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I could name a few additional weaknesses in the Zune, Paul....

If you do the math it comes out to be 40 apps per person, that's not too horrible, right?  (2,000,000,000 apps for 50,000,000 iPhones or iPod Touches).  Actually that seems pretty astonishing since the average person probably doesn't even install that many apps on their personal computer.  I don't even think I currently have 40 apps on my PC right now (not including default programs).

I wonder how many of those are flashlights apps, or some variation?

Also, if you want to do pure math, each app would have been downloaded an average of 23,529 times or so.  (2,000,000,000 apps downloaded and 85,000 available apps).  Granted some have probably only been downloaded a couple of times, while others have been downloaded more.

Very interesting.

You might have noticed that the market cap for Apple keeps going up and up and should surpass Microsoft within the next 12 months.  Psychologically that will be very hard for Microsoft.

@Logjamming

Sure, as I could say the same about the iPod, or any MP3 player for that matter.  However, when you sell a product that is only available in select markets, while your competition is available throughout the world, this becomes a very big weakness.  Perhaps, the single greatest weakness of the product.

No matter how good (or bad) a particular product is, if it's not available to a certain clientele, they will more than likely not buy it, right?  Therefore, this will affect the overall marketshare of that particular product.

Queue comments on how many of those are fart apps and tip calculators...

Anyways you slice it... pwnage.

(sits back and waits for the predictable comments).

I don't understand why Microsoft should be worried about anything other than the Mac platform. Who at MS really cares if Apple turns into nothing more than a iPod/iPhone company as long as their computer systems remain with a less than 10% market share? If it wasn't for the iPod/iPhone, Apple would have faded out long ago. So they make nice toys...who really cares?  It's the computer market that really matters and Apple can't compete there no matter what their ads say.

@Dude1313

Or the ever increasingly popular Flashlight app. :)

I think the low pricing of the apps is still very interesting.

My daughter needed a graphing calculator for her advanced math classes, and the school recommends a $100+ Texas Instruments model.

She found a solid graphing calculator in the App Store for $4.99, and it does everything she needs.

So that saved me about $100.

Great for the consumer today but how does a company like TI compete?

On a related, but semi-off topic note, the new comer, Palm Pre, looks to have a strong app community as well. But, just like the iPod/iPhone apps...many of them are useless, and a large number of them are as upgrads or enhancements are added and the app is re-downloaded. Keep in mind, though...Palm supports this "side loading" method and actually allows beta testing.

www.precentral.net/precentral-homebrew-gallery-passes-2-million-downloads

--tayme

@techman

I completely agree.  After-all Microsoft's core business is towards businesses.  Multimedia (such as the Zune and even the Xbox 360 for that matter) is just a secondary source of income (at best).  This is like comparing Microsoft's server side of its business to Apple's.  Guess what, Microsoft is completely dominating Apple in this market.  Does Apple care?  Probably not a whole lot.  So, who really cares if Apple's beating Microsoft in the MP3 market?  Microsoft probably cares a little bit, but really?  I don't think so.

@chipwinter

Most (if not all) of my instructers (at the college level, anyway) don't allow iPhones or iPods (or similar devices) to be used in lieu of actual calculators because the students could easily switch from the calculator to their notes and cheat on tests (although you can also do this on a TI-83 or 84 very easily).

Still, that's pretty cool, I remember spending well over a $100 for a TI-89 for my Calc classes.  So $4.99 seems like an amazing deal.

"Most (if not all) of my instructers (at the college level, anyway) don't allow iPhones or iPods (or similar devices) to be used in lieu of actual calculators because the students could easily switch from the calculator to their notes and cheat on tests (although you can also do this on a TI-83 or 84 very easily)."

I remember playing Space Invaders on my TI-85 during some of those particularly boring lectures.  The data cables for those were just stupid expensive too.

"So, who really cares if Apple's beating Microsoft in the MP3 market?  Microsoft probably cares a little bit, but really?  I don't think so."

Microsoft is primarily a software company.  Their hardware business is quite small.  The Zune service is where their future lies.  If they can deliver in Windows 8, an international media service, replacing Media Center and Media Player on PC's with Zune software in a unifying platform, I'm all for that.

When they started taking out certain accessory programs in Windows Vista with the move to Windows 7 and the reliance on Windows Live, made by a different team, you can see that the segregated approach moves a lot more rapidly, and even though they're separated, it works together in a much more harmonious manner than having applications integrated with other library components in the OS and never updated.

This is somewhat related:

blogs.zdnet.com/Bott

I'm sure the Zune HD will be available in other countries eventually.

From what I understand, the hard part is getting all the licensing agreements in place for on-line music sales.  Sometimes these seem to take forever. Apple had a 5 year head start.

Just look at all the lawsuits (Eminem, composers, etc.) all going after Apple for a piece of the action, even though, Apple supposedly has the rights to sell songs.

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Waethorn, if the Zune software platform is more important than the Zune hardware, and I'm not disagreeing with you on that, why don't MS simply make it compatible with the iPod and see how many podheads decide to switch services? I really don't see the Zune HD making any significant inroads in the player area, but if MS allows Windows to be run on a Mac, then turnabout is fair play. It would be interesting to see how Apple would react...maybe they would block such access and then we'd see what legal repercussions would result from such a blockage.

In any event, I'm sure that MS is happier to see Apple spend their resources on MP3 players than on what really matters...computers and operating systems.

>>Nearly 70 of the top 100 paid applications at Apple's App Store are games.<<

From a review of the Zune HD thats extremely positive:

>>It's simply unconscionable -- or worse, incompetence -- that Microsoft, the developer of Xbox 360, launched Zune HD without a marketplace of games. What? Microsoft has no arcade games that it could port from Xbox 360 to Zune HD?<<

www.betanews.com/.../1254080457

@Avro

Microsoft's market cap is 66 billion dollars greater than Apple's on significantly greater numbers of shares. They are very different stocks.

Further, Microsoft pays dividends to shareholders; Apple does not. Microsoft also offers favorable stock buy-backs at very favorable rates, which rewards shareholders - again, they are very different stocks.

Finally, look carefully at the forward PE vice PE for each company. Microsoft's stock price is undervalued; Apple's is not. With so much good stuff shipping from Microsoft this year and next and given the very real differences in the companies and their stocks, their respective market caps alone do not lend themselves well to a direct comparison.

"If you do the math it comes out to be 40 apps per person, that's not too horrible, right?

"I don't even think I currently have 40 apps on my PC right now (not including default programs)."

That's the whole thing here... it's so easy and so much fun to try and install new apps on iPhones/iTouches that it's like a hobby ! There are so many great (and useless too) free and cheap apps that the volume largely makes up for the price. And that's a great thing for iPhone users too; there are so many downloads that the app price can remain very low. I was lately reading an article comparing the prices of equivalent games on DS and Iphone/Touch: around $29 on the DS, and $5 on the Iphone/Touch... That's a great virtuous circle.

Also the iPhone/Touch has has reinvigorated a game genre that had almost disappeared since the death of the Gameboy: the casual but fun and addictive game ( a la Tetris): 2 great examples:

- 7 cities

- Doodle jump

The iPhone/Touch is turning quickly into a major handheld game platform thanks to its easy game distribution model and cheap prices. Any teen can afford to buy 2-3 games a month.

On a comic note: remember how the Anti-Apple crowd was lashing Apple when they announced that they were finally opening up the app development and that for that devs would have to use Apple central store to distribute their softs ?? Some many people shouted heresy, how unacceptable it was ...!!! And now who wants to copy the model ???

daveinla

If it is such a good model, why is it that Apple hasn't done the same thing for all Macintosh apps?

After all, it would be trivial for them to add a lock on all new copies of OS X that blocked all software sold by anyone but them. Everything else is already in place and would be trivial to modify for Mac.

@mikegalos@msn.com,

This would not be much different than the package manager used for Ubuntu Linux, and other distros - where yeah... it is possible to install something new and get it into the package manager, but not without significant effort that precious few end lay users would dare attempt. Not saying that getting items approved for the package manager is all that tough on a dev, but again, not something most lay end users would try.

Apple could do something very similar with OS X - not that ISV's and end users would be very happy about it.

About the only good thing I can say about the model is that it makes for one very secure OS - after all.... nothing may be installed outside of the package manager - not at least without a great deal of effort.

Finally, if they did go this route, it would kill the drap and drop to /apps that has been used in many cases.

Not bloodly likely to happen for a lot of reasons.

Now... Google's Chroms OS? That's another matter - it will very likely have a tightly controlled manager - so much for choice!

My dear Mike, because Macs are used for productivity also (even if you don't believe it) and most soft publisher would rather keep the current system that allow them more flexible pricing and that don't keep them tied to 1 distributor... Imagine your dear MS bending in front of Apple to ask them to distribute exclusively MS Office via one of the Store ??? :DD

That's a good model for people who want to get simple and cheap soft on the move for handheld devices. That said MS could sell a version of Office for iPhone OS on the store !

“There’s no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share, no chance."

- Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer, during an interview with USA Today.

"The Zune service is where their future lies."

Anyone who cares about Microsoft would hope you're wrong, Waethorn. But since you usually are, I'm sure we have nothing to worry about.

Lol Mike could not help himself.  I mean we know he does not own any Apple products (that he admits to) so why should he even comment.

The success of the iPhone/iTouch/App store is fraking huge and there is just no denying it.

@gadfly10

That is because so many assumed it was a phone play and not something much larger - a true hand held computer that was also a phone and a great PMP.

Where conceptually, the UMPC under Microsoft Origami Project suggested what was possible (not that Apple itself hand not had earlier failed attempts in this space (Newton)), Apple hit on an unrecognized thread and it took off. Now... as a percentage of phones sold, Ballmer is quite correct - same is true of business mobile phones - against the world-wide market, iPhone is not that big a player at all. Among smarter phones sold, it is doing extremely well, but will meet with increasing competition that may, or may not evolve any single product that does as well on its own. As a category, it will do less well against increasingly stiff competition.

Regardless, no one, perhaps not even Apple, recognized the full potential in the iPhone and one has to give a great deal of credit to their work and how they have continually extended the platform around it. It's been amazing to watch its rise and how it has driven so many others to deliver their own powerful hand held computers that are also phones.

"I'm sure the Zune HD will be available in other countries eventually."

I wouldn't count on that.  For the reason that you mentioned after - international licensing rights - and the fact that the Zune HD may be the last or second-last hardware product by the Zune team before the platform goes wide open as the defacto Windows media consumption service, I'd say that it would make business sense if Microsoft didn't bother, although I know I wouldn't like it if that were the way it happened.

"why don't MS simply make it compatible with the iPod and see how many podheads decide to switch services?"

Two reasons mostly:

a)  They have a good quantity of Windows Mobile products already on the market, and they'll have Windows Mobile 7 available later as well.  It's like if the iPhone were designed to everybody's taste.

b)  Apple.  Will Apple allow them to support the iPod on Zune services?  What kind of costs would be associated in licensing Apple iPod communications IP?

"Anyone who cares about Microsoft would hope you're wrong, Waethorn. But since you usually are, I'm sure we have nothing to worry about."

And once again, you've completely taken that out of context.  It's a wonder you have so much room in your mouth for your foot....

As I was saying, the Zune HARDWARE is not the future of Zune; it's the service.  Windows Live is a shining example of services that work, that are complementary to Windows, and that's what Zune will be - complementary to the Windows ecosystem.

daveinla

Are you saying that nobody does any productivity work on iPhone and never will?

If that isn't what you're saying, then what is the reason for "all apps must only be sold through Apple" being good for one platform and bad for the other?

(Aside from the obvious Mac Fan's reply of "If Apple says it's good, it's good. If Apple says it's bad, it's bad")

@ Mikegalos

Who was talking about the Mac? Why not answer daveinla's question? "Who now wants to copy Apple's App Store model?" Hmm. How about MSFT, Nokia, RIMM, Motorola and Palm for starters? Geez, MSFT would kill to have an iPhone/iPod Touch/iTunes/App Store money-making juggernaut. The bigger questions is, why didn't MSFT think of it? Well, because they wanted the same, tired model for phones that they have for computers: 1000 different kinds of crap phones running the same software.  Must be fun for programmers/manufacturers having to tweak apps for hundreds of different phones.

Instead, how about one or two great, similar devices to write for? Pretty simple, but not so in MSFTland. And get this: Apple gets to pull in billions of dollars in profits! See? Make a great product people want, and you can actually make a lot of money. What a concept! MSFT should try it.

I have to laugh when I see Windows zealots belittle Apple and the iPhone. Go ahead. It's really humorous.

"I remember playing Space Invaders on my TI-85 during some of those particularly boring lectures.  The data cables for those were just stupid expensive too."

Same here.  That was probably one of my most favorite games for that calculator.

Mine came with a data cable, however.  So I've never really looked at the cost of them.  I can only imagine how expensive they must be.

"If it is such a good model, why is it that Apple hasn't done the same thing for all Macintosh apps?"

Maybe because it's a different platform with different users.

Both seem to work, look at the money coming in (as opposed to say, marketshare).

Let's review: 85,000 apps available to the more than 50 million iPhone and iPod touch customers worldwide with over 125,000 developers in Apple’s iPhone Developer Program in 77 countries and two billion App Store downloads.

MSFT shareholders: "Hey, MSFT?! What's gonna be your response to Apple's iPhone? Where is WinMo 7? Where's the Zune phone? WHAT IS GOING ON IN REDMOND?!"

MSFT: "Just a minute...just a minute."

*crickets*

"Mine came with a data cable, however.  So I've never really looked at the cost of them.  I can only imagine how expensive they must be."

Mine only came with a "pairing" cable that allowed you to connect to another one.  That's how students ended up spreading games.  The data cable was like $70 for a 9-pin serial cable to connect to the funky 1/10th" phono port that they used.

I don't have mine anymore though.  Stuck it in a closet and the batteries leaked out so I threw it away.  Dunno why a student wouldn't just use their laptop with a nice graphing calculator application now anyway.

"Apple gets to pull in billions of dollars in profits! See? Make a great product people want, and you can actually make a lot of money."

If you're in the computer business only to make money, your market can dry up overnight.  There was another company like that - NeXT.  Maybe you've heard of them?

Waethorn: "If you're in the computer business only to make money, your market can dry up overnight"

What? Why the hell else would you be in the computer business?

Well Mike if you want to play dumb when it arranges you, whatever...

The very smart thing from Apple was also to create an iPod touch when they saw they created the best media player out there with the iPhone. 2 devices with the same OS and the same great user experience, but one of them devoted to music/video and games that what sparked the store also...

"Where is WinMo 7?"

Look at where we are with mobile processors right now.  We have mobile platforms running on 700+MHz CPU's.  Most are ARM-based.  Intel is working on shrinking the Atom, and AMD has their Geode platform.

If Windows Mobile 7 is supposed to come out in a year, what will CPU's be like by then?

I'm guessing we'll have 1GHz platform processors by then.  Wouldn't it be something if Windows Mobile 7 was actually just a modified version of Windows 7 Embedded?

"What? Why the hell else would you be in the computer business?"

There's no such thing as stupid questions, but the people that ask them, well....you know how that goes.

Maybe because it's something that you enjoy, and you appreciate the feeling of relaying to someone the benefits of your work towards their everyday life.

You know, the same reason why most people like to choose their own career.

" if you want to play dumb when it arranges you, whatever..."

Ummm.  What?

"If that isn't what you're saying, then what is the reason for "all apps must only be sold through Apple" being good for one platform and bad for the other?"

How amusing, since all Zune apps come from a single source (Microsoft), are generally lame, apparently take forever to load, and feature advertising.

arstechnica.com/.../zune-hd-apps-are-here-complete-with-pre-roll-ads.ars

Exciting. *yawn*

Wae, sorry i meant "when it's convenient for you..."

one of these French-English traps... ;-)

lotsa, WTLW.  Our resident trolls already covered that.

FWIW, I received an iPod Touch for free, and I've been using it.  It's a nice device, and like Paul feels about the iPhone, some things are great, other things not so much.  I have myself downloaded a lot of apps to the thing, all free.  I've also removed about 25% of them, and in all reality could easily remove more, since most of them are not that great.  The star ratings for each of these apps also seem to back that up.

I also wonder if they include updates in that 2 billion figure?

"Then came the muted introduction of Apple's lackluster late 2009 iPods and bloated iTunes software. But the hardest hit, possibly, happened last week with the release of Microsoft's near-perfect Zune HD and Zune 4.0 software and services. Sure, the Zune has only 1.1 percent market share, allegedly."

Yep, with 2 Billion apps downloaded, the iPods are lame and the Touch has no chance, absolutely no chance against that rocking Zune.

The emphasis Paul makes here on the 77 countries is important, but the real difference is the app store.

And, yes Paul, the Zune really has 1.1% marketshare. You have no problem with marketshare statistics when the topic is desktop computers, so eat your own dogfood.

"The Zune HD offers nothing compelling around the iPod touch's application and gaming capabilities, so if this is a big concern for you, feel free to head on over to your local Apple Store and go nuts. But if you're into this for the music, videos, and other content, what Microsoft has accomplished here is impressive."

The  Zune is a nicely done mp3/video player, about 3 years to late into a market that is saturating and rapidly evolving into something totally different. What's left of the mp3/video player market is now heading downscale in price, while the Zune HD comes in with a price at the top of that category.

On the other had, the iPod Touch is rapidly becoming "the iPhone without ATT", clearly distinct from all the other players in the mp3/video market, because of the app store.

Microsoft needs to do something very soon to converge WinMobile and Zune into one thing. Their mobile strategy is simply a mess.

@Waethorn

"Maybe because it's something that you enjoy, and you appreciate the feeling of relaying to someone the benefits of your work towards their everyday life."

Pure comedy gold!

Factoid:

Microsoft revenue for fiscal 2009 $ 58,237 billion dollars. (That's a million dollars every nine minutes)

"one of these French-English traps... ;-)"

Ah yes, as in the term "arrangement", similar to "agreement" or "appointment".

"I have myself downloaded a lot of apps to the thing, all free.  I've also removed about 25% of them, and in all reality could easily remove more, since most of them are not that great. "

How many of the top 100 paid apps have you tried?

What is it with Apple zealots that they always seem to insist that MS absolutely has to compete in the mp3/phone arena? That isn't their primary business, computer software and operating systems is. Anything else is a sideline or is designed to complement their primary business. Apple was once supposed to be primarily a computer related company also but has since become primarily an iPod/iPhone company.

The difference between the two companies is that whether the Zune is a success or not, it really won't make that much of a difference to MS whereas if the iPod/iPhone business were to go bust, Apple would soon follow.

Personally I have no need or desire to own any portable device like the Zune, iPod or iPhone and never will. But for those who do, buy the one you like best and let others do the same.

@SPiotr:

Do you think Bill Gates was thinking about that when he started programming?

Do you think Woz was thinking about that when he started the Homebrew Computer Club?

@SPiotr:

You can credit Microsoft for bringing computers to mass market too.

"I also wonder if they include updates in that 2 billion figure?'"

I think that's called the "Firefox Model". Every point upgrade that gets pushed out counts.

@Waethorn: Factoid: "Windows Live brought in $520 million in revenue, mostly from advertising, but lost $560 million total for the year."  

www.internetnews.com/.../3840476

Waethorn:

"Maybe because it's something that you enjoy, and you appreciate the feeling of relaying to someone the benefits of your work towards their everyday life.

You know, the same reason why most people like to choose their own career."

Oh yeah. I forgot about people that run their own Mom and Pop computer stores.

Mike,

"If it is such a good model, why is it that Apple hasn't done the same thing for all Macintosh apps?

After all, it would be trivial for them to add a lock on all new copies of OS X that blocked all software sold by anyone but them. Everything else is already in place and would be trivial to modify for Mac."

You do raise an interesting question.

I think the problem is that the "genie is already out of the bottle" on that one.

That model works for the iPhone as it was that way from the beginning. Its kind of hard to try and enforce such a model 8 years after the fact, when all existing versions of OS X and software don't support such a distribution method.

" Factoid: "Windows Live brought in $520 million in revenue, mostly from advertising, but lost $560 million total for the year."  "

Losing 40 million on online services that have the #1 IM client and #1 web mail service doesn't look too bad now does it?  How much does Google make on any of their web services besides ad serving again?

"I forgot about people that run their own Mom and Pop computer stores."

A Mom & Pop computer store that gets better reviews than MDG - the biggest Canadian computer builder, with their primary store not far away from us.

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Loosely related, but this is what I was talking about in a previous article:

video.msn.com/video.aspx

BTW:  What's the deal with this?  MSN Video is still around?  How does this relate to the former Soapbox?

And the Zune is sold in how many countries? hahahahaha

www.youtube.com/watch

Windows for $99

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"How many of the top 100 paid apps have you tried?"

None.  I'm a cheapskate when it comes to certain things, and trying a bunch of 0.99 or 1.99 apps just because it is cheap creeps up on you.  I may download the Bing app that some firm developed for 0.99 though.

"I also wonder if they include updates in that 2 billion figure?" - Dipsh t Admin

Updates are not part of the 2 billion figure. Sorry, no link or source. I remember wondering if updates were included when Apple announced they had reached 1 Billion downloads. At some point I specifically remember Apple announcing that the figure did not include updates but I have no recollection of where I heard it.

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