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Why the goofy names DLO?

Get your new Zune HD, and side on a Action Jacket.. better yet, a silicone based Jam Jacket!!!

lol.. that was supposed to say  "slide"

Great!! The Zune HD will be amazing!!

I particularly like the way "Marketplace" has the last "e" cut off.  It's brilliant.

If I ever handed in a piece of code and my UI had a cut off letter like that...it wouldn't be a nice day, let's just leave it at that.

Zune HD.

@panache1023: silly... It is part of the design!!!... silly

haha, that cutoff e is hilarious, so microsoftey! lol

is that all you got ocean? lolol

animositysomina  said:

"haha, that cutoff e is hilarious, so microsoftey! lol"

This is a design choice... I really don't understand your point??!!

The only thing it miss is a phone in the Zune HD...

Why it is so long to get a ZunePhone??

EricoF3,

Your comment is ridiculous, and here is why

1)  If they DESIGNED it so that the "e" is cutoff, that is just plain AWFUL DESIGN, and MS of all companies should know better.  Something like "Marketpl..." would be better.  (Notice, I said something"LIKE", not that exact thing)

2)  If it was NOT designed like that, then it is just awful.

Either way it's awful.  How you say, "that's the design" is beyond me.

Like I said.  I design GUIs all day long.  If I *EVER* went to my boss and suggested that we sit down a commodities trader in front of a screen that I created that had ANY TEXT cutoff whatsoever, it would not be a nice day.  Needless to say I would need to rework the screen until it was right.

Give me a break, "This is a design choice"

There are several ways to deal with "Marketplac". I can't think of terribly pleasing ones. Squeezed font just for that line? Not good. Squeezed font for all lines? I haven't seen the machine--I don't know whether that works.

There is also change "Marketplace" to something shorter. Like "Store" or "Mall". Perhaps the executive who didn't like "Store" is gone now.

This gets to be more fun when the machine is internationalized, as English tends to use shorter words/phrases than other languages. (Anyone know the Finnish for "Marketplace"?

This seems like a remarkably small thing for those of us in the bleachers to be obsessive about.

Oh I do wish the Zune HD was coming to the UK. I can't wait for the review. Does anyone know what the prices are for the new Zunes?

Wow. Who gives a crap about a half out of view "e"? Everyone knows it Marketplace.

The Zune HD looks awesome!

"Who gives a crap about a half out of view "e"?"

Apparently a couple of people who probably weren't planning on buying it do.

""Who gives a crap about a half out of view "e"?"

I agree.  It's a stupid argument.

It's something someone should have been disciplined for, but it's a stupid thing to rip the product over.

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Why spend money one something that is dead before it hits the shelves? The Zune HD is dead.

@Panache Why hasn't anybody thought of the fact that the cutoff 'e' might not be what it seems? Any idea? lol. I am surprised that nobody has imagined that the text might scroll as of yet! What if they need text that is even longer at some point? My choice would be to scroll the text across the screen, but hey that is just me! LOL. ;)

@robertsjoe Oh, I don't know. Because it isn't dead before it hits the shelves maybe? lol. The product will do just fine and Zune is far from dead as a brand. They are simply shifting to more of a software approach and keeping the hardware line simplified. Heck, they are even including it in the Xbox 360 and future smartphones. It is definitely far from dead! :)

The UI scales, zooms (really quickly) in, out, right, left and up and down. In each area, there are very large touch controls.

Once you see it in action up very close, it's easier to understand how it works and how insignificant the seemingly cut off "e" is.

The best way I can decribe it is of you take the twist interface and add zoom controls to accomodate really excellent touch features (because the digital targets are round like the human finger is - and not square). To this, add the same sort of in task control relevance evident in the fluent UIX. Bing twist interface and also for Fluent interface SDK and you'll find good information about how to leverage it.

I think that once people see it and feel it, they'll understand how really good the UI is.

Cash for Clunker PCs.

www.cashforclunkerpcs.com

Get rid of that crappy PC hardware and get something a lot better.

@Everyone who complains about the 'e'

Please, don't be a hater. ok? OK?

God I think myself and everyone else that responded are sick and tired of people complaining about the cut off 'e'.

IT'S A DESIGN CHOICE! (Yes looking at your ignorance panache1023. >_>)

People already know what the word is, so they can cut it off as a design choice. Wether people like it is an individual preference. At the AEON here in Japan they have designs on the walls that advertise some of the food and guess what...the word are cut-off! gasp!

But what it does and did for me is that I took more attention to the word and thought about it more. Just as you, panache1023, and many other people are taking notice to the Marketplace on the ZuneHD.

Microsoft designed the trap and caught your attention to their profit area. Point Microsoft! +1

The key word in all of it is "GAMES" imho.  

I think MS is going to push the games angle, sort of like a DS or PSP or iTouch/iPhone.  There has been talk of a handheld gaming device since MS shipped the 360.  If anything MS is a software company, and they have been doing games for sometime now with Windows, xbox and xbox 360.  Lets just hope this device is a little more sturdy than the 360.

About the "e", as we shall call it.

It looks to me like there might be an "e" at the end of "Marketplace".  Has anyone confirmed other than these picturest that the "e" is in fact cut off?

Paul, perhaps you can answer this question.

Okay, perhaps I should have searched first.  I did see that the "e" is actually cut off, a little, not half.  However, that was from a concept pic I found on Google.

As someone has pointed out, the mockup is bad and that person did a bad job.  Perhaps, thought, the concept shots and the actaul device are different.

I recall a person on here who has actually held a Zune HD.  Can this person confirm or deny the problem of the "e"?

Perhaps I should read all of the posts before I comment.  lketchum seems to have answered my question

You know, even if the "e" is cut off, it still looks like a rounded "E" (kind of looks like a Euro sign). So it it still says "Marketplace.

news.cnet.com/.../Zune_HD_low_rez_610x406.jpg

www.euro.lt/.../Euro%20brezinys_EC1.JPG (dial-up warning: large image)

"[...] how small the Zune HD really is"

After comparing the Zune HD and an iPod Touch next to each other, you just keep thinking how bloated the iPod looks and feels.

With the iPod Touch and iPod Nanos getting cameras, plus other goodies, who would even touch a Zune HD? Zune HD is dead.

"Wow. Who gives a crap about a half out of view "e"? Everyone knows it Marketplace."

It's this lack of style, care and attention that attracts people it does to Microsoft and their inferior products.

Re: the "clipped e"

Personally, I think the Zune design team did it to demonstrate how the self-proclaimed "creative" Apple fans were really pedants who hate anything not rigidly conventional.

If that was the goal, it seems to be working. If that wasn't the goal, it's a useful side effect.

Microsoft: Spreading FUD and lies. Typical.

www.appleinsider.com/.../microsoft_unleashes_retail_talking_points_attacking_linux_macs.html

"Personally, I think the Zune design team did it to demonstrate how the self-proclaimed "creative" Apple fans were really pedants who hate anything not rigidly conventional.

If that was the goal, it seems to be working. If that wasn't the goal, it's a useful side effect."

You'll find an excuse for anything. It had no goal. It looks bad. It's terrible even. That's all it is.

robertsjoe

Thanks for proving my point so quickly and accurately.

I knew I could count on you.

@mike: you haven't proven a point on this blog since 1953.

U mm..those are silicone covers for the Zune, not the Zune itself, I'm an Apple fan and I'm feeling embarrassed with all the adolescent Mac Fanbois comments.

I guess there's a difference between a Mac fan and a fanatic.

I actually went to a local Best Buy and checked out the new Zunes a week or so ago.

Their actually very nice and feel expensive,the screen is beautiful and very responsive.

I also saw an App folder on the screen so I think there are still more surprises coming from the Zune guys.

I will most likely be buying a Zune Black 32 Gig when its available.

I think there is a difference between "Mac" fans and "Apple" fans. I'm not sure when it happened, but something changed not too many years ago (perhaps 12 or so). As the personal computer industry progressed from hobbyists and went to business and the main stream markets, Apple was at least appreciated as a choice. I remember it and liked it but held out for the IBM PC. I was a Timex Sinclair user at the time (remember the memory expansion module falling off and taking with it several hours work?). A few guys had Apple ]['s but the basic was pretty awful until Microsoft's was licensed. By then IBM's were shipping and while they cost a small fortune, out of the box there were better tools. Sorry to digress... but it is relevant (a little).

Now, without question, Apple did some things right with the iPod and later touch. That does not change the reality that they were also dang lucky - that rampant online theft of music helped their early success. They exploited it well and without it touching them in any way. That was masterful.

Now, the Zune HD really changes things, A LOT! It is the first device of its type with enough power to turn devs loose. What can be done on such a platform is going to surprise a lot of people - perhaps not at first, but very quickly devs will begin to do things that few can imagine being possible on such a small device.

I wish I could comment further, but I cannot - not yet.

Mike Galos is also right about the take away experience between Zune HD and the iPod Touch. The touch feels really "fat" and out of touch, really, but only after one has used the Zune HD, which simply amazes. You walk away from it kind of stunned - how could something so small and thin and cool (as in temp) run so much so fast?!?!? It blew me away. There's more - much more and all I can say to devs is, "WOW!"

For all: man... just enjoy it all and I do mean all... we are all so blessed and so fortunate. We fuss over devices that delight us. It was not so long ago, as it remains in many other places, where people had so much less and in far more cases than there should be, nothing it all. Either side of the fan base, just enjoy what you have.

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Paul, thanks for the heads-up about the ZHD launch.  Just pre-ordered the Platinum on Amazon.  Maybe it's me, but ever since I got the Brown 30G, the Zune experience has been a huge point of difference compared to the alternatives and great fun.  Not to mention that the software doesn't constantly nag to be upgraded every 30 days.  By the way, does anyone know who's the hardware source.  I once heard that Toshiba was the mfg. partner for the original model.  Are they still in the game?  To be sure, the Zune hw has a much different track record than the Xbox.  A  tale of two different products, reliability-wise!

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lketchum

"remember the memory expansion module falling off and taking with it several hours work? "

Well, that was something you fancy types who could justify shelling out the extra money for 16KB of RAM...

:-)

I do remember being amazed that there actually was a flight simulator for the Timex-Sinclair that ran on the base unit without the extra RAM pack. Now that was some tight Z80 programming.

(At the time I was getting occasional commercial gigs programming TRS-80s running TRS-DOS in BASIC and Z80 Assembler)

Wow, you guys are all (most) a bunch of freaks.

The cut off "e" looks awful. PERIOD.  How you can justify it, or point fingers at Apple is just plain weird....and why the hell does a cutoff "e" on the Zune have ANYTHING at all to do with Apple?!  Talk about being obsessed!

Who knows, maybe in person with an actual unit it scrolls and looks just fine.  However, looking at the picture, it looks stupid.

Meanwhile, who's obsessing about the "e"?!  One comment about the "e" looking dumb is obsessing?

Making a comment that the "e" being cutoff is a horrible "design choice" (if it IS in fact a design choice), and all of a sudden I'm "ignorant".

You people never seem to amaze.

Everyone that keeps saying how great "smaller" is because other things feel "bloated" or whatever.

I have really big hands.  I don't like to hold things that are too small.  I have a hard time picking out cell phones because for some reason, people in the industry think the smaller something is, the better.....so wrong.

Give me something that is small but that still FEELS like something in my hand please.  I'd take that over the "smaller" item any day.

robertsjoe: who cares?

Everyone else talking about the "e": who cares?

"Wow, you guys are all (most) a bunch of freaks."

How dare you disagree with panache?

Shark,

Your douche-ness comes out again.

*YOU* are the only one that said anything about disagreeing with me.  The point is, LOOKING at the picture, seeing text cut off on a screen looks bad.

Like I said, maybe once the device actually launches, there will be a nice resolution to the issue...scrolling text, or whatever.

But looking at in a marketing photo, it's idiotic.

Of course, since it's MS, you can't agree that something they have released to the public is idiotic, can you?

Shark, until you stop being such a douche, why don't you just sit back silently and just keep praising all things MS?

One more thing Shark,

No one has disagreed that it looks bad.  I just hear a lot of people making EXCUSES.

Wow, you're dumb.

The pricing for the new iPod Touch is out.  16GB for $249, 32GB for $279.  This is very comparable to Zune HD pricing of 16GB for $219 and 32GB for $289.  

I am sooooo going to get a 32GB Zune HD.  I am as giddy as a school girl waiting for the "Ides of September".  

BTW, I think the partial "e" is stupid.  Why doesn't MS just write an "I'm a Mac, I'm a PC" commercial for Apple.

"With the iPod Touch and iPod Nanos getting cameras, plus other goodies"

You know this for sure?  Or are you just guessing?  Let's wait until the details get released.  And let's wait until we actually get the Zune HD in the flesh before we start talking about alleged shortcomings.

Since this site worships (and many of it inhabitants) market share it will be interesting to see what the results are by this time next year. Apparently Apple was "finished" because *all* they did was change the colors, then a certain someone rearranged deck chairs on the Titanic (again) and Apple demolished the competition yet again.

Meanwhile THIS is the year that the Zune willl finally break through. Interesting, sounds like the same argument for Linux that many here belittle. In short Pot meet kettle... This will be the year that the Zune will reign supreme? Anyone care to bet on that?

Suffice of to say until this is a hit I'm borrowing a page from many of the people here and my response is: Market-share! Now please commence mental gymnastics, attribute it to pure marketing or  whatever you need to make yourself feel better. Trot out your laundry list of features as to why the Zune is "better".

Meanwhile I'll pony up a spot on the sofa next to Tayme & watch the hilarity ensue. He leans more to the MS side, I more re towards  Apple. I don't begrudge his choices, I'm willing to bet he doesn't begrudge mine. Should be Interesting, got the popcorn Tyame?

@Panache1023,

I've heard the good design/bad design opinion argument for a lot of years and it has never held much water. I mean for example, take the iPod classic's interface and click wheel - many raved about it. I hated it and I could say I know a thing or two about both industrial and software design, but really... what does that mean (I don't think I do, by the way - despite building a lot of both).

What I am saying is that one never really knows until a design is tested by real people doing everyday things. I've seens designs I love and they have flopped. Obviously, I have seen designs I don't like and the rest of the world has raved about them. I really like the Zune HD's design and it remains to be seen if others will, too.

You're getting a little worked up over a vowel, that in its cropped form, you won't see for long and the way the UI zooms, you're really going to get worked about what does not matter.

It is different - so let it be and I would encourage you to look at it in that context - let it stand on its own.

lketchum,

All I was saying was that "smaller != better".

The Zune HD is the first Zune I would actually consider buying.  I'd need to actually try it out first...

The weird part is....the feature I'd be most interested in is the HD Radio.

Just because I think that the cutoff "e" looks idiotic, does NOT mean I don't think the Zune HD could be a good product.

Believe it or not...I can actually find faults in products and still like them!  I know it's hard for a lot of you to find fault in MS products because you love them so much...I find plenty of faults in them, but I still like them very much (XBOX 360, Win 7 for example)

"Shark, until you stop being such a douche, why don't you just sit back silently and just keep praising all things MS?"

Oooh, there's the name calling again. I guess that's how we win arguments these days, eh? Been watching too much Sean Hannity lately?

"No one has disagreed that it looks bad.  I just hear a lot of people making EXCUSES."

Actually, you called them "a bunch of freaks" for disagreeing with your notion that it's a big deal. And when I called it out, you went on your Hannityesque rampage against me. Good job.

@Panache1023,

You're going to see a lot of cut-off elements and that is the point here - as those elements fade into the background, and large controls are featured on the surface. It is definitely different and leverages a 3D capability that people (I think) are going to really like.

So convention is out the window. The Zune HD changes e v e r y thing. It's an entirely new approach to getting an awful lot into a little window without feeling like things are cramped. It's really well done and just cool to see how it works. The user always knows what to do and without having to be "familiar" with it. I really like that.

Also, it's totally cool to hate on a competitor. It's like being a sports fan. It becomes silly when the advocacy for one team over another becomes personal. I guess what I am saying is that it is one thing to dump on a team and another to dump on other fans personally - (not saying you did/do that), just saying it all becomes a little weird when that happens and the name calling and what not starts to pop up.

lketchum,

Our discussion crossed topics by accident I think.  My issue regarding small was how the unit (or existing units) feel in my hands.

Not about cramming a lot of text on a small screen.  And again, my point was that they could have mocked up a better screen shot.

Shark,

Again, I didn't call anyone freaks for disagreeing.  Noone disagreed it looked bad.  I called them freaks for shoo-ing away what clearly LOOKS BAD IN A PICTURE as "design choice".

It's amazing you can't understand that, no matter how many times it's explained to you.

Sean Hannity?  Not my type.

OK, so here's the thing: You think it's a disaster. Others think it's not a disaster and is probably a "design choice". I guess that's enough justification to call them names.

@Panache1023,

Yeah, I know. My hands are very wide and and most CE devices feel dinky in them. It is an issue - heck, even keyboards are these days.

If that is an issue for you, too - then you'll dig the Zune HD. As I've shared, the touch targets are large and round. Where I could not use an iPhone/iPod Touch easily, I found I could use the Zune HD easily. My fingers "fit" on the UI well and I did not miss, or hit adjacent targets.

If you have large hands, like many of us do, then the Zune HD will be easier for you to use than other touch interface enabled devices.

Shark,

Please point out where I said anything regarding the Zune was a "disaster".

lketchum,

I don't have a problem with the iPod Touch interface.  I'm not talking about the UI being small (though it could be an issue with my fat fingers), I meant actually holding the device itself...it's partially why I hate cell phones...they're too damn small.

Next time I'm in a Best Buy or something, I'll have to check out the Zune...I'm not in the market for a new player right now, but you never know what could happen.

"Please point out where I said anything regarding the Zune was a "disaster"."

I meant the cut off "e" and not the Zune itself.

Shark,

Please point out where I said that the cutoff "e" was a disaster?

Thanks.

This is a design choice... They have choice to put a smaller font or  ... forget it!

Are you asking me to point out where you used the word "disaster"? You didn't, but go ahead and feel free to reread some of your comments. While you didn't use that exact word, you did say a lot to imply that it was a flop as far as UIs go.

WOW!  60-odd comments long and all that panache can criticize on the Zune HD is the fact that one UI element is missing a single letter.

I guess if that's the worst he can do, the Zune HD will be a big success.

Wow, you guys see a criticism, and blow it way out of proportion!

Yes, having a cut off letter looks bad...UI flop?!  Give me a freaking break!

I'll say it one more time...

If I submitted a screen for check in that had letters cut off, and expected a commodities trader to use it and be happy, I'd have to deal with my boss, and the screen would need to be reworked so it didn't look like an oversight.

Why can't you guys say, "Yes, letters shouldn't be partially cut off", instead of railing on someone for making a criticism of an obviously flawed image?

Waethorn,

I didn't know that my opinion was the barometer of success for the Zune HD.

I hope the Zune HD does well...it will give Apple more incentive to improve their iPods.  But, based on the MS's track record in this area, I doubt it will happen.....

We'll have to wait and see I guess.

@Panache:

"If I ever handed in a piece of code and my UI had a cut off letter like that...it wouldn't be a nice day, let's just leave it at that."

"Either way it's awful.  How you say, "that's the design" is beyond me."

"Making a comment that the "e" being cutoff is a horrible "design choice"..."

"... it looks stupid."

"... it's idiotic."

There you go. And you call out others for obsessing over this?

Shark,

You are the guy that will take anything out of context to prove a point.

Instead of quoting me out of context, why don't you tell the truth, and show that those quotes were in response to other people, and not me just posting over and over again the same thing out of nowhere, which would be obsessing.

Or better yet, why don't you just stop trying to prove...whatever point that it is you are trying to prove.  You are failing miserably.

Shark,

Where did I call anyone out for obsessing over this?  I said the fact a comment about a cut-off letter brought in comments about Apple proved the level of obsession of Apple on this board.

You clearly have no reading comprehension.  Just give it up!

If the entire UI was otherwise conformed to the screen and did not utilize cut-off objects as UI elements, I would agree that it would be a poor design choice to have a single letter partially cut-off. However, This is not the case. The Zune HD's UI is very fluid, with various 3D effects, and what you are seeing is a portion of an environment on which the UI elements are placed. The intended effect is abolishment of the notion of the screen edge as a boundary -- this is most evident when you drill down into the various areas of the UI, where the title is placed at the top of the screen, enlarged, darkened, and much of it is cut off. Enter the 'Music' section and you will find 'Music' at the top of the screen is mostly cut off -- but you still know that it says 'Music'. Additionally, when you enter a submenu, the main menu 'rotates' like a door opening to the left -- and you clearly see the whole 'e'.

This actually is not very different from the current Zune, which also cuts off long lines as a design choice. They could've easily used one of various methods to bring all of 'Marketplace' on-screen, but they chose not to.

Considering only an image of the main menu with no other knowledge of the UI, it looks like an error was made. Only once you see the UI in action do you realize how much the choice makes sense. Does it look good? That just depends on the individual, I suppose. As a motif, I like it. It emphasizes nonconformism throughout the UI, without compromising usability or readability.

Psst...guys:

The cut off "e" is on a printed cardboard insert used to convey the impression  "this is what the case will look like when you put your ZuneHD into it". I doubt the insert fits perfectly into the case.

I can't believe some of you think it is actually a ZuneHD, and a turned on one at that, in that box.

I know you're smarter than that.

Maybe?

Planetarian,

Well said man, well said.

The cut-off 'e' is indeed in the final product as far as I am aware. All videos I've seen of the ZHD's UI have shown it to be in the main menu.

Perhaps also worth noting is that the bottom half of 'podcasts' is also cut off. This may make more sense in general as an indicator that the menu continues below the screen, but it is consistent with cutting off the e -- as an indicator that the UI is not conforming strictly to the screen.

Planetarian,

Gotta link to one of them videos? Just one.

check this one out, demoed by Brian Seitz of the Zune team:

www.youtube.com/watch

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What a tedious thread. I wish I had half an "e" right now.