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I'm pretty sure you misunderstand the meaning of "jump the shark"

It's a term for when people are basically on their way out, and are desperately grasping at straws to try and stay in the game.

i think he means 'jumps the gun'. unless he seriously thinks this is a desparate straw-grab from a dying entity. but that's not the impression i get.

Bravo Paul!

This is the kind of post I continue to come here to see!  You stated your opinion and backed it up with facts without being rude!

You need to make one correction though...this sentence doesn't make sense.

"Because the iPod touch includes a standard FM radio tuner too. Unlike the iPod touch. And like every other Zune before it"

I don't understand what you are trying to say, but it definitely looks like there is some kind of typo there.

Keep making posts like this one please!

"HD radio" does NOT stand for high-definition. It stands for "hybrid digital". Check it out at en.wikipedia.org/.../HD_Radio

I dunno, Paul, whether you agree with them or not, it appears that AppleInsider at least put a bit of thought and research into their critique of the Zune - which is more than I can say for your article.

As for the display quality, I notice that even though my iPod Touch screen is not blindingly bright, I can see it fine even in bright sunlight. Apparently this is because the LCD display is "transflective", meaning that in addition to relying on backlighting it also makes use of ambient light reflecting from the display.

OLED displays, on the other hand, rely 100% on OLED generated light - no use is made of ambient light. This raises the question of whether Zune's OLED looks as good as iPod's LCD display in bright sunlight.

This is a response?  Please, Paul.

Appleinsider's main criticism of the OLED screen was it's poor performance in sunlight and power consumption.  You don't even address these things.  Go read the Ars Technica review.  They acknowledge the terrible performance in sunlight.

On Tegra, again, you don't engage the core point by Appleinsider - the Tegra is running  old generation CPU hardware - " Tegra uses a conventional ARM11 family CPU core (ARMv6), the same generation CPU core used by the original iPhone, the Zune, Nokia N95, and the HTC Hero. The Tegra's CPU/GPU package also uses DDR1 memory, introducing significant real world RAM bandwidth limits no matter how powerful the embedded GPU core is rated to be in theoretical terms."  On a Quake benchmark done by Nvidia, the Zune Tegra piece was slower - " NVIDIA's own demonstrations of Tegra's ARM11/integrated graphics show it achieving 35 fps in Quake III. The same software running on Pandora's Coretex-A8 with SGX GPU core achieves 40-60 fps. "

As to the HD moniker - Appleinsider's main point is that it's basically deceptive.  Many ordinary people might think the thing is running HD video on the device.  That's a valid point, although most ordinary people probably won't buy a zune HD anyways, they go with the market leading product (iPod) assuming the market knows more than they do.

As for apps, sure nobody in their right mind would claim the Zune compares to the iPod touch, but the lack of apps needs to be mentioned in any comparison.  Frankly, unless you hate apple or are a music subscription fan, I can't think of any reason to get a zune HD given the utter lack of apps for the zune.

It's a shame that AllThingsD is featuring this same author on their front page.

For real - how much of an impact does anyone really think the Zune is going to have? I personally cannot see it gaining any ground.

Practically everyone has an iPod which means they are already somewhat experienced with the "dreaded" iTunes. They've already purchased their media via iTunes as well as ripped all of their CDs to use in their iPod.

Microsoft really needs to have something that is WAY better - apps, music store, etc. for someone to even take notice.

Let's see where they are in 6 months with this. I bet not much further than where they currently are. I hope I'm wrong as competition is something we NEED in this environment but I just don't see this product doing anything to Apple's marketshare.

Regardless of the Windows FAN BOYs or Apple FAN Boys opinions.

This is why I always complaint about Apple *Fans* ...

They always do this kind of *** ...

Nice article Paul ... I Aprouve all what you say about AppleInsider Blog ...

When Apple *Fans* feel the need to destroy somthing before it it the market this is because Apple *Fans* are really scared ... So The Zune HD is a killer device and it is much more interesting than the iTouch...

GFY Apple

@gorath: Paul is obviously disturbed by the AppleInsider post, and because of this he has made a couple of mistakes in the article.  I think instead of going over the article with a fine tooth comb to find small mistakes, you should try to understand the context of what's being said.

The Zune HD is a fantastic device and credit should be given where it is due... whether it is Microsoft, Apple or whatever.  

And I just don't get how people can compare iPod Touch and Zune HD by the number of apps they are currently running.  Zune HD was released yesterday and the iPod Touch has been around for quite a while.  No device has millions of apps to start off with; it takes time for developers to realize the potential of the device and develop apps.

So to all you Apple fanboys:  I know you're all very emotionally charged to blast the Zune HD, but give it some time and let's actually see how it does, then pass judgements.  If the others were like you, they'd all have been laughing at you while you celebrated the shiny, new, totally out-of-this-world copy/paste functionality of the iPod/iPhone not too long ago.

@Paul:

You should do a website rendering comparison between IE6 on the desktop on IE6 Mobile.  They are not the same, as Microsoft has even stated, but nobody seems to understand that.

""HD radio" does NOT stand for high-definition. It stands for "hybrid digital"."

In this case, it doesn't really matter.  Everyday consumers understand that "HD" means better quality, which is what the Zune provides, while still providing backwards compatibility.  The iPhone/iPod touch doesn't do that.

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Guess who wins the award for jumping the shark?  You, Thurrott, for your chronic overuse of the phrase 'jumps the shark'.

Get some new material, blowhard.

Okay, let's go through it:

1. Myth 1 about the display. We need some time for side-by-side comparisons, including battery life and how these things work with movies. Can't tell yet, although the photos make the Zune look impressive. We have to see about this, however,

"Sony and Microsoft try to compensate by giving their OLED devices a dark, mostly black user interface. Unless you will exclusively be using your Zune HD to watch gothic movies in the dark, the screen will be gobbling up more power than an LCD. This is particularly the case if you want to browse the web, which involves a lot of white space. Showing a white background, OLED consumes as much as 300% of the power of an LCD. Any colors that rely upon those those fragile blue pixels are particularly power inefficient. "

And I wonder about this, "If you're wondering why Apple, which sells tens of millions of mobile devices per year and has a component appetite that literally sways RAM markets, didn't beat Microsoft, a company that barely sold a couple million Zunes in two years, to the OLED trough, it's not because Microsoft is on the cutting edge, but because Microsoft is desperately looking for a marketable feature, whether or not that feature makes any sense for consumers."

It's possible that Microsoft is making a bug into a feature. Since Zune sales are so small :), they may be able to put OLED on the Zune before Apple can get the parts in sufficient quantity for the iPod. Ironic, if true.

2. Myth 2. The telling point is, "Even if the Tegra did supply multiple CPU cores, the Windows CE kernel used by the Zune HD doesn't support multi-core SMP so it couldn't make any use of them."

But, we need benchmarks, something like Quake on both devices?

3. Myth 3. Apple Insider is basically right on this one. The Zune ---outputs----HD but doesn't show HD. The name is misleading. Furthermore, it will only hold 2-3 HD movies, so carrying HD movies around on this thing doesn't make much sense to me, and it only holds those 2-3 if you use if for nothing else.

4. Myth 4, HD radio. A.I. is right on this one. "HD" radio isn't "high definition". Note that Paul carefully skirts this, as Microsoft does, "Not a myth. I was just using this feature a few minutes ago. It does indeed deliver HD radio" He does NOT say "high definition" radio, because that would be false. It does deliver "HD" radio, but it doesn't mean what Microsoft wants everyone to assume it means. Go look on wikipedia for what HD radio is and isn't.

I think HD radio is essentially irrelevant, but just my opinion. I also think the FM radio in the Nano is irrelevant. Pandora radio is what matters these days.

5. Myth 5. This is an unknown. "Zune HD games and software will wow you". Maybe. And, "The Dow Jones will go to 30,000". That's not false either, but what about NOW? The Zune does not "wow" with 9----count 'em, 9-----apps. Perhaps it will wow us later, but certainly not now.

Even with Paul's misapplication of the phrase, Apple Insider has not "jumped the shark". They posted a critical commentary on the Zune HD, which is exactly what Paul claims he does when he says that the current, best-selling, industry dominating, Microsoft clobbering iPods are "the most addled yet", "sort of a mess", etc.

So far, based on limited information, the screen looks pretty, but the device is misnamed. It stores and outputs HD, but can barely hold any HD content and the HD radio isn't HD in the sense that Microsoft clearly wants people to think that it is.

It's certainly the "least bad" Zune, but what will this add up to in the marketplace?

Thank you for setting the record straight Paul. I am also waiting to see what Mossberg and Pogue have to say about the new Zune. Since I read your review, I am seriously thinking about selling my iPod 80GB classic and iPod Nano 16GB on eBay and getting the new Zune HD.

I also checked out Apple Insider for the first time and noticed that they had a "photo exclusive" of the opening of the new Apple store in Greenwich, CT. As I recall, you broke the story about Apple's plans to open a store in Dedham, MA on your podcast. Maybe you can get a couple snapshots of this new Apple store and put them on your blog and have a photo exclusive just like Apple Insider. How about it Paul?

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Paul's pictures are very poor. It looks low-res and the highlights are blown out (e.g., the sliding arrow key on the iPod is saturated.). Paul, what did you do? Take take these pictures with a camera phone? Get some decent SLR pictures next time.

@chuckb84

"It does deliver "HD" radio, but it doesn't mean what Microsoft wants everyone to assume it means"

What??? Microsoft didn't come up with the name HD radio. "HD Radio is the trademark for iBiquity's in-band on-channel (IBOC) technology, which was selected by the FCC in 2002 as a digital audio broadcasting method for the United States." (complements of Wikipedia).  Why would Microsoft call HD Radio by a name other than what it is?  It's called the Zune HD...not Zune High Definition Radio.

And regardless of whether people think it stands for "High Definition" or know the correct moniker of  "Hybrid Digital", it doesn't change what HD radio actually is, which is what Microsoft put in the device.  I don't see where you're going with this point.

I thought Mossberg and Pogue were considered meritless around here because of their pro-Apple bias.

So, which is it:  

a) They're so biased that when they like a Microsoft product, you know the Microsoft product must be really good

b) When they like Microsoft products, their reviews are worthwhile, but when they like Apple products, they're biased?

Or are there other ways to read this?

Myth 6: Reviewers will treat the device fairly despite it lacking an Apple logo.

Expect most reviewers to focus on the negative aspects of the device, i.e., the app store, iTunes compatibility, accessories, etc.

blog.newsweek.com/.../envy-the-apple-of-hp-s-eye.aspx

"The laptop HP announced today, the appropriately named Envy, is as brazen a case of design thievery as it gets, aping the look and feel of Apple's MacBook in every conceivable way. If I worked at HP, I would be ashamed to walk in the door today. "

Some goes for Windows 7, which is a blatant copy of OSX and clearly a 'you gotta succeed some time' attempt by Microsoft, after trying similar things for the past 15-20 years (Netscape? Lotus?): it's a good thing, a very good thing, this no-good software company with engineers who do not know 1 bit about engineering, designers who do not know 1 pixel of design aesthetics, and marketeers that do not know *** about branding.

This touchscreen thing with HD in its name, that isn't even HD, comes with no software installed, comes with no Appstore (who cares about the 7 apps), is just another failure in a long line of failures by a company that shoves software down your throat by making vendor lock-in deal through ignorant nitwits as their skeemers, most of whom you'll find on this MS sponsor site.

Another failure. Clearly another failure. There's a reason why it's not released in Europe.

The 'AppleInsider' is a joke... I was already banned once for not aggreeing 100% that Apple products are actually a gift from God himself. Anything posted by them has to be taken with a grain of salt ;)

UI video is here:

www.crunchgear.com/.../zune-hds-ui-the-full-tour

It's pretty. I don't know how good it is to use, but it makes a good demo, and will probably sell some Zunes in Best Buy.

I was a little cranky to find out that my local Best Buy didn't even bother to put the Zune HD display up at the store. All they had was a couple of "pre-registration" cards that had expired on 9/14. When I asked a customer service person where the new Zune HD was they said they had two of them in the back, one 32GB and one 16GB. They figured no one would want them so they didn't even put them on the floor.

Personally, I think that's just wrong.

So while the Apple boys are jumping up and down about how awful the Zune HD is (and I don't agree with that assessment, despite my wide selection of Macs and various Apple products in my house), I would just like the opportunity to get my hands on one of these devices so I can find out for myself. I have messed around with the Zune 4.0 software and I love it, I just want to sync something to it.

What are "skeemers"?

"comes with no Appstore"

And I assume Jobs just waved a magic wand and thousands of apps just appeared out of thin air?  The thing was just released *yesterday*.  How many apps should there be?

"this no-good software company with engineers who do not know 1 bit about engineering, designers who do not know 1 pixel of design aesthetics"

Who are you talking about, the iTunes software developers?

@cesjr: "I can't think of any reason to get a zune HD given the utter lack of apps for the zune." Because not everyone cares about apps which is evidenced by the fact that the iPod touch is not the top selling iPod.

@nim55: "the sliding arrow key on the iPod is saturated" that's a joke, right? That's what an iPod Touch, when viewed at an angle, looks like. That was the point of the photo.

Logjamming  said: Some goes for Windows 7, which is a blatant copy of OSX..."

OSX IS NOT A OS!!!!! IT IS A GUI SHELL!!!!!

The Kernel of Windows is certainly not a copy of Unix Kernel, Which is the Kernel under the OSX Gui shell...

THe only thing we can say is, Yes Apple recycle good Gui Ideas from Microsoft... And Microsoft recycle good Gui ideas from Microsoft.... BUT STOP TELLING WINDOWS IS A COPY OF OSX BECAUSE OSX IS NOT AN OS AT ITSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Logjamming  said: Some goes for Windows 7, which is a blatant copy of OSX..."

OSX IS NOT A OS!!!!! IT IS A GUI SHELL!!!!!

The Kernel of Windows is certainly not a copy of Unix Kernel, Which is the Kernel under the OSX Gui shell...

THe only thing we can say is, Yes Apple recycle good Gui Ideas from Microsoft... And Microsoft recycle good Gui ideas from Apple.... BUT STOP TELLING WINDOWS IS A COPY OF OSX BECAUSE OSX IS NOT AN OS AT ITSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We'll decide whether it's failed by next march.

Has MS released a goal for sales for the device?

EricoF3 said: "OSX IS NOT A OS!!!!! IT IS A GUI SHELL!!!!!"

A Gui Shell like Ubuntu, Gnome, KDE and so on...

"Has MS released a goal for sales for the device?"

To get more than 1.1% marketshare. It will be interesting to see how they decide to define the "market" to maximize the claims they can make. Much like Ballmer's hilarious claim that the original Zune got 25% of the "high end market" for mp3 players. Somehow that turned into 1.1% of the market as everyone else defines it.

arstechnica.com/.../zune-hd-apps-are-here-complete-with-pre-roll-ads.ars

Ouch.

Re (again): Quake 3

The Quake 3 Arena video done on the Tegra has full graphics options turned on with a simple recompile of the stock source code.  AA and AF are also enabled.  It's also a dev unit, not the Zune HD, and the source code was unoptimized.

On the iPhone, Q3A has been heavily optimized for the platform, AA and AF are off, and texture filtering is much worse (I saw it on a clients system - it's obviously bilinear filtered, which even a 3Dfx Voodoo 1 could beat with trilinear filtering).

Ask any qualified reviewer if those review stats are fair between platforms.

After you pick yourself off the floor from being summarily smacked down, maybe you should wait until games actually start flowing out for the Zune, and check the games rendering engine for which options are specified (all the Quake games have an in-game console which will tell you which graphics engine rendering features are enabled).

BTW:  Gran Turismo on PSP is cranking out 60fps, and the graphics look awesome, although, they are not as good as what the Tegra can do, even though the tps rate is higher than what the iPhone 3GS can do.

Erico, been drinking today?  

gavers: "@nim55:  the sliding arrow key on the iPod is saturated" that's a joke, right? That's what an iPod Touch, when viewed at an angle, looks like. That was the point of the photo."

No, gavers, I meant the bottom picture which shows both devices from face-on, not at an angle. Believe me, as an avid photographer I know what a saturated region looks like. These pictures were not taken with a quality SLR.

Paul myth 1 in your article.  

Please unlock the iTouch, go to photos and zoom in to the same range as the photo on the Zune, so you can get rid of the white area on the right in the iTouch picture making it look less washed out.  Also if you zoom in the detail will show better.

Otherwise that comparison is crap.  Not that I would think that you would give it a fair shot.

Seriously Apple insider said that OLED had a great image.  Their points were....washed out in sunlight, power requirements, and life of the screen.  These are not Zune issues they are any OLED issue, and Appleinsider said as much about the Sony Walkman as well.

I pretty much stopped there when your FUD got so deep.

"These pictures were not taken with a quality SLR."

Taken with a Canon PowerShot SX200 IS

Enrico, thats three times the same message: I'm guessing your browser (IE, no doubt) during the first attempt, your OS (Windows, no doubt) during the second that got you so outraged you didn't border to finish the third: crappy software is a ***, isn't it?

Especially if it's a scandalous copy. Oh, the frustration of Microsoft products.....

"Expect most reviewers to focus on the negative aspects of the device, i.e., the app store, iTunes compatibility, accessories, etc."

Depends on how you look at it.  This is a saturated market, its also a slipping market.  Its also a rapidly changing market.  I think next year Apple will have a Nano 16gig and iTouches.  The shuffle will be gone, and the classic will be replaced by a 128gig iTouch.

Zune has done the same thing.  Both MS and Apple are saying to the world, its not about just playing music anymore.  Its about, all media and applications.

When you look at that way then anything new coming out is going to be compared to what we have now and why should we switch.  If Google made a similar device it would be compared to the iTouch.

If reviewing any device you would be looking for features that are first new and second if they are new would anyone want them.

MS should have held off.  As a consumer what do I see from Zune.  There is only one device now. Its only sold in the US, and the app store does not exist.  Apps are coming for it, maybe, or maybe for Windows Mobile?  So what do I get, a media player with a bright screen.

@Chuck "Furthermore, it will only hold 2-3 HD movies, so carrying HD movies around on this thing doesn't make much sense to me, and it only holds those 2-3 if you use if for nothing else."

2-3?  Maybe 1 on the 32gig.  A 2 hour HD movie ripped from a BD is between 25-30gig.  I am going to assume that the 2-3 come off of the Zune store, and those would be highly compressed semi-HD, 720p-ish.

When the Zune HD 128gig ships you will be able to hold 5 movies, and nothing else.

How about the Myths that Paul lists on his comparison page between the Zune HD and the iPod touch.

The iPod touch is $299/$399 NOT $300/$400.

Listing it that way is a deliberate misrepresentation in order to make the Zune HD seem like a much better value, when it really is not. There is no way to mistake the number $299 for $300 or $399 for $400. No where on any Apple website or advertisement does it EVER say $300/$400. This is simply a ploy to make it seem like the iPod touch is more expensive than it is.  Sure its only $1, but to the eye, at first glance, that 3/4 jumps out when next to the 2/2.  

Then there is his nonsense about not listing the specs of the 8GB iPod touch. Who cares if its the low end.  That's the whole point. Its the only touch screen Zune or iPod under $200.  But for some reason, Paul chooses not to list it. Why is that?  He gives some silly reason that since Microsoft no longer sells the old model Zune, he can't list the 8GB iPod touch.  Those old Zune models are DISCONTINUED. The 8GB iPod Touch is a currently shipping product and will be for some time.  There is NO reason to leave it out.  Just an attempt to misrepresent the facts and create more myths.  

Maybe the Zune pricing does not look so good when compared the iPod Touch.

$220 - 16 GB                  $300 - 32 GB

$290 - 32 GB          $400 - 64 GB

Should really be

$220 - 16 GB                  $199 - 8 GB

$290 - 32 GB          $299 - 32 GB

                                         $399 - 64 GB

Paul loves to compare low end PC hardware, that comes with incomplete feature sets, to Apple Hardware. Then he claims Apple is more expensive, and rants about the "Apple tax".  

Now that Apple has decided to make a lower priced iPod Touch to hit that affordable price point, suddenly its not appropriate to compare that with the new Zune that starts at a higher price point.

Typical.

gfryesc1  said: "Erico, been drinking today?"

What? Why did you ask that? I never drink!!

rr0de74,

But at least when you watch that HD movie on the screen, there will be less pixels "wasted" on letter boxing...

Never mind the other uses for the device where those "extra 48 rows of pixels" may come in handy.

Remember..  "MS got it right!"

@DRWAM:

You should send Logjam a copy of that video I sent you.

"As a consumer what do I see from Zune.  There is only one device now."

Wrong.  Existing Zunes will be on sale for a while.

www.zune.net/.../default.htm

" Apps are coming for it, maybe, or maybe for Windows Mobile?"

LOL!  Apps have been available for Windows Mobile even before it was "Windows Mobile".

"So what do I get, a media player with a bright screen."

And a good source of online content (if you live the US - the only place you can buy it anyway), HD Radio, HD video-out support via HDMI, a good UI, and superior PC software to anything that's available on the market.

Oh, man, Microsoft must have a death wish for this thing. ADS on the "free" apps? When you only have 9 apps, this is just stupid.

Paul, if you love Microsoft----and we know you do----call them up and tell them to re-release the apps without the ads. What a blunder. I bet the iPod commercial about the ads in the Microsoft apps is already in production. How many free apps for the iTouch are there that can be compared with Microsoft's free apps with advertisements? I could write that commercial myself...

The other notable lacks: No camera, No GPS, No Bluetooth and

"Can it stream Internet radio? There's no app to do so yet, and we were unable to play audio through Pandora, NPR, or other Web outlets in the browser."

"Does it run Flash? No." Huh. Apple got quite a beating over that. Apparently, it wasn't some dark Apple conspiracy or blunder.

As rr0de74 noted above, "This is a saturated market, its also a slipping market.  Its also a rapidly changing market."

Yah. Paul predicted several years ago (correctly for once) that the iPod, and the whole mp3 player market, would be subsumed into the cell phone market and the gadgets would merge into one thing. Of course, what he did not anticipate is that Apple would produce the convergence device that defines this new market. Unless it turns into a phone, the Zune is a niche player in a dwindling market competing against an entrenched incumbent.

"2-3?  Maybe 1 on the 32gig.  A 2 hour HD movie ripped from a BD is between 25-30gig.  I am going to assume that the 2-3 come off of the Zune store, and those would be highly compressed semi-HD, 720p-ish."

You know absolutely nothing about video compression technology.

"Never mind the other uses for the device where those "extra 48 rows of pixels" may come in handy."

I'd thankfully drop the extra rows of pixels so that my 720p video scales properly on my device.  Oh, but that's right - the iPod touch can't play 720p video....

"Of course, what he did not anticipate is that Apple would produce the convergence device that defines this new market."

The Jack of all trades is a master of none too.

First of all, Paul, great article and well done on the perfectly factual summary, despite what the Apple folks are claiming in the comments.

Amazing how ignorant and misleading the Apple folks are... and not surprisingly, how childish they are about their response to proving them wrong.

Myth 1 -- OLED by its very design uses less energy for brighter/clear pictures than its LCD and LED counterparts. This is why TV manufacturers are beginning to use it and are successfully claiming that their TV's are more eco/green-friendly while still providing "sharper blacks, whiter whites, and bolder colors."

Myth 2 -- Tegra is not only a powerhouse CPU/GPU/Northbridge/Southbridge chipset, it consumes a  lot less energy than its competitors (at least in design), which explains the lower power battery and yet still  out-powering the iPod. Go figure.

Myth 3 -- The new Zune HD display is still a valid 16:9 ratio, which to me suggests that although it doesn't output at 720p on the tiny screen, it's still a properly proportioned HD screen which means that the detail will still mostly be there, even though nobody is claiming that technicality but me. Microsoft has been 100% clear on this point which leads me to the follow-up Myth 4...

Myth 4 -- People are really nitpicking this, but it doesn't change the fact that hybrid digital still provides high-quality digital (let's call this HD to confuse everyone, lol) radio, FM radio, AND AM radio. Yes. All of them. So you can criticize and play word trickery all you want, but the fact is that it's HD anyway you want. AS if that's not enough, Microsoft hasn't mislead or confused anyone about this. It's in ALL of their marketing. It's only confusing to people who can't read and/or can't comprehend what they read.

Myth 5 -- Microsoft hasn't positioned the device to be a full-featured apps platform. Yet. In the future? Maybe. But not yet. If you think that Microsoft is trying to go head-to-head with Apple right now, you're just fooling yourself. Microsoft doesn't play the game that way. Microsoft inches in feature by feature, bit by bit and steals away your market little by little until one day it's gone and you're left crying about them being anti-competitive.

Even Gizmodo--- Apple Fanboys Extraordinaire--- were praising the Zune's display and web browser today. Time to suck it up and admit that while it may not swoop in and eat the hole Apple at once, it might actually make people pay attention... especially since so many of you are bitter over your precious camera.

Waethorn,

To clarify your mischaracterization from the Chrome thread:

I do relize your point of view is coming from proprietary software where things are closed BUT Google’s Chrome Browser is in fact an OPEN SOURCE application. Meaning you, yes you --> can download the actual source code and make any modification to Chrome for your personal needs. A cursed idea to M$ or Apple.

Although, apple does contribute to the open source community. Hope that clears up some of your ignorance.

I should clarify ... I'm not 100% certain whether the new HD radio chipset enables AM radio or not. I simply know that the chipset used is capable of doing so.

2. Myth 2. The telling point is, "Even if the Tegra did supply multiple CPU cores, the Windows CE kernel used by the Zune HD doesn't support multi-core SMP so it couldn't make any use of them."

The Windows CE Kernal was last  updated in 2006 (version 6.0) to include such things as multi-core support, and works on multiple processors (including x86, ARM, SH4, and MIPS).

Frankly, the whole comment is nothing more than smoke and mirrors. VERY few applications require this  multi-core or even multi-threading capabilities. Of course, the Zune uses the XNA library, like the XBox. That is a pretty powerful graphics library.

FWIW, Zune programming has been possible for sometime now, the 3.1 release of the XNA studio really basically adds support for the HD specific stuff: like Touch and Accelaromter APIs.

What is clear is that the Apple fans see the Zune HD as a threat. I'm not sure why, the Zune isn't going to change the sales equation anytime soon. ... Unless, you are one of those people who need to feel superior to others because of your personal choices....

Nice comeback Paul. Lets give the Zune HD its due and a chance to prove itself. Time will tell.

"I do relize your point of view is coming from proprietary software where things are closed BUT Google’s Chrome Browser is in fact an OPEN SOURCE application."

Let's just say that Google has a history of including proprietary closed-source modules with their own compiled versions of software that they make open source.  Also, it changes nothing in the way of their terms of use, in that they have full access to any data that passes through their system.  And who is Mozilla's premiere sponsor?  Oh yes, it's Google, even though they are now writing "their own" web browser.

The only thing open is Google users' body cavities.  Guess what Google puts in there?

@chuckb84 - "The other notable lacks: No camera, No GPS, No Bluetooth"

I'm not sure...so can you tell us which non phone iPod Touch model includes all 3 of those things?

--tayme

@Waethorn - Truely classless and 7th gradish. Nice.

--tayme

@Wea..  "HD video-out support via HDMI"

Once you hand over another $89.99 (or should I say $90?) for the dock that is required....

www.amazon.com/.../B002JPITYS

And another $8 for a HDMI cable...

www.amazon.com/.../ref=sr_1_3

So for another $100 I can output my single BD ripped movie to a TV.

Please do tell us how many 720p movies we can fit on a Zune HD 16 or 32gig.  Please do.  Where do I get them from?

"I'd thankfully drop the extra rows of pixels so that my 720p video scales properly on my device.  Oh, but that's right - the iPod touch can't play 720p video...."

Especially considering there are no "HD" games to play on the Zune.  

Sorry I would take the 48 extra rows of pixels to play games, read email, look at a photo, browse a web page.  Brilliant thinking there Wae....

Ocean, while the company has not released sales goals, they have stated that pre-orders exceeded expectations by a significant amount.

For those that are curious, we use the Zune HD and are developing for it in two contexts. There is a lot to be happy about and some that challenges us - we want to see all people have better tools (the tools). They will, but when?

As for the device itself... it is really an amazing product. The UI is aggressively bold and candidly, I never thought Microsoft would go for it. I am glad they did and it an "artsy" kind of way, it is just dang cool. It's very different.

If there is a word that I would use to characterize the device it would have to be "Smooth" - it's just smooth and I really like that. That is our goal for all things - our hardware and certainly our apps. It is never jarring and I will admit, I have fat, old and very worn hands. The whole "touch" thing was hard for me at first and for the first two hours with the device, I was not sure I'd be able to get the hang of it. Shoot... my fingertips are so battered after so many years that "touch" (ya, you gotta be kidding, right?) Any older guy knows what I mean - we get dinged and cut all the time and the only news of it we have is when someone says: "Hey, you're bleeding...." Ok, so the touch deal was just weird and where the iPhone/Touch had been impossible for me.... after about two hours with the Zune HD, I had it nailed (yes, I had tried a lot harder with the touch and for a lot longer). After a day, my fingers had the Zune HD down and on day two with the device, it was all second nature. See.. the UI zooms and the targets are larger and they make sense.

Performance... is simply stunning. It is very fluid and there is no lag. Now.. I really do not like web browsing on a small device, but the mobile browser on the Zune HD is changing that and I think that bit has surprised me most. It's actually really good - not perfect, but really, really good.

Having built systems by hand for over forty years now, I can tell you that this thing was designed by people who loved it. You have to, you see. So regardless of where it is, or will be, I have to respect the team that made this thing. You can see and feel it all over the device. They loved it and wanted others to do the same. That translates into what one experiences when using it as that "smooth" feel I spoke about. In all candor, I've never been, nor will I ever be as good as those that made this thing.  I can make servers and workstations that eat anyone's lunch, but this thing is in a class all by itself. It is built so very well.

Thanks for allowing me to share my thoughts on this.

@shark

"Myth 6: Reviewers will treat the device fairly despite it lacking an Apple logo. Expect most reviewers to focus on the negative aspects of the device, i.e., the app store, iTunes compatibility, accessories, etc"

Let's be honest Shark. That's  what happens on the internet. Pundits just love a face-off! Every review... even Paul's is going to compare the HD to the Touch.

Here's a nice example of, not only talking about negative aspects... but actually fabricating a new one.

"If there's another complaint to be made about the nano, it's that it is incompatible with Apple's wonderful Apps Store."

Guess who wrote that. He surprisingly failed to mention that the Nano is terrible at taking stones out of horses' hooves.

You want Apple bias? Read Applensider.

You want anti-Apple bias? Thurrott.

Something is not right about the comments of widescreen movies not scaling correctly on the ipod touch.

If you compress a movie to 480x272 for use on the iPod it will play back at that resolution

It does not matter that the screen is 480x320.  Nothing is getting warped, it is just black pixels filling up the rest of the screen. This in no way effects the playback of the video.

If you don't like black bars, that is fine.  Its a personal choice. But there will be even BIGGER black bars on the Zune HD when playing back standard definition  4x3 content.  Which is still the majority of most video.  

So if you want to watch all your old South Park, Seinfeld, Simpsons, A-Team, or whatever, on the Zune HD, you will have to deal with giant black bars as the Zune must scale back that 640x480 video to 362.66 x 272.  Or something messed up like that. Maybe it will put black bars all around the video and play it back at 320x240. Who knows. I have not heard or seen anything about that.

Dam this is good stuff!!!!

My prediction.  Zune sales go from 1.1% to maybe 3%.  Over all its a failure in the business world.  The release of the Apple Tablet erases the Zune HD from mainstream consumers memory.  

Pauly that second photo is a joke brother.  Let see here is a close up, sheeety picture of my arssse, that cuts out the glaring white spots on the Zune.  Here is a sheeety picture of my arsssse zoomed way out, showing the glaring white spots, behind the screen lock, at a slight angle to show the weakness of the iTouch LCD, on the iTouch, which looks better??  My 5 year old could see what you are trying to do there Pauly.

David and Walt own you, every day of the week.

First, the Zune needs to offer something that the competition doesn't have if it is to succeed. Remember, this thing is a distant 4th or 5th with 1.1% marketshare.

Second, whatever arbitrary distinctions Paul wants to make, such as refusing to list the 8gig iPod Touch in his comparison table, the low end Touch should be on the list, and so should the iPhone. Those markets are merging and the days of the standalone mp3/video gadget are numbered, except in the low end. The Zune HD, it seems to me, is an attempt to stake out a spot in the high end, so they should act like it.

After all these comments, I do agree that we should just sit back and see what the market reaction is. I don't think it will set the industry "Afire" as Paul says Windows 7 will(!) but the reaction will certainly be better than it was to all the other Zune devices that were rendered extinct by the "the most addled yet" iPod lineup. My prediction is that Apple will lose a whole more Touch sales to the iPhone than to the Zune HD.

We can tell anything... but the Zune HD is only available in USA... WHY??

How they can figure talk some land over ITouch if they don't release the Zune HD widly?

@Gorath - Pretty sure Paul knows exactly what "Jump the shark" means.  He means that the site he once lent credence to has now jumped the shark. "Jumping the shark" refers to the single event that led to the demise of the site ( at least in Paul's opinion).  It is based on a Happy Days episode where Fonzi jumped over a shark tank on his motorcycle.  The belief is that Happy Days went down hill from there and that Shark tank episode was the turning point.

This entire comment thread is riddled with disinformation, as if each "side" wants to prove itself right and they feel the only way to do that is lie about the other device.

Like this guy:

@rr0de74: "And another $8 for a HDMI cable..." well no, if you read the description for the dock, or simply looked at the picture you would have seen "plug the included HDMI cable to your HDTV." No separate purchase is required.

And further, $90 for this is less than what Apple charges for the same set of equipment (a dock, remote, HD and SD cables).

Apple Universal Dock $49 (Dock and remote, no cables)

Apple Component AV Cable $49 (what it says + charger, and you have to buy Apple's cable because of their chip. Also Apple doesn't offer HDMI or any digital out)

Apple Composite AV Cable $49 (+charger. at least you can buy a third-party version of this)

So $89.99 for Zune Vs. $147 for iPod (and you don't even get HDMI, but you'll get two chargers!)

Seriously, people, try not lying. It's fun!

Waethorn,

Now you’re bombastic for no reason. As if there is any difference from your ISP or Alexa tracking code built into Windows or aggressive use of CLSID in all windows ver. The point you missed _ you can remove all phone-home crap from chrome.

Ergo, opensource.

"Erico, been drinking today?"

I didn't think Homer ever stopped drinking.

Of all of the outright lies I've read in the comments section of  this blog, this is the worst: "Fonzi jumped over a shark tank on his motorcycle".  The Fonze jumped over that shark on water skis.  I mean COME ON!!!

I stand corrected Barry.  I got the water skis mixed up with another stunt episode where he jumped over the 14 garbage cans on his bike in season 3. Man... if that episode was years later we would be saying "Jumped the can"

"Jumped the can": I like it better.

Thurrott should not get in the ring with this guy. He decomposes claims with some pretty solid research. As a matter of fact he tore apart Paul's journalism a short while back.

www.roughlydrafted.com/.../592E3270-32C8-4852-975C-162E788749CA.html

Great article Paul.  I'm just waiting to get my hands on one since they haven't been released yet in Canada.  Any idea when that will happen btw?

Also, is there any reason anyone can think of that the Zune HD wouldn't work properly in Canada if I just hopped south of the border to pick one up?  We don't have Zune marketplace here yet either but I've got alternative (and legal) means of getting music without having to use iTunes or Zune.  Will I have any other trouble? Any thoughts?

Can I just clear up this "It's not really HD ZOMG!!!" FUD?

A 32" 1080p HDTV has 68 pixels per inch of screen and is meant to be viewed from about 6-8 feet away. At 720p (minimum HD), this would be 46 pixels per inch of screen.

The Zune HD has 167 pixels per inch of screen and is meant to be viewed from about 1-2 feet away. That's about 4 times closer with almost 4 times the pixel density (for 720p) and 2.5 times the pixel density (for 1080p). You would not be able to tell the difference between a 720p video, if you could fit 1280x720 pixels on such a small screen, and a downscaled video on the Zune HD's screen.

@gravers exactly how did I lie?  Yes I did miss the included cable.  So take off the $8, it only cost $90 extra to play HD movies.  I never said anything about the iTouch playing HD movies did I?  No I did not.  Its not advertised as a feature.

My point is the Zune HD feature of HD out is a joke.  Its a bullet point for a sales add or ppt in a meeting.  I bet less than 1% of Zune HD users use it ever or use it more than a few times.

Why?  Because where are you going to get these HD movies?  Zune store?  So you go to the Zune store and you "rent" a HD movie for 24hours?  How many can you fit on a Zune HD 16gig?  If from the Zune store I am guessing what 2-3.  If ripped at a decent bit rate from a BD maybe 1 or Zero unless you have the Zune 32gig.  How long does it take to sync that movie?  Over USB it would take 30-40 min for a 20gig BD rip?  Over the wireless G sync...for get about it.  Then you have to buy that dock.

Thats a lot of hurtles for little gain.  I would bet if you have  a HD TV you already have a better way of getting HD content on it, say your cable box, or a PS3, or a Xbox, or a stand alone BD player(they are cheap now $150 at Walmart) or a PC with a BD.  I think the Zune HD would be my last choice, based on its limitations and cost to get there.

@rr0de74@live.com

You're so missing the "practical" applications for the Zune HD and 720P HD media with the dock.

Couple refreshers first:

The Zune HD, like the Zunes before it, can sync over one's wireless network

HD movies and TV rented and purchased through the Zune Marketplace can be accessed across networks and the Zune HD - from the massive storage potential available to PC's.

Now... I use one Zune HD as an HD media extender (not to be confused with an MCX). I have it hooked up in a room that does not have an MCX, or an Xbox.

When I want to watch a TV program, or a movie in that room, I access our collection via the Zune HD, which syncs wirelessly.

In addition to all the other media - like HD Radio, which really is quite good, we have a very low cost and easy media solution that has access to a very fat collection - most especially since the host PC supports DVR-MS and monitoring the folders where recorded TV is located from inside the Zune SW provides access to all that media as well.

It works really well, easily and the image on a 37" LG HDTV is quite good. Not quite 1080P, but candidly, on a 37" screen I cannot tell any difference between it and our other, larger 1080P panels.

Any case... just one use that replicates what we used to do for customers with the 120 - only now we can do it in HD!

It's the pot calling the kettle black when you say that some other blog has jumped the shark.

This is a surprise. A post saying that all is great with a Microsoft product, coming from a Microsoft shill.

Well, so much for the "shockingly good" browser on the Zune:

news.cnet.com/8301-13526_3-10354240-27.html

@rr0de74: It certainly sounded like you were knocking the price of the accessory when you said "So for another $100 I can output my single BD ripped movie to a TV." But now that you know Apple's inferior cables cost more, your attack is on the number of HD movies the Zune can hold.

I don't have an answer to where you're going to get them from, aside from the source you already mentioned, Zune marketplace. But I will tell you that a 2-hour 720p video is about 4.5GB and they look great.

Apart from all the misinformation and flat out lies bandied about here, the simple fact is that if the Zune HD takes market share from Apple then it is a success.

gizmodo.com/.../zune-hd-review-the-pmp-evolved

The big question: Can the Zune HD compete with the iPod Touch? I get the sense that Microsoft isn't trying to, exactly.

The Zune HD's screen is extremely reflective, making it difficult to read in sunlight, while the iPod Touch's LCD was quite easy to read in the same conditions. Part of this difference is due to technology and part of this is due to UI. The iPod touch uses black text on white for music and video browsing, while the Zune HD is reversed. The Zune HD's black background acts as a mirror, making it difficult to see anything but your own annoyed face.

If you've got a load of torrented HD video in MKV like I do, you're a bit screwed—I tried several converters (iSquint, Cucusoft, Handbrake) and never managed to transcode MKV to a decent-quality Zune-compatible file.

The Zune HD's UI is everything but an example of Apple minimalism, constantly teetering between digital eye candy and complete ocular over-stimulation.

s the same grab-and-flick method of touchscreen navigation as the iPod Touch and Sony X-Series, though like the X-Series it doesn't feel quite as fluid or organic as the iPod Touch. Trying to scroll really quickly through a long list of artists feels like it takes longer than it should

But this one tops it!

The Now Playing screen cleverly finds a photo of the artist and uses that as the wallpaper, and I love the screensaver that slowly scrolls the artist, track name, album name, length and album art. Microsoft nails the advanced design work—what about the obvious? How do I pause, navigate forward and backward, and adjust volume? It's not as easy as it should be.

So, now you've got a device that has a bright screen (but only if you stay indoors) and you're stuck with music (no apps!) you can't navigate through.

FAILURE, FAILURE, FAILURE!

I hate how black stuff is always so reflective.  I was standing in a parking lot wondering why people on the internet don't use the word "fail" more often, and I got asphalt blindness.

Nice selective quoting, logjamming.

Here's Gizmodo's conclusion, for reference:

Best of Breed

The Zune HD is the best touchscreen PMP on the market. It's got the most unique vision, the most impressive hardware and the most stylish software.

But I'm not sure that's enough. PMPs like the Zune HD and Sony X-Series try to advance the genre with new and impressive media playback features, but the success of the iPod Touch shows that that media playback alone isn't necessarily enough anymore. People seem to want pocketable computers, either in smartphone or near-smartphone form, or simpler, smaller devices like the iPod Nano and SanDisk's Sansa line. So it's not going to steal sales from the iPod Touch, but it should make some Samsung and Sony executives pretty jealous.

I'm left wishing Microsoft could get its Zune team to work with (read: boss around) the Windows Mobile team to put together a media phone. The Zune HD is a great PMP, but it could have been a jaw-dropping, unbelievable phone.

Pingback from  AppleInsider jumps the shark, declares Zune HD 'failed … | IPodsnMP3.Com

Desperation from Microsoft. They know the Zune HD is dead.

www.appleinsider.com/.../microsoft_sells_restrictive_new_wimo_marketplace_via_iphone_ads.html

This kind of non-thinking, having no idea about the future until Apple tells it to the world (especially Microsoft), is what makes Microsoft so lame. The Zune HD is dead

"Asked about the features Apple was adding to its iPods, including video recording, Seitz replied, "The more things like that that make their way into these devices that aren't about great music and video playback, the more it's distracting or sacrificing that original purpose of the device. Apps are jamming in, cameras -- that's work that's not being done on the music front.""

The Zune HD debacle keeps getting worse for Microsoft. A horrible browser (almost a decade old) and a shitty keyboard

news.cnet.com/8301-13526_3-10354240-27.html

The Zune HD is dead already.

This is great stuff!

www.apple.com/.../accessibility.html

@lotsa: "Well, so much for the "shockingly good" browser on the Zune:"

@robertsjoe: "The Zune HD debacle keeps getting worse for Microsoft. A horrible browser (almost a decade old) and a shitty keyboard"

So, for one guy that said the browser sucked, I have one that says it's great:

gizmodo.com/.../zune-hd-review-the-pmp-evolved

"...Zune HD's internet browser is awesome."

Looks like robertsjoe and lotsa agree onb one more thing.

Pingback from  Dew Drop – September 17, 2009 | Alvin Ashcraft's Morning Dew

I'm not sure why Paul feels he needs to spend so much time defending the Zune HD when it *might* sell a million copies. Is this how badly MSFT is losing this battle, that they need him to defend their player? All because it's made by MSFT? Sandisk has ~seven times the market share that the Zune does. Talk about betting on a losing horse.

No matter how good it might be, it will still sell poorly. I predict this will be the last Zune we ever see.

@BladRnr

"No matter how good it might be, it will still sell poorly. I predict this will be the last Zune we ever see."

Unless it grows up into a phone. Given the mess that is Microsoft's mobile strategy, that will take some time.

@Mark KB

"People seem to want pocketable computers, either in smartphone or near-smartphone form, or simpler, smaller devices like the iPod Nano and SanDisk's Sansa line. So it's not going to steal sales from the iPod Touch, but it should make some Samsung and Sony executives pretty jealous."

That's right. Apple will lose more iPod Touch sales to their own iPhone than to the Zune HD. Relative to the iPod/iPhone lineup, Zune HD sales will be-----what was that classic phrase? Ah, yes, a "rounding error".

Wow, the harmony the Apple nuts are achieving with their whistling past the graveyard is really impressive.

Anybody else note that despite all these desperate posts, Paul's points about the bogus artlcle weren't refuted?

Guess they learned the trick of "If you don't have the facts on your side, shout loudly and often"

"Relative to the iPod/iPhone lineup, Zune HD sales will be-----what was that classic phrase? Ah, yes, a "rounding error"."

That's funny coming from a Mac fan.

Here are some products with a single digit market share that are considered to be successes:

1. OS X

2. Safari

3. Chrome

4. Google Apps

Vista, with a double digit market share is considered to be a failure. Zune, with a single digit market share is also considered to be a failure. Microsoft's search, with a market share that's greater than OS X's or Chrome's is considered to be a failure as well.

See a pattern emerging?

I can't help but laugh at all the posts relating to playing games or watching movies on these devices. Personally I have problems playing games on anything smaller than my 24" PC display or watching movies on anything smaller than a 42" flat panel display these days!

Who in their right mind over the age of 15 would spend two hours watching a movie on one of these things? Sure it's great comparing all the things that these things can do but who actually uses them? I have a BluRay for movies, a PC and an xBox for games and a cell phone for making, yes amazing as it may sound, telephone calls! I also have a digital SLR for taking photos as well as a smaller pocket camera for those times you just wish you had a camera with you.

For music I have my sound system at home, my PC with 7.0 surround, and a great system in my car. I own nothing that requires me to isolate myself from the world around me by sticking buds of any kind in my ears. Sometimes you just have to connect with reality, know what I'm saying?

Wow. What is going on in this thread.

I don't have a Zune HD, but I had time to fool around with one for a few minutes.

It definately looks better than the iPod touch screen-wise. And not having to use iTunes is probably the biggest plus of all for Windows users at least.

Who cares about Appleinsider? I thought that site was like the Onion where they just make up and parody things. Apparently people take it seriously?

Amen techman.merb!

techman.merb,

I have used the iPod Touch for video....but it's rare.

I used it twice on plane rides.  It worked extremely well, regardless of what Waethorn keeps ranting on about "wasted pixels".

Except in those rare instances...I agree with you.

"Guess they learned the trick of "If you don't have the facts on your side, shout loudly and often""

Let me whisper a fact softly: Zune 1.1% marketshare.

Lets refute Paul's claims as Mike would like us to do.

1) The OLED screen is ALWAYS better than the LCD screen.

OLED certainly seems to be the better screen quality in many circumstances but not all.  That is the point the original article was making.  When not in direct light, OLED outshines (pun intended) LCD. However, this is not the case when out in sunlight.

Even the photos Paul uses show some issues. Look at the first picture.  See the reflection in the upper left corner of the Zune HD. It carries right into the picture. Also, the same type of line runs all the way down the right side as well. Now look at the iPod Touch.  There is clearly a reflection that start on the upper right side. Looks like a black circle with a protrusion heading downward. Notice that reflect is much harder to see as soon as it hits the screen.

2) Chip.

Paul uses anecdotal evidence only. No benchmarks. No tests. Just the fact that the Zune performance is "excellent". This point has been disputed on Ars Technica where is shows the load times to be extremely long.  Maybe not a chip issue, but it shows that anecdotal evidence is not very reliable.  Javascript benchmarking on the Zune is horrible compared to the iPod touch as well.  Once again, this is likely a software issue, not a hardware, but if the Zune HD chip is so far advanced, shouldn't that make up for some of that poor coding?

3) Total weak argument here.  Zune HD is a PORTABLE MUSIC PLAYER.  The assumption is that when you put the letters HD after it, it plays HD.  For all your bitching about how 10.6 is not 64 bit because in some cases the system boots up with a 32 bit Kernel, to claim that the Zune HD plays HD video is also very hypocritical.  It plays HD video in a VERY limited set of circumstances that require additional hardware (An HD screen and a dock) . If you are going to make the claim that 10.6 is not truly 64 bit, then you can not claim  that the Zune HD plays High Definition Video.  

4) Most people hear the letters HD and assume it means High Definition. While its true that with radio it means something else, people are going to expect High Definition.

All this being said, I think the Zune HD looks like a perfectly good choice for a PMP.  I have no issues with it as a products, just the silly arguments about why its so much better than the iPod touch.

So much for bias.

Pogue:  a gorgeous multitouch screen dominates the front. Its handsome, beveled metal case weighs next to nothing, yet still feels expensive and solid in the hand.

Inhatko:  It’s a wonderful player that triumphantly justifies its existence in a world dominated by iPods.

Pogue:  If this thing came out in a parallel universe where the iPod didn’t exist, it would be hailed as a god.

Inhatko:  The Zune HD is all about Patience Rewarded. We’ve all read about the guy who (unfathomably) loved his first-generation Zune enough to get a tattoo of the Zune logo.To this man I say: you can now wear short sleeves with pride.

@Ocean, the reviews are pretty fair and bring up the same points Paul does in his review. I guess they feel that Zune doesn't pose much of a threat to the iPod ecosystem at this point and that allows them to be more honest with their review.

"Please do tell us how many 720p movies we can fit on a Zune HD 16 or 32gig."

On a 32GB, at least 2 at a very high bitrate, but at least double that if you know what you're doing.

How does that work out?

Simple.  My PVR has a 250GB hard drive in it.  It can store ~30 hours of 1080i content, but that's broadcast-quality and it's MPEG-2 format, so it has an extremely high bit-rate for the quality (guessing around 18Mbps).

Next, because 720p video takes much less storage space over 1080i (less pixels to deal with regardless of whether or not it's interlaced), we can automatically shave around 40% of that bitrate off (# of pixels in 720p video is ~40% of 1080i/p, which directly translates into an acceptible cut in bitrate - that's an acceptable way of calculating out bitrate conversions too BTW).

Of course, we're still left with MPEG-2 video.  MPEG-4 Level 10, aka AVC/H.264 or Windows Media Video Advanced Profile, aka VC-1 can do HD quality video at 720p at about ~6Mbps.  I've had a chance to play around with Expression Encoder 3 lately, and that's exactly the format that they recommend for the Zune HD.  It also supports WMA Professional 5.1 output which outputs as PCM via the HDMI connection on the dock.  AAC audio is limited to stereo.

"Where do I get them from?"

AnyDVD and CloneDVDmobile does it if you already have content.  Expression Encoder 3 supports the Zune HD (previous versions will too but they don't have a custom template for Zune HD).  There will likely be MANY other video encoding programs that support it as well.  You can also buy them online on the Zune Video Marketplace when it becomes available.

Paul writes..."Put simple, OLED isn't just "great" display technology for mobile devices. It's the superior technology, period."

Andy Ihnatko writes...

"But a media player such as the Zune or the iPod Touch needs to handle a wide range of imagery. If the Zune is superior in displaying graphics and album art, it’s not as strong when it comes to viewing video. Skin tones appear to be a little oversaturated. And though both displays aren’t at their best when outdoors, the iPod’s screen is brighter and easier to view in sunlight.

The photo is intentionally overexposed; otherwise, it’d be difficult to make out the Zune HD display at all."

www.suntimes.com/.../1775373,ihnatko-zune-hd-microsoft-091609.article

Therefore Myth #1 stands.  

While OLED is better in many cases, but not all.   It can't be the "superior technology, period."  Its clearly inferior in many important cases.  This does not mean its a bad choice, or that its worse. Its just not better.

" is there any reason anyone can think of that the Zune HD wouldn't work properly in Canada if I just hopped south of the border to pick one up?  We don't have Zune marketplace here yet either but I've got alternative (and legal) means of getting music without having to use iTunes or Zune.  Will I have any other trouble? Any thoughts?"

The only thing I can think of is that they might possibly restrict device activations to the US, but they haven't before, so I'm guessing they wouldn't start now.

What online services do you use to get music from?

yoshi

I guess when you can't argue the actual facts you can make up a strawman and argue against that instead and hope nobody notices that you changed the claim.

Myth 1: OLED is a great display technology for mobile devices

FWIW, here is the official Zune HD video encoding template settings from Expression Encoder 3:

Zune HD AV Dock Profile:

Video

Codec:  VC-1 Advanced Profile

Mode:  VBR Constrained

Peak buffer: 4secs

Framerate:  30fps  **note:  matches source

Keyframe interval:  4secs

Average bitrate:  6100kbps

Peak bitrate:  12000kbps

Width:  1280

Height:  720

Video aspect ratio:  match source

Force square pixels:  on

Resize mode:  letterbox

Audio:  **note:  most options will match source except codec and bitrate

Codec:  WMA Professional

Mode:  VBR Constrained

Bitrate:  384kbps (average)

Peak bitrate:  512kbps

Peak buffer window:  1.5secs

Channels:  5.1

Sample rate:  48Khz

Bits per sample:  24-bit

Also FYI:  I had imported a Sony 1080i w/ 5.1aud AVCHD clip from an HD camcorder into Expression Encoder 3 to get those audio settings.

The H.264 encoder profile is the same for video, substituting H.264 as the codec, but audio is set as AAC, stereo, 192Kbps CBR single pass (I have yet to see any AAC encoders that do 5.1 w/ or w/o VBR encoding).

Something to note is that the Xbox 360 profile is far inferior to the Zune HD profile, except for resolution.  The default is 1080p, but all the other settings are lower (4Mbps, VC-1 Main Profile, CBR, etc.).  I find it interesting that they didn't/can't pump up the settings higher on the console over the portable.  What does that say about the 360's ability to play high-bandwidth HD video?  It doesn't have a Blu-ray player in it, but will it play back video smoothly that's designed for the Zune HD dock?

>>that allows them to be more honest with their review.<<

You do know what you're accusing them of, right?

You do know how incredibly stupid you sound for making that accusation, right?  It's tantamount to slander.

"You do know how incredibly stupid you sound for making that accusation, right?  It's tantamount to slander."

Sure it is, just like making such remarks about paul amounts to slander. That hasn't stopped you or any of the other robertsjoe clones, has it?

<<That hasn't stopped you or any of the other robertsjoe clones, has it? >>

Find one that I've made like that.

Mike

I guess when you can't argue the actual facts you can make up a strawman and argue against that instead and hope nobody notices that you changed the claim.

Myth 1: OLED is a great display technology for mobile devices

What is the strawman?  OLED is not that great when you are outside.  Every review of the Zune I have read so far raves about the gorgeous screen quality, but then is very disappointed when they take that outside.   In fact, everything I have read about ANY mobile devices with OLED basically echos the same thing.

Given this below average performance, how can that technology be great for mobile devices?  Maybe its just me, but I use my iPhone outside quite a bit. To me being able to see it well is important.  

While I would love to get the quality and vividness I have heard about the OLED screen on the Zune, to me, the tradeoff does not seem worth it.

OLED may someday yet become a great technology for mobile screens, but now its not quite mature, therefore, not a great technology.

www.blogcdn.com/.../zune_outside.jpg

As predicted. The Zune sucks in day light. Oh, did you guys also see the flash movie at Apps/Internet? You just click to open it, go make a cup of coffee, boil some eggs, and when you're done: the application has just opened.

"The browser renders pages nicely and utilizes pinch zooming like a champ, but there are no tab options, no history, and hardly any navigational elements at all. Additionally, the performance on page loading and rendering wasn't even in the same league as most webkit-based mobile options (Android browser, iPod touch / iPhone, Pre). Forget about YouTube or other rich media as well -- it's just not happening here."

This whole Zune-thing is imitation number 9.434 from the Microsoft copiers. And what does it get you?

A music player with lousy music controls, a browser that seems to come from 1994, and no apps (and the ones that are available take light years to open).

Oh, and you'll have to stay indoors, otherwise the reflection of the screen won't allow you to do any work.

An hilarious failure!

Logjamming and Robertsjoe are the true trolls here.

Yoshi

Again you're arguing what wasn't the topic. You keep talking as though the claim was that OLED was perfect in every way so any place where it's less than the best of all possible technologies is a demonstration that the claim is false.

BUT THAT WASN'T THE CLAIM.

That's the old political trick that's called "creating a strawman". If you can't win against what your opponent said, pretend your opponent said something else and argue against that even though it isn't what they ever said.

Mike,

The claim is that OLED is a great technology for mobile devices.

Given the fact that is does not work well outside, I am arguing that it is therefore, NOT a great technology for mobile devices.  People use their mobile devices outside quite frequently.  For example, I take pictures with my iphone outside. Would an OLED screen be great for doing that?  I don't think so.  Kind of hard to get nice pictures if you can't see what you are shooting.Check out the Engadet review & picture listed above.  

In order to show that the original claim is true, I would need to explain what it is that makes it not a great technology. That is exactly what I have done, time and time again. I am not creating a strawman.  I am not arguing off topic. I am giving a real world, common usage scenario, showing that OLED, right now, is not a great technology for mobile devices.  

Paul made the claim it was Superior Technology. I am rebuking his claim. Which I have, showing it is inferior in many common situations.

Once again, I think the Zune HD looks like a quality product with nice features.  But the truth is Paul did not debunk the myths.  

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