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"I have not tested this yet, but I assume if you launch Setup from within your previous version of Windows, choose Custom, reboot, and then wipe out the previous Windows version during Setup, that that will work as well."

Isn't that the whole point of upgrade media?  Maybe I am misreading the statement, but that damn well better work!

Also, you think doing what you just described is "simple"?  Maybe doing the install twice thing takes more time, but in my mind, what you just described is nowhere near as simple as installing twice.

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Actually, it seems a lot simpler to me, then having to wait another hour while you ugrade 7 over itself. I'll be testing this morning, first to see if it simply still detects my OS and activates my key first, after booting and reformatting the drive. If not, I'll try this new method.

I see a new Apple ad for this "simple" process.

I was running the Windows 7 RC so I knew that I had to do a clean install. I dropped the OS partition along with the Vista Recovery partition that had been shipped with my Dell system, then created a new partition and installed Windows 7 64-bit from the DVD Upgrade media and activated it. The activation went through in a few seconds and did not give me any trouble.

This is ridiculous. It's upgrade media. It's not meant to be installed on a "virgin" PC. You get the same result by starting setup from your old OS and choosing a clean install, and then format from within setup.

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Now THIS work around I LIKE!

" It's not meant to be installed on a "virgin" PC."

Sometimes mistakes happen and partitions get deleted.  

Since OEM's don't ship restore media anymore, if the default restore partition gets deleted and there is no way to get the old version of Windows back on the computer and activated, a process like this is needed.

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And yet, Microsofties wonder why their sales are down.  MS is so f-ing worried about a few pirates who will never pay for their software and have found hacks around every attempt to prevent piracy that they are willing to piss off their actual paying customers.

And yet, they continue to wonder and make excuses while Apple's profits are at an all time high, and their valuation will surpass MS within two years.

Regards

Joe Dokes

@de Silentio "Since OEM's don't ship restore media anymore..."

Except Apple. They're an OEM (in the true sense of the acronym) and they ship restore media (DVDs) with every Mac they sell. Even the ones without optical drives. For those they have an ingenious way to host the media on a separate machine (with an optical drive) and netboot/install/reinstall the OS.

No workarounds, no registry hacks, and no serials/activation headaches.

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I stopped using Linux because I got tired of this sort of ugly kludge.  7 is an excellent OS and Microsoft is blowing it big time with an overly restrictive activation process.  Any XP or Vista user SHOULD be able to install an upgrade without command line or registry hacks

In particular, Microsoft's top priority should be to get the tens of millions of netbook owners to upgrade to 7. This is absolutely critical, and Ballmer's arrogance on the subject is mind-boggling.

"Ballmer's arrogance on the subject is mind-boggling."

Replace "arrogance" with "ignorance" and "the" with "any".

@Danieldecker: "Except Apple. They're an OEM (in the true sense of the acronym) and they ship restore media (DVDs) with every Mac they sell. Even the ones without optical drives."

Last time I checked Apple didn't ship restore discs for Windows.

" This is absolutely critical, and Ballmer's arrogance on the subject is mind-boggling."

What arrogance?  All the OEM's that were shipping Windows XP are now shipping at least Windows 7 Starter on the exact same models, and Starter is fine on the limited Intel 945 chipsets.  Aero is barely usable on the GMA 950.  Anybody looking for a netbook NOW should hold off until ION-equipped systems are widely available.  They ship with Home Premium, and Adobe Flash still isn't GPU-accelerated, making a netbooks primary use of internet media consumption an unfortunately bad experience right now.  When Flash ships in November with the GPU acceleration, ION users are going to be laughing.  Windows Media Player, the Zune software, and even Quicktime are hugely more responsive playing 720p video than Flash because of their better support of 2D acceleration (likely DirectDraw).

Also, with the ION, users will actually have a [admitted limited, but still existant] method of media production through the use of CUDA enabled software.  Programs like TMPGEnc, Badaboom, and VReveal allow users to transcode and clean up video for use on portable devices and in other formats with help from their ION GPU.  With a limited Atom netbook processor and only an Intel GMA 950, that's just not a feasible usage scenario.

@de Silentio

You did draw a gross generalization in regards to OEMs and restore media. Just pointing out your factual inaccuracies. Perhaps next time you should qualify your statements more clearly? Along the lines of "Microsoft's OEM partners..."

@spivonious...

You've obviously never attempted to recover a hard drive failure for people.

"Since OEM's don't ship restore media anymore,"

Dell (another OEM) has never actually shipped ME a pc with restore media or partitions. They typically ship an original OEM version of whatever OS and a resource cd with the drivers and other utilites.

So does this qualify as the first Windows 7 Debacle?

I think we do have to understand the people who are upgrading are ones who have the know-how to do it, or are letting someone else with the know-how to do it. Most people with XP will just buy a new computer with Win 7 on it, while I'm trying to help my grandma upgrade her Vista machine she got back in the spring.

As for activation software, Micrsofts really isn't that bad, use a code to install then later verify over the internet, key word it can be later. Some PC games require one to have an active internet connection to just install it, play it and so forth, with MS all you have to do is activate it once and then you can dissconnect it from the internet and it still works fine.

Pauls method is good for the hard drive failure problem, as once again this type of stuff is for people who should know what they are doing.

OK, I started out with WIn7 RC1 on my laptop. I bought the Win7 Business UPGRADE. I 110% wanted to do the format hd and start fresh. But from reading all the posts lastnight, I just did Wae's advice and did the windows.old thing. It worked, I copied my data back over to the new user profile and deleted the 7gig windows.old file.  

But now my laptop did have a 100mb partition on it too....so if that was the recovery partition from Dell, I could have swore when I loaded WIn7 RC1 on the pc, I deleted that partition too...  

Anyways, I'm up and running....I'm just curious as to this process just how "clean" of an install I really have.

OK, I started out with WIn7 RC1 on my laptop. I bought the Win7 Business UPGRADE. I 110% wanted to do the format hd and start fresh. But from reading all the posts lastnight, I just did Wae's advice and did the windows.old thing. It worked, I copied my data back over to the new user profile and deleted the 7gig windows.old file.  

But now my laptop did have a 100mb partition on it too....so if that was the recovery partition from Dell, I could have swore when I loaded WIn7 RC1 on the pc, I deleted that partition too...  

Anyways, I'm up and running....I'm just curious as to this process just how "clean" of an install I really have.

Sorry for the double post, the page bombed out on me.

I just installed Home Premium Upgrade from the RC. I booted to disc, formatted the drive and deleted everything off of it, including the RC installation. I then continued the clean install. I did skip the activation during setup, (not that it probably matters), but as soon as Home Premium was loaded for the first time, I went to activate it from within Windows with an Upgrade Key and it worked just fine.

I did NOT have to run setup again from within the new installation.

So, setup now does in fact somehow check to see if you have a previous OS installed even when you boot from disc and completly format your disc prior to installing. This is very nice, as it saves the extra step of upgrading twice.

However, It seems as Paul says this will not work if you are installing onto a hard drive that NEVER had Windows on it. In my case it did.

"I have not tested this yet, but I assume if you launch Setup from within your previous version of Windows, choose Custom, reboot, and then wipe out the previous Windows version during Setup, that that will work as well."

Paul, assuming by "wipe out" you mean format or delete the partition with the previous windows version on it...this doesn't work.  Setup, when launched from a previous version of windows, copies temporary files onto that system partition that it needs to use when it reboots, so it doesn't let you delete/format that partition (the option for "Advanced options" doesn't even show up in the "select partition" dialog unless you've booted from the DVD).  Moreover, the "select partition" dialog appears during the phase of setup when you're still booted into your previous version of windows, so you sure can't delete/format the partition that's currently running, lol.

I'm not updating anytime soon, but I'm curious if the glitches noted in the last day would be common for the general population? Or are those of us who visit this site considered to be early adopters?

I wonder how many users will, as Microsoft suggests, just buy a new PC?

Any thoughts?

All OEM's have an option, if buying direct, to get restore CDs. If you don't have CD's you can call the OEM and get the CD's sent to you, sometimes free sometimes not, but you can get them.

@chipwinter

Probably not. The average person will probably just do the upgrade. I tend to do the wipe thing simply because I'm a software developer, and I tend to have a lot of programs and utilities that I no longer use, and it's easier to just wipe the whole thing and start all over.

Why are there so many Apple fan boys on the SuperSite for WINDOWS?

It isn't a recovery partition it is something that Windows 7 Pro does I guess as I have the 100 MB partition to, it might be a type of swap file

For the writer who referred to OEM as an acronym:  It is not an acronym; it is an abbreviation.  You pronounce acronyms like you pronounce a word.  You spell out an abbreviation.  NASA is an acronym.  MLB is an abbreviation.

"MS is so f-ing worried about a few pirates... "

A few?

Bootleg copies of Windows are a much larger installed base on the desktop than Mac OS X and Linux combined.

So, realistically, Microsoft should be more concerned about piracy than they are about Mac and Linux. And, from my experience, they are.

@Danieldecker: "You did draw a gross generalization in regards to OEMs and restore media. Just pointing out your factual inaccuracies"

Well, since it was clear that I was responding to the topic about "virgin PC's" (as indicated in the quotation), I figured the qualification would be assumed.  Unless you think that Mac's are PC's, which would render the Mac commercial's factually innacurate (as they would falsely be labeling Microsoft based computers as "PC's")

In fact, it's my guess that you knew what I was talking about, but wanted to spew some "Apple is better than Microsoft because.." propaganda.

"Why are there so many Apple fan boys on the SuperSite for WINDOWS?"

Because Paul has an obsession with Apple that stretches beyond the rather narrow focus that the site's title would suggest. He baits, folks respond.

"Sometimes mistakes happen and partitions get deleted. Since OEM's don't ship restore media anymore, if the default restore partition gets deleted and there is no way to get the old version of Windows back on the computer and activated, a process like this is needed."

Agreed, di Sillento, 100%. Now, please tell that to "Waethorn", who spewed, "If your system doesn't come with discs for reinstalling the existing Windows installation, you should NOT delete the recovery partition whatsoever."

Attitudes like that leave no room for the very real possibility of a catastrophic hard drive failure (which I guess never happens in WaeWorld).

Paul, maybe just the rearm did the trick.

I was using windows 7 professional for two moth I did a clean install and last week I did a rearm beacause my 30 days had passed. yesterday I use my windows 7 professional upgrade key in this rearmed installation and I got validated without problem or without changing the registry.

What a confusing mess. I have three machines running RC including one netbook and not looking forward to this.

Should I do the upgrade from inside RC and then format the drive during the "upgrade" installation process? Or should I just boot to the disc, format the drive, and attempt Paul's method? I'd rather start with a clean drive than go through any actual upgrade process. I also have two OEM copies of Vista HP and one OEM of XP if I need it.

All I can say is thank god for WHS backups so I can always restore back to RC quickly if necessary.

My upgrade media looks like it will get here today, I appreciate the info great posts.

And the new Apple ad ("Broken Promises") is now spot on!

Like shooting fish in a barrel.

palavering

"You pronounce acronyms like you pronounce a word."

Thank you.

Of course, the question of whether something is an abbreviation or an acronym isn't quite that clear cut.

There are some abbreviations that are pronounced by some groups and not others. For example DASD (Direct Access Storage Device) which is an old IBMism for a hard drive is pronounced as Daz-Dee inside IBM but treated as an abbreviation almost everywhere else as is the IBMism SNA, pronounced Snah inside and Ess En Ay everywhere else.

There's also the question of whether something is an acronym if the word is made of more than just the first letter such as the classic example of RAdio Detection And Ranging which should properly be abbreviated  RDAR or RDR and not the pronouncable acronym RADAR.

We now return to the only very slightly less pedantic world of install corner case procedures.

Way OT

OK. One more brief aside and warning to people trying to be clever about making their product/company/technology names a pronouncable acronym.

The Small Computer System Interface group (SCSI) expected people to pronounce their interface as "Sexy". When it turned out virtually everyone pronounced it "Scuzzy" they actually went out and did an ad campaign trying to get people to call it the "sexy interface"

Sorry, couldn't resist that aside into history.

@derekpress: I'd recommend launching setup from within RC and choose a "Custom Install".  It will move your old data into windows.old, and give you an otherwise clean install.  You can delete windows.old with no problem.  Since you've already got an OS loaded, this is the supported method, and I'd stick with it.

...my $.02

Why does MS make it hard on the legitimate users? Why so many hoops to jump through to get their OS to install?

I don't get it.

I witnessed several people running 7 at a coffee shop in NYC yesterday. Not one of them said they paid for it (found a "key" online). I bet that was easier than all of this mess to install the upgrade version on a new machine.

@mikegalos - "For example DASD (Direct Access Storage Device) which is an old IBMism for a hard drive is pronounced as Daz-Dee inside IBM but treated as an abbreviation almost everywhere else"

Sorry...you are completely wrong, again. Daz-Dee is used quite a bit in the storage industry...not just inside IBM as you state. I know people at HDS, Brocade, Cisco, EMC, and other industry biggies, along with peers in various shops around the country that all use the acronym. You really shouldn't post about things as if you know what you are saying when you clearly know very little about it. It makes you look arrogant. Oh, yeah....

--tayme

"If you don't have CD's you can call the OEM and get the CD's sent to you, sometimes free sometimes not, but you can get them."

"Agreed, di Sillento, 100%. Now, please tell that to "Waethorn", who spewed, "If your system doesn't come with discs for reinstalling the existing Windows installation, you should NOT delete the recovery partition whatsoever."

"Attitudes like that leave no room for the very real possibility of a catastrophic hard drive failure (which I guess never happens in WaeWorld)."

On an old machine that is out of support, sometimes it isn't possible to order replacement discs.  HP and Dell usually discontinue the option to order recovery discs 3-4 years after that model is released.  Thankfully, an HP PR rep recommended a website called www.restoredisks.com for a client of mine that had that exact same problem, and they carry a wide assortment of brands and models.  I only mention that because it's a PITA to have to order them from the OEM, even if you still can.  As much as a PITA as you, losta.

@Delmont, all:

The 100MB partition is the hidden bootloader system partition that I mentioned before.  When you do a clean install, Windows 7 Setup will create that.  OEM's will sometimes have their own hidden partitions too.  Windows 7 Setup won't create that partition unless there is room on the drive that isn't allocated to another partition (ie. a blank drive, or unallocated space after any OEM partitions).  If you already have the drive formatted, it will just put the bootloader on the first primary partition like Windows Vista and XP does.

beaker

"I witnessed several people running 7 at a coffee shop in NYC yesterday. Not one of them said they paid for it (found a "key" online). "

And as a "legitimate user" did you complain to them about their theft making life harder for you?

If not, you're doing the same thing as a homeowner complaining about the cost of locks while chatting with the thieves who burgle his neighborhood.

tayme

Interesting that an IBM mainframe phrase like DASD has caught on in some circles. It was disappearing even from IBM by the late 1980s as tape drives were disappearing from all but niche use.

This I saw on another forum and that was interesting.....it speaks to the fact that MS is so big they are just not coordinated any more, and you would think they would have it nailed when it came to this launch.

"Yesterday when I went to the Windows 7 web-site they had tweets on the page from people saying negative things about Windows 7 and the main featured quote on the page was a review saying Windows 7 was not horrible to use like other versions of windows, and the graphic looked like an ad for sim city. I see they finally updated that site today. The site was jumbled and confusing. Today I went to try to buy the student version of Windows 7 for my mac. The site sends you to win741.com run by a company called digital river. They let you download Windows 7 after entering your school e-mail address. The site--on the public day of release--still says you can pre-order Windows 7 and it's expected to be available October 21 (it said that today Oct 22). Microsoft is not even communicating the fact that this OS is available and they don't seem too interested in making it easy to buy. Not only that, before you buy you are asked whether you want Windows 7 32 bit or 64 bit. There's a link you click if you don't know which one you want. It takes you to a page that talks about 32 bit vs 64 bit versions of Windows Vista! It amazes me that a company as huge as Microsoft can't sell its flagship product in an online store it runs that is semi-coherent."

The term DASD was in some of my old Netware manuals I found and threw away recently.  

Anyone that has been a System Administrator for a while knows what the term means.  Disk/s physically attached to the server, opposed to disk on a NAS/SAN.

@mikegalos - "...tape drives were disappearing from all but niche use."

Wrong again. Tape drives, both physical and virtual are still widely used today. Maybe you were referring to the use as primary storage medium and not back-up or retention media.

But, yes...DASD as an acronym was originated by IBM mainframers, but is still widely used today...even by its competitors in the storage business. It is incorrectly used in most cases, because it is not often that it is direct attached anymore...but rather via a fibre channel or ficon switches, and even iSCSI.

--tayme

To quote the IBM Jargon Dictionary (10th Edition)

bluespeak n. The language and jargon used by IBMers, especially when the jargon is different from that used by those employed by other companies. For example, DASD or file (others use disk).

DASD (dazz-dee) v. To place on a computer disk

(Direct Access Storage Device), as in: “Please

DASD that report when you’ve written it”. DASD

storage implies storage on a disk connected to a

large mainframe computer, rather than on the hard

or soft disks in a Personal Computer. It also

implies magnetic storage; an optical disk would not

be described as DASD.

tayme

longterm, secondary backup storage devices ARE a niche use (hence my qualifier rather than saying tape has disappeared)

@rrode:

Win741 is a revamp of the "Ultimate Steal" website.  In Canada, it is still known as www.theultimatesteal.ca , where students can get a cheap copy of Office Ultimate for $64CDN, but also Windows 7 Professional Upgrade (formerly Windows Vista Home Premium) for $40CDN, and the Office Language Pack for $12CDN.

@mikegalos - Interesting info...thanks for sharing, seriously. I don't remember seeing DASD used as a verb before. It is generally used as a noun these days.

--tayme

Linus Torvalds loves Win 7 now we need to bust Jobs with his copy.

bink.nu/.../linus-is-happy-with-windows-7.aspx

Argggg!  Well a true clean install did NOT work for me.  Not really surprised so I'm not sure what Paul considers a true "virgin unused PC".

My laptop had Vista - I ran my Windows 7 upgrade media, went to advanced settings and it did not give me an option to format the drive.  I'm assuming that just allows you to select a partition to install Windows on should you have more than one.  So this is really not a true "clean install" as far as I can tell.

Instead of going that route I used killdisk to wipe my drive and then tried installing via the upgrade windows 7 disk.  No dice.  It will not accept my product key as I'm assuming it wants they key for a full version.  

What a pain in the ***.  Should have just purchased the full license as I hate doing upgrades!!!!

@Wae my point with posting that comment goes with this blog post.  There is confusion or lack of clarification around this issue of the upgrade media and the method.

That post showed further confusion like the wrong date, and taking you to a Vista page to help you determine if you wanted 32bit or 64bit.

All of these things make the launch look half baked.  Or that Microsoft is so big that they cant coordinate a launch of their flagship product.

Follow that with practically ZERO news or ads around WinMO and Zune HD.

tayme

The IBM Jargon dictionary is a fascinating document. IBM's legendary Mike Cowlishaw maintained it for years as a side project back when he was at IBM's Hursley lab. (He also developed the REXX programming language as a side project. He's one of the few computer science treasures that IBM managed to have sense enough to keep from their old days)

There's a PDF of the 10th Edition (from 1990) available at www.comlay.net/ibmjarg.pdf

(Feel free to contrast that with Eric Raymond who took the community created internet jargon dictionary, slapped his name on it and sold it as a commercial book with only an appendix to credit that he didn't actually write it.)

rr0de

"Follow that with practically ZERO news or ads around WinMO and Zune HD."

Well, it wouldn't exactly make a lot of sense to make a major announcement about other product lines during a news cycle that's going to be "All Windows 7, all the time", would it?

There was some news about Windows Mobile and Zune that MJ Foley talks about on her blog at blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft if you're desperate to change the subject away from the huge Windows 7 launch success (You know, like having more pre-orders of Windows 7 at Amazon UK than they had for the last Harry Potter book)

" it wouldn't exactly make a lot of sense to make a major announcement about other product lines during a news cycle that's going to be "All Windows 7, all the time", would it?"

When has Apple announced the release of a new OS X version in tandem with new computerss?  Or the iPhone for that matter?

@Tayme:  Are you thinking of Direct ATTACHED Storage Device?  Because the way you use it seems to indicate that you are.

But I could be wrong, whenever I see it is just DAS, referring to Direct Attached Storage

@de Silentio

"...knew what I was talking about, but wanted to spew some 'Apple is better than Microsoft because..'"

So now Microsoft is an OEM? I suspect your true intent was that I wanted to spew some "Apple is better than Dell/HP/Acer/insert_actual_OEM_name_here because" propaganda. Words are all we have on a forum, choose yours more wisely, say what you mean, and don't run the fool's errand of inferences and assumptions.

@de Silentio - I think that the terms have somewhat merged in the last 10 years. So yes...I am refering to it as you describe...and even back in the old days, the terms were interchanged where I was at the time. Seriously, the definition that mikegalos provided above, using it as a verb is new to me.

So, my comment to mikegalos regarding him being wrong, may have been out of line...since we both understood the term differently. Neither being wrong.

I am going to take a look at that pdf that was linked to. Sounds like an interesting read.

--tayme

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"I don't remember seeing DASD used as a verb before. It is generally used as a noun these days."

Out of curiosity, any beemers on here who can say if DASD is still used as a verb inside IBM?

I took a system that had Vista on it and did an in place upgrade to 7 RC. I had my data backed up on a seperate drive and figured id give it a shot and worst case id have to do a clean install. It worked.

So Oct 22 comes along and I have my copy of Pro to do a final install.

I ran setup from 7 RTM. Did the custom and put a "clean" install on my prmiary partition. I had already backed up data to another disk.

It did the upgrade and put all the old stuff in the Windows.old folder.

So when the time comes along for one reason or another that I have to do a fresh install on a blank drive ill be happy I don't have to do any kind of dual install weather its Vista > 7 or 7 > 7.

Most people are going to do an in-place or a migration upgrade.

@danieldecker: "No workarounds, no registry hacks, and no serials/activation headaches.

Words are all we have on a forum, choose yours more wisely, say what you mean, and don't run the fool's errand of inferences and assumptions."

Ultimately, whose problem is it that one has to go through the headaches that you mention, the PC OEM's or Microsoft's?  I would say Microsoft's.  I wouldn't have regarded your post as propagandic is you had not thrown in the last bit of the Microsoft upgrade procedure.  All of what you mention are not PC OEM problems at all, rather they are Microsoft problems.  And Microsoft problems are what we are talking about.

Words may be all we have, but any word or combination thereof is heavily laden with assumptions and inferences, rather they be written or spoken.  True, some assumptions and inferences are easier to catch on to or are even inherent in the word or statement, but they are there nonetheless.

In my original statement, was it not clear that I was talking about PC's or can you honestly say that you thought I might be talking about OEM's in general?

tayme

"Sounds like an interesting read."

It is if you remember the days when an ABEND would trigger an APAR.

@Myself:

"Words may be all we have, but any word or combination thereof is heavily laden with assumptions and inferences, rather they be written or spoken."

Should read:

Words may be all we have, but any word or combination thereof is heavily laden with assumptions and inferences, WHETHER the WORDS be written or spoken.

Perhpas I should proof read before I send the post instead of after.

"when an ABEND would trigger an APAR."

ABEND in the knees can trigger APAR, but ABEND in the club will most likely trigger ABOGEY

"It is if you remember the days when an ABEND would trigger an APAR."

That I do...I am married to a former JCL specialist.

--tayme

@de Silentio

Fair enough my friend. Regardless of any propaganda you think I was trying to spew, the point was more to illustrate that the process is onerous because it is engineered to be, by Microsoft. That situation is exacerbated by OEMs that don't *automatically* include restore discs with new purchases. Presumably the end user has paid for the software on the new, let's say, computer (as to avoid the lame PC/Mac distinction) and has a right to original media.

Microsoft seems fairly adept at making their OEMs do most anything, they should insist that the OEMs include the media for Windows, at least.

And totally off topic, thanks for keeping it civil. I've enjoyed our little trip down semantics lane ;-)

@mikegalos - When I worked for Dillard's, Inc. we referred to DASD in relation to the mainframe. Many of the old-timers still used it to refer to fixed disk (HDDs) in relation to the local machine. Most of us "kids" used the modern lingo.

@tayme I know some rather young JCL specialists.

@de Silentio I try to proof read at least twice and sometimes I still screw it up. Pobody's Nerfect.

@redunion1940: May be you should consider upgrading your grand mother to ubuntu rather than 7!!??

<sarcastically>

"I am married to a former JCL specialist"

No. No. Please. No.

//  DD  *

Was that enough of the right incantation to keep the JCL away?

Sorry. Old JCL PTSD kicking in.

lotsamystuff!!! Well well well... the idiot is comming back...

@danieldecker:

I never get to throw around "lotsa" type terms such as "spew" and "propaganda" so I thought I would jump at the opportunity, rather I was out of line or not (which I think I was, honestly).

I aggree with your final assessment of the situation.  I also enjoyed the mental excercise, well played on your part.  Have a nice weekend.

How many Apple engineers it takes to change a burned light bulb?

At Apple it does not change the burned light bulbs because engineers are much too busy to try to understand how to implement the protected memory.

"True, some assumptions and inferences are easier to catch on to or are even inherent in the word or statement, but they are there nonetheless."

Just a thought: if an assumption is inherent in a word, is there anything to assume about that word?  It would seem that inherency negates the possibility that there is anything to assume.  So, is it not false that words can have inherent assumptions?

hey EricoF3,

How many Microsoft engineers does it take to change a burnt out light bulb?

Well, since no one showed them how to change a light bulb, Microsoft just makes darkness the new standard.

@de Silentio

What if we assume inferences and infer assumptions?

An assumption inherent in a word would be its generally accepted definition, I think. Therefore, if you wish to change that assumption, you must infer otherwise :-p

panache1023 said:

hey EricoF3,

"How many Microsoft engineers does it take to change a burnt out light bulb?

Well, since no one showed them how to change a light bulb, Microsoft just makes darkness the new standard."

LOL - I must admit your joke is funny LOL

panache1023  said: "How many Microsoft engineers does it take to change a burnt out light bulb?

Well, since no one showed them how to change a light bulb, Microsoft just makes darkness the new standard."

It is funny how you attribuate things to Microsoft that is done by Apple all the time LOL!!!

@tayme:

Using nouns as verbs dates back a long time.

I'm often caught using the term "software" as a verb, as in "Hey, can you software this new machine for Mrs. Jones' order?".

Of course, using verbs as nouns is also equally accepted.  Disposable cloths are often referred to as "wipes" even though it's also the term for the action that you use it with.  In more grammatically correct terminology, they should really be called "wipers".

Not mine, but:

"Q: How many Apple programmers does it take to change a lightbulb?

A: Only one, but why bother ? Your light socket will just be obsolete in six months anyway.

Q: How many Apple and PC fanboys does it take to change a lightbulb?

A: An infinite number: nothing useful gets done while they're arguing. Finally a disgusted generic computer user (who will use any type that is in front of him) gets up and changes the bulb, elbowing the participants aside. The size of the crowd arguing seems to be a function of time, although whether or not the function is exponential is not known.

How many Mac owners does it take to screw in a light bulb?

1. Just one, but the new light bulbs aren't compatible with the old sockets, so he has to buy a complete upgrade or a new light.

4. Two: One to ask the socket to eject the old bulb, and one to insert the new one.

5. Three: One to change the bulb, one to copyright the method for changing the bulb, and one to call in the lawyers on anyone who infringes on the "look and feel" of the bulb changing method."

WaeWrong, if you're going to quote me, at least have the common sense* to quote me in context. You put my response to di Sillento underneath a completely unrelated paragraph. Nice try.

So let's try again. di Silento said "Since OEM's don't ship restore media anymore, if the default restore partition gets deleted and there is no way to get the old version of Windows back on the computer and activated, a process like this is needed."

I agree with that completely. You, WaeWrong, said "If your system doesn't come with discs for reinstalling the existing Windows installation, you should NOT delete the recovery partition whatsoever."

So respond to the real issue, WaeWrong, what do you do in the case of a catastrophic hard drive failure when the old discs are not available? I agree with you that "it's a PITA to have to order them from the OEM, even if you still can." So what do you do if you can't?

* Something I know you're short of.

@lotsamystuff: Nobody read you... so get out...

dipshtadmin,

I bow down to your jokes...i know they arent yours, but they have mine and ericof3 topped.

Apple engineers don't need to change lightbulbs.....

They can download one of the hundred Flashlight apps on their iPhone.

:)

panache1023  said:

dipshtadmin,

I bow down to your jokes...i know they arent yours, but they have mine and ericof3 topped.

LOL Right!

Lots of giddiness on this Friday evening! It's refreshing here!

--tayme

yoshipod  said: "Apple engineers don't need to change lightbulbs.....

They can download one of the hundred Flashlight apps on their iPhone."

Baaaa!! Nop, Apple engeneers don't use IPhone!! They use WinMo... They are engeneers ;) don't forget!!!

Do you know why engeneers have a ring on their small finger?

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"what do you do in the case of a catastrophic hard drive failure when the old discs are not available? I agree with you that "it's a PITA to have to order them from the OEM, even if you still can." So what do you do if you can't?"

Learn to read, a$$h0le:  I already say that an HP PR rep had told a customer of mine to order them from http://www.restoredisks.com when they couldn't order install discs anymore after their computer was discontinued and out of support, and they complained to corporate.  They also mentioned another site, but it didn't have nearly the same amount of supported machines.  If an HP rep suggests the site, then I don't see anything bad there.  Restore discs cost about ~$25 on average, and that includes shipping (even to Canada).

Paul Thurrott has the answer to the question of "Can I do a Clean Install Windows 7 with Upgrade Media?"...

Just to be clear....

I said the following:

a)  I recommend that users NOT delete their original OEM recovery partition, ESPECIALLY if they didn't get install discs from their OEM.  Even if they have install discs, it's faster to recover from the recovery partition should they need to reinstall the upgrade.

b)  If they didn't get recovery or install discs from their OEM, they should order them for the sake of having a backup copy, in case their hard drive has a physical failure wherein they can't access their recovery partition.  Well kept optical discs will probably last longer than their hard drive.  If they didn't get discs right away, they should order them ASAP because many OEM's discontinue the option of ordering recovery discs as they do with any replacement part after a set amount of time (Dell and HP are about 3 years only).  Many OEM's will ship discs for free within the warranty period.  Some don't, but most charge well less than $40 for a disc set.

c)  If the opportunity to order recovery discs from their OEM has come and gone, they should check on http://www.restoredisks.com and see if they carry their make and model.  An HP corporate guy suggested it, and they work, and the cost is about the same as ordering them from the OEM.  If the make and model of computer isn't listed, they have a contact email address for inquiring about additional models.

It looks like the reports of day long Windows 7 installs are rolling in. Windows 7 FAIL.

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My $399 ACER Vista laptop included 2 blank discs to create a restore disc. I was prompted to do so at the end of set up. I guess it's cheaper to make the buyer create his own, rather than providing one, but they did provide the blank discs.

Wae, and that 100MB partition needs to stay for Win7 to run?

@Waethorn

Thanks for posting that link http://www.restoredisks.com

I am sure that will come in handy when required. It is the case that computer sellers do not provide system recovery disks anymore due to the built-in hdd recovery partition and its true that if that gets blown away then you need a set of backup restore disks.

I bought two HP machines this summer, and both came with a program installed that allowed the user to create restore disks. Check that before you blow everything away.

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Weethorn said "All the OEM's that were shipping Windows XP are now shipping at least Windows 7 Starter on the exact same models, and Starter is fine on the limited Intel 945 chipsets.  Aero is barely usable on the GMA 950."

Wndows 7 Starter is a patheticly limited OS on ANY hardware. Paul Thurrott can not hold his nose enough to recommend it.  7 Starter will really annoy users, who will be asked to spend half as much as they paid for their netbook to upgrade to an actual OS.

Of course, you completely ignored my point, which is that Microsoft should be trying to get tens of millions of EXISTING netbook users to migrate to 7 rather than looking at alternatives.

Even if it were true that Aero can't run on netbook hardware (it is quite arguable,VMWare Fusion has even gotten Aero working under virtualization, which is a much bigger peformance problem), whose fault is that? Similar systems run beautifully (Compiz Fusion in Linux,  Mac OS X running Spaces with many apps open) on netbook hardware with the GMA950.  There is simply NO excuse for delivering a crippled OS on netbooks.

Check this amusing video. People lining up to get Windows 7. All 6 of them! Microsoft, pathetic as ever.

www.youtube.com/watch

What?! No post about Microsoft's financials? A down quarter and nothing mentioned here? Told by Microsoft not to mention it?

No one cares, robertsjoe.

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"A down quarter and nothing mentioned here? "

A down quarter, but they still made money.

"It looks like the reports of day long Windows 7 installs are rolling in."

20 minutes, plus installing some apps

BTW, LOTS of complaints here about SL, many going back to Leopard.  Hmm.

www.mac-forums.com/.../164476-share-your-snow-leopard-experience-concerns.html

Don't feed the trolls before or after midnight.

Windows 7 set record    for 1 day sales ar Amazon surpassing the last Harry Potter book.

I'm sure it'll pass Leopard by Monday.

@ Dipsh t Admin

You should read your link before posting.  Questions are about whether to buy the family pack or not and how to place your order.  

Snow Leopard went super on our 4 Intel Macs.  

Contrast that with the 5 hours trying to install Windows 7 with the student download.  Silly error messages and then it would not install over XP.  

Upon downloading from the Microsoft Student Website, I get 3 files. These are:

Win7-P-Retail-en-us-x64.exe

setup1.box

setup2.box

I double click on "Win7-P-Retail-en-us-x64.exe" and I get the message "Unloading the Box". Once the status bar reaches the end, I get the following error:

"We are unable to create or save new files in the folder in which this application was downloaded. Please check the folder properties to make sure that you have security permission on the folder to write files and that the folder is not read-only".

I click on OK. Regardless of the fact that I received the above error message, I now have a new folder called "expandedSetup".

Within this folder are lots and lots of complicated looking files, stored within many other sub folders.

However, in the root of "expandedSetup" is a file called "setup.exe". I double click on this file, and I get the following error message:

"The version of this file is not compatible with the version of Windows you're running.

Apparently refunds are now being offered.  I am getting one.

www.sevenforums.com/.../31093-digital-river-refund.html

Heavens to Murgatroyd! This regedit doohacky is totally awesome!

I'm surprised that Microsoft would let Thurrott post this stuff without yelling at him.

www.youtube.com/watch

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I was so hoping to have better news to share, but with all the conflicting reports and my own troubles testing this while on the road, it's been a messy 24 hours. However, after staying up late last night and working through a few different scenarios

So, by Paul's own admission, a Windows 7 installation experience includes "a messy 24 hours" ,"being up all night" --and a registry hack.

Heh, heh, what was that song? Oh yeah, "It's the final countdown....."

Windows 7 set a record all right... zero to registry hack in under 24 hours!

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