no problem.  Plus I like the nonsense that goes on here usually between REAL Apple Trolls (like RobertsJoe) and Microsoft Freaks (Like MikeGalos).  It's usually fun.

Responding to a DIRECT QUOTE from Paul's own blog post is not trolling...just because you don't like the facts pointed out, doesn't make it a troll post.

If I am such a nobody, a nothing, then you have the option to stop responding to my posts.

See how that works?

Lol

@panache

The 'math' comment was a logic comment, which is just math in disguise. Something you obviously still don't understand. Hilarious.

You need to start beleiving that you made the right decision in becoming a Mac user. You obviously have zero confidence in your decision! Keep on defending your choice! LOL

Bookmarklet to hide annoying commenters on this blog:

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HamiltonStallings,

What the hell are you talking about?!

You said,

"@panache, why do you keep bringing up a single MS quarter and comparing it to many quarters of a completely different company? I just don't see your dream of Apple changing its business model to Microsofts. (Existance doesn't imply for all) Public education at work."

That's a LOGIC comment, attributing to me that I "keep bringing up"...?

Wow...weird.

And what is this non-sense of "keep on defending your choice!" of becoming a Mac user...what does that even MEAN?!??!!

You've completely lost it man.  You are like a diseased individual..."A Mac user".. what the hell does that even mean?!  That I only use Mac computers?

"LOL"

Fool.  I use windows for a living.  I used Windows and a Mac at home...HOW CAN THAT BE?!?!?!  Im a "Mac user" now according to you and I need to "defend" my choice...

Nowhere did I defend anything...I didn't feel like I was being attacked.

Your reading comprehension is awful, your "logic" comments completely illogical, your inability to see Paul as a hypocrite a downfall, and worse...the fact that you can't stand to see Apple's valuation not 20x smaller than MS's, even though MS's OS marketshare is 95% - 5% seems hurtful to you!

Dude, you need to get a freaking life!  You're such a loser!

OOOOH, now I see your illogical point!

The fact that MS had 50% more usage share in the MP3 player market than Apple had in the worldwide PC market is related.........how?

Sounds very logical....

Kind of like my Apple's valuation with such a small marketshare is not that far from MS's valuation with a worldwide monopoly in the OS market.

Weird that you MS freaks for some reason don't like hearing that?

Why does it hurt you so much?!  It's not an insult being lobbed at you!  Why do you hate it so much to know that Apple can be successful regardless of what MS does?!

Geez......can't we all just look forward to Windows 7?

Master, I've tried to make that same point in the past by asking people why they keep coming here if they are so dissatisfied with the writer.  I've never gotten a reasonable response to the question.  Like you, I don't read Pogue, Mossy, daringfireball, MacNewsDaily or whatever the sites are called that are Mac specific.  No need to.  Saves me time and aggravation.  Do I know there is FUD being spread there?  Yes, I do.  However, I really don't care, and I know my presence is not going to change a thing.  The only way you can change their opinions is if El Jobso says so.  See Intel chips, video recording, copy and paste, 3G, etc.

Still, so many people have a problem with Paul, and frequently call him a hack.  Yet, every day they return.  And by the near immediacy that I see comments pop up on a post by many of them, and see several comments during the day, you know they are refreshing the page very often.

Brandan, that list of commenters is woefully incomplete.

Dipsh t Admin

I gave with I think is a good answer to the question you asked.

I generally LIKE Paul's posts.  I think when he makes nonsense comments, it deserves a response.  But other than when he is foaming at the mouth about Apple, or taking swipes at them for some reason, it's a generally pretty good site.

"The fact that MS had 50% more usage share in the MP3 player market than Apple had in the worldwide PC market is related.........how?"

Likewise, the fact that Apple's market valuation is very robust compared to MS matters how?  "Why do you hate it so much to know that MS can be successful regardless of what Apple does?!"  You know, like, still make billions of dollars and have 90%+ marketshare?

"Your reading comprehension is awful, your "logic" comments completely illogical, your inability to see Paul as a hypocrite a downfall, and worse...the fact that you can't stand to see Apple's valuation not 20x smaller than MS's, even though MS's OS marketshare is 95% - 5% seems hurtful to you!"

My head hurts after reading this rambling run-on sentence.

"can't we all just look forward to Windows 7"

We could, but I don't think you'd go along with that.

ok Dipshit...now you're going too far.

You ask how the valuations of MS and Apple matter...they DON'T!  THAT WAS THE POINT!

Based on your usage of the term "run-on sentence", I'm not sure you understand its meaning.

And why don't you think I could go along with looking forward to Windows 7?  Is it because I've been running the RC at home?  Is it because I took advantage of the special pre-release pricing?

Or is it because I point out hypocrisy when I see it, and it bothers you?

I thoroughly enjoy the Zune software and my Zune Pass.  Everyone points out the lack of advertising and I agree completely.  The early viral marketing approach was a complete disaster.  What they needed to do, was to win a contract with American Idol.  The other thing that the Zune team needs is to do a far better job on drawing on the assets developed by other MS entertainment platforms.  For the live me, I don't know why they haven't....

1. Incorporated Zune in MSN with a streaming service, ad supported, that introduces people to the Zune brand and keeps people entertained if they don't have device or software with them.  And for heavens sake, make use of Silverlight for streaming.

2. XBox Arcades games downloadable & playable on Zune HD.  The Zune HD hardware looks powerful enough, I just don't know what the controls would be like.  Kids would love it.  Essential Companion to XBox.

3. Made Zune Dock or Zune when Docked, into a Media Center Extender.  The Zune HD hardware looks more than capable to stream content from a Media Center PC.  Essential companion to Media Center.

4. Allow Zune to act like a full fledge WM device minus the cellular connectivity.  But having access to recently released WM App Store would make complete sense.  Essential companion to Power User.

5.  And of course, get Zune onto Windows Phones.

Haha panache calm down. You have some serious logic issues. You can't stand this website yet you keep coming back (see?).

I'm sorry I ruined your day lol. Oh and your posts are too long, I didn't read them.

HamiltonStallings,

I can't stand this website?!

Where do you get this stuff?!  I never once said that, or anything remotely close!

No wonder your logic is completely wrong.

Hey USArcher I agree.

I think MS is probably working on integrating the Zune with a lot of other 'live' type services. It will be interesting to see what comes out of it in the future.

@ Dipsh, I come via a my RSS feed.  I get Windows and Apple news as well as other news.  I am by trade for most of my 20 years in IT a Windows person.  In recent years its way more of a VMware/storage person.

I have been reading Windows NT/Pro (whatever the latest name is) since it first came out and Paul has been in it for a while.

At home I moved to all OS X after Vista failed to impress me.  At work I am allowed to use a Mac, since we have the "Golden Triangle" setup to support our many Macs.  Its Open directory on a Apple server hooked into AD, you can nest AD groups in OD groups and OD allows you push settings to your Mac's, just like AD GPO's for PC's.

So I read news about many tech topics.

@Master "t's a cluster freak of retards, trolls, flame wars, and pointless banter."  Your forgot people with ANGER problems, like yourself.  I mean seriously you cant ignore posts you dont like?

"I don't read Pogue, Mossy, daringfireball, MacNewsDaily or whatever the sites are called that are Mac specific."

Pogue and Mossy cover the Mac much less than Paul does on this site.

"iTunes now looks noticeably clumsy and inelegant compared to what I expect from Apple."

That means that us Windows users are right at home with it.

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"so many people have a problem with Paul, and frequently call him a hack."

I don't have a problem with the writer.  I'll probably buy his Windows 7 book.

"What they needed to do, was to win a contract with American Idol.  The other thing that the Zune team needs is to do a far better job on drawing on the assets developed by other MS entertainment platforms."

It's a bit late for the standalone devices now. People are migrating towards having one device, usually a phone, with them unless they're working out.

I think the one of the most influential things Apple did with the iPod was get people accustomed to using iTunes.  

@Master3

"Knock some of the worst offenders off, and read the riot act to the rest of these kids, and you will have this mess under control in 24 hours."

Well said, sir

"Incorporated Zune in MSN with a streaming service"

There's a big problem with that - the MSN branding is slowly going away.

Microsoft is focussing more and more and community-based content.  The channel for that content is provided via Windows Live.

I get the feeling that they may leverage their new partnership with Yahoo to supply non-community content but that's probably forthcoming.

As for now, MSN is pretty well all but dead, but there are a few ISP content partners that still use the brand.  Bell Canada still does as part of their "Sympatico/MSN" content portal, even though Microsoft doesn't use the MSN name, and Bell doesn't even use the Sympatico name for their internet service.

"And why don't you think I could go along with looking forward to Windows 7?"

Because post after post after post you continue to loathe and belittle MS.  To think you are going to just sit idly until October 22 is about as likely as any of us amassing Bill Gates like money.  You will continue to spit your venom on a blog that you consistently call the writer of a hack and basically a biased tard.

"they DON'T!  THAT WAS THE POINT!"

Then stop bringing it up!  Your first post in this thread.  Reread it.

"It's a cluster freak of retards, trolls, flame wars, and pointless banter."

That's why I keep coming back. This site is pure entertainment.

Keep the flame wars burning!

Dipshit,

Dude, you are 100% wrong!

I RARELY if ever belittle MS.

I know what i wrote in my post...it was just as relevant as Paul talking about Mac usage share in a post regarding how poorly the Zune is doing...you can't be so dense as to not understand that.

And my "Venom" is usually towards posters that are clueless, lying, extremely biased, or a combination of the three.

How in the HELL did I EVER "loathe and belittle MS"...it's amazing to me that you see someone point out a positive about Apple, or criticize PAUL THUROTT, and you claim I am "loathing and belittling Microsoft"...in fact, I actually LIKE MS and Windows....Are you talking about my opinion that Surface is a joke from a few weeks back?  Oh man, PLEASE say that's not what you are referring to!

Dude, you are starting to sound worse than RobertsJoe.

"Hey Paul, how come you didn't write a scathing report of MSFT's worst quarter in history?  LOL LOL LOL LOL"

Hah. And you call Mike a fanatic. Nice try.

God, I hate when people use LOL so much...I thought that there were more adults on Paul's site...

--tayme

How come this blog reminds me of an old Billy Joel song?

"We didn't start the fire,

It was always burnin',

Since the world's been turnin'

We didn't start the fire,

But when we are gone

Will it still burn on, and on, and on, and on... "

Two sides (Mac Zealots and Windows Fanatics) who refuse to accept the other's existence.

If might quote Tupac from his song changes...

"Somethings will never change..."

Pathetic.

The Zune IS dead. You'd be stupid to buy one. Well, you /were/ stupid if you already did buy one.

It's not just the Zune... daringfireball.net/.../microsofts_long_slow_decline

Totally off topic...but what isn't today? I am outraged. Where is Paul's Palm Pre coverage? I've been using a Pre for the last few weeks...I have to say, it beats my Omnia all to heck...and my buddy with the iPhone is jealous. Once Palm opens up the App Catalog for business, its gonna be awesome. The developer community is hard at work and there are nearly 100 beta apps right now. It took Apple how long to open up their App Store?

--tayme

"God, I hate when people use LOL so much...I thought that there were more adults on Paul's site..."

"LOL! Apple demanded that Microsoft stop advertising PC price advantage over Macs, Paul Thurrott"

I agree. Tell the proprietor.

@tayme: "and my buddy with the iPhone is jealous"

now you're lying.

@robertsjoe - And you know this how? I knew I'd get a rise out of you on that. Like it or not, the iPhone is not everything that you make it out to be. Its nice...but it is not the end all music playing cell phone.

--tayme

tayme,

Perhaps we should have Mac hacker Charlie Miller hack robertjoe's mac and force it to load Bootcamp each and everytime. Force his Mac to boot into Windows 7. Then have his web browsers hacked to block the supersite and the supersite blog.

Just a thought.

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