SuperSite Blog

So, what hardware did Microsoft release today?

Oh wait, they don't. Apple just released excellent sales numbers and a 27" iMac > HD resolution and quad core processor for less than the price of four Vista Ultimates.

You choose.

FYI:  I've been selling SFF PC's in the Mini-ITX form factor with Intel Core 2 QUAD's for the same money (with 3.5" hard drives ranging up to 1TB - even 2.5" 160GB hard drives are almost non-existant in the channel) for almost a YEAR!

Re: Mac Mini Server

I'm guessing they include OS X Server on DVD.

OH wait... They DO!

LOL!  EPIC FAIL:

www.apple.com/.../server

DDR3-1066 with a Core i5/i7??

WOW!

EPIC SUCK!

No wonder Ballmer is playing down Windows 7.

I remember all the rev3 apple fan boys on TWIT saying that osx server is crap.  I'm surprised they didn't at least offer it with osx regular.

The mouse sounds really cool, but I'm sure it works as bad as the multi touch track pads do in windows.

"No wonder Ballmer is playing down Windows 7."

He doesn't need to play it up.  With hardware prices like this, the Windows PC industry doesn't have any competition to worry about.

Log

The cheapest 27" with a quad core processor is $2000

I don't know where you've been buying Windows Vista licenses for over $500 each but I'm very pleased for them and I'm sure they love your business.

lol Ho apple *fans* you are so funny ...

Up to twice the performance with the quad !! lol Come on Apple...

It looks like Apple has some Microsoft envy going on with all of these announcements lately.

Must be trying to play catch-up with Windows 7, Zune HD, and WinMo 6.5.

Good luck, Apple.

I'll save MSN Galos some typing:

Yaaawwwwn... Apple didn't invent the touchpad nor the ellipse form, therefore they did not innovate with the Magic mouse therefore Apple is just releasing products of Marketing. Nothing interesting here.

Now let's be honest, Apple's marketing is just super overhyped and it always seems like the Apple PR folks are paid by the number of time they use the word thinnest, bestest, and what elsetest.... tiring but hey I guess we have to deal with it ! Plus when you release the sexiest hardware around here, you are entitled to some bragging rights...

"It looks like Apple has some Microsoft envy going on"

:)))))))))))))))))))))

Funniest comment posted on this Blog posted in a long time !!!!!

Well, to answer Log's question in a reasonable way, also announced today (but not getting anywhere near the press of the Apple processor refresh) were the new Alienware (Dell's gaming PC company) Aurora, Aurora ALX, Area 51 and Area 51 ALX machines featuring support for DirectX 11 and Windows 7.

Their Core i7 Quad based systems start at $1300 (for a base Aurora) and go up to the Area 51 ALX which can be configured with multiple graphics cards, factory overclocked processors, liquid cooling, TV tuner , triple displays, 1600MHz DDR, 3TB disk, etc. And, most of that's available as options even on the base Aurora.

You know, flexibility and choice from a high end vendor...

Wow Dave,

Actually, I didn't really think a wireless mouse was exactly earth shattering news worth discussing. Even if it does suport Apple's "intuitive" (one finger click versus two finger click vs three finger click versus single then double finger click versus two finger click and then drag your fingers around, etc) interface.

"Now let's be honest, Apple's marketing is just....<insert Apple apology statement here>"

At least somebody is trying to be honest here when Apple marketing isn't.

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Just out of curiousity, what do people think is the "intuitive" behavior when you move the mouse to the right while dragging your finger to the left?

Should the cursor move right to follow the mouse movement?

Should the cursor move left to follow the trackpad movement?

Should the cursor jiggle back and forth as it tries to follow both movements alternately?

Just curious what people think before they try it and decide that "whatever Apple decided is intuitive is what we think is intuitive"

OK Mike I know you like logic and that you are totally immune and resistant to any concept of design, manufacturing and beauty but hey c'mon you dare comparing this:

www.geeks3d.com/.../alienware-area-51-alx-01.jpg

with this !!!!!!!!!!! :

images.apple.com/.../overview_hero1_20091020.png

Who would dare put the former on its desk or anywhere in sight ???

At least support the comparison better (even if it's not made for gaming at all as are all macs):

images.apple.com/.../design_expansion_hero20090303.png

@mikegalos:

"Well, to answer Log's question in a reasonable way, also announced today (but not getting anywhere near the press of the Apple processor refresh) were the new Alienware (Dell's gaming PC company) Aurora, Aurora ALX, Area 51 and Area 51 ALX machines featuring support for DirectX 11 and Windows 7."

I went and checked these out. I looked at the Aurora and went through the customization. After adding and removing a few components, I pretty much had it equalling the new 27" iMac, and the Aurora was about $15 cheaper.

Then I went to add a 27" monitor (which would have added another $929 to the price) and the site crashed.

Dave

Well, there's no accounting for your taste. But your accountant must have a category for it.

@Mike

"Just out of curiousity, what do people think is the "intuitive" behavior when you move the mouse to the right while dragging your finger to the left?"

It looks like single-finger drag on the surface is only for scrolling, not cursor movement:

www.apple.com/magicmouse

But to answer your hypothetical question hypothetically, there is no "intuitive" response here. You're telling your computer to perform two contradictory actions at the same time, like telling a person, "Turn left and right at the stop sign." You can't expect the behavior to be anything BUT random.

So either way, Apple would be right, just like always! :-)

RunTime

Really? You found an iMac that supports DirectX 11?

Cool. How'd you do that? Friends at Apple offer you a private build?

On a serious note, what were you saying wasn't Apple playing catch-up?

@Daveinla

Yes, yes, we all know that Apple hardware is like the hot cheerleader of the computing world... all looks, no brains. If bimbos are your thing, then more power to you!

But seriously, this time around, their improvements are more catchup on the internal specs, because as with everything they do, the really big improvements are only skin deep.

As for the mouse... so I still have to move the mouse physically to move the cursor, but I can now use multi-touch instead of buttons for clicking and zooming and scrolling... because you know... buttons are for sissies, even though the mouse itself is incredibly awkward to hold. But again, form over function, as stated above.

Paul says: "and in Apple land, "entry level" of course means $600 to $1000, and not $299 as in the PC world."

LOL, by that he means Apple doesn't litter us with low-end-disposable-landfill bound-garbage like the PC world does!

I wonder if Apple's latest successes in selling hardware suggests that they are not overpriced, but rather properly priced?

Maybe Dell and others should consider raising their prices, rather than fighting to underprice the others?

I'll ignore the snarky comments from both sides of the camp and say that this is cool stuff.

As far as I'm concerned, the more that PC makers and Apple challenge each other both with performance and other things, the better it is for us consumers. Plus, the Magic Mouse is something I really want to see. I've yet to see the Multi-Touch functionality, so this sounds really intriguing. Even then, Apple providing something for Multi-Touch is cool stuff.

*GASP* Shocking, I know. I actually like things from both Microsoft and Apple. And I'm doing so without being a snarky troll (Logjamming). For those of you who aren't trolling and actually appreciate both sides, or can be more respectful, then I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

@mikegalos - "Their Core i7 Quad based systems start at $1300 (for a base Aurora) and go up to the Area 51 ALX which can be configured with multiple graphics cards, factory overclocked processors, liquid cooling, TV tuner , triple displays, 1600MHz DDR, 3TB disk, etc. And, most of that's available as options even on the base Aurora."

Now start with that base $1,300 model, add a high end 27" monitor with 1920x1080 resolution, a wireless keyboard and wireless mouse and bump the hard drive up to 1TB like the iMac

Suddenly your price is $2,400+ for the Dell vs. $1,999 for the iMac.

You do get a better graphics card though with the Aurora.  You get more RAM and a larger Monitor with better resolution with the iMac. Plus the iMac is much nicer looking, sleek all in one design.

Which system is overpriced again?

I see that Apple's love for NVIDIA (which they spouted over a year ago) has suddenly dried up.

Looks like no windows compatibility for the Magic Mouse.

"The new device is Bluetooth-enabled for wireless use, and Apple says its equally friendly to either left or right hands. But it will work only with Macs running Leopard version 10.5.8 or later; Windows users need not apply."

gadgetwise.blogs.nytimes.com/.../apples-touching-new-mouse

"the iMac is much nicer looking, sleek all in one design"

Until this happens:

applefanbe.files.wordpress.com/.../imac.jpg

@"Magic" mouse:

Nice!  LOL!

Buy a new iMac, and you have to buy a second mouse just to use Windows.

ROFLMAO!!!!

Not only that, but the wireless keyboard is in the same boat.

iMac:  No longer compatible with Windows out of the box.

Too bad the mouse will still probably require finger lifting to determine button presses, making it a no-sell for me.

@wireless keyboard:

LOL!  No numpad either.  This will get no love from businesses that do any work with Numbers.  ;)

Apple seriously goofed up this release!

Newsflash:  Mac guy from ZDNet says Apple is screwing over customers:

blogs.zdnet.com/BTL

"Buy a new iMac, and you have to buy a second mouse just to use Windows."

Uh, no.  If you mean running Windows on the Mac under Boot Camp or virtualization, the mouse and all the fancy scrolly stuff should work fine.  Just like the trackpad gestures on the macbooks work in windows.

I assumed Paul was referring to using it with a Windows PC.

Waethorn said:

@wireless keyboard:

LOL!  No numpad either.  This will get no love from businesses that do any work with Numbers.  ;)

Maybe you should read the options before you make statements...

Apple Keyboard and Documentation

The Apple Wireless Keyboard comes standard with your iMac. Its ultra-compact design saves space and lets you place your mouse comfortably next to your keyboard. Or you can choose the wired Apple Keyboard with Numeric Keypad or the wired Apple Keyboard. In addition, you can select the language of the keyboard and documentation.

Learn more

Apple Wireless Keyboard (English) and User's Guide

Apple Wireless Keyboard (Spanish) and User's Guide

Apple Wireless Keyboard (French) and User's Guide

Apple Wireless Keyboard (Japanese) and User's Guide

Apple Keyboard (English) and User's Guide

Apple Keyboard (Spanish) and User's Guide

Apple Keyboard (French) and User's Guide

Apple Keyboard (Japanese) and User's Guide

Apple Keyboard with Numeric Keypad (English) and User's Guide

Apple Keyboard with Numeric Keypad (Spanish) and User's Guide

Apple Keyboard with Numeric Keypad (French) and User's Guide

Apple Keyboard with Numeric Keypad (Japanese) and User's Guide

@ RunTimeError

Don't bring this sort of information to Mike.

Next thing you'll know he'll be inventing nephews and nieces that have hardware configurations that are virtually impossible to understand, as he did when making his point about Snow Leopard upgrades.

No hardware manufacturer can bring the type of hardware Apple released today in a single package, with a far more superior OS than W7 and iLife package for the amount of money Apple does.

"If you mean running Windows on the Mac under Boot Camp or virtualization, the mouse and all the fancy scrolly stuff should work fine."

No, the Magic Mouse ships with all of the new iMac's, and according to the article that YOU posted, it doesn't work on Windows.  Even on Apple's website, the keyboard and mouse pages state zero compatibility with Windows, and specifies a set version of OS X that it works with.

More expensive junk by Apple that will break after 3 months usage....

@ Waethorn

Basically, that says: we at Microsoft cannot keep up with technological developments in our OS.

Which is no surprise. They haven't been able to do that since the early 90s.

"No, the Magic Mouse ships with all of the new iMac's, and according to the article that YOU posted, it doesn't work on Windows.  Even on Apple's website, the keyboard and mouse pages state zero compatibility with Windows, and specifies a set version of OS X that it works with."

Are you really dense enough to believe that Apple would ship a mouse with their computers that didn't work with Windows under Boot Camp?

Really?

And what does "the keyboard and mouse pages state zero compatibility with Windows" mean exactly?  Please point me to that bit.  The bit where they "state zero compatibility with Windows."

Jeez.

It is always a mistery to me to see that a company like apple volontaraly do hardware not compatible with the most used operating system, Windows...

Really a mistery... It like to shot yourself in the feet... really a mistery...

"Maybe you should read the options before you make statements..."

Maybe you should read options on a PC manufacturers site before you compare baseline packages to the iMac too.

"we at Microsoft cannot keep up with technological developments in our OS."

Wrong.  Bluetooth keyboards and mice were made by Microsoft long before Apple had these, and OS support was there long before that.

"Are you really dense enough to believe that Apple would ship a mouse with their computers that didn't work with Windows under Boot Camp?"

From your link:

"The new device is Bluetooth-enabled for wireless use, and Apple says its equally friendly to either left or right hands. But it will work only with Macs running Leopard version 10.5.8 or later; Windows users need not apply."

Name calling aside, you're the one that posted a link to a NYTimes article that said the mouse wasn't compatible with Windows, jacka$$.

"And what does "the keyboard and mouse pages state zero compatibility with Windows" mean exactly?  Please point me to that bit."

System requirements, clear as day:

"Bluetooth-enabled Mac computer

Mac OS X v10.5.8 or later with Wireless Mouse Software Update 1.0

Existing keyboard and mouse for setup"  **

"Bluetooth-enabled Mac computer

Mac OS X v10.5.8 or later with Wireless Mouse Software Update 1.0

Existing keyboard and mouse for setup"  **

http://www.apple.com/keyboard/

www.apple.com/magicmouse

Nope, no Windows there.

If the article YOU posted says that it's not Windows compatible, and Apple doesn't say that either is compatible with Windows, I don't see how I can be in the wrong for stating the same.

**  How can you have an existing mouse and keyboard for setup if you buy a new iMac that only ships with these?  FAIL!

crankenstein said:

"More expensive junk by Apple that will break after 3 months usage...."

Back up that statement.

Show me cheaper Windows PCs that have comparable specs. Because the example I showed above the iMac was the less expensive option.

"Too bad the mouse will still probably require finger lifting to determine button presses, making it a no-sell for me."

According to the video, you're right.  Looks like you have to raise your fingers to click on this POS.  It's also way too small, making this an ergonomic nightmare.

Apple should've made this a big multitouch trackpad.  That would've made more sense.

Too bad somebody already beat them to the punch:

www.wacom.com/.../bamboo_touch.php

"Name calling aside, you're the one that posted a link to a NYTimes article that said the mouse wasn't compatible with Windows, jacka$$."

Good.  I'm glad we're not calling names.  (My "dense" comment was rhetorical.  I was not calling you dense - the assumption was that you were not so.  Perhaps I did not make myself clear.)

The NYT guy was clearly referring to Windows PC hardware, not Mac virtualization.

When one runs Windows on the Mac, whether under the mouse *WILL* work.  I promise. You can continue to claim it won't, based on a misreading of an article I now regret posting, but you'd be wrong.

Then again there's no mention of compatibility with Photoshop, MS Word, porn, or LOLCats.com either, so maybe this thing really is a disaster in the making.

"Macintosh sales have now grown faster than the rest of the PC market in 19 of the last 20 quarters."

-- "Apple’s Profit Climbs 47% as Sales Gain"; New York Times; October 19, 2009

"Must be trying to play catch-up with Windows 7, Zune HD, and WinMo 6.5."

Dam that is funny, especially the WinMO part.

"OK Mike I know you like logic and that you are totally immune and resistant to any concept of design, manufacturing and beauty "

That is true. Mike Galos has no taste. Common among most Windows users.

"Too bad the mouse will still probably require finger lifting to determine button presses, making it a no-sell for me."

WRONG

"The surface can also simulate the left and right buttons. Unlike in previous Apple's mice, the two buttons work perfectly. This time they also added *physical feedback,* so when you click the buttons, you actually get the entire surface to click—like the original clear Apple mouse." -- Gizmodo

gizmodo.com/.../apple-magic-mouse-hands-on

"Even on Apple's website, the keyboard and mouse pages state zero compatibility with Windows ..."

This is HALF TRUE

"When you use an Apple Magic Mouse with Windows XP and Vista using Boot Camp 3.0, which ships with Mac OS X v10.6 Snow Leopard, or Boot Camp 2.1, which shipped with Mac OS X v10.5 Leopard, up or down scrolling and two finger swiping does not work." -- Apple Support Page, support.apple.com/.../TS3039

So by inference it looks like the laser will track in Windows thereby moving the cursor and that you can left and right click (since that is not swipe-dependent action) but swiping actions will not work, including scrolling.

I'd think this is merely a driver issue but that's the state of it as of today.

News just through: Microsoft has announced that they will be releasing their own multi-touch mouse. "Microsoft, where innovation goes to die" (tm)

@ericof3: "It is always a mistery to me to see that a company like apple volontaraly do hardware not compatible with the most used operating system, Windows..."

Because Windows is inferior. Lots of people buy it. It just shows that a lot of people don't know any better and buy cheap crap. People like you, Mike and Paul and ....

@mikegalos: "Well, there's no accounting for your taste."

True, you have no taste.

Windows and Microsoft become more irrelevant in people's mind as the days pass. It kills Microsoft apologists like Paul, Mike and the rest that people love Apple and Google. Microsoft is becoming like IBM, irrelevant in anything but the back rooms of corporations.

@Waethorn said:

"Maybe you should read options on a PC manufacturers site before you compare baseline packages to the iMac too."

I certainly did.  

Please feel free to point out what I missed in trying to compare machines with similar specs.

Also recall it was Mike who pointed out the "baseline" machine at $1,300 to try and make it seem like the iMacs are overpriced.  

Or maybe you prefer I tweak out the machine and compare a $5,000 PC to a $1,999 iMac, like so many others do in reverse.  I can certainly do that then claim there is a Windows tax....

wlow3

"Macintosh sales have now grown faster than the rest of the PC market in 19 of the last 20 quarters."

And even then it's only up to less than 4% of the market.

And people who think the Apollo astronauts secretly landed on a sound stage in Nevada are still a huge group compared to Mac users. (3.9% vs 6%)

yoshi

"Also recall it was Mike who pointed out the "baseline" machine at $1,300 to try and make it seem like the iMacs are overpriced. "

You can try to recall that but it didn't happen. Perhaps you have a problem with short-term recall since it was in this same topic.

I pointed out one vendor (Dell's Alienware division) who also made announcements today and yet didn't get anywhere near the press coverage despite their announcments being MUCH more significant and having the flexibility to offer machines to a much broader audience.

You know, the typical PC vendor's plan of "we'll build what you need" rather than Apple's "you will need what we want to build" mentality.

wlow3

"Unlike in previous Apple's mice, the two buttons work perfectly. "

So are you agreeing with the author that every other Apple mouse ever made is a broken design where the buttons don't really work right?

Why didn't we hear about this from all the Apple fans on here for all these years?

"Their Core i7 Quad based systems start at $1300 (for a base Aurora) and go up to the Area 51 ALX which can be configured with multiple graphics cards, factory overclocked processors, liquid cooling, TV tuner , triple displays, 1600MHz DDR, 3TB disk, etc. And, most of that's available as options even on the base Aurora."

Looks to me like you are saying their systems start at $1300.  

There are certainly many more options.  That is a fact.

Yet when you spec out similar machines, which one is more expensive?

Maybe you could have said something like their tweaked out systems can cost up to $11,456. But when you start with the lowest possible price, thats to show how cheap they are.

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yoshi

OK. We'll add reading comprehension to short term memory loss.

The point was and is that despite virtually NO press, Alienware is producing a much broader line with much more flexibility of meeting the users' needs. Yes, their lowest end machine is lower (and is still a pretty high end machine) and yes their highest end machine is higher. That's part of what makes it a broad line with lots of flexibility.

You know, as opposed to "you'll like what we give you" which has generally been the Apple mantra for meeting their user's needs.

FAIL!

EPIC FAIL!

EPIC SUCK!

Weathorn = 14 year old boy.

Mike

I apologize if I misinterpreted what you were saying.

To me it seemed like it was the PC starts at $1300 and you can configure it how you want, meaning they are cheaper.

My bad!

Guys... give it up.

Don't you know? Paul (I know what side of my bread is buttered) Thurrott and Mike (I have nothing to do all day than converse on this blog about.. what is it exactly?) Galos are right.... and EVERYONE else is wrong.

You have a guy who clearly shouldn't even be using Apple products and reporting on them only to rip them, but can't give up iPhone, a macbook, and loves AppleTV, yet still wishes he could get out of the Apple "ecosystem". The review of your macbook is over, give it up. The review of your iPhone is over, give it up. If you can. I can read your review of Windows ME and know how your review of Windows 7 will be. Simply the best.

You have another guy, assuming the picture is of him, who is middle aged with nothing to do all day that visit you people here, who can twist every single fact and figure to fit his needs to defend Microsoft to no end and berate anyone who questions the man above or the company he so proudly defends (MS) or promotes the company he despises (Apple).

There is no way any Apple follower here will be right. Do yourselves a favor and stop coming here only to increase Paul's page counts. That's why he does this.

At least Paul gets paid for it, I am not sure what a middle aged man like Mike Galos' excuse is.

Mike

"So are you agreeing with the author that every other Apple mouse ever made is a broken design where the buttons don't really work right?"

I'm not quite sure what that means. On the Mighty Mouse anything from center position to the left is a left-click. To right-click you have to go off center to the right. Some people have trouble with that. Other than that, I don't know.

"Why didn't we hear about this from all the Apple fans on here for all these years?"

Um, actually the mouse, from the hockey puck one to the Mighty Mouse, has gotten a lot of flak from Apple fans -- everyone knows this. When you're bold with design, you might make stuff that consumers won't embrace. But the opposite, say, if we're talking cars, is a world of "safe" inoffensive (boring) jelly-bean-shaped cars. One trouble with the auto industry is that the don't take enough design risks. Same with the PC industry. By not being as "accommodating," Apple can be bolder and turn more heads.    

wlow

Actually I was hoping you could clarify what they meant by "Unlike in previous Apple's mice, the two buttons work perfectly. " since you were the one who posted it.

To me that reads that all previous Apple mice had buttons that didn't work correctly and I was wondering if this was a "secretly bad" design that wasn't admitted was imprefect until the replacement came out at which point the old design went from

"perfect (OK it sucks but we don't talk about that)" to

"unusable (now that the new one's fixed the problem we can admit the old one sucked)".

The classic example is that virtually every single review of a Porsche 911 I've seen since 1971 has included a phrase like "unlike earlier 911s, this one finally fixes the oversteer problem". And then, of course, two years later the next "new" version fixes the problem that was supposedly "fixed" two years ago in the previous "new" version. That particular problem has been "fixed" now about twenty times so far (and they still snap oversteer so I'm sure we'll see it "finally fixed" yet again in another year or two).

Yoshi

No problem.

@mikegalos - "To me that reads that all previous Apple mice had buttons that didn't work correctly..."

Not only does it seem that mikegalos has a short attention span, since he is not able to multi-task enough to post on 2 threads at once...but he also seems to have a reading comprehension problem...as he likes to accuse others of...over and over and over and over again in the last few days.

--tayme

@robertsjoe said:

"That is true. Mike Galos has no taste. Common among most Windows users."

I, myself, have a really nice Antec p190 case - it doesn't look awe inspiring, it's just a black case that is really quiet. Look I'll be fairly blunt here - I buy my PC case based on functionality before looks.. Taste doesn't really come into it... See, the difference between a PC user, generally, and a Mac user is that PC users will say "look how fast my PC is it can run this game/program/os/whatever x times faster than yours". A Mac user points to his/her mac and says "isn't it pretty! I know it has a POS 256mb video card but it's so pretty!"

I'm sorry - I have no desire to hump my computer - even if you want to hump your mac.

@robertsjoe said:

"Because Windows is inferior. Lots of people buy it. It just shows that a lot of people don't know any better and buy cheap crap. People like you, Mike and Paul and ...."

Where is your logic? Are you telling me that Mac users are simply the chosen ones? They have some how deciphered some code and understand "Mac is better"?  Cause I'll be really honest with you and say that the Mac users I know AREN'T technically minded. They don't know the "new OS features", they don't understand what "Multicore CPUs" are and they definitely don't know the shortcut to make the OS run in 64-bit mode.. The Mac users I know are graphic artists who have funny hair and militantly explain the workflow is better on a Mac (even though Photoshop CS4 is exactly the same on a PC) and they are school teachers who had their laptop supplied too them because the school purchased one for every teacher and student.. These aren't people who "choose" Mac because it is superior - I can guarantee that there is a good portion of Mac users who couldn't tell me the specs of their machine off the top of their head and an even greater number that couldn't explain the underlying technologies in the OS or on a hardware level AND an even LARGER number that couldn't give a solid reason as to why their mac is better than a PC other than "it doesn't crash" (and even that is a mute point - I haven't had a crash on my Windows Vista or 7 machine for as long as I can remember - applications may fall over once in a blue moon but the system itself is solid).

And here's the point:

PC users understand one thing better than any Mac user will ever understand. I want you to listen closely here:

....Operating a computer is something that you invest time in....Learning the skills to understand how to be safe on the internet, how to configure and install software, how not to destroy OS installs and so forth - these all are something that should be learned.. Learning HOW a computer works and WHY it works, so that when a problem arises you can face it - this is part of being a computer user... Most long time PC users have at one point or another built their own PC or upgraded a component.. Am I saying it's a virtue to have done this? No, of course not because there are just as many people who have never touched the hardware and just ordered from a vendor but I am saying that there are lessons to be learned from doing this...

These sort of things are foreign to mac users - all they know is that the pretty box does cool things when you click it...and I'm sorry - if you can't tell me more than that and if you can't give me a better reason than "it doesn't crash" (because macs crash too - I've seen them do it..lol) then please, don't bother me with your opinion or thoughts - they aren't valid.

If you want to argue the merits of a really nicely designed lounge/couch set - go ahead, talk asthetics and how it's softer and fluffier than the competitor. But if you want to talk to me about computers - please, learn enough about computers to actually discuss COMPUTERS. Tell me why a DDR3 system on 1066mhz (MAC) is better than my i7 system with 2200mhz DDR3...Or tell me why I would want a 27" monitor on a computer that has a 256mb video card - how is that thing ever going to refresh the screen, especially under load, at high resolution - I've seen a 22" mac with the 256mb video card struggle to get 15fps on World of Warcraft - how is this thing going to cope? Talk to me about things that matter in computer... Talk to me about how this is going to improve my computer experience... Tell me how this is going to keep me on the cutting edge of technology (well, not on the mac side..but sure)..  

I'm sorry - Mac fans, you have conversations about all the wrong things.. You discuss paint colours whilst we discuss room sizes..

Cheers..

@sempsempsemp.  This is a technical blog about Microsoft products when Paul is not hating on Apple.  The people that come here are not normal users, most are probably in IT or like computers a lot.

That said they probably represent less than 5% of computer users.  Your statement

"is that PC users will say "look how fast my PC is it can run this game/program/os/whatever x times faster than yours"

is so far of what Joe User thinks its funny.  Joe PC user really says "I just want it to work and I am sick of all this malware".  To them a PC is a tool to get something done.  Not a hobby where they buy faster DDR3 RAM and a "really nice" Antec P190 case.

Go to a really busy mall and setup your PC with its 2200mhz DDR3 and its "really nice Antec P190 case" with whatever monitor you have and your video card with 512meg to 1gig of RAM on a table.  Put a 27inch iMac on the table next to it.  Put up a sign that says "you can have one of these for free, but only one, pick one".  99% of Joe PC users will NOT pick your computer.

A 27inch screen will run just fine with a 256meg video card.  Will it play the latest PC games at native resolution, probably not well.  That said judging by the sales of PC games vs consoles games, I am going to be that the owner of the 27inc iMac is probably going to play games on his PS3 on his 50+inch 1080p LCD TV.

While I'm glad Apple has finally embraced desktop class processors, a nice 27 inch screen which Windows users have had for years now, a nice mouse, and a touch up for Mini. Definitely a nice but overdue hardware refresh.

However, $2000 for a core i7? HAH!

I have already estimated that I can build a Core i7 for under $1,000! Easily too.

That is what I call being "Ripped off Differently." All this conversation of Apple saving money with nVidia chips and other cost savings and not one single dollar of saving passed on to the consumer. That's outrageous. With the exception of the Mini, the rest of the Apple line is too expensive for the average working joe. Looks like Windows 7 will be allow me to keep my dual core running for several years to come.

Oh and may I quote Walt Mossberg who made this great quote and a warning to Apple.

"In recent years, I, like many other reviewers, have argued that Apple's Mac OS X operating system is much better than Windows. That's no longer true. I still give the Mac OS a slight edge because it has a much easier and cheaper upgrade path; more built-in software programs; and far less vulnerability to viruses and other malicious software, which are overwhelmingly built to run on Windows.

Now, however, it's much more of a toss-up between the two rivals. Windows 7 beats the Mac OS in some areas, such as better previews and navigation right from the taskbar, easier organization of open windows on the desktopand [sic] touch-screen capabilities. So Apple will have to scramble now that the gift of aflawed [sic] Vista has been replaced with a reliable, elegant version of Windows."

Keep believing the arrogant smug comments of our resident trolls on here. But this time even Mossberg has opened his eyes. History repeats itself and the hubris of the foolish will lead Apple down the the same history like an endless waltz.

subzerohitman721

Nobody cares what  YOU can build a system for.  People don't want to build a system, they want to buy something that works.  It such a tired and silly argument.  

Go price out a similarly specced Dell computer to the new iMac as I have done above, then come back and post which machine is cheaper.  

@subzero WTF?  "a nice 27 inch screen which Windows users have had for years now"???

and those 27inch LCD's you speak of could not be used on Mac's?  You do know that Apple has made a 30inch display for some time now??

Speaking of which I went searching for 27inch back lit LCD's.  I only found a few 27inch LCD monitors (the rest TV's) and both of them were not backlit and had a lower resolution than the Apple one.  Both were just over $1000.  (Samsung and Dell).  So lets say I did find a 27inch backlit LCD at 2560x1440 what would it cost, $1200?  $1300? For $700 to $800 I get that 27inch backlit LCD from Apple with a core I7 all in a small foot print desktop computer, including the new touch interface mouse.

Your Walt quotes really explain those quarterly numbers yesterday well.

iMac pricing...

store.apple.com/.../imac

Dell XPS One pricing

www.dell.com/.../pd.aspx

Sony L series pricing

www.sonystyle.com/.../CategoryDisplay

I am not feeling the Apple Tax???

"Speaking of which I went searching for 27inch back lit LCD's.  I only found a few 27inch LCD monitors (the rest TV's) and both of them were not backlit and had a lower resolution than the Apple one.  Both were just over $1000.  (Samsung and Dell).  So lets say I did find a 27inch backlit LCD at 2560x1440 what would it cost, $1200?  $1300? For $700 to $800 I get that 27inch backlit LCD from Apple with a core I7 all in a small foot print desktop computer, including the new touch interface mouse."

This is what I was getting at in my original post wayyyyy up there.

The Alienware BOX, with similar specs was a little (by like $15) cheaper than the 27" iMac. The Alienware box had a better video card. The iMac had more ram; but other than that they were pretty on par.

Then I realized that the iMac had a 27", LED backlit screen with *very* decent resolution so I figured I'd better add a 27" LED backlit monitor to the Alienware package... only, they didn't have one. They had a 27" LCD that runs at the same resolution my (non-Apple) 24" LCD runs at ... for an extra $929.

And no Mike, OS X doesn't support DX11, but I'm sure it runs Windows 7 and all it's software just fine, thank you. I know my MacBook Pro does, so I don't see why this new iMac won't. But it doesn't matter. You'll twist all this into some new and wonderful "MS is always right, no matter what because I'm mikegalos who works for MS and I'm always right no matter what"  diatribe. I'm sure :)

I was a Windows user and switched to Apple two years ago.  I am the IT department for my family of six.  I just couldn't keep up under windows.

I revisit this site occasionally to see what the windows community thinks of Mac and visa versa.  I have to say I can't stand reading the comments any more.  It's just a friggin' computer people!

I stopped my visits for the past month because of several of the comments, but mostly because of Mike Galos.  You are condescending and your arguments are just too much Microsoft PR/spin for me.  If you have a legitimate point I skip over it because your message is lost in the delivery.  I've never heard you give Apple it's due.  You're the kind of guy I'd manufacture an excuse for... to get away from at a social event.  

I for one can't wait to try the new magic mouse.  I'd love a 27" iMac... it sounds like the perfect sized screen for my needs.  I might buy a mini and hook it up to my old XP machine's monitor.  The XP box gets bogged down to the point of being unusable every six months.  Why the hell does that happen?

My first iMac was purchased two years ago.  It just keeps working.  I've spend no time fixing the thing.  My wife and four daughters all use it.  The PC rarely gets touched.

My iPhone is the most revolutionary device I've ever used.  I got my wife one - it was the best Christmas present I ever bought her.

I'm sure Microsoft has improved but the small extra I may pay for an apple product pays me back thousands of times over for giving me more time to actually enjoy my family and my time at the computer.

Have fun with whatever floats your boat.  I'm out.

Pistol

The Apple sychophants will lap this up as usual and won't query the price one bit. I for one like to shop around and not get screwed for the technology I buy, its called choice.

Pistol

" I am the IT department for my family of six."

Really? You are really going to compare baby-sitting your family's use of a Mac with being an "IT department".

Wow.

And I guess anyone who can scramble some eggs is a chef and driving the kids to soccer practically means getting a Teamster card.

You don't like my posts, fine. But please apologize to the people who actually do real work in real IT departments and manage hundreds of desktops and servers. Those people, when they do their job right, are the heroes of this industry and deserve a LOT more credit than being equated to somebody who couldn't handle running a home computer or two.

Maintaining a home's few computers no more makes you "an IT department" than scrambling up a few eggs makes you a professional chef.

Good to see people are moving to Apple. It's a good thing.

You should all stop using Microsoft products.They are lagging behind in development and innovation, have missed the boat with the Internet, online search and advisertising, digital music.

On top of that, they cannot create software unless they steal it from people who can, the hardware they make fails miserably (there's even a wiki for xbox-failures) and is even more expensive than PS3 (which does have a blu ray player).

In fact, MS is only kept alive by lunatics like Mike who are given a few bucks a month to visit websites like this and post utterly insane comments that make no coherent sense at all.

Unless you're a looney like Mike.

"with a far more superior OS than W7 "

Get out of here, OSX doens't even come close to Vista or Windows 7, the distance is staggering.

@ sjaak327

Obvious troll is obvious.

Plus, I would consider seeking mental help if you truly believe Vista is better than OSX.

You might suffer from Galosingitis. Bad thing is, there is at present no cure for that.

Mike has worked for Microsoft in the past as a contractor.

Anyway, of the 10 people in our community I usually help out with computer matters 6 have already moved to MAC, the rest of them haven't yet just for an financial restrain more than a technical one, is strange how nowadays all the eyes are on Google and Apple when it comes to innovation and exciting stuff, people are definitely shifting towards other platforms.

I agree 100% with LogJamming, Microsoft has lost the capacity of innovate, you think Microsoft you think big, slow, bloated unreliable.

Microsoft has lost the confidence of Geeks and tech heads, you go to a developers conference nowadays I can assure you that 60% if the laptops are Apple. Ultimately geeks and tech heads influence the average users, in my own experience, when somebody asks me for help in buying a new PC my standard answer is "buy a mac" is good for them, is best for me not having to be called dozens of times a week to sort out all those MS Windows annoiances.

Well, time for the usual disclaimer...

I am currently not paid by Microsoft as an employee, contractor or vendor although I was a Microsoft employee from 1988-2001 and have consulted to them several times over the past years. In no way do I speak for them nor they for me.

Log

"people are moving to Apple"

Wow. Macintosh is up to 3.36% worldwide.

Why, assuming they can keep up this blistering rate of growth and with a little luck they'll be back to where they were twenty years ago in only a few centuries.

@ logjamming, I don't think it is better I KNOW it is better.

And I have extensive experience with both Leopard and Vista.

Trolling seems to be your only purpose here, haven't seen you post anything of substance yet. But I guess lack of knowledge does that too you..

@ Mike

Again, Microsoft usage rates have been dropping for years. You may feel excited about 85% market share, but it has been 90+%. Apple has reported (again) better sales of computers, even in time of recession. Further, your 3.36% is inaccurate: it's closer to 8-10%

www.tuaw.com/.../apple-market-share-continues-to-climb-windows-drops

arstechnica.com/.../apple-market-share-up-or-down-depending-on-who-you-ask.ars

As I've said before, research also shows that OSX usage goes up in the weekend. It's clear to see why. People don't have to deal with an OS that is begin shoved down their throat by Microsoft skeemers who are only out to sell MS licences to businesses.

In fact, various faculties at our university have recently moved to Apple computers for staff. Why? Because employees favored them over Windows XP/2K.

Treating the current market share numbers as a static is denying the obvious: Microsoft has been losing market share, OSX (and others) have gained market share.

Oh, and I do use Windows for statistical and scientific applications that have not been ported to OSX or just don't work that well under OSX. In fact, I started using Windows way back in 96/97, but no Windows version yet (and yes, I run W7 using bootcamp) can match OSX.

"Oh, and I do use Windows for statistical and scientific applications that have not been ported to OSX or just don't work that well under OSX. In fact, I started using Windows way back in 96/97, but no Windows version yet (and yes, I run W7 using bootcamp) can match OSX."

It is save to say that way back in 96/97 OSX wasn't even around.

You just state no Windows version to date matches whatever OSX version, but give 0 reasons why this is the case. People who actually make a living out of running and supporting OS in networking envirornments (read in businesses) will probably without many exceptions say just the opposite. I mean in terms of configurability, roll out OSX doesn't even come close.

That leaves the consumers. Now you can argue about usabiltiy, I prefer Win7 /Vista over SL or Leopard any day. But in the consumers space, two things that are quite important for me are media and games, in both cases Windows wipes the floor with OSX. Front Row ? LOL a disgrace.

Backup77 said:

"The Apple sychophants will lap this up as usual and won't query the price one bit. I for one like to shop around and not get screwed for the technology I buy, its called choice."

Show me a machine that is comparable in spec to the iMac that is much cheaper. I could not find any at Dell's store.

mike galos,

Do you really not know what a metaphore is?

subzero,

You can build a Core i7 for under 1K?  Please post a link or all the specs because i am in the market for a new PC and 1K is what I am looking to spend.

Thanks!

"I am not sure what a middle aged man like Mike Galos' excuse is. "

He lost his job and has nothing better to do.

I know I'm a little late to the party, but Microsoft Research already demoed something like this about a month ago:

www.techflash.com/.../video_microsoft_multitouch_mice.html

@logjamming, @robertsjoe - Yea, Microsoft not a hardware company, got it, Microsoft can't innovate, check, Microsoft sucks and can only sell an OS because others aren't as smart as you.  got it.  Tell you what.  We'll all stipulate those facts if you promise to quit trolling the "windows supersite".  Thanks.

Back on topic, the mouse looks interesting.  I've never been a big fan of the alps mice, always liked IBM touchstyck better.  This might be nice though (assumming windows users can use it).  I know on my iTouch the screen kinda scrolls away sometimes even on a slight touch.  That would probably not be too good for browsing or reading a document.  But interesting nonetheless.

@chipwinter "Must be trying to play catch-up with...and WinMo 6.5

Oh, I don't think so on that.  iPhone stll >> win mobile 6.x

@dave "OK Mike I know you like logic and that you are totally immune and resistant to any concept of design, manufacturing and beauty but hey c'mon you dare comparing this:

I'd take the former because I would be willing to be large sums of money that the performance on the alienware for gaming (what it's designed for) is MUCH greater.

If you mean which one looks better, then obviously the second.  But people would be buying these for different reasons, once again making any comparison meaningless.  Not ragging on you, so please don't take it that way.  Just pointing out that they aren't marketed to the same folks.

"The Mac users I know are graphic artists who have funny hair and militantly explain the workflow is better on a Mac (even though Photoshop CS4 is exactly the same on a PC)"

Actually, no.

Photoshop CS4 on Windows is available as a full 64-bit application.  That's not so on Mac.

Also, Mac's graphics offerings are now a complete joke.

Waethorn  said:

"The Mac users I know are graphic artists who have funny hair and militantly explain the workflow is better on a Mac (even though Photoshop CS4 is exactly the same on a PC)"

Actually, no.

Photoshop CS4 on Windows is available as a full 64-bit application.  That's not so on Mac.

*************

Which is due to Adobe's foot dragging not Apple's Photoshop needed to be rewritten years ago on the Mac, they kept pushing it off.

@logjamming "Oh, and I do use Windows for statistical and scientific applications that have not been ported to OSX or just don't work that well under OSX. In fact, I started using Windows way back in 96/97, but no Windows version yet (and yes, I run W7 using bootcamp) can match OSX."

When you say OS X is better than Windows 7, exactly what do you mean.  In what way is it better?  In what way can it not match OS X?  If you would include facts like these in your statements then I would be less inclined to believe you to be a troll.  You never see me say things like this to rr0de74 because agree or disagree with him, he presents some facts or pieces of information that argue his point.  All you said was that OS X can't match Win 7?  But you gave no details on what the usage was or why the particular usage was better.  Seriously, don't get mad.  Just think about it.

Logjamming

I guess you missed Paul's blog post from Monday (two whole days ago) titled "Mac Market Share is now 3.86 Percent". It's at community.winsupersite.com/.../mac-market-share-is-now-3-86-percent.aspx

To save you having to read all that text - it IS six whole paragraphs - here is the key item that was bolded in the original, "the Mac now has 3.86 percent market share worldwide"

So, please, let us know how you came up with Windows being down to 85% and the Mac at 8-10%. While you're at it, you might explain who has the remaining 5-7%. Linux? BeOS? TRS-DOS?

Dude

(re: Adobe CS4 64-bit for Mac OS X being unavailable while Adobe CS4 64-bit is available for Windows)

"Which is due to Adobe's foot dragging not Apple's "

No. Which is due to Apple cancelling the 64-bit version of the "Carbon" libraries at the last minute.

Apple partners, including Adobe, had been given early release copies and assurances that they could move their Carbon apps to 64-bit without a rewrite by using those 64-bit Carbon libraries. Then, long after the projects were already in development, with no warning and very little publicity, Apple just dropped 64-bit Carbon with no workarounds but to either not do a 64-bit version or rewrite from scratch in Cocoa.

Once again, Apple told their developer partners to "pound sand" (as Scoble put it) and the user is the one who paid the price.

"It's also way too small, making this an ergonomic nightmare."

If you ask someone who knows something about ergonomics, they'll tell you that the flatter a mouse is, the better it is for your wrists. There's just the compromise to be made that a completely flat mouse is not easy to move around.

"Photoshop CS4 on Windows is available as a full 64-bit application.  That's not so on Mac."

It remains to be seen whether Windows 7 offers a reliable color workflow, because Vista never did. So yes, you can do exactly the same things on the PC as on the Mac (except sometimes marginally faster), and you only need a Mac with a calibrated screen to check the results are accurate.

"Also, Mac's graphics offerings are now a complete joke."

Care to elaborate? I just happen to have 25 minutes to shoot down all your answers while Snow Leopard update is installing on my work machine.

Mum

"If you ask someone who knows something about ergonomics, they'll tell you that the flatter a mouse is, the better it is for your wrists. "

Well, no ergonomist I've ever talked to says that. In fact they say pretty much the opposite, so perhaps you might want to hold back that claim that everybody agrees with you.

For an example of a Mouse designed with ergonomics in mind, see the Microsoft Natural Wireless Laser Mouse 6000 at www.microsoft.com/.../natmouse.mspx

Or you could see what Dr. Dan Odell, an actual Ergonomist, has to say at www.microsoft.com/.../drdan.mspx

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More of the same old WinSupersite, He said/She said show...love it. It seems to me that some of you have an awful lot of spare time. Must be due to the rising unemployment problem in the U.S.

--tayme

multi-touch mouse is a joke...

except the freaky ones ms has in their labs...those are good.

right mike?

"Care to elaborate? I just happen to have 25 minutes to shoot down all your answers while Snow Leopard update is installing on my work machine."

All the marketing spin they put into "SUPERIOR NVIDIA Chipsets" and they criticized Intel's power management about a year ago.  Now they're using Intel chipsets on all the new product revisions (aside from the products that haven't changed) because NVIDIA doesn't make Core i5/i7 chipsets, and ATI Radeon 4800 cards running as totally discrete options means it's nothing other than back to Intel for chipset solutions.  There is no more 9400M chipset onboard video on new models (except the low-end iMac and the MacBook, which are using the old architecture) and no optional addition of discrete 9600M GT's.  The ATI Radeon 4600 series is no replacement for a 9600, and they don't offer 9800's where the 4800 series is inferior.

Look at the Mac Pro video options too - GF GT 120's are OEM-only cards, and are quite frankly, a joke.  The 220's are much better, but they don't offer them.  The GT 120's are the lowest-of-the-low for GeForce 100/200 series graphics cards.  The only other option is a single 4800 series Radeon card.  

No pro cards any more on Mac Pro.  That's a total laugh.  No Quadro cards at all, and they never even thought to carry pro-level FireStream GL cards from AMD.

They fumbled this release with inferior and incomplete graphics offerings on all their new models, and the Mac Pro (and new model iMac's) is now just an underpowered toy and can't be taken seriously for any amount of GPU-heavy graphics work.

Mike, we've had this discussion before... The ergonomic mice you get in the shops that force your hand in some sort of compromised position are better suited for people who don't use mice much and thus don't need to learn the proper techniques involved. However, you'll quickly notice that efficient working is impossible with them.

Using a mouse resembles playing an instrument; like you swing drumsticks with your fingers, not your wrists or elbows. And a symmetrical (i.e. predictable) mouse shape is best suited for both precision and ergonomy.

But it's true that your everyday ergonomics guy might recommend stuff like you above. Specialists won't agree, though.

mikegalos@msn.com  said:

blah, blah

***********

Actually Mike if Adobe had gotten their butts in gear in 1999/2000 this wouldn't be an issue but the major players at the time balked and Apple had to appease them.

Apple had enough of Adobe slacking and forced their hand. If they hadn't Adobe would still be writing PS in Carbon.

Thanks for playing.

Apple's year long partnership with NVIDIA (and subsequent ***-slap to Intel with critical marketing against them) over chipsets and GPU solutions has come to a sudden close.

And people say that Microsoft abuses partners....

Oh, right, I thought by graphics you were referring to graphics software other than Photoshop. You know, the GPU graphics work you're referring to mostly means gaming, so I'd go for a console anyway.

Mum,

Yes, we've gotten into this before and yet you still insist that anyone who disagrees doesn't know anything about ergonomics including professional ergonomists.

I have no problem with you having opinions and it's quite possible that, for you, a flat mouse works better. But it is just arrogant to insist that yours are the only opinion that matters and that anyone who disagrees doesn't know what they're talking about.

Dude

Apple said Adobe could do the 64-bit port in Carbon.

Adobe trusted Apple

Apple pulled the rug out from under Adobe and their users

marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx

I've never understood all the hype about market share in the computer world. No one cares in other product markets. Volvo, Subaru, Mercedes, Audi and BMW all have less than %2 market share in the states according the wsj.com. Each company has its own business model designed around its product lineup. Apple has a very focused product lineup for good reason. Companies that try to offer too many disparate designs end up wasting resources, confusing customers and competing against themselves. Exhibit A is General Motors and their overlapping brands and vehicles. Virtually none of Apple's products compete with another in their lineup. Price, performance and features of each is targeted to a specific niche in the market. In general their products work as advertised with minimal intervention from the end user. The idea that someone needs to a proficient in computer software and hardware knowledge in order to be a 'good user' is ludicrous and a major reason why many good OS's continue to lag behind in adoption or died altogether. Computers intended for use by common 'civilians' (non-geeks) need to strive harder to being appliance simple in operation as they possibly can. A good example of this is the iPhone in the smart phone market. No other smartphone has been as widely adopted at this device. Yes the marketing machine of Apple bears some credit(or blame depending on your feelings....) but much is also due to its design and operation. If my 60 year old mother who is a serious technophobe can use one proficiently it must be somewhat intuitive and simple. I will modify a statement from a previous poster to say about TV's what they stated about PC's and users. Tell me it sounds logical. Who would want to buy a TV if the amount of time spent learning how to configure and manage a TV were expected of users? Remember most PC users are not professionals but average people that are not interested in understanding the inner workings of a device just how a apply its functions to be able to do their work.

"....Operating a television is something that you invest time in....Learning the skills to understand how to be safe on the cable and airwaves, how to configure and install DVD players, how not to destroy the remote control and so forth - these all are something that should be learned.. Learning HOW a television works and WHY it works, so that when a problem arises you can face it - this is part of being a television user... Most long time television users have at one point or another built their own television or upgraded a component.. Am I saying it's a virtue to have done this? No, of course not because there are just as many people who have never touched the television and just ordered from a vendor but I am saying that there are lessons to be learned from doing this..."

Oops forgot this link on last post.

Believe whichever figures you like. I say who cares use what you like.

www.computerworld.com/.../Windows_market_share_dives_again_as_Mac_nears_10_

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