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I have no doubt it will continue to be high with Windows 7.  

Most people wont remove what they have to install this on current machines.

This will be the choice of free AV solutions going forward which will mean rebuilds or new PC's will get it.

I think its great because I think AV software is such BS in the first order.  It wont stop anything these days.  A stupid user will click OK to whatever and no malware protection will help it that I know of.

Well, so much for

"Security Essentials won't change anything," said Jens Meggers, Symantec's vice president of engineering.

(from Paul's earlier blog post at community.winsupersite.com/.../as-expected-security-software-makers-mock-microsoft-s-free-av.aspx)

"The most astonishing statistic: Fully 44 percent of all MSE downloads are happening in Windows 7. That's amazing, given that Windows 7 isn't even broadly available yet. "

Not really that astonishing, if you ask me.  It just means that the people who are aware of and are downloading MSE are pretty much the same tech-savvy, leading edge types who would be running an unreleased operating system.

Most ordinary folks like, say my Uncle Bud with his 6 year old XP machine, don't know what Windows 7 is, much less Microsoft Security Essentials.

I installed MSE on 2 machines, by the way, replacing AVG Free.  So far so good.

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WebGuy,

On the other hand, you have my cousin who hasn't switched to MSE because she won't give up here OneCare until they finally shut down the service and pry the green oval off her notification area.

You guys and your sappy, family related, emotional anecdotes. They are meaningless.

I was once told something to that effect on this very site.

--tayme

<Just in the first week we saw well over 1.5 million downloads of Microsoft Security Essentials, but the price (free to Windows users) is hard to beat!>

Sure, it's hard to beat. But let's not forget that Windows-users got f-ed in the a big time with Vista prices, new hardware prices and phone bills for numerous calls to customer support because 'my windows isn't working'.

@ Tayme

Don't spoil the Windows 7 launch party feeling in here! These nitwits here are more hilarious than religious fanatics awaiting the return of Jesus.

Oh, and OSX SL beats W7 in most tasks: reviews.cnet.com/8301-31012_7-10319612-10355804.html

Oh, and Windows Mobile 6.5 sucks big time: gizmodo.com/.../windows-mobile-65-review-theres-no-excuse-for-this

You don't read these posts here, because....well, the spoil the Launch party!

tayme

Feel free to only talk about the 1,500,000 downloads in 1 week or the 44% that were for an unreleased version of Windows or th 1/3rd of those that were for 64-bit. All of which are good, useful facts.

(The anecdotes here didn't reinforce or contradict the facts, they were just enhancement)

Betcha this comes true...

"Windows 7’s primary competition is XP. Microsoft really does worry first about raw market share, and XP is the market leader by a long shot. Such comparisons against the Mac are apples-vs.-oranges, though, because Apple isn’t concerned about overall market share. They’re concerned about sales only in the middle-to-high end of the market, and hardware profit share. Apple sells computers, not OS licenses, and their share of the profits in the U.S. computer market is somewhere north of 25 percent.

--

if the idea spreads that Windows 7 is a good release it’ll trigger an avalanche of upgrades from XP. That’s really the best case situation for Microsoft, and I think it’s entirely plausible.

--

Microsoft is selling licenses to an OS, the majority of them for low-end PC hardware. Apple is selling computer hardware, none of which is in the low-end market.

So it’s entirely possible that Windows 7 will be good for both Microsoft and Apple. The Mac can continue to gain a few percentage points per year in the higher-profit premium range of the market, while at the same time Windows 7 could grab a majority share of the overall market, mainly at the low-cost high-unit-sale end of the market."

daringfireball.net/.../microsofts_competition_for_windows_7

@mikegalos - I find it awesome that MSE is successful. It should be, it is a great product, though I prefer Live OneCare, myself. I have installed MSE on 2 rebuilds that I have done in the last week and it is all it is advertised to be...lightweight and efficient.

I do, however, find it odd that you seem to have a double standard when it comes to people posting things here. You have criticized them for some of the same things that you then go on to do yourself...much like the current U.S. President does. It must be a liberal thing to be that smug.

--tayme

Oh, and mikegalos - Why do you seem to be compelled to tell me what I should talk *only* about, anyway? Another trait that you liberals seem to hold dear.

--tayme

tayme

Since you seem to have a reading comprehension problem the difference is this:

BAD

-----------

<fact x> can't be true because I know somebody that...

<fact x> must be true because I know somebody that...

GOOD

-----------

As an example of when <fact x> is true, I know somebody that...

As an example of when <fact x> isn't true, I know somebody that...

You see, the difference is that you don't get that anecdotes can provide examples but not guarantee the truth or fallacy of a fact.

"Another trait that you liberals seem to hold dear."

Here are a couple of examples for you:

GOOD

I know a conservative idiot whose posts demonstrate he can't follow a logical discussion and so the claim that some conservatives are idiots seems to have some merit

BAD

I know a conservative idiot whose posts demonstrate he can't follow a logical discussion therefore all conservatives are idiots.

The latter uses an anecdote to "prove" an assertion that it can't make based on just the anecdote. It doesn't mean the assertion is true or false, just that claiming the anecdote offers proof is incorrect.

Bloomberg reviews win7

“How good is Windows 7? It still isn’t nearly as elegant or intuitive as Snow Leopard, the current version of Apple Inc.’s Mac operating system. The upgrade path for XP users is ugly, and any endorsement must be tempered by the knowledge that even Vista didn’t seem so bad when it was first released.”  www.bloomberg.com/.../news

[Quote] tayme: Oh, and mikegalos - Why do you seem to be compelled to tell me what I should talk *only* about, anyway? Another trait that you liberals seem to hold dear. [Quote]

Liberal???  http://is.gd/4mQwl Mike is a corporate radical right wing propagandist.

Very good, migegalos. You have impressed many with your logic today.

Now, can you tell me how the anecdote that I was speaking of was an attempt by me to show that <fact x> was guaranteed to be true or false?

If not, then your anecdotal rambling is another example of not only what you call BAD, but also a lie, since I am guessing that you, in fact, do not *know* this *conservative idiot* at all.

--tayme

"Mike is a corporate radical right wing propagandist"

You obviously haven't been here very long to make that statement.  However, it just enforces that you don't have any clue as to what you are talking about.

Liberal or conservative, one thing we can all agree on is that RJ, Balthazar9 and Logjamming are trolls of the highest order.

Wow. I guess after all these years I must be a moderate. The Mac people think I'm too liberal and the Linux person thinks I'm a radical right-winger.

I guess that means:

Mac users are on the far right

Windows users are in the middle

Linux users are on the far left

Not what I'd have guessed but that's what happens when you trust anecdotal info rather than getting the facts.

tayme

Feel free to point out the discussion from months ago that you're talking about.

Oops..."migegalos" = "mikegalos"...pardon the typo on this *conservative idiot's* part. Lots of punctuation errors, too. Good thing it's Friday! Happy weekend, everybody!

--tayme

I am not a Windows, Mac, or Linux *person*. I am not blinded by brand loyalty, like mikegalos seems to be. I use what gets the job done for me...or what I prefer to use to get the job done for me.

--tayme

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@mikegalos - No thanks. I just happened to remember the discussion and don't feel compelled to go back and dig it up. You are free to do so, if you feel it is important. I have better things to do this weekend...real life things...with my real life family. But, I guess that emotion driven things like that mean nothing to you...which is fine. Be who you want.

--tayme

tayme

And likewise I'm the one who keeps wishing Apple would be innovative again as they were in 1982-3 or so and that the people wasting time and brains pasting bags on an ancient *ix architecture would step up and push technology forward rather than cloning yet another feature they didn't create.

Guess that makes me an Apple and *ix fan since both of those could be read as wanting them to push harder against Microsoft. The reality is that I'm a big advocate of innovation no matter who does it. (It just seems painfully rare from Apple and *ix these days)

tayme

I'm not the one who brought it up. I think I summarized my views on facts versus anecdotal stories well enough on this thread.

"Linux person"

I use all three platforms. In fact I have far more M$ machines in my house than any other. Largely due to Win7’s complexity it took me one weekend to crack.

I needed a week to crack win-xp. Ironic, the more elaborate and entangled the code; the easier it is to break.

Separately, what is it with Micro$haft and ALL their kiddy commercials. Are there a bevy of pedophiles at M$?

Microsoft should make a version of MSE for Mac :) That way those stupid Mac fanboys will have some protection when someone  decides to create a virus for the whole 9% of Mac users.

I just want to know if Mike's cousin will admit that she is his cousin in public?  I am going to say NOPE.

Mike you pedal that "Unix is old" crap so much, hoping people will believe it.  No one does.

As far as innovation, the vast majority of tech news coverage would disagree with you especially when it comes to Apple vs Microsoft.  I would say Microsoft copies 80% of the time, and Apple innovates 80% of the time.  

Is Balmer your cousin as well?  He was the one that said no one would buy the iPhone....hahahaha that was funny.

crankenstein

"Microsoft should make a version of MSE for Mac "

No need. Apple isn't stupid enough to think Mac viruses aren't possible so they bundled an AntiVirus with Snow Leopard.

MSE would be great for a Mac.  That way when Mac users could not pass along to an infected Word file or whatever to PC users.  It has happened in the past.  Mac users were not hurt but the PC users were.

@mikegalos - "I'm not the one who brought it up."

Yet, you assumed that what I was speaking of involved you and that I was incorrectly using an anecdote to guarantee that something was true or false? Then, went on to have the peanuts to tell me to *only* talk about something? Wow...just wow! Do you not see the problem with your pompousness? I truly hope that in real life you are different.

--tayme

"Apple isn't stupid enough to think Mac viruses aren't possible so they bundled an AntiVirus with Snow Leopard." Incorrect. This is a common courtesy to Win user as more Mac/Win machines are networked.

This weeks Leo/Steve Gibson podcast discuss all them there patches for blindows. Including breaking of hosts files while installing security essentials. For the ignorant the best way to block all ads is through a custom hosts files.

Additionaly, David Perry of Trendmicro discusses why you should NEVER do online banking on a blindows machine. archive.wbai.org/.../091014_200001pcs.MP3

MSE is working for me so far on XP. I hope they build this in to Windows 7 SP1.

"For the ignorant the best way to block all ads is through a custom hosts files."

That should read, "For those who don't love constantly tweaking Unixoid TCP/IP management text files the best way to break your network is through a custom hosts files."

The rest of have used modern protocols (like DHCP) for years now and ignore tweaking the annoyingly cryptic and fragile "hosts" text file.

But, hey, have fun twiddling your insecure, fragile, network setup.

MikeGalos,

Just curious...

Which company was able to take multi-touch and put it in the hands of millions of consumers?  Microsoft or Apple?

I think everyone here knows the answer.

rr0de

"I would say Microsoft copies 80% of the time, and Apple innovates 80% of the time.  "

Yes. You would say that. And only in your mind does that have any bearing on it being true.

But, feel free to tell us all those great OS innovations Apple has given the industry in, say, the last 20 years, (I'll grant that there were some real innovations in Lisa and the Laserwriter printer) It shouldn't be hard since you're effectively saying that 80% of the difference between System 7 and OS X 10.6 were "Apple innovations" and not copied from other places.

panache

So you're saying that marketing and sales are what constitute innovation?

It's odd that the one item that came to mind for you was:

* Not in a personal computer but in a consumer device

* Shown by many other groups for longer than Apple has been in existance and released by other long before iPhone

* An example of technology that Apple bought and didn't actually invent

panache1023  said: "Just curious...

Which company was able to take multi-touch and put it in the hands of millions of consumers?  Microsoft or Apple?

I think everyone here knows the answer."

hmmm ... Lets see... this sentence is not exactly formulated ...

We should read : "Which company was able to *steal* multi-touch and put it in the hands of millions of consumers?

mikegalos@msn.com  said:"Yes. You would say that. And only in your mind does that have any bearing on it being true.

But, feel free to tell us all those great OS innovations Apple has given the industry in, say, the last 20 years, (I'll grant that there were some real innovations in Lisa and the Laserwriter printer) It shouldn't be hard since you're effectively saying that 80% of the difference between System 7 and OS X 10.6 were "Apple innovations" and not copied from other places."

Mike, you are so damn right!!!

See Mike, now you are changing the topic,

You said INNOVATE.

you didn't say OS innovation until after my remark.

And now you want to downplay it because they didn't INVENT it.

What did MS invent that was so innovative that you keep referring to?

Inventing != innovating.

EricoF3,

Inventing != Innovating

The innovation was taking a technology that not a lot of people were aware of, and putting it into a device that people wanted and actually made using that device easier.

The fact that you guys now argue that Apple didn't INVENT it so it was INNOVATIVE is just proof that you can't stand the fact that Apple has innovated in areas MS hasn't.

And why does this even bother you is a bigger question

Mike,

You claim that multi-touch iphone doesn't count as innovation because Apple didn't invent multi-touch, but then say there were real innovations in the Lisa...when the primary appeal of the Lisa was its GUI, which also was not invented by Apple.

hey, I love the trolls that call out the other trolls for trolling out here...  but no one should feel entitled to righteous indignation here.  I mean, look at what Thurrott himself does.  He's King Troll.

panache1023  said: "Inventing != Innovating"

Yes you are right... So stop telling that Microsoft always steal idees of others (*Apple*) ... They only talk idees that don't work an they do something usfull so they Inovate... Isn't it?

EricoF3,

I never said that MS steals ideas from others.

I said that Mike's proclamation (and your too since you said you agree) is that Apple doesn't innovate.

I am showing examples otherwise.

I also didn't say that MS does not innovate.

You are attributing comments others made to me, and then arguing that I am wrong.....even though I never said those things.

Once again, you have nothing to back up the accusation so you argue against a strawman...

well done

@gfryesc1: please... Go play in traffic...

panache

You are right that Apple DIDN'T invent the GUI. Of course I also didn't claim that they did. That honor goes to a combination of people including Doug Engelbart and the Xerox PARC team going back over a decade before Lisa.

But Lisa had a lot of innovations in GUI design. Including some that, unfortunately, didn't make it over to the "do it on the cheap" version of Lisa called Macintosh.

@panache1023: Another thing that explain why Apple des not inovate buy introducing multi-touch in the IPhone and ITouch it is because Microsoft present this technology in Surface first...

So this is an inovation from Microsoft not Apple...

FYI..

a definition of "Innovate"

–verb (used without object)

1. to introduce something new; make changes in anything established.

–verb (used with object)

2. to introduce (something new) for or as if for the first time: to innovate a computer operating system.

3. Archaic. to alter.

Clearly, bringing multi-touch to the masses was innovative.  Clearly, bring an OS that most people find too "techno-geeky" to millions of people is innovative.  Notice that no where does it say that INVENTING is part of innovating.

galos - is there anything that Apple does well?

The love of everything Microsoft is odd. I can and do appreciate several platforms (Windows, Mac, *BSD, etc.). You act like Microsoft is the answer for everything. It isn't - seriously.

Sure, Apple f*cks up.. Microsoft does too. Everyone does. But, they both have their good points. Ask - Paul. He tried to get rid of his iPhone MONTHS ago but wasn't able to.. he is still using it. He is the "King of All" Microsoft fans.

EricoF3,

Once again...how many people here own a Surface?  (probalby zero since it is not targeted at consumers)

How many Surface units have been sold vs iphone / ipod touch?

How many people in the world have actually *used* a Surface vs ipod touch / iphone?

I have used Surface at a Casino in Atlantic City....it has potential, but to compare its use to ipod touch / iphone is a joke

I think Microsoft have the right strategy, keeping services like this out of the Windows installation but freely available. Means no one can accuse them of pushing anything onto users.

By the way MSE is the best personal PC security tool I have ever used. Fantastic job Microsoft. I'm going to recommend it to everyone I know, and see the smiles on their faces when they get rid of Crapton Crappyvirus and realise their PC boots twice as fast.

CompactDS -

I hope they include this in WIN7 SP1. It is good stuff. Screw Symantec, McAfee, etc. They've been overcharging us for years. I just hope MSE stays free and is a step ahead of the competition ( as far as detection/removal).

"And I have to admit, I'm surprised it's not higher."

I'm surprised it's not much higher either. What with so many millions of infected Windows machines, or possible virus Windows OS hosts.

MSE and WLE are two downloads that will be the two first installs on my new Windows 7 PC (when I buy one). I only wish MS would include MSE in WLE, but I'm not holding my breathe on that one.

"Sneaky Microsoft plug-in puts Firefox users at risk"

www.computerworld.com/.../Sneaky_Microsoft_plug_in_puts_Firefox_users_at_risk

Microsoft, writing insecure, buggy and inferior software, like always.  No wonder their OS is just as bad.

panache

The definition you posted is a perfect example of why Apple's taking multi-touch mass-market is NOT innovation by that very definition. It was not something "new" nor was it a change to something existing. Multitouch had been around for years.

Secondly, if we were to use your definition that "if they make it popular it's their innovation no matter who did it first" then Microsoft, with 90+% of the personal computer market has virtually ALL the innovation in computing. I suspect you don't think that's a good redefinition in that case. So, shall we stick with the definition that's both in the dictionary and in common use?

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@Mike can you do the following in Windows 7 out of the box.....

1. Whole OS spell check?

2. Mount or create an ISO

3. Print to PDF

4. Not run AV software

5. Create encrypted files that store documents that can be copied to any thing like thumb drive.

6 Backup and restore like Time Machine does

7. Does it have an email client, calendar program and address book, all of which sync with popular services like Google and Yahoo and MobileMe.

8. Single version that has Windows Ultimate features, that can run in 32bit, 32/64bit, or 64bit modes.

9. A HTML 5 compatible browser.

Sure Windows 7 now has a Dock, and now has a form of Expose, so it is getting better.

Now lets move past the OS to other products like Zune vs iPod or WinMo vs iPhone.  MS App Store vs Apple App store.  Who innovates and who copies??

"The definition you posted is a perfect example of why Apple's taking multi-touch mass-market is NOT innovation by that very definition. It was not something "new" nor was it a change to something existing. Multitouch had been around for years."

No one said Apple invented it.  Apple created a form of touch that innovated they way people use it, they way application are interfaced with.  The massive success of the iPhone has led to what?  Lots of phone makers trying to clone the success of WinMo....NOT.  No you have WebOS, RIM and Android trying to make an iPhone killer.  All of which have fully surpassed WinMO in terms of innovation/features and are trying to catch the iPhone.  Only a total idiot would deny this.

"Which company was able to take multi-touch and put it in the hands of millions of consumers?  Microsoft or Apple?

I think everyone here knows the answer.

"

Easy - Microsoft.

Without Windows, the iPod wouldn't be popular, and Apple would've dried up long ago not having introduced a phone based on that multimedia platform.  

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rr0de

So which of those 7 are you saying are innovations in operating system technology? Which didn't exist prior to Apple creating them?

Are things really so bad in the Apple world now that you count version packaging as "an Apple Innovation"?

That's just sad.

rr0de

"Apple created a form of touch"

Nope. There's the rub. Apple "bought" a form of touch and included it in a product.

Are you next going to claim that Apple invented aluminum? or transparent blue plastic?

Mike MSN Galos' keyboard is smoking.... Must be a slow day at work !

nobody gives a rip who invented what.

There are many non-Windows users using the iPhone.

Face it... MS missed the boat if they invented everything.

Hoo hoo.. they are ripping me off Fred.

Is it possible to remove some background noise by moderating some MSN Galos posts !!?? It's dizzying !!! %-/

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"galos - is there anything that Apple does well?"

yes the Lisa he said it !!! Everything else is crap...

holy crap this blog has gotten out of control =O

OS X Snow Leopard faster than Windows 7.

www.appleinsider.com/.../apples_snow_leopard_bests_windows_7_in_speed_tests.html

Better and faster.

Snow Leopard also has better battery life. "Windows 7, the new Vista." (tm)

All the same positive things were being said about Vista when it came out. Windows 7 (6.1) is another dud. XP forever.

@mikegalos: "Are things really so bad in the Apple world now that you count version packaging as "an Apple Innovation"?"

No. But Microsoft even copied Apple's famous "Designed by Apple in California" when they released the Zune. They copied that idea. So many things go to show how shameless and un-original Microsoft is.

Thanks for responding to your own question Mike...

"But, feel free to tell us all those great OS innovations Apple has given the industry in, say, the last 20 years, (I'll grant that there were some real innovations in Lisa and the Laserwriter printer) It shouldn't be hard since you're effectively saying that 80% of the difference between System 7 and OS X 10.6 were "Apple innovations" and not copied from other places."

I answered you ludicrous question with few answers.  Do you want more?

1. Preview is a great example with no Windows 7 equivalent.  I can view any Office 2007 document with out having office installed and many more.  I dont even install Adobe reader on OS X as preview is faster, lighter and already installed.

2.  Spotlight just so much better than Windows search.

3.  Application installing and removal is drag and drop.

4.  Simple Wifi, something all Vista and 7 users wish they had.

5.  UAC that does not annoy or blank the screen, which on lower powered systems make you think the PC locked.

6.  The ability to format a external drive with FAT 32 larger than 32gig partitions.  You know so you can fill it full of movies and then plug it into your Xbox 360 that CANT read NTFS partitions.

7. Network file copy speeds that blow away Vista/7.

Want more?  Apparently according the CNET comparison today, SL will boot up, shutdown and many other operations faster than Vista...or I mean 7.

@Mike I said "Only a total idiot would deny this."  DING, DING, DING, WE HAVE A WINNER!!!  Thanks for proving my point, my work is done here.

I'm not sure way this story is being peddled as good news.

All the MS shills seem to be overlooking this little fact:

"Computers reporting detections up to October 6: almost four million detections on 535,752 distinct machines. The detections are eight times the machine count because many computers are infected with multiple threats."

If 44% of the downloads of MSE where for Windows 7. It would seem logical to infer a lot of Win 7 users are still getting malware infections.

Not good news at all, if you ask me.

rr0de

That's really sad.

Your NEXT 7 attempts at "Apple Innovation" include one item that's over 20 years old and the rest are things where you like the way Apple did it better rather than anything Apple actually created first.

So your two lists of innovations consist of marketing programs, your opinions on what you like better and one 25 year old item.

Seriously. Even I came up with two items that were too old to qualify.

Sad how the once innovative have fallen when even their fans no longer remember what actual innovation looks like.

EricoF3, now that is some first rate trolling of you, and so extremely clever.  When you first started popping up I thought you were drunk all the time, turns out you're just foreign.  Not a lot of difference really.

Since the weather here is crappy, I had an awesome dinner with the wife and we are just kicking back and relaxing; I thought that I'd see how the conversation here was going.

I am glad to see that if nothing else, mikegalos is consistent...even if it is at being a Pr!ck. mikegalos has tried playing this innovation game before here. Try asking him for a list of Microsoft innovations. He'll refuse and start making rules about what counts and doesn't count at innovation and accuse you of changing hte rules to meet your needs.

My opinion is that Microsoft and Apple both continue to innovate...as does Brocade, Palm, EMC, HDS, Cisco, HP, and nearly all of the big name IT companies. If you guys all want to think that only Apple or only Microsoft are innovation...again, you are simple minded.

--tayme

Wow. Now we've got one idiot saying anyone not American is the equivalent of a drunk and another who, when he can't come up with any innovations from his pet company switches over to personal attacks.

That 0.25% sure are showing their best side today.

Open DNS at www.opendns.com is an excellent way

to filter sites for all users.

Simply create a free account, and set your router up to use their public DNS servers for forward lookups.

You can then add URL's you wish to filter, or block and keep family members off of sites you do not want them to access. It is very easy, effective and simpler than messing with host files and or many routers' built in filtering. Users trying to reach a blocked site get a canned message instead. It keeps teens off of sites you do not want them exposed to.

What I came up with, Windows 7 CANT do out of the box.  They are things that you cant do unless you 3rd part software.  

Little things that people actually use, like print/save in app to PDF.  Or mount a ISO and access it.  Not have to choose from so many version and just get Ultimate.

Innovation is loose term.  My examples are of how Apple innovates the user experience by focusing on the things they use most and getting it right vs having a huge list of things it can do but most users dont use.

MS is not with out its innovations.  Xbox Live is the best Multi-player experience there is in gaming.  Its online communications ability set the bar.  They did not event any of it, I used teamspeak years ago in PC gaming but they took it to the next step like Apple did with the touch interface.  Too bad the 360 is such a hunk of crap.  Exchange is another innovation from Microsoft.  They did not invent email, but it has been the corporate communication application to  emulate and still is.  MS is great at taking an existing idea and standardizing it through its market dominance and mountains of cash.  The 3rd version of most Microsoft products is when they get good.  If the stick with console gaming the Xbox 720 should be a very good piece of hardware.

Open DNS + DynDNS for Dynamic users works very well.

yes!, when mikegalos busts out with straight up name calling, you know he's at the end of his tether.  glad to have helped push him over the edge.

rr0de

So now "innovation" is not "doing something new" as you claimed before but just a marketing term of bundling components that other people already did before?

I suppose next you'll define innovation as anything that comes in a box with a silhouette of a fruit on it because nobody else has a fruit silhouette so therefore anything with one is "an innovation".

Really. Has the company that created Lisa and Laserwriter fallen so far that people really defend utility bundling choices rather than technological innovation?

As I said earlier, I'm the one who "keeps wishing Apple would be innovative again as they were in 1982-3 or so" and your best response is "these utilities are now bundled with OS X but are distributed by 3rd parties with Windows so Apple is a great innovator".

With the bar set that low, it's no wonder that Jobs gave up on computer innovation and switched the company over to packaging consumer electronics and making marketing and distribution deals.

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Man I really do need to stop by more and read this stuff.  Its pure comic relief.

Paul that wrap up reviews of Windows 7 was scary.  Can you put any more Apple hate in it?  Leo called you a Microsoft apologist this week.  I almost spit hot tea on my monitor at work.  Note to self, shut the office door so co-workers wont here you laughing so much when listening to pod casts.

Mikey, brother I feel for you.  You need help in serious way.  You so loathe Apple, I am not sure if you are Paul are more whacked?  Did your mama dump your daddy for the founder of UNIX or something?  The phrase "better living through chemicals" comes to mind when I read your posts.  Sometimes I think you are fake, like the fake SJ.  No one can really be like you in real life can they?

Ikethchum  I have been looking out for all of that Zune HD/WinMo 6.5 app love you spoke so much about.  I hear crickets more than anything.  Oh that and stories of how the whole Winmo, Pink, Sidekick world is coming apart over there at Redmond.  It will interesting to see if you have to eat some humble pie a year from now.

On the Microsoft side of things.  I got to play with Group Policy preferences in Windows 2008 R2 quite a bit this week.  They go a long way to eliminating lots of crapy little vb scripts that glue things together in the corporate world.  Hat is off to MS for a fine job.

Until next time gents, have a great weekend!

www.appleinsider.com/.../freebsd_adds_support_for_snow_leopards_grand_central_dispatch.html

Innovation at work.  I guess that creaky old *nix has a few tricks left in it.  I like the price Apple charged them.

From MS we get free stuff as well, Silverlight, IE, WMA, WMV, XPS, and many other attempts at replacing more popular formats so they can control everything.

rr0de

And if that weren't stuff that had already been in the Windows kernel the Grand Central Dispatch stuff might be innovative.

But, hey, at least, for once, Apple's out ahead of Linux.

On the other hand, being ahead of a group best known for cloning other people's ideas onto a clone of an ancient OS is not exactly a big win for "innovation".

It's a bit like taking the fake Gucci watchband from one street vendor and attaching it to a fake Rolex from another and claiming you're a watchmaker.

Oh and rr0de

If you really do feel like comparing the stuff Microsoft has contributed feel free to go to:

Open Source at Microsoft: www.microsoft.com/opensource

Port 25: The Open Source Community at Microsoft: http://port25.technet.com/

CodePlex - Microsoft's Open Source Hosting Site: http://www.codeplex.com/

After that, feel free to get back to us about who is contributing to public software with some actual knowledge.

"If you guys all want to think that only Apple or only Microsoft are innovation...again, you are simple minded."

This. Fact is, all the companies can pull innovation.

Brand loyalty is sickening. On one side, I see Microsoft zealots. On another, I see robertsjoe and logjamming who are fanatical for Apple.

...Ugh. I feel embarrassed using ANY form of OS when I read posts like these.

Yeah Mike, your first link refers to your second link.  The second link talks about amazing stuff like Microsoft and Redhat certifying each others VM solutions, not giving out code, just saying you can run Windows on a Linux VM server and Linux on a Windows VM server, translations sell more Windows.  The third link is rather slim with some amazing products written in .NET like a Google book downloader.

How about all of the Windows or Office office source code?

www.apple.com/opensource

developer.apple.com/.../index.html

rr0de

Microsoft not only gives out a ton of code under their two certified licences they also have pushed to get their data formats such as docx, pptx, xlsx listed as open international standards that anyone can implement.

For example of a major chunk of very valuable code that Microsoft has made available you might notice the open source Moonlight project which is a public version of Silverlight which was done by Miguel de Icaza's Mono team with help and code from Microsoft.

You might also note that Microsoft was the one who pushed to make .NET a public standard throught ECMA which allowed the Mono team to produce their version.

As for you not being able to find projects on CodePlex, that's probably you not looking very thoroughly. According to the Wikipedia page on it, CodePlex "has accumulated 10,334 projects as of July 23, 2009." I'd say that's a little more than a site that's "rather slim with some amazing products written in .NET like a Google book downloader".

rr0de

Oh, and the thing you refer to as "amazing stuff like Microsoft and Redhat certifying each others VM solutions" really is amazing (I suspect you meant that sarcastically)

What it means is that Microsoft gave Red Hat the details on how to write their driver interfaces to work transparently with Microsoft's Hyper-V architecture so that Red Hat gets the benefits of the VM-Bus hardware virtualization engine that you get with Microsoft's operating systems as clients. That's precisely the kind of interop and data sharing that works for everyone (but is usually kept as a "trade secret" so that only one company benefits)

There are some excellent white papers out there about the process that explain the advantages of the architecture if you're interested.

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<So if you were hoping for a Mac boost for some reason, here's your wake-up call: Windows 7 will make you want to forget whatever Leopard you're currently running. And if you are a Windows user--you know, like most people--the good stuff in Windows 7 and the problems of Snow Leopard combine to make the Mac a heck of a lot less interesting than it already was. So, please, feel free to use the very real cost disadvantage of Mac hardware as an excuse if you want. But Windows 7 is now the best reason to stick with the PC.>

OMFG! You are so pethatic.

Windows marketshare has been dropping year after year. It's been over 95%, now it's below 90%. Browser stuff similar.

Of course it's the biggest, but it's dropping whereas anything else is climbing.

The MS-dinosaur is dying. Especially if it needs wacko bloggers like Paul who can't see past the stuff he writes, but in essence gets paid by a guy named Bill Gates.

You know, the rainman-guy who has been copying other people software and has been accused various times for monopoly, by the US government but also by the EU.

Again, MSCE-certificate holders; Microsoft share of the market is DROPPING DROPPING DROPPING for  years.

And W7 won't stop that, because people will see it for what it really is. A blatantly copied piece of software that comes out later than its rival, is slower than its rival (CNET), and will undoubtedly be what Vista was: a failure.

Oh, and did I mention: copied?

Microsoft: a soon to be extinct dinosaur.

"Without Windows, the iPod wouldn't be popular"

Waethorn, you really need to get out of your WinJihadist camp and take a look around. The iPod was wildly popular before it was introduced for Windows...to the point that hacks were popping up all over the place to allow the original Mac-only device to be used with Windows boxes. To be certain, Apple's wise decision to open it up to a much larger market helped immensely, but the iPod was hardly struggling through obscurity before they did.

I remember Paul pronouncing the iTunes Music Store "dead" when buy.com introduced their pathetic effort. It didn't hurt Apple a bit, even though at the time they had no Windows offering.

Do you go around other boards and try to revise history, "WaeWrong"?

Mike let me pop your bubble about the Red Hat stuff.

Microsoft is not in the driving seat when it comes to VM technology.  VMware owns this space and in a big way.  Typical of Microsoft they will do anything to gain support for Hyper V, while they are behind.  So this iterop with Red Hat is to help Microsoft gain market share.

If MS owned the VM technology space they would give Red Hat the finger.

This is typical of Microsoft, the whole embrace, extend, extinguish.  Basically realize there is an emerging market they are not part of, (the Internet/IE), purchase a player (Connectix), give it away free, work with rivals to gain support for their solution, gain market share, own the market, cut the rivals off at the knees.  This speaks to the innovation factor greatly.

From a purely business viewpoint, its perfectly fine.  Shareholders win.  Consumers dont but eff them right?  Cisco is very good at this as well.  They are very good at not being part of a new segment and just flat out purchasing the leader.  So much so that I have had network equipment from Cisco that has a Cisco sticker over the original etched on vendor name, before Cisco could make new face plates.

rr0de

Perhaps you might want to read about things like VM-Bus and make an actual educated posting rather than spouting tinfoil-hat theories of what you think the world would be like in some alternate universe.

lotsa

So what you're saying is:

* The iPod, which was concieved as the first of an otherwise cancelled set of Mac add-on devices designed to boost flagging Mac sales, needed Windows to succeed

* The customers were going to get Windows compatibility regardless of what Apple wanted

* Apple conceded their strategic plan to boost sales of the Mac platform so they could become a Windows PC peripheral vendor

Sounds like you actually agree with Waethorn's assertion that the iPod only succeeds as a Windows peripheral device.

Pretty good Mike. 25 out of 99 posts, by my count, and nicely bracketing the thread with posts #2 and #99.

Weren't you talking about disproportionately loud posters? Or do you only object to that when they advocate for Apple?

On a serious note.... Can any of the 'Apple Zeolots' please explain to me WHY you guys insist on trolling EVERY Windows based website? You guys are like some fanatic religious cult trying to convert new members. Is this the ONLY thing your Macs are good for? It must be, since that's all we ever see you guys doing with them. Do you realize how bad you make Mac users look?

chuckles

Let's see. If we were being proportionate (and NOT changing the balance for this being WINDOWS Supersite and not MacFan) we should see something like

95 posts by WIndows users

4 posts by rational Mac users who also use Windows

3/4 of a post by a Linux user

1/4 of a post by a LOUD MAC USER

I'd say the last group did more than 1/4 of a post. Don't you agree?

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