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Paul says itunes is 'bloated' and zune software is elegant.  The zune 4.0 64bit exe is 133MB and itunes9 is 90MB.  hmm.

@gfryesc1: the elegance is not a matter of size.... What this guys is talking about Paul???

Developping Zune HD software would be cool but apparently we cannot get the  Zune HD here in Canada ... So ...

Well, the C:\Program Files\Zune directory is 65 meg (on my 64-bit Dell). There are no doubt pieces scattered everywhere, as is the Windows way, adding to that. the .exe one downloads is an installer.

I like Zune 4.0 so far (used only with my old Zune). I have switched the startup screen to Collection from QuickPlay (Settings-->General). I too don't know why QuickPlay has a black background.

 --John (who hates black background windows)

Erico, I think the install size is an accurate symptom of 'bloatedness'.  I think Paul is imagining any speed problems he has with itunes [probably stemming from his bias]...  it's something he often castigates on others for lamenting on their perception of performance.

@gfryesc1

"Paul says itunes is 'bloated' and zune software is elegant.  The zune 4.0 64bit exe is 133MB and itunes9 is 90MB.  hmm."

I think its bloatedness refers to it being a resource hog while running, not its install size.

"I think Paul is imagining any speed problems he has with itunes [probably stemming from his bias]"

Paul is hardly alone regarding his speed problems with itunes on windows....the acknowledgment of itunes generally being terrible on windows can be found all over the internet.

@gfryesc1 - the end result on your disk is where you can evaluate bloat.  It doesn't really matter whether the installed is 90MB or 200MB, the one that leaves a smaller footprint is likely less bloated.

Having said that, the more features, the bigger size, so whether an application is bloated is really subjective.  A small 10MB application may well be bloated by 50% while a 2GB application may have only 1% bloat.

Personally I don't care if an application takes up additional disk space if it actually gives me a good end results.  The Zune software gives *me* a better result than iTunes.  I don't have a Zune or iPod, but only use the software for music during work and podcasts, so am hardware independent.

@gfryesc1 said: "Erico, I think the install size is an accurate symptom of 'bloatedness'."

WHAT??

ABSOLUTLY NOT!!!

The size of a installed software forlder is ABSOLUTLY NOT an accurate symptome of bloatedness of the GUI... !!!!!$#$F@#!@#

actually, the zune software's installer is only ~56MB.

the zune firmware installer is ~132MB.

at least, if I've interpreted these filenames from the manual installer correctly.

@truffoo0 : You are right!! I Aprouve!

From the massive 400MB+ manual installer, which contains both x64 and x86 versions, as well as prerequisites:

piro.pirocast.net/.../zuneinstallercontents.png

"It's unclear how you could ever get those apps on the device, however."

Wow simply wow.  The Zune has had HORRIBLE support from Microsoft since day one.  Zero advertising almost.  When it launched the software was the worst software I had ever seen on a Windows platform.  It did not support Windows 64bit, it did not have smart playlists, no pod cast support and was super slow/buggy.

Things have gotten better.  The software at version 3 is very good.  Many features were added.

All that said from a 10,000 foot view its crazy how MS releases this stuff.

Looking down I see on Sept 15th, only 1 Zune model now available.  It has NO apps on launch day.  Its only sold in the US and now this.....

"It's unclear how you could ever get those apps on the device, however."

Call me crazy buts its like the want it to fail???  Why they could not wait until they had something like 10 apps, some that really showed off its potential, available in several places at once, and an App store waiting, begging developers to use their free XNA tools to easily get those apps on the store and then onto devices.

Instead bits and pieces of the Zune HD will sputter out over the next 6 months and fail because of this horrible launch.  Who the efff is in charge of this at MS?  If I can see this lame launch then someone that does this stuff for a living should be all over it.

guess I have one more reason to dabble into XNA again......  

@rrOde74

Never underestimate the ability of the army of .Net developers to fill the zune with millions of tip calculators.  Anyone know the ratio of .Net to apple developers is?  Not saying people don't do both or learn the other, but from day one I bet the ratio is drastically in favor of the zune when it comes to development platform

I had Ipod Nano and I stopped using it and I gave it away to my cosuin because of Itunes, and I bought Zune 30 and I love it only for the software. It is way easier to use.

I think bloatness could also mean how easy you can use the software and it is not only the size, now I have to use Itunes because of my Iphone but I try hard not to use Itunes with my Iphone. I always get the aps from the phone itself. the only reason I use Itunes is to update the phone.

To a certain extent, I have to agree, rr0de74. It's depressing that Microsoft seems so uncaring when it comes to the Zune. They release an EXCELLENT device and software with so much potential, and then they fail to tap into that potential at all right from the start. The "coming soon" attitude just does NOT capture peoples' hearts. Because they launched with so many uncertainties and a lack of enthusiasm, it seems like Microsoft is dooming it to mediocrity without even giving it a chance to shine like it should.

meason: Indeed. I shall have to see how the raycasting engine i made in XNA performs on the HD. Could be some fun possibilities there.

meason: i would love for that to be the case. Right now, there's just no way for that multitude of developers to get their apps ON the zune. The apps section in the marketplace will not be taking third-party apps for some time, it seems.

My only problem with the Zune software is that I wish it offered a bit more granular control over the way that ID tags are created and how it sorts your MP3s into folders, etc. So I'm stuck using iTunes to rip CDs and organize my music library, but using the Zune software to sync my Zune and listen to music.

I do think this release, just like the xbox 360, is being rushed. Rushed for the holiday season.

Launch NOW, even if the ecosystem is not ready.  It must be out for Christmas.

as a result:

Xbox = very faulty hardware

Zune = Only hardware ready (unless there arellast minute game changes we don't know about)

@ meason  said: "Never underestimate the ability of the army of .Net developers to fill the zune with millions of tip calculators.  Anyone know the ratio of .Net to apple developers is?  Not saying people don't do both or learn the other, but from day one I bet the ratio is drastically in favor of the zune when it comes to development platform"

Ho!! This is Right!!

@bradwestness said: "My only problem with the Zune software is that I wish it offered a bit more granular control over the way that ID tags are created and how it sorts your MP3s into folders, etc. So I'm stuck using iTunes to rip CDs and organize my music library, but using the Zune software to sync my Zune and listen to music."

D'oh! Ordganize music ... Zune organize music by album, Artiste etc... What do you want more?? A Software that let you organize your music by yourself to allow you order song in order of the artist slip colors... Clownesque... D'oh!!

Despite the general perception of iTunes being slow and bloated on Windows (which I have agreed to in the past), I think that iTunes is getting better as time goes on. Ever since I upgraded to version 8, it felt more responsive and snappy on my computer.

I've downloaded Zune 4.0 Software on my computer, and though it's nice, there's really nothing there that persuades me to replace WMP or iTunes as my main media player. I'm happy with what I've got :)

@Grannyville: So Keep what you got man!! This is exactly the reason why more than one product exists!! This is always a matter of personal tast!!

For myself, I'd always found WMP to be too slow, I man not too slow but not really responsive, the treading is bad in WMP...

For itune: I found it performant but it look like Excel...

So I use Zune soft!! Great Soft :)

@EricoF3

Did you find WMP12 slow too? I found WMP12 in the Windows 7 RC very quick and responsive for me : ) (Unfortunetly, it's dogged with bugs :(   )

Translation From PR-Speak to English of Zune Marketing Manager Brian Seitz’s Response to the Question of Whether the Zune Will ‘Open Up for Third-Party App Developers’

He said:

>>It’s hard to say right now. If you look around the company at other  places where things like this are important, Windows Mobile rises to   the top. They have devices which are always connected, which make  applications like maps really cool and important.  

On a sometimes-connected device, what people are using them for are games. So what we didn’t want to do was build two parallel app store experiences that didn’t work together.

Right now our product roadmaps didn’t line up perfectly for us to  snap to what they’re doing or vice versa. That being said, we know  people want things like this on their devices so we’re going to build them ourselves, they’re going to be super high-quality, and  they’re going to be free.

Down the road if there’s a way we can work with Windows Mobile or  another group inside the company that’s building an app store and  take advantage of that, that’s something we’ll look into.<<

What it means:

>>No, because our mobile strategy is a convoluted mess.<<

http://tinyurl.com/ob7hjy

Grannyville  said: "Did you find WMP12 slow too? I found WMP12 in the Windows 7 RC very quick and responsive for me : ) (Unfortunetly, it's dogged with bugs :(   )"

I must admit that the last WMP version I try was the version that are black skin ... I don't rember the version I think is WMP10... I used it an changed to iTune because it was too unresponsive... And when I bought a Zune to my wife for its birthday I install the Zune soft 3 and I found it so smooth that I adopt it!!

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It sounds as if the Zune HD needs a Homebrew community like the Palm Pre has....and Palm actually approves of it!

--tayme

Somebody already claiming to have put the tools to use:

www.youtube.com/watch

The lame decision to keep the phone app store and the zune one separate is disastrous and baffling but oh so MS. However, what in god's name is the supposedly developer crazy MS thinking in keeping everyday devs out of the game? I like the zune a lot but really,  terrible job. on the dev side.

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@Ocean,

Man... that is just sad. They are blunting this launch in favore of one multi-disciplined thing: a unified apps store for mobile devices.

What is going to happen is that the Zune Software - the marketplace for mobile device apps and media on connected devices - like Zune and xbox, is the direction. The Zune HD is a reference design - much like home networking designs Microsoft fielded and then retired once the stack in the client was taught to the industry. The future is in the Zune brand as services and software platform for connected devices and the Zune HD hardware matters very little to the company in that context.

In no small way, advocates and partners like me, are helping fund this development. It's pretty turdy of them in many contexts and as some will point out, in the short term, it's just dumb - not because the long term strategy won't work, but because of the bad taste its going to leave in a lot of partners' mouths.

And all of this...? it's all taking place, because Microsoft does not really believe in partners and others in the channel - as services overtakes software, there is much less need for them.

They better make good on their "What's ours is yours" comments, or they're going to drive off millions of supporters.

I still don't understand why they don't have a Zune phone.

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@shark I totally agree on the phone deal.  Even more perplexing is the massive app development effort for Windows Mobile 6.5.  The whole thing is a total mess.

@iketchum all that talk about all of the pieces being in place now, what is the path???  Its the usual Microsoft product confusion at work.

Arm strikes back one day later?

http://arm.com/news/25922.html

www.appleinsider.com/.../microsoft_sells_restrictive_new_wimo_marketplace_via_iphone_ads.html

"Even so, the company's new store plans to be even more restrictive than Apple's App Store, charging developers $99 per app submitted while killing off many existing WiMo titles and banning Java."

Oh Mike G how can that be?  More restrictive?

@rr0de74@live.com

They absolutley are (in place) - just because (for now) not just anyone can dev for the platfrom, does not mean that a good number of others are not.

What it does mean is that before the unified store does make its way to "anyone that wants the SDK and API's" that there is a process in place.

Just watch for the results.

That said....

When the mobile platforms do entirely aline, you'll see broad access (I  do not know when that is, and while a guess would be a good one, I'm not going to say).

For now, the focus is on entertainment - music, media and games (great games) with a small selection of productivity apps - Facebook, Twitter, etc...

Like you, I wish it was wide open. I think the path now taken is the wrong one. Regardless, that is not for us to decide. For now, there is just too much work to do to worry about it.

There's another factor, too - driving... Zune is an application and a brand. The confusion we are seeing is all around how to reconcile that and I don't pretent to know how to. I just know that there needs to be a decision and it can't be both - not well done, at least.

And yes, you are most right, it is confusing and especially to those of us that develop across the platforms. Good tools, better planning and a lot of coffee - that's all I can say.

WinMo 7 or Zune, I dont care what they call it, they should have just waited until it was one.  Waited until they had really good apps you could download day 1, not promises.  Then advertise the hell out of it.  I have seen way, way to many iPhone ads, to the point that I hear "there is an app for that" in my sleep.

Wake up MS if we down here can see the huge mistakes being made why cant you.

Well let's get this straight:

Microsoft only just announces the availability of a touchscreen portable media player, based on their Zune media entertainment service brand, and it does HD video out with HDMI, and all that people can do is complain about lack of applications and the fact that the Windows Mobile device market has an application store coming and the Zune doesn't allow for applications built outside of the entertainment development options available via XNA Game Studio?

Are you kidding me?

If I want a portable application platform, I'll by a pocket computer, ie. a Pocket PC PDA, or more accurately in the present, a Windows Mobile equipped smartphone.  That's what Windows Mobile was designed for.

A Zune is an entertainment device.  Leave it at that.  Games are part of the entertainment platform, so I completely understand them not allowing full developer support for applications that aren't necessary on a PMP.  After all, the Zune HD is just going to be an interim piece of hardware before Project "Pink" (aka Zune services and software) launches on Windows Phones running WM 7.  At that point, developers will [already] have full access to WM 7 developer resources.

"I have seen way, way to many iPhone ads, to the point that I hear "there is an app for that" in my sleep."

You should get some help for those nightmares.

People who equate the size of a download or setup package really have no clue about software distribution, nor are qualified to call anything "bloatware".

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