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Well that's a dumb move. Not everyone wants a touch screen device with all the bells and whistles.

What of international availability?

What, no more squircle?  ;)

It's been common knowledge for quite a while that many (most?) hard drive-based media players are on the way out, in favor of flash-based versions, but I mourn the passing.  The larger capacity is something that I think consumers should be able to choose.  That's why I chose the Zune 120.  32GB just isn't going to cut it, so now I can only hope that flash capacities will continue to grow and maybe in four years they'll have an HD variant with that much capacity.  For the same reason, I wish the iPod Touch line had a larger capacity model like their iPod classics, which I can only assume will be discontinued soon.

Can anyone tell me why they waited until after the iPod touch (and iPhone) were released to release a device like the Zune HD?

Wouldn't it have stood a better chance >before< the iPods went touchscreen?

Unfortunately it looks like Microsoft is conceding defeat to the Ipod.  I was planning on buying my first zune when I get a new car late next year.  Oh well.

I assume the 4 Gigs are gone as well?

Ocean - that is what you do when you are a follower... not an innovator.

As a shareholder I applaud the move.  

Either this new HD line is a hit or stop burning cash on this product line.  If the 360 is in 3rd place this time next year, dump it as well.

I guess all the Zunes sold to date are "abandonware" according to Mike, since it doubtful they will get the new OS update like they did in the past.  Imagine buying a Zune 16 yesterday and Microsoft will abandon you on the 15th.

@rr0de74 - This really makes me question wether they'll even have the zune service a year from now.

I guess dumping products is one way to fix the lack of product intergration.

They still haven't changed the Zune Canada page.

When were they opening up the international availability of the Zune media content to Xbox Live?  I heard that was this month, with the [US only - for now] release of the Zune HD.

Paul?

I dont think it matters one bit. MS is getting rid of a piece of hardware that everyone complained about for a piece of hardware that has received nothingbut wildly positive reviews.

this is no indication that the Zune line is dying as including the Zune video store as the xbox video store shows how important the brand is to the company.

"Either this new HD line is a hit or stop burning cash on this product line. "

Define "a hit".

Again I ask the question:

"Can anyone tell me why they waited until after the iPod touch (and iPhone) were released to release a device like the Zune HD?"

"a piece of hardware that has received nothingbut wildly positive reviews"

How does MS translate those into *sales*?

Can they?

"For the same reason, I wish the iPod Touch line had a larger capacity model like their iPod classics, which I can only assume will be discontinued soon."

Funny how to laud the iPod touch, but you say nothing of Apple continually making a mockery out of their own iPod shuffle, generation after generation.

I mean, come on!

store.apple.com/.../ipod_shuffle

vs.

www.zune.net/.../default.htm

Give me a break!

Guess which one I'll pick?

Ditto for the iPod nano.  ( store.apple.com/.../ipod_nano )  8GB for $169, or go to a 16GB Zune for $10 more.

"you say nothing of Apple continually making a mockery out of their own iPod shuffle"

Having trouble staying on topic?

"Having trouble staying on topic?"

I'll ask you that question, since you asked about the iPhone.

Here is why they dropped the others:

"an appalling 54 per cent drop in sales of the music player."

www.theregister.co.uk/.../chris_stephenson_zune_exec_quits

"I'll ask you that question, since you asked about the iPhone."

The iPhone/iTouch are the same device -- and thus the HD's competition.  

Not sure that applies to the Nano or the Shuffle.

Hit as in great sales.  Hit as in developers start cranking out the apps.  Its doubtful but it could happen.  If it does not, like I said STOP dumping money into it.

The 360 does move games.  The question is that division in the black yet?  The RROD issues have cost them so much.  I know the first Xbox was never in the black.

"The iPhone/iTouch[sic] are the same device"

Last time I checked, you couldn't make a phone call on the iPod touch.  And although Apple generates laughably silly users most of the time, I don't imagine people would voluntarily pay AT&T several thousand dollars for what they could buy outright for $259.

"Not sure that applies to the Nano or the Shuffle."

The nano and shuffle are more closely compareable to the older Zune's than the iPhone is to any one of them.

Microsoft no doubt has seen how things are trending in this space and is narrowing its focus onto a HW/SW platform that has the legs and the chops to deliver what people are most likely to want in a PMP/HH gaming device.

It makes no sense to continue to try and compete in a market with devices that are becoming increasingly less desired by people in general.

Finally, the power in the Tegra with its dual ARM cores (which makes Leo Laporte's comments that MS can't support ARM laughably wrong), will allow devs to do things that are simply not possible with less capable chips.

"The question is that division in the black yet?  The RROD issues have cost them so much."

They make money back on licensing and developer fees and branding royalties.  They also make money back on online service fees and peripherals (also by third parties that license the brand)

"the power in the Tegra with its dual ARM cores (which makes Leo Laporte's comments that MS can't support ARM laughably wrong), will allow devs to do things that are simply not possible with less capable chips."

Seriously?  Windows Mobile, nee Pocket PC OS has been working on ARM since the first 3 Pocket PC devices were on the market (HP Jornada, Casio E1xx, and Compaq IPAQ), and the Compaq IPAQ was the first Pocket PC device to carry a StrongARM SA-110 CPU when others were using MIPS and the SH3.

XScale CPU's are even based on ARM instruction sets and they're still carried in devices to this day.

Leo is an outright laugh sometimes.

This is awesome:

www.youtube.com/watch

@rr0de74 - "I guess all the Zunes sold to date are "abandonware" according to Mike, since it doubtful they will get the new OS update like they did in the past."

The only possible answer to that question is YES...but mikegalos will likely come up with some sort of funky logic stating otherwise. He will explain it in no less than 500 words.

--tayme

Actually thats a a pretty interesting question from Ocean.

Can anyone tell me why they waited until after the iPod touch (and iPhone) were released to release a device like the Zune HD?

Can I ask all you gadget geeks another question?

Apple's iPod touch is now 2 years old.

Microsoft's various Zunes have only sold (approx) a million a year.

The market for PMPs has reached a plateaux.

Zune's share of the market has hovered around the 2 to 4% mark.

So my question is... If Apple DIDN'T CREATE the iPod touch.. and the Zune HD was launched 2 YEARS AGO..... how much market share would it have gained?

"The only possible answer to that question is YES"

You actually have no clue about that, so that is complete conjecture.

And Paul (and a couple of the blowhards here) are all over Apple for their limited choices and constant "abandonment" of older products.

Nice move MS. Real nice.

@Waethorn - "You actually have no clue about that, so that is complete conjecture."

How do you figure that I have no idea about that? I have 3 Zunes at my house that get used regularly and I am a big fan of the Zune Pass. Will I be able to run the Zune 3.0 software on my discontinued devices?

--tayme

Paul: any word on what this means for Canada where Zunes are currently sold?

If they discontinue the old ones and don't ship the new hotness up here, what are we supposed to do?

"They make money back on licensing and developer fees and branding royalties.  They also make money back on online service fees and peripherals (also by third parties that license the brand)"

I am sure they make money on them, but what does the xbox live data center full of servers cost.

I still say that the Zune/Xbox division is in the Red.

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Microsoft updated old Zune models not once but twice with software to give them the new features for free.   With 1st Gen iPod Touch, people have now to forked over 20$ to Apple for the privilege of updating.

Have iPod classics ever been upgraded to support the next year's software version ever?   Yes they can still connect to iTunes and the older Zune players will still be able to connect to Zune 4.0.

There's no way you can say that Microsoft isn't doing their damned-est to support people with older hardware.  At this point they're taking the line in a new direction that the older hardware can't possibly support, you have to have a cut-off eventually.

That being said, they haven't said anything about the Zune 4.0 software or any possible software for previous gen devices so let's just wait till that news comes out before passing judgement shall we?

"At this point they're taking the line in a new direction that the older hardware can't possibly support, you have to have a cut-off eventually."

Absolutely. The WinJihadists believe that except when it comes, to, say, Snow Leopard.

Regardless of how good the new Zune  HD is, it doesn't stand a chance against Apple for one very important reason.

Apples greatest strength against Microsoft is the Apple store, the Zune has always been hobbled by the fact that its sold by retailers that have no real interest in highlighting the Zune over its competitors.

walk into an Apple store to look at an iPod touch and you're in for a treat, its beautifully displayed, you can pick it up without some plastic tie rap around it that prevents you from really getting a feel for the product.

Play with the ipod touch  all you want, there  are plenty on display, if you have any questions there's an Apple employee near by to answer questions or demonstrate the product for  you.

Better yet... Apple also has some Macs with iTunes installed so you can also try the software and see the selection of music, Video and apps available for "your" ipod touch.

In contrast, whenever I go to Best Buy to look at a Zune it's tied with an ugly plastic tie wrap that prevents me from looking at the screen, that if it's even charged which I've found not to be the case many times.

The Zune is leading an uphill battle and losing, it has excellent software and an ever expanding catalog of movies, but the real sales are in a touch screen video oriented device which Zune hasn't had until now.

But atmosphere and presentation are half the battle, and Apple has  this Major  advantage over Microsoft .

@tayme:

Let's take a look at your statement, shall we?

"I have 3 Zunes at my house that get used regularly and I am a big fan of the Zune Pass. Will I be able to run the Zune 3.0 software on my discontinued devices?"

I don't know.  Neither do you.  Who says you won't receive some kind of update that makes the Zune software on the existing hardware similar to what is offered on the Zune HD.

"How do you figure that I have no idea about that? "

Because Microsoft hasn't announced one way or another whether they would update the existing Zune hardware.

And yet, to the statement "it doubtful they will get the new OS update like they did in the past", you assume:

"The only possible answer to that question is YES"

"And Paul (and a couple of the blowhards here) are all over Apple for their limited choices and constant "abandonment" of older products."

I don't care if the Zune is discontinued, I already have one. Also, I only needed to buy it once, a concept lost on Apple users...

You guys getting ready to buy your 90th ipod when they come out? LOL. Gotta love how Apple keeps adding features to the new ipods though, like new price tags, and making iTunes the size of Windows Vista.

"The sad part is that you really think that it's OK for a vendor to move a product from "This is best product we make and worth paying the premium for" to "We don't support those things anymore" in only 3 years. In fact, you not only think it's OK, you're defending them. Guess that's cyberStockholm Syndrome at work."

Care to elucidate, "mikegalos"?

As "Waethorn" might say: "Cue sound of crickets chirping".

SPiotr: "So my question is... If Apple DIDN'T CREATE the iPod touch.. and the Zune HD was launched 2 YEARS AGO..... how much market share would it have gained?"

I'd guess the Zune HD would do pretty decently in that scenario. If Apple had no comparable device; no touch screen, no WiFi, no web browser*, no Apps, then Microsoft would have, quite possibly had a big winner on their hands.

MS would have done even better to get something like the Zune HD out before the iPhone. Even if there was no phone attached, people were yelling for a widescreen, touch device.

Apple gave it to them with the release of the iPhone, and then a few months later with the iPod Touch (for those that didn't want or need the phone) all while MS was farting around with the Zune.

We all know what happened though, and now Zune HD looks simply looks like another "me too" device.

*Zune HD Web Browser: I have yet to see a demo of this. I mean, I've watched a slew of videos "showing off" the "awesome features" of the new Zune and while they go on and on and on about the video capabilities and the OLED touch screen, every time the topic of the web comes up all you get is "Yeah, it'll have a browser". Since this thing is being launched soon, MS better hurry up and show us what all the hub-bub is about next to decent video and a touch screen. Just sayin'.

@Waethorn - The point is that mikegalos(and you, for that matter) will most likely support Microsoft's decision to create "abandonware" of the older Zunes, if indeed that occurs; at the same time, railing on Apple for a nearly identical situation with Snow Leopard. Lets wait and see how it goes down, then...I am good with that.

I am hoping that all parties in the Apple vs Microsoft flamewar are enjoying the blinders that they have on.

--tayme

Tayme,

Snow Leopard vs Zune? Identical situation? Really? Operating system vs media player?

Of course! Its that simple.

I hope all the 'neutral' parties are enjoying failed analogies and low IQ.

"Snow Leopard vs Zune? Identical situation?"

Not really. Zunes didn't really sell that much. It's not the same.

@Ocean

That is the bug question - can MS turn the talk into sales ... we shall see.

@Waethorn,

Yep, as Leo was saying how MS does not support ARM, or cannot port to it, he was saying how good the Tegra was.... Paul verbally shurgged and said, "uh huh..." Seriously...

Of course, Leo spoke without understanding that the Tegra has two (among other things) ARM Cores clocked nearly twice that of the iPhone 3GS' The Zune HD is the most advanced design available and like Windows Mobile 6.5 and 7 phones to come, it is going to be extremely popular with people and devs. The scheduler alone is reason to celebrate - as it idles down cores not in use and lengthens battery life despite running much more powerful and capable hardware.

Thanks for the video clicp link! Awesome stuff! I have mine pre-ordered and can't wait to give it a go and see what it can do. I've pre-ordered one for a friend and one for each of our employees as a thank you for their hard work. Can't wait to see their faces when then come in on the 15th!!!

@hamiltonstallings - First of all, I said a *nearly* identical situation. But, due to your possibly low reading comprenhension skills and in order to help you to understand, let me break it down.

a) Apple updates Snow Leopard and creates a situation where some older Macs and even some recent Macs cannot take advantage of some of the features.

b) Microsoft updates the Zune, and possibly (we will know for sure, eventually) creates a situation where some oder Zunes and even some recent Zunes cannot take advantage of some of the features.

Do you see the similarities now? I won't speak to your lame attempt to make me feel "stupid" by making a comment regarding my IQ. As Waethorn said, "You actually have no clue about that, so that is complete conjecture."

--tayme

@tayme, to your point, Microsoft stopped selling the first gen Zunes two years ago. I can still use it with my Zune software. It still works.

@shark - "It still works."

You are exactly right...But as mikegalos pointed out as recently as this morning,

"Yes, and so did any working 25 year old Macs.

And any 32 year old Apple ][s that are still running are... still running.

As are my 25 year old IBM PC/AT running Windows 1.04 and my 24 year old Mac + that I keep in the corner as a reminder of where we've been.

I didn't say they were broken. I said they were abandonware."

-tayme

The two scenarios are analogous if you tell me that Apple was actually losing money on those Macs. Microsoft took the decision to discontinue a Zune model that didn't really fly off the shelves. Are you going to blame them if the Zune brand itself is discontinued a year from now if the ZuneHD fails?

That said, I think MS has a terrible strategy with the Zune. The company refuses to go that one extra mile to take the Zune from being a very good device to an exceptional device. The Zune HD would have made an amazing phone.

"Identical situation? Really? Operating system vs media player?"

Not at all, because the media player in question costs more than the operating system in question.

Wow, I leave you people alone for a few hours and you really do get some idiotic comparisons going.

Replacing a product does not make abandonware. If that were the case then every single discontinued model of every single computer line would qualify.

What makes abandonware is stopping support for an earlier product so that it is no longer compatibile with the replacement line. No longer compatible - NOT JUST unable to use every feature. For example, if 32-bit Macs could not use the 64-bit kernel that would not be abandonware. But when the new versions is not available at all on an older product, that product is abandoned.

PowerPC Macs are abandonware. Apple no longer makes new system software.

Two year old iPods are NOT abandonware because, although they're no longer sold, they are still supported in the iPod ecosystem.

Two year old Zunes are NOT abandonware because, although they will no longer be sold, they are still supported in the Zune ecosystem.

Got it?

Good.

Yeesh.

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mikegalos - If Microsoft does not allow the older Zunes  to use *all* of the new features of Zune OS, are they then considered abandonware? If not, why is that different than Apple not making *all* features of Snow Leopard available to the older Macs, as you stated in another thread?

In this thread - community.winsupersite.com/.../snow-leopard-great-news-for-windows-7-too.aspx - you said, "40% of Macs still in use can't run Snow Leopard at all because they believed Apple's "PowerPC is the future" and now have abandonware. That's 14M abandoned computers." You went on to discuss the numbers that cannot use every new feature of Snow Leopard.

I think that it is highly possible that 100% of the older Zunes will not be able to run the new Zune OS at all because they believed Microsoft's "Zune social and squirting songs is the future" Time will tell if that means somewhere between 2 and 8 million abandoned Zunes. If you'd like, we can wait until its officially announced one way or the other to get your answer...I am good with that.

My family owns and loves our 3 Zunes, especially the Zune Pass. I will be happy as long as I can continue to use the Zune Pass on our 2-30GB and 1-80GB Zunes. I am guessing that the owners of the 40% that you mention above still get great usage out of their PPC based Macs...I know that I do with that as well.

--tayme

Ars:

"Stephenson is bailing out of Redmond in order to take the top marketing job for Interscope Geffen A&M Records, one of Universal's main imprints. Universal, you might recall, was the only one of the major labels to somehow convince Microsoft that the company ought to pay the label $1 for every Zune sold—on the grounds that users were filling the devices with infringing copies of Universal's music, apparently. (Cue the jokes about how Universal earned enough cash from the deal to buy itself a burger and fries.)

Stephenson's decision to leave now certainly looks like a no-confidence vote in the Zune's direction, if not the specific Zune HD model."

Too funny, that burger and fries joke.

arstechnica.com/.../zune-marketing-boss-leaves-two-weeks-before-zune-hd-launch.ars

Oh, an article with a mention of "Zune". That's good enough for Oceansjoe.

tayme

I know it's hard for you to read an entire sentence so I'll try to simplify it.

The PowerMacs cannot just not "use *all* of the new features" of Snow Leopard. They cannot use Snow Leopard *at all*.

That's what makes them abandoned.

It isn't that hard a concept.

" because the media player in question costs more than the operating system in question."

LOL!  Funniest post evar!  You see, the difference is that you don't have to spend a small fortune on a computer to use a Zune, cuz Apple doesn't make $399 systems.  Right, Doc?

@tayme:

When Apple stops supporting OS X on PPC platforms, then they are truly, unquestionably abandonware, and I'll bet you $100 that happens no more than half as long as Microsoft's OS product cycle.

I love the current flash Zunes, I have 2 and I might pick up another, keep it the freezer a/la Steve Gibson. The new HD model is cool but I like the small size of the flash player works great for hiking and Mt biking.

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@mikegalos - I know its hard for you to read more than 1 sentence...I also said, "I think that it is highly possible that 100% of the older Zunes will not be able to run the new Zune OS at all because they believed Microsoft's "Zune social and squirting songs is the future" Time will tell if that means somewhere between 2 and 8 million abandoned Zunes. If you'd like, we can wait until its officially announced one way or the other to get your answer...I am good with that."

--tayme

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Keep in mind that I truly hope that Microsoft makes the new Zune OS available to my 3 Zunes. Microsoft has done a fabulous job keeping the devices updated thus far...I just don't see it happening this time. And really, I am ok with that, too. It is understandable...just like Apple's decision  regarding Snow Leopard compatibility.

This is just another example if mikegalos' unending love of all things Microsoft and his outright hatred of Apple. Its weird, really.

Oh, by the way...I am really digging my Palm Pre, too!

--tayme

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Mike you are wrong.  100% of Zunes sold prior to the 3.0/Sept 15th date will not be able to use the new Zune OS or features.  If I bought a Zune 8 or 16gig, heck a Zune 120gig on Sept 14th I would be screwed (and a fool).

This is all based upon Paul saying that when the HD ships the other are dead.

How is this different than the PPC Macs?  They are older?  Which would make me fell less screwed as an PPC Mac user because I realize stuff changes and my PPC Mac is a 2006 box.  If I were that Zune 16gig owner I would feel really screwed since I just got it.

In both cases the equipment works just fine with the OS/Software they still have.  In fact the PPC Mac may still have support from Software vendors that continue to rev Universal software. (Doubtful many will at this point).

I would bet that any app written for the Zune HD WONT work on the current Zunes.  The new Zune app store, that MS is hiring away developers for will probably be for 3.0 OS or higher.

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Its truely sad how Microsoft has botched the Zune. While the Zune HD looks cool and has some neat features, I have three thoughts on it.

1. Too little, too late.

2. How is it that this device has not been made internationally?

3. No matter what Microsoft does, it doesn't go far enough to make a compelling argument against the iPod/iTunes platform.

If Microsoft really was serious about the Zune, they would have done a few things.

1. Make Zune the media player and ditch WMP. Bring Zune Media Player up to speed and add iPod sync. I think the Zune Media Player is the Zune's only advantage over iTunes, but it's not strong enough.

2. Undercut the iPod's price. For example, if the iPod Touch 16 GB is $299, sell the equivalent Zune player for $249. If Apple matches, go lower. That way the initial investment is lower and combined with the Zune Pass, it would make a compelling argument.

At this point, I agree with rrode74. If the Zune HD doesn't make a real dent in sales, end this very bad experiment. I'd keep the Zune Media player, but hand off the store and devices to someone else. I'm in my 2nd generation of iPod's and honestly I don't feel any need to switch. You've got great service from the Apple Stores, you've got pretty darn good service from the iTunes store itself. While iTunes the software program definitely needs some work, its still useable enough to get the job done.

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It seems strange that Microsoft would discontinue the entire Zune line for the HD.

Could there be more coming ?

Wow! You Microtards will defend anything. Buying a classic Zune is like buying a Walkman. It's dead. In fact, buying a Zune HD is like buying a Walkman. It's dead.

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Good point, subzero. I think the problem is that Microsoft is betting on the wrong features with the Zune. I think Zune HD would have made a great phone and wouldn't have taken much more in terms of time and investment.

sounds like they're retreating on a different segment.  All apple has to do is come out with a better touch in 7 days and the zune hd will be polished off.

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@subzerohitman: The Zune HD launch has been confirmed multiple times by Microsoft to be an international launch ("Canada, Europe and Australia".)

@tayme: OK, let's look at what "supporting" means in context.

PowerPC systems are no longer sold by Apple. Apple is no longer releasing software for PowerPC. The only way Apple could be considered as "supporting" PowerPC is through Leopard patches, and even so, that's only a side effect of Leopard being available for both. Apple is no longer making drivers for PowerPC.

Basically, Apple is making it practically impossible to continue running a PowerPC indefinitely (in the sense of "as long as Apple is still around"). Sure, for a while software will be released for both, but eventually, the developers will move on.

However, I can still use my first-gen iPod (or Zune for that matter) with the latest versions of iTunes (or the Zune software). In that sense, I can feasibly continue to use my device indefinitely (with the same caveats as before).

This is what mikegalos is referring to. Now note that there isn't any precident for basing your allegations (that Microsoft will not update the firmware.) Note also that Apple has never updated the firmware for the iPod Classic (generally because there was no reason to, as each firmware was molded around the device, and still worked perfectly fine besides. There is also nothing wrong with that.)

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As an aside, the reason that PMPs and computers (or even PMPs and smartphones) can't be directly compared is that PMPs often change dramatically between releases (e.g. iPhone Classic). Therefore, it would be unfeasable to backport the firmware to previous versions. Again, there's nothing wrong with that, and personally I thought it was amazing that Microsoft supported the Zune 30 for so long.

(BTW, website link in the previous post is incorrect. ^^;)

@Mark KB - "This is what mikegalos is referring to."

Obviously, you are new here. mikegalos said that since the OS will not run on the device, it is abandonware. My question to him is, *if* Microsoft does not make the new Zune OS available on the classic Zunes, do they become abandonware as well? I also told hime that I am willing to wait for the official announcement regarding it. But, using mikegalos' definition, if they do not make it possible to run the new OS on the older devices, then the response must be the same. Of couse, mikealos will find many reasons to say that is not the case. It is expected of him, many of us here have called him on this same type of blind love towards MS in the past...as well as his evident, odd hatred of Apple.

As I have said before; I use and support products from both companies, as well as many others. They each have a role and a place that they out perform the other. To think otherwise is simple minded.

--tayme

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tayme

It's pretty silly to rewrite what I wrote when it was in this very thread.

What I said was that the PowerMacs cannot just not "use *all* of the new features" of Snow Leopard. They cannot use Snow Leopard *at all*.

That's what makes them abandoned.

tayme

And, as such, you have your answer to your hypothetical Zune question based on your fantasies about Microsoft.

Once again as I already said (a hundred pingbacks or so ago)

Two year old iPods are NOT abandonware because, although they're no longer sold, they are still supported in the iPod ecosystem.

Two year old Zunes are NOT abandonware because, although they will no longer be sold, they are still supported in the Zune ecosystem.

Mike,

Yes, the distinction you've drawn about Zune abandonment and PowerPC "abandonment" is perfectly clear.....in your mind and nowhere else. You can SAY it over and over, as much as you like, but it remains a distinction without a difference.

And we don't even need to speak of the "Plays for Sure" debacle. Howlingly funny, that phrase, in light of what happened with it.

As for the Zune, this pretty much makes the point about that gadget:

www.techflash.com/.../iPhone_app_wins_top_honors_at_Microsoft_sponsored_event56282747.html

14 of 15 contestants developed with Microsoft tools, and the iPhone App won. Since the iTouch is now the iPhone without ATT, I think we can see how this competition with the Zune will now unfold.

Sorry Mike you can't have it both ways.

IF (and thats and if since we don't know for sure) Microsoft releases a new version of the Zune OS that is not supported on current or older Zunes, then it is abandonware.

It does not make any difference about the ecosystem. PowerPC Macs can still buy and run available software, download music and videos to from the itunes store and play them etc.  Yet you call that abandonware.  The Mac OS ecosystem still supports PowerPC macs.

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@mikegalos - You called PPC based Macs abandonware because they are no longer sold and can not run the Mac OS X Snow Leopard because it is Intel only. They can still use the Apple ecosystem - ie, they still receive patches and in fact, I can still purchase new software from Apple and other sources that run on a PPC based Mac computers.

In my hypothetical Zune question, I am assumming that the older Zunes will not only no longer be sold or be able to install the new Zune OS...but will be able to continue to utilize the Zune Pass (hopefully!) for music. Games and other applications will most likely not be compatible.

My question to you is, "Which do you consider more abandoned?" You can choose to ignore this question or wait until all is official to respond, if you wish.

--tayme

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tayme

The PowerPC Mac is no longer in production

Apple's current system software no longer works on PowerPC Macs

The PowerPC Mac is abandonware

It's really not that hard a concept.

It's not a "more abandoned" opinion thing. There really are industry terms and they really have meaning even when you don't want them to. And PowerPC Mac is Abandonware.

Again, dropping a model alone doesn't make it abandoned.

It doesn't for the Gen 1 iPod

It doesn't for the Gen 1 Zune

Not supporting ALL features of the new system sofware doesn't make it abandoned

It doesn't for 64-bit support on 32-bit Macs

It doesn't for 64-bit support on 32-bit non-Apple PCs

@chuck:

PlaysForSure wasn't abandoned.  It was renamed.  Partners can still leverage their investments in Windows Media DRM technologies, but they now must fully certify their hardware for Windows Vista, hence the renaming of certified PMP's from "PlaysForSure" to "Certified for Windows Vista".  It is otherwise the same.  Microsoft still offers it.  They just chose something different for their own PMP.  How is that any different from Apple not licensing out FairPlay or make iTunes interoperable for manufacturers that want to have their PMP's work on the Mac platform?  (Answer: it isn't)

yoshipod

If, for some bizarre reason, Microsoft releases a new Zune ecosystem and that new ecosystem will not work *at all* with older Zunes that would be abandoning the older Zunes.

Of course there's ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that such a thing is going to happen beyond the fantasies of some Apple loyalists who seem to love making up these fantasies to avoid discussing the reality that Apple abandoned their customers only 3 years into the lifespan of major products. (The industry standard since the 1950s and IBM tube based mainframes has been 6 years MINIMUM between introduction and discontinuation of backward compatibility)

So the backwards compatibility standard for Apple's OS X SL running on ‘computers’, is to be based upon Microsoft's older Zune hardware and whether those Zunes will be usable (they will) after the Zune HD ships?

That has to be the lowest backward compatibility standard for a computer operating system I have ever heard of. Do Apple fans and supporters really want to establish this sort of comparison as something of a baseline?

If comparisons are required, and I think they are not, since a great many Apple users upgrade to new computers as a larger percentage, more frequently than do their PC brothers and sisters (assuming were all from the same family of people that love technology), then the market into which Apple succeeds has to be considered for what it is - a unique subset of the larger personal computing market. One cannot compare "average" users from either camp, because average users from each side are so different. Enthusiast users from each side are also very different. On the Apple side enthusiasts buy new Macs regularly. On the PC side enthusiasts build their own new systems regularly, or they buy custom systems from people like me.

@mikegalos

In my hypothetical, but highly probable scenario:

The non-touch Zune is no longer in production

Microsoft's current system software no longer works on non-touch Zunes

The non-touch Zune is abandonware

It's really not that hard a concept.

There, finally an answer to my question. Do you agree?

--tayme

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@Tayme,

Current Zune hardware will continue to work with the Zune Marketplace and Zune Pass subscriptions. Nothing about the new Zune HD, or its OS will prevent existing hardware, all the way back to the original hard disc drive based models from working.

The older devices have not been abandoned; however, the new Zune HD will have capabilities that are not supported on older Zune hardware - in the exact same way as there are features on Apple's iPod Touch that are not supported on the iPod classic, Nano, or Shuffle.

@Iketchum - I assume that you consider me an "Apple fan and supporter" above. But really, I just use some of Apple's products, in much the same way that I use Microsoft, Palm, Red Hat, and many other companies' products. That said,  what you are asking is not what I am saying at all.

What I am looking for is a little bit of consistency from people like mikegalos, robertsjoe, Waethorn, and the other simple minded brand loyalists. They all like to say that one thing is true for the company that they like to rally against, but not for their company of choice. Its really kind of childish. It is like a spoiled little kid saying that "I can play with this toy but you can't because, even though I am not playing with it right now, I was 10 minutes ago." or "I am right because I say I am right."

--tayme

FYI: freakyfelt's opening comment here was quoted in Wired's "coverage" (air quotes reflecting that Wired is NOT what it used to be)

www.wired.com/.../zune-discontinues-all-current-zunes

@Iketchum - The same can be said for the PPC based Macs. Nothing is preventing them from being used. That is not my point. Please don't tell me you are as simple minded as some of the others here.

--tayme

tayme

I'm amused by how you not only create your own fantasyland scenarios and expect other people to act on them as though they were facts but, on top of it, declare your own speculation as "hypothetical, but highly probable"

Tell you what, I'll stick with facts (like Apple abandoning their highest end customers after only 37 months) and you can play in your own self-created and self-respected fantasyland.

tayme

As an FYI on how to show " a little bit of consistency" you might want to note that when I gave examples to try to get you to understand the concept of "abandonware" as having more of an actual meaning than your "When Apple does it it doesn't count. When I pretend Microsoft will do it in the future it's heinous" postings I gave both Apple and Microsoft examples.

Giving examples from both camps seems pretty solidly consistent. Maybe you could learn a lesson there.

@mikegalos - Actually, your definition of Abandonware is not correct. nor did I "expect" anybody to act on them. I gave you the option to ignore them repeadedly or to respond once an official announcement is made. Furthermore, I never said anything close to "When Apple does it it doesn't count. When I pretend Microsoft will do it in the future it's heinous".

You really need to learn a thing or two about social interaction and consistency. Its really pretty sad, the life that you must lead. I'll leave you to your own little "fantasyland" where Microsoft is the innovator in every case, and anybody using a *NIX based system is a relic.

I have once again shown how truly blinded you are...and I'll be back in a few weeks to do so again; because one thing that I am sure of is that you will still be having these same arguments on Paul's sites, because yours fails to generate hits. See ya then!

--tayme

@tayme,

Absolutely - which is I why I opined that comparisons between Zune hardware and Apple's OS X SL are inappropriate.

Even comparing OS X SL to Windows in the context of backward compatibility is inappropriate. For Microsoft is is a priority. For Apple it is not, because the markets are quite different. Offering examples relevant to one platform, or family of PMP's is unhelpful.

The thread all about the Zine HD being the only PMP MS will move forward with - while all existing Zines will work as they currently do. Pretty simple.

Now... here's what some may have missed... what does this signal.... could it be that that Microsoft is going to open up the Zune Marketplace to other devices? I bet they - particularly in light of code pink and the Oct 6 release of WinMob 6.5. The extension of the entire marketplace is likely and universally.

The Zine HD will be MS's own offering in the high end PMP market. I think making the Zune Marketplace open to other devices is a lot more interesting of a story.

tayme

Actually, "my definition" of abandonware is the one used in the industry. And I applied it equally in my examples to both Apple and Microsoft.

Perhaps you can give us the one you're using. It  appears to be "A bad thing that thus can never be done by Apple regardless of inconvenient facts and thus also will be done by Microsoft at some point  regardless of inconvenient facts"

Again, feel free to give us your own personal definition and how you apply it equally to both Apple and Microsoft.

Safari 4

iTunes 8

iWork '09

iLife '09

All these Apple products are currently shipping and support the PowerPC platform.

Therefore the Apple ecosystem still supports the PowerPC.  

Thus by your reasoning, the PowerPC is not abandonware.

yoshi

The difference is that you can use a Macintosh without Safari or iTunes or iWork or iLife and many people do.

You cannot use a Macintosh (at least AS a Macintosh) without Mac OS. Mac OS is a required part of the Macintosh ecosystem and not an optional extra and as such when it stops supporting a product line, that line is abandoned.

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So you are saying the ONLY thing that makes the ecosystem is the OS.

So when the Zune HD comes out and supports a variety of new features, such as HD, Touch etc. and the OS does not work on the  older Zune models, then the Zune is abandonware?

I'm just trying to figure out what this ecosystem you talk about it.

Because it sounds like you just consider support of the latest version of the OS as the ecosystem, not the entirety of all available software and hardware.  

So on Sept 16th....

Can you buy a new PPC Mac = NO

Can you buy a new Zune 120 or Zune 8 or Zune 16 = NO (assuming everyone is out of stock)

Will SL install on a PPC Mac = NO

Will Zune 3.0 OS work on older Zunes, some as old as 1 day = NO

Is PPC Mac still supported by software and hardware vendors outside of Apple = Yes (in some cases yes as Leopard will still get updates, security only, and patches for iWork/iLife will continue)

Is Zune 1-2.0 still supported by hardware vendors outside of MS (docking stations/car hookups) = YES

Can you still use your PPC Mac with leopard and applications like Office 2008, CS4 and others for years to come = YES

Can you still use your Zune device to play music and other media for years to come = YES

Will new SN only software work on a PPC Mac = NO

Will new only Zune 3.0 apps work on older Zunes = NO

Are Mike and Iketchum gas bags that cant admit they are wrong = YES

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