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IMHO this is make or break for the Zune.  If this one does not do well, I would call for the shutting down of the Zune division if I were a major stock holder.

This good hardware with good features backed by good software.  That said if it does not take off, then MS is just throwing away money in a big way.  Money that is not all theirs to throw away.

I'm hoping the Zune does well.  Not for Microsoft, but for Apple.  The iPod needs healthy competition.

Additionally, starting September 15th the Zune HD will also be available in blue, green and dark red as well as black and platinum and with 10 new personalized graphics on Zune Originals.

is J Allard still behind the zune?

And now, the failing, money losing Zune...

will be "nano-chromatic"

LOL!

Mike Galos, remember when you used that in a way to kind of demean the iPod or something?

Would anyone know enough about sales projections and profit margins to take a guess at to what this new Zune might mean to Microsoft's bottom line?

Lindy

If Microsoft had the monumentally bad sense to base their business decisions on stockholders' opinions of "good investments" then Windows would have been killed off no later than 1987 as "just throwing away money in a big way" and Microsoft would still be primarily in the programming languages business.

But, I'm sure those short-sighted "investors" would still be patting themselves on the back at how they stopped those stupid kids at Microsoft who had no idea how "business really works" from wasting another $50M on that stupid GUI vision that was never going to make any money.

That's the difference between having leadership and vision and being a risk-averse company that makes no impact on the world. And it's why after 34 years Microsoft is the only member of the initial group of companies in the personal computer industry who are still around. (Apple, Commodore and Tandy didn't jump on the bandwagon until two years later)

Ordered mine a moment ago - Zune HD black, 16 GB

and a 32 for a friend's birthday.

I think the Zune HD will do well for a number of reasons and I also reason it does not matter if it does especially well against the iPhone/iPod Touch, because the software and advancing integration across all platform members is what will matter most in the end.

As content and it really is about that, is made accessible across the entire PC ecosystem easily and nearly instantly, specific devices and locations matter much less. If there is a beauty about "cloud" computing, this is it; this is the potential and building for it is where Microsoft is so much stronger than anyone else. For all of it to work, it comes down to context and policies to assess and control context - what is accessible, by whom and by what means?

When I look at all the is going on and devices like the Zune HD, this is what I see and think about - context (the relevance - as in is this relevant to what one is doing now and from where and how to weight that - since we're never really away from home and family and never really away from work, either).

Think about what that means and then look at Windows and the Zune HD not for what they are, or may be, but for what they can and will be (what you can do on them and what devs can enabled for you).

panache

No, I don't remember that.

I DO remember laughing at Apple for using "nano-chromatic" as their primary marketing campaign for that generation's iPod revision. When all you've done is change the colors, that's pathetic and deserves derision.

I really hope Zune HD will have good selling!!!

Effectively Apple I Pod need real competition...

I hope Microsoft will start their marketing machine on this one!!

I read about an interesting use for the Zune this morning:

A missionary going to a foreign land was using the Zune to carry video 'books' of the Bible and other publications.  

They need international rollout dates announced on this sooner rather than later.

What ever came of the Zune media content coming to Xbox Live internationally (or at least to Canada)?  Is that still happening?  I know that they only announced the Zune HD for the US, but they had announced at the same time that media content from the Zune Marketplace would make its way to international waters via Xbox Live, starting with Canada first.

Mike Galos,

Your statements are very contradictory.

Regardless, that iPod refresh offered more than just a change in colors, but since you only watched the commerical and didn't actually look into the iPod, you wouldn't have known that..

I guess that commercial was effective towards you as all those awesome Zune commercials...........

When all you've done is produce a me-too product that doesn't have near the features of the iPod Touch, that's pathetic and deserves derision.

And the market will gladly provide the derision.

The object of a company is to make money. The Zune is not making money.

And it will fail again. MSFT needs something BETTER than the iPod Touch. This is not it. My gosh, it doesn't even have Mac support. So much for going after the college crowd.

panache

Yes, there were other changes but, even Apple admitted through their marketing that the availability of new colors was the "nano-chromatic" new selling point.

Or are you pretending to be so dense as to pretend there's no difference between offering a product in multiple colors and saying your biggest selling point is that you have multiple colors?

Seriously. MSFT is on the brink of not being able to sell Word in the U.S. and Paul is giddy talking about a failed/failing media player? Which is more important to MSFT: a huge money maker or a me-too product that couldn't be less hip.

If this were Apple you guys would be all over it like a hobo on a ham sandwich.

Blad

" My gosh, it doesn't even have Mac support"

Wow, that'll kill it for sure with the small fraction of Mac users who don't use a dual boot or virtualization system to run Windows on their Macs AND don't also run a Windows computer AND are also not "Apple-products-only" fanbois.

So that's a small percentage of a small percentage of a small percentage of 3% of the market.

Yeah. That's a target audience worth writing a separate client for.

Blad

"The object of a company is to make money."

By that reasoning, Microsoft would have killed Windows and Apple would have killed Macintosh and iPod since they all were BIG money losers for quite a while before turning profitable.

Glad you're not running either company.

I agree with Mike in that Apple users aren't a target audience writing a separate client for.

Microsoft hasn't wasted their time on a Mac version of Outlook, and I don't think that's hurt them one bit.

Mike Galos,

Your statements are SO WEIRD!!!

"Or are you pretending to be so dense as to pretend there's no difference between offering a product in multiple colors and saying your biggest selling point is that you have multiple colors?"

Isn't this exactly what MS is doing now?  Offering their product in multiple colors?!  Maybe you had some kind of typo there or left out some words or something....

And once again..the object of a COMPANY *IS* to make money...No one here denied that sometimes it TAKES money to MAKE money..sometimes it takes time to recover losses...but the END GOAL of making those investments, spending the money to develop a product, even having time pass where the product loses money, is to EVENTUALLY turn profitable on the product.

Mike Galos, your points about MS ditching Windows while they were investing money at a loss, is LUDICROUS because management there realized, or hoped (correctly) that the future would be GUI.  So yeah, they were willing to invest and lose some money..maybe LOTS of it, to try to see it through, to hopefully MAKE money.

It's weird that you deny this.

I will buy a Zune HD. I see no reason to pre-order. I don't need it on Day One.

I have come to prefer the Zune to the iPod (the Touch is not the competition--I have the phone version of that). And for music and podcasts, I prefer the Zune software and store  to iTunes and that store which have become terribly cluttered.

To the extent that I listened to MacBreak Weekly on the Zune last evening on the drive to and from dinner.

Now to figure out what I'm doing wrong such that the Zune discharges itself when I'm pretty sure I've turned it off for a couple of days.

btw:

I find it interesting to note that the Apple Fanatics here haven't been justifying why the 16GB iPod Touch is worth a 36% Apple Tax and the 32GB iPod Touch is worth a 38% Apple Tax.

After all, their devices of choice don't have OLED screens, the very cool Tegra chipset, equivalent HD video out, the HD Radio (or any radio, for that matter), Zune Pass, or, or, or...

But, I guess paying nearly 40% more for old technology and a poor excuse for a media pricing model is just what they're used to so they don't know to expect better treatment.

The object of a company is to make money over the long term. Much of the current market silliness is because of  the endemic redifinition of "long term" to mean "next week" (and "short term" to mean "in 5 minutes").

@chipwinter

'Microsoft hasn't wasted their time on a Mac version of Outlook, and I don't think that's hurt them one bit."

Uhhhh... Entourage?

http://tinyurl.com/n4blv3

Mike, the iPod Touch is not the Zune HD's competition (unless MS sneaked in a fully stocked application store while I wasn't looking). The iPod Nano and Classic (as long as it lasts--I suspect the current Classic is the last iPod with a spinning storage device).

There was no assurance whatever that Windows would succeed. It took ten years to evolve it to the point where it was widely accepted and embraced - not just by people, but by businesses and developers. Its ramp was long and costly.

Microsoft appears to be driving hard toward goals where high-quality content one either buys, or leases is nearly immediately available across all of the devices connected to any single, or multiple devices - regardless of type, or location. They're integrating access to that content within easy to use and appropriate interfaces that run natively on the device type (or can be made to - such as connected DLNa HDTV's, etc..). The Zune, Zune software and marketplace are just small examples of this and while it may take as long or longer than Windows development, it will happen. Others are trying to do that, too, but not nearly in a way which is as inclusive to others as Microsoft is (even Apple's most supportive pundits recognize this).

Finally, and again turning to comparisons among Apple's strongest supporters and researchers in security, (reflecting again on context and accessing it from my earlier post), Microsoft has done the very hard work that Apple has not yet completed, and or may not have even begun. (hardware supported NX for all processes parallel to ASLR+DEP and object centric control of data and code bits with a broker monitoring escalations).

Microsoft has solved all of these and now we're going to see all the cool software, devices and "experiences" that may be built and delivered on top of that work.

"Mike, the iPod Touch is not the Zune HD's competition (unless MS sneaked in a fully stocked application store while I wasn't looking). The iPod Nano and Classic (as long as it lasts--I suspect the current Classic is the last iPod with a spinning storage device)."

This.

Unfortunately, MS missed it's chance here.  Nice hardware that will sell among the hardcore, but thats it.

The Zune is the Mac in this case.  Apple Products are the "Windows" of this market.  With less consumer complaints.  :)

Mike,

The "Apple Tax" on the iPod Touch compared to Zune is a myth because the Zune hasn't shipped yet and we don't know what the iPod Touch will cost or the lineup will be when it does. I'd be willing to bet, given the price reductions on the iPhone, that the 16GB Touch retails for around $220 and the 32GB retails for around $299. It's simply not a fair comparison, though, at this point, since you're comparing a generation of Zune that has yet to be released with a released iPod Lineup that we all know will be refreshed in about a month.

As far as the college market, Apple has much more than 3% market share. I work at a college, and Macs are becoming the standard here, not only among students, but everyone in our IT management uses a Mac (including me), as well as all the high-level officers, including the president of the institution.

And, by the way, the next version of Office for Mac is going to include Outlook and ship next Christmas, so Microsoft must disagree that omitting Outlook hasn't hurt them.

And once again there are no signs of a European launch <sigh>. I can only assume that Microsoft have taken the huff with us over the stupid behaviour of the European Commissioners. I have had conversatins with MS staffers about this and the excuse they give is frankly pathetic. I'm told by MS that they are finding the European market too difficult to deal with. Funny that Amazon and Apple seem able to cope just fine selling music here.

WOW!

MikeGalos, why are you so bothered that people as of now prefer the iPod to the Zune?

Your panties really are in a bunch!

No 32 BG in black? I like the silver, especially if it can have those nice designs, but I was hoping for a black Zune HD.

On an off-topic note: Paul, I see your changed the site's favicon from your mug to a Windows logo, but is that a Windows 7 Starter logo? It's nice but the Windows 7 HP would've been better.

Also, when are you going to post the second part of your Windows 7 review?? Dude!

btw:

I find it interesting to note that the Microsoft Fanatics here haven't been justifying why the 16GB Zune HD is worth a 10% Microsoft Tax.

After all, their devices of choice don't have access to the App Store, e-mail, a 64 GB option, camera, or, or, or...

But, I guess paying more for old technology and a poor excuse for a media pricing model is just what they're used to so they don't know to expect better treatment.

@BladRnr: Shutup silly!!

Zune had been better on features since the begining... Stop telling that the zune is not near I Pod...

Just an example, Zune had a Wifi connection since the first version ... not I Pod...

So go on your desk and take a look at your Mac and just masturbate yourself a little... This will calm you down a little!!

@panache1023 : because it is just sad peoples don't know they have real choice when its time to buy there portable media machine...

This is why I told that I hope Microsoft will start their marketing machine on this one because I conciser that the fact the Zune does not sell has expected in the past years has not a matter of quality of the Zune or because the Zune was not better than the I Pod, it was just a matter of marketing...

Microsoft did not enough publicize the Zune...

If Microsoft really start their marketing machine, they will begin to talk market on I Pod because the Zune is definitely a better and more interesting to use device than the I Pod...

EricoF3 said:

"because it is just sad peoples don't know they have real choice when its time to buy there portable media machine..."

**********

Oh you mena like when people go and blindly but their Dells running XP or Vista? Yeah I have to agree with you there.

Very interesting argument that your have just made... Mental Gymnastics commence!

Erico,

Is that the same marketing machine that brought us the Gates/Seinfeld ads? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! The Zune is horrible compared to the iPod, which, by the way, looks to be refreshed on 9/7. Too bad for the Zune; it almost had a moment in the sun...

EricoF3,

You may be right...you may be wrong.

MS ramped up the marketing machine on Vista, and it still has pretty lousy usage stats.

MS ramped up the marking on Bing (funny, great commercials), but Bing, as now of, is still crap, usage wise.

So don't be so sure that if MS ramps up marketing, that it will do much, if anything, for the Zune.

Ugh we need edit here!

Dude1313 said:

EricoF3 said:

"because it is just sad peoples don't know they have real choice when its time to buy there portable media machine..."

**********

Oh you mean like when people go and blindly buy their Dells running XP or Vista? Yeah I have to agree with you there.

Very interesting argument that you have just made... Mental Gymnastics commence!

@Dude1313: you are right!! It would be interesting that people have a choice when buying their desktop PC or Laptop PC... Yes it would be great...

The problem is... MacOS does not run on dell PC or HP PC of Acer PC or IBM PC or Lenovo PC... THe support nothing... Apple just voluntarily unsupported PC machine and hardware... The Market is open!!...Apple could if they want to be a real competition... But they don't want!!!! by not supporting PC machine...

There is a reason why they don't want!!! They know, if they try to do competition on the Microsoft land (I mean supporting all existing hardware in the word), they will fail so they keep their little market and shot up... There is only Apple fanboy that talk... but they do nothing...

I just HOPE the time where apple will just try to do MacOS support all the hardware Windows support... I just want to see that once in my life just to see the wall they will hit.... lololol

@panache1023: naaaa ... Be patient, Let bing do their place... It just been here for about 2 or 3 month now ... give it a chance... come on...

Yes Microsoft ramped the marking on vista but the problem it was vista was not ready to released...

I never say Microsoft always do good... They fail regularly!! The important is to try doing things... The advantage of Microsoft on apple is that when they release a mediocre product, peoples reply immediately by not buying it... If Apple release a good product, fanboys kiss Jobs ass... if they release a Mediocre product, fanboys kiss Jobs ass too...

So All product of apple are success because fanboys always kiss Jobs ass even if a product is bad...

chip,

Wow! You have a 16GB iPod Touch that has a camera and the option of an upgrade to 64GB that retails for $200?

Better not let Apple know whats going on in your magical world. Here on Earth, Apple's only 16GB iPod Touch has no camera and no memory expansion (and no radio - HD or otherwise - and no OLED screen and no Tegra chipset and no HD video out and only 640x480 video) and is $299.

"The angular industrial design is original and wholly un-Apple-like. But isn’t it odd that the word “marketplace” doesn’t quite fit on the screen in the Zune’s main menu?

Clearly, the Zune HD is going to be compared to the iPod Touch. Its biggest shortcoming is that it’s just a media player and web browser; no apps, no games. The Zune HD prices look good compared to today’s iPod Touches, but not so much compared to the new camera-equipped ones Apple is set to announce next month (16/32/64 GB for $199/299/399)."

The link to the pics:

rantsandstuff.com/.../nitpicking-the-zune-hd

The link to the article:

daringfireball.net/.../zune-hd-ipod-touch

@Ocean: look the Zune HD price drop if apple release a I Pod with camera for 199$

Great competition!!

@Ocean: Yes The angular industrial design is really great!!

I really hate the IPod Chrome oval design Arg... Really ugly one and Iphone roundish design ... all Apple stuff look like oldish 70's chromoly toster... Beurak!!

@Ocean, "it’s just a media player and web browser; no apps, no games"

True, but it's media player looks fantastic and web browser is suprisingly, not shabby.  As for no apps, no games...I think we'll see this next year.

@mikegalos

Mike, with all due respect, you can say whatever you want, but the Zune is a dead platform. They've had three years to catch the iPod and they still haven't done so. There is nothing you can say or do to change that. The new Zune HD is not even close to an iPod Touch. And with all of the college kids going back to school they'll get a free one when they buy their Mac laptops. And if they don't buy and iPod Touch they'll get an iPhone.

If the Zune can't get traction with the 14-22 year-old group, it's dead. Nothing you say is going to change the mindset of that group. Nothing.

@Ocean: Why do you talk about no Game on the Zune HD??

THe original Zune had Games Why not the Zune HD?

@Mike "That's the difference between having leadership and vision".  There is no leadership or vision when it comes to the Zune.  Its just a copy of the iTouch.  Sure its not an exact copy with things like FM radio, but were it not for the iTouch, there NEVER would have been a Zune HD.

I agree with Lindy, at what point does Microsoft throw in the towel if this Zune does not make major market share gains.  The Zune/Gaming division was down 28% as of the last reports.  I am pretty sure that Zune is still in the deep red 4 years later?  The stock holders have more power than you think.  I would be that Balmer does not have many years left at MS.

@Mikegalos

"ow, that'll kill it for sure with the small fraction of Mac users who don't use a dual boot or virtualization system to run Windows on their Macs AND don't also run a Windows computer AND are also not "Apple-products-only" fanbois."

So is MSFT unwilling to invest the time to write WMP for the Mac? Aren't they a software company? Apple writes iTunes software for Windows. Seems pretty simple. But you make it so complex.

@Mike "Better not let Apple know whats going on in your magical world. Here on Earth, Apple's only 16GB iPod Touch has no camera"

Do you really think that the iTouch is not going to be updated in the fall, like it has been every year?  The iTouch will be updated to the same specs as the 3GS, and probably have a 64gig version.  I bet this happens before mid October.

How many people are really going to do HD out to a TV from a Zune or iTouch??  I know my ripped movies on my computer that are standard DVD res, come out to a 3-4gig file.  I have read that a BD movie ripped is about 20gig.  So you could get 1 HD movie on a Zune HD 32gig, or 2 on a 64gig iTouch.  The copy to the device would take forever over USB.

@rr0de74@live.com: What is your point here?? Microsoft copy this, Microsoft copy that... Yes like all other companies... Apple do that too...

What is the problem with taking the idea of an other company and doing a similar product that do a little more...

If company never done that we're running in Fort T yet...

What is your point exactly... All company is doing that an it is a really good thing...

@Lindy, "IMHO this is make or break for the Zune."

If you just think of Zune as a series of portable devices then I can see why you may have doubts.  Evidenced by Zune MarketPlace coming to XBox this fall, Zune is diversifying.  Thats not a survival thing, it is delivering on Microsoft's "3 screens" vision.

Oh you mena like when people go and blindly but their Dells running XP or Vista? Yeah I have to agree with you there.

======================

Dell did ship machines with Linux preinstalled right? And let's not forget Linux used to be so popular on netbooks. As for MacOS, as EricoF3 said, Apple didn't even support it on PC.

Mike,

Wow! You have a 16GB Zune that has OLED screens, the very cool Tegra chipset, equivalent HD video out, and HD Radio?

Better not let Microsoft know whats going on in your magical world. Here on Earth, Microsoft's only 16GB Zune has no HD screens, no apps, no web browser and is $299.

Just dropping in to say Wow. Its amazing how all of the regular brand-loyalists come out when something like this gets announced. Each group defending their favored company as if that company was a family member. This evening when robertsjoe gets out of school, he'll be along to tell you all how Zune is dead and Apple is awesome. He, Waethorn, and "lotsamystuff" are about the only ones missing. Very predictable and very boring.

You can now return to your pathetic little argument while I enjoy technology from both Microsoft and Apple...along with several other leaders in the industry.

--tayme

"web browser is suprisingly, not shabby."

LOL

blad

Hmm. Let's compare:

Apple having iPod support Windows increases audience from 3% to 99% of computer users

Microsoft having Zune support Mac OS X increases the audience from 96% to 99% (at best since a high percentage of Mac users already use Windows or won't buy non-Apple products)

By doing that, Apple increased their audience by 3,200%

By doing that Microsoft would increase their audience by at best only 3%

You really think that's a hard decision and that the two choices are even similar? Wow.

tayme has a point here!!

Chip

Let's see: Microsoft is currently taking orders and announced a delivery date. That's pretty solid and binding.

On the other hand, you're going off a rumor on "Daring Fireball" and we all know that Apple pre-release rumors have about a 1% chance of being true. (Are you enjoying your Mac Tablet? It's been equally rumored for at least five years now so you must have several of them by now!)

I just find there tremendous irony in Mike trying to attack Apple for focusing on iPod nano colours in its marketing when Microsoft's 2008 Zune update really was just an extremely minor refresh of a 2007 device with new colour options.

Not to mention that Microsoft's main argument for the Zune hardware outside of Wi-Fi has been its personalization -- different colours and engravings.

Pot, kettle, black!

"Apple Products are the "Windows" of this market.  With less consumer complaints.  :)"

With less complaints that come out into the open.

@Ocean: You might as well link to your buddy robertjoe's article. Gruber is no better.  

"Now to figure out what I'm doing wrong such that the Zune discharges itself when I'm pretty sure I've turned it off for a couple of days."

When you "shut off" the Zune by holding down the button it only goes to sleep.  To fully power down, you need to press down on the directional pad and while holding that also press the back button until it powers off.  then it will be fully off.  it will need to boot every time you turn it on from that state though... which only takes a few seconds though.

Mike

Let's see: Daring Fireball is stating the specs, features and prices. That's pretty solid and binding.

On the other hand, you're going off Microsoft's marketing materials and we all know that Microsoft's pre-release promises have about a 1% chance of being true. (Are you enjoying your Microsoft Zune Phone? It's been equally rumored for years now so you must have several of them by now!)

"He, Waethorn, and "lotsamystuff" are about the only ones missing."

Thanks for your typical "non-biased" flamebait tayme, but I already commented.

I've already said before that products that aren't sold outside of the US are of little interest to me.

"So is MSFT unwilling to invest the time to write WMP for the Mac? Aren't they a software company? Apple writes iTunes software for Windows. Seems pretty simple. But you make it so complex."

It's not complex.  Apple stood to gain a lot from writing software for Windows - most of their iPod business actually.

Microsoft stands to gain very little.

As a comical note, I see that they've FINALLY added the US's primary official language to the website here:

social.zune.net/home.aspx

This would have made a great phone. It looks like Microsoft is being penny wise, pound foolish, when it comes to the Zune once again.

"On the other hand, you're going off Microsoft's marketing materials and we all know that Microsoft's pre-release promises have about a 1% chance of being true. (Are you enjoying your Microsoft Zune Phone? It's been equally rumored for years now so you must have several of them by now!)"

I'm surprised that made sense to you once you had typed it in. Wow!

@Mike news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10309110-37.html

"Now, this isn't a huge surprise since Apple has held an event announcing the latest upgrade to the iPod and iTunes around this same time every year."

I would not be surprised if the iTouch was available, as in you can actually put your hands on one, before the Zune HD.

IHMO I dont think we will see the rumored tablet this year.

Pingback from  Pre-Order the Zune HD | The Software Nook

iPod fans remember if it wasn't for Windows the iPod would have never been popular, in fact if Microsoft was bold enough they would make  itunes,ipod,itouch,iMac,iphone, incompatible with Windows, but that raises anti-trust issues and such, I really wish govt. would stay out of business affairs, there is a regulatory system in place it is called consumer demand.

Amen to redunion1940, but that'd also mean that you couldn't use iTunes music in other dev... wait.

WTF is going on in here? Can't you see? Apple did a great move in creating apps for the iPod Touch platform (stop saying iTouch, that product is NOT from Apple) because they would have un-DRM'ed music and thus needed to still make their devices useful.

If there were no apps or app store (which took long to happen) the iPod Touch would be the less featured iPod, given the others had beyond 100gb of space. Please don't start with the flash memory advantages, don't go there, please. I've been using even Creative's Zen micro HDD equipped player and NEVER skipped a song or ran out of battery in a troublesome way.

Thing is, MS is up to something good here: new high-tech device with an out-of-this-world processing unit that could allow for games and stuff like that, beyond freakin' video playing.

They could/should nurture this ecosystem like 'yesterday' and bring such advances to Windows for Phones (yes, they ditched Windows Mobile for the next gen platform). Goddamn they've already got XNA to make games to almost anything they already provide.

Come on, MS, throw a nice punch. Got the skillz, got the money, lack the inspiration, but you'll get there.

I for one, have used my feature phones since before iPhones to play music, videos, take my pictures and organize life.

My cheap as hell Nokia 5800 does it all and for less than half the price my Touch Diamond used to.

Anyways, live and let live. No one here's a business consultant for either company, so they won't take us seriously any soon.

Cheers!

Without DivX/Xvid support on the Zune in which format most of my video collection is, I see no value in HD TV output.

There's more than a hint of desperation in the eagerness of Zune fans to compare a non-shipping model with what Apple currently ships. Of course, that's because a comparison of the shipping models of Zune and iPod is no comparison; the iPod stomps the Zune.

Zune HD will ship, the new ipod Touch will ship. Then compare. I think they'll be similar because the state the art in hardware is similar. The difference is the software and the design of the product. Apple has been winning that fight since the beginning and will continue to do so.

The Zune HD is good news for Microsoft, because now they are only half a generation behind Apple, instead of a full generation. However, still no app store, still no games, etc, etc.

My daughters itouch died again a week ago, its time to try the new Zune HD. To be truly competitive with the itouch though,  it needs a decent browser. She uses her itouch for email as much as music if not more. I tried using  the touch screen to type and you definitely need girly hands to do it.

The flash Zune is every bit as good as the iPod Nano and better for podcast by far. Also itunes is one of the worst programs you can out on a PC I think the old Real Player is a masterpiece of code by comparison.

Good job to MS now they need this interface on a phone, like yesterday.

People buying one of these is like them buying a Walkman. It's dead.

Why not post some graphs showing how it's doing against the iPod?

How incredibly lame is Microsoft? Check this out as one of many examples: rantsandstuff.com/.../nitpicking-the-zune-hd

They're a joke.

@robertsjoe:

They're a joke because they /intentionally/ made a design choice to /cut off the e/ from "Marketplace" in the Zune menu?

Riiiiiight.

Redunion1940...

You said, "...I really wish govt. would stay out of business affairs, there is a regulatory system in place it is called consumer demand."

This is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read.  For the exact reason you state (consumer demand) is exactly WHY government should be in business affairs (but only for that reason INO).

You said it yourself.  iPod wasn't popular until iTunes was written for Windows so the masses could have access to it.  When the iPod became wildly successful it was obvious there was HUGE DEMAND for it.  Then you say that MS should make all iPod / iTunes related software INCOMPATIBLE with Windows.  THEN you say government should stay out of business affairs because there is already a regulatory system in place called "consumer demand"

Now...obviously there was demand for the iPod, then you say MS should make the software necessary incompatible.  Don't you think then you would need government regulations to prevent that sort of anti-trust violation?  Wouldn't that go AGAINST what you said was the regulatory system?

What would prevent MS from making all that software incompatible, thus SQUASHING the ability of people to use the devices they DEMAND, if not for government regulation?

While its wonderfully soothing for some to think that this is competing against the iPod, in truth its not, no matter how hard the Zune partisans try to frame it as such. They act is if there is no other competition other then Apple and MS. Last I liked there were plenty of other MP3 players (or at least the ones that the iPod hasn't demolished yet). Its a fight for second place, maybe.

Hate to be the one to break it to you guys this is going to be no different then last year when a certain person chastised Apple for having Nanochromatic colors, but since MS is doing it its now cool. Dell did the same thing when Apple came out with the multi-colored iMacs, then Apple does the same. Add to all of this the market for dedicated MP3 players is on the decline. Apple realized this and started transitions perhaps 2 years ago. MS is still thinking they can "win" this. The comments from many was that Apple had nothing left and then went on to sell more iPods last holiday Zunes many times over.

On top of all this the iPod Touch is well already and well established against the other players in the MP3 market. The Touch is useful as it serves as a gateway to the iPhone which a certain MS CEO famously laughed off, then played fast and loose with the facts of the state of Windows Mobile. Meanwhile MS is desperately trying to level the playing field. And is aghast that the iPhone has gone from no-where to a significgant worldwide player in the span of 2 years will Windows CE/Mobile whatever you want to call it may have shipped X amounts but is loathed most anywhere you ask. And in business circles the Treo or Blackberry kicked it around six ways to Sunday.

Then there is the ever fun game of Marketshare. To those in the Windows camp Marketshare is everything, its all that matters. Ask Dell and HP how that relentless quest for more of it has turned out. MS might as well be jousting at windmills here. Marketshare for the sake of Marketshare is a hollow victory, again ask Dell.

Tayme- dont be so sure, yours and my viewpoint are far closer then you might think.

And lastly I'll upset the Zune fanboy cart even more: This isn't about better marketing this is about a complete role reversal that the fanboys can't deal with is unsettling to them and downright scary. Apple ships more iPods in a non-holiday quarter then MS has shipped ever. Apple average around what 8-10 million per quarter, Zune.... I really don't care about marketshare, but since you all seem so fixated on it, try that on for size. Keep telling yourself its simply because of marketing.

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