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The Zune HD is dead before it's out.

I guess we'll see. Certainly, the Zune is not just about the devices, as you will see.

Yay! I can't wait! Paul, can you ban robertsjoe? Lol

I hate to admit it, but I agree with the resident troll.

As for me, I'll be asleep at midnight. I'll catch up with the standard arguments torrow.

Keep the flame wars burning!

Robertsjoe, I'm sorry about what I said. Because, as my mom used to say, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.". sorry.

@Paul I couldn't agree more. The software is the good part of the equation. :) I am going to guess that the Zune/Xbox news is that the Zune Video Marketplace will launch in November (around black friday). That seems like a logical choice for a launch date (aside from the fact that I think they should have chosen to launch it beside the Zune HD). Either way, I will enjoy my shiny new Zune HD 32 GB. :)

I love my Zune 120GB, but I barely use 20GB of it right now, so a Zune HD 32GB will be perfect for me. Of course, what I really care about is the software... especially if it plays well with Windows 7!

Well, robertsjoe, I'll have one when it dies. (Bought soon, not pre-ordered.)

And in a sensible time zone, it will be 9PM.

I look forward to the Zune HD, but I love my flash Zune's the software is excellent and for someone who consumes podcasts voraciously  the Zune platform has no equal. I heard Alex Lindsay from MacBreak Weekly say he was considering a Zune because of the subscription model. A wise choice, my kids keep their's full for 15 dollars a month. A great deal in my opinion especially when you can keep 10 songs a month.

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No doubt that the Zune HD appears to be a sexy device, and perhaps well needed competition to the iPod.  That said, with the news that the Zune HD will support apps, I'm growing more and more confused as to Microsoft's strategy when it comes to the Zune, and Windows Mobile.  It seems silly to maintain two platforms, each with their own app stores, etc.  Wouldn't it make more sense to just have one?  Apple seems quite successful in selling boatloads of devices doing so.

All will be revealed... :)

.... three hours later than I originally thought. :)

I see you're drinking your coffee.  Still.  Good night for it don't you agree?

I say we keep robertsjoe. We need someone to represent the mindless fanboy drivel so we can point at and laugh. Laughing has been shown to be good for ones health.

Keep it goigg robertsjoe.  I'll never forget how you admited that genius RUNS from your family.

I say we keep everyone but stop the personal attacks. Just a thought.

@Paul Ok, sounds fair to me. Sadly, I will need a lot of coffee tonight though. :) I am not going to sleep until I see what the great Zune news is.

I cannot believe how much buzz this device has created. This is crazy!

@rjohn05 yeah, I knew people would like it, but typically most people are quite critical of Microsoft. It has been a pleasant surprise. :)

One things for sure, it will be far more interesting than the iPod announcements. I'm really curious to see that Microsoft is going to do with the Zune brand and I really hope it is more successful than it has been in the past because they have some really great products including the software which blows iTunes away. Having used an iPod Touch 2G since last November I can testify just how terrible iTunes has been on Windows. Crashes, freezing and slow as heck. Apple, not all of us are stupid like "Mr. PC".

Now come on Paul, spill the beans! :)

@therealjustin Exactly! I bet the wait is really getting to Leo Laporte! lol. He sounded like he really wanted to let us know about the Zune HD!

>>I say we keep everyone but stop the personal attacks. Just a thought.<<

I concur -- but I'd beg you to ease up on those that enjoy Apple products just a bit. Not all are sycophants or lemmings.

As for the Zune HD...meh.  After years of carting an iPod around I'm trying to get myself down to one device (aside from my Kindle).   I liked my Dash, and would go back to to Windows Mobile if I could find a truly compelling device in the space.  Maybe some of the HD tech will migrate...

Can't wait for the perspective in your review!

It's in da code... it's all in da code...

Been busy... busy... busy and can't wait till they see what everyone has cooked up. So many for so many more....

Shoot, even Leo sounded pumped up - over a Microsoft product!?! Leo's no dummy - he knows a winner when he sees one.

Well, I'll be up all night so I will be refreshing the site frequently to get that content.

By the way, do you have a flickr account or something where I could view your photography? You have some amazing photos.

>>I heard Alex Lindsay from MacBreak Weekly say he was considering a Zune because of the subscription model. A wise choice, my kids keep their's full for 15 dollars a month.<<

Here is the problem:  If it ever starts to gain traction, all Apple will do is 'turn it on' for it's iPod and iPhone users and they'll have an almost instant very significant chunk of the market.

That said, the ten free songs monthly does sexy it up.

Who is in your avatar evgenij?

If you're refreshing often you need the 'Reload Every' add-in for Firefox.  It's wonderful.

I'll be looking for it, but I won't have to stay up as late as everyone else ... just till 9pm (Hawaiian Standard Time!!).

I particulary interested in the Zune API (my day job is as a Windows programmer). Not well know, but there is a Zune API, and the software license seems to allow a developer to build upon that API and distribute it as well....

"I say we keep everyone but stop the personal attacks. Just a thought."

Couldn't agree more. I've never understood why people feel the need to personally insult each other when discussing something like a music player. People who care enough about these products to behave that way need to get a life.

Ocean,

I have several add ons for the purpose but I think I will just visit the page periodically and check for update manually.

And to answer your question, the person in my avatar is Vladimir Lenin.

>>I have several add ons for the purpose <<

Which ones do you use?

Ocean,

evgenij’s avatar is no other than, Vladimir Lenin - or Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov, as he was known to his parents.

He's known best for devising the dictatorship of the proletariat, or workers' state - the transitional period between a capitalist society and the classless utopia he promised the proletariat would eventually enjoy.

Sadly for the people subject to the theory, the system gave way to the tyranny of the majority - utterly repressing individuals, without which there is no reason to aspire, or pursue excellence. Spread that around and very little ever gets done and the masses sink into alcoholism, apathy and antipathy - the three AAA's if you will, characterizing the life in socialist states.

Such states neither would, or could produce a Zune HD.

Ocean

You didn't recognize Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov? (Владимир Ильич Ульянов if Penton's software supports Cyrillic)

Iketchum,

Being a Russian myself who lived there during USSR times I have to say that life was far better than after it's collapse which was the reason for my family to move to the United States.

Cool history lesson by the way, haha.

I have feeling that the Zune HD will have something to do with Netflix. It just makes sense. May be I'm wrong.

>>You didn't recognize Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov?<<

Now that he's said it, yes, I do.

>>very little ever gets done and the masses sink into alcoholism, apathy and antipathy - the three AAA's if you will, characterizing the life in socialist states.

Such states neither would, or could produce a Zune HD.<<

Oh, thats why it wasn't designed in California.  :)

Paul just posted this about the new iPods...no insults included.  :)

>>Apple has a mature and capable product that is a wonder of our time, especially for those companies foolish enough to try and compete with them. While the Zune platform in some ways exceeds what Apple has accomplished with its iPod/iTunes/iPhone ecosystem, no one can touch the Cupertino company from a broad perspective.<<

evenij,

First, welcome to America! Like all of us, you came here looking to build a better life - I hope you succeed in every possible way.

I like to quote Victor Belenko – “the old system is still in place, as are the old ways of thinking. The transition begun by Lenin was and would never be completed, because the tyranny of the majority, as led by the very few, would suffocate the people not once, but each day.” The red national socialist state did not become a democracy at all, but the exact tyranny Lenin feared most. As imperfect as it most certainly is, only a republic has proven capable of extending both liberty and prosperity to a large percentage of people with a diverse mix of abilities.

Most interestingly, states as led by Lenin can and often do conceive of great things - like the Zune HD. The problem is in the translation from conception into a practical application of that which is conceived. The Russians for example, knew exactly how to go to the moon, and before we in the west did - they simply could not translate that into a practical model. The conceived of a utopia, but could never deliver it - that must be done by others and selfishly, those who succeed at things, rarely if ever are the same as those who invented it. Search is a great example. PMP's are another. The inventors are hardly as successful as Google, or Apple's iPod line.

Now.. it remains to be seen... who will succeed at making the best and most successful hand-held computer... it is very likely not Apple! It may be Microsoft, but only time will tell.

Again, evenij, heartfelt welcome to your new home.

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Iketchum,

Thank you so much for your kind comments. I have lived here for over 7 years, actually. Personally, I have never got myself too much into politics but I will only say this - it is not even that perhaps Russians couldn't produce a device like Zune HD, it is more like that the Russians could never afford one anyway in the current times. USSR was great and when it climbing out of a big economical decline it fell again and collapsed on itself. Life became more difficult and painful so we moved here in 2002.

By the way, I own a Zune AND an iPod touch and love them both. Personally, I do not care if Apple or Microsoft creates a better product because each product will always be eventually outdated. If a product is good for it's time - I'll buy it from whoever.

So Zune HD looks awesome and I hope to buy it for Christmas!

ya'll remmber cartman in the South Park episode "Go God, Go!" - as he was waiting for the release of the Wii?

"C'mon... C'mon...!"

www.zune.net/.../default.htm

Mmmmmm.... Zune HD :)

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Wow! I just read the reviews that were posted and I am thrilled by the news for sure! Free Apps?!? Zune Video Marketplace in November (as I suspected), and the fact that they will expand Zune to Windows. This is great news! Of course, I am just guessing, but that means that it will replace Windows Media Player as we hoped? I would be very pleased if so because Zune is far better than WMP. Thank you for the great reviews Paul. I definitely look forward to hearing what Leo Laporte has to say about all of this on Windows Weekly. Anyway, that is all from me for now. Time to get some much needed rest.

And now the site (and software) are live.

So dissapointed with out things unfolded for me in Canada.....

Software 4.0 has a few mice updates but remains largely unchanged other than Quickplay.

They fixed the hold that allowed me to see Marketplace tab.  I still couldn't buy any content before, even the free stuff but at least I could browse and subscribe to podcasts.   Now I have to scrounge websites for RSS feeds and add them manually.  Oh and all that artist information and the mixview stuff..  That's all gone for me too.  Hard fail.

All the good will gained by updating past Zune to the new standard has been squandered now as well.    Sure there's a lot of stuff we couldn't do but adding the new front end with the quick Pins and the side-by-side menus could of easily been possible.   I wasn't asking for the browser of the apps but at least a minor facelift.

And lastly, still no plans for Canadian retail release of the HD.  I mean seriously.  You guys were at retail.

All of this is making me really happy I chose to get a Zune120 last year over an iPod Touch..

Just looked at some of the hands on photos. The Zune HD look very pretty. Especially when you compare it to the previous generations of Zune. I wish they were selling in the UK. I was thinking of trading in my iPhone for an iPod Touch but I would love to have the option of the Zune  as well.

@Grannyville

Same here, I would love to get a new Zune HD to complement, possibly even replace, my iPod Touch, but it's just not available where I live.  I think availability (or lack of it) is the key to the Zune's "failure" so far - iPods are everywhere, Zunes are not.

Paul,

Any idea about when/if this will be on sale worldwide? I'm in Portugal, you know... I really can't understand why MS does not sell the Zune worldwide...

the new Zune HD does look cool...

I'm most interested in the HD radio tuner.

Paul's review pages are down.....that sucks.

Not to rain on the Zune HD, I thinks its a great looking device....but this article really takes a good look at the hardware.  Iketchum has really pumped the CPU as something magical but its not.

www.appleinsider.com/.../from_oled_to_tegra_five_myths_of_the_zune_hd.html&page=1

"It's difficult to make fair and direct comparisons between different generations of technology, but NVIDIA's own demonstrations of Tegra's ARM11/integrated graphics show it achieving 35 fps in Quake III. The same software running on Pandora's Coretex-A8 with SGX GPU core achieves 40-60 fps."

"Tegra is also being hyped as providing "8 processing cores," but this is nonsense as it simply counts logical blocks common to all embedded SoC parts as "cores." The CPU in the Tegra is a single ARM11 core. Even if the Tegra did supply multiple CPU cores, the Windows CE kernel used by the Zune HD doesn't support multi-core SMP so it couldn't make any use of them. "

HD????

"The Zune HD's OLED screen isn't high definition in the sense of HDTV, of course. The screen itself is only 480x272, which is significantly less than the iPhone/iPod touch at 480x320. (That's 130k vs 153k pixels; the iPod/iPhone displays 18% more pixels)."

OLED....

"First off, Microsoft gave the Zune HD a new OLED display. OLED is an interesting new technology that uses a layer of electroluminescent organic compounds, rather than the inorganic materials used in traditional LCDs, to produce an image. OLED panels don't require a backlight, so they can render true blacks and provide a higher contrast ratio.

However, today's OLED panels are much dimmer than standard issue LCDs: a typical maximum output of 200cd/m^2 compared to around 4-500 for mid-range LCDs. OLED also performs considerably worse in bright light because OLED is 100% emissive rather than being partially transflective.

A good quality LCD actually uses ambient light to make its image brighter and more vibrant; OLED does not. This means when you take it outside, the OLED's screen is completely washed out by sunlight. Unless you only plan to use your mobile device in your dark basement, you don't want one of today's OLED screens, particularly on a mobile media player that you might expect to use on the go in various environments.

A shot in the dark

Microsoft knows this, which is why it only demonstrates the Zune HD in dark rooms. Engadget filmed a full demonstration, including the device's incapacity to pull up a web page, in a suspiciously dark room without even noting this. There are actually candles visibly flickering in the video behind the device.

Microsoft sets up its demos in the dark because the Zune HD looks terrible outside, where its contrast ratio advantage observed in ideal conditions completely falls apart. Engadget's other pictures of an OLED-using Sony Walkman show that without the candle-lit smoke and mirrors, OLED blacks are not black at all.

There are other problems with OLED. They don't last long, because the electroluminescence layer degrades far more rapidly than regular LCDs. Component colors within OLED also die at different times, with the blue pixels fading first. This results in a rapid shift of the color balance as the device ages. Additionally, the original color reproduction gamut of brand new OLED displays is already worse than standard LCD, resulting in less natural-looking colors from the start that only get worse. "

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While its wonderfully nice to thing that competition breeds better products... I don't know.

Focusing solely on the Zune. It may be a wonderful product, but as I have stated there is nothing compelling enough to cause the vast majority of people to migrate to it. Tayme, myself and I believe Subzerro have said as much. Zune's basic problem (from what I can see) is this rush to tie it into everything. As if functionality with the X-box is somehow going to magically catapult this into a success. Sorry not buying it. Even if every single person who owns an X-box bought one, its still not enough.

Zune tied into the X-box caters still to the same crowd: Those that by definition/choice/what have you, are avoiding Sony's PS3 because they are mad at Sony for some slight, those that won't buy an iPod because they dislike Apple. In short its not big enough to save the Zune.

Sorry, but Microsoft's usual tactics as a company can't be used here they way that have in the past. They are finding it is much harder to compete on merits of the device rather then simply using: "Embrace, Extend and Extinguish".

Next, MS is desperately trying to win this game, meanwhile competitors are seeing where this is shifting: away from stand alone PMP to smart phones, one would think that a company that has been producing Windows Mobile in its various incarnations  for years would get this. In other words if they ever "win" this (not likely) the game will have long since changed.

Lastly, don't let anyone fool you, this is a race for second place at best, at the very best. All MS can hope for is to supplant Creative, Cowon, and Sansa, etc, i.e. the ones that were left after Apple steam rolled through the category for a far distant second. And by then the PMP market will be shrinking, I think that it is largely at its high water mark now.

"Spread that around and very little ever gets done and the masses sink into alcoholism, apathy and antipathy - the three AAA's if you will, characterizing the life in socialist states."

Tell that to people living in Sweden (or any of the Nordic states, for that matter. Seems to me that the countries that have the highest taxes also have the most content people).

I'd call you a name, but I'm trying to heed Paul's plea to keep it civil. Beside, you're probably not a jackass, just dogmatic and ill-informed.

"This will consist of three hands-on photo galleries and part one of what will initially be a four-part review."

INITIALLY a four-part review? For an also-ran music player? Wow. Either Microsoft's getting desperate, or someone has serious diarrhea of the word processor.

I don't think Microsoft has done enough here. The lack of an app marketplace at launch is a mistake, IMHO. As the market leader, Apple can afford to have boring evolutionary updates and get away with it; Microsoft cannot.

I love that AppleInsider article. It seems Apple fanboys have their anti-Zune talking points. So sad.

"Paul just posted this about the new iPods...no insults included."

He gets most of it right (except for his weird anti-shuffle jihad. So it's not right for him...whatever). But what Paul (and most other reviewers) fail to note is that the iPod Classic also makes a great portable hard drive. It's more than just a media player for "people with large music collections". There are other ways to put that 160GB to good use. As Paul might say, "just a thought". :-)

Lotsa

With the greatest repsect, how do you know it's an also ran music player. Granted if you are talking market share, then yes. But from that point of view so are Apple Macs.

Have you actually used a Zune HD, compared it side by side to an iPod Touch? No?

Just because you dismiss it, doesn't mean that the player is no good or that it wont be a success.

Hey Paul, your SUPER SPECIAL AWESOME O'POSSUM REVIEWS are showing me this:

-=-=-=-=-

The page cannot be found

The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.

-=-=-=-=-

I'm guessing you started off by reviewing the Zunes web browser?

Some truths about the Zune HD.

www.appleinsider.com/.../from_oled_to_tegra_five_myths_of_the_zune_hd.html

"the Zune HD looks terrible outside"

"a serious performance bottleneck hobbling the Zune HD's Tegra"

"NVIDIA's own demonstrations of Tegra's ARM11/integrated graphics show it achieving 35 fps in Quake III. The same software running on Pandora's Coretex-A8 with SGX GPU core achieves 40-60 fps." -- a win for Apple. Zune HD using inferior GPU.

"The screen itself is only 480x272, which is significantly less than the iPhone/iPod touch at 480x320. (That's 130k vs 153k pixels; the iPod/iPhone displays 18% more pixels)."

"Unfortunately, HD Radio was given an intentionally misleading name." Microsoft misleading consumer, yet again!

And if you thought the hardware was inferior, the software is even worse! Nearly a DECADE behind the iPhone and others.

"Microsoft's own software for Windows Mobile and the Zune HD is similarly bad. Its mobile version of Internet Explorer still doesn't work despite having been on the market since 1996. What's "new" in the release of the Zune HD is a different version of the mobile IE browser, based not upon the creaky IE 4 engine from 1997 (still delivered in today's Windows Mobile devices), but a mobile version of IE 6, which dates back to 2001. That leaves the Zune HD's browser nearly a decade behind the modern WebKit browsers used in the iPhone, Palm Pre, Android, and modern BlackBerry phones."

the final quote, and something I've been saying all along...

"Despite the hype, the Zune HD appears to have failed before even hitting the market."

Yes folks, the Zune HD is dead before it's out.

UnnDunn,

Just curious.

If you loved that AppleInsider article, I gues it means you read it.  I read it.

Are they just "Apply fanboy anti-Zune talking points", or are the points the article makes valid?

If anyone else read that article, is there anything in there (besides the anti-MS bias) that can be disputed?  Are they really just "Apple fanboy anti-Zune talking points", or is there something to consider in the points that are made?

Hi Paul,

Your Zune HD reviews give page not found.

It's funny to see iFanatics descending in hordes to discredit an "also ran" mp3 player. I'm sure there are a lot of moderate Mac fans out there, but they're probably the ones who wouldn't visit sites with a Windows focus, such as this one.

Is this a prophecy?  :)

www.winsupersite.com/.../zunehd_hw.asp

Page Not Found

Shark,

Or maybe there are some "moderate Mac fans" that are also "Windows fans", or maybe they are just "general technology fans"

Why do you need to label everyone?

Page not found is probably on purpose, the whole NDA deal.  Probably waiting for the signal from the Mothership.

Shark loves labels.  I would say 30% of his posts are labeling.

There is bias on that appleinsider article, but nothing compared to Paul's iTunes review.

You are going to get some bias everywhere.  Its the level and the way its displayed that makes the difference.

Will Somebody wake Paul up and tell him his Zune HD review page isnt accessible.

shark47  said:

It's funny to see iFanatics descending in hordes to discredit an "also ran" mp3 player.

*********

You mean like when the WinJihadists attempt discredit Apple and the Mac? Yeah you're right.

rr0de,

I know there is bias in that appleinsider article.  There are also statements that are NOT biased that are presented as fact.

I am asking whether or not those facts are true, and if so, are there any....  "implications" regarding the Zune HD.

A few weeks ago Mike Galos was touting how great the Zune HD is because of the OLED screen and Tegra chips.  That article calls his points into question.  Are the questions those points raise valid legitimate questions?

Isn't that the kind of discussion everyone says they want on this board?!

I am asking a very real question that I am interested in hearing the answer to and discussing...

Will anyone answer?

Lordy there are a lot of "Kanye West" moments coming from the Apple/iPod/iTouchMySelf guys this morning.

@panache:

Perhaps the only potentially valid issue the appleinsider article brought up was the speculated lifespan of the OLED screen, and even that was just speculation and theory.

Everything else is just the blind rantings of someone who, most likely, has never seen a Zune HD in person and is searching for whatever he can to criticize it with.

But the Apple fanboys will eat it up (as seen in this very thread.)

"You mean like when the WinJihadists attempt discredit Apple and the Mac? Yeah you're right. "

Yes, if they comment on AppleInsider or another Apple centric site. I, for one, never visit those sites, because I know I will never agree with the content on them. Regarding "labeling" people, I am not the one who calls Paul names everytime he writes a new article or review. I do have a problem with rabble-rousers from the Ocean/robertsjoe school of thought.

On topic, Microsoft came up with a great device, but ruined it with a lack of 3rd party apps. Windows Mobile has a good app store and phone capabilities. Zune has great software and great devices. Together, they would make a great product, but that is not to be. This is like having a separate OS for desktops and notebooks.

To be clear, it's not that the article factually false... it's just that they make up these overblown "myths" and then take great pleasure "discrediting" them.

No-one said Tegra leapfrogs other mobile processors, or that Zune HD delivers mobile HD or high-definition radio or that the apps would be insane (except maybe some delusional Zune fanboys.) And yet they expend great effort and take great pride in "dispelling" those "myths".

The truth is Zune HD's display IS significantly brighter and more vivid than other non-OLED PMPs. It IS significantly more responsive and faster than the last-gen iPod Touch (dunno about the new iPod Touch yet.) It DOES deliver 720p HD video when connected to a TV with the HD cradle. HD Radio DOES sound fantastic on the device; like listening to a 128kbps online radio stream. And there is great potential (as yet unrealized) for the apps to truly shine on the device.

Panache1023 I completely agree with you.  The bias in that article is mild.

I think the every article should be just by BIAS vs FACT.  That article is heavy on FACT.  Omission of facts is also a factor.

MS and Apple are both guilty of marketing BS.  That article goes a long way in removing the MS marketing BS, that people like iketchum love to lean on.

Example of marketing BS, would be Apple touting X amount of games for the iTouch/iPhone the other day.  Sure there are lots of games, but only about 30% of them are good.  The fact is even with 30% they still have a lot, way more than the Zune will have when it gets games, if they do.

My favorite Zune HD marketing BS is HD out.  Its a joke of a feature.  I mean where are you going to get HD content to put on your Zune HD?  From the Zune store?  So rent a HD movie from the Zune store and you have 24 hours to play it?  The only other way would be to rip a Blue Ray disk.  I have a geek friend that does this.  First you need a BD drive in a PC, which = cost.  Then it will produce a 25-30GIG file, then it would take what an hour to sync that kind of file to ONLY the Zune HD 32gig, maybe longer.  So now you can HD out your single movie.  MS marketing gives you this vision of running around with your Zune HD full HD movies allowing you to take your HD movies to a friends house and jack it into their TV and watch it.  Oh yeah you need the Zune Doc at what cost?  Needing the doc kind of distorts that vision of portability just a tad.

Burn through the BS and get the facts.

Shark47-

I read those sites, but I temper it with a reasonable expectation that they are going to be pro apple, they never claim otherwise. They never claim to be something they are not. Here? hrm. Apple has stated that he liked Apple and uses Apple products, now they are a success they are evil and and need of Anti-trust over-site which is laughable, he loves to trot out the worldwide market share numbers every quarter, abusive bully indeed.

Conversely  this time last year when various members of this site used the term "disgusting" multiple times and with great vitrol about Apple Camp at an Apple store...but when MS uses a kid to promote Win7 in a commercial Paul cheers about how it is unassailable because it would be mean spirited to talk bad about it or what not... But hey keep channeling the "good vibes" doing the same thing (in essence) that people derided Apple for. Pot meet Kettle.

I'm getting a "The page cannot be found" on both Zune reviews.

UnnDunn,

Did the author of that AppleInsider article have a point with the DDR1 RAM being an issue?

@UnnDunn Mike G and especially iketchum drown on about the Tegra and how powerful it is.  Others have as well.

Dude1313,

Using a child in a commercial to advertise for MS is most definitely not the same thing as taking a class trip to an Apple store.

They are so different as to not even be comparable.

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@Shark "On topic, Microsoft came up with a great device, but ruined it with a lack of 3rd party apps. Windows Mobile has a good app store and phone capabilities. Zune has great software and great devices. Together, they would make a great product, but that is not to be. This is like having a separate OS for desktops and notebooks."

You perfectly summed it up.  The Zune HD had a chance if they offered this version they are releasing today plus a phone version, plus apps that would fully utilize the phone version.  

Its not just the phone part, but the wireless internet access.  The iPhone combines, phone, internet access anywhere, and gps with apps that utilize all of that stuff at once and you get a device that is just so far ahead of anything MS offers.  When you show someone a iPhone that runs a simple app to give a list of restaurants, ATM's, movie theaters, using your current location via the GPS in the phone, and the internet to map out where you are and show you how to get there while driving in a car, and then allows you to dial say that restaurant you are now driving to....it blow the average user away.

I know that WinMO can do some of that, but its 1000X easier on the iPhone.  The Zune HD does not even register in that discussion.

"Did the author of that AppleInsider article have a point with the DDR1 RAM being an issue?"

Or that Windows CE cant use multicore?  

Or the FACT that the Zune screen has 18% less pixels.  

If your going to view most of the video content on these devices on its own screen would not want the better screen?

FACTS suck if they don't backup your side of the story.

@Paul: Cannot see the review!!! The page cannot be found!!

@panache1023:

Maybe the DDR1 RAM will be an issue, maybe not. It depends on how far Microsoft wants to take the gaming angle. In any case, it is an issue that will never affect end-users, and as such is almost entirely irrelevant to the discussion.

I mean, it's an interesting data-point, and if Microsoft decides to open up the Zune app ecosystem, it may prove somewhat limiting for game developers at some indeterminate future point, but seriously? No-one cares except Apple fanboys trying to hate on the Zune.

panache1023  said:

Dude1313,

Using a child in a commercial to advertise for MS is most definitely not the same thing as taking a class trip to an Apple store.

They are so different as to not even be comparable.

*****

Your opinion and one you are entitled to it, I see it as hypocrisy.

Tegra APX 2600 with 2 x ARM 11 Cores for the Zune HD, vice one (Apple) and a scheduler that is something of a miracle in itself. (Vice Apple's lack of multi-tasking). In every regard, the Zune HD crushes iTouch technically. Programmable shaders, OpenGL.. XNA games.

Unified apps store ships on the 6th of Oct, 2009 with WinMo 6.5 - one unified store. Example apps and games are shipping now and they look gorgeous on the very BRIGHT OLED screen - so much for dim light issues....

Unified Zune/Xbox 360 media marketplace, where one may BUY HD movies and TV - the Xbox is the key point here - being able to access many Zune libraries over the network - obviating the smallish size of Xbox's HDD.

Much more in a little while - for now... it's back to work.

@Paul: Great Zune HD et Zune 4 software review... Zune HD seems to be a great device ... better than IPod Touch... But Specificaly, the Zune 4 software continue to get the first place over ITune...

I will install the Zune 4 Software today!!! Great!

"being able to access many Zune libraries over the network - obviating the smallish size of Xbox's HDD."

A massive failure of MS and the Xbox.  I upgraded my PS3 drive in 5min, slapping in a 320gig notebook for $80.  I can stream to my PS3 from Windows or OS X, or just copy tons of data to it.

"Programmable shaders, OpenGL.. XNA games"

iTouch has OpenGL ES 2.0 support, and lots of games.  How many XNA games is the Zune HD shipping with today?

Pingback from  Pregnancy Dates Calculator

"I know that WinMO can do some of that"

Windows Mobile does all of that - with Bing (it's an application that has everything you mentioned in it).  Bing is revision 3 of the same Live Search application that has been on Windows Mobile devices since before the iPhone launched.

As far as the "HD" video out feature:  the idea is that you can rent or buy an HD video on the Zune video service on your Xbox, and transfer it to your device without waiting for a transcoded version.  If you're at somebody else's house, just hook up your Zune HD dock and you're good to go.  Why is that a bad thing?  It's certainly still better than Apple's offerings - you need an Apple TV in order to get HD stuff from the iTunes store on an HDTV.  The Zune HD on the other hand, becomes a portable HD storage device THAT ALSO allows you to play those same video on the screen.

Oh, and the reason it's "less pixels"?  Because it's a true 16:9 aspect ratio screen, similar to the PSP.  480x360 isn't, so you're wasting pixels for nothing.  If you outputted that same video via TV out, depending on how the video was created for the iPod, you'd either have pixels that were cropped, a picture that was squished, or when you play it back on the portable, you'd have letterboxing.

Also, the author of the article is clueless, because he doesn't have a clue about Windows Mobile.  IE6 for Windows Mobile is not the desktop version of IE6 on Windows Mobile.  Sorry, but that's just a sadistic wet dream of a Mackie that doesn't know any better.  Windows Mobile runs the software for Zunes, runs PDA's, barcode scanners, tablet and embedded computers, and yes, of course, phones.

Oh, and the infamous Quake 3 video?

Try doing that on an iPhone with anisotropic filtering and antialiasing - it ain't happenin'.  The Quake 3 build for Tegra was only recompiled using stock source code, not heavily optimized, which is the case for the iPhone build.  The textures just look plain awful on the iPhone.

UnnDunn,

How come every time you say "there is a point" you then say "it's irrelevant, just a mac fanboy"...weird that you can't have a freaking discussion without throwing out insults....

Waethorn,

16:9....they are wasting pixels on the iPhone because it's not a true 16:9 aspect ratio....is it still a waste of pixels for every other use of the device besides playing back video?  What about playing a game, or just navigating the devices menu?

Anyone else having problems installing Zune 4 software? I am trying to install the 64-bit version on top of the previous release (on Vista Ultimate). It finished the "Downloading Updates" stage (shows 100% complete) and now its just sitting there doing nothing. I cancelled it once and restarted and get the same result. I even cancelled it again, rebooted and tried it again only to get the same result. Ideas?

"iTouch has OpenGL ES 2.0 support, and lots of games"

It also has lots of tip calculators and fart apps.  Quantity != quality.

@panache1023:

The point is many of these arguments, from BOTH fanboy camps, are ultimately useless chest-beating. They are nice to know, but they aren't relevant.

No end-user really cares about Tegra, or OLED or DDR1 or whether WinMo does multitasking. What end-users care about is the user-experience, what features the device and software have and how well they are implemented.

To me, Zune HD as a PMP crushes iPod Touch. It's not even a question. But not merely because it has OLED or Tegra, but because it brings them all together into a compelling device that fits my lifestyle.

"Quantity != quality."

Hence the thousands of useless Windows apps cluttering garage sales across the country.

@rlcronin,

Open your existing 3.1 Zune software. Go to settings.

You will default on the software area. Go to general.

Click teh button to check for updates and apply the updates "inside" the Zune software itself. The application update process will take about two minutes.

@rr0de74@live.com, do you really want to get into this about gaming?

Do you understand what teh Zune HD's programmable pixel shader means? Do you recall what that meant to 3D gaming in general when the ATi 9700 Pro came out? Do you know how large and diverse the XNA games marketplace is and what to expect in this context?

In general, do you really want to have a conversation facing Microsoft gaming against Apple gaming? PC, Xbox 360, XNA a unified games and SW marketplace and now a multi-core Zune HD with programmable pixel shaders.

How about multi-player and "Live" gaming?

Do you really want to step into this one?

C'mon man. There's plenty to be critical of Microsoft about. There's plenty to praise Apple about. I just don't think that right now and in the context of where "gaming" is headed on this thing you want to go on the record in this way... up to you... I'll be here.

"is it still a waste of pixels for every other use of the device besides playing back video?  What about playing a game, or just navigating the devices menu?"

Do you know why they came up with the aspect ratio of 16:9?

It's because that's theoretically the most optimal aspect ratio for human visual perception because the average human field of view is a 16:9 aspect ratio from right to left without having to move your head.

It also happens to be perfect squares of the NTSC format of 4:3, but that's something that NTSC has claimed is just a coincidence.

Anyway, 16:9 is better for video, and it's even called "the golden aspect ratio", so why is it any better to use a pseudo widescreen mode like 480x320 (I had to look that up - I thought I put in a typo on my previous post and I did, because 480x360 is 4:3) when there is no content that is natively designed for it except on that particular platform?  That's just stupid.

If this is just "a software limit" as the article claims, where is Apple to enable that functionality on TV out?

Hmm???

Like I thought.

@rlcronin:

Same problem here - at the "downloading components - 100%" mark.

Removing the old version fixed the problem.

"To me, Zune HD as a PMP crushes iPod Touch. It's not even a question. But not merely because it has OLED or Tegra, but because it brings them all together into a compelling device that fits my lifestyle."

I call "fanboi" on that remark. As "Alanm999" might say: "Have you actually used a Zune HD, compared it side by side to an iPod Touch? No?"

"Hence the thousands of useless Windows apps cluttering garage sales across the country."

There's only 5x as many on the Apple app store.

"In general, do you really want to have a conversation facing Microsoft gaming against Apple gaming? PC, Xbox 360, XNA a unified games and SW marketplace and now a multi-core Zune HD with programmable pixel shaders."

Sure why not.  I see and understand all that you say there.  Then there is the factor of MS actually making that happen, getting developers on board.  I have been reading about Zune media/360/gaming integration since the Zune shipped.  Meanwhile the iPhone/iTouch game develop and list of games keep increasing daily.

The Zune will have to be a hit, before game developers start producing games for it.  

@rlcronin:

Oddly enough, after removing the old install of the Zune software, and installing what I thought was the new one, immediately after opening it, it said there was a software update available and it's now updating (again?).  Anyway, it's doing stuff....Looks like what I downloaded on the page was just version 3 maybe.  The installer/updater for version 4 is different.

Why does the installer/updater have a rabbit-in-a-box after it finishes?

DWAH!  Bunnies!!

Waethorn,

You spouted out a lot of information, none of it answered the question.  hmmmm?  That's what I thought.

The article mentioned that it was a software limitation, which has been proven as there have been people that hacked the iPhone (or iPod Touch, don't remember) and had it playing the HD video at HD resolutions.

The HD out on the Zune HD is a nice feature....personally I'd never use it.  But adding features because they are "nice" and not "useful" is meaningless.

Can someone show me where the Zune HD has 2 ARM11 cores?  I can't find anything on the Tegra chipset site at NVIDIA about it have two.  I can't find official specs for the Zune HD.

@lotsamystuff:

I own an iPod Touch. I don't own a Zune HD yet, but I played with one extensively at the recent Best Buy preview events, and I own a Zune 80GB. Based on what I saw at the Best Buy preview, combined with what I know from owning a Zune and using the Zune software and service, AND being able to compare that with the iPod I own, I can confidently state that Zune HD crushes iPod Touch as a PMP.

I wouldn't say it if I didn't believe it. Zune Pass + Zune HD is so much better than iTunes + iPod Touch for PMP usage.

Comments from Microsoft's spokespeople today note that their is no Zune  "App Store" since they didn't want to compete with WinMo's efforts in this area.

It would be nice if they could converge these two.

"You spouted out a lot of information, none of it answered the question."

Maybe with your Mackie blinders on, it doesn't make any sense.  Clearly it does to anybody else why they chose to use a true 16:9 screen.  Why is it 480x272?  To get 8 pixel MPEG macroblocks to sync properly with the screen.  Digital compression only scales properly on certain resolution screens (factors of 8 rule) unless you have specialized DSP hardware or software to do that with, which is both expensive and bandwidth intensive.

"The article mentioned that it was a software limitation, which has been proven as there have been people that hacked the iPhone (or iPod Touch, don't remember) and had it playing the HD video at HD resolutions."

On component cables?  Don't make me laugh.  Zune HD supports HDMI out (that's digital, as opposed to component, which is analogue), and it doesn't require video conversion to play HD videos stored on the device, out of the box.  You can play up all kinds of unsupported hacking options for the iPhone, and I'm sure I could agree that you could probably recode [the real] OS X to run on ARM if you wanted to, but Apple won't let you do that, so I'll consider that FUD and entire untrue unless Apple actually provides that functionality, TYVM.

"Can someone show me where the Zune HD has 2 ARM11 cores?  I can't find anything on the Tegra chipset site at NVIDIA about it have two.  I can't find official specs for the Zune HD."

Easily:

"Key to Tegra’s rich multimedia features are eight independent processors, each designed for a specific class of tasks - among them are an HD video processor, an audio processor, a graphics processor, and two ARM cores."

www.nvidia.com/.../io_1250488651953.html

"Comments from Microsoft's spokespeople today note that their is no Zune  "App Store" since they didn't want to compete with WinMo's efforts in this area.

It would be nice if they could converge these two."

My take on this is that with Windows Mobile 7 hardware specs including the requirement for Tegra-grade hardware, if any applications are allowed on the Zune HD, they'll be portable to Windows Mobile 7 as well.

Waethorn,

First off, thanks for the link.

Second of all, what do you mean, "Maybe with your Mackie blinders on, it doesn't make any sense".. what you said makes perfect sense....but you did not answer my original question, which was about why you call it a "waste of pixels", and then only go on to talk about video, while I mention other uses for the screen...so instead of throwing out insults and dodging the question by giving other interesting, but off topic points...why don't you just answer the damn question?

"but you did not answer my original question, which was about why you call it a "waste of pixels", and then only go on to talk about video, while I mention other uses for the screen"

The iPod touch and arguably the iPhone are designed primarily as entertainment devices and one would think that they would use a screen that is designed for one of the primary goals of having such a large screen.  That purpose was video.  Not games, which was tacked on after Apple gave in and opened the app store, and certainly not UI elements (for that matter, why not just make it square?).  No, the original intent was video.  And Apple screwed it up by making it some proprietary widescreen that no standard widescreen video content was designed for.  In fact, I have yet to see any kind of widescreen video that was designed for a 3:2 aspect screen.  I don't know of any video editing software that even supports such a ridiculous format, aside from making a custom format, and now Apple's primary reason for releasing a widescreen iPod is broken.  No widescreen-format video will play natively on this thing unless it's converted to fit it.  Apple screwed that up.  Big time.  Microsoft got it right.  If I want to play widescreen video without reformatting it or watching it in letterbox, I'd choose a device with a screen that's designed for it.  Watching film content is even worse, because even at 2.35:1 aspect, film will be letterboxed in 16:9 anyway.  On the iPod touch, it's even more wasted space, and for what?  Some UI element space that I won't see when I'm playing video?  UI stuff is easily moved around when designed within hardware restrictions, but if I bought a multimedia device for, you know, actually using it with multimedia, I'd expect it to be designed with multimedia in mind.  You'd think that Apple, of all of the companies heavily invested in multimedia and video, would have figured that out.

"so instead of throwing out insults and dodging the question by giving other interesting, but off topic points...why don't you just answer the damn question?"

I just did.  Several times over.  If you don't get it, that's your Mackie RDF distorting your sense of logic again.

""Key to Tegra’s rich multimedia features are eight independent processors, each designed for a specific class of tasks - among them are an HD video processor, an audio processor, a graphics processor, and two ARM cores."

And then I read the appliinsider article that says the Zune OS can use multiple cores?  Is that true?

@waethorn

"It also has lots of tip calculators and fart apps.  Quantity != quality."

I could not agree with you more.  Please remember this quote the next time some one says that Windows is better than OS X because there is more software available for it.

In fact, Microsoft loves to tout how Windows is superior to Linux and OS X due to the available software.

So by their reasoning, Zune is inferior to the iPod/iPhone due to the lack of software.

www.appleinsider.com/.../microsoft_unleashes_retail_talking_points_attacking_linux_macs.html

So which way is it?

Marketing..thats whats needed. I got a 2nd gen 8gb now my daughter wants one, Get it out in the UK soon, had to order mine from the US. Best player and software combination ive seen so far.

@rr0de74@live.com,

Cool :)

Ok. To start, context really does matter here and without question a couple of things happened that needed to, or were planned. Most interestingly, both Microsoft and Apple have a great role here....

First, Vista had to happen and did happen - e.g., the entire way in which programs are executed - in the context of least privileged user space - and all the great layers around that. I mention this, because in the MS/Windows world, nothing else mattered, or could be done until this was accomplished and the long bloody trail that has been Vista had to be cut. The company did that and it and its partners and customers had to make the march with them. That's over. Done. Complete.

Apple in the meantime, introduced, if not innovative ideas, certainly practical and great implementations of what was possible. They too blazed an important trail and educated a whole lot of people about what was possible and what the potential was.

Parallel to these processes was a three screens strategy that frankly needed both - parallel to a unified architecture for distributed/online transactions, interaction and services delivery.

So now the stage is set and the platforms are aligned. The tools are in place and the advanced hardware platforms have shipped. Now it is to see how well each will leverage what they have - as I see it, it is vast potential VS established market. The team with the better platform and more points of entry and exist will come out on top.

Now.. from where I sit, as a full service provider that uses and leverages nearly all MS technologies, I see a pretty complete set of tools on platforms that are extremely well integrated and easy to traverse - your cloud, my cloud, their cloud and our clouds.

Obviously, my bets have been placed for a long time - against which one thing in our world is certain (small and medium sized businesses and the people who own and work in them). We have to simultaneously, and safely address both spheres of influence at the same time - business/enterprise and personal/entertainment using the same systems connected to a wide range of federated services (that how you/my/our cloud thing, which we've been doing for 11 years now).

Of course what we know much less well is the Mac/Apple - does not mean we do not support it - we do and all at the same time.

What I am saying is that NOW, not JUST the potential exists, but the practical means exist to exploit that which has been dreamed of and worked on for so long. It's there. It's ready and it will be exploited, which you can bet we have been doing for a very long time - working and waiting for key pieces to fall in to place.

Now all this said... take a look at how active, diverse and well populated the XNA games marketplace over on Xbox 360 is. Understand that without modification, that will run on the Zune HD and opposite a nicely unified SoA, there will be very little waiting and finally... with online, multi-player being on the Zune HD, it's going to change a lot of minds and perhaps a few hearts.

Apple will of course counter with some awesome kit and a unification strategy of their own... until they, as MS had to, comes to gripes with their own reality and that one is where I began this wall of text... where Microsoft has completed the hard work and Apple has only begun... Mach is at a wall and a ceiling and unless Apple does the same painful things Microsoft had to do, they are in very deep trouble. You've heard me mention schedulers and resource managers a lot and in our multi/many core world, that matters so much more than any Apple supporter I know of seems to understand - and yes, I have many wonderful friends that love the Mac/Apple. We keep it civil and light hearted as it should be. Microsoft, with all of its platforms  - clients, servers, tools, devices, has absolutely nailed scheduling and thread/resource management. It is really quite amazing what they have accomplished and like it or no... Vista and the Allchin team made it all possible more than three years ago.

I welcome and appreciate your perspective. Cheers, Lloyd

Wow Waethorn,

This is the closest reason you actually gave to an answer of why you felt that having more pixels is wasted.

And you still only can talk about it from a point of view of video, with no other applications.

Then you go on to say that is "my Mackie RDF" distorting my sense of logic again....

meanwhile, video on the iPod Touch is something I rarely use....so I don't see these extra pixels being wasted.

For the *majority* of the time I use the iPod Touch, the entire screen is used.

So you STILL fail to answer the question why having more pixels than the Zune HD is "wasted"....in addition to not just saying, "They are not used during most video playback, but aren't 'wasted' other times", you have to be a total a**hole about it.

If you can't understand that *most* users of iPhone and iPod Touch devices are using *all* the pixels on the screen, therefore negating your "anymore than that is wasted" comment, then it is your typical "I-love-everything-MS-does-except-maybe-the-XBOX360" bias that is distoring your logic again.

@rr0de74@live.com,

Yes, The Zune HD uses two core - each with multiple (domains which support their own task schedules), (in this case two ARM11 Cores within an APX 2600).

Please see my remarks ref the import of schedulers and resource management features native to the Zune HD. It matters a great deal.

lketchum,

The point rr0de was making is that according to what we read, the OS that the Zune HD is using can't make use of the two separate cores.

Is this true?

anyone notice that 'zune.com' has the silly IIS under construction page?

www.engadget.com/.../zune-hd-unboxing-and-hands-on

<but some of that luster has worn off since popping this baby out of its extremely attractive packaging. Why is that, you ask? Well, Microsoft decided to hold on loading up any usable software until the new Zunes were out to market. >

LMFAO.

"really, you guys: the ZuneHD is almost, almost, almost ready. We just gotta wait and see if Apple does anything innovative (which we know they do) and copy it into our ZuneHD"

This is a pathetic company producing copied products to a bunch of nitwits barely intelligent enough to get a MSCE-certificate.

Why don't you guys move on?

@All: I just Hope that the album collection shown in Paul's review of the Zune 4 Software is not really Paul's album collection... With crap like Poison and Def lepards and Micheal Jackson five crap ... ahhahaha!!

In french we say : Clownesque ... I think you say "clownish" in english... lol

@panache1023,

It is not true - the Zune HD makes full use of both cores and the multiple, simultaneous domains available to each.

"This is a pathetic company producing copied products to a bunch of nitwits barely intelligent enough to get a MSCE-certificate.

Why don't you guys move on?"

Wow, you actually took the time to create an account on this site to post that? Wow!!

Shark47,

Maybe "logjamming" is another RobertsJoe alias?

LOL

@All: Is it true that the Zune HD will not be released in Canada??

"And then I read the appliinsider article that says the Zune OS can use multiple cores?  Is that true?"

Anything taken from the Apple Insider site can only be taken with a grain of salt, since the author claims to know everything about the Zune software, when he actually has not seen Windows Mobile first hand, nor does he have a clue about Windows CE and how it relates to Windows Mobile.  Nor does he know about the Tegra.  In fact, this line is complete FUD and wreaks of an Apple fanbois blog writer:

"The CPU in the Tegra is a single ARM11 core. Even if the Tegra did supply multiple CPU cores, the Windows CE kernel used by the Zune HD doesn't support multi-core SMP so it couldn't make any use of them."

So he's:

a)  unsure of himself

b)  doesn't know

c)  hasn't seen Windows Mobile 6.5, since there are no devices shipping with it yet (you can't run the OEM build software on a Mac either!  ;)  )

Let alone the Quake demo on Tegra was running 18 months ago when the source code was released, also using anisotropic filtering and antialiasing, whereas the iPhone app is heavily optimized, and doesn't do any major texture filtering, while the textures look like crap in comparison.

"In fact, Microsoft loves to tout how Windows is superior to Linux and OS X due to the available software."

The difference is Windows users don't get a kick out of tip calculators and fart apps.  If that's what panache uses his iPod touch for, then whatever.  So long as he's using those extra 48 rows of pixels.

"If you can't understand that *most* users of iPhone and iPod Touch devices are using *all* the pixels on the screen, therefore negating your "anymore than that is wasted" comment"

Just not for the primary reason why Apple released it with a large, wide screen.

@logjam:

Take a stool softener and get that baseball bat out of your petootie.

@iketchum I get all of the pieces and I think that Microsoft definitely caters to the developer and does have some great development tools.

All that said they are not the only game around.  Java development thrives today, big time.  So does OS X development.  The PS3 has sold more consoles in its first two years when compared to the same time frame with the 360 and all major 3rd party games are on the PS3 as well.  The Wii and the DS are doing just fine.

The iTouch/iPhone development is going like gang busters and does not seem like its going to slow down anytime soon.  Developers are tripping over each other to create apps.  The App store is great for developers, especially the small time developers that dont have the resources to setup and infrastructure to sell and promote their apps.

My point is that game development on other platforms is happening and doing very well, and none of it uses MS development tools.  I just dont see the handicap.  Apple will advance their programing tools, probably already has in light of the massive development that is going on.  They probably will come out with a tablet which will only create more opportunity for development.

I also dont doubt apps will come to the Zune platform.  The really big question that no one can answer is "if you build it WILL they come".  Developers target successful platforms.  Right now if I were a developer and my resources were limited I would create apps for the iphone over the zune purely because there are 60million itouch/iphone devices that could run them.  Unless Zune sales really pick up, all the great development tools and pieces MS has FINALLY put in place is not going to do anything for you.

Wow. I've never seen the Mac Zealots so frightened by a product.

Amusing.

"Java development thrives today, big time."

Can I buy pot from you?

@Yoshipod: "In fact, Microsoft loves to tout how Windows is superior to Linux and OS X due to the available software."

Perhaps Microsoft has more quality software, thereby making your analogy fall short.

"In fact, Microsoft loves to tout how Windows is superior to Linux and OS X due to the available software."

'The difference is Windows users don't get a kick out of tip calculators and fart apps. '

Sorry but you can't have it both ways.   You can't say that the lack of software for the Zune is not a major factor in determining how good the product is then use the exact same counter argument for OS X. There is a word for people like that.

Its called "Hypocrite."

"Can I buy pot from you?"

I heard in Canada you can get it your local drug store.

@ mikegalos

Like I said in another blog post: you're the reason why DSM-IV was created.

And at least when we open our new hardware, it's got software on it that works. Heck, it's got software on it! No such luck with the ZuneHD though...the Wow doesn't start now?

It's probably an 'in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king'-thing with you Microsoft guys.

@Waethorn

While Java desktop development is fairly stagnant - minus LOB applications and development tools targetting Java, Enterprise Java development is going very strong.

"Perhaps Microsoft has more quality software, thereby making your analogy fall short."

No.  Microsoft uses the fact that Windows runs more software as a key selling point when comparing it to Linux and OS X in their marketing material.  

"PCs run more of the software programs your customers use most and come in a wide variety of colors and configurations" - Microsoft Expert Zone

No where does this say anything about quality. In fact, I can't recall anyone ever arguing that the software available for Windows is of high quality in general. In fact, normally you hear the opposite. "There are 10 programs to do XXXX but 8 of them are terrible."

logjam

Thank you for continuing to demonstrate my point.

Paul says itunes is 'bloated' and zune software is elegant.  The zune 4.0 64bit exe is 133MB and itunes9 is 90MB.  hmm.

Waethorn,

Actually, I primarily use the iPod Touch for music, then games.

When I look at the screen, most of the time, those "extra 48 rows of pixels" are being used....

It's really weird that you are knocking MORE pixels...so when watching a movie, it has to letter box the screen a bit...that will happen on the Zune too depending on the aspect ratio of the movie...it happens on my 60" 1080P TV as well...

But when a show comes in that takes the full screen, I would hardly call those pixels "wasted"...

I guess if MS made the screen with those "extra 48 rows of pixels" and Apple didn't, you'd use it as a way to attack the Apple product.

@yoshipod Said : "There are 10 programs to do XXXX but 8 of them are terrible."

Yes its true but on OSX you have none!! so...

"While the Zune HD appears to compete nicely with the iPod touch, it falls short in a few areas. The Zune HD screen, while gorgeous, is a bit smaller than that of the touch, and of course this device lacks the amazing App Store compatibility that drives iPod touch sales. (Microsoft will ship a handful of Zune HD apps, and for free, but this is a weak and late response to the Apple app juggernaut.)"

Well, despite Paul's repeated assertions that the Zune software is so much superior to iTunes, it won't matter a bit until there is a Zune app store to compete with Apple's. Strange that the software giant is struggling so hard with that...

Why doesn't has the zune any Accessibility features like the iPod touch and the iPhone do? Things like Screen Reader with VoiceOver, Practice Gestures, The Rotor, Voice Control?

I couldn't find anything in the zune specs.

It seems that Microsoft doesn't give a sh*t about disabled people. Thanks, but no thanks Microsoft.

@yoshipod Said : "There are 10 programs to do XXXX but 8 of them are terrible."

'Yes its true but on OSX you have none!! so...'

So I can say the same thing about Zune when compared to the iPod.  

I'm not saying that those applications exist and / or they are better.

I am saying that when marketing Windows, Microsoft likes to boast about the vast number of applications available for that product. Yet for some reason, when it comes to the Zune, all of a sudden that is not important.

Yet, we constantly hear about the Zune Ecosystem, that supports ZERO third party applications. Yet the response from so many people here is that the 50,000+ ipod apps are all "tip calculators and ifart".

Does Zune 4 support AIFF?

"Paul says itunes is 'bloated' and zune software is elegant.  The zune 4.0 64bit exe is 133MB and itunes9 is 90MB.  hmm."

To be fair, it looks like the x64 installer from the website is actually the Zune 3.1 one, not the Zune 4.0 one. At least according to the EULA in it, and the fact that it asks you to upgrade if you hit "settings."

That said, firsts impressions: it is definitely much snappier than the 3.x version. Transitions back and forth are smooth, and it does not spike the CPU when scrolling up or down in a large music library; scrolling is also smooth when a lot of CPU is being consumed by other programs. I like the idea of the Quickplay screen and wish there was more of the light on dark aesthetic in the rest of the Zune software, rather than just the (must improved) Now Playing screen and the QuickPlay screen.

That said, anyone who has not-only-Latin-charset music in the library will probably notice the new Unicode "support." The font for non-Latin characters is now different from the Latin character font - it worked just fine in the same font in 3.1. As well, the Quickplay screen does not support Unicode - so I am going to guess the device will not as well. Guess I get to wait on getting a ZuneHD or even updating my Zune120, since that works just fine with all my Russian music.

On Win7 they updated the software to make use of Jumplists, so quickplay items are available from the jumplist, as well as the "Suffle All Music" task. Additionally, the preview thumbnail now sports Back, Play/Pause, and Forward controls like WMP, which is definitely a cool feature - no more going into the software just to pause or skip the current song. Desire volume controls as well, though. A toggle for Favorite also exists - I am curious, do people actually use that?

"Paul says itunes is 'bloated' and zune software is elegant.  The zune 4.0 64bit exe is 133MB and itunes9 is 90MB.  hmm."

I know Subzero brought up this point a few days back. If my computer had a 2GB hard drive, I would be concerned. It doesn't, though, so I really don't care about applications taking up 90 or 130MB of space. iTunes --even the latest version of it -- feels sluggish on my Windows 7 PC. That's a pity, considering that probably 80% of its users are on PCs. Zune, on the other hand is pretty responsive and feels great. T

"The difference is Windows users don't get a kick out of tip calculators and fart apps."

Interesting, since the vast majority of iPhone/iPod Touch users are Windows users. Who do you suppose is buying all those tip calculators and fart apps? Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that they're not Windows users?

Do you THINK before you type drivel like that?

lotsa,

That's just Waethorn finding the need to classify people.  Once someone uses ANY Apple product, they cease to be "Windows users", and become "Apple fanatics".

There is no way possible on Earth that someone can use an Apple product, and use Windows or MS products, and like both of them.

However, as soon as he needs to, he'll tout that the iPod wouldn't be nearly as successful if iTunes didn't run on Windows....which then kind of makes his comment of "Windows users don't get a kick out of tip calculators and far apps" pretty idiotic.

When you compare marketshare, is it worldwide ipod v zune or US only ?

www.youtube.com/watch

this guy got one...he seems impressed

"You can't say that the lack of software for the Zune is not a major factor in determining how good the product is then use the exact same counter argument for OS X."

Well let's take a look at that statement for a moment:

I talked about tip calculators and fart apps.  I was referencing the iPhone.  Now if you want to say that applies to OS X, well then that's just sad.  I know that Microsoft doesn't have as high a percentage of stupid applications on the Zune as the iPhone does, and Microsoft has already stated that they aren't going to open up the Zune to third parties willy nilly, so there is obviously going to be a lot of garbage apps from the start.

"I heard in Canada you can get it your local drug store."

Only with a prescription.

Ahh, can't install on XP 64. That's a disappointment. The software looks absolutely amazing.

www.i4u.com/article26360.html

Have updated the Zune software and it runs nicely, just wish I could get hold of a Zune HD but unless Microsoft decides it wants to sell them in Asia-Pacific region I am in trouble.

"That's just Waethorn finding the need to classify people.  Once someone uses ANY Apple product, they cease to be "Windows users", and become "Apple fanatics"."

Actually, it was you that subjugated yourself to a self-inflicted beating by classifying yourself in the category of "Apple's most fanatical" by taking offense to the term "lemming".

"However, as soon as he needs to, he'll tout that the iPod wouldn't be nearly as successful if iTunes didn't run on Windows....which then kind of makes his comment of "Windows users don't get a kick out of tip calculators and fart apps" pretty idiotic."

iTunes is the biggest Windows fart app.

"Ahh, can't install on XP 64. That's a disappointment. The software looks absolutely amazing."

Zune software = consumer software

XP 64 != consumer software.

@mikegalos: "Wow. I've never seen the Mac Zealots so frightened by a product."

You're dreaming. The fact is that the product is a joke. So we all laugh at it. There is nothing frightening about it. The Zune HD is a joke.

Waethorn,

I get what you mean but I still think it could of been supported. Oh well. I'll upgrade to Windows 7 x64 as soon as it is available.

@Waethorn - "Microsoft has already stated that they aren't going to open up the Zune to third parties willy nilly"

Aren't you one of the ones saying that Apple shouldn't be "blocking" applications from being released for the iPod/iPhone?

--tayme

@robertsjoe - "The Zune HD is a joke."

Really? You know this because you have used both the Zune HD and iPOod? My guess is that you have used neither! Give up your blind lust for Apple....its pure nonsense!

--tayme

@robertsjoe - "The Zune HD is a joke."

Really??? You know this how? I would guess that you have used neither. You are nothing but a simple minded brand loyalis...just like mikegalos and Waethorn!

--tayme

Oops...sorry for the double post...stupid hotel network!

--tayme

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